Surah 4;34 AGAIN...

[PureExistence1]

Salaam everyone, so I am again at this word, idhrubuhuna in 4;34...

I've looked all over in different references, and I really have a hard time with that this supposedly meaning to strike/hit/ beat the woman:/

I do remember hearing a speech from some molauna who said that this word can also  mean to "move away from", but if this is the case, why is it not more widely known amongst major Islamic scholars and Quran translators?

It really doesn't seem rational or reasonable that God would encourage the hitting or beating of a woman. Physical violence only breeds bitterness, anger and resentment so why would that be the final "go to" thing if there is some sort of a marital problem happening?

"Lightly hitting with a Miswak" it's just completely stupid and I don't buy that understanding either.

So what gives with this word that is CONSTANTLY used against us and Islam?

https://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Drb#(4:34:29)

[313_Waiter]

Salaam alaykum dear sister,

Here’s my two cents:

I see a common trend with all of these issues… whether it’s slavery, the hudūd punishments or so called wife-“beating” (whether you go with the moving away interpretation or the light hitting with miswak interpretation), there seems to have been a massive shift in morality in modern society.

What was immoral years ago is now moral (clear example in homosexuality), what was moral years ago is now immoral. This is true for all sacred traditions. No modern secular, feminist worldview can ever be compatible with traditional religion.

The idea is that we accept and submit to whatever Allah has said.

But if we leave tradition and become atheists (nauzubillah), where does morality come from? Morality would be subjective and based on pure opinion. Nothing would have any objective value or meaning.

I try not to worry myself with all of these issues and think about why I believe in Islam, whether it’s irfan or the Quran miracles. The next step that would follow from this is that naturally, whatever Allah has ordained must be correct.

[AbdusSibtayn]

16 hours ago, PureExistence1 said:

Salaam everyone, so I am again at this word, idhrubuhuna in 4;34...

I've looked all over in different references, and I really have a hard time with that this supposedly meaning to strike/hit/ beat the woman:/

I do remember hearing a speech from some molauna who said that this word can also  mean to "move away from", but if this is the case, why is it not more widely known amongst major Islamic scholars and Quran translators?

It really doesn't seem rational or reasonable that God would encourage the hitting or beating of a woman. Physical violence only breeds bitterness, anger and resentment so why would that be the final "go to" thing if there is some sort of a marital problem happening?

"Lightly hitting with a Miswak" it's just completely stupid and I don't buy that understanding either.

So what gives with this word that is CONSTANTLY used against us and Islam?

https://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Drb#(4:34:29)

Wassalam, 

The 'with a miswak' is an idiomatic expression denoting its intensity. The command verb 'Idrib' derives from the root 'daraba' which can mean many things ranging from hitting to tapping or patting or even the raindrops pattering against a surface. Given the 'with a miswak' qualifier, and the 'move away' explanation being grammatically untenable, it will mean something like 'tap them' or 'pat them'. 

My reading of the verse is that if the successive steps in 4:34 are meant to convey escalating stages of hostility (no intimacy, withdrawal of maintenance) then a gentle slap on the wrist/pat on the back with the force of a twig hitting will make no sense as a higher expression of hostility. Also there are traditions that forbid hitting one's wife so it cannot mean 'beating' either. What it may actually indicate is patting or tapping the partner to initiate a conversation, something like 'we need to urgently talk about this relationship hitting rock bottom' without saying the same. 

You may find this post by this brother here quite useful. He has dealt with the linguistics of the verse in a detailed manner, better than any of us have. 

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by AbdusSibtayn

[Cool]

16 hours ago, PureExistence1 said:

It really doesn't seem rational or reasonable that God would encourage the hitting or beating of a woman

There could be more than one meanings the word واضربوهن، one of its meaning is to strike them or beat them, the other possible meaning could be "to go forth" from the marital house as well. And that understanding can be derived from the same root وَإِذَا ضَرَبْتُمْ فِي الْأَرْض which means when you go forth or travel in land. 

وَاللَّاتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ

{and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and go forth (from marital houses)}

This would be a tafseer bil ra'ye (tafseer from personal opinion). But let me express my point so that you may see the relationship between the words  وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ & وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ, perhaps it means leave them alone in bedrooms and go forth (by leaving them alone) till they start obeying..

فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلَا تَبْغُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلًا

I haven't seen any where in the teachings of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) where they have advised or encouraged someone to beat their wives. Infact, in the teachings of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام and within their lives (sunnah) we find the opposite as mentioned in the tafseer of Agha Poya:

"Never beat Allah's handmaidens."

"The best of you is he who is kind to his wife."

There is not a single event of wife-beating or child-abuse in the lives of the Holy Prophet and his holy Ahl ul Bayt."

https://quran.al-islam.org/

Some scholars also relate this command to the pre-islamic period and try to adopt rational approach by saying that:

"In the pre-Islamic era, women were at a very low level, and Islam came to take them by the hand and raise them to their high human level. But could this radical change regarding them have occurred suddenly and without any preliminary introduction? 

Or did he need time and gradually to turn that blazing harshness into gentleness and calm compassion? 

This requires walking with the people a little on this bumpy road. So that it is possible to stop them or pave the way for the reasons for this stopping, they can be returned to their original human nature!

Thus, Islam initially conformed to the Arabs in some of their customs - it had a close control over them - and during this keeping up and accommodation, it began to breathe into them the spirit of appropriateness and the removal of harshness, so that their hearts would soften and they would be guided to the path of what is right, so that they would gradually deter themselves from the mistakes that were attracting them so strongly.

We see Islam adopting this type of management policy regarding a group of pre-Islamic customs that did not control the Arabs alone, but rather over all other nations in general. Therefore, uprooting its roots required a period of time and an opportunity, short or long, and the preparation of fundamental introductions that would pave this path"

[Kev]

8 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Wassalam, 

The 'with a miswak' is an idiomatic expression denoting its intensity. The command verb 'Idrib' derives from the root 'daraba' which can mean many things ranging from hitting to tapping or patting or even the raindrops pattering against a surface. Given the 'with a miswak' qualifier, and the 'move away' explanation being grammatically untenable, it will mean something like 'tap them' or 'pat them'. 

My reading of the verse is that if the successive steps in 4:34 are meant to convey escalating stages of hostility (no intimacy, withdrawal of maintenance) then a gentle slap on the wrist/pat on the back with the force of a twig hitting will make no sense as a higher expression of hostility. Also there are traditions that forbid hitting one's wife so it cannot mean 'beating' either. What it may actually indicate is patting or tapping the partner to initiate a conversation, something like 'we need to urgently talk about this relationship hitting rock bottom' without saying the same. 

You may find this post by this brother here quite useful. He has dealt with the linguistics of the verse in a detailed manner, better than any of us have. 

 

This was pretty much my understanding of it with the miswak explanation. I view it as meaning a firm tap to get the wife's attention and understand that the situation is very serious. It certainly does not mean to hit or beat your wife! 

[PureExistence1]

13 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

Salaam alaykum dear sister,

 

Here’s my two cents:

I see a common trend with all of these issues… whether it’s slavery, the hudūd punishments or so called wife-“beating” (whether you go with the moving away interpretation or the light hitting with miswak interpretation), there seems to have been a massive shift in morality in modern society.

What was immoral years ago is now moral (clear example in homosexuality), what was moral years ago is now immoral. This is true for all sacred traditions. No modern secular, feminist worldview can ever be compatible with traditional religion.

The idea is that we accept and submit to whatever Allah has said.
 

But if we leave tradition and become atheists (nauzubillah), where does morality come from? Morality would be subjective and based on pure opinion. Nothing would have any objective value or meaning.

 

I try not to worry myself with all of these issues and think about why I believe in Islam, whether it’s irfan or the Quran miracles. The next step that would follow from this is that naturally, whatever Allah has ordained must be correct.

 

 

 

Salaam brother, and thanks for your reply.

Just so people here know, I'm not a feminist at all, my issue comes with the rationale behind hitting someone. But I totally get what you're saying about how things were different in the past and then there's all kinds of rules and laws and hadith that actually point to not hitting being the true character that should be emulated. It's just very annoying that this is even a question. It's kind of like people not knowing for sure how many kids Lady Khadija had. That annoys me too. Also, all the drama surrounding Aishas age...La illaha illah lah, im so sick of these weird grey zones where no one knows for sure without doubt...

As you so correctly put it, its better to not think about these issues as there are far greater points to be busying ourselves with, especially as far as the spiritual path goes.

And alhamdulilah my husband would never think of hitting me no matter how crazy i may inadvertently make him-I already grew up with abuse and wouldn't put up with it regardless of what Islam says. I'm not going to get hit by another man ever again. And that's not being feminist, that's being protective of myself and unwilling to tolerate abuse. That's probably why the issue bothers me in the first place. A child doesn't deserve to be hit, neither does a woman, weird outlier circumstances aside.

Thanks for your reply:)

[AbdusSibtayn]

On 10/12/2023 at 3:41 AM, PureExistence1 said:

regardless of what Islam says

Islam will never condone abuse, whether mental or physical. 

لا ضرر ولا ضرار فی الاسلام

'Neither getting harmed nor harming is a part of Islam' 

[PureExistence1]

4 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Islam will never condone abuse, whether mental or physical. 

لا ضرر ولا ضرار فی الاسلام

'Neither getting harmed nor harming is a part of Islam' 

I agree, I should have been more precise in what I said and said something closer to having an issue with the way that that word is translated as opposed to a blanket staementthats actually false..

 

If it doesn't mean to beat and saying it means to hit lightly, we all know that a good portion of the Muslim population has misconstrued that to mean beat, like, literally beat. So while I know that that's not what our religion teaches, i have a huge issue with this particular word and how it is translated and the reasoning behind it, and consistently coming up against non-muslims throwing this around.. It's just hard for me to grasp that while I know that this is a religion for all times, all cultures, etc, why would the reasoning be that this should be interpreted based on the mentality of the time it was revealed considering this is a religion for all time? In other words, if it's correctly translated to mean beat, then it means beat then as well as it does now. Which it shouldn't mean that at all, ever... The prophet (SAWS)wouldn't do it, and neither would his progeny(عليه السلام) so why the translation of the sort then? Why would it ever at any point in time, in any sort of way, be okay? Especially when Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) with His unlimited knowledge knows people are going to misunderstand the meaning of this and hurt other people?

Its just frustrating-.-

[AbdusSibtayn]

8 hours ago, PureExistence1 said:

I agree, I should have been more precise in what I said and said something closer to having an issue with the way that that word is translated as opposed to a blanket staementthats actually false..

 

If it doesn't mean to beat and saying it means to hit lightly, we all know that a good portion of the Muslim population has misconstrued that to mean beat, like, literally beat. So while I know that that's not what our religion teaches, i have a huge issue with this particular word and how it is translated and the reasoning behind it, and consistently coming up against non-muslims throwing this around.. It's just hard for me to grasp that while I know that this is a religion for all times, all cultures, etc, why would the reasoning be that this should be interpreted based on the mentality of the time it was revealed considering this is a religion for all time? In other words, if it's correctly translated to mean beat, then it means beat then as well as it does now. Which it shouldn't mean that at all, ever... The prophet (SAWS)wouldn't do it, and neither would his progeny(عليه السلام) so why the translation of the sort then? Why would it ever at any point in time, in any sort of way, be okay? Especially when Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) with His unlimited knowledge knows people are going to misunderstand the meaning of this and hurt other people?

Its just frustrating-.-

Yes, the translators could do a better job. A lot of the times the kuffar get to one-up is because the translators and even 'scholars' do a horrible job at presenting sensitive topics. They either succumb to woke-washing or take the other extreme and throw all nuance and context outside the window. Both approaches are equally harmful in my opinion. One distorts the the religion, and the other shakes the faith of the average Muslim already bombarded by doubts sown by modernity. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 10/12/2023 at 1:41 AM, PureExistence1 said:

Salaam brother, and thanks for your reply.

Just so people here know, I'm not a feminist at all, my issue comes with the rationale behind hitting someone. But I totally get what you're saying about how things were different in the past and then there's all kinds of rules and laws and hadith that actually point to not hitting being the true character that should be emulated. It's just very annoying that this is even a question. It's kind of like people not knowing for sure how many kids Lady Khadija had. That annoys me too. Also, all the drama surrounding Aishas age...La illaha illah lah, im so sick of these weird grey zones where no one knows for sure without doubt...

As you so correctly put it, its better to not think about these issues as there are far greater points to be busying ourselves with, especially as far as the spiritual path goes.

And alhamdulilah my husband would never think of hitting me no matter how crazy i may inadvertently make him-I already grew up with abuse and wouldn't put up with it regardless of what Islam says. I'm not going to get hit by another man ever again. And that's not being feminist, that's being protective of myself and unwilling to tolerate abuse. That's probably why the issue bothers me in the first place. A child doesn't deserve to be hit, neither does a woman, weird outlier circumstances aside.

Thanks for your reply:)

 

On 10/11/2023 at 9:40 PM, Kev said:

This was pretty much my understanding of it with the miswak explanation. I view it as meaning a firm tap to get the wife's attention and understand that the situation is very serious. It certainly does not mean to hit or beat your wife! 

Salam

 

[elite]

On 10/10/2023 at 10:50 PM, PureExistence1 said:

Salaam everyone, so I am again at this word, idhrubuhuna in 4;34...

I've looked all over in different references, and I really have a hard time with that this supposedly meaning to strike/hit/ beat the woman:/

I do remember hearing a speech from some molauna who said that this word can also  mean to "move away from", but if this is the case, why is it not more widely known amongst major Islamic scholars and Quran translators?

It really doesn't seem rational or reasonable that God would encourage the hitting or beating of a woman. Physical violence only breeds bitterness, anger and resentment so why would that be the final "go to" thing if there is some sort of a marital problem happening?

"Lightly hitting with a Miswak" it's just completely stupid and I don't buy that understanding either.

So what gives with this word that is CONSTANTLY used against us and Islam?

https://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Drb#(4:34:29)

Wasalam.

 ضَرَبَ  :  And  He prohibited, or prevented, or hindered, him, from doing a thing, or from doing a thing that he had begun:   Lanes Lexicon Signification A26

 وأضرب فلان عن كذا أي كف

“Wa Idhrib Fulanan an kadha means to prevent “  Kitab al-Ayn al-Khalil bin Ahmad al Farahidi vol 7 pg 31.

 “And those from whom you fear disobedience, admonish them, forsake them in the beds, and prevent them (from disobedience), then if they obey you seek no means against them, Indeed Allah is most high,most great “ 4:34

[AlKhidr]

On 10/10/2023 at 12:20 PM, PureExistence1 said:

Salaam everyone, so I am again at this word, idhrubuhuna in 4;34...

I've looked all over in different references, and I really have a hard time with that this supposedly meaning to strike/hit/ beat the woman:/

I do remember hearing a speech from some molauna who said that this word can also  mean to "move away from", but if this is the case, why is it not more widely known amongst major Islamic scholars and Quran translators?

It really doesn't seem rational or reasonable that God would encourage the hitting or beating of a woman. Physical violence only breeds bitterness, anger and resentment so why would that be the final "go to" thing if there is some sort of a marital problem happening?

"Lightly hitting with a Miswak" it's just completely stupid and I don't buy that understanding either.

So what gives with this word that is CONSTANTLY used against us and Islam?

https://corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=Drb#(4:34:29)

PureExistence1, you are right about when they say go get a miswak stick or a tooth brush and tap your wife with this.  This is stupid and they just make things up because they cannot stand up like a man, like a Muslim and denounce their scholars false interpretation of BEATING THEIR WIVES.  Arabic word in Qur'aan 4:34 idribuhunna اضْرِبُوهُنَّ means: SET FORTH THE PENDING SEPARATION TO THEM.  Go to this thread and you will get all the facts and information about this subject:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235091858-beat-wives-in-qur’aan-434-resolved-feminist-remove-man-as-head-of-house/