You can not prove Imams are greater than Prophets according to Shaikh Toosi

[In Gods Name]

23 hours ago, Inspector said:

lol, changing the goal post again.

So we have the concept of "misguided truthful" now! 

If your this judgement is based on the fact that he has included narrations which mentions the distortion in Quran, may I know how you come to the judgement that he believed in the addition & subtraction in the text of Quran al-Hakeem? 

Despite the fact that Kulayni advised the readers to refer all the confusing ahadith before the Quran and accept only that which are consistent with it and return all those who are colliding with its verses. 

The vast majority of Shia scholars, have said it is clear al-Kulayni was applying that methodology to his own books, and then when he had applied it, he compiled al-kafi. This is because it contains a large volume of narrations which are not indirect, but rather extremely direct in giving us an exact verse the alleged change happened from and to. 

Furthermore, those chapter headings al-Kulayni writes are his own views too.

Furthermore, many scholars also state one of his Shaykhs, Ali b. Ibrahim al-Qummi also affirmed distortion and Tahrif of the Quran.

It isn't Wahhabis saying this, but men like alama Majlisi, Kashani in Tafsir as-Safi, Sayed Kamal Hayderi and many others.

Edited November 16, 2023 by In Gods Name

[Inspector]

13 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

It isn't Wahhabis saying this, but men like alama Majlisi, Kashani in Tafsir as-Safi, Sayed Kamal Hayderi and many others.

Tell me one thing, do you believe in misinterpretation of Quranic verses? Do Muslims not use to misinterpret the verses of Quran? 

[Inspector]

Here is an example of tehreef done by Abu Bakar;

"Ibn Taymiyyah quoted a hadith in his book;

 لما قالوا لأبي بكر: يا خليفة الله! قال: لست بخليفة الله، ولكني خليفة رسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم -، حسبي ذلك. بل هو سبحانه يكون خليفة لغيره، قال النبي - صلى الله عليه وسلم -: ((اللهم أنت الصاحب في السفر، والخليفة في الأهل، اللهم اصحبنا في سفرنا واخلفنا في أهلنا))

 [صحيح] . الحديث بهذا اللفظ رواه الترمذي في (الدعوات، باب ما يقول إذا خرج مسافراً، رقم ٣٤٣٩) من حديث عبد الله بن سرجس رضي الله عنه، وفي (الدعوات، باب ما يقول إذا ركب الناقة، رقم ٣٤٤٧) ، وأحمد في ((المسند)) (٢ / ١٤٤) من حديث عبد الله بن عمر رضي الله عنه. وانظر: ((صحيح سنن الترمذي)) (٣ / ١٥٤) 

So according to him Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) cannot have Caliph on Earth. All the verses mentioning the caliph of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) are being misinterpreted in a ridiculous way. 

Another tehreef done by Abu Bakar was that Prophet's daughter is not eligible for inheritance because he listened from Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) that we do not leave inheritance, whatever we leave is a sadqah. 

[In Gods Name]

This thread featured - in the thumbnail on google, when brother Daniel Haquitatou was debating Adnan Rashid, or having a discussion, about whether Shias are Kuffar in their beliefs.

Brother daniel used this among other threads, to cite that not all Shia have the belief that Imams are greater than all Prophets except Muhammed saw.

In fact, Shaykh Tusi, whom Sayed Khui himself regarded as the leader of this sect, and one of the most influential scholars in the history of Shia Islam himself said it is not part of our Aqeedah to claim Imams are better than Prophets.

I personally hold the view there is no evidence for this, and i merely say, the Ahlulbayt claimed they were not Prophets, and never claimed superiority over them, or equality to them. Therefore, i merely paraphrase this, and the Quran.

[Ansar Shiat Ali]

Salamu Alykum. I’m a little late to the party but inshallah Khayr. I used to think about and research this matter a bit on what opinion to hold. I’ll try to keep this simple regarding what I think now:

1. Imamah and Nubuwwah are not to be compared in the sense that one is better than the other.

2. The 12 Imams are greater than the prophets, except their blessed master Muhammad the messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). This is because of the many ahadith that clearly state that the Apostle of Allah and the imams from his progeny صلوات الله عليهم are the most beloved creation to Allah. Also from other proofs such as the mass transmitted narration of ‘Isa (عليه السلام) praying behind our awaited Imam (عجل الله فرجه). 

3. The Imams are more knowledgeable than the prophets. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said to the people, as narrated by Abu Al-Tufayl (ra):

”Ask me! For by Allah, you will not ask me about anything until the day of judgment unless I gave you its answer.” (Tafsir Abd Al-Razzaq, Jami Bayan al-Ilm, Al-Gharat by Al Thaqfi, and many more.)

And it is narrated from Imam Abu Abdillah Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) that he would’ve told Musa and Al Khidr (عليهما السلام) that he is more knowledgeable than both of them. (Basa’ir Al-Darajat, Al-Kafi). Among many other narrations that clearly prove this. 

Wasalam.

[In Gods Name]

29 minutes ago, Ansar Shiat Ali said:

Salamu Alykum. I’m a little late to the party but inshallah Khayr. I used to think about and research this matter a bit on what opinion to hold. I’ll try to keep this simple regarding what I think now:

1. Imamah and Nubuwwah are not to be compared in the sense that one is better than the other.

2. The 12 Imams are greater than the prophets, except their blessed master Muhammad the messenger of Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). This is because of the many ahadith that clearly state that the Apostle of Allah and the imams from his progeny صلوات الله عليهم are the most beloved creation to Allah. Also from other proofs such as the mass transmitted narration of ‘Isa (عليه السلام) praying behind our awaited Imam (عجل الله فرجه). 

3. The Imams are more knowledgeable than the prophets. Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said to the people, as narrated by Abu Al-Tufayl (ra):

”Ask me! For by Allah, you will not ask me about anything until the day of judgment unless I gave you its answer.” (Tafsir Abd Al-Razzaq, Jami Bayan al-Ilm, Al-Gharat by Al Thaqfi, and many more.)

And it is narrated from Imam Abu Abdillah Al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) that he would’ve told Musa and Al Khidr (عليهما السلام) that he is more knowledgeable than both of them. (Basa’ir Al-Darajat, Al-Kafi). Among many other narrations that clearly prove this. 

Wasalam.

Shaykh Tusi, who authored two of the four cannocial works of Hadith and was in his own right, one of the greatest scholars in the history of Twelver Shia Islam himself, would have been more than aware of the Aahadith.

Yet, there is no Qati i.e. clear cut text from the Prophet or his Ahlulbayt to explicitly designate the Imams as greater than Prophets.

Furthermore - you have not specified a grading for the tradition in 3. We also know that Khidr had more knowledge in certain matters than Musa (عليه السلام) and Musa (عليه السلام) was an Ulul-Azm Prophet. This does not prove the superiority of Khidr over Musa.

To get back to Shaykh Tusi, who authored two of the four major cannocial books of works, and many books of Ahadith regarded critical by the consensus of all Shia Twelver scholars, he himself says, there are scholars who do not claim Imams are greater than Prophets, and there are scholars that do, and he himself holds no view and peforms Tawaqquf.

What i am arguing here is, nobody can claim there is absolute Ijma on this issue, and nobody can claim there is Qati proof, and nobody can claim it is a fundamental part of the Aqeedah.

I do not believe Imams are greater in status than Prophets of God, the Imams explicitly shunned people comparing tham to Prophets, and they are in my view, the most righteous after the Prophets of God, and the best of examples to folloe and the purest source to the true Sunnah of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

And Shaykh at-Tusi says in his Risalat al-Ashr:

عن قوله في التفاضل بين اولى العزم من الرسل وبين ائمتنا عليهم السلام أجمعين، فإني وجدت أقوال أصحابنا في ذلك مختلفة. الجواب: هذه المسائل فيها خلاف بين أصحابنا، منهم من يفضل الائمة على جميع الانبياء عليهم السلام، ومنهم من يفضل عليهم اولو العزم، ومنهم من يفضلهم عليهم، والاخبار مختلفة والعقل لا يدل على شئ منه، وينبغي أن نتوقف في ذلك، ونجوز جميع ذلك.

"The Shaykh is basically saying that he found different riwayaat to support the various positions, and that the `aql cannot prove it either way, and that he personally does tawaqquf on the issue, and that it is permissible to hold onto any opinion." Nima translation 

 

[In Gods Name]

The entire point and purpose of the finality of Prophethood was that revelation had stopped, Messengers were no longer required and that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) had completed his favour on us, and nobody would be sent after.

Now just imagine for a moment if twelve people were appointed after, superior to Moses, Jesus, Abraham, and Noah? Every single one of these more knowledgeable, higher in status in, superior in almost every other way to every single Ulul-Azam Prophet?

You would essentially have twelve ultra Ulul-Azam level beings who have almost everything Prophets do, in fact, in many ways far more than Prophets do, except we don't call them Prophets, and they don't see angels but they can get ten times or God knows how many times the knowledge of the Prophets without needing to see an angel.

Remember - not every Prophet came with a new Risalah or revelation, some Prophets preserved the Risalah of previous Prophets. 

----

Believing Imams were in essence, ultra-Ulul-Azam Prophets in everything but name (still calling them Imams but claiming they were superior in every way) completely destroys the finality of Prophethood.

You then have twelve ultra-Prophets after Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), instead of pious and blessed family Members, non-Prophets, who preserved his Sunnah and father taught the son with the purest roots back to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), who himself obligated and made obedience of the righteous Imams after him the best way to get to his Sunnah.

 

 

 

[Abu_Zahra]

It's not like there's an opposition or a contradiction between the aimmah (عليه السلام) and the ambiya (عليه السلام) that people go to lengths to try and prove the superiority of one over the other. They were upon the Haqq and guided people towards it. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 4/7/2025 at 8:47 PM, In Gods Name said:

Believing Imams were in essence, ultra-Ulul-Azam Prophets in everything but name (still calling them Imams but claiming they were superior in every way) completely destroys the finality of Prophethood.

Salam your nonsense against both of holy Quran & saying of prophet Muhammad (pbu) which prophet Muhammad (pbu) clearly multiple times have mentioned that Amir al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is like prophet Harun (عليه السلام) toward him although Amir al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) won't be prophet after him which in similar fashion rest of infallible Imams have superiority to all prophets except prophet Muhammad (pbu) in similar fashion of Amir al Muminin Imam Ali (as);  which it will be proven again  at end times after reappearance o Imam Mahdi (aj) a after descending prophet Isa (عليه السلام) in order to help Imam Mahdi (aj) which he will confirm superiority of Imam Mahdi (aj) over himself although denial of it by people like you .  

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 4/7/2025 at 8:40 PM, In Gods Name said:

And Shaykh at-Tusi says in his Risalat al-Ashr:

عن قوله في التفاضل بين اولى العزم من الرسل وبين ائمتنا عليهم السلام أجمعين، فإني وجدت أقوال أصحابنا في ذلك مختلفة. الجواب: هذه المسائل فيها خلاف بين أصحابنا، منهم من يفضل الائمة على جميع الانبياء عليهم السلام، ومنهم من يفضل عليهم اولو العزم، ومنهم من يفضلهم عليهم، والاخبار مختلفة والعقل لا يدل على شئ منه، وينبغي أن نتوقف في ذلك، ونجوز جميع ذلك.

"The Shaykh is basically saying that he found different riwayaat to support the various positions, and that the `aql cannot prove it either way, and that he personally does tawaqquf on the issue, and that it is permissible to hold onto any opinion." Nima translation 

Salam your translation is totally wrong which you have mistranslated word of Shaykh tusi based on your own belief ;

About his saying about  superiority between  Ulu'l-azm prophets and   our Imams peace be upon them , I have found sayings of our masters different [from each other] about it . 

Answer:There is dispute between our masters in  These matters , some of them have given priority to Imams peace be upon them [totally ] , and  some of them give superiority to Ulu'l-azms [except prophet Muhammad(pbu)] , and some of them have given superiority over them (Ulu'l-azms) [except prophet Muhammad(pbu)] [to  Imams peace be upon them]  , which there is different" riwayaats  which Aql doesn't find anything against it"  , it supposed to  do tawaqquf on the issue" , and accept all of these . 

conclusion

Your mistranslation & misinterpretation is a total nonsense  based on your distorted  belief .

 

Lesson 5: Names of Ulu’l-Azm Prophets

(There were 5 Ulu’l-Azm Prophets):
1. Prophet Nuh ((عليه السلام).);
2. Prophet Ibrahim ((عليه السلام).);
3. Prophet Musa ((عليه السلام).);
4. Prophet ‘Isa ((عليه السلام).); and
5. Prophet Muhammad al-Mustafa ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).)

https://al-islam.org/elements-islamic-studies-sayyid-saeed-akhtar-rizvi/lesson-5-names-ulul-azm-prophets

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 4/8/2025 at 5:17 AM, In Gods Name said:

Believing Imams were in essence, ultra-Ulul-Azam Prophets in everything but name (still calling them Imams but claiming they were superior in every way) completely destroys the finality of Prophethood.

You then have twelve ultra-Prophets after Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), instead of pious and blessed family Members, non-Prophets, who preserved his Sunnah and father taught the son with the purest roots back to Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), who himself obligated and made obedience of the righteous Imams after him the best way to get to his Sunnah.

Salam mission of prophet Muhammad (pbu) has been a  total global mission for  all nations until end times ; while mission of other Ulu l-'Azm Prophets  has been a limited global mission for a limited region or group of people until coming of prophet Muhammad (pbu) ; which infallible Imams as successors of prophet Muhammad (pbu) have followed his total global mission until it will be finalized by Imam Mahdi (aj) which for that prophet Isa (عليه السلام) a last Ulu l-'Azm Prophet before prophet Muhammad (pbu) will confirm & verify superiority of Imam Mahdi (aj) over himself  ;which it's the confirmation of superiority of infallible Imams over all prophets  even in some cases over Ulu l-'Azm Prophets except prophet Muhammad (pbu).

Ulu l-'Azm Prophets and the Global Mission

• A hybrid view: the third theory is that if a global mission means that the prophet is obliged to propagate his religion to all nations throughout the world and not just his nation, then the missions of many prophets, even Moses and Jesus, were not global. But if it is considered as an obligation to propagate the religion in his encounter with other nations and their obligation to follow the new religion, then all prophets had global missions. Therefore, in one sense, the missions of many of the prophets were not global, and in another sense, the missions of all prophets were global.

It is worth noting that the connection between Ulu l-'Azm prophets and the wilaya of the Infallible Imams (a) has figured in several hadiths; for example, a hadith in which the Imams (a) are introduced as inheritors of the knowledge, miracles, and virtues of Ulu l-'Azm prophets.

According to the view that Ulu l-'Azm prophets are the ones with sharias, the following question arises: was their mission global or were they just commissioned to guide a particular nation? There is no doubt that the mission of the Prophet of Islam (s) was global, but three theories have been proposed about other Ulu l-'Azm prophets:

• The global mission of all: some people, such as 'Allama Tabatab'i, believe that the mission of Ulu l-'Azm prophets was global. To support their claim, they appeal to Quranic verses as evidence. They maintain that Ulu l-'Azm prophets, the ones with books, had two sorts of missions: a call to the worship of God, monotheism, and the rejection of polytheism, and a call to particular rulings and sharia. The first call was global, unlike the latter which was limited to a particular nation who were obliged to act upon them.

• The global mission of some: the mission of some Ulu l-'Azm prophets was not global. For example, Moses (a) and Jesus (a) were commissioned to guide only the Israelites. Some Quranic verses seem to support this view, such as "a messenger to the Children of Israel" (Sura Al 'Imran: 49) as well as other verses: Sura al-Saff: 6, Sura al-Isra': 101, Sura al-Shu'ara': 17, and Sura al-Ghafir: 53. Therefore, there is no correlation between a prophet being one of the Ulu l-'Azm (owner of a sharia) and his mission being global.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Ulu_l-'Azm

[In Gods Name]

3 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam your translation is totally wrong which you have mistranslated word of Shaykh tusi based on your own belief ;

About his saying about  superiority between  Ulu'l-azm prophets and   our Imams peace be upon them , I have found sayings of our masters different [from each other] about it . 

Answer:There is dispute between our masters in  These matters , some of them have given priority to Imams peace be upon them [totally ] , and  some of them give superiority to Ulu'l-azms [except prophet Muhammad(pbu)] , and some of them have given superiority over them (Ulu'l-azms) [except prophet Muhammad(pbu)] [to  Imams peace be upon them]  , which there is different" riwayaats  which Aql doesn't find anything against it"  , it supposed to  do tawaqquf on the issue" , and accept all of these . 

conclusion

Your mistranslation & misinterpretation is a total nonsense  based on your distorted  belief .

It wasn't a mistranslation brother, rather i was arguing against the notion you find today, that there is Qati clear evidence and Ijma and a fundamental issue of Aqeedah to believe Imams are better than Prophets. Shaykh Tusi clearly states, evidence contradicts and he holds no direct view and it is perfectly permissible to believe the Ulul-Azam Prophets are superior to the Imams. This completely goes against current popular view, that there is clear cut evidence and it is a clear belief, when the greatest early classical scholars refuted this view.

Furthermore, Shaykh al-Mufid goes into more detail here - and he is another major scholar in Twelver Shia Islam - arguably along with al-Saduq, al-Mufid and al-Tusi are the golden trio of our early classical scholars post Ghaybah period. Remember, Shaykh al-Mufid was the teacher of Shaykh at-Tusi:

Here's what he says:

- أوائل المقالات - الشيخ المفيد ص 70،71:

46 - القول في المفاضلة بين الأئمة والأنبياء عليهم السلام

قد قطع قوم من أهل الإمامة بفضل الأئمة عليهم السلام من آل محمد صلى الله عليه وآله على سائر من تقدم من الرسل والأنبياء سوى نبينا محمد صلى الله عليه وآله، وأوجب فريق منهم لهم الفضل على جميع الأنبياء سوى أولي العزم منهم عليهم السلام، وأبى القولين فريق منهم آخر وقطعوا بفضل الأنبياء كلهم على سائر الأئمة عليهم السلام، وهذا باب ليس للعقول في إيجابه والمنع منه مجال ولا على أحد الأقوال فيه إجماع، وقد جاءت آثار عن النبي عليهم السلام في أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام وذريته من الأئمة، والأخبار عن الأئمة الصادقين أيضا من بعد، وفي القرآن مواضع تقوي العزم على ما قاله الفريق الأول في هذا المعنى، وأنا ناظر فيه وبالله اعتصم من الضلال.

Notice how he is not talking about Ulul-Azam Prophets only, but clearly says, there are people on all areas, and some who affirm all the prophets are superior to Imams, and he concludes by saying there is no decisive proof to affirm any one view point , which includes no firm proof to affirm Imams are superior to any Prophets etc, and no Ijma on this issue. While he goes on to saying there is some Quranic proof in his view for the first option, he himself has taken no sides yet.

-----

Overall, we have two of the great scholars in classical twelver Shia Islam affirming that there is no Ijma on the issue of Imams being suprerior to Prophets, and there are many who affirm that Propehts of God are superior to Imams, and it is permissible to hold this view because there is no decisive authority for any one view.

In summary, claiming something about the Ahlulbayt which they did not claim for themselves in my view, can lead to a difficult hereafter. It is far safer to stay on course with what they claimed for themselves. They were adamantly against because compared to Prophets, yet some believe they are superior to Ulul-azam Prophets.

[In Gods Name]

18 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

It's not like there's an opposition or a contradiction between the aimmah (عليه السلام) and the ambiya (عليه السلام) that people go to lengths to try and prove the superiority of one over the other. They were upon the Haqq and guided people towards it. 

Yes, i agree.

I would say, there is a doctrinal issue one could fall into.

If one believes that the Prophet saw was the seal of Prophets, and affirms what the Imams have done in cursing those who called them Prophets, yet in the same tounge affirms twelve super-level Ulul-Azam Prophets in almost everything but name and seeing angels (but being able to hear them and superior in every other way), this destroys the finality of Prophethood, because right after Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) you have twelve people superior in every single way to Moses, Jesus, Abraham, and Noah, and can hear angels but not see them being the only difference.

To me, such beings are Prophets in everything but name, and in a way, it is an extension of Prophethood but beings far superior to Prophets.

It also makes it almost strange when the Imams of Ahlulbayt tell people not to call them Prophets (vehemently so), if in the same breadth they were going to add, but we are superior in every way to even the mightiest of the Messengers.

[In Gods Name]

The main point i want to make here is, contrary to popular via, many of our greatest classical scholars themselves did not take a position on Imams verses Prophets, and many considered it permissible to believe Prophets of God were superior to the Imams, and many themselves did consider this opinion to be true and accurate.

The safest course would be to deny the Imams are Prophets of God, but rather, consider them the best after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in terms of not what came before, but what came after, as the best route to his Sunnah and the best personalities of their times, and the most upright in society.

They were not Prophets of God, nor can we claim their equality or superiority.

But they are the best routes to the Sunnah of the greatest Prophet of God, Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

[Fatimid]

Salam Alaykum,

I am not a scholar, so please take my comment with a grain of salt, but this is my understanding on the issue.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says in Surah Ali 'Imran that "You are the best nation [ever] brought forth for mankind: you bid what is right and forbid what is wrong, and have faith in Allah." [Quran 3:110].

Without referring to any ahadith, the plain meaning of the verse apparently refers to the Muslim Ummah. If the Muslim Ummah is the best nation ever brought forth for mankind, why wouldn't the leaders of that Ummah i.e., Rasulullah (S) & Aimmah (A) have an exalted status greater than the Prophets (A)?

Although I believe that the Shia hadith corpus is generally reliable, I will avoid quoting any Shia hadith so that there is no suspicion of bias or ghuluw. Regarding the Aimmah (A) not claiming this position for themselves, I will let Isa (A) explain their status from sahih Sunni hadith:

In Sahih Muslim, it is narrated from Jabir b. 'Abdullah (R) that the Messenger (S) said: "A section of my people will not cease fighting for the Truth and will prevail till the Day of Resurrection. He said: Jesus son of Mary would then descend and their (Muslims') commander would invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some (amongst you). This is the honour from Allah for this Ummah."

Perhaps it is debatable to some, but from my perspective it is obvious that when Isa (A) will descend, the commander of the Muslims will be none other than Imam Mahdi (A). I think that all Muslims agree that the one leading the prayer should be the most knowledgable about Islam & the Quran. Thus, if Isa (A) refuses to lead the Muslims in prayer in favor of Imam Mahdi (A), what does that say about the status of Imam Mahdi (A) and the other Aimmah (A) in general?

In any case, the Prophets (A) & Aimmah (A) both have an exalted status in Islam, and neither should be disrespected. And of course, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best.

[In Gods Name]

11 hours ago, Fatimid said:

Salam Alaykum,

I am not a scholar, so please take my comment with a grain of salt, but this is my understanding on the issue.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says in Surah Ali 'Imran that "You are the best nation [ever] brought forth for mankind: you bid what is right and forbid what is wrong, and have faith in Allah." [Quran 3:110].

Without referring to any ahadith, the plain meaning of the verse apparently refers to the Muslim Ummah. If the Muslim Ummah is the best nation ever brought forth for mankind, why wouldn't the leaders of that Ummah i.e., Rasulullah (S) & Aimmah (A) have an exalted status greater than the Prophets (A)?

Although I believe that the Shia hadith corpus is generally reliable, I will avoid quoting any Shia hadith so that there is no suspicion of bias or ghuluw. Regarding the Aimmah (A) not claiming this position for themselves, I will let Isa (A) explain their status from sahih Sunni hadith:

In Sahih Muslim, it is narrated from Jabir b. 'Abdullah (R) that the Messenger (S) said: "A section of my people will not cease fighting for the Truth and will prevail till the Day of Resurrection. He said: Jesus son of Mary would then descend and their (Muslims') commander would invite him to come and lead them in prayer, but he would say: No, some amongst you are commanders over some (amongst you). This is the honour from Allah for this Ummah."

Perhaps it is debatable to some, but from my perspective it is obvious that when Isa (A) will descend, the commander of the Muslims will be none other than Imam Mahdi (A). I think that all Muslims agree that the one leading the prayer should be the most knowledgable about Islam & the Quran. Thus, if Isa (A) refuses to lead the Muslims in prayer in favor of Imam Mahdi (A), what does that say about the status of Imam Mahdi (A) and the other Aimmah (A) in general?

In any case, the Prophets (A) & Aimmah (A) both have an exalted status in Islam, and neither should be disrespected. And of course, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best.

Walaykumsalam,

I also used to make these arguments back in the day. Until i realised, speculative arguments, in the absence of Qati clear evidence for fundamental issues of doctrine could land me in major hot water , especially with the issues you fall into believing Imams are superior to Prophets - if you do of course, not saying this is clear in your post or that you do.

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 4/9/2025 at 4:54 AM, In Gods Name said:

Furthermore, Shaykh al-Mufid goes into more detail here - and he is another major scholar in Twelver Shia Islam - arguably along with al-Saduq, al-Mufid and al-Tusi are the golden trio of our early classical scholars post Ghaybah period. Remember, Shaykh al-Mufid was the teacher of Shaykh at-Tusi:

Here's what he says:

- أوائل المقالات - الشيخ المفيد ص 70،71:

46 - القول في المفاضلة بين الأئمة والأنبياء عليهم السلام

قد قطع قوم من أهل الإمامة بفضل الأئمة عليهم السلام من آل محمد صلى الله عليه وآله على سائر من تقدم من الرسل والأنبياء سوى نبينا محمد صلى الله عليه وآله، وأوجب فريق منهم لهم الفضل على جميع الأنبياء سوى أولي العزم منهم عليهم السلام، وأبى القولين فريق منهم آخر وقطعوا بفضل الأنبياء كلهم على سائر الأئمة عليهم السلام، وهذا باب ليس للعقول في إيجابه والمنع منه مجال ولا على أحد الأقوال فيه إجماع، وقد جاءت آثار عن النبي عليهم السلام في أمير المؤمنين عليه السلام وذريته من الأئمة، والأخبار عن الأئمة الصادقين أيضا من بعد، وفي القرآن مواضع تقوي العزم على ما قاله الفريق الأول في هذا المعنى، وأنا ناظر فيه وبالله اعتصم من الضلال.

Notice how he is not talking about Ulul-Azam Prophets only, but clearly says, there are people on all areas, and some who affirm all the prophets are superior to Imams, and he concludes by saying there is no decisive proof to affirm any one view point , which includes no firm proof to affirm Imams are superior to any Prophets etc, and no Ijma on this issue. While he goes on to saying there is some Quranic proof in his view for the first option, he himself has taken no sides yet.

Salam it's your typical misinterpretation of texts which Shaykh Mufid(رضي الله عنه)  has repeated status of Sheikh Toosi (رضي الله عنه) which because it has been against your idea so then again you have refrained from accepting the truth so then you have misinterpreted his words too in  similar  fashion your mistranslation & misinterpretation of word of Shaykh Toosi (رضي الله عنه) .

On 4/9/2025 at 7:43 AM, In Gods Name said:

The safest course would be to deny the Imams are Prophets of God, but rather, consider them the best after Prophet Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in terms of not what came before, but what came after, as the best route to his Sunnah and the best personalities of their times, and the most upright in society.

They were not Prophets of God, nor can we claim their equality or superiority

Everyone here has agreed that  they have not been prophets but in opposition of your deviation there is many  evidences about their equality or superiority.

On 4/9/2025 at 4:59 AM, In Gods Name said:

this destroys the finality of Prophethood, because right after Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) you have twelve people superior in every single way to Moses, Jesus, Abraham, and Noah, and can hear angels but not see them being the only difference.

You are only person who parrots wahabi nonsense about denial of status of infallible Imams which everyone in opposition to your idea believes to finality of Prophethood, which superiority of infallible Imams to other prophets except prophet Muhammad (pbu) certainly doesn't destroy " the finality of Prophethood" in opposition of your idea which seeing & hearing angels by prophet doesn't has any  contradiction with superiority of infallible Imams over them which infallible Imams according to reliable Shia narrations could hear voice of angels although they couldn't see them in similar fashion of prophets which even Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has heard cry of despair Shaytan in day of Qadir which prophet  Muhammad (pbu) has confirmed his hearing so then said you hear & see what i hear & see except that you are not a prophet after me ;  which even sinful persons during era of prophets have seen & heard angels at times of descending torments but they have denied it while infallible Imams have had full trust to Allah & obeyed him which they have been hearing voice of angels which they have support of angels due to following orders of Allah ; which in losing battle you are trying to separate infallible Imams from prophet Muhammad (pbu) in order to deny their special relationship with prophet Muhammad (pbu) & Allah based on your own idea & deviation. 

 

 

[In Gods Name]

On 4/10/2025 at 7:05 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Everyone here has agreed that  they have not been prophets but in opposition of your deviation there is many  evidences about their equality or superiority.

Shaykh Tusi has clearly stated there is no clear evidence the Imams are superior or inferior to the Ulul-Azam Prophets , and he does not hold an opinion.

Shaykh Mufid has clearly stated there are many view points , including the one that Prophets of God are superior to the Imams, and he himself was making his mind up on the issue.

Eitherway, my argument is that there is no Qati clear cut proof Imams are superior to Prophets of God, and there is also no compulsion for a Shia to believe in such a thing. The biggest classical Shia scholars have permitted not believing Imams are better than Prophets of God.

I personally do not beleive the Ahlulbayt are superior, or equal to Prophets of God. This belief is perfectly okay to hold. In fact, it may well be the safest belief to hold.

Staking ones afterlife unless there is absolutely clear cut statements or proof, is dangerous.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

On 9/26/2023 at 6:09 AM, In Gods Name said:

Didn't Majlisi believe the Quran has missing verses and that hadith which support tahreef are muttawaatir? 

Saduq is no Hujjah and also claimed aqeedah claims Mufeed refuted.

Well, brother, I think for you that person is Hujjah with whom you agree with. It is pointless to bring this discussion in the first place because even if one servant of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has excellence over another, it does not befit us to compare them because they both are servants of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and Allah (عزّ وجلّ) dislikes that his one servant is being overlooked while other is being praised. We should better judge ourselves than judging those who have already passed this worldly examination. 

[In Gods Name]

On 4/10/2025 at 7:05 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam it's your typical misinterpretation of texts which Shaykh Mufid(رضي الله عنه)  has repeated status of Sheikh Toosi (رضي الله عنه) which because it has been against your idea so then again you have refrained from accepting the truth so then you have misinterpreted his words too in  similar  fashion your mistranslation & misinterpretation of word of Shaykh Toosi (رضي الله عنه) .

On 4/9/2025 at 1:43 PM, In Gods Name said:

Demonstrate how I have mistranslated Shaykh al-Mufid?

The reality is, many of our classical scholars did not take a position on Imams being superior to Prophets. Some affirmed Imams are not superior to Prophets, some affirmed prophets are superior, some affirmed they are superior to all except the Ulul-Azam, etc.

Can you provide me a single authentic narration where the Imams have said they are equal to superior to Prophets of God? I want a Hadith with clear cut wording where they state this.

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 4/12/2025 at 11:08 AM, In Gods Name said:

Staking ones afterlife unless there is absolutely clear cut statements or proof, is dangerous.

Salam this your delusional speaking for not accepting the truth because of your weired belief & deviation ;

while there is clear cut  statements which Amir al Mumunin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has been likewise prophet Harun (عليه السلام) toward prophet Muhammad (pbu) except he has not been the prophet after prophet Muhammad (pbu) ; which everyone will meet him after death which people who have denied his status will have disgust from seeing him while people who have confirmed his status will be happy from his meeting .

Quote

And say thou unto those who believe not: work according to your condition verily We, going to work in our way. (121) And await; as verily we are awaiting. (122) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.daryabadi/11:122

On 4/12/2025 at 11:08 AM, In Gods Name said:

Shaykh Tusi has clearly stated there is no clear evidence the Imams are superior or inferior to the Ulul-Azam Prophets , and he does not hold an opinion.

Shaykh Mufid has clearly stated there are many view points , including the one that Prophets of God are superior to the Imams, and he himself was making his mind up on the issue.

Eitherway, my argument is that there is no Qati clear cut proof Imams are superior to Prophets of God, and there is also no compulsion for a Shia to believe in such a thing. The biggest classical Shia scholars have permitted not believing Imams are better than Prophets of God.

This is just your misinterpretation by your biased mindset which you have not provided any solid rational evidence which you just have mistranslated & misinterpretated words of Shia scholars just to give credit to your nonsense  ; because you can't accept their high place before Allah which you are hiding your grudge against their status behind such misinterpretation & your false words.

 

Quote

Verily those who wrangle concerning the revelations of Allah without an authority having come Unto them there is aught in their breasts save greatness Which they shall not reach. Seek refuge thou then in Allah verily He! He is the Hearer, the Beholder. (56) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.daryabadi/40:56

 

[Abu Nur]

On 4/13/2025 at 9:54 AM, In Gods Name said:

Demonstrate how I have mistranslated Shaykh al-Mufid?

The reality is, many of our classical scholars did not take a position on Imams being superior to Prophets. Some affirmed Imams are not superior to Prophets, some affirmed prophets are superior, some affirmed they are superior to all except the Ulul-Azam, etc.

Can you provide me a single authentic narration where the Imams have said they are equal to superior to Prophets of God? I want a Hadith with clear cut wording where they state this.

 

Imam Ja’far al-Ṣādiq (ع) said:

"We are the successors of Allah (awliyā’ullāh) on His earth. We are the ones who judge among His creation. We are His decisive argument (ḥujjah) over His servants. No one enters Paradise except by knowing us, and no one is saved from Hell except by knowing us. And had Prophet Ibrāhīm (ع) and Mūsā (ع) and ‘Īsā (ع) been alive, they would have had no choice but to follow us."

Source:

Al-Kāfī, Vol. 1, p. 437, Hadith #1 (Authentic/Saḥīḥ chain according to Shia scholars like Majlisī in Mir’āt al-‘Uqūl).

[Abu Nur]

1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

Imam Ja’far al-Ṣādiq (ع) said:

"We are the successors of Allah (awliyā’ullāh) on His earth. We are the ones who judge among His creation. We are His decisive argument (ḥujjah) over His servants. No one enters Paradise except by knowing us, and no one is saved from Hell except by knowing us. And had Prophet Ibrāhīm (ع) and Mūsā (ع) and ‘Īsā (ع) been alive, they would have had no choice but to follow us."

Source:

Al-Kāfī, Vol. 1, p. 437, Hadith #1 (Authentic/Saḥīḥ chain according to Shia scholars like Majlisī in Mir’āt al-‘Uqūl).

I need to verify this, i quickly used ai to find it. 

[In Gods Name]

56 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

I need to verify this, i quickly used ai to find it. 

I also love AI, but when it comes to the deen brother, that is one area where AI i would only use if i have memorised a Hadith and for quick help in being able to find it in the authentic texts.

However, the hadith in question does not prove Imams are superior to Prophets. Remember, even Salafis and Sunnis affirm Jesus Christ will pray behind Imam al-Mahdi, as Imam Mahdi will be the leader of the Muslims and the Ummah, and not Jesus Christ.

[In Gods Name]

4 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam this your delusional speaking for not accepting the truth because of your weired belief & deviation ;

while there is clear cut  statements which Amir al Mumunin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has been likewise prophet Harun (عليه السلام) toward prophet Muhammad (pbu) except he has not been the prophet after prophet Muhammad (pbu) ; which everyone will meet him after death which people who have denied his status will have disgust from seeing him while people who have confirmed his status will be happy from his meeting .

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.daryabadi/11:122

This is just your misinterpretation by your biased mindset which you have not provided any solid rational evidence which you just have mistranslated & misinterpretated words of Shia scholars just to give credit to your nonsense  ; because you can't accept their high place before Allah which you are hiding your grudge against their status behind such misinterpretation & your false words.

 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.daryabadi/40:56

 

The Hadith comparing Harun and Musa is not giving Ali (عليه السلام) any status if being above Prophets of God. This tradition has nothing to do with status above Prophets, but rather the closeness of Prophet Muhammad saw and Ali as in terms of their leadership over the people, especially when Imam Ali wqas left behind and Muhammed saw went to war, in the same was Harun as was left behind when Musa as wnet up the mountain.

[In Gods Name]

5 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

This is just your misinterpretation by your biased mindset which you have not provided any solid rational evidence which you just have mistranslated & misinterpretated words of Shia scholars just to give credit to your nonsense  ; because you can't accept their high place before Allah which you are hiding your grudge against their status behind such misinterpretation & your false words.

Can you demonstrate in your next post where i mistranslated Mufid?

Tusi believed there is no clear evidence Imams are superior to Ulul-Azam Prophets.

Mufid reported that many held beliefs all over the spectrum, including Imams not being superior to any Prophet and he was still making up his mind overall.

The summary is - there is no clear evidence to any of this, and it is not an Ijma issue, it is not an Aqeedah issue, one does not have to believe Imams are better or on the level of Prophets of God.

Similar to the third Shahadah in Adhan , Istighata, Zuljenah and Tatbir etc, a lot new additions have occured post Majlisi in terms of widespread popular adoption.

[Abu Nur]

2 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

However, the hadith in question does not prove Imams are superior to Prophets. Remember, even Salafis and Sunnis affirm Jesus Christ will pray behind Imam al-Mahdi, as Imam Mahdi will be the leader of the Muslims and the Ummah, and not Jesus Christ.

The context of the narration imply that The Imams are successors of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that even the Highest of prophets need to follow their commands. Unless you believe that a lower successor of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can command the upper one.

[Abu Nur]

Anyway comparing their superiority is so pointless because they (Prophets,Imams,Messengers) are all very near to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

[In Gods Name]

20 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

The context of the narration imply that The Imams are successors of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that even the Highest of prophets need to follow their commands. Unless you believe that a lower successor of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can command the upper one.

There is no clear Qati evidence - and al-Mufid, Tusi, and even modern day scholars such as Al-fayadh/possibly Fadallalah do not believe Imams are superior to Prophets (specifically Ulul-Azam Prophets), and are very aware of the tradition you cited.

Remember, even if the past Prophets returne, even in Sunni literature - Jesus will pray behind Imam al-Madhi because Imam al-Madhi is the leader of the Muslims in this Ummah , and not Jesus.

Furthermore, Khabar la-Wahid can not be used, if i were to side with your interpretation, for Aqeedah matters. I have collected a lot of khabar al-wahid saheeh narraitons that are clearly fabricated i.e. the Earth being on the back of a big fish etc - could you post the link again however of the one you cited from thaqalayn website? I tend not to take AI.

There are also traditions which seem to more explicitly discuss the rank and status of the Imams, which is why Shaykh Tusi and the others did not consider this a clear cut issue, and stated there is evidence supporting that Imams are not superior to Prophets.

 

 5ـ عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنِ ابْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنْ بُرَيْدِ بْنِ مُعَاوِيَةَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ وَأَبِي عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) قَالَ قُلْتُ لَهُ مَا مَنْزِلَتُكُمْ وَمَنْ تُشْبِهُونَ مِمَّنْ مَضَى قَالَ صَاحِبُ مُوسَى وَذُو الْقَرْنَيْنِ كَانَا عَالِمَيْنِ وَلَمْ يَكُونَا نَبِيَّيْنِ.

 5. Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from Ibn Abi ‘Umayr from ibn ’Udhayna from Burayd ibn Mu‘awiya who has said that he asked abu Ja‘far and abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) the following. “What is your position? To who of the people of the past do you resemble?” the Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, “I resemble the companion of Moses and Dhul Qarnayn who were two scholars but not two prophets.”

Al-Kāfi - Volume 1, The Imams are Similar to those before them and the Dislikeability of Calling them Prophets, Hadith #5

https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/1/4/53/5

 

The Imam clearly indicates, the Imams of the Ahlulbayt are like Ulema, scholars, but not Ambiya. Pious and righteous individuals who are not divinely appointed to Messenger or Prophethood or that rank.

Remember, the Imams cursed those who compared them to Prophets, so how would it make sense to then say, you are not Prophets, but you have everything Prophets have, in fact, you have more than what all Prophets had, except you ear but don't see angels and you are twelve super-Ulul-Azam style Prophets after Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in everything but name?

Their vehemence against being called Prophets is also because the Quran was clear, Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was the seal of Prophethood, if Allah wanted to choose Divinely appointed , Prophet level individuals, he would have not ceased Prophethood.

But the claim no, he chose twelve individuals who were superior to Moses, Jesus, Noah and Abraham and had every single thing Prophets had but heard and didn't see the angels, is completely against the idea of Muhammad saw being the seal of Prophets, because it is essentially one big continuation of Prophets, and not just any Prophets, the most superior Prophet level beings of all time except Muhammad saw himself. It makes no Quranic sense, it is not supported in Hadith either.

The safest position to take would be to recognise they do not reach the rank and status of Prophets, their knowledge comes from being taught by the Prophet saw, and they are righteous Ulema al-Abrar whose obedience in my view is obligatory on the Ummah, the most righteous Imams and Ulema as they themselves said, and the purest path to his Sunnah, and the righteous Imams indicated in Hadith al-Thaqalayn.

However, what people today do, in giving them a status of super-Prophets, claiming God made the universe through them, asking them directly for Risq, health, children, and making Dua to them, claiming they control the universe and govern it and that Allah made everything and handed the reigns over to them, i humbly want to say, is a belief against the very essence of why Muhammad saw was sent.

 

[Eddie Mecca]

On 9/28/2023 at 8:51 AM, In Gods Name said:

this whole follow one scholar thing itself isn't even part of the madhab

I've been debating this point w/ Shi'i lay people since the late 80's and no one can give me a straightforward answer...or the whole following a dead scholar versus following a living scholar thing...Also, why can't we follow a concensus of scholars? Let's say we have 30 scholars total...20 say lottery machines in gas stations are haram because they're an overt form of gambling...the other 10 say they're allowed because buying a lottery ticket is like purchasing a raffle ticket for spaghetti dinner at the local elementary school and the money's going to a charitable cause...then we would adopt the opinion held by the 20 because they constitute the majority opinion

Edited April 18 by Eddie Mecca

[Abu Nur]

20 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

The Imam clearly indicates, the Imams of the Ahlulbayt are like Ulema, scholars, but not Ambiya. Pious and righteous individuals who are not divinely appointed to Messenger or Prophethood or that rank.

H 705, Ch. 53, h 4

A number of our people has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from al-Husayn ibn Sa'id from Hammad ibn 'Isa from al-Husayn ibn al-Mukhtar from al-Harith ibn al-Mughirah who has said that abu Ja'far ((عليه السلام).) has said the following. "Ali ((عليه السلام).) was a Muhaddith (a Divine spokesman)." The narrator has said that he then asked the Imam ((عليه السلام).), "What is mmeans, O Imam? Do you say he was a prophet?" The narrator has said that the Imam ((عليه السلام).) rose his hand like this, (meaning thereby, no, I did not say that)." The Imam ((عليه السلام).) then said, "Or he is like the companion of Solomon, or the companion of Moses or like Dhul Qarnayn. Have you not heard that he said, "Among you is one similar to him (Dhul Qarnayn)."

---

It is true that they are not Prophets, but they are very close to the characters of the prophets and messengers. And they are divinely appointed as leaders for the humanity.

Edited April 18 by Abu Nur

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 4/16/2025 at 6:57 PM, In Gods Name said:

Can you demonstrate in your next post where i mistranslated Mufid?

Tusi believed there is no clear evidence Imams are superior to Ulul-Azam Prophets.

Salam I have translated whole text of Shaykh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) in opposition of your mistranslation which both of Shaykh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) & Shykh Mufid (رضي الله عنه) have had similar statement about all sorts of superiorities which they have said some of past s Shia scholars before thm have divided to two categories which a group of them have believed to total superiority of infallible Imams while second group believed to their superiority over all prophets except Ulul-Azm prophets ; which both groups have agreed that infallible Imams have not superiority over prophet Muhammad (pbu) as seal of prophets & most superior prophet of Allah ; which both of Shaykh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) & Shykh Mufid (رضي الله عنه) have accepted both ideas so then expressed stopping talk about it is better ;while you have censored & misinterpreted words of both Shaykhs just to prove your delusional misunderstanding ;

On 4/17/2025 at 5:07 PM, In Gods Name said:

even modern day scholars such as Al-fayadh/possibly Fadallalah do not believe Imams are superior to Prophets (specifically Ulul-Azam Prophets), and are very aware of the tradition you cited.

This is another false accusation from your delusional mindset which in similar fashion of your previous nonsense has no reliable document or evidence except your misinterpretations  based on your deviations .

On 4/17/2025 at 5:07 PM, In Gods Name said:

5ـ عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنِ ابْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنْ بُرَيْدِ بْنِ مُعَاوِيَةَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ وَأَبِي عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) قَالَ قُلْتُ لَهُ مَا مَنْزِلَتُكُمْ وَمَنْ تُشْبِهُونَ مِمَّنْ مَضَى قَالَ صَاحِبُ مُوسَى وَذُو الْقَرْنَيْنِ كَانَا عَالِمَيْنِ وَلَمْ يَكُونَا نَبِيَّيْنِ.

 5. Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from his father from Ibn Abi ‘Umayr from ibn ’Udhayna from Burayd ibn Mu‘awiya who has said that he asked abu Ja‘far and abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) the following. “What is your position? To who of the people of the past do you resemble?” the Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, “I resemble the companion of Moses and Dhul Qarnayn who were two scholars but not two prophets.”

Al-Kāfi - Volume 1, The Imams are Similar to those before them and the Dislikeability of Calling them Prophets, Hadith #5

https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/1/4/53/5

All of companions of prophet Musa (عليه السلام) have been prophets likewise prophet Harun (عليه السلام) & prophet Yusha' (a) which prophet Harun (عليه السلام) has had higher status than prophet prophet Yusha' (a) ; which prophet Musa (عليه السلام) has made him his successor after that Israelites have rejected prophet Harun (عليه السلام) in similar fashion of rejection  of Amir al Muminin Imam Al i(عليه السلام)  by a group of so called companions ;   which in similar fashion companion of "Dhul Qarnayn" has been prophet Khider (عليه السلام) ; so therefore in opposition of your typical mistranslation of companions by you they have been prophets not scholars ; who they have been most knowledgeable people afer  prophet Musa (عليه السلام);  which even according to holy Quran  prophet Khidr (عليه السلام) has been more knowledgeable than prophet Musa (عليه السلام) while he has not been prophet for a particular nation or community in similar fashion of prophet Musa (عليه السلام) ;which also prophet Yusha' (a)  miracle  returning sun has been happened  for him which it has been repeated for Amir Al-mumini  Imam Ali (عليه السلام) two times ;

 

 

Company of Moses (a)

Historical sources described Yusha' (a) loyal to Moses (a) and a companion of him.^[18] The Torah has mentioned him a commander of Moses (a) in one of the battles.^[19] According to the Torah, when Moses (a) had gone up mount Sinai to receive the Ten Commandments, Yusha' (a) was with him.^[20] In the event of the disobedience of Israeilites from the order of Moses (a) for going to war, only Yusha' (a) and some others were not included in God's wrath. Therefore, God gave them the good news of their presence in the Promised Land.^[21]

Company of Moses (a) in Meeting with Khidr (a)

According to historical and exegetical sources, Yusha' (a) was the young man who accompanied Moses (a) in his meeting with Khidr (a).^[22] In the Qur'an, companionship of a young man with Moses (a) in his meetings with Khidr (a) is mentioned.^[23]

Prophethood

Quote

His prophethood is mentioned in different sources.^[24] After the demise of his brother Aaron (a), Moses (a) appointed Yusha' (a) as his successor.^[25] Some days before his demise, Moses (a) trusted Yusha' (a) with the tablets, on which the rules of God were written together with his armor. Yusha' (a) became Moses' (a) successor at the age of ninety. The period of Yusha's (a) prophethood is mentioned between twenty seven^[26] to thirty years.^[27]

 

Based on Qur'an 5:23, exegetes have introduced him a God-wary person.^[13] In exegetical sources, Yusha' (a) is considered loyal to Moses (a)^[14] because he did not join disobedient people when Moses (a) gave order to fight with oppressors. His name is not mentioned in the Qur'an, but exegetes have considered some verses of Qur'an 5 and Qur'an 18 about him.^[15] In some books of supplication, there is a supplication attributed to Yusha' (a).^[16]

Quote

Yusha' (a) conquered Jerusalem and accomplished God's promise for accommodating Israelites there. He was among the prophets for whom the miracle of returning of the Sun took place. According to hadiths, he will return after the coming of Imam al-Mahdi (a).

Miracle of Returning the Sun

Quote

Main article: Radd al-Shams

The same as Prophet David (a), Solomon (a) and Prophet Muhammad (s), Yusha' (a) represented the miracle of returning the sun. It took place during the conquest of Jerusalem. The conquest of Jerusalem took place in the evening of a Friday, toward the night.

 

Quote

In some historical and hadith sources, Yusha's (a) demise is mentioned on 21st of Ramadan, on the same day as the martyrdom of Imam Ali (a).^[11] 

 

His Return after Coming of Imam al-Mahdi (a)

According to some Islamic hadiths, Yusha' (a) will return after the Reappearance of Imam al-Mahdi (a) and will be with him together with Jesus (a).^[44]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Yusha'_(a)

Edited April 19 by Ashvazdanghe

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 4/17/2025 at 5:07 PM, In Gods Name said:

However, what people today do, in giving them a status of super-Prophets, claiming God made the universe through them, asking them directly for Risq, health, children, and making Dua to them, claiming they control the universe and govern it and that Allah made everything and handed the reigns over to them, i humbly want to say, is a belief against the very essence of why Muhammad saw was sent.

 

Salam these mentioned nonsense has no relation to this thread which you are using Wahabi accusations against Shia Muslims just for running away from accepting  truth ;

On 4/16/2025 at 6:57 PM, In Gods Name said:

Similar to the third Shahadah in Adhan , Istighata, Zuljenah and Tatbir etc, a lot new additions have occured post Majlisi in terms of widespread popular adoption.

All of these are baseless Wahabi accusationswhich all of them  have been refuted countless times by all Shia Members of SC ; which you are comparing apples with oranges just for making water into muddy water in order in a losing battle run away from accepting the truth .come with unbiased solid evidences instead of censoring  so then misinterpretation & mistranslation of words of Shia scholars  just for proving your delusional deviations.

[In Gods Name]

The Shīʿa say that the Imāms are superior to the Prophets, and here is the famous saying of Khomeinī among you: “Our Imāms hold a station which neither a close angel nor a sent Prophet can attain.”

Answer:
“We have made it clear in our Qur’ānic exegesis and in our juristic responses that it is not established for us that the Imāms are superior to the Prophets; rather, prophethood occupies the highest rank. This is our creed and our scholarly judgment.”

Link

https://sayedfadlullah.com/sub_category/50/283

 

Edited April 19 by In Gods Name