Israel-Hizbollah Conflict 2023/2024

[Ahmad8888]

5 minutes ago, root said:

Shia's who believe bcc, reuters and the likes above our own Ulama and journalists are the same Shias that put the Quran on spears. Disgusting to the point that i am convinced they are imposters rather than Shias. 

Funny thing is almost all western media don't know what they are talking about, a palestinian journalist broke this down better than I can and I agree with him given I noticed the same thing. He made the video during the beginning of the war. 

 

[Hameedeh]

If you don't like what someone else writes in a topic, please ignore it or reply to refute it. A Moderator will read your report, but they are not going to do your work for you.  

[Ahmad8888]

31 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

If you don't like what someone else writes in a topic, please ignore it or reply to refute it. A Moderator will read your report, but they are not going to do your work for you.  

Wait who is this referring to? 

[Hameedeh]

2 minutes ago, HusseinAbbas said:

Wait who is this referring to? 

The person who reported your post. 

[Ahmad8888]

5 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

The person who reported your post. 

All I did is post my opinion, just so the person who reported me understands this, I never justified any civilian deaths, if hamas killed some innocents I don't condone it and I made that clear, I just pointed out that the waters are being muddied with false allegations.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Hameedeh

[Ahmad8888]

Either it's better to not even waste time on this, I even regret trying to clear these false allegations, this is all idle talk at this point, I suggest we stick to news, we should have had these morality debates before the rivers of blood started flowing in palestine which is why from now on I will only post news that is relevant, especially to people who live in the ME who might lose their lives in a potential regional conflict, they need to be informed. 

[Eddie Mecca]

On 11/13/2023 at 3:58 AM, Abu Nur said:

Is that allowed in Islam? 

Yes, there's a combative principle in Islam...I forgot what it's called...but if the enemy hits you in a certain way you're allowed to strike them back in a similar manner...I don't know all the particular details to it...I learned about it in the 90's when I was studying with Hizb-ut-Tahrir...I'll try to run a Google search and find it...Sayyid Hassan said a long time ago he would fight in an unrestrained manner if the Zionists behave wildly...I think it has something to do with the "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth" doctrine...keep in mind there are no such thing as "civilians" in Israel...Also, only 3% of Israelis want a ceasefire...in other words, the overwhelming majority of Israelis want the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Gaza to continue

Edited November 16, 2023 by Eddie Mecca

[Eddie Mecca]

@Abu Nur, "If the Israelis behave as if they are no limits to aggression"..."we too will have no limits"..."all options are on the table" Hassan Nasrallah from 2012

'Hezbollah: Iran Will Attack U.S. Bases If Israel launches Strike on Iranian Nuclear Facilities' (5 minutes)

 

 

 

[Eddie Mecca]

@Abu Nur, "To the Zionists, to the people of the Zionist entity at this hour, I say to them: …. The equation has now changed. I will not say today that if you strike Beirut, we will strike Haifa. I will not tell you that if you hit the southern Beirut suburbs, we will hit Haifa. You wanted to get rid of that equation, so now we and you have got rid of it in actuality. You wanted open warfare, and we are going into open warfare. We are ready for it, a war on every level. To Haifa, and, believe me, to beyond Haifa, and to beyond beyond Haifa. Not only we will be paying a price. Not only our houses will be destroyed. Not only our children will be killed. Not only our people will be displaced. Those days are past. That was how it was before 1982, and before the year 2000. Hassan Nasrallah " English transcript of speech at www.aimislam.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=457 (accessed May 29, 2007)

[Eddie Mecca]

@Abu Nur, "First, concerning field operations, we tried from the start to act calmly and carefully and without any haste. We issued clear positions, and clear warnings. On the first day we aimed our rocket firing toward military sites only, and did not attack any Israeli colony or settlement in the north of occupied Palestine. But the army of the enemy, helpless before the Moujahideen, started from the first day targeting towns, villages and civilians and civilian installations and infrastructure. Despite this, we maintained our patience, and directed our fight against soldiers and military sites in the north of occupied Palestine [i.e., present-day Israel]….

Our patience in the early days seems to have been misunderstood by the enemy, for we in fact were patient with the aggression and we responded only on the military for the sake of making it clear that our battle was with it; and we considered that everybody was a partner [sic], but as long as we do not have to bomb civilian targets, why resort to the bombing of civilian targets?....

Today we had no choice but to renege on the pledge we had made to ourselves and proceeded to bomb the city of Haifa, knowing the importance and dangerous nature of this city….

We will resort to any means that will allow us to defend [our nation and people]; as long as the enemy undertakes its aggression without limits or red lines, we will respond without limits or red lines….

In the next phase we will continue as long as they have chosen this open war. We will be careful, to the extent possible, to avoid civilians unless they force us to [target them]. During the past period, even when we were forced to target civilians, we focused on the major settlements and cities even though we are capable of reaching any settlement, any village or any city in northern occupied Palestine, at the least, but we have preferred to use matters within the limits of pressuring the government of this enemy." Hassan Nasrallah “Nasrallah: We are ready to face the ground assault,” an-Nahar, July 17, 2006

[Eddie Mecca]

@Abu Nur, "Regarding the rockets and the settlements, I would like to confirm that our shelling of the settlements, in the north or beyond Haifa or Tel Aviv, and since the issues are now clearer, is a reaction and not an action. If you attack our cities, villages and capital, we will react. And any time you decide to stop your attacks on our cities, villages and infrastructure, we will not fire rockets on any Israeli settlement or city. Naturally, we would rather, in case of fighting, fight soldier to soldier on the ground and battlefield." Hassan Nasrallah English transcript of this speech at http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14470.htm (accessed May 1, 2007).

"When the enemy persisted in exceeding his bounds during combat through continuous bombardment of civilian targets, the Resistance resorted to aiming Katyusha rockets at the northern Israeli settlements. The formula of hurting the enemy through direct targeting of Israeli soldiers was proving insufficient to deter Israeli targeting of Lebanese civilian targets. As such, direct bombardment of Israeli civilian areas was a reaction, a reciprocal to what was initiated by the Israeli army. These measures helped achieve the July 1993 Accord and thereafter the April 1996 Accord, in both of which it was agreed that civilian areas should fall within a sphere of neutrality, a fact that is only appropriate and harmonious with the objectives and approach of the Resistance." Secretary-General Na`im Qassem Na`im Qassem, Hizbullah: The Story from Within (London: Saqi Books, 2005), p. 74.

[Diaz]

5 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

All I did is post my opinion, just so the person who reported me understands this, I never justified any civilian deaths, if hamas killed some innocents I don't condone it and I made that clear, I just pointed out that the waters are being muddied with false allegations.

 

5 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

Either it's better to not even waste time on this, I even regret trying to clear these false allegations, this is all idle talk at this point, I suggest we stick to news, we should have had these morality debates before the rivers of blood started flowing in palestine which is why from now on I will only post news that is relevant, especially to people who live in the ME who might lose their lives in a potential regional conflict, they need to be informed. 

Thank you brother, it’s better to start ignoring and focus at the topic. May allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless u and ur loved ones.

Edited November 16, 2023 by Hameedeh

[Hameedeh]

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[Haji 2003]

Israel upping the ante

 

Quote

Israel’s national security adviser has warned that Israel “can no longer accept” the presence of Hizbollah forces on its northern border, and said it will have to “act” if they continue to pose a threat.

https://www.ft.com/content/4d30b0fb-db32-4c22-8ebb-e979520753f9

 

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“We can no longer accept the Radwan force sitting on the border . . . The Israeli public . . . understand that the situation in the north needs to change. And it will change,” If Hizbollah agrees to change it diplomatically, that’s good, if not — we will have to act.

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

Reuters journalist Issam Abdallah ‘killed by Israeli tank shell’

Quote

The weapon that killed Abdallah was a 120mm shell, which is used by the Israeli military on its Merkava tanks, multiple weapons experts consulted by the different investigators found. A tail fin from the munition was found near his body.

Hezbollah is not known to have tanks and the Lebanese army’s largest calibre tank round is 105mm, Reuters said. It was likely to have been fired from the south-east, near the Israeli village of Jordeikh, where Israeli tanks were operating, the investigations found.

There was no militant activity in the immediate area, the reports said. Intense military surveillance in the border area means the group would have been clearly visible to commanders

 

Israel’s military and Hezbollah have traded fire across the border most days since the Israel-Hamas war began on 7 October. There have been two deadly attacks on journalists inside Lebanon in that time.

 

The first attack killed Abdallah. On 21 November, the Lebanese broadcaster Al Mayadeen said an Israeli strike about a mile from the border had killed two of its journalists and a third person at the site where they were filming.

Quote

At the start of December the group reported that 63 journalists and media workers had been killed in the conflict – 56 Palestinian, four Israeli, and three Lebanese.

A spokesperson told Reuters: “We don’t target journalists.” After the attack Israel’s UN envoy, Gilad Erdan, said:

Quote

“Obviously, we would never want to hit or kill or shoot any journalist that is doing its job. But you know, we’re in a state of war, things might happen.”

 

Independent research institute, the Netherlands Organization for Applied Scientific Research (TNO), analyzed the material for Reuters at its laboratories in The Hague.

TNO’s key findings?

A large piece of metal from the scene was the tail fin of a 120 mm tank round made by an Israeli weapons manufacturer and fired from a smoothbore tank gun positioned just across the border.

(Ziad Makary, Lebanese Minister of Information)

Quote

“I believe that it is in the military strategy of Israel to kill journalists so that they kill the truth.”

https://sg.news.yahoo.com/israeli-tank-fire-killed-reuters-173252072.html

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/israel-on-reuters-finding-its-forces-killed-lebanon-journalist-says-area-a-combat-zone/ar-AA1lbq4b

[Diaz]

If anyone is interested in what’s happening in south Lebanon, follow the link below on Instagram. It’s in Arabic and English. 
 

https://instagram.com/eye.on.south.lebanon?igshid=MmVlMjlkMTBhMg==

[Haji 2003]

A view on the likelihood of conflict

 

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

1 hour ago, Haji 2003 said:

A view on the likelihood of conflict

 

 

Iran+Hezb as both unwilling and deterred.

correction:

Iran+Hezb have strong will but they want reducing casualties and through a long time de facto ceasefire and waiting in silence .

[علوي]

I usually don't like to reignite arguments, but there's a vital point which was only mentioned briefly by brother Eddie Mecca...

On 11/16/2023 at 4:55 PM, Eddie Mecca said:

keep in mind there are no such thing as "civilians" in Israel...Also, only 3% of Israelis want a ceasefire...in other words, the overwhelming majority of Israelis want the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Gaza to continue

Every single "Israeli" is living on occupied land, drinking from stolen water, eating from stolen food. They all know that they don't belong in Palestine (rather, in Europe). They all know that their government is committing genocide and has been for 75+ years. And they all do nothing about it. (Those who do (i.e. the handful of Rabbis in Old Jerusalem) get attacked by the Israeli "Defence" Forces). 

The Islamic laws surrounding innocent blood are about just that - innocent blood. No one advocates for the killing of innocent people. I will tell you right now, whether its the IOF, Hamas or Hezbullah, killing children is wrong and never justified under any circumstances. 

But to assume that Islam has any regard whatsoever for the Zionist "civilians" just because they're called "civilians" by kuffar... I don't know what kind of failure of morality happened there...

Definitions mean nothing when every single Israeli is literally living from theft. Their entire rizq is stolen. It's purely stolen. I don't know how else to put it, but I can't stress this point enough. 

I also want to stress (for anyone still parroting the idiotic claim of anti-Semitism (despite the ironic fact that Arabs are Semites and Israelis are not)) that if Israelis were to leave Palestine and go back to Europe, Hamas would have no problem with them whatsoever. The problem is not that they are Jews, it's that they're occupying Palestine. 

Bottom line: I am not advocating for the death of anyone. The best-case scenario would be for the Israelis to go home to Europe and the US, as they've been clearly told for 75+ years by the native population of Palestine. If they choose to remain occupying Arab land, the Arabs will take it back by force.

أُذِنَ لِلَّذِينَ يُقَاتَلُونَ بِأَنَّهُمْ ظُلِمُوا ۚ وَإِنَّ اللَّهَ عَلَىٰ نَصْرِهِمْ لَقَدِيرٌ
Those who are fought against are permitted [to fight] because they have been wronged, and Allah is indeed able to help them [22:39]

[Abu Nur]

11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Iran+Hezb as both unwilling and deterred.

correction:

Iran+Hezb have strong will but they want reducing casualties and through a long time de facto ceasefire and waiting in silence .

Like the Jews of Khaybar, they fear Imam Ali (عليه السلام), his sons and his followers.

[Eddie Mecca]

9 hours ago, علوي said:

But to assume that Islam has any regard whatsoever for the Zionist "civilians" just because they're called "civilians" by kuffar... I don't know what kind of failure of morality happened there...

Also, some members here are consciously or unconsciously blaming Islamic resistance groups for the formation of modern modes of warfare...they're blaming Hamas for the gunpowder revolution, blaming Hezbollah for the invention of nuclear warfare, blaming the Houthis for the invention of industrial and mechanized warfare...they're claiming that Hezbollah enjoys killing innocent civilians and Hamas invented the concept of bombing civilians from the air and conventional warfare...I'm not sure what type of history books they're reading...bombing from the air and the concept of total war (warfare that includes any and all civilian-associated resources and infrastructure as legitimate military targets) was started by Europeans...Europeans! Europeans! Europeans! Reject the European and befriend he black African...stop idolizing and worshipping the French as a god besides God...the British and French enslaved you and you adore them for it...the African has never lifted a finger against you and you despise him because of his skin color and facial features...Allah is using Israel to punish the Muslims...wake up!

[kadhim]

14 hours ago, علوي said:

They all know that they don't belong in Palestine (rather, in Europe).

Oof. I said I was out, but this post is just another level of deceitful nonsense. 

lol. Europe? Facepalm.

Ok, genius. Explain to me why these dudes and their descendants (who probably make up close to half of Israelis today) should go to Europe of all places: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world

Namely, the close to a million Jews kicked out/pressured out of Arab countries in the 20th century by all those lovely Arabs who supposedly  “””hate Zionism, not Jews”””. 

By the way, if you want to see, numerically, what “ethnic cleansing” actually looks like in reality, as opposed to cynical propaganda rhetoric, check out the table under “Table of the Jewish population in Muslim countries,” comparing 1948 populations to populations today. 

Where are those people going to go, genius?

Do you advocate their “right to return” to the Arab countries? Are you in support of the Arab countries returning the land and property confiscated from them in that process? Something tells me you would not. (Just a wild and crazy hunch on my part)

14 hours ago, علوي said:

The Islamic laws surrounding innocent blood are about just that - innocent blood. No one advocates for the killing of innocent people. I will tell you right now, whether its the IOF, Hamas or Hezbullah, killing children is wrong and never justified under any circumstances. 

But to assume that Islam has any regard whatsoever for the Zionist "civilians" just because they're called "civilians" by kuffar... I don't know what kind of failure of morality happened there...

This is unadulterated (or is it fully adulterated?) kufr-sauce.

The rules of Islam on warfare and civilians and who is and who isn’t a protected civilian is really quite clear, and however you want to deceitfully spin it to yourself, Islam simply does not agree with you on this at all, at all, at all. 

Listen (and I extend this as well to folks like @Abu Zahra who really should know better than to upvote this sort of clearly kufr thinking): If the limits of Islamic law are so intolerably constrictive to you, maybe just be honest with yourself and others and leave for another religion that fits your values better? Instead of trying to dishonestly rewrite it according to your base desires.

14 hours ago, علوي said:

I also want to stress (for anyone still parroting the idiotic claim of anti-Semitism (despite the ironic fact that Arabs are Semites and Israelis are not)) that if Israelis were to leave Palestine and go back to Europe, Hamas would have no problem with them whatsoever. The problem is not that they are Jews, it's that they're occupying Palestine. 

The number of Jews getting targeted by Muslims and other pro-Pali people with anti-Semitic activity in Europe and the Americas — which has gone through the roof since 10/07 — gives the lie to this claim. Clearly a substantial portion of our people have a huge problem with Jews wherever they are. You look absurd when you lie about it like this. 
 

14 hours ago, علوي said:

Bottom line: I am not advocating for the death of anyone. 

Right … You’re not advocating for their deaths. You’re just saying they all deserve death unless they all move to another continent. Do you really think no one can see through your doublespeak here? 

You guys like to cynically exploit the word “genocide.” The world saw on October 7 who are truthfully the ones in this conflict with genocide in their hearts. 

And if anyone needs further education on what a genocidal mindset looks like in practice, they can also take a good look at posts like yours here. 

 

Edited December 17, 2023 by kadhim

[Haji 2003]

4 hours ago, kadhim said:

Namely, the close to a million Jews kicked out/pressured out of Arab countries in the 20th century by all those lovely Arabs who supposedly  “””hate Zionism, not Jews”””. 

 

Well. Esther Meir-Glitzenstein, of the Ben-Gurion institute, Ben-Gurion university of the Negev, would beg to differ:

 

Quote

That myth was recently challenged at a ‘Jews of Iraq Conference’ that took place in September 2019 at SOAS University of London.1 Avi Shlaim, a professor of international relations who was born in Baghdad, immigrated to Israel in 1950 at age 5, and relocated to Britain ten years later, presented a counter-myth of the Iraqi emigration by way of his family’s story. He described the heavy toll paid by his well-to-do family and his father’s inability to overcome the loss of the property and status he had held in Iraq. When he questioned their move, his mother had replied that she wanted to leave because ‘it is no longer safe for the children to stay in Baghdad’. Shlaim, however, rejected this explanation, pointing to the good relations between Jews and Muslims in Baghdad. He attributed the mass exodus of Iraqi Jews to five acts of terror that occurred in Baghdad during 1950–1951, coinciding with the years of mass emigration, in which grenades were tossed at Jewish sites in Baghdad, injuring several dozen Jews and in one instance resulting in five deaths. Shlaim added that there exist firm indications that Israel was involved in these terrorist incidents and directly responsible for four of them, with the fifth having been carried out by a policeman in service of the Zionists. The acts of terror sparked fear and panic, prompting the mass emigration of Iraqi Jews. He summed up, ‘My conclusion is that we were not Zionist, we did not choose to move from Baghdad to Israel, we were forcibly conscripted into the Zionist project.... This is a clear instance of “cruel Zionism”.’

Esther Meir-Glitzenstein (2022) Terrorism and migration: on the mass emigration of Iraqi Jews, 1950–1951, Middle Eastern Studies, 58:1, 136-152

 

Of course, the narratives for each Arab country will likely be different.

For example, in Algeria, the local Jewish population associated themselves with the French colonisers, which no doubt played a part in subsequent Muslim/Jewish relations and likely an imperative to leave the country. But I'd be hard-pressed to blame the Muslims for that state of affairs.

 

Quote

The Jews in Algeria who were originally placed in the category of “natives” alongside Muslim Algerians, were absorbed into the settler polity in 1870, but only those living north of the Sahara. The Mozabite Jews in the Sahara were made French only in 1961. The civic membership of northern Jews was the result of initiatives of elite members of the Metropolitan Jewish consistory, but and once naturalized, Jews eventually became advocates of the French Algerian framework and benefited from the same civil status and rights as their European counterparts.

Choi, S. (2015). Decolonization and the French of Algeria: Bringing the settler colony home. Palgrave Macmillan UK.

[Ashvazdanghe]

18 hours ago, kadhim said:

You guys like to cynically exploit the word “genocide.” The world saw on October 7 who are truthfully the ones in this conflict with genocide in their hearts. 

And if anyone needs further education on what a genocidal mindset looks like in practice, they can also take a good look at posts like yours here. 

Salam it's clear that so called settlers of zionist Isreal have  "genocide in their hearts" which all facts about using Hannibal doctrine by IDF and posts by Shia chat members approves it despite of your whims in a losing battle against evident truth .

@ireallywannaknow

Quote

From 1400 to 1200 to now less than 700 as the total of Israelis killed in the "Khamas massacre." That's less than half. Then you have to imagine how low that number will be when we exclude those killed by Israel themselves and excluding military personnel. 

@Haji 2003

Watch the Israeli leadership, on record, vowing to destroy Gaza and its people. Genocidal rhetoric. pic.twitter.com/HYdGhJtIJ0

— Led By Donkeys (@ByDonkeys) December 14, 2023

@Abu Hadi

Quote

In the end it's going to be close to the 381 number which is the number of iof soldiers Hamas and Israel both acknowledge died in the Oct 7 operation. 

I'm sure there were civilian casualties but it wasn't 400+. Most of those were iof freaking out and bombing their own people along with some Hamas fighters

After all the lies and propaganda is sorted thru this will be the situation. 

@HusseinAbbas

https://twitter.com/doamuslims/status/1736504037506191644

 

Israel just shelled a childrens and maternity hospital in khan yunis. 

at the end @ireallywannaknow again

 

Yes the truth is for the patient. We would be foolish to have knee jerk reactions and judgements based on reports from the most lying and evil entity of our time. 

"O you who believe! If a Faasiq (evil person) comes to you with any news, verify it, lest you should harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful for what you have done” [al-Hujuraat 49:6]

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/51769-israel-palestine-conflict/?page=21#comment-3419074

 

[Ahmad8888]

3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam it's clear that so called settlers of zionist Isreal have  "genocide in their hearts" which all facts about using Hannibal doctrine by IDF and posts by Shia chat members approves it despite of your whims in a losing battle against evident truth .

@ireallywannaknow

@Haji 2003

Watch the Israeli leadership, on record, vowing to destroy Gaza and its people. Genocidal rhetoric. pic.twitter.com/HYdGhJtIJ0

— Led By Donkeys (@ByDonkeys) December 14, 2023

@Abu Hadi

@HusseinAbbas

https://twitter.com/doamuslims/status/1736504037506191644

 

Israel just shelled a childrens and maternity hospital in khan yunis. 

at the end @ireallywannaknow again

 

Yes the truth is for the patient. We would be foolish to have knee jerk reactions and judgements based on reports from the most lying and evil entity of our time. 

"O you who believe! If a Faasiq (evil person) comes to you with any news, verify it, lest you should harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful for what you have done” [al-Hujuraat 49:6]

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/51769-israel-palestine-conflict/?page=21#comment-3419074

 

There is no hope for him, when you have scholars educated on that matter calling what israel does genocidal, when it's obvious to everyone of us with the genocidal rhetoric that they spew that the israelis do really want genocide and he keeps denying it just to be contrarian. When he resorts to wikipedia for the million "exodus", without actually looking at what most people educated on that matter say, when he slanders us of being anti semites whilst using questionable arguments, then there is no help for him.

Edited December 18, 2023 by HusseinAbbas

[Ahmad8888]

17 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

 

Well. Esther Meir-Glitzenstein, of the Ben-Gurion institute, Ben-Gurion university of the Negev, would beg to differ:

 

Esther Meir-Glitzenstein (2022) Terrorism and migration: on the mass emigration of Iraqi Jews, 1950–1951, Middle Eastern Studies, 58:1, 136-152

 

Of course, the narratives for each Arab country will likely be different.

For example, in Algeria, the local Jewish population associated themselves with the French colonisers, which no doubt played a part in subsequent Muslim/Jewish relations and likely an imperative to leave the country. But I'd be hard-pressed to blame the Muslims for that state of affairs.

 

Choi, S. (2015). Decolonization and the French of Algeria: Bringing the settler colony home. Palgrave Macmillan UK.

I know in egypt this was the main area where jewish people were expelled from paranoia, because zionists were commiting terror attacks, other than that his claims are nonsensical, it's the typical zionist garbage. 

[kadhim]

On 12/17/2023 at 1:05 PM, Haji 2003 said:

 

Well. Esther Meir-Glitzenstein, of the Ben-Gurion institute, Ben-Gurion university of the Negev, would beg to differ:

 

Esther Meir-Glitzenstein (2022) Terrorism and migration: on the mass emigration of Iraqi Jews, 1950–1951, Middle Eastern Studies, 58:1, 136-152

 

Of course, the narratives for each Arab country will likely be different.

For example, in Algeria, the local Jewish population associated themselves with the French colonisers, which no doubt played a part in subsequent Muslim/Jewish relations and likely an imperative to leave the country. But I'd be hard-pressed to blame the Muslims for that state of affairs.

 

Choi, S. (2015). Decolonization and the French of Algeria: Bringing the settler colony home. Palgrave Macmillan UK.

I’ll tell you what. I’m going to acknowledge this as the views of two professional historians in regards to some part of the explanation in two countries. I’m willing to entertain the idea of these factors as part of the explanation. 

But it’s absurd to suggest that Arab anti-Semitism was not a primary factor in driving Arab Jews to Israel. Why else would a million people, ~90+% just leave across ~ a dozen different countries? Almost the entire Jewish communities, many of them there since before Islam, just left the Arab world, and most of the Muslim world behind. Within a few decades. I mean just reflect on that for a femtosecond. . 

I’ve been a part of this community for a good number of years as an adult. I’ve seen and heard a large amount of quite casual anti-Semitism, whether overt or via coded dog whistles or invoking of classic tropes. I’ve seen it on this site too. On this thread. Do you really mean to tell me you don’t think there is a problem with anti-Semitism in this community? 

[Ashvazdanghe]

1 hour ago, kadhim said:

I’ve been a part of this community for a good number of years as an adult. I’ve seen and heard a large amount of quite casual anti-Semitism, whether overt or via coded dog whistles or invoking of classic tropes. I’ve seen it on this site too. On this thread. Do you really mean to tell me you don’t think there is a problem with anti-Semitism in this community? 

Salam being part of an absurd grouplet & hearing anti-semitic rhetoric from some lunatic people in an absurd grouplet or seeing it in some sites is not enough proof which surly you have not visited any Muslim country in entire of your life which although of some struggles between Jews & muslims they have lived peacefully besides each other most of time which just since start of occupation of Palestine by zionists this so called anti-semitic rhetorics have been spread in muslim world which source of it has been crypto zionist which their agenda has been persuading of Jews into migration to fake state of israel by any means even attacking to them by zionists through spreading anti-semitic rhetoric between some radical muslim groups & encouraging them to attack to Jewish community . 

[Ahmad8888]

10 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam being part of an absurd grouplet & hearing anti-semitic rhetoric from some lunatic people in an absurd grouplet or seeing it in some sites is not enough proof which surly you have not visited any Muslim country in entire of your life which although of some struggles between Jews & muslims they have lived peacefully besides each other most of time which just since start of occupation of Palestine by zionists this so called anti-semitic rhetorics have been spread in muslim world which source of it has been crypto zionist which their agenda has been persuading of Jews into migration to fake state of israel by any means even attacking to them by zionists through spreading anti-semitic rhetoric between some radical muslim groups & encouraging them to attack to Jewish community . 

Even the most anti semetic people in my village who lived under israeli rule don't wish for their women and children to be killed. When confronted with oct 7 they don't justify the women and children killed, unless they want to do kufr. 

The only pro palestinians that worry me are the ones who dehumanise israelis and fall for the same rhetoric israelis use a lot on palestinians, but this is generally the ignorant bunch, I understand where theyre coming from, as most israeli adults aren't innocent, they served in the idf, but still, it doesn't justify this attitude, it's unislamic. 

Thing is most anti semetism in the arab world is due to what israel is doing, this is no diffirent than black people overwhelmingly hating white people generations ago after the nonsense they went through.

 

This didn't happen overnight where arabs suddenly became raging anti semites and decided to freak out on jews, this was a gradual decades long series of israeli oppression which resulted in an ignorant minority of muslims being anti semetic because they can't make sense of whats happening. You can even see it when palestinian in gaza have their families butchered, they scream "what did I and my familly do to the jews to deserve it" "why do jews hate us so much".

[kadhim]

8 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

Even the most anti semetic people in my village who lived under israeli rule don't wish for their women and children to be killed. When confronted with oct 7 they don't justify the women and children killed, unless they want to do kufr. 

The only pro palestinians that worry me are the ones who dehumanise israelis and fall for the same rhetoric israelis use a lot on palestinians, but this is generally the ignorant bunch, I understand where theyre coming from, as most israeli adults aren't innocent, they served in the idf, but still, it doesn't justify this attitude, it's unislamic. 

Ok.

8 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

Thing is most anti semetism in the arab world is due to what israel is doing, this is no diffirent than black people overwhelmingly hating white people generations ago after the nonsense they went through.

I don’t want to give you too hard a time here, since I can see you at least trying to be reasonable and engage with the moral issues. I give you credit for that. Just as an FYI for reflection though, I will just observe though that this idea that “the Jews are hated because of what they do” is a pretty classic anti-Semitic trope. 

8 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

This didn't happen overnight where arabs suddenly became raging anti semites and decided to freak out on jews, this was a gradual decades long series of israeli oppression which resulted in an ignorant minority of muslims being anti semetic because they can't make sense of whats happening.

Decades when? As in after 1948? As in it wasn’t really there before 1948 and it rose after 1948 as a reaction to the state of Israel? 

I don’t buy that. There had to be a good amount of it in 1948 already. Otherwise how to explain the move by all the Arab states to try to invade and destroy Israel on basically day 1? 

The official expressed Arab states rationale at the time was that the Palestinian military capabilities were weak and disorganized, and would be overrun easily if Israel were to try to invade the Palestinian part of the partition. Ok. If we take that at face value, the solution is enter the Palestinian part and stop there, whether annexing that part of the land or staying there temporarily to help a Palestinian state get off the ground. (It seems l from what we know now that their thinking was more of the former than the latter, but whatever). 

Why try to wipe the new state of Israel out? What is the conceivable motivation for that if not at least partly rooted in some deep-seated disdain for the idea of Jews as equals to them, rendering the idea of a Jewish-run land in their neighborhood something they couldn’t stomach?

 

 

 

 

[Ahmad8888]

2 hours ago, kadhim said:

Ok.

I don’t want to give you too hard a time here, since I can see you at least trying to be reasonable and engage with the moral issues. I give you credit for that. Just as an FYI for reflection though, I will just observe though that this idea that “the Jews are hated because of what they do” is a pretty classic anti-Semitic trope. 

Decades when? As in after 1948? As in it wasn’t really there before 1948 and it rose after 1948 as a reaction to the state of Israel? 

I don’t buy that. There had to be a good amount of it in 1948 already. Otherwise how to explain the move by all the Arab states to try to invade and destroy Israel on basically day 1? 

The official expressed Arab states rationale at the time was that the Palestinian military capabilities were weak and disorganized, and would be overrun easily if Israel were to try to invade the Palestinian part of the partition. Ok. If we take that at face value, the solution is enter the Palestinian part and stop there, whether annexing that part of the land or staying there temporarily to help a Palestinian state get off the ground. (It seems l from what we know now that their thinking was more of the former than the latter, but whatever). 

Why try to wipe the new state of Israel out? What is the conceivable motivation for that if not at least partly rooted in some deep-seated disdain for the idea of Jews as equals to them, rendering the idea of a Jewish-run land in their neighborhood something they couldn’t stomach?

 

 

 

 

"I will just observe though that this idea that “the Jews are hated because of what they do” is a pretty classic anti-Semitic trope."

This is very disignenious, when anti semites use that phrase, they mean that jewish people are inherently bad and because of that everyone hates them due to the fact that they do terrible stuff due to their genetics.This is not what I am arguing, I argued the obvious, israel treated palestinians like animals, if you can't see that, then there is no reasoning with you.

I can give you one example, when they occupied my village, the idf and their lebanese collaborators/puppets litterally tortured a lot of innocent people in their prison, people I know in my village who got tortured by them, they were tortured with electricity, hanged upside down and had their heads submerged in a water bucket, they would strip them naked at times, they would step on their groins, etc... this is not to mention the 2006 war which I survived or how they treat the palestinians like the gestapo, to say they wouldn't hate them is very dishonest or naive.

 

As for the jewish exodus/migration, yes it happened over many years, as for decades I will have to fact check, point is it didn't happen very quickly like it did with the nakba, which by the way a lot of pro israelis deny in the same manner turks deny the armenian holocaust.

This exodus/migration happened due to so many factors, such as favorable land prices in occupied palestine, zionist terrorist attacks scaring away jewish people who thought arabs attacked them(this is well documented) and arab paranoia in syria and egypt due to these zionist terrorist attacks which resulted in jews being expelled(which I condemn, however egypt and syria offered jews to return, even though I don't like these nations, I have to give them credit where it's due they tried reparations), etc... 

To try and condense it into one point "arabs community had a problem with jews", is a very ignorant simplification and I will never be convinced by that ridicilous white supremacist trope which tries to paint arabs as these raging anti semites who can't stomach jews, without actually looking at the full context of what happened. If you find it hard to beleive that it wasn't overwhelmingly one factor that caused jewish people to leave for israel but multiple factors then too bad for you.

I can even give anecdotal evidence, my village had many jewish villages near them(edit: historically), we used to live peacefully with them, I can give you so many stories of palestinians saying the same thing. Am I saying it was perfect? Ofcourse not, there were defently times where jews were persecuted, but to claim arabs had this overwhelming anti jewish statement is not rooted in reality when many historians disagree with you.

As for why they tried to destroy the fascist israeli regime, it's simple, that nation was a disgusting colonial settler project, the founders of the ideology made that very clear, people like theodore hertzel, ben gurion, etc... all explicitly viewed the arabs as these subhuman savages who needed to be wiped out and they needed to establish a colony in their place, they didn't even try to hide that fact, this wasn't about them being the natives or not, they would openly brag about how they would want a colony there. You can even see statements of them despising arab jews, but saying that it was "necessary" for arab jews to be displaced to occupied palestine.  When you commit horrific crimes and commit ethnic cleansing, your neighboring countries will attack you, I'm sure there is more to this, but in general this is why they were essentially attacked, if you act like an evil person, expect the people around you to attack you, there are consequences to actions, when your state is funded on a racist premise and on ethnic cleansing then don't be suprised people try to stop you.

 

Edit: to add to this, when you commit terror attacks before creating your state don't be suprised that your neighbors will attack you.

Zionists are essentially the khawarij of the jews, they need to be stopped and their population needs help, theyre so brainwashed it's crazy. I really hope these people get the help they need just like the germans did after ww2, their fascism is spiralling out of control now.

EIther way, respectfully, I am done arguing with you, i'll ignore your replies and carry on giving news. It's clear you have an agenda, if you don't I am sorry, but I won't waste my time arguing these obvious points which you outright deny.

Edited December 20, 2023 by HusseinAbbas

[kadhim]

49 minutes ago, HusseinAbbas said:

"I will just observe though that this idea that “the Jews are hated because of what they do” is a pretty classic anti-Semitic trope."

This is very disignenious, when anti semites use that phrase, they mean that jewish people are inherently bad and because of that everyone hates them due to the fact that they do terrible stuff due to their genetics.This is not what I am arguing, I argued the obvious, israel treated palestinians like animals, if you can't see that, then there is no reasoning with you.

Like I said. I’m not accusing you necessarily. 
In fact I’m relatively sure you’re not. 

I'm simply pointing out for your instruction, that, whether you’re aware of it or not, whether it’s intentional or not, you’re echoing a classic trope. That’s all. Do with that what you will. 

56 minutes ago, HusseinAbbas said:

As for the jewish exodus/migration, yes it happened over many years, as for decades I will have to fact check, point is it didn't happen very quickly like it did with the nakba, which by the way a lot of pro israelis deny in the same manner turks deny the armenian holocaust.

This exodus/migration happened due to so many factors, such as favorable land prices in occupied palestine, zionist terrorist attacks scaring away jewish people who thought arabs attacked them(this is well documented) and arab paranoia in syria and egypt due to these zionist terrorist attacks which resulted in jews being expelled(which I condemn, however egypt and syria offered jews to return, even though I don't like these nations, I have to give them credit where it's due they tried reparations), etc... 

And like I said to Haji. I’m fully open to the argument that there were multiple key factors and forces. I’m not trying to condense anything to a single point. History on this world is basically never a simple, black and white story. My objection with Haji was his casual defensive dismissal that anti-Semitism was not a significant factor. I don’t find that plausible. Multiple simultaneous 90-100% emigrations of thousands of years old communities across over tens of countries. Favorable land prices explain a pull factor for some people, but for everyone to leave, the push factor had to be there too. 

Which, fairness, you seem to acknowledge. Khalas. That’s all I’m looking for, is for people to be real that things that were obviously there and had some part did. 
 

1 hour ago, HusseinAbbas said:

As for why they tried to destroy the fascist israeli regime, it's simple, that nation was a disgusting colonial settler project, the founders of the ideology made that very clear, people like theodore hertzel, ben gurion, etc... all explicitly viewed the arabs as these subhuman savages who needed to be wiped out and they needed to establish a colony in their place, they didn't even try to hide that fact, this wasn't about them being the natives or not, they would openly brag about how they would want a colony there. You can even see statements of them despising arab jews, but saying that it was "necessary" for arab jews to be displaced to occupied palestine.  When you commit horrific crimes and commit ethnic cleansing, your neighboring countries will attack you, I'm sure there is more to this, but in general this is why they were essentially attacked, if you act like an evil person, expect the people around you to attack you, there are consequences to actions, when your state is funded on a racist premise and on ethnic cleansing then don't be suprised people try to stop you.

Even if I were to just wholeheartedly accept all of that — and I’m always a little suspicious when people project post-modern modes of analysis into the mouths and thoughts of people living decades before that was even a thing — I still don’t think it’s a reasonable answer to the question. The lands that the UN offered and what Israel originally declared independence on was the areas where Jews bought the land legally over the years and had become the majority. That’s for the most part why the UN drew the lines as they did. So Jews being predominant in that territory was just the existing status quo. 

So if the Arabs were afraid Israel would try to expand, then park as a defensive force in the Arab Palestinian areas and respond if they make a move. Why is that not the logical strategic course of action?

Militarily, the Arab areas were higher elevation than the Israeli areas. Easy to surveil, easy to defend. 

I think you would have had an easier time making the case and would have been further along if the leaders of your forefathers had chosen that decision instead. It was an irrational, emotional, decision to launch an offensive campaign. 

As you say. Consequences to actions. The sins of the fathers visited upon the sons. 
 

 

[علوي]

On 12/18/2023 at 12:22 AM, kadhim said:

Oof. I said I was out, but this post is just another level of deceitful nonsense. 

lol. Europe? Facepalm.

Ok, genius. Explain to me why these dudes and their descendants (who probably make up close to half of Israelis today) should go to Europe of all places: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_the_Muslim_world

Namely, the close to a million Jews kicked out/pressured out of Arab countries in the 20th century by all those lovely Arabs who supposedly  “””hate Zionism, not Jews”””. 

By the way, if you want to see, numerically, what “ethnic cleansing” actually looks like in reality, as opposed to cynical propaganda rhetoric, check out the table under “Table of the Jewish population in Muslim countries,” comparing 1948 populations to populations today. 

Where are those people going to go, genius?

You're funny.

The whole idea that Judaism is a race and not a religion is a Zionist creation. They're the ones who even collaborated with the Nazis to encourage mass-migration to Palestine. They turned Judaism into an ethnicity (which would mean they are entitled to a land) rather than a religion (implying that they could live anywhere). 

Just as the Zionists betrayed mainstream Jews in Europe to encourage migration to Palestine, they did the same in the Arab world. Jews admit this.

Zionists used fear mongering (by attacking synagogues in Arab countries) to convince Arab Jews that the only place in which they are safe is occupied Palestine. 

On 12/18/2023 at 12:22 AM, kadhim said:

Do you advocate their “right to return” to the Arab countries? Are you in support of the Arab countries returning the land and property confiscated from them in that process? Something tells me you would not. (Just a wild and crazy hunch on my part)

If they are from that land, 100%, they have every right to return there. As I said, Judaism is a religion, not a race. They should live in their (real) homeland.

That is, if the rest of the Arabs are willing to forgive them for their crimes against Palestinians. Otherwise, in response to their betrayal of the Arab people, they no longer have that right and should move to the West, where they will be welcomed with open arms (because no one wants to be "anti-Semitic").

On 12/18/2023 at 12:22 AM, kadhim said:

This is unadulterated (or is it fully adulterated?) kufr-sauce.

The rules of Islam on warfare and civilians and who is and who isn’t a protected civilian is really quite clear, and however you want to deceitfully spin it to yourself, Islam simply does not agree with you on this at all, at all, at all. 

Listen (and I extend this as well to folks like @Abu Zahra who really should know better than to upvote this sort of clearly kufr thinking): If the limits of Islamic law are so intolerably constrictive to you, maybe just be honest with yourself and others and leave for another religion that fits your values better? Instead of trying to dishonestly rewrite it according to your base desires.

I'm sure you'd agree with me that Islamic laws are logical.

How is it logical to obligate the protection of violent, radical settlers? 

I'm sure you'd agree with me that Islamic laws are fair.

How is it fair to prohibit the fighting of racist, foreign thieves?

These are people who will be resurrected drowning in the blood of the slaughtered Arabs.

On 12/18/2023 at 12:22 AM, kadhim said:

The number of Jews getting targeted by Muslims and other pro-Pali people with anti-Semitic activity in Europe and the Americas — which has gone through the roof since 10/07 — gives the lie to this claim. Clearly a substantial portion of our people have a huge problem with Jews wherever they are. You look absurd when you lie about it like this.

The Hamas charter states that it is possible for Islam and Judaism to coexist peacefully.

Radicals who carry out attacks against innocent Jews are not helping the Palestinian cause, and are obviously not pleasing Allah.

On 12/18/2023 at 12:22 AM, kadhim said:

Right … You’re not advocating for their deaths. You’re just saying they all deserve death unless they all move to another continent. Do you really think no one can see through your doublespeak here? 

You guys like to cynically exploit the word “genocide.” The world saw on October 7 who are truthfully the ones in this conflict with genocide in their hearts. 

I'm not concerned with definitions. If you want to call the oppressed Arab people taking up arms against the nuclear-armed, US-backed, radical, violent, racist, Zionist entity "genocide", go for it.

Allah will not be judging us based on the definitions (of "civilian" and "genocide") set by the Zionists.

[علوي]

Just now, kadhim said:

Just as an FYI for reflection though, I will just observe though that this idea that “the Jews are hated because of what they do” is a pretty classic anti-Semitic trope.

Yeah, that's how hate works... You p*$$ off the Arabs? Expect retaliation. On Yawm al-Qiyamah people are gonna be rewarded or punished "because of what they do".

And can people please stop using "anti-Semitic" as a word for being against all Jews...? It's nonsense.

ARABS ARE SEMITES. ZIONIST SETTLERS ARE NOT.

[kadhim]

2 hours ago, علوي said:

I'm sure you'd agree with me that Islamic laws are logical.

How is it logical to obligate the protection of violent, radical settlers? 

I'm sure you'd agree with me that Islamic laws are fair.

How is it fair to prohibit the fighting of racist, foreign thieves?

These are people who will be resurrected drowning in the blood of the slaughtered Arabs.

Look. This is a (allegedly) Muslim site. I’m quoting to you the very clear Islamic teachings on this subject. 

If you don’t find the Islamic system “fair,” maybe you should leave and find some other system that fits your values better. Instead of trying so hard to make it into something it’s not. 
 

2 hours ago, علوي said:

I'm not concerned with definitions. If you want to call the oppressed Arab people taking up arms against the nuclear-armed, US-backed, radical, violent, racist, Zionist entity "genocide", go for it.

Allah will not be judging us based on the definitions (of "civilian" and "genocide") set by the Zionists.

No. He would be judging by His own standards. You know. The ones you’re openly rejecting here. 
 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by kadhim