Imamate after Imam Sadiq - despair and confusion among top companions

[In Gods Name]

After the death of Imam Sadiq, top companions of his such as Sahib al-Taq [the same guy who in a saheeh narration claimed Zaid bin Zain ul Abideen said his father, the fourth Imam, didn't mention anything about Imamah, to which Sahib al-Taq reports he said the 4th Imam was doing Taqqiyah against his own son to prevent him from going to hell) and Hisham b. Salim were confused about who the next Imam would be.

You often find this mess and split after each Imam, often among some of the companions of the Imam who were allegedly the closest ones.

Full hadith here from al Kafi: https://thaqalayn.net/chapter/1/4/81

7. Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Abu Yahya al-Wasiti from Hisham ibn Salim who has said the following: “We were in Medina after Abu ‘Abdallah  left this world. People had gathered around ‘Abdallah ibn Ja’far thinking that he was the in charge of this task (Leadership with Divine Authority) after his father. I and Sahib al-Taq went to see him while people were around him because of a hadith that they would narrate from Abu ‘Abdallah  that said, “The in charge of the task (Leadership with Divine Authority) will the eldest son if he would not suffer any defects. We went to see and ask him what we used to ask his father. We asked him about Zakat to find out on how much property it becomes due. He said, “It becomes as five on every two hundred.” We asked, “What if it would one hundred?” He said, “It will be two and a half.” We then said, “By Allah, al-Murji‘a sect does not say so.” The narrator has said that he raised his hands to the sky and said, “By Allah, I do not know what the al-Murji‘a group says.” The narrator has said that we then left his with a feeling of loss and did not know where to go. I and Abu Ja’far al-Ahwal were together. We sat down on an street corner of the city of Medina weeping and confused and did not know where and to who should we go saying to each other, “Where would go now. Should we go al-Murji‘, al-Qadria, (belief in predestination), to al-Zaydiyya sect, al-Mu‘tazila or the al-Khawarij sect?”..."

 

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Major heavy weight companions of Imam Sadiq go to his eldest son because they were confused about who the next Imam would be. They ask him a question and are not impressed by his answer. They fall into so much despair, they then ask themselves whether they should conver to Murji (early sunnis), become Zaidi, and they even contemplated become khawrij. 

-How can some of the closest companions of the Imams not know which infallible next major imam would be coming next?

-How can they go and try to do a trial and error to see who the next Imam would be? Is this something Imam Sadiq should not have clarified clearly to his closest companions?

-How can Shia of Imam Jaffer Sadiq, and major narrators of hadith, not be aware of an alleged hadith about twelve Imams floating about, and allegedly the twelve imams being named, to think Imamah is over and to convert to Khawarij or Sunni groups?

 

 

If someone could clarify this for me, it would be beneficial. 

[In Gods Name]

If you are in doubt about the status of some of the named companions:

Hisham bin Salim:https://en.wikishia.net/view/Hisham_b._Salim_al-Jawaliqi

 

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How could a top companion of the Imam not realise who the next infallible, perfect human being was after the sixth Imam? Why would he ask him a basic question about Zakah? Is this how to discern who the Imam is? 

 

[In Gods Name]

Moderassi in crisis and consolidation

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

16 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

If someone could clarify this for me, it would be beneficial. 

Salam it has been clarified that confusion has been happened due to will of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) for appointing Abbasid caliph as one of his four executors for protection life of Imam Musa Kadhim (عليه السلام) because Abbassid caliph has ordered his agent in Medina to kill any executor of will of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) which by appointing caliph as one of four of them so therefore Abbassid caliph had to stop his order which it has been explanied in full detail in wikishia .

Imam Ja'far b. Muhammad al-Sadiq (a)

Will

Many hadiths indicate that Imam al-Sadiq (a) introduced Imam al-Kazim (a) as his successor and the executor of his will to his close companions several times.^[110] However, because of the persecutions of the Abbasids and to protect the life of Imam al-Kazim (a), the Imam (a) mentioned five people in his will, including the Abbasid caliph, as its executors.^[111]

As a result, even some of the prominent companions of the Imam (a) became hesitant for a short time about who his successor was. Some of them first went to 'Abd Allah al-Aftah and asked him questions, but his answers did not convince them. Afterward, they met Imam al-Kazim (a) and were satisfied by his answers implying that he was the true successor of Imam al-Sadiq (a).^[112]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_Ja'far_b._Muhammad_al-Sadiq_(a)

[In Gods Name]

5 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam it has been clarified that confusion has been happened due to will of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) for appointing Abbasid caliph as one of his four executors for protection life of Imam Musa Kadhim (عليه السلام) because Abbassid caliph has ordered his agent in Medina to kill any executor of will of Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) which by appointing caliph as one of four of them so therefore Abbassid caliph had to stop his order which it has been explanied in full detail in wikishia .

Imam Ja'far b. Muhammad al-Sadiq (a)

Will

Many hadiths indicate that Imam al-Sadiq (a) introduced Imam al-Kazim (a) as his successor and the executor of his will to his close companions several times.^[110] However, because of the persecutions of the Abbasids and to protect the life of Imam al-Kazim (a), the Imam (a) mentioned five people in his will, including the Abbasid caliph, as its executors.^[111]

As a result, even some of the prominent companions of the Imam (a) became hesitant for a short time about who his successor was. Some of them first went to 'Abd Allah al-Aftah and asked him questions, but his answers did not convince them. Afterward, they met Imam al-Kazim (a) and were satisfied by his answers implying that he was the true successor of Imam al-Sadiq (a).^[112]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Imam_Ja'far_b._Muhammad_al-Sadiq_(a)

A few questions:

- Imam Sadiq deliberately concealed who his successors would be, thus causing mass confusion among his best and most trusted followers? Why didn't the Abbasids go after Ismael, or Abdullah, the two older sons of the Imam?

-How could the closest companions of the Imams not easily be able to know which son of the Imam is infallible? Isn't it a bit obvious if a human is infallible or not? It's a bit odd you need to be told which one.

-What happened to the hadith of twelve imams or the alledged hadith where the 12 were named? Companions after companions before the occultation, it appears the companions seem to not have a clue about this. If the companions of imam Sadiq knew there were twelve Imams, why did they want to leave Shia Islam due to this confusion?

-Why didn't Imam Sadiq trust his closest companions if he allegedly engineered this confusion?

[Ashvazdanghe]

2 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

-Why didn't Imam Sadiq trust his closest companions if he allegedly engineered this confusion?

You don't read any response 

Imam al-Sadiq (a) introduced Imam al-Kazim (a) as his successor and the executor of his will to his close companions several times.^[110]

^{[110] Kashshī, Rijāl, p. 282, 283.}

3 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

How could the closest companions of the Imams not easily be able to know which son of the Imam is infallible? Isn't it a bit obvious if a human is infallible or not? It's a bit odd you need to be told which one.

They knew his successor which they have tested other sons of Imam in order to show to rest of shia community who is real successor of Imam .

5 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

What happened to the hadith of twelve imams or the alledged hadith where the 12 were named? Companions after companions before the occultation, it appears the companions seem to not have a clue about this. If the companions of imam Sadiq knew there were twelve Imams, why did they want to leave Shia Islam due to this confusion?

It has been preserved by infallible Imams & their trustworthy companions although your false claims . 

[Ashvazdanghe]

8 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

If the companions of imam Sadiq knew there were twelve Imams, why did they want to leave Shia Islam due to this confusion?

 

[In Gods Name]

4 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

You don't read any response 

Imam al-Sadiq (a) introduced Imam al-Kazim (a) as his successor and the executor of his will to his close companions several times.^[110]

If Imam Sadiq introduced Imam Kadhim multiple times to his close companions, why did those close companions not know who the Imam would be after him? According to Al Kafi and many other reports, major companions such as Hisham b. Salim and Sahib al Taq, were confused as to who it would be.

Can you directly answer this please brother.

In fact, the companions as a whole didn't even think Imam Kadhim (Not Kazim) was second choice, but third choice. They put Ismael and Abdullah ahead of him. 

6 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

They knew his successor which they have tested other sons of Imam in order to show to rest of shia community who is real successor of Imam .

This is no reliable way to choose the right Imam.

You can not say the way to know who the Imam is done is by asking them questions. Rather, you know the Imam by explicit designation of that Imam by the prior Imam.

The top companions seem to have gone , some of them, to Abdallah. Why would they go about testing if they knew already?

Also, if the Imam is profoundly knowledgable and completely infallible, why would you even have doubt? Would it not be obvious among the sons of Imam Sadiq who this was? 

 

8 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

It has been preserved by infallible Imams & their trustworthy companions although your false claims . 

Why would top companions be confused after each Imam whether there would be another Imam? Every Imam led to a massive split. Top companions of Imam Sadiq according to al Kafi even considered becoming Sunni.

Had there been a hadith naming all twelve Imams, there would not have been this level of confusion and you would have found many companions citing it as proof.

Instead, after each imam there seems to have been a lot of confusion about the next one.

It also doesn't make sense to protect the Imams if you have them all named for the Abbasids to know. 

 

The best guess is, the Imams were placed after they all came anyway, post Ghaybah to make sense of the confusion. They were never forenamed. 

[In Gods Name]

And why on earth did Abdallah not know it was his little brother who would be the Imam? Why did he accept the majority of proto-Imamis to follow him?

@Ashvazdanghe

[Ashvazdanghe]

5 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

nd why on earth did Abdallah not know it was his little brother who would be the Imam? Why did he accept the majority of proto-Imamis to follow him?

He knew who is true Imam but because seeking for power & wealth has called himself as Imam .

[Ashvazdanghe]

7 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Instead, after each imam there seems to have been a lot of confusion about the next one.

It has been happened only after Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) & imam Kadhim (عليه السلام) due to activities of Abbassids which it has been finished by Imamate of imam Reza(عليه السلام) which later Jafar the liar has claimed himself as Imam after martyrdom of Imam Hasan Askari (عليه السلام) which nobody has followed him .

9 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

q according to al Kafi even considered becoming Sunni.

You don't consider Kafi as  relaible book which you have accused Kulayni(رضي الله عنه)  to believing to distortion of holy Quran which after refuting it you remained silent  .

11 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

The top companions seem to have gone , some of them, to Abdallah. Why would they go about testing if they knew already?

This has happened for introducing Imam kadhim (عليه السلام) to common shias who have been confused which their test has showed that who has been real Imam also examining it doesn't contradict with shia belief system which it shows your total ignorance about shia islam although of your claims .

You are here just to prove your weired belief  not or understanding truth .

 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

17 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

After the death of Imam Sadiq, top companions of his such as Sahib al-Taq [the same guy who in a saheeh narration claimed Zaid bin Zain ul Abideen said his father, the fourth Imam, didn't mention anything about Imamah, to which Sahib al-Taq reports he said the 4th Imam was doing Taqqiyah against his own son to prevent him from going to hell) and Hisham b. Salim were confused about who the next Imam would be.

You often find this mess and split after each Imam, often among some of the companions of the Imam who were allegedly the closest ones.

Full hadith here from al Kafi: https://thaqalayn.net/chapter/1/4/81

7. Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from Abu Yahya al-Wasiti from Hisham ibn Salim who has said the following: “We were in Medina after Abu ‘Abdallah  left this world. People had gathered around ‘Abdallah ibn Ja’far thinking that he was the in charge of this task (Leadership with Divine Authority) after his father. I and Sahib al-Taq went to see him while people were around him because of a hadith that they would narrate from Abu ‘Abdallah  that said, “The in charge of the task (Leadership with Divine Authority) will the eldest son if he would not suffer any defects. We went to see and ask him what we used to ask his father. We asked him about Zakat to find out on how much property it becomes due. He said, “It becomes as five on every two hundred.” We asked, “What if it would one hundred?” He said, “It will be two and a half.” We then said, “By Allah, al-Murji‘a sect does not say so.” The narrator has said that he raised his hands to the sky and said, “By Allah, I do not know what the al-Murji‘a group says.” The narrator has said that we then left his with a feeling of loss and did not know where to go. I and Abu Ja’far al-Ahwal were together. We sat down on an street corner of the city of Medina weeping and confused and did not know where and to who should we go saying to each other, “Where would go now. Should we go al-Murji‘, al-Qadria, (belief in predestination), to al-Zaydiyya sect, al-Mu‘tazila or the al-Khawarij sect?”..."

 

<<<<>>>>>

Major heavy weight companions of Imam Sadiq go to his eldest son because they were confused about who the next Imam would be. They ask him a question and are not impressed by his answer. They fall into so much despair, they then ask themselves whether they should conver to Murji (early sunnis), become Zaidi, and they even contemplated become khawrij. 

-How can some of the closest companions of the Imams not know which infallible next major imam would be coming next?

-How can they go and try to do a trial and error to see who the next Imam would be? Is this something Imam Sadiq should not have clarified clearly to his closest companions?

-How can Shia of Imam Jaffer Sadiq, and major narrators of hadith, not be aware of an alleged hadith about twelve Imams floating about, and allegedly the twelve imams being named, to think Imamah is over and to convert to Khawarij or Sunni groups?

 

 

If someone could clarify this for me, it would be beneficial. 

How about you being consistent with your manhaj and also cite the gradings for this hadith.
Thaqalayn.net mentions Majlis said مجهول بأبي يحيى Mir‘at al ‘Uqul Fi Sharh Akhbar Al al Rasul (4/94) & Behbudi didn't cite it in his Sahih Al-Kafi hence a weak tradition.
Why do you bring a narration that probably isn't sahih? in the other thread you refused to accept a narration because of Muhammad Bin Sinan as he was unreliable

[Cool]

17 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

If someone could clarify this for me, it would be beneficial. 

Please go to "minor islamic sects", brother @Zaydism brought this case there and it was discussed in detail. 

[Cool]

5 hours ago, Cool said:

Please go to "minor islamic sects", brother @Zaydism brought this case there and it was discussed in detail. 

Here is the link: