Names of sons of Ali, Hasan and Hussain

[hanbali]

So this is a debate challenge to shia on the matter of names of sons of ali, hasan, hussain. Basically the shia claim that abu bakr, umar and usman was common name at that time. This is false since abu bakr wasn't a common kunyah at the time. It literally means father of baby camel. I don't know of any companion who has a kunyah abu bakr. Later after the death of abu bakr, the kunyah became famous, that's why we see that tabieen having kunyah abu bakr.

Edited December 1, 2023 by hanbali

[hanbali]

Still no one for debate?

[Ashvazdanghe]

18 hours ago, hanbali said:

Basically the shia claim that abu bakr, umar and usman was common name at that time. This is false since abu bakr wasn't a common kunyah at the time. It literally means father of baby camel. I don't know of any companion who has a kunyah abu bakr. Later after the death of abu bakr, the kunyah became famous, that's why we see that tabieen having kunyah abu bakr.

Salam , as usual you have came through relying on anti Shia propaganda  which is based on your ignorance about Your Sahaba although you have claimed that yoou know them . 

there is an example of existence of Kunya  of Abubakr before Islam   other than first Sunni caliph which sunni historians have used another Kunya for other people with Kunya of Abubakr by changing calling of it likewise Bakra  or using their alternative Kunya for them  in order to make it exclusive for first Sunni caliph  which it has been followed in similar fashion for second & third caliph which Umayr has been driven from Umar  but on the other hand name sof "Ali, hasan, hussain" have been uncommon between them which there is famous narration about naming Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) based on names of sons of prophet Harun (عليه السلام) as Shibr & Shubair in Hebrew which have been changed to Hasan & Hussain by order of Allah & interpretation of these names from Hebrew to Arabic  by revelation it to prophet Muhammad (pbu) .

Abū Bakra al-Thaqafī (Arabic: أبو بكرة الثقفي) better known as Nufayʿ ibn al-Ḥārith (Arabic: نُـفَـيْـع ابْـن الْـحَـارِث) was the half brother of Nafi ibn al-Harith.^[1] He is known for his dispute with another Islamic general al-Mughira ibn Shu'ba during a military expedition.

Other sources describe him as the uterine brother of Ziyad ibn Abihi.^[2]

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakra_al-Thaqafi}

• Umar ibn Harith (Amr ibn Hurayth)

Quote

Amr was the son of Hurayth ibn Amr ibn Uthman ibn Abd Allah ibn Umar ibn Makhzum and belonged to the Banu Makhzum clan of the Quraysh tribe of Mecca.^[1] 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amr_ibn_Hurayth

Umayr ibn Wahb

Quote

ʿUmayr ibn Wahb (Arabic: عمير بن وهب) was one of the Companions of the Prophet, and one of the enemies of the Muslim at that time before he converted to Islam. He converted to Islam after the Battle of Badr.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayr_ibn_Wahb

 

Umayr ibn Sa'd al-Ansari

ʿUmayr ibn Saʿd al-Anṣārī (Arabic: عمير بن سعد الأنصاري) was a companion of Muhammad. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayr_ibn_Sa'd_al-Ansari

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sahabah

The name of Abu Bakr at the Age of Ignorance was "Abd al-Ka'ba" and after Islam, the Prophet (s) called him Abd Allah.^[2] His father was Abu Quhafa Uthman (d. 14/635-6) and his mother was Umm al-Khayr Salma, Bint Sakhr b. 'Amr b. Ka'b, both of whom were from the clan of Taym and were a relative of the Prophet (s) through Marra, their fifth generation forefather.^[3]

 

• Teknonyms

1. Abu Bakr: In some sources, there are some poems quoted from some infidels slandering Abu Bakr, in one of which Bakr is mentioned as the son of Abu Bakr,^[4] but in none of the references where the names of the children of Abu Bakr have been listed, no one named Bakr has been mentioned. His opponents such as Abu Sufyan have altered Abu Bakr ("Bakr" meaning as "young camel") to "Abu Fusayl" ("Fusayl" meaning "baby camel kept from his mother's milk") in order to mock him.^[5]

^{https://en.wikishia.net/view/Abu_Bakr}

18 hours ago, hanbali said:

usman was common name at that time.

Salam this is a famous example about being a common name before Islam

Abū Sāʾib, ʿUthmān b. Mazʿūn b. Ḥabīb b. Wahb al-Jumaḥī (Arabic: عثمان بن مظعون بن حبيب بن وهب الجمحي) (d. 2/623), one of Sahaba and foster brother of the Prophet (s). He was among the first Muslims. He, his brother, 'Abd Allah b. Maz'un, and his son, Sa'ib, were present in Migration to Abyssinia, Migration to Medina, and the Battle of Badr. 'Uthman was a pious man and a close companion of prophet Muhammad (s) and Imam Ali (a). Imam Ali (a) named one of his sons after him.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Uthman_b._Maz'un

 

BIOGRAPHY

He was married to Khawlah bint Hakim, both being two of the earliest converts to Islam. According to Ibn Ishaq, he led a group of Muslims to Abyssinia in the first migration which some of the early Muslims undertook to escape persecution in Mecca.

Quote

There is a narration that, out of religious devotion, Uthman bin Madh'oon decided to dedicate himself from prayer and take a vow of chastity from his wife. His wife spoke to the Prophet Muhammad about this, and the Prophet gently reminded Uthman that he himself, as the Prophet, also had a family life, and that Uthman had a responsibility to his family and should not adopt monasticism as a form of religious practice.

He died in the 3rd year after the hijrah and was either the first companion or the first Muhajir (immigrant to Medina) to be buried in the cemetery of Baqi' (Jannat al-Baqi) in Medina.

https://peoplepill.com/i/uthman-bin-mazoon

Uthman ibn Abi al-As al-Thaqafi (Arabic: عثمان بن أبي العاص, romanized: ʿUthmān ibn Abī al-ʿĀṣ; died 671 or 675) was a companion of the Islamic prophet Muhammad from the tribe of Banu Thaqif

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman_ibn_Abi_al-As

ʿUthmān ibn Ḥunayf (Arabic: عثمان بن حنيف) was one of the companions of Muhammad (Sm). According to Shia belief, he did not give allegiance to Abu Bakr, until Ali supposedly did so.^[1] He narrated the Hadith of the blind man.^[2]

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman_ibn_Hunayf}

Uthman ibn Maz'un

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman_ibn_Maz'un

ʿUthmān ibn Ṭalḥa (Arabic: عثمان بن طلحة) was a companion of the Islamic prophet Muhammad.^[1] His father was Talha ibn Abdullah (Abi Talha) al-‘Abdari who was killed by Zubayr ibn al-Awwam in the Battle of Uhud.^[2] Before the conquest of Mecca, he was the keeper of the key to the Kaaba. He was therefore known as the "Sadin of Mecca".^[3] Since Muhammad handed the key to the Kaaba over to him, descendants of Muhammad's companions have been inheriting the key and the title Sadin of the Kaaba to this day.^[4]

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uthman_ibn_Talha}

^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sahabah}

[hanbali]

The kunya of that companion is abu bakra not abu bakr. So my point still stands that abu bakr was a rare kunya. As for uthman, it was a common name of arabs. No problem

[Inspector]

23 hours ago, hanbali said:

So this is a debate challenge to shia on the matter of names of sons of ali, hasan, hussain. Basically the shia claim that abu bakr, umar and usman was common name at that time.

قُلْ لَا أَسْأَلُكُمْ عَلَيْهِ أَجْرًا إِلَّا الْمَوَدَّةَ فِي الْقُرْبَى

This verse is revealed for whom? 

If you know that, it is useless to debate on the subject what Imam Ali (عليه السلام) or Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) or Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) named their sons. If you think they named their sons in love of Abu Bakar or Umar or Uthman, this is their yet another merit. 

Question here is that why Abu Bakar, Umar & Uthman nor their sons and nor their grandsons, named their sons the names of Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain عليهم السلام? 

One of the expression of "mawaddah" is that people give these blessed names to their children. What treachery was filled in the hearts of three caliphs & their offspring that they never gave their sons, daughters or even grandsons & grand-daughters the names of Ahlul Kisa? 

 

[hanbali]

13 minutes ago, Inspector said:

Question here is that why Abu Bakar, Umar & Uthman nor their sons and nor their grandsons, named their sons the names of Ali, Fatima, Hassan, Hussain عليهم السلام? 

One of the expression of "mawaddah" is that people give these blessed names to their children. What treachery was filled in the hearts of three caliphs & their offspring that they never gave their sons, daughters or even grandsons & grand-daughters the names of Ahlul Kisa? 

Naming one's children with names of particular people is sign of love, not naming one's children with names of particular people is not a sign of hatred. Ali and all the 10 imams never named their children ammar, miqdad, salman, abu dhar, jabir, abu saeed, malik, mesum, hujr. So by your stupid logic, ahlul bayt didn't love these people.

Edited December 2, 2023 by hanbali

[Inspector]

1 hour ago, hanbali said:

Naming one's children with names of particular people is sign of love, not naming one's children with names of particular people is not a sign of hatred

With your stupid logic and blindness of the verse of mawaddah, you and your likes are always failed to counter this question. 

Why Abu Bakr, Umar & Uthman never gave their kids the names of Ahlul Kisa? 

I haven't used the word hatred, rather said this;

1 hour ago, Inspector said:

What treachery was filled in the hearts of three caliphs & their offspring

Help yourself understanding the meaning of this word. They failed to reciprocate the good gesture showed by the Ahlul Kisa عليهم السلام

It is either their treachery or either their jealousy from the Ahlul Kisa. And Ahlul Kisa are the people from whom people were jealous;

أم يحسدون الناس على ما آتاهم الله من فضله فقد آتينا آل إبراهيم الكتاب والحكمة وآتيناهم ملكا عظيما

4:54) Or do they envy the people for what Allah has given them of His grace? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim's children the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom

1 hour ago, hanbali said:

Ali and all the 10 imams never named their children ammar, miqdad, salman, abu dhar, jabir, abu saeed, malik, mesum, hujr.

Again stupidity at its peak lol. 

The verse of mawaddah never came for Salman, Miqdad etc. It is the whole Muslim Ummah who is supposed to express their love for Ahlul Kisa. Yet we see your bearers of "Adalah", killed them, behead them, oppressed them etc. 

[Inspector]

18 hours ago, hanbali said:

Still no one for debate?

At the moment, your debate idea turned into a "bone in your throat". 

You have not foot to stand on boy! Get some sleep and make some ground first to stand on lol.

[hanbali]

1 hour ago, Inspector said:

With your stupid logic and blindness of the verse of mawaddah, you and your likes are always failed to counter this question. 

Why Abu Bakr, Umar & Uthman never gave their kids the names of Ahlul Kisa? 

I haven't used the word hatred, rather said this;

The answer to this is in the my answer itself. Not naming someone in the name of ahlul bayt doesn't mean that you don't love them.

1 hour ago, Inspector said:

Again stupidity at its peak lol. 

The verse of mawaddah never came for Salman, Miqdad etc. It is the whole Muslim Ummah who is supposed to express their love for Ahlul Kisa. Yet we see your bearers of "Adalah", killed them, behead them, oppressed them etc. 

Doesn't matter. The point is ali didn't name his sons ammar or miqdad. That doesn't mean he didn't loved them. Same is with the 3 caliphs. Repeat after me. Ali named his sons abu bakr,umar,  usman and didn't name his sons ammar, miqdad, salman, abu dharr. That's enough to destroy your entire religion. If ali can love ammar and miqdad without naming his sons after their name, abu abkr, umar and uthman can love ali without naming their sons after him. Now morons like you can blabber all the nonsense as you like since you won't get any attention from me now.

Edited December 2, 2023 by hanbali

[Inspector]

24 minutes ago, hanbali said:

Doesn't matter. The point is ali didn't name his sons ammar or miqdad. That doesn't mean he didn't loved them.

lol, Ahlul Kisa (عليه السلام) were not required to show their love for anyone while everyone from the Ummah is required to show his love for Ahlul Kisa. 

Lack of comprehension is another problem of yours 

27 minutes ago, hanbali said:

If you are still not convinced by this simple answer then go to the grocery store and feed your mum with some almonds

If your mother sits in a grocery store that doesn't mean everyone's mother sitting there. You can expect some harsh treatment from me now. 

30 minutes ago, hanbali said:

so that she didn't birth an ignorant fool like you again.

The lovers of the one whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has called as لا يعقلون are the perfect example of "ignorant-fools". The offspring of Hinda like you, always try to chew the liver of Ahlul Bayt & their lovers. 

The womb from which people like you took birth is the ugliest & dirtiest place. 

So you came here with the idea to challenge shias with your ugliest intentions and now you are traped in defending why your elders never gave their offspring the names of Ahlul Kisa.

I suspect "Rijs" is the cause.  

[hanbali]

17 minutes ago, Inspector said:

Ahlul Kisa (عليه السلام) were not required to show their love for anyone while everyone from the Ummah is required to show his love for Ahlul Kisa. 

Lack of comprehension is another problem of yours 

Ok genius. How about this. Prophet didn't named his son after Ali. Ali never named his son after hamza despite names of his sons include jafar and abbas.

Morons like you and your entire sect are always humiliated like this by asking simple questions.

And here is a little gift for son of a donkey like you.

The children of second rightly-guided Caliph – Umar ibn al-Khattab(رضي الله عنه) :

Umar(رضي الله عنه) had a total of 13 children. Their names were: Zayd the elder, Zayd the younger, Asim, Abdullah, Abdur-Rahman the elder, Abdur-Rahman the middle one, Abdur-Rahman the younger, Ubaydullah, Iyad, Hafsah[The mother of believers], Ruqayyah, Zaynab and Fatimah.

Umar(رضي الله عنه) married Umm Hakeem bint al-Harith ibn Hisham, who bore him daughter Fatimah.

[Source: Umar bin al-Khattab, by Shiekh Ali Muhammad as-Sallabi, vol1, pg: 44]

Edited December 2, 2023 by hanbali

[hanbali]

27 minutes ago, Inspector said:

Ahlul Kisa (عليه السلام) were not required to show their love for anyone while everyone from the Ummah is required to show his love for Ahlul Kisa. 

Lack of comprehension is another problem of yours 

And whether they are required to show love to another doesn't prove any thing. The point is named their children whom they love. Ali had sons named muhammad, jafar, abbas, abu bakr, umar and uthman.

And there is an another death blow to you. Miqdad didn't named his sons ali, hasan husain either.

Edited December 2, 2023 by hanbali

[Inspector]

1 hour ago, hanbali said:

and Fatimah

His sister's name was also Fatimah bint al-Khattab. There is no historical evidence for Fatimah bint Umar, even if she was his daughter, most likely she was given that name because of or in remembrance of Umar's sister Fatimah bint Khattab. 

We know more than you about your caliphs 

So again, where are the names Ali, Hassan & Hussain in the childrens of your three caliphs.

[hanbali]

15 minutes ago, Inspector said:

His sister's name was also Fatimah bint al-Khattab. There is no historical evidence for Fatimah bint Umar, even if she was his daughter, most likely she was given that name because of or in remembrance of Umar's sister Fatimah bint Khattab. 

We know more than you about your caliphs 

It couldn't. Since he named his daughter ruqayyah, zainab, fatima simultaneoulsly, which are the names of prophet daughters. So it is safe to assume that he named his daughter fatima in the name of the daughter of messenger of allah.

16 minutes ago, Inspector said:

So again, where are the names Ali, Hassan & Hussain in the childrens of your three caliphs.

The answer is already given above.

1 hour ago, hanbali said:

And there is an another death blow to you. Miqdad didn't named his sons ali, hasan husain either.

Now go and beat your head and crawl in mud.

[Inspector]

42 minutes ago, hanbali said:

It couldn't. Since he named his daughter ruqayyah, zainab, fatima simultaneoulsly, which are the names of prophet daughters.

lol, Ruqaiyyah & Zaynab were not from Ahlul Kisa. Prophet's wife name was Zainab too.

Fatimah bint Khattab was the sister of Umar. So your whole answer collapsed again.

42 minutes ago, hanbali said:

The answer is already given above.

lol

42 minutes ago, hanbali said:

And there is an another death blow to you. Miqdad didn't named his sons ali, hasan husain either.

Do you know when Miqdad married and how many wives & children he had? And when they were born?  lol 

What was the age of Miqdad when he accepted Islam as his religion? 

Now back to the original question, where are the names Ali, Hassan & Hussain in the offspring of the three caliphs? Children or Grand-children? Any reference?

 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

22 hours ago, hanbali said:

Still no one for debate?

Bring a sahih us sanad narration from Sunni books first which proves imam had a son named Umar etc.
then bring a Sahih us sanad narration from shia books.
Then we talk about it.

[hanbali]

2 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Bring a sahih us sanad narration from Sunni books first which proves imam had a son named Umar etc.
then bring a Sahih us sanad narration from shia books.
Then we talk about it.

Doesn't need to. It is an historic fact. If we started using only sahih chains then you can't even prove birth of your 12th imam. That's a different topic.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

3 minutes ago, hanbali said:

Doesn't need to. It is an historic fact. If we started using only sahih chains then you can't even prove birth of your 12th imam. That's a different topic.

Historical fact yet no connected/proven evidence to back it up eh? Besides as for the birth of 12th Imam, you are totally Jahil of shia hadith methodology and its not your fault by the way. However, according to Majlisi's grading, about 5-6 hadiths in kafi under the chapter of birth of 12th imam are sahih & 2 according to Behbudi but we deem all of those as sahih.

[hanbali]

23 minutes ago, Inspector said:

Ruqaiyyah & Zaynab were not from Ahlul Kisa. Prophet's wife name was Zainab too.

Fatimah bint Khattab was the sister of Umar. So your whole answer collapsed again.

What about ruqayyah. Prophet didn't have a wife* named ruqayyah. He had daughters named ruqayyah zainab, fatima, umar also had three daughters ruqayyah, zainab, fatima. Too much of a coincidence.

23 minutes ago, Inspector said:

Do you know when Miqdad married and how many wives & children he had? And when they were born?  lol 

He was married after prophethood. Prophet (s) greatly praised Duba'a's lineage and character, he married her to Miqdad, saying: "I married my cousin Duba'a to Miqdad so that people learn to practice lenience in marriage, marrying their daughters to every believer and not taking lineages into account in marriage".[4] Moreover, the Prophet (s) recommended them to follow him as a role-model for their married life. 

Kafi vol 5 pg 344

He had two children. Abdullah and karima.

Ibn Ḥajar al-ʿAsqalānī, al-Iṣāba, vol. 5, p. 22.

Here is another death blow to you.

Malik ashtar didn't named his sons Ali hasan hussain either.

Keep digging your grave.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by hanbali

[hanbali]

8 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Historical fact yet no connected/proven evidence to back it up eh? Besides as for the birth of 12th Imam, you are totally Jahil of shia hadith methodology and its not your fault by the way. However, according to Majlisi's grading, about 5-6 hadiths in kafi under the chapter of birth of 12th imam are sahih & 2 according to Behbudi but we deem all of those as sahih.

Those narrations didn't prove that he was born. All those narrations are about random letters. First educate yourself then talk. As far as your hadith methodology, I already knew about the methodology of early scholars and late scholars. Historians both sunni and shi'i agree that they named their sons abu bakr and umar.

So here is an another blow. Try to prove Ali was born in kaaba using sahih hadith even by your standards.

Edited December 2, 2023 by hanbali

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

6 minutes ago, hanbali said:

Those narrations didn't prove that he was born. All those narrations are about random letters. First educate yourself then talk

 الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ الاشْعَرِيُّ عَنْ مُعَلَّى بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ قَالَ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَبِي مُحَمَّدٍ ((عليه السلام)) حِينَ قُتِلَ الزُّبَيْرِيُّ هَذَا جَزَاءُ مَنِ افْتَرَى عَلَى الله فِي أَوْلِيَائِهِ زَعَمَ أَنَّهُ يَقْتُلُنِي وَلَيْسَ لِي عَقِبٌ فَكَيْفَ رَأَى قُدْرَةَ الله وَوُلِدَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ سَمَّاهُ م‏ح‏م‏د سَنَةَ سِتٍّ وَخَمْسِينَ وَمِائَتَيْنِ.

1. Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad al-Ash‘ari has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from Ahmad ibn Muhammad who has said the following. “When al-Zabayri was killed this letter came from abu Muhammad ((عليه السلام)). ‘Such as this is the retribution for those who lie against Allah in the matters of those who possess authority from Him. He thought that he will kill me and I will leave no children behind. How then he has experienced the power of Allah? “ A child was born to him -that he named M.H.M.D- in the year two hundred fifty six AH.”

From Al-Kafi Hadith 1 of Chapter 125 in 4th book of volume 1.

literally the 1st hadeeth of the chapter in Kafi. I agree there are letters but that isn't much of an issue. Shaykh kyulani testified to the authenticity of all narrations he included in Al-kafi in the book's introduction. So gradings of people coming several 100 years after him, declaring a wide number of narrators majhool simply has no basis. All of these akhbaar are alhamdulillah from Sahih sources.

[hanbali]

Just now, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

 الْحُسَيْنُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ الاشْعَرِيُّ عَنْ مُعَلَّى بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ قَالَ خَرَجَ عَنْ أَبِي مُحَمَّدٍ ((عليه السلام)) حِينَ قُتِلَ الزُّبَيْرِيُّ هَذَا جَزَاءُ مَنِ افْتَرَى عَلَى الله فِي أَوْلِيَائِهِ زَعَمَ أَنَّهُ يَقْتُلُنِي وَلَيْسَ لِي عَقِبٌ فَكَيْفَ رَأَى قُدْرَةَ الله وَوُلِدَ لَهُ وَلَدٌ سَمَّاهُ م‏ح‏م‏د سَنَةَ سِتٍّ وَخَمْسِينَ وَمِائَتَيْنِ.

1. Al-Husayn ibn Muhammad al-Ash‘ari has narrated from Mu‘alla ibn Muhammad from Ahmad ibn Muhammad who has said the following. “When al-Zabayri was killed this letter came from abu Muhammad ((عليه السلام)). ‘Such as this is the retribution for those who lie against Allah in the matters of those who possess authority from Him. He thought that he will kill me and I will leave no children behind. How then he has experienced the power of Allah? “ A child was born to him -that he named M.H.M.D- in the year two hundred fifty six AH.”

From Al-Kafi Hadith 1 of Chapter 125 in 4th book of volume 1.

literally the 1st hadeeth of the chapter in Kafi. I agree there are letters but that isn't much of an issue. Shaykh kyulani testified to the authenticity of all narrations he included in Al-kafi in the book's introduction. So gradings of people coming several 100 years after him, declaring a wide number of narrators majhool simply has no basis. All of these akhbaar are alhamdulillah from Sahih sources.

I meant those sahih narrations according to majlisi and behbudi doesn't prove his birth. As far as other narrations which are weak in chain but authentic according akhbari school do mention his birth.

And my point is how much wives and children Ali had are historical thing. We don't apply methodology of muhadditheen in those things unless which goes against creed or sound ahadith. If we try applying hadith methodology in these, then good luck proving how much wives hasan hussain had, how much children they had, what was their name.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

3 minutes ago, hanbali said:

And my point is how much wives and children Ali had are historical thing. We don't apply methodology of muhadditheen in those things unless which goes against creed or sound ahadith

What happens when historical things go against sound/mutawatir akhbaar? Its either Taweel that applies to those historical narratives or they're rejected right? Common. That's where i wanted to bring you my dear.
When you know, Imamah is easily proven through mutawatir & sound akhbaar of shias and rejection of caliphs of your mazhab is our creed, then why are you bringing a historical narrative that too with an assumption that Ali (عليه السلام) named his son Abu Bakr in love of 1st caliph of Ahle Sunnah? Don't you see your contradiction now?

[hanbali]

1 minute ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

What happens when historical things go against sound/mutawatir akhbaar? Its either Taweel that applies to those historical narratives or they're rejected right? Common. That's where i wanted to bring you my dear.
When you know, Imamah is easily proven through mutawatir & sound akhbaar of shias and rejection of caliphs of your mazhab is our creed, then why are you bringing a historical narrative that too with an assumption that Ali (عليه السلام) named his son Abu Bakr in love of 1st caliph of Ahle Sunnah? Don't you see your contradiction now?

Because there is an agreement between sunnis and shia historians that they named their children. Those historical things which goes against creed or sound hadith were never agreed upon. While shia historians all are agreed that Ali named his sons abu bakr umar and usman despite their creedal issues.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

2 minutes ago, hanbali said:

Because there is an agreement between sunnis and shia historians that they named their children. Those historical things which goes against creed or sound hadith were never agreed upon. While shia historians all are agreed that Ali named his sons abu bakr umar and usman despite their creedal issues.

O bhai jaan even if there was some historical narrative that went against our sounds hadiths, it would either be rejected or we'd do its taweel.
However incase of names, there's no proof that imams (عليه السلام) named there children after your caliphs. That's just your assumption. There's no evidence for that.
Rather our Imams spoke against your views and its mass transmitted don't you understand this?

[hanbali]

4 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

What happens when historical things go against sound/mutawatir akhbaar? Its either Taweel that applies to those historical narratives or they're rejected right? Common. That's where i wanted to bring you my dear.
When you know, Imamah is easily proven through mutawatir & sound akhbaar of shias and rejection of caliphs of your mazhab is our creed, then why are you bringing a historical narrative that too with an assumption that Ali (عليه السلام) named his son Abu Bakr in love of 1st caliph of Ahle Sunnah? Don't you see your contradiction now?

In addition, there is no other taweel which can explain the naming their children. It can't be, meh, they were common names of arabs, since if you  look at the names of their children, they are not really named common names, their names are usually names of famous personalities or beautiful names.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

3 minutes ago, hanbali said:

In addition, there is no other taweel which can explain the naming their children. It can't be, meh, they were common names of arabs, since if you  look at the names of their children, they are not really named common names, their names are usually names of famous personalities or beautiful names.

You just listed two taweel. Either names of famous personalities or beautiful names. I can literally pick the latter and you're done.

Besides you admitted, tareekh when against sound hadiths / creed of a mazhab is not accepted. Then just stop already. How many times would you contradict yourself?

[hanbali]

3 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

You just listed two taweel. Either names of famous personalities or beautiful names. I can literally pick the latter and you're done.

Besides you admitted, tareekh when against sound hadiths / creed of a mazhab is not accepted. Then just stop already. How many times would you contradict yourself?

You can't take other taweel. Since abu bakr means father of a baby camel.

As far as tareekh issue, it is already explained earlier.

Edited December 2, 2023 by hanbali

[Inspector]

1 hour ago, hanbali said:

What about ruqayyah. Prophet didn't have a wife* named ruqayyah

lol, As stated earlier, neither Ruqaiyyah not Zainab were from Ahlul Kisa. 

1 hour ago, hanbali said:

umar also had three daughters ruqayyah, zainab, fatima.

As stated earlier, Fatima was the name of Umar's sister too. 

1 hour ago, hanbali said:

He had two children. Abdullah and karima.

What is the meaning of Abdullah? Whose kunniyah is this? Ever wondered? Ever heard whom are famous as "Abi Abdullah"? 

1 hour ago, hanbali said:

Here is another death blow to you.

Malik ashtar didn't named his sons Ali hasan hussain either.

 Ibrahim bin Malik Ashtar

ملة ابيكم ابراهيم ever heard this phrase of sura e hajj? 

Now back to the question, why you three caliphs failed to give the names Ali, Hassan & Hussain to their sons or grandsons? While you want to debate on the subject that Ali, Hassan & Hussain عليهم السلام gave their sons the names Abu Bakr, Umar & Uthman!

[hanbali]

"Sahaba liked by me can name their children with all the names except ahlul bayt, they are still good. But abu bakr umar usman have to keep their children names after ahlul bayt, and if they did name one of their children fatima then I'm going to assume that it is not after fatima bint rasulullah, it is after some other fatima”

Foolish head beating, mud crawling ignorant.

[Inspector]

6 minutes ago, hanbali said:

Sahaba liked by me can name their children with all the names except ahlul bayt, they are still good.

lol & their adalah is well established to you even if they belong to a rebel group according to your sahaih ahadith.

Your ignorance & blindness is well established with all that.

9 minutes ago, hanbali said:

But abu bakr umar usman have to keep their children names after ahlul bayt, and if they did name one of their children fatima then I'm going to assume that it is not after fatima bint rasulullah, it is after some other fatima”

Yes, how can he name his children to the one whom he threatened to burn her house? So most likely, he named her daughter in remembrance of his sister. 

By the way, I have yet to see any historical evidence for the character Fatimah bint Umar. Not too much is there in history except this name. 

Now back to the question, why your caliphs failed to give names like Ali, Hassan & Hussain to their sons or grandsons?

[hanbali]

This moron don't even understand sarcasm. Companions liked by him also didn't named their children after ahlul bayt but still were lovers of ahlul bayt according to him. That was the point. The point was to show his double standards.

All praises to allah who made the rafidah a laughing stock amongst people.

[hanbali]

30 minutes ago, Inspector said:

Yes, how can he name his children to the one whom he threatened to burn her house? So most likely, he named her daughter in remembrance of his sister. 

This point was already debunked in other page.

 

30 minutes ago, Inspector said:

By the way, I have yet to see any historical evidence for the character Fatimah bint Umar. Not too much is there in history except this name. 

Not having much about a person in history doesn't means he/she doesn't exist. Nothing is known about the one who witness the birth of your qaim, nothing is known much about the mother of imams, nothing is known much about mother of your 12th one. Your sect are not even agreed on who his mother is, some say narjis, some say saqila, since your ancestors didn't plan their lies properly.

 

 

Edited December 2, 2023 by hanbali

[hanbali]

Ok genius. How about this. Prophet didn't named his son after Ali. Ali never named his son after hamza despite names of his sons include jafar and abbas.

[Inspector]

7 hours ago, hanbali said:

Companions liked by him also didn't named their children after ahlul bayt

Ohh, there was even a time in history where your elders were used to kill anyone who was given the name Ali, Hassan, Hussain by his parents. This is the bitter truth of history even accepted by Sunni Scholars. 

Secondly, you never bring the case of Miqdad & Malik again after I pointed you out something which you doesn't like lol.

Lastly, the question was about the sons & grandsons of three caliphs as you wanted to debate with reference to the sons of Imam Ali, Imam Hassan & Imam Hussain عليهم السلام whose names were abu bakar, umar & uthman. So bringing any of the companion other than them would not help you in anyway. 

7 hours ago, hanbali said:

Nothing is known about the one who witness the birth of your qaim, nothing is known much about the mother of imams, nothing is known much about mother of your 12th one.

What is well known is that there are 12 caliphs and 12th will be Mehdi ajtf. What is well known is that the 11 Imams were either killed by sword or either by poison, their killers were the so called muslims like you. What is well known is that after the 11th, there will be the 12th. 

This is according to the common sense. If we consider your poor level of knowledge & understanding, it is not even known to you that by saying "man kunto mowla fahatha Aliyyun mola" Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) had appointed Ali (عليه السلام) as your caliph/master/Imam and his successor. So don't bring "your poor knowledge" here which doesn't even include the common sense. 

6 hours ago, hanbali said:

Ok genius. How about this. Prophet didn't named his son after Ali. Ali never named his son after hamza despite names of his sons include jafar and abbas.

 

Awwalona Muhammad, Ausatona Muhammad, Aakhirona Muhammad, Kullona Muhammad. Ever heard this?

Google to find the names of the sons of Imam Hassan (عليه السلام) & you will find the name Hamza bin Hassan right after Ja'far bin Hassan. 

More references are also with me.

Time now back to the original question, why your three caliphs failed to give the names of Ali, Hassan & Hussain to their sons & grandsons?