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In the Name of God بسم الله

Creation of Hamas

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علوي

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On 11/4/2023 at 6:25 PM, علوي said:

"Hamas...is Israel's creation."

@Diaz, @In Gods Name, Did Israel “create” Hamas? Employing the term ‘create’ is a stretch. It lacks nuance and feeds into unfounded conspiracy theories. Did the Zionists create Shaykh Ahmed Yassin in a laboratory in 1936 and instruct their Frankenstein’s monster to formulate an Islamic resistance group (i.e. Hamas) in 1987? The origins of Hamas are pretty well-documented. Shaykh Yassin established the Palestinian chapter of the Muslim Brotherhood in 1973 and it was officially recognized by Israel six years later. Yassin became its spiritual leader and “Hamas” became its paramilitary wing. Arab secularist parties and nationalist organizations ruled the day during the early 1970’s. Israel jumped on the opportunity to use the newly formed Islamist group as a counterweight to the infinitely more influential PLO and Fatah. The Israelis turned a blind eye to the activities of Hamas and strategically tolerated them because they served a purpose and performed a duty from the Israeli domestic vantagepoint.

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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^^^This topic deserves an independent thread so we can discuss at length without thwarting the primary discussion here...we can also discuss whether or not Taliban, ISIS, al-Qaeda, Muslim Brotherhood etc. are CIA-created institutions...I'll open new thread soon

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On 11/4/2023 at 6:25 PM, علوي said:

I haven't been on for a while, so sorry if anything I say is repetitive (it's bound to be), but these are my thoughts.

It's been 106 years since the Balfour Declaration. 

75 years since the Nakba.

56 years since the beginning of the occupation of the West Bank.

16 years since the beginning of the blockade of Gaza.

No person with any sense of morality can say that Hamas is unjustified in its response to Israeli occupation and ethnic cleansing. 

Even the UN Secretary-General admitted that the attacks by Hamas "did not happen in a vacuum."

The main grounds for criticism of Hamas for Al Aqsa Flood is the killing of Israeli civilians (settlers). Although there is evidence that Hamas did not target settlers (1) and it was rather the IOF (Israeli Occupation Forces) who killed many of them (2), these settlers are not innocent (3).

Firstly, "[t]here is little to no credible evidence that Palestinian fighters had a plan to - or deliberately sought to - kill or harm unarmed Israeli civilians on 7 October." Rather, the head of Hamas' international relations has clarified that fighters were given orders to not target settlers.

Secondly, "[e]merging evidence now indicates that there is a high probability, especially due to the scale of the infrastructural damage, that Israeli military forces could have deliberately killed captives, fired on incorrect targets, or mistaken Israelis for Palestinians in their firefights." 

Agreed

On 11/4/2023 at 6:25 PM, علوي said:

Thirdly, even if Hamas did target settlers, we must remember that they are just that - settlers who are living on stolen land, eating from food grown on stolen land, drinking from stolen water, and serving mandatory time in a military that actively commits genocide on a daily basis.

My gut tells me the Shi'i stance is similar if not identical. I couldn't find anything Shi'i-related in English on the topic.

From A Sunni Website:

"Who is considered a civilian?

Generally speaking, even in the neo-classical interpretation, women, children, peasants, and religious or medical personnel cannot be targeted.

However, civilians can lose their protected status if they take part in the fighting. As in IHL, the definition of direct participation in hostilities (DPH) is hazy.

“Once they carry weapons for fighting, or contribute intelligence, war strategies or suggestions to the army, their status changes from civilians to combatants,” says a 2011 article by Malaysian professors, published in the International Journal of Humanities and Social Science.

According to more extreme interpretations, supporting the enemy even by opinion, propaganda or moral support makes someone a combatant.

In a situation of invasion or occupation, all those associated with the effort, even if not carrying arms, are considered legitimate targets and all Muslim civilians are under obligation to fight to defend the homeland."

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On 11/4/2023 at 6:25 PM, علوي said:

Having said all this, however, I will say that I do not like Hamas.

The realist in me understands and agrees with you completely. The idealist in me says to give them another chance. If the Supreme Leader and Bashar and Sayyid Hassan can forgive them then we can forgive them too. We're not holier than these men. Hamas has redeemed themselves 100% by their performance in this latest military operation. 

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22 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Did Israel “create” Hamas? Employing the term ‘create’ is a stretch. It lacks nuance and feeds into unfounded conspiracy theories

I agree with you the statement that the brother made does not make sense nor is it entirely accurate.

The resistance group was formed as a reaction to violence and to resist the occupation. Please note that the military group is just one subset of the overall party. While not every Palestinian may agree with the policies of the party and may attribute some corruption to it, they do support the military wing as it is the only way to deter extreme violence from the IDF and to keep them in check. 

Israel did not create the group because creating a group requires long-term objectives and it implies that they were under that leadership. Their objectives are totally different from Israel and receiving support does not mean they are with the IDF. It is clear that at present they do want to fight for the freedom of all Palestinians. It is also possible that they may have regretted their past decisions.

Also remember that it is the innocent Palestinian kids who grow up to join these military groups when they see no peaceful alternative and want to defend their land. So when someone says 'I don't like', I hope it is not targeted to the freedom fighters.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans
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19 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

the party and may attribute some corruption to it

No party or country is free from corruption...some parties, organizations and countries are more corrupt than others

20 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

they may have regretted their past previous decisions.

Keep in mind that it was a small percentage of Hamas fighters that decided to join the Sunni insurgency in Syria...there was consternation within the ranks of Hamas over the decision to turn against Bashar...it caused infighting...there's a certain percentage Salafi strain that exists or lies within Hamas...most members are traditional Shafi'is (somebody said Hanafis but I'm pretty sure that that's incorrect...we need to double-check on that...Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians i.e. Levantine Sunnis are mostly/mainly Shafi'i...I'd be shocked if Palestinians are Hanafi...Hanafis are generally concentrated eastward in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Afghanistan i.e. Subcontinent and Central Asia and Iraq and China etc....)...Also, I've heard by word of mouth that a small percentage of Hamas members have 'converted' to the Ja'fari theological school...I'm assuming this is a tiny minority...perhaps 2% or so 

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Let's begin by stating the obvious...The three spheres of Islamist power in MENA are: 1.) the Muslim  Brotherhood 2.) Shi'a 3.) Wahhabism/Salafism...each has a unique vision and methodology and each is vying for the allegiance of the region...between 2006 and 2014 things were looking on the up and up for Hamas...They beat Fatah and Ismail Haniyeh was nominated Prime Minister of PA (Palestinian Authority) in 2006...Erdoğan served as prime minister from 2003 to 2014 and became modern Turkey's 12th president in 2014...Mohamed Morsi won 52% of the Egyptian vote and became president on June 24th, 2012...it was an exciting time for Islamists of every stripe, shade and persuasion but an especially bright and optimistic time for members of Jamāʿah al-Ikhwān al-Muslimīn...Morsi met with Khaled Mashal and reopened the Gazan border with the intention of tying Gaza to the Egypt's electrical grid and natural gas pipeline...Also, Gaza's economy would now be connected to Egypt's (not Israel's) and Gaza would be relinked with the outside world...

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I heard that Hamas is actively anti-semitic and actually wants all Jews dead, not just Zionists. Even a Lebanese-Canadian Shia guy I know has repeated this. Granted, I'm also in the west and these are the sorts of narratives we get about non-western fighting forces. It makes it difficult to weed out which information is accurate or not, doubly so when one does not know Arabic or any other middle eastern language.

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i swear I didn't create this thread.... i was supposed to post this in the main Al Aqsa Flood thread

Anyway, @Eddie Mecca, @ali_fatheroforphans, I think the line by retired Israeli official Avner Cohen that "Hamas...is Israel's creation" was metaphorical. The description that "the Jewish state tolerated and even encouraged the group since its birth in the 1980s, seeing it as a counterweight to Yasser Arafat and the Palestine Liberation Organisation" is a more accurate statement.

15 hours ago, JannahLM said:

I heard that Hamas is actively anti-semitic and actually wants all Jews dead, not just Zionists.

This is incorrect. The Ham@s charter differentiates between Zionists and peaceful Jews. It says that the Zionists must be driven out of Palestine, but the peaceful Jews and Christians who respect Arab sovereignty over Arab lands can be allowed to stay.

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17 hours ago, JannahLM said:

Granted, I'm also in the west and these are the sorts of narratives we get about non-western fighting forces

Those who are further spreading the lies and propaganda need to take more responsibility especially those in the West who probably have no idea how the resistance group operates.

I have never heard this narrative from them and by their actions it is obvious that they don't target civilians purposefully. 

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6 hours ago, علوي said:

The description that "the Jewish state tolerated and even encouraged the group since its birth in the 1980s, seeing it as a counterweight to Yasser Arafat and the Palestine Liberation Organisation" is a more accurate statement.

Exactly, and now that Hamas and PIJ (Palestinian Islamic Jihad) are the dominant parties, the Israelis are using (or trying to use) Fatah (i.e. the secularist or socialist parties) to counterbalance or offset the Islamist groups...Also, I want to echo something @AbdusSibtaynsaid awhile back...I would prefer if Jihād al-Islāmi fi Filastīn were the dominant ruling party in Gaza but I'm a peon and I have no say in the matter...Hamas is being pulled in three different directions between Doha, Ankara and Tehran...my understanding is that PIJ/Al-Quds Brigades are much more idealistically aligned with the vision of Tehran 

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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On 11/14/2023 at 12:09 AM, Eddie Mecca said:

Let's begin by stating the obvious...The three spheres of Islamist power in MENA are: 1.) the Muslim  Brotherhood 2.) Shi'a 3.) Wahhabism/Salafism...each has a unique vision and methodology and each is vying for the allegiance of the region...between 2006 and 2014 things were looking on the up and up for Hamas...They beat Fatah and Ismail Haniyeh was nominated Prime Minister of PA (Palestinian Authority) in 2006...Erdoğan served as prime minister from 2003 to 2014 and became modern Turkey's 12th president in 2014...Mohamed Morsi won 52% of the Egyptian vote and became president on June 24th, 2012...it was an exciting time for Islamists of every stripe, shade and persuasion but an especially bright and optimistic time for members of Jamāʿah al-Ikhwān al-Muslimīn...Morsi met with Khaled Mashal and reopened the Gazan border with the intention of tying Gaza to the Egypt's electrical grid and natural gas pipeline...Also, Gaza's economy would now be connected to Egypt's (not Israel's) and Gaza would be relinked with the outside world..

Also, the early 2010's were characterized by turbulence...They were unstable and unsettling years in MENA that witnessed antigovernmental demonstrations, seditions, rebellions, insurrections and armed revolts (i.e. Arab Spring Uprisings) unfurling throughout much of the Arab world...Minor disturbances took place in Djibouti, Mauritania, Palestine, Saudi Arabia and the Moroccan-occupied Western Sahara...Major disturbances took place in Morocco, Iraq, Algeria, Lebanon, Jordan, Kuwait, Oman and Sudan...revolution was in the air it seemed...I'm attempting to paint a picture and I'm attempting to establish a backdrop

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Personally, I don't view Hamas v. Syrian government in solely black or white terms...I believe in order to properly comprehend Hamas's position on the "Syrian Civil War" during 2011-2013, it helps to understand the history of the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood and its historical animosity toward the al-Assad government and vice-versa...it also helps to study the history of the Egyptian Muslim Brotherhood, Hassan al-Banna and other late 19th century/early 20th century Islamic revivalist movements...moreover, it helps to comprehend and understand how secularist ideologies (i.e. democracy, socialism, communism etc.) were forced on the region by the imperialists...this makes for a broad discussion...in a nutshell, Gamal Abdel-Nasser requested that Syria dissolve the Ba'ath Party and outlaw all MB activities during the UAR (UAR = United Army Republic) years...Nasser himself was assisted to power by the MB...MB supported the "Free Officers" movement and assisted in the toppling of King Farouk in 1952...Mohamed Naguib and Nasser partially used the MB support base to ascend to power then immediately clamped down on them in a merciless manner 

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On 11/23/2023 at 9:06 PM, Eddie Mecca said:

(UAR = United Army Republic

I meant to say 'United Arab Republic' 

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