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In the Name of God بسم الله

Israel-Hizbollah Conflict 2023/2024

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Haji 2003

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44 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

 

 

May allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) curse this terrorist, he and natanyela should disappear from this world. 
 

48 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

 

 

How many civilians died from Hezbollah attack?

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17 minutes ago, kadhim said:

That’s a rather sociopathic thing to flex about. 

It reflects the gentleman's agreement that Hizbollah and the Israelis have about proportionate response.

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3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Did Hisbullah even confirm that they were targeting and hitted civilians? 

They are retaliating.

 

10 hours ago, kadhim said:

It reflects sociopathy. 

Quite the opposite.

The conflict in the north shows that two sides can damage each other and, as a result, try to contain it.

In the South, where one side has a massive advantage over the other, it has a huge incentive to behave in a sociopathic manner to win and not to compromise.

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9 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Yes, but they don't target civilians. 

They do target Israel civilians if needed. In 2006 when many children and women got martyred, sayid Hassan said if Israhell want to kill our children and women, then they will do the same, and then Hezbollah launched a rocket in Haifa. I’m sure there were some casualties and some died too.

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34 minutes ago, Diaz said:

They do target Israel civilians if needed. In 2006 when many children and women got martyred, sayid Hassan said if Israhell want to kill our children and women, then they will do the same, and then Hezbollah launched a rocket in Haifa. I’m sure there were some casualties and some died too.

Is that allowed in Islam? 

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From Ayatullah Sistani 

By the majesty of God! By the majesty of God! Souls are sacred! Never should you do to them that which God has not deemed permissible. What great travesty it is to kill innocent souls, and what great honour it is to safeguard innocent souls, just as God, exalted is He, mentioned in His book [i.e. the Qurʾan]. The killing of an innocent soul has dangerous consequences, both in this world and in the hereafter. History has taught us that the Commander of the Faithful [i.e. ʿAli], peace be upon him, took much caution to protect the sanctity of the human soul in his wars.  He, in his historical document, said to [his companion] Malik al-Ashtar, whose friendship and proximity to ʿAli is well known, “Be vigilant! Do not spill the blood of the innocent without any right to do so, for nothing is more inviting wrath, greater in evil consequences and more effective in the decline of blessings and cutting life span more than the unlawful spilling of blood. On the Day of Reckoning, God shall judge wisely between those servants of His who spilled blood. Do not strengthen your authority by the unlawful spilling of blood, for that will surely enfeeble and weaken the authority and [may] even cause it to perish or shifting (to other who are wise). There is no excuse for you in front of God nor I, if you kill unlawfully, because that shall cause you punishment.”
If you [i.e. the fighters of the Popular Mobilisation Committees] find yourselves in an uncertain situation from which you fear the Divine Wrath, issue a vocal warning [to those fighting you], or issue a physical warning by directing your bullets in a manner which does not strike the target or cause its destruction apologizing (for such a disliked confrontation) to your Lord and taking precaution not to kill innocent souls.

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34 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Is that allowed in Islam? 

I personally do not know but according to sayid sistani it’s impermissible. I think it’s impermissible according to sayid khamenei as well.

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SHS himself said in an interview:

"If we were to come across any civilians, we need to take caution. We are fighting against the armed group. Killing, hurting, or even wounding any women, children, elderly is forbidden and unacceptable from the religious point of view."

 

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4 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

They are retaliating.

 

Quite the opposite.

The conflict in the north shows that two sides can damage each other and, as a result, try to contain it.

In the South, where one side has a massive advantage over the other, it has a huge incentive to behave in a sociopathic manner to win and not to compromise.

That’s not really an argument to negate the sociopathy of it. That’s more an argument that it’s tactically expeditious sociopathy

I will observe as well that your argument is a purely dunyawi argument of tactical material benefit. From an Islamic sharii perspective this argument unambiguously has no merit whatsoever. Civilians are off limits in Islam. 

There are certain allowances for accidental or collateral civilian deaths as a regrettable byproduct of targeting an important military target. Assuming one goes out of the way to try to avoid these side effects and acts to minimize them. 

But to deliberately target civilians to “remind” your enemy as some sort of tit-for-tat—there’s no room for this thinking Islamically. That’s clearly beyond the pale.

I’m going to give some benefit of the doubt to “The Party” though and assume, in the absence of other evidence, that this Decepticon fellow is just speaking out of turn for himself and not describing actual Party targeting policy. 

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5 minutes ago, kadhim said:

I’m going to give some benefit of the doubt to “The Party” though and assume, in the absence of other evidence, that this Decepticon fellow is just speaking out of turn for himself and not describing actual Party targeting policy. 

Yes, that seemed to be the view of people here who subsequently commented on the post.

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6 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

From Ayatullah Sistani 

By the majesty of God! By the majesty of God! Souls are sacred! Never should you do to them that which God has not deemed permissible. What great travesty it is to kill innocent souls, and what great honour it is to safeguard innocent souls, just as God, exalted is He, mentioned in His book [i.e. the Qurʾan]. The killing of an innocent soul has dangerous consequences, both in this world and in the hereafter. History has taught us that the Commander of the Faithful [i.e. ʿAli], peace be upon him, took much caution to protect the sanctity of the human soul in his wars.  He, in his historical document, said to [his companion] Malik al-Ashtar, whose friendship and proximity to ʿAli is well known, “Be vigilant! Do not spill the blood of the innocent without any right to do so, for nothing is more inviting wrath, greater in evil consequences and more effective in the decline of blessings and cutting life span more than the unlawful spilling of blood. On the Day of Reckoning, God shall judge wisely between those servants of His who spilled blood. Do not strengthen your authority by the unlawful spilling of blood, for that will surely enfeeble and weaken the authority and [may] even cause it to perish or shifting (to other who are wise). There is no excuse for you in front of God nor I, if you kill unlawfully, because that shall cause you punishment.”
If you [i.e. the fighters of the Popular Mobilisation Committees] find yourselves in an uncertain situation from which you fear the Divine Wrath, issue a vocal warning [to those fighting you], or issue a physical warning by directing your bullets in a manner which does not strike the target or cause its destruction apologizing (for such a disliked confrontation) to your Lord and taking precaution not to kill innocent souls.

In islam killing of innocent civilians is not allowed.

 

However an oppressed population, ie the palestinians and lebanese(during early 2000s or 2006), can retaliate in this way, but just because you can do it, does not mean you should do it, it's still an excess in war. It's just that because you were oppressed, Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will be more lenient towards you in judgment day. That's what I had explained to me by more knowledgeable muslims.

Edit: I put "lebanese during 2000s and 2006" because I am unsure if according to islamic standards they are still oppressed, maybe because of the shaba farms they are, I don't know how this works entirely.

And it makes sense, putting the oppressed and oppressor in the same moral pedestal is unfair, just like I would understand why the jews, polish, soviets commited excess in ww2 and killed innocent n@zi german civilians. Doesn't mean they should, but they are "allowed" to, Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wont be as harsh towards them. 

Edited by HusseinAbbas
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To add to this, israel should be very careful about their sociopathic behaviour, because it will bite them back, they're walking on a really thin line, they should be very careful about how they behave, they should read history and see how the oppressed people before them retaliated, it wasn't pretty and this time it defently wont be pretty, they should really consider putting their ego aside and give the palestinians what they want. 

Edited by HusseinAbbas
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48 minutes ago, HusseinAbbas said:

In islam killing of innocent civilians is not allowed.

 

However an oppressed population, ie the palestinians and lebanese(during early 2000s or 2006), can retaliate in this way, but just because you can do it, does not mean you should do it, it's still an excess in war. It's just that because you were oppressed, Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will be more lenient towards you in judgment day. That's what I had explained to me by more knowledgeable muslims.

Edit: I put "lebanese during 2000s and 2006" because I am unsure if according to islamic standards they are still oppressed, maybe because of the shaba farms they are, I don't know how this works entirely.

And it makes sense, putting the oppressed and oppressor in the same moral pedestal is unfair, just like I would understand why the jews, polish, soviets commited excess in ww2 and killed innocent n@zi german civilians. Doesn't mean they should, but they are "allowed" to, Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wont be as harsh towards them. 

There is no excuse for killing innocent civilian purposely. If someone targets military target but accidentally hits the civilian then it will be not consider killing civilian. But if someone bombs a target where there is literally civilians and they will die but they will make excuses that military target use them as shield then you can not bomb it. 

Also killing innocent civilians because others killed your people is not allowed. This mentality make every terrorist in west as martyr by killing civilians. 

Edited by Abu Nur
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8 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

There is no excuse for killing innocent civilian purposely. If someone targets military target but accidentally hits the civilian then it will be not consider killing civilian. But if someone bombs a target where there is literally civilians and they will die but they will make excuses that military target use them as shield then you can not bomb it. 

Also killing innocent civilians because others killed your people is not allowed. This mentality make every terrorist in west as martyr by killing civilians. 

Reread what I said I didn't justify it.

I emphasised that it is a sin, just that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will be more merciful in the day of judgment.

Edited by HusseinAbbas
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7 minutes ago, HusseinAbbas said:

Reread what I said I didn't justify it.

I emphasised that it is a sin, just that Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will be more merciful in the day of judgment.

Where it says Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will be Merciful for such an action in day of Judgement? 

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16 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Where it says Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will be Merciful for such an action in day of Judgement? 

I said where I got this from, please read my initial post carefully, I said I got this from more knowledgeable shia muslims that I talked to. To add to this, I have also seen sunni sheikhs make this statement.

It's to be confirmed if this is really a thing in shia islam, I was only trying to give an explanation from what I have heard, I never confirmed it was 100% true. 

Edited by HusseinAbbas
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@Abu Nur This is a discussion which can be had in depth. There are ayat in the Qur'an which draw a clear distinction between the oppressed and the oppressor. You can do more research on this and also look at the tafsir we have on the below ayat. 

In general, there is some right that the oppressed have to 'retaliate' and to make a proportionate response.  At the same time what sort of 'retaliation' or 'response' is something that can be discussed because there should be rules and ethics that needs to be adhered to.  But Allah will definitely treat the oppressors differently to the oppressed. One who makes a mistake and goes excessive out of years of oppression is treated differently in the eyes of God than the one who willingly decides to oppress and torture people out of greed and pure evil. If Allah treats them equally then one would logically question the Justice of God.  

But at the same time there are ethics that need to be adhered to and this does not justify any excess in any way (it is still considered a sin). One should never purposefully target civilians etc.   And tbh the resistance groups have been pretty good in this regard most of their retaliation is by targeting soldiers and military infrastructure.  

وَلَمَنِ ٱنتَصَرَ بَعْدَ ظُلْمِهِۦ فَأُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ مَا عَلَيْهِم مِّن سَبِيلٍ

As for those who retaliate after being wronged, there is no ground for action against them.

إِنَّمَا ٱلسَّبِيلُ عَلَى ٱلَّذِينَ يَظْلِمُونَ ٱلنَّاسَ وَيَبْغُونَ فِى ٱلْأَرْضِ بِغَيْرِ ٱلْحَقِّ ۚ أُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌۭ

The ground for action is only against those who oppress the people and commit tyranny in the land in violation of justice. For such there will be a painful punishment.

Edited by ali_fatheroforphans
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13 hours ago, Guest Free palestine said:

Given that the majority of the casualties on October 7th targeted by Hamas appear to be military personnel, can we then justify it?

In oct7 

2/3rd of the people hamas killed were idf soldiers.

The other 1/3rd were civilians who were majoritarly killed by israel(yes they killed their own), this has been proven by many israeli civilian eye witness testimonies, the damage done to buildings and from the fact that the idf was bombing anything that moved, they also used israelis as human shields against hamas. 

It's also to be noted that a few of these civilians were killed by palestinians that aren't affiliated with hamas that wanted to exact revenge, they managed to get through the holes hamas made on the walls.

People need to understand that hamas had goals in mind, it was to take prisoners of war ALIVE so they can exchange them for thousands of imprisoned palestinians and to humiliate israel and show it it's not as strong as it thinks it is. It makes zero sense for hamas to just go on a murderous rampage as they are portraying it to be, especially when they are trained professionals and were given clear orders to not kill civilians.

 

If hamas killed civilians it was most likely from rogue militants or from them trying to barge into civilian infrastructure, given they did not have enough time to just knock on every door before they can enter.

 

So there is nothing really to justify and please don't try and justify civilian deaths, islam has clear guidelines on it, however as I pointed out and @ali_fatheroforphans point out, there are distinctions to be made between oppressors and oppressed.

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2 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

In oct7 

2/3rd of the people hamas killed were idf soldiers.

The other 1/3rd were civilians who were majoritarly killed by israel(yes they killed their own), this has been proven by many israeli civilian eye witness testimonies, the damage done to buildings and from the fact that the idf was bombing anything that moved, they also used israelis as human shields against hamas. 

It's also to be noted that a few of these civilians were killed by palestinians that aren't affiliated with hamas that wanted to exact revenge, they managed to get through the holes hamas made on the walls.

People need to understand that hamas had goals in mind, it was to take prisoners of war ALIVE so they can exchange them for thousands of imprisoned palestinians and to humiliate israel and show it it's not as strong as it thinks it is. It makes zero sense for hamas to just go on a murderous rampage as they are portraying it to be, especially when they are trained professionals and were given clear orders to not kill civilians.

 

If hamas killed civilians it was most likely from rogue militants or from them trying to barge into civilian infrastructure, given they did not have enough time to just knock on every door before they can enter.

 

So there is nothing really to justify and please don't try and justify civilian deaths, islam has clear guidelines on it, however as I pointed out and @ali_fatheroforphans point out, there are distinctions to be made between oppressors and oppressed.

This desperate, nonsensical sort of revisionist/denialist history doesn’t help any one. Look. I can understand how, if you’ve made yourself emotionally I invested in a certain rosy, romantic view of Hamas as some sort of legitimate “resistance organization” with honor and discipline how painful it must be to confront the stark reality of October 7.

But unfortunately for you, the facts don’t align with that wishful perception. 

The real reality is abundantly documented. There’s the forensic evidence. There is the home security footage evidence. There is the footage proudly filmed by the attackers themselves and recovered from their phones. It’s not something a reasonable person can doubt a month later, and you make yourself look stunningly stupid to do so. 

The attack of October 7 consisted  primarily of a massacre of civilians. That’s reality, whether you wish to confront that reality or not. You don’t just get to make up your own private facts. 

 

Edited by kadhim
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1 hour ago, kadhim said:

This desperate, nonsensical sort of revisionist/denialist history doesn’t help any one. Look. I can understand how, if you’ve made yourself emotionally I invested in a certain rosy, romantic view of Hamas as some sort of legitimate “resistance organization” with honor and discipline how painful it must be to confront the stark reality of October 7.

But unfortunately for you, the facts don’t align with that wishful perception. 

The real reality is abundantly documented. There’s the forensic evidence. There is the home security footage evidence. There is the footage proudly filmed by the attackers themselves and recovered from their phones. It’s not something a reasonable person can doubt a month later, and you make yourself look stunningly stupid to do so. 

The attack of October 7 consisted  primarily of a massacre of civilians. That’s reality, whether you wish to confront that reality or not. You don’t just get to make up your own private facts. 

 

Ofcourse that's what you resort to, I didn't expect anything else from you. The only revisionist thing here is your outlook on islam.

Unfortunately for you oct 7 isn't what's made up to be, it's only aimed at gullible emotional pro israelis who want to use it to fuel their hatred of palestinians and to justify the genocide they are commiting, much of what I said has been confirmed by the israelis themselves such as the 2/3rd being millitary members, etc... 

As far as hamas murdering civilians it's obvious those were either rogue members or hamas members trying to barge into civilian areas(the cctv footage you refer too) and kill civilians because time was of the essence, not saying I justify it, but it isn't the massacre you're trying to paint it as, this is only your fantasy.

There are many evidences of israelis killing their own. An example of this is the time hamas members along with israeli hostages were inside of a building, the israeli hostages told the idf that the hamas members wanted to surrender, what did the idf do? They bombed the building and killed hamas militants along with most of the hostages inside of the building, this is just one incident of the lunacy of the idf. You can whine as much as you want but it wont get rid of the israeli eyewitness testimonies. 

 

Also if I may ask, forensic evidence according to who? The same government that lies consistently? Believing them at this point is like believing the man who cried wolf, you'll be a fool to do so, especially after this calendar nonsense they pulled out yesterday or the beheaded babies, shireen abu akleh, etc...

 

Anyways I have stuff to do, if you want to beleive their narrative and that it was as bad as the massacre nanjing, be my guest.

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May God guide you out of this darkness. 

The reason you feel the need to tell these absurd lies to yourself and others is kind of obvious. Because deep down you realize that it matters

When one allows oneself to comprehend the sheer scale and nature of the animalistic brutality of this Hamas pogrom—the gang rapes, the kids shot point blank in their cribs, the people decapitated with shovels, the children tied together with their parents and burned alive, the corpse desecrations—all powered by raging anti-Semitism and a pocket full of Captagon—this forces someone who is a properly functioning, morally intact human being to reevaluate their understanding of what the “Palestinian resistance” is today, as well as the other side’s military response to the atrocity. 

The problem is, you’re too emotionally invested  to honestly absorb that reality, so you lie to yourself instead and filter your information diet to only hear the monsters who tell you the lies you want to hear. 

A reminder that this is precisely what kufr looks like. 

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@kadhim

We've seen the claim of the other side and unfortunately you were not able to provide anything with substance. The articles you linked were full of flaws I honestly did not know where to start. 

Please try to link something better or very good professional paid actors who might make me believe the lies and do a better job. Till now all these actors have been awful.  

 

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16 minutes ago, kadhim said:

May God guide you out of this darkness. 

The reason you feel the need to tell these absurd lies to yourself and others is kind of obvious. Because deep down you realize that it matters

When one allows oneself to comprehend the sheer scale and nature of the animalistic brutality of this Hamas pogrom—the gang rapes, the kids shot point blank in their cribs, the people decapitated with shovels, the children tied together with their parents and burned alive, the corpse desecrations—all powered by raging anti-Semitism and a pocket full of Captagon—this forces someone who is a properly functioning, morally intact human being to reevaluate their understanding of what the “Palestinian resistance” is today, as well as the other side’s military response to the atrocity. 

The problem is, you’re too emotionally invested  to honestly absorb that reality, so you lie to yourself instead and filter your information diet to only hear the monsters who tell you the lies you want to hear. 

A reminder that this is precisely what kufr looks like. 

:hahaha: sure buddy accuse me of kufr, I have given israelis way to many chances despite their army occupying and torturing many people from my village, there is nothing emotional here, I have given them chances to justify themselves more than most people.

Thing is, after giving them the benefit of the doubt hundreds of times I have seen them lie over and over again, twist the truth by telling half truths and I'm frankly sick of it and I'm done wasting time with their garbage.

If you want to call me emotional because I disagree with you so be it, I will take it as a badge of honour from a dishonest person like you akhi, unlike you I wont stoop low and say what you are doing is kufr despite your questionable takes on islam.

Edited by HusseinAbbas
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21 minutes ago, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@kadhim

We've seen the claim of the other side and unfortunately you were not able to provide anything with substance. The articles you linked were full of flaws I honestly did not know where to start. 

Please try to link something better or very good professional paid actors who might make me believe the lies and do a better job. Till now all these actors have been awful.  

 

They should hire the cia, they're legit horrible at this, it's like they stopped caring about their arabic audience and want to only target their gullible western audience, their video yesterday made me explode in laughter, the calendar thing was the lowest I've seen them go, it's like Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) put a curse on them to only made bad propaganda.

Edited by HusseinAbbas
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On 11/14/2023 at 7:13 PM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

@kadhim

We've seen the claim of the other side and unfortunately you were not able to provide anything with substance. The articles you linked were full of flaws I honestly did not know where to start. 

Please try to link something better or very good professional paid actors who might make me believe the lies and do a better job. Till now all these actors have been awful.  

It’s not my job or anyone’s job to re-litigate reality for you on this any more than it’s anyone’s responsibility to prove the sky is blue. 

Get over yourself. 

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