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In the Name of God بسم الله

Is Zaid bin Zain ul Abideen (son of 4th Imam) a good guy or a bad guy?

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15 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Brother @In Gods Name first you need to clarify why the hadeeth of son of Zayd (Yahya) weak.
This Saheeh / Weak verdict on hadith by following opinions of scholars coming 100s of years after actual narrators is baseless.
Classical scholars never followed this methodology.

I Understand the confusion regarding a hadith from Al-Kafi, but it doesn't mean that you can discredit any hadith you want. Author of Book Kifayah Al Athr was praised by Najashi and many others that he's from among jaleel ul qadr scholars.

Now we need to look into muqaddama of book to know why he has authored it in first place and then probably something can be said about it.

There are alot of problems with the `matn` of hadith from Al-Kafi you've quoted. It just doesn't fit the mutawatir evidence and Ayahs we have the explain the the purpose of an Imam. Also if Imam Ali ibn hussein (عليه السلام) feared Zayd would go astray and that's why didn't tell him about Imam Baqir (عليه السلام), why did Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) did it afterwards? Besides you highlighted some of the analogies just don't make sense.

So we are not going to give priority to this narration because of the zahiri faults it has in its matn.
Imam (عليه السلام) knows better about it and why was it said. So do not reject it, rather leave it and follow what has authentically reached you via Quran & Sunnah.

Salam,

Brother, you're an Akhbari who believes the Quran is distorted. This is almost Kufr in my eyes - and i perform Tawaqquf to Allah on whether this is clear cut Kufr. I personally believe it is denying the verse of Allah and revelation, which is against the right Aqeedah and disbelieving in the verses of Allah. But i won't call someone a Kafir, this is not my duty and not the proper Adhab.

You also blanket authenticate books like al-Kafi, which is a treasure but also contains misguidance i.e. clear cut ahadith that verses of the Quran are distorted. It contains weak narrations from well known ghulat and liars like Yunus b. Dhabyan, Muhammed b. Sinan, and even controversial narrators that the Ghulat held onto dearly, like Mufhadal b. Umar and Muala b. Khunays who the scholars differ on.

I agree with you - Kulayni believed the Quran was distorted, which Saduq, and Tusi refuted him on. Kulayni has filled his corpus with many traditions supporting distortion of the Quran. 

But you can't ask me to use your standards. I believe we need to use the tools - imperfect as they are - to best ascertain what is reliable or not. You don't and blanket authenticate everything, despite the fact the Imams themselves warned us people were taking the books of his companions, adding fabrications, and despite the sheer number of Ghulat that festered in Kufa hundreds of miles away from the Imams who were actually in Medina.

<>

I am not rejecting Imamah. Thaqalayn to me, is daleel that Allah has chosen the Ahlulbayt, and the scholars from among them, as Imams and leaders to the Quran and Sunnah. 

But...that isn't to say there are no major issues.

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@In Gods Name you need to stick to the topic.

Where have i authenticated all hadiths without any proof? I have given you the reason why Cool's hadith is sahih because author of book (who's)  a classical scholar says he'll bring Sahih Sanad hadiths in the book. 

To bring Tahreef of Quran or other baseless arguments of yours into it. When author of book says i'll put authentic hadiths, his words have more value than people coming 700s of years after actual narrators calling them Majhool without any reason.

Cool gave an authentic hadith that Zayd (رضي الله عنه) knew the names of 12 imams and this hadith has a strong matn.

You tried to label it as a fabrication of late kufans why? What proof do you have?

I'm not sure why are shias like you are soo impressed by the Sunnis and do not trust their own people.

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On 9/28/2023 at 8:29 PM, In Gods Name said:

, Zaid basically says to a companion of the Imam, if my father would cool hot food to not burn my tongue when i was an infant, why would he not tell me he was a divinely appointed Imam and all the stuff you Shias claim?

Salam,

You are misreading the hadith, going totally out of context. What Zayd al-Shaheed asked from Mo'min al-Taq was that:

 

On 9/28/2023 at 8:29 PM, In Gods Name said:

he said, 'O Abu Ja'far, what do you say if someone from us comes to you asking to join us? Will you rise up with him (against the enemies)?

This was a question of khurooj, not that Zayd al-Shaheed was not aware of Imam. So Mo'min al-Taq responded him

On 9/28/2023 at 8:29 PM, In Gods Name said:

' I said, 'If such a person would be your father or brother I would join him.' He then said, 'I want to rise up against these people. Come and join me.' I said, 'No, may Allah make my soul of service to you.' He then said, 'Is it that you distance yourself away from me?' I said, “It is only one soul. If Allah's Authority on earth existed, then those keeping away from you would have saved themselves and those joining you would have faced their destruction. If no Divine Authority existed on earth then people joining and keeping away from you would be the same.'

The response of Zayd al-Shaheed was addressing the words in purple. Means those who rise up with him would perish/destroyed. 
Zayd al-Shaheed himself was known as faqeeh, so he responded to Mo'min al-Taq's claim (where he was mentioning the prohibition of rising up with anyone except the divine authority) which was alien for Zayd al-Shaheed: 

 

On 9/28/2023 at 8:29 PM, In Gods Name said:

He (Zayd bin Ali (son of Imam Sajjad as)): then said, 'O Abu Ja'far, I would sit with my father at the same table and he would feed me chunky morsels and cool off for me the hot ones out of kindness and diligent care. Do you think he was not afraid for me from the fire of hell? So he has informed you about religion (that is., it is prohibited to rise up with anyone except the divine authority) and did not inform me? "

This discussion is about the khurooj (rising up against tyrants) and not about the Imamate.

On 9/28/2023 at 8:29 PM, In Gods Name said:

To save you from the fire he did not inform you. He was concerned for you that after having the information you might ignore his guidance and become subject to fire. He informed me also. If I follow I will be safe and I will be destroyed, if I disobeyed (him), for which (my destruction) he was not that much concerned.'

Zayd al-Shaheed was aware of Imam of his time, this can be proved from many narrations. 

(Antivenom)


 

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The other narration is weak. Hisham bin yunus is majhool. It also goes against the more authentic one which is in kafi.

Edited by hanbali
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On 11/1/2023 at 4:51 PM, In Gods Name said:

This gives us four possibilities:

1. Sahib al-Taq, or someone in that chain is a liar, or the Asl or book it came from was infiltrated 

Taq was true that sajjad never told zaid about his imamah, because taq knew that sajjad never made that claim. The whole imamate theory is a hoax created by kufans to go against mainstream. And he is a liar when he said that sajjad told him(taq)

On 11/1/2023 at 4:51 PM, In Gods Name said:

Zayd is a lying Kuffar who knew about Imamah from Imam Sajjad but lied

This is false. Zaid is one of the awliya of this nation.

On 11/1/2023 at 4:51 PM, In Gods Name said:

Zayd was telling the truth, Imam Sajjad mentioned nothing about Divine Imamah, and it is a creation of the Kufans who geographically lived in i.e. Imamah

No doubt

On 11/1/2023 at 4:51 PM, In Gods Name said:

The Imam never taught his own son the Haq and truth

He never taught him because he was not an imam.

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On 12/1/2023 at 7:08 PM, hanbali said:

Taq was true that sajjad never told zaid about his imamah, because taq knew that sajjad never made that claim. The whole imamate theory is a hoax created by kufans to go against mainstream. And he is a liar when he said that sajjad told him(taq)

This is false. Zaid is one of the awliya of this nation.

No doubt

He never taught him because he was not an imam.

I won't lie, it is bizzare.

Sahib al-Taq, the Kufan, is coming to the son of Imam Zain-ul-abideen, Zayd b. Ali , and claiming Imam Sajjaf never taught his own son Imamah out of Taqqiyah.

It is odd.  The reasoning is horrific and not even something an elementary school child should use. 

My gut feeling tells me Sahib al-Taq is a liar, as opposed to the son of the Imam himself lying on his father, because even Sahib al Taq allegedly doesn't then say but your father has taught you and you are denying it, Sahib al Taq appears to realise Imam Sajjad never taught his own son about his Imamah and goes onto using a cop out of a reason.

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