[TRASH PIT]Ashura Gathering (Juloos) in Karachi - Pak, 2023

[Muslim2010]

I like to share the video of the Juloos/ gathering of Ashura in Karachi, Pakistan this year 2023.

This is necessary for information of those who are not aware of peaceful and religious rituals performed according to the sayings of Shia scholars.

 

[Muslim2010]

The respect is paid for all the shabeeh including Alam, Taziya and Zuljanah during the Ashura and other Juloos and procession.

 

[In Gods Name]

6 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

The respect is paid for all the shabeeh including Alam, Taziya and Zuljanah during the Ashura and other Juloos and procession.

 

• Advanced Member

Posted yesterday at 11:10 AM

May Allah lengthen the lives of Sayed Ali Hussaine Sistaani , and Sayed Ali Khamanei, for issues Fatawah and verdicts directly or indirectly against what you are about to see. These grand ulema, Hafidhahullah, pious and learned rocks of the Shia community are defending our school of thought. 

I make this thread because people need to be aware of what is going on, so we can perform Barra' and dissociate against it. So that the Sunnis who want to come to the Ahlulbayt do not lump us with that group of Shias.

May Allah continue to lengthen the life of our pious ulema who are speaking out against this.

<<<<<<>>>>>

 

A SC Thread asking about pilgrimage to Zuljenah:

He or she asks: "Please someone tell me that when we go out for zayarat (to Zuljenah the holy horse), do we touch hands from far or near and how do we pray?"

 

Exhibit one A video of Ziyarah to Zuljenah in Lahore Pakistan showing the Pilgrimage to the holy horse Zuljenah. 

It has evolved from a symbolic theatrical depiction of the horse of Imam Hussain, to a full blown pilgrimage and special powers being given to the horse.

 

 

Exhibit two:  Prostration in front of Zuljenah

 

 

Exhibit three - Making Dua to the horse with the intention God has given it the power to grant Hajat

Women ask Zuljenah for children and fertility. People ask the horse for their Hajat and wishes. 

 

Pakistani Zakir Zameer Ahktar confirming a widely held practice of asking Zuljenah for wishes

 

Burying Zuljenah

Once the horse dies, they bury it and perform Janazah for it. This is a funeral video of a horse.

 

[Muslim2010]

Stop copy pasting stereo type nonsense if have a useful mind inside your skull.

 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Muslim2010

[Muslim2010]

 

[In Gods Name]

Just now, Muslim2010 said:

Stop copy pasting stereo type nonsense if have a use ful mind inside your skull.

 

A lot of the 'Azadar' in Pakistan involves questionable behaviour with Zuljenah

It also involves Tatbir and the violent use of knives and blades to mutilate bodies. Children are also involved in these pagan type rituals which our scholars have forbidden us from. 

Scholars such as Sayed Khui, Sistani, and Khamanaei may Allah reward them all, have spoken out.

Nothing is a bigger insult to Imam Hussain than what you see these people doing. 

[Muslim2010]

5 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

A lot of the 'Azadar' in Pakistan involves questionable behaviour with Zuljenah

Go to the relevant threads and read the posts if you have any sensible mind.

Do you really have a sensible mind inside your skull? 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Muslim2010

[In Gods Name]

Just now, Muslim2010 said:

Go to the relevant thread and read the posts if you have any sensible mind.

Do you really have a sensible mind inside your skull? 

You have made a thread speaking about Zuljenah in Pakistan as part of wider culture rituals. I wanted to make sure people know what really goes on with what people do with that horse.

 

[Muslim2010]

Do you really have a sensible mind inside your skull? 

Edited October 9, 2023 by Muslim2010

[In Gods Name]

21 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

I like to share the video of the Juloos/ gathering of Ashura in Karachi, Pakistan this year 2023.

This is necessary for information of those who are not aware of peaceful and religious rituals performed according to the sayings of Shia scholars.

 

Are you against Tatbir and gross self mutilation that goes on in Pakistan and india, as part of these rirtuals?

People publicly go into streets and perform it, openly everywhere in Pakistan and India.

If you reply to me and say you condemn Tatbir and that it has nothing to do with the usual rituals - i will ask for your forgiveness.

Can you condemn mutilation that goes on?

If you talk about Muharram rituals, you will be answerable to Allah, if in Pakistan there are shirk-type behaviours going on with horses, young children are being made to use blades and knives and walk on hot coal and you present a very untrue image.

 

 

[In Gods Name]

3 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

Do you really have a sensible mind inside your skull? 

I have been respectful towards you.

Can you affirm that Tatbir and Zanjeer Zani is not a usual thing that takes place?

Can you condemn people performing Sujood to Zuljenah and condemn people asking their Hajaat from Zuljenah and going to perform pilgrimage to the horse?

<<<>>>

You can't ignore these things going on in pakistan. Our major scholars have spoken out:

 

 

 

 

[Muslim2010]

1 minute ago, Muslim2010 said:

As per your words these are "There are actually Shias in India and Pakistan".

I have asked to provide the evidence of the location of the people to verify your claim and identity of these persons, who they are. But you are just found speechless like a deaf and dumb.

Thus it is well proven that:

1- They are not from any country you are assuming and just spreading conjectures about them.

2- They look to be Nusairya or they could be Husaini brahman (Hindu) who do carry out Muharram procession and rituals.

I have already asked you to bring the evidence that "

"I like to see the evidence that they are shia ie 12vers. They look to be Nusariya the extreme shia ghulat or minority that does exist in Pakistan. etc"

You are failed to bring any evidence for their identify and location of these people. Yet you are just spreading assumption and false claims  and pretending yourself to be shia. This also provides the evidence that you are  another wahabi in disguise pretending to be shia. This seems another peak of Nonsense from Wahabi fools paid by Petro dollars from KSA.

 

[In Gods Name]

A lover of Ali would feel restlessness in his heart at people dressing up a horse the way the idol worshippers dress their cows, and people then making Dua to said animals. 

A lover of Ali would feel restlessness in his heart at children in processions using swords, chains and knives, to harm their developing bodies.

 

Ayatullah Mutahari has authored a book about this. Sayed Khamanei and Khui have spoken out against these behaviours.

 

[Muslim2010]

If you like to discuss Tatbir then there are many threads at SC about it. Elese you can also initiate a new thread about it.

This thread is not meant for discussing tatbir.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Muslim2010

[Cool]

58 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

I like to share the video of the Juloos/ gathering of Ashura in Karachi, Pakistan this year 2023.

This is necessary for information of those who are not aware of peaceful and religious rituals performed according to the sayings of Shia scholars.

 

WOW!! I am watching people of every age prostrating before Zuljenah!! 

Poor Shias!! 

[Muslim2010]

22 hours ago, Cool said:

WOW!! I am watching people of every age prostrating before Zuljenah!! 

Poor Shias!! 

Thus these evidences are sufficient  to reject the false claims of those accusing shia of indo - pak making prostrate /sajda to horses etc.   

wasalam 

Edited October 10, 2023 by Muslim2010

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 10/9/2023 at 10:10 PM, In Gods Name said:

A lover of Ali would feel restlessness in his heart at people dressing up a horse the way the idol worshippers dress their cows, and people then making Dua to said animals. 

A lover of Ali would feel restlessness in his heart at children in processions using swords, chains and knives, to harm their developing bodies.

 

Ayatullah Mutahari has authored a book about this. Sayed Khamanei and Khui have spoken out against these behaviours.

 

There are righteous shias who would never do such things but i  have seen many people making duas to Zuljinnah. Even some offered Salat-Al Janazah for a horse. I'm trying to look more into these things but i think that most of such practices are Biddah. None of Imams (عليه السلام) made a ziarat of a horse or taught us to go out on roads and block cities. Most of family gatherings on Ashura have become source of fun for people. These are all biddahs.

[In Gods Name]

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

There are righteous shias who would never do such things but i  have seen many people making duas to Zuljinnah. Even some offered Salat-Al Janazah for a horse. I'm trying to look more into these things but i think that most of such practices are Biddah. None of Imams (عليه السلام) made a ziarat of a horse or taught us to go out on roads and block cities. Most of family gatherings on Ashura have become source of fun for people. These are all biddahs.

Salam

Your Aqeedah confuses me. Sometimes you show proper rational thought like this.

Can you detail more brother - when did you see people making Duas to Zuljenah/salah to it? Can you go into details?

@Ashvazdanghe thinks i am making it up. 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

3 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Salam

Your Aqeedah confuses me. Sometimes you show proper rational thought like this.

Can you detail more brother - when did you see people making Duas to Zuljenah/salah to it? Can you go into details?

@Ashvazdanghe thinks i am making it up. 

I haven't created any confusion brother.

in your posts, it seemed like you said all shias of Pakistan / India do sajda to Zuljinnah or pray to it. I said thats not the case. None of the brothers here believe in making duas to Zuljinnah either.

However, big percentage of shias are under influence of corrupted beliefs spread by zakireen and i've been to Bhati & jaffria here in Lahore, when people see horse, they make duas as if horse was their Mawla (master). This is correct. Most of times, people gather and have fun even on 10th. they're worried more about tabaruq than azadaari itself.
They think azadaari is going out on the roads, touching horse and a bunch of decorated furniture and thats it.

I do not subscribe to these views. 

[In Gods Name]

7 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

in your posts, it seemed like you said all shias of Pakistan / India do sajda to Zuljinnah or pray to it. I said thats not the case. None of the brothers here believe in making duas to Zuljinnah either.

 

salam brother, it is definitely not all Shias in pakistan or india, maybe a big minority at worst? 

But i see eye to eye with you - why would they dress up the horses the way those Hindus do cows you know? 

And they literally make Duas to the horse right? They ask the horse to grant their Hajat, touch it, bow to it while making Dua to it. 

I mean where is the islam in this?

 

>>

In terms of your Aqeedah, i want you to come back my brother , believe Allah protected the Quran, reject Tahreef. Your Aqeedah will be much stronger brother. But i won't derail the thread, so apologies to bring it up, but i have sincere care for you man.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

3 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

why would they dress up the horses the way those Hindus do cows you know? 

Hinduism has made its way into shias on indo-pak in the name of Azadari. Most of people here have a history of living with hindus so its not a surprise.

4 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

And they literally make Duas to the horse right? They ask the horse to grant their Hajat, touch it, bow to it while making Dua to it. 

I mean where is the islam in this?

Exactly this is Biddah no doubt, and i don't think anyone here ever said its ain islam, a big percentage of shias do not accept this. rather they are momineen who make sure to pray wajib namaz during protests in Muharram, they do hold fast to basic teachings of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) like ibadat etc.

6 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

In terms of your Aqeedah, i want you to come back my brother , believe Allah protected the Quran, reject Tahreef. Your Aqeedah will be much stronger brother. But i won't derail the thread, so apologies to bring it up, but i have sincere care for you man.

This has been going on for too long, you can revisit all the threads. there's mutawatir proof for tehreef in Quran. you can make new threads if you want to discuss this in detail. Also, I don't follow mujtahideen, I think wilayah al faqih & taqlid also fall in the same category as the above practices of making dua to horses, touching some decorated furniture thinking it holy etc

[Cool]

7 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

but i  have seen many people making duas to Zuljinnah. Even some offered Salat-Al Janazah for a horse.

Salam!

You have rightly identified few practices as "bid'ah" and not the "shirk". 

I would like to ask few questions brother! 

1. What is "dua"? If your answer is dua is worship, I would ask you to elaborate what is worship?

2. Have you seen people making "dua" to every horse? I mean whenever or wherever people see horses, start making "dua" to them? 

Or do they just make "dua" before the decorated horses on certain occassions? 

3. Have you ever asked these people whether they identify that horse as their "Rabb"? 

4. What makes these people believe that a 4 legged horse can listen to their language, understand what they are saying and then able to fulfill their needs? Any idea?

5. Isn't it the matter that they come near to the "shabeeh" of what they consider as a "sign" of their master and call out their Lord Almighty who is السميع and البصير. And they, within the depth of their hearts, believe that it is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who is listening to their duas and is able to fulfill what they are asking for? 

@In Gods Name, you are also requested to answer these questions. 

I think we really need to understand what worship actually is! Because, according to few ahadith, looking at parents with compassion, is mentioned as an act of worship. Looking at the face of scholar is mentioned as worship. What else! Looking at the creation and pondering over it, is also an act of worship. 

And then we also need to understand what shirk actually is! The verse for our guidance, is as under:

وَإِذَا مَسَّكُمُ الضُّرُّ فِي الْبَحْرِ ضَلَّ مَنْ تَدْعُونَ إِلَّا إِيَّاهُ ۖ فَلَمَّا نَجَّاكُمْ إِلَى الْبَرِّ أَعْرَضْتُمْ ۚ وَكَانَ الْإِنْسَانُ كَفُورًا {67}

[Shakir 17:67] And when distress afflicts you in the sea, away go those whom you call on except He; but when He brings you safe to the land, you turn aside; and man is ever ungrateful.

[Cool]

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said in chapter 12:

و ما يؤمن اكثرهم بالله الا و هم مشركون

12:106

Majority of us is a mushrik according to this verse. In other words it says we believe not but with shirk. 

Which type of shirk is this? 

Shirk in Lordship? No, it is not possible.

Shirk in obedience? Yes it is!

So we should be very careful about this aspect. Sometimes we start obeying what our nafs, start preferring to the hawa e nafs over the divine commands, hence we gets out of the folds of touheed within no time. The verses from 103 to 105 are more important as they mentions:

a) people will not believe even if you don't ask any reward.

وَمَا أَكْثَرُ النَّاسِ وَلَوْ حَرَصْتَ بِمُؤْمِنِينَ وَمَا تَسْأَلُهُمْ عَلَيْهِ مِنْ أَجْرٍ ۚ إِنْ هُوَ إِلَّا ذِكْرٌ لِلْعَالَمِينَ

(103-104)

b) the turning away of people from divine signs:

وَكَأَيِّنْ مِنْ آيَةٍ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ يَمُرُّونَ عَلَيْهَا وَهُمْ عَنْهَا مُعْرِضُونَ {105}

[Shakir 12:105] And how many a sign in the heavens and the earth which they pass by, yet they turn aside from it.

Then it is said:

وَمَا يُؤْمِنُ أَكْثَرُهُمْ بِاللَّهِ إِلَّا وَهُمْ مُشْرِكُونَ {106}

[Shakir 12:106] And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him).

 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

  

4 hours ago, Cool said:

. What is "dua"? If your answer is dua is worship, I would ask you to elaborate what is worship?

as far as i'm aware, it can mean worship or to call out etc. Now i'm not sure about exact definition/meanings of worship but what I understand is that its obedience and submission to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

4 hours ago, Cool said:

2. Have you seen people making "dua" to every horse? I mean whenever or wherever people see horses, start making "dua" to them? 

Or do they just make "dua" before the decorated horses on certain occassions? 

Nah not every horse, but only on certain occasions. its because they perceive Zuljinnah as Mawla and i've seen people (few) standing straight looking at zuljinnah with their hands in the same position as hindus have in front of idols. this perception of zuljinnah / alam as mawla unintentionally makes some do dua (seek something magically) from/to it.

Also they think touching it gives shifa, some make their children pass from below the Zuljinnah thinking it's shifa, taking decorations off zuljinnah thinking its mutabarriq etc.

However, big percentage of shias, don't do it. Most of the time, it's just they raise their hands, and pray to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

5 hours ago, Cool said:

3. Have you ever asked these people whether they identify that horse as their "Rabb"? 

 

No i've never asked. and i think (99%) would refuse to say so or accept a horse as their "Rab". however, you'll find those easily, who believe it grants their supplications.

5 hours ago, Cool said:

5. Isn't it the matter that they come near to the "shabeeh" of what they consider as a "sign" of their master and call out their Lord Almighty who is السميع and البصير. And they, within the depth of their hearts, believe that it is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who is listening to their duas and is able to fulfill what they are asking for? 

Agreed people do that alot.

5 hours ago, Cool said:

4. What makes these people believe that a 4 legged horse can listen to their language, understand what they are saying and then able to fulfill their needs? Any idea?

 

Its nisbat with Imam (عليه السلام). 

[Cool]

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Now i'm not sure about exact definition/meanings of worship

Allow me to help you brother. If the work we are doing is for the sake of seeking the pleasure of God, then it is an act of worship. It is so even though it may be a business or professional venture, the pursuit of knowledge, marriage, service to people, or anything that is meant to meet our needs or that of society.

So it is purely our inner state, that is, neeyah, which turns our actions into an act of worship.

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Nah not every horse, but only on certain occasions. its because they perceive Zuljinnah as Mawla

Please elaborate the bold part brother. Do they perceive zuljenah as their mowla or do they perceive owner of/rider (which is Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)) of that zuljenah as their mowla? 

I mean how can any one say zuljenah is their mowla? lol 

A Shia is supposed to be very clear about who his mowla are! 

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

i've seen people (few) standing straight looking at zuljinnah with their hands in the same position as hindus have in front of idols. this perception of zuljinnah / alam as mawla unintentionally makes some do dua (seek something magically) from/to it

Have you ever asked the religion of those people? I mean zuljenah is obviously not the "mowla" of shias, so who are those who accept animal as their mowla? May be you have seen some hindu's doing this as a large number of hindu's also attend the Ashura processions. 

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Also they think touching it gives shifa, some make their children pass from below the Zuljinnah thinking it's shifa, taking decorations off zuljinnah thinking its mutabarriq etc.

So we have an example in Quran where shirt of a Prophet (Yusuf (عليه السلام)) become a mean of Shifa for another Prophet ((عليه السلام)). But that doesn't mean that the "shabeeh" of that shirt become the mean of shifa. So these are the bid'ah.

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

i think (99%) would refuse to say so or accept a horse as their "Rab". however, you'll find those easily, who believe it grants their supplications.

It is confusing! Because of what you said below;

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Agreed people do that alot.

So if people go for the ziyarah of shabeeh of zuljenah and consider that shabeeh as the sign of the horse which Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) used, and then they do dua to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), understanding that He is the one who listens to their supplication and grant their needs, this means then no one is actually supplicating to a horse. 

1 hour ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

nisbat with Imam (عليه السلام). 

See this answer proves wrong what you said earlier "people perceive zuljenah as their mowla". Zuljenah becomes a sign of respect for them only because of its nisbat to Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), who actually is the "mowla" of shias according to Quran & Hadith. 

Personally, I haven't seen in my life, any shia people supplicating to horse, prostrating before them or even standing before them like hindus. 

Now for those who are offering the namaz e janaza of zuljenah, who has commanded them or advised them to recite the janazah of a horse? 

In christianity, I do know people supplicate after the death of their pets in different words. Among them are the following words:

"Our Heavenly Father, we come to you today to ask for your comfort and guidance as we say goodbye to our beloved pet. We give thanks for the joy and companionship they brought into our lives. We know that you created all living creatures and that you understand the deep bond we shared with our pet. Please give us the strength to accept their passing and the grace to remember them with love. Amen."

But no where in Islamic teachings, I have seen anyone offering salat al-maiyyet for any animal. 

[Cool]

4 hours ago, Cool said:

Majority of us is (are) mushrik according to this verse. In other words it says we believe not but with shirk. 

* Us

* by "us in above quote I mean as human beings, not to be understood as shias. 

[In Gods Name]

Hindu horse worship

In India, horse worship in the form of worship of Hayagriva dates back to 2000 BC,^[9] when the Indo-Aryan people started to migrate into the Indus valley.^[10] The Indo-Aryans worshipped the horse for its speed, strength, and intelligence.^[11][12] To this day, the worship of Hayagriva exists among the followers of Hinduism.^[13]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horse_worship

Hindus worshipping horses in Puja festival

 

 

 

Shia's in the indo pak subcontinent borrowing horse worship

 

[In Gods Name]

2 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

.

I have heard from many that some Shias peform sujood to the Aalams which have flowers over them similar to how Hindus have flower over Ganesh the elephant idol and other idols. They bow to it and make dua to it.

[Cool]

7 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Shia's in the indo pak subcontinent borrowing horse worship

Fear God brother!

Don't put yourself in the trouble which you cannot bear!

Your patience wouldn't work for you in the hellfire. 

[Cool]

13 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

They bow to it and make dua to it.

How many times in a day do you prostrate before your hawa e nafs? Try to evaluate that first.

[In Gods Name]

[In Gods Name]

8 minutes ago, Cool said:

Fear God brother!

Don't put yourself in the trouble which you cannot bear!

Your patience wouldn't work for you in the hellfire. 

The minority of Shias , it is not the majority , i fully accept that, in the indo-pak region do make Dua to horses and perform sujood to it. This is clear cut Kufr and Shirk.

The majority, inshaAllah have nothing to do with these behaviours.

I fear Allah if i remain quiet while people bearing the name of followers of ale Muhammed are worse in Shirk than even those who worship Idols (tiny minority).

Most Shias in the indo pak area are God fearing, followers of Allah and are not like this. 

 

[Cool]

1 minute ago, In Gods Name said:

The minority of Shias , it is not the majority , i fully accept that, in the indo-pak region do make Dua to horses and perform sujood to it.

First of all, amend your post.

Secondly, how do you know whom anyone making dua? Do you claim to know the secret of heart? 

I can supplicate by putting my hand on horse or even by coming near to his ear, how would you know whom I am supplicating to? Unless you claim that you know the secrets of the heart and you have access to anyone's neeyah. 

[Cool]

7 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

So you are a revert and you have worshipped three idols like above in your life. And now you are teaching us the touheed? 

[Ashvazdanghe]

5 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

The minority of Shias , it is not the majority

lol, from accusing whole of them you have reached to separating them although even your accusation about minority is not acceptable because whole of your accusation has been based on void & baseless accusation from wahabists & judging on few controversial images  which you have not investigated about it so then judged based on your whim.