"Ghuluw" according to Imams

[Cool]

Salam!

It appears that ghuluw party do not mentions the following ahadith when discussing what ghuluw is and when accusing others of ghuluw!

1. 

عن أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) أنه قال: ((لا تتجاوزوا بنا العبودية ، ثم قولوا فينا ما شئتم ولن تبلغوا، وإياكم والغلو كغلو النصارى فإني بريء من الغالين)) الحديث. (الاحتجاج ج2/ 23)

2.

عن الامام الصادق (عليه السلام): (أجعلونا عبيداً مخلوقين وقولوا فينا ما شئتم) (الثاقب في المناقب/ 402، الخرائج والجرائج ج2/ 735).

3.

وعنه (عليه السلام): (أجعلوا لنا رباً نؤوب إليه وقولوا فينا ما شئتم) (المحتضر/ 65،مختصر بصائر الدرجات / 204).

4.

عن كامل التمار قال: (كنت عند أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) ذات يوم فقال لي: يا كامل إجعل لنا رباً نؤوب إليه وقولا ما شئتم ، قال : قلت ُ : نجعل لكم رباًً تتؤوبون إليه ونقول فيكم ما شئنا؟! قال: فاستوى جالساً، ثم قال: وعسى أن نقول: ما خرج إليكم من علمنا إلا ألفاً غير معطوفة)) (رجال الكشي/ 307 حديث 556)

5. 

وعنهم (عليهم السلام): ((نزهونا عن الربوبية وارفعوا عنا حظوظ البشرية، فلا يقاس بنا أحداً من الناس)) الحديث (مشارق أنوار اليقين / 101).

6.

وعنهم (عليهم السلام): ((قولوا في فضلنا ما شئتم بعد أن تثبتونا عبيداً مربوبين)) (الصراط المستقيم ج1/ 95).

7.

وعن أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) في حديث معرفتهم بالنورانية المشهور: ((يا أبا ذر أنا عبد الله عز وجل وخليفته على عباده ، لا تجعلونا أرباباً وقولوا في فضلنا ما شئتم فإنكم لا تبلغون كنه ما فينا ولا نهايته ، فإن الله عز وجل قد أعطانا أكبر وأعظم مما يصفه واصفكم أو يخطر على قلب أحدكم ، فإذا عرفتمونا هكذا فأنتم المؤمنون)) (بحار الأنوار 26/2)

8.

وعنه (عليه السلام) في نفس الحديث: ((لا تسمونا أرباباً وقولوا في فضلنا ما شئتم فإنكم لن تبلغوا من فضلنا كنه ما جعله الله لنا ولا معشار العشر)) (بحار الأنوار 26/ 6).

9.

وعنه (عليه السلام): (( إياكم والغلو فينا، قولوا إنا عبيد مربوبون، واعتقدوا في فضلنا ما شئتم )) (غرر الحكم/ 159).

10.

وعنه (عليه السلام) في نفس الحديث: ((لا تسمونا أرباباً وقولوا في فضلنا ما شئتم فإنكم لن تبلغوا من فضلنا كنه ما جعله الله لنا ولا معشار العشر)) (بحار الأنوار 26/ 6).

There is a tawatur in these sort of reports, clearly indicating their high status and our inability to comprehend and attain that status. 

So Ghuluw according to the above reports is not that which the Imams never claimed for themselves. Ghuluw here is to attribute to them divinity. Either in terms of knowledge or either in terms of power. 

 

[Cool]

Perhaps some would say I am not giving the english translation of above ahadith. But I am adding another sound hadith of Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) where he (عليه السلام) reported to have said:

"Warn your youth about the exaggerators, lest they ruin their religious beliefs, for truly the exaggerators are the worst of God's creatures; they try and belittle the majesty of God while claiming lordship for the slaves of God."

(Ibid., p. 265)

 

[In Gods Name]

From Saduq's I`tiqad:

وكان الرضا - عليه السلام - يقول في دعائه:

And ar-Rida عليه السلام used to say in his du`:

اللهم إني أبرأ إليك من الحول والقوة، فلا حول ولا قوة إلا بك.

Allahumma, verily I disassociate myself before you from the strength and the power. There is no strength or power but with You.

اللهم إني أبرأ إليك من الذين ادعوا لنا ما ليس لنا بحق.

Allahumma, verily I disassociate myself before You from those who claim for us what is not true for us.

اللهم إني أبرأ إليك من الذين قالوا فينا ما لم نقله في أنفسنا.

Allahumma, verily I disassociate myself before You from those who say regarding us what we have not said regarding ourselves.

اللهم لك الخلق ومنك الأمر، وإياك نعبد وإياك نستعين.

Allahumma, to You belongs creation and from You is the command; "You do we worship and from You do we seek help" (1:4).

اللهم أنت خالقنا وخالق آبائنا الأولين وآبائنا الآخرين.

Allahumma, You are our Creator, and the Creator of our first fathers and our last fathers.

اللهم لا تليق الربوبية إلا بك، ولا تصلح الإلهية إلا لك، فالعن النصارى الذين صغروا عظمتك، والعن المضاهين لقولهم من بريتك.

Allahumma, lordship is not suitable but with You; and divinity befits none except to for You. So curse the Christians who belittled Your greatness, and curse the resemblers to Your creature (i.e. who assert Allah resembles His creation) for their saying.

اللهم إنا عبيدك وأبناء عبيدك، لا نملك لأنفسنا ضرا ولا نفعا ولا موتا ولا حياة ولا نشورا.

Allahumma, verily we are Your slaves and sons of Your slaves. We have no power over ourselves in respect of benefit, death, life or resurrection.

اللهم من زعم أننا أرباب فنحن إليك منه براء، ومن زعم أن إلينا الخلق وعلينا الرزق فنحن إليك منه براء كبراءة عيسى - عليه السلام - من النصارى.

Allahumma, whoever who claims that we are lords (arbab, pl. of rabb) - we are disassociated before You from him. And whoever claims that to us is the (power of) creation and (providing) sustenance, - we are disassociated before You from him, like the disassociation of `Isa عليه السلام from the Christians.

اللهم إنا لم ندعهم إلى ما يزعمون، فلا تؤاخذنا بما يقولون واغفر لنا ما يزعمون.

Allahumma, we have never called them to what they claim; so do not take (i.e. punish) us for what they say and forgive us for what they claim.

رب لا تذر على الأرض من الكافرين ديارا * إنك إن تذرهم يضلوا عبادك ولا يلدوا إلا فاجرا كفار

"My Lord, leave not upon the earth of the unbelievers even one. Surely, if Thou leavest them, they will lead Thy servants astray, and will beget none but unbelieving immoral ones.” (71:26-27)

[In Gods Name]

4 hours ago, Cool said:

So Ghuluw according to the above reports is not that which the Imams never claimed for themselves. Ghuluw here is to attribute to them divinity. Either in terms of knowledge or either in terms of power. 

 

Ghuluw is, as per Imam Ridha and the other Aimmah, to claim for the Imams what you do not have evidence they claimed for themselves.

Why on earth would you be claiming for the Imams something which you don't have evidence they even claimed for themselves anyway?

[Abu Nur]

5 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Ghuluw is, as per Imam Ridha and the other Aimmah, to claim for the Imams what you do not have evidence they claimed for themselves.

Why on earth would you be claiming for the Imams something which you don't have evidence they even claimed for themselves anyway?

Of course, but the problem is that we have narrators that can not necessarily consider Ghali, example are Jābir ibn Yazīd, Mufadhal ibn Umar, Mu’alla ibn Khunays, Mohammad ibn Sinān and Sahl ibn Ziyād. They had full belief in fundamentals of faith and believed in sharia. Good example about this can be read here. 

But there were others who clearly were Ghali and cursed by Imams (عليه السلام). Mostly they gave God incarnate to Imams, then they gave attributes of God to Imams (عليه السلام). 

It is enough for us to believe that Imams (عليه السلام) inherited all the knowledge of Prophets (عليه السلام) and they also know the ilm of ghayb that was taught to our beloved prophet muhammad (saws). And they also can perform miracles by permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). And they also receive and can ask for new knowledge from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). And when they pray for Rizq they will be given accordingly to wisdom of God. If they ask for power they will be given accordingly to wisdom of God.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Abu Nur

[Abu Nur]

8 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

And whoever claims that to us is the (power of) creation and (providing) sustenance, - we are disassociated before You from him, like the disassociation of `Isa عليه السلام from the Christians.

Here I understand that they started to give attributes of God of unlimitedness power and sustenance to Imams (عليه السلام) which is exactly what Christians claim about Isa ibn Maryam (عليه السلام). 

But what about the limited attributes to Imams, where people can ask them for help and Imams can answer them. Or Imams (عليه السلام) can visit their shias and pray for them to be healed for example, the famous case of miracle of hurr al amali when he was sick and Imam (عليه السلام) healed him by permission of Allah? At least our Imams help us but they do with limitedness. 

[Cool]

10 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Allahumma, verily I disassociate myself before You from those who claim for us what is not true for us.

اللهم إني أبرأ إليك من الذين قالوا فينا ما لم نقله في أنفسنا.

Allahumma, verily I disassociate myself before You from those who say regarding us what we have not said regarding ourselves.

Instead of highlighting these two sentences, it would be better for you to focus on what he (عليه السلام) said afterwards. 

 

10 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Allahumma, whoever who claims that we are lords (arbab, pl. of rabb) - we are disassociated before You from him. And whoever claims that to us is the (power of) creation and (providing) sustenance, - we are disassociated before You from him, like the disassociation of `Isa عليه السلام from the Christians.

The above are in line with what has been mentioned by me earlier:

12 hours ago, Cool said:

Ghuluw here is to attribute to them divinity. Either in terms of knowledge or either in terms of power. 

 

[Cool]

2 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Here I understand that they started to give attributes of God of unlimitedness power and sustenance to Imams (عليه السلام) which is exactly what Christians claim about Isa ibn Maryam (عليه السلام). 

Exactly!

I sometimes think why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned "ilmun min al-kitab" in the following verse:

قَالَ الَّذِي عِنْدَهُ عِلْمٌ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ أَنَا آتِيكَ بِهِ قَبْلَ أَنْ يَرْتَدَّ إِلَيْكَ طَرْفُكَ ۚ فَلَمَّا رَآهُ مُسْتَقِرًّا عِنْدَهُ قَالَ هَٰذَا مِنْ فَضْلِ رَبِّي لِيَبْلُوَنِي أَأَشْكُرُ أَمْ أَكْفُرُ ۖ وَمَنْ شَكَرَ فَإِنَّمَا يَشْكُرُ لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ كَفَرَ فَإِنَّ رَبِّي غَنِيٌّ كَرِيمٌ {40}

27:40) One who had the knowledge of the Book said: I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye. Then when he saw it settled beside him, he said: This is of the grace of my Lord that He may try me whether I am grateful or ungrateful; and whoever is grateful, he is grateful only for his own soul, and whoever is ungrateful, then surely my Lord is Self-sufficient, Honored.

This means the phrase "knowledge of the book" has something to do with performing the miracle i.e., bringing the throne within the blink of an eye. 

The Imams عليهم السلام according to us, are the bearers of the "knowledge of the book", they are the misdaaq of و من عنده علم الكتاب and according to Quran:

وَلَوْ أَنَّ قُرْآنًا سُيِّرَتْ بِهِ الْجِبَالُ أَوْ قُطِّعَتْ بِهِ الْأَرْضُ أَوْ كُلِّمَ بِهِ الْمَوْتَىٰ ۗ بَلْ لِلَّهِ الْأَمْرُ جَمِيعًا ۗ 

13:31) And even if there were a Quran with which the mountains were made to pass away, or the earth were travelled over with it, or the dead were made to speak thereby; nay! the commandment is wholly Allah's,

I believe the "knowledge of the book" enables all these powers in the bearer, by Allah's permission as to Him belongs the Amr & the khalq!

الا له الخلق و الامر

It is quite interesting in the ahadith quoted in the OP that Imam (عليه السلام) has said this:

وقولوا في فضلنا ما شئتم 

(And say whatever you want about our virtue) 

The only prohibition is to deny them the divinity (in terms of both knowledge & power). 

I am avoiding to include "Irfaan" here, otherwise people will issue fatwa against me and declare me a kafir or a mushrik lol. 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

16 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Allahumma, verily I disassociate myself before You from those who say regarding us what we have not said regarding ourselves.

 

This doesn't really apply in this case. here have a look at this narration:

أخبرني جماعة عن أبي المفضل محمد بن عبد الله بن محمد بن عبيد الله بن المطلب رحمه الله قال: حدثنا أبو الحسين محمد بن بحر بن سهل الشيباني الرهني قال: أخبرنا علي بن الحارث عن سعد بن المنصور الجواشني قال: أخبرنا أحمد بن علي البديلي قال: أخبرني أبي عن سدير الصيرفي قال: دخلت أنا والمفضل بن عمر وداود بن كثير الرقي وأبو بصير وأبان بن تغلب على مولانا الصادق عليه السلام، فرأيناه جالسا على التراب وعليه مسح خيبري مطرف بلا جيب مقصر الكمين، وهو يبكي بكاء الوالهة الثكلى ذات الكبد الحري، قد نال الحزن من وجنتيه وشاع التغير في عارضيه وأبلى الدمع محجريه، وهو يقول: سيدي، غيبتك نفت رقادي، وضيقت على مهادي، وابتزت مني راحة فؤادي. سيدي، غيبتك أوصلت مصائبي بفجائع الأبد، وفقد الواحد بعد الواحد بفناء الجمع والعدد، فما أحس بدمعة ترقأ من عيني وأنين يفشا من صدري. قال سدير: فاستطارت عقولنا ولهاً وتصدعت قلوبنا جزعاًمن ذلك الخطب الهائل والحادث الغائل. فظننا أنه سمت لمكروهة قارعة أو حلت به من الدهر بائقة. فقلنا: لا أبكى الله عينيك يا ابن خير الورى! من أية حادثة تستذرف دمعتك وتستمطر عبرتك؟ وأية حالة حتمت عليك هذا المأتم؟ قـال: فزفر الصـادق عليـه السـلام زفـرة انتفـخ منها جـوفه واشتد منها خوفه، فقال: ويكم، إني نظرت صبيحة هذا اليوم في كتاب الجفر المشتمل على علم البلايا والمنايا وعلم ما كان وما يكون إلى يوم القيامة

A group has narrated from Abu Mufaddal Muhammad bin Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Ubaidullah bin Matlab that he said: Narrated to me Abul Husain Muhammad bin Bahr bin Sahl Shaibani Rahni from Ali bin Harith from Saad bin Mansur Jawashini from Ahmad bin Ali Budaili from his father from Sudair Sairafi that he said: I, along with Mufaddal Ibn Umar, Abu Basir, Aban Ibn Taghlib came to our master, Abu Abdullah Ja’far Ibn Muhammad ((عليه السلام)) and found him sitting on bare earth. He had a Khaibari woolen cloak ringed at the neck, did not have any pockets and had short sleeves. He was crying like a deeply afflicted and bereaved mother of a child from the depths of a heart that was full of mourning. Grief had appeared in the sides of his face and the change had spread on both his cheeks and tears were rolling on the sides of his visage, as he was saying: “My master, your occultation has taken away my night’s sleep; it has narrowed my bed for me and has snatched away solace from my heart. My master, your occultation has turned my tragedies into the atrocities of eternity! The loss of one after the other perishes a crowd and a multitude. No more I feel the tear that drops from my eye and the moan that faintly leaves my chest from the places of tragedies and past calamities, except that it exemplifies before my eye the greatest and cruelest of catastrophes, the most dismal and disdainful mishaps, mixed with your wrath and calamities coupled with your anger.” Sudair says: Our hearts and minds were overwhelmed by that terrifying scene. We thought that it was a sign of a dreadful shattering or times have brought him a calamity. So we said: “May Allah, O son of the best of the creation, never bring tears into your eyes. Why are you weeping and what has caused this mourning?” Sudair says: Imam Sadiq ((عليه السلام)) took a deep sigh that his chest expanded and his grief enhanced and he said: “I looked at the Book of Jafr this morning, and that is the book that encompasses the knowledge of deaths, trials and tribulations and the knowledge of all that has been and all that will be until Judgment Day,

kitab Al-Ghayba https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/27/1/27/17

You can't say we're attributing something to Imams (عليه السلام) that they never claimed for themselves. Also before jumping on chain of this narration, just see its content and how it matches up with Ayahs brother @Cool quoted. If we can find evidence for Hadith in Quran & Sunnah, then its without a doubt Sahih. However for the other ahadith like the one from rijal e kashi.

And sometimes, a few things or knowledge of certain things can be concealed from Aima (عليه السلام) for reasons that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows. But it doesn't mean they negate these hadiths or these hadith negate them.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

And by the way, there's a chapter in Al-Kafi:

باب أن الأئمة عليهم السلام يعلمون علم ما كان وما يكون وأنه لا يخفى عليهم الشئ صلوات الله عليهم

The Imams ((عليه السلام)) do have the knowledge of what was and will be, and that nothing is unknown to them

If believing in it is Ghuluw, then declare Sheikh Kyulani as Ghali LOL. Here are a few hadiths from that chapter:

أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ وَمُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الْحُسَيْنِ عَنْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ بْنِ إِسْحَاقَ الاحْمَرِ عَنْ عَبْدِ الله بْنِ حَمَّادٍ عَنْ سَيْفٍ التَّمَّارِ قَالَ كُنَّا مَعَ أَبِي عَبْدِ الله ((عليه السلام)) جَمَاعَةً مِنَ الشِّيعَةِ فِي الْحِجْرِ فَقَالَ عَلَيْنَا عَيْنٌ فَالْتَفَتْنَا يَمْنَةً وَيَسْرَةً فَلَمْ نَرَ أَحَداً فَقُلْنَا لَيْسَ عَلَيْنَا عَيْنٌ فَقَالَ وَرَبِّ الْكَعْبَةِ وَرَبِّ الْبَنِيَّةِ ثَلاثَ مَرَّاتٍ لَوْ كُنْتُ بَيْنَ مُوسَى وَالْخَضِرِ لاخْبَرْتُهُمَا أَنِّي أَعْلَمُ مِنْهُمَا وَلانْبَأْتُهُمَا بِمَا لَيْسَ فِي أَيْدِيهِمَا لانَّ مُوسَى وَالْخَضِرَ (عَلَيْهما السَّلام) أُعْطِيَا عِلْمَ مَا كَانَ وَلَمْ يُعْطَيَا عِلْمَ مَا يَكُونُ وَمَا هُوَ كَائِنٌ حَتَّى تَقُومَ السَّاعَةُ وَقَدْ وَرِثْنَاهُ مِنْ رَسُولِ الله ﷺ وِرَاثَةً

Imam ((عليه السلام)) said the following. “An eye is watching over us.” We then looked right and left and did not see anyone. We said, “No eye is watching over us.” The Imam ((عليه السلام)) said, “I swear by the Lord of the Ka‘ba. I swear by the Lord of the House.” He said so three times. “Had I been with Moses and al-Khidr I would have told them that I had more than they did and would have informed them of what they had no knowledge. This is because Moses and al-Khidr were given the knowledge of what was in the past and they were given the knowledge what will be in future or what will exist up to the Day of Judgment while we have inherited all of them from the Messenger of Allah as heirs.”

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنْ يُونُسَ بْنِ يَعْقُوبَ عَنِ الْحَارِثِ بْنِ الْمُغِيرَةِ وَعِدَّةٍ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا مِنْهُمْ عَبْدُ الاعْلَى وَأَبُو عُبَيْدَةَ وَعَبْدُ الله بْنُ بِشْرٍ الْخَثْعَمِيُّ سَمِعُوا أَبَا عَبْدِ الله ((عليه السلام)) يَقُولُ إِنِّي لاعْلَمُ مَا فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَمَا فِي الارْضِ وَأَعْلَمُ مَا فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَأَعْلَمُ مَا فِي النَّارِ وَأَعْلَمُ مَا كَانَ وَمَا يَكُونُ قَالَ ثُمَّ مَكَثَ هُنَيْئَةً فَرَأَى أَنَّ ذَلِكَ كَبُرَ عَلَى مَنْ سَمِعَهُ مِنْهُ فَقَالَ عَلِمْتُ ذَلِكَ مِنْ كِتَابِ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ إِنَّ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ يَقُولُ فِيهِ تِبْيَانُ كُلِّ شَيْ‏ءٍ.

they heard abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام)) say the following. “I certainly know what is the heavens and what is in the earth. I know what is in paradise and what is the fire. I know what was there and what will be there.” The narrator has said that the Imam ((عليه السلام)) paused for a while and found that what he had just said was much heavy for the audience then he ((عليه السلام)) said, “I learned all of it from the book of Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High. Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has said, “In it there is the clarification of all things.”

عَلِيُّ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ سَهْلٍ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَبِي نَصْرٍ عَنْ عَبْدِ الْكَرِيمِ عَنْ جَمَاعَةَ بْنِ سَعْدٍ الْخَثْعَمِيِّ أَنَّهُ قَالَ كَانَ الْمُفَضَّلُ عِنْدَ أَبِي عَبْدِ الله ((عليه السلام)) فَقَالَ لَهُ الْمُفَضَّلُ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ يَفْرِضُ الله طَاعَةَ عَبْدٍ عَلَى الْعِبَادِ وَيَحْجُبُ عَنْهُ خَبَرَ السَّمَاءِ قَالَ لا الله أَكْرَمُ وَأَرْحَمُ وَأَرْأَفُ بِعِبَادِهِ مِنْ أَنْ يَفْرِضَ طَاعَةَ عَبْدٍ عَلَى الْعِبَادِ ثُمَّ يَحْجُبَ عَنْهُ خَبَرَ السَّمَاءِ صَبَاحاً وَمَسَاءً

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Aabu Nasr from ‘Abd al-Karim from Jama‘a ibn Sa‘d al-Khath‘ami who has said that al-Mufaddal was in the presence of abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام)). Al-Mufaddal asked the Imam ((عليه السلام)) the following. “May Allah, take my soul in service for your cause, does Allah command (his) servants to obey a servant and hide the news of the heavens from him?” The Imam ((عليه السلام)) said, Allah is by far much honorable, kind and caring towards His servants than to command them to obey a servant (of His) and then hide form him the news of the heavens mornings and evenings.”

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ ابْنِ رِئَابٍ عَنْ ضُرَيْسٍ الْكُنَاسِيِّ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ ((عليه السلام)) يَقُولُ وَعِنْدَهُ أُنَاسٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِهِ عَجِبْتُ مِنْ قَوْمٍ يَتَوَلَّوْنَا وَيَجْعَلُونَا أَئِمَّةً وَيَصِفُونَ أَنَّ طَاعَتَنَا مُفْتَرَضَةٌ عَلَيْهِمْ كَطَاعَةِ رَسُولِ الله ﷺ ثُمَّ يَكْسِرُونَ حُجَّتَهُمْ وَيَخْصِمُونَ أَنْفُسَهُمْ بِضَعْفِ قُلُوبِهِمْ فَيَنْقُصُونَا حَقَّنَا وَيَعِيبُونَ ذَلِكَ عَلَى مَنْ أَعْطَاهُ الله بُرْهَانَ حَقِّ مَعْرِفَتِنَا وَالتَّسْلِيمَ لامْرِنَا أَ تَرَوْنَ أَنَّ الله تَبَارَكَ وَتَعَالَى افْتَرَضَ طَاعَةَ أَوْلِيَائِهِ عَلَى عِبَادِهِ ثُمَّ يُخْفِي عَنْهُمْ أَخْبَارَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالارْضِ وَيَقْطَعُ عَنْهُمْ مَوَادَّ الْعِلْمِ فِيمَا يَرِدُ عَلَيْهِمْ مِمَّا فِيهِ قِوَامُ دِينِهِمْ فَقَالَ لَهُ حُمْرَانُ جُعِلْتُ فِدَاكَ أَ رَأَيْتَ مَا كَانَ مِنْ أَمْرِ قِيَامِ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَبِي طَالِبٍ وَالْحَسَنِ وَالْحُسَيْنِ ((عليه السلام)) وَخُرُوجِهِمْ وَقِيَامِهِمْ بِدِينِ الله عَزَّ ذِكْرُهُ وَمَا أُصِيبُوا مِنْ قَتْلِ الطَّوَاغِيتِ إِيَّاهُمْ وَالظَّفَرِ بِهِمْ حَتَّى قُتِلُوا وَغُلِبُوا فَقَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ ((عليه السلام)) يَا حُمْرَانُ إِنَّ الله تَبَارَكَ وَتَعَالَى قَدْ كَانَ قَدَّرَ ذَلِكَ عَلَيْهِمْ وَقَضَاهُ وَأَمْضَاهُ وَحَتَمَهُ عَلَى سَبِيلِ الاخْتِيَارِ ثُمَّ أَجْرَاهُ فَبِتَقَدُّمِ عِلْمٍ إِلَيْهِمْ مِنْ رَسُولِ الله ﷺ قَامَ عَلِيٌّ وَالْحَسَنُ وَالْحُسَيْنُ ((عليه السلام)) وَبِعِلْمٍ صَمَتَ مَنْ صَمَتَ مِنَّا وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ يَا حُمْرَانُ حَيْثُ نَزَلَ بِهِمْ مَا نَزَلَ مِنْ أَمْرِ الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ وَإِظْهَارِ الطَّوَاغِيتِ عَلَيْهِمْ سَأَلُوا الله عَزَّ وَجَلَّ أَنْ يَدْفَعَ عَنْهُمْ ذَلِكَ وَأَلَحُّوا عَلَيْهِ فِي طَلَبِ إِزَالَةِ مُلْكِ الطَّوَاغِيتِ وَذَهَابِ مُلْكِهِمْ إِذاً لاجَابَهُمْ وَدَفَعَ ذَلِكَ عَنْهُمْ ثُمَّ كَانَ انْقِضَاءُ مُدَّةِ الطَّوَاغِيتِ وَذَهَابُ مُلْكِهِمْ أَسْرَعَ مِنْ سِلْكٍ مَنْظُومٍ انْقَطَعَ فَتَبَدَّدَ وَمَا كَانَ ذَلِكَ الَّذِي أَصَابَهُمْ يَا حُمْرَانُ لِذَنْبٍ اقْتَرَفُوهُ وَلا لِعُقُوبَةِ مَعْصِيَةٍ خَالَفُوا الله فِيهَا وَلَكِنْ لِمَنَازِلَ وَكَرَامَةٍ مِنَ الله أَرَادَ أَنْ يَبْلُغُوهَا فَلا تَذْهَبَنَّ بِكَ الْمَذَاهِبُ فِيهِمْ.

heard abu Ja‘far ((عليه السلام)) the following to an audience of his companions. “What an strange case is the case with a group of followers! They acknowledge us as the Divine authority over themselves, accept us as their Imam and say that obedience to us is obligatory just as is the case with the Messenger of Allah. They then destroy the veracity of their belief as such and dispute against their own selves due to weakness of their hearts. They then diminish our right and blame those whom Allah has granted evidence to know us as it should be and the (abulity) to submit themselves to our Divine authority. Do you not consider that how would Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, make it obligatory to obey those who possess Divine authority over his servants and then hide from them (people who possess Divine authority) `the new of the heaves and the earth? How would He cut them off of the sources of knowledge that might come to them to maintain their religion?” Humran then said to the Imam ((عليه السلام)), “May Allah, take my soul in service for your cause, how would you explain the case of the uprising of Ali ibn abu Talib, al-Hassan and al-Husayn ((عليه السلام))? They came out and rose up for the cause of Allah, Whose mention is so Majestic. How much they suffered and how mercilessly were they murdered at the hands of the rebels? They were defeated, murdered and over powered.” Abu Ja‘far ((عليه السلام)) then said, “O Humran, Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, had determined it on them. He had decreed, approved and made it unavoidable though the voluntary manner. He then allowed to take place. It, thus, happened with a pre-existing knowledge that had come to them from the Messenger of Allah. Ali al-Hassan and al-Husayn ((عليه السلام)) rose up for the cause of Allah with full knowledge of the consequences and remained silent from us those who remained silent. Had they, O Humran, when facing what Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, made them to face and suffer defeat at the hands of the rebels, asked Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, to remove their suffering and would implore Him to destroy the government and kingdom of the rebels He would have answered their prayers and would grant them relief. In such case the destruction of the governments of the rebels and the ending of their time would take place quicker than the dispersal under a great pressure, of beads threaded together. The suffering, O Humran, that befell them, because of the sins that they might have committed or the punishment for their opposition to Allah. It was because of the high marvelous position that Allah had prepared and wanted them to reaCh Do not let people’s opinions take you away from the right path.”

(Majlisi said Sahih)

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْعَزِيزِ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الْفُضَيْلِ عَنْ أَبِي حَمْزَةَ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ ((عليه السلام)) يَقُولُ لا وَالله لا يَكُونُ عَالِمٌ جَاهِلاً أَبَداً عَالِماً بِشَيْ‏ءٍ جَاهِلاً بِشَيْ‏ءٍ ثُمَّ قَالَ الله أَجَلُّ وَأَعَزُّ وَأَكْرَمُ مِنْ أَنْ يَفْرِضَ طَاعَةَ عَبْدٍ يَحْجُبُ عَنْهُ عِلْمَ سَمَائِهِ وَأَرْضِهِ ثُمَّ قَالَ لا يَحْجُبُ ذَلِكَ عَنْهُ.

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ‘Umar ibn ‘Abd al-‘Aziz from Muhammad ibn al-Fudayl from abu Hamzah who has that he heard abu Ja‘far ((عليه السلام)) say the following. “No, I swear by Allah, the scholar (who possesses Divine authority) is never ignorant or knowledgeable in something and ignorant of other things. The Imam ((عليه السلام)) then said, “Allah, the Most Holy, Most High and Most Gracious, is far exalted and above imposing the obedience of a servant (of His) on the others and then hide the knowledge of things in the heavens and on earth from him and then say, “Do not hide that from him.”

That all hadiths except for one from the chapter.

Also focus on the title of chapter, أن الأئمة عليهم السلام يعلمون علم ما كان وما يكون وأنه لا يخفى عليهم الشئ . it says alot about beliefs of Shia like Sheikh Kulayni.

 

[In Gods Name]

23 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Of course, but the problem is that we have narrators that can not necessarily consider Ghali, example are Jābir ibn Yazīd, Mufadhal ibn Umar, Mu’alla ibn Khunays, Mohammad ibn Sinān and Sahl ibn Ziyād. They had full belief in fundamentals of faith and believed in sharia. Good example about this can be read here. 

But there were others who clearly were Ghali and cursed by Imams (عليه السلام). Mostly they gave God incarnate to Imams, then they gave attributes of God to Imams (عليه السلام). 

It is enough for us to believe that Imams (عليه السلام) inherited all the knowledge of Prophets (عليه السلام) and they also know the ilm of ghayb that was taught to our beloved prophet muhammad (saws). And they also can perform miracles by permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). And they also receive and can ask for new knowledge from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). And when they pray for Rizq they will be given accordingly to wisdom of God. If they ask for power they will be given accordingly to wisdom of God.

I've read Abu Tufayls post. He was knowledgable, but there were too many glaring errors in his post. He tries to exonerate a Ghali like Muhammed b. Sinan.

However, i would rather take the views of giants like Ghada'iri (deemed the most reliablebook of rijal in the field of hadith by Ayatullah al-Udhma Sayed Ali Hussaini Sistani) and the verdict of Sayed Khui (rahimahumullah) who have weakened Muhammed b. Sinan as Dhai'f, and weak.

Whether or not he was once a Ghali and then repented, suffice to say, there is enormous criticism of him, and many do deem him overall to therefore be Dhai'f - Aqeedah can not be taken from him.

I'd avoid reading the views of young people coming maybe 1400 years after the event, compared to the giants who had the works of the Ghulat themselves, or had other essential Q'ararin back in the day, many of whom lived maybe 100, 200 years after the death of the narrators they were criticising. 

 

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I will address the other names later, but you would be basically playing russian roulette taking Aqeedah from infamous Khadabeen and Ghulat like Muhammed b. Sinan, and to an extent Mufadhal b. Umar who is a bit more controversial / less clear cut. These two people had infamous close ties to arguably one of the greatest Khadab's and Ghali's of his time, Yunus b. Zabyaan, who was regarded as one of the greatest liars of his era. These trio appear to narrate from each other and even defend each other.

[In Gods Name]

On 10/16/2023 at 2:41 AM, Abu Nur said:

Mohammad ibn Sinān

Just to reference my prior post - and why we should take the word of al-Khui over SC user Abu Tufayl on Muhammed b. Sinan:

متعارض فيه التوثيق والتضعيف فلا دليل على وثاقته

"There is disagreements (contradictory opinions/narrations) in [his] Tawthīq (approval) and Taḍ'īf (weakening), thus, there is no evidence for his Wathāqah (approval of trustworthiness)". (al- Khū’ī, Mu‘jam rijāl al-ḥadīth, vol. 17, person. 10938.) (Credit: Jafaar al Shilbi]

 

Words of our foremost scholars of Rijal on Muhammed b. Sinan

Ghada'iri, regarded as the most reliable of the scholars of ilm ul Rijal according to Ayatullah al Udhma, Sayed Ali Hussaini Sistani (Hafidhaullah') has scathing remarks:

 - محمد بن سنان، أبو جعفر، الهمداني، مولاهم - هذا أصح ما ينتسب إليه -. ضعيف، غال، يضع (الحديث) لا يلتفت إليه.

"Muḥammad b. Sinān, Abū Jaʿfar, al-Hamdānī, their client – this is the most correct of what he is related to. Weak, a ghālī, he fabricates (ḥadīth). He is not turned to."

[From: https://thaqalayn.net/chapter/17/20/15]

Shaykh Tusi clearly declares him Dhai'f, and narrating corruption and Ghuluw:

له كتب و قد طعن عليه و ضعف و كتبه مثل كتب الحسين بن سعيد على عددها و له كتاب النوادر. و جميع ما رواه إلا ما كان فيه تخليط أو غلو

[Tusi - Fihrist]

 Al-Nahashi declares him extremely weak, and warns others about him:

قال و له مسائل عنه معروفة و هو رجل ضعيف جدا لا يعول عليه و لا يلتفت إلى ما تفرد به

and we also have the words of Shaykh Mufid:

"And this hadith is odd (shadh), unusual , not relied upon. Its route is Muhammad b. Sinan, and he is discredited. The `isaba (i.e. the Shi`a) do not differ in his accusation and his weakening, and that whose path is this is not acted upon in the religion"  - [Jawabat Ahl al-Musil]

[Cool]

Quran itself is the evidence of the knowledge of Imams عليهم السلام

1. Imams, according to Quran, are the bearers of knowledge of the book (علم الكتاب).

2. Imams, according to Quran, are راسخون في العلم

3. Imams, according to Quran, are الشهداء على الناس

4. Imams, according to Quran, are the men of الاعراف who will recognize people from their marks.

5. Imams, according to Quran, are the purified ones and the truthful ones.

6. Imams, according to Quran, are our Mowla, Ulil Amr and their obedience is made obligatory on us.

7. Imams, according to Quran, are the guided ones, even Satan cannot misguide them.

I can keep going on to include hundreds of their virtues according to Quran. All of them, will lead us to accept their status as having "perfect knowledge" because they are the "perfect human beings" representing the perfect religion. These Imams are the ones who have the ability to talk with the Earth:

وَقَالَ الْإِنْسَانُ مَا لَهَا {3}

[Shakir 99:3] And man says: What has befallen her?

يَوْمَئِذٍ تُحَدِّثُ أَخْبَارَهَا {4}

[Shakir 99:4] On that day she shall tell her news

بِأَنَّ رَبَّكَ أَوْحَىٰ لَهَا {5}

[Shakir 99:5] Because your Lord had inspired her.

This isn't joke, these are not fairy tales either! These are the verses of Quran. Do you have the knowledge to speak to earth and receive her answer? 

Have you ever considered the meaning of having "knowledge of the book"? 

Have you ever witnessed how Khizr (عليه السلام) was deputed on batin? 

What a misery is that!!! When people start thinking what they know is the only knowledge! 

[Cool]

Interestingly, at least 11 ahadith are quoted in the two opening posts. 

Yet we have people disputing with us on the simple conclusion, that is:

On 10/15/2023 at 8:02 PM, Cool said:

So Ghuluw according to the above reports is not that which the Imams never claimed for themselves. Ghuluw here is to attribute to them divinity. Either in terms of knowledge or either in terms of power.

So if you think, ghuluw is that which Imam never claimed for themselves, then I am challenging you all, to prove/show, where they have claimed that they are the Imams? 

Start from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and come to Imam al-Mehdi ajtf. I need 12 claims from each one of them where they have "claimed" (individually) that they are the Imams and ulil amr

So, your accepting them the Imam is ghuluw? Your accepting them as ulil amr is ghuluw? 

That would be considered as square of ignorance. 

[In Gods Name]

4 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

I can keep going on to include hundreds of their virtues according to Quran. All of them, will lead us to accept their status as having "perfect knowledge" because they are the "perfect human beings" representing the perfect religion.

Imam Ridha's supplication in Shaykh Saduq's al Itiqad:

"Allahumma, verily I disassociate myself before You from those who claim for us what is not true for us.

اللهم إني أبرأ إليك من الذين قالوا فينا ما لم نقله في أنفسنا.

Allahumma, verily I disassociate myself before You from those who say regarding us what we have not said regarding ourselves.

اللهم لك الخلق ومنك الأمر، وإياك نعبد وإياك نستعين."

 

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What did the Imams say?

ما رواه الكشي في (رجاله) في الحديث الصحيح عن ابن المغيرة قال كنت عند أبي الحسن (ع) أنا و يحيى بن عبد الله بن الحسن (ع) فقال يحيى جعلت فداك إنهم يزعمون أنك تعلم الغيب؟ فقال: سبحان الله سبحان الله ضع يدك على رأسي فو الله ما بقيت في جسدي شعرة و لا في رأسي إلا قامت قال ثم قال: لا و الله ما هي إلا وراثة عن رسول الله (ص

ibn al Mughirah has said: I was with abi al Hasan (عليه السلام) along with Yahya b. Abdullah b. al Hasan, so Yahya said: "May we be your ransom, indeed they believe that you know ghaib (unseen)?" So Imam (عليه السلام) said: "Glory be to Allah! Glory be to Allah! Place your hand on my head, for by Allah there does not remain a hair on my body or head but that it is standing up*." Imam (عليه السلام) then continued: "No! By Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) it is not but inheritance from the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).*" 

 

SAHEEH [Rijal al Kashi]

 

حمدويه، قال حدثنا يعقوب، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن شعيب، عن أبي بصير، قال : قلت لأبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) إنهم يقولون قال و ما يقولون قلت يقولون تعلم قطر المطر و عدد النجوم و ورق الشجر و وزن ما في البحر و عدد التراب، فرفع يده إلى السماء، و قال سبحان الله سبحان الله لا و الله ما يعلم هذا إلا الله

532. Hamdawayh who said: narrated to us Ya’qub from Ibn Abi Umayr from Shuayb from Abi Basir who said: I said to Abi Abdillah عليه السلام – they do say, he said: and what do they say? I said: they say that you know the number of the drops in the rain, and the number of the stars, and the number of leaves in all the trees, and the weight of what is in the ocean, and the number of sand particles, so he عليه السلام raised his hand to the sky and said: praise be to Allah, praise be to Allah, no by Allah, no one knows this except for Allah.

SAHEEH [Rijal al Kashi]

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What do our top scholars, Shaykh Saduq, Mufid, Tusi say?:

ويقول الشيخ الطوسي أيضاً في كتابه المذكور: «ولم نوجب أن يكون [الإمام] عالماً بما لا تعلُّق له بالأحكام الشرعية

Shaikh Tusi wrote in his book Talkhis al Shafi (Volume 1 page 252): "It is not wajib for the Imam to have any knowledge of things which are not directly related to Islamic laws.  

والامام أيضا لم يقف على كل هذه التخاليط التي رويت لأنه لا يعلم الغيب، وإنما هو عبد صالح يعلم الكتاب والسنة، ويعلم من أخبار شيعته ما ينهى إليه

 

And Shaykh Saduq, when explaining all the confusion among the companions of the Imams:

والامام أيضا لم يقف على كل هذه التخاليط التي رويت لأنه لا يعلم الغيب، وإنما هو عبد صالح يعلم الكتاب والسنة، ويعلم من أخبار شيعته ما ينهى إليه

الصفحة ١١٠

"And the Imam also did not stop all this confusion which you saw because he does not know the unseen, rather he is just a pious slave of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who knows the Qur'an and the sunnah, and he knows about the affairs of his shias that are not inhibited from him. (Page 110)

 

 

[Cool]

4 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

"Allahumma, verily I disassociate myself before You from those who claim for us what is not true for us.

So why don't you see what they have said and mentioned in the 11 ahadith mentioned in the first two opening posts? lol 

And by the way, don't try to alter the translation of:

الذين قالوا فينا ما لم نقله في أنفسنا

[In Gods Name]

6 minutes ago, Cool said:

So why don't you see what they have said and mentioned in the 11 ahadith mentioned in the first two opening posts? lol 

And by the way, don't try to alter the translation of:

الذين قالوا فينا ما لم نقله في أنفسنا

Let's start with the more important line he said:

Allahumma, verily I disassociate myself before You from those who say regarding us what we have not said regarding ourselves.

اللهم لك الخلق ومنك الأمر، وإياك نعبد وإياك نستعين."

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

9 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

However, i would rather take the views of giants like Ghada'iri (deemed the most reliablebook of rijal in the field of hadith by Ayatullah al-Udhma Sayed Ali Hussaini Sistani) and the verdict of Sayed Khui (rahimahumullah) who have weakened Muhammed b. Sinan as Dhai'f, and weak.

Sistani has no proof for proving the attribution of that book to Al Ghadairi. Ibn Tawus got this book but he's no ijaza or no chain to it. Hence you are relying upon a Majhool source and doing Taqlid where you like. Sistani also considers Ziaraat to be authentic why not do his talid in that as well? Nah because it hurts you hahahah 

[Cool]

Just now, In Gods Name said:

Allahumma, verily I disassociate myself before You from those who say regarding us what we have not said regarding ourselves.

اللهم لك الخلق ومنك الأمر، وإياك نعبد وإياك نستعين."

lol, the Arabic text is not what has been mentioned in translation !

Oh God!! 

[Cool]

2 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Allahumma, verily I disassociate myself before You from those who say regarding us what we have not said regarding ourselves.

Now, show me where Imam (عليه السلام) "claimed" I am the Ulil Amr, the Imam whose obedience is made obligatory on muslims by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

So do you accept him as "Ulil Amr"? 

[In Gods Name]

6 hours ago, Cool said:

lol, the Arabic text is not what has been mentioned in translation !

Oh God!! 

This was an error due to rushing. 

I trust we're all mature here and can focus on the actual matter at hand.

اللهم إني أبرأ إليك من الذين قالوا فينا ما لم نقله في أنفسنا.

Allahumma, verily I disassociate myself before You from those who say regarding us what we have not said regarding ourselves.

[Cool]

1 minute ago, In Gods Name said:

ما لم نقله في أنفسنا.

 

"Ma lam naqlahu fee anfusana"

(What we never said for ourselves)