You can not prove Imams are greater than Prophets according to Shaikh Toosi

[Ibn Tayyar]

8 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

If a scholar says X person is a kaffir for not believing in Y which is a fundamental of the deen, you can not, follow that scholar in coming to what is and what isn't part of the fundamentals. A scholars Aqeedah and his beliefs as to what is in that Aqeedah are his own opinions.

You seem to misunderstand again. The faqih isn't telling you to follow him to attain this aqeeda, he is telling his followers that if this person denies "x" belief then there are certain ahkam that come with his status.

The same way a faqih doesn't tell you to follow him in Tawheed because he believes in Tawheed, he tells his followers the ahkam that come with a person's denial of Tawheed.

8 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Most scholars would also argue, once you believe in the core fundamentals, these secondary issues and debates are not of the average believers concern. They can choose to perform Tawaquf and defer the matter to Allah.

I don't know which scholars have said this. Some scholars may have said that there isn't enough evidence to support a certain position, or there is conflicting evidence, therefore tawaquf is safe.

Reading from the fuqaha, most of them seem to say that rejecting an essential is only kufr or deviance after you have to come to know of it i.e the evidence surrounding it. That is how they excuse certain companions or scholars for not holding or holding certain beliefs. 

8 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

And which scholars regard believing imams as greater than prophets as fundamental to being shia? Would they regard the leader of their sect, Tusi, a Kaffir for not following this? Or would they regard him shia but deviant?

They would excuse him as they excused those before him. Like I told you, some early Shi'a may have not even believed in infallibility.

It becomes an issue after someone rejects despite the plethora of evidence. And I will add, this doesn't just concern "essential beliefs", if someone rejected any ruling in the Shari'ah, while knowing it is part of the Revelation i.e the evidence has been presented, he has become a kafir. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Ibn Tayyar

[In Gods Name]

10 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

You seem to misunderstand again. The faqih isn't telling you to follow him to attain this aqeeda, he is telling his followers that if this person denies "x" belief then there are certain ahkam that come with his status.

The same way a faqih doesn't tell you to follow him in Tawheed because he believes in Tawheed, he tells his followers the ahkam that come with a person's denial of Tawheed.

I fully understand this. I maybe should have been clearer when explaining my disagreement. 

Even if scholar X believes a certain person who denies belief Y is a kaffir and there are certain rules to follow with that person, you are only really obliged to follow that if you agree that belief Y is part of the fundamentals of the religion.

Furthermore, you are not obliged in any way to even follow one scholar or Marjie. 

10 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

I don't know which scholars have said this. Some scholars may have said that there isn't enough evidence to support a certain position, or there is conflicting evidence, therefore tawaquf is safe.

Reading from the fuqaha, most of them seem to say that rejecting an essential is only kufr or deviance after you have to come to know of it i.e the evidence surrounding it. That is how they excuse certain companions or scholars for not holding or holding certain beliefs. 

Shaykh Tusi was considered one of the most knowledgeable scholars of all time. Khui doesn't even refer to him as Tusi, but 'the Shaykh'. He is considered the leader of the sect. He has authored two of our for canonical books , and one of our earliest most comprehensive works of Tafseer , at Tibyan.  No scholar who has a grain of honesty would excuse him based on not having the evidence. 

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The belief Imams are superior to prophets, according to Tusi and others, is not only not part of the fundamentals of the madhab, there isn't even good evidence to support this position outright. Nobody can claim, like Tawheed, that there is clear evidence.

Rather it is a very grey area, with disagreement, debate and wildly varying views. 

In such a confusing matter, the believer is not obliged to have an opinion on a secondary matter. They believe in the core fundamentals, they are not required to dig deeper into grey areas the Imams themselves have not spoken about.

Can you find a single statement , of authentic nature from any of the Imams which say that they are superior to all prophets , including ulul azam prophets? It is hardly fair for you to claim it is a fundamental of the madhab when you can not produce a single statement from the imams attesting to it. 

 

[In Gods Name]

11 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

 

It becomes an issue after someone rejects despite the plethora of evidence. And I will add, this doesn't just concern "essential beliefs", if someone rejected any ruling in the Shari'ah, while knowing it is part of the Revelation i.e the evidence has been presented, he has become a kafir. 

The majority of Sunnis and Shias believe the Quran is explicit when it states it has not undergone any alteration and will not do so. Allah will protect its verses.  So for someone to come and say not only are large parts of the Quran missing, several words have been taken out of a huge number of verses so as to completely change the meaning. 

Not only does this go against clear Quranic evidence, it also goes against the aql. I would argue no scholar has any right to arrive at the position that the Quran has been distorted and interpolated by omissions. 

Some scholars might argue this is not Kufr, but there is every chance this is pure Kufr on a degree far higher than anything we are discussing now. Hence i leave to Allah regarding what he will do with Majlisi and Kulayni, who not only believed in this, but promoted it. They misguided themselves and others. 

 

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

20 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Can you find a single statement , of authentic nature from any of the Imams which say that they are superior to all prophets , including ulul azam prophets? It is hardly fair for you to claim it is a fundamental of the madhab when you can not produce a single statement from the imams attesting to it. 

Salam

‘Ali 'Best of Mankind' said the Holy Prophet- reported by A’ysha

Muhammad Ibn Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i in his Kifayatu't-Talib, p. 119, ch.62, quotes from Ta'rikh al-Damishqi, Muhadith al-Sham, and Muhadith al-Iraq, narrating from Hudhaifa and Jabir that the Holy Prophet said: "‘Ali is the best of mankind; one who refuses to accept this is an infidel."

It is also reported from Ata that people asked A’ysha about ‘Ali and she said: "He is the best of mankind. No one except an infidel has any doubt of it."

He says that Hafiz Ibn Asakir in his Ta'rikh, a work comprised of 100 volumes three volumes of which are written in praise of ‘Ali, has reported this hadith from A’ysha.

Muhammad Ibn Talha Shafi'i in Matalibu's-Su'ul, p.17, Ibn Sabbagh Makki in Fusulu'l-Muhimma, report from Tirmidhi and Nisa'i that Abu Sa'id Khudri said: "During the days of the Holy Prophet we used to recognize the hypocrites by their animosity towards ‘Ali."

It is related in Fusulu'l-Muhimma that the Holy Prophet said to Amiru'l-Mu'minin ‘Ali: "O ‘Ali! To fight against you is to fight against me; your blood is my blood. I fight against him who fights against you; it is only the legitimate person who loves you, and it is the illegitimate one who has animosity towards you. It is only the believer who loves you, and it is only the hypocrite who is hostile to you."

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Sheikh: Such hadith are not unique to ‘Ali; they have also been narrated about other caliphs.

Well-Wisher: Kindly cite other such hadith by way of example.

Sheikh: Abdu'r-Rahman Ibn Malik Maghul narrates from his sources that Jabir said that the Holy Prophet of Allah said: "A believer has no animosity towards Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, and a hypocrite has no love for them."

Well-Wisher: I am again surprised to hear such a thing from you. Have you forgotten our mutual agreement on the first night that we would not rely on questionable hadith. You should not quote concocted hadith, whose narrators are liars and forgers. Quote authentic hadith.

Sheikh: Your response indicates that you have decided that if you hear any hadith from us, you will reject it.

Well-Wisher: It is not I alone who has rejected it. Even your own prominent ulama’ have rejected it. Refer to Mizanu'l-I'tidal of Dhahabi and Ta'rikh of Khatib al-Baghdadi, vol. X, p.236. You will find that most of the eminent commentators have written about the character of Abdu'r-Rahman Ibn Malik saying: "Verily, he was such a liar, a blasphemer, and a forger of hadith that no one has any doubt about it."

Please tell us if such a one-sided hadith narrated by a liar and forger, can be compared to those hadith which your prominent ulama’ have narrated and some of which I have already mentioned. I would advise you to consult Jami'u'l-Kabir, by Suyuti, vol. VI, p.390, Riyazu'n-Nazara, vol. IX, p.215, by Muhibu'd-din; Jami'i Tirmidhi, vol. II, p.299; Isti'ab, vol. III, p.46, by Ibn Abdu'l-Barr; Hilyatu'l-Auliya, vol. VI, p.295, by Hafiz Abu Nu'aim Matalibu's-Su'ul, p.17, by Muhammad Ibn Talha Shafi'i; Fusulu'l-Muhimma, p.126, by Ibn Sabbagh Maliki.

You will find that every one of them narrated in slightly different words from Abu'dh-Dharr Ghifari who said: "During the time of the Holy Prophet we used to recognize the hypocrites by three signs: the denial of Allah and the Holy Prophet, failing to offer prayers, and animosity towards ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib." It is reported from Abi Sa'id Khudri that Abu'dh-Dharr Ghifari said: "We used to recognize the hypocrites by their enmity against ‘Ali and in the time of the Holy Prophet we had no other sign of finding out the hypccrites except that they were hostile to ‘Ali."

https://www.al-islam.org/peshawar-nights-sayyid-muhammad-al-musawi-al-shirazi/ninth-session-friday-night-2nd-shaban-1345-ah

The rank of imamate is higher than that of general prophethood

Well-Wisher: You have not yet asked on what grounds I have made this statement, and therefore you say it is without reason. The best proof for my statement is the Holy Qur'an, which, narrating the life of the Prophet Abraham, says that, after giving him three tests (of life, wealth, and sons), Allah intended to make his rank more exalted.

Since prophethood and the title of Khalil (Friend) did not apparently warrant a higher rank, the office of Imamate was the only office of a higher order to which even a Prophet of Allah could be entrusted.

The Holy Qur'an says:

"And when his Lord tried Abraham with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: 'Surely I will make you an Imam of men.' Abraham said: 'And of my offspring?' 'My covenant does not include the unjust,' He said." (2:124)

This verse, which indicates the position of the Imamate, also proves that the rank of the Imamate is superior to that of prophethood, since the position of the Prophet Abraham was raised from prophethood to the Imamate.

Hafiz: This means, according to your reasoning, that ‘Ali's position was superior to that of the last Prophet. This is what the Ghalis believed, as you have yourself admitted.

General and special prophethood

Well-Wisher: I do not mean what you have concluded. As you know, there is a great difference between general prophethood, and special prophethood. The rank of the Imamate is higher than the rank of general prophethood, but lower than special prophethood. The last Prophet is the highest stage of special prophethood.

Nawab: Excuse my interruption. Weren't all the prophets sent by Allah? They are undoubtedly of the same rank. The Holy Qur'an says:

"We do not differentiate between any of the prophets." (2:285)

Then why have you differentiated between them and divided prophethood into two categories, general and special?

Well-Wisher: Of course this verse is true in its proper context. That is, so far as achieving the aim of prophethood is concerned (which means teaching the people about existence of Allah, the Day of Judgement, and the training of their minds), all the prophets from Adam to the last of the prophets, are equal. But they differ in their qualities, achievements, and rank.

Differences in the rank of the prophets

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Is a prophet who was sent to guide 1,000 people equal to one who sent to guide 30,000 people or to one sent to guide all of humanity? Let's take an example. Is the teacher of first-grade students equal to a teacher of fourth-grade students? Are the teachers of higher classes equal to professors or university teachers?

All belong to the same administration and work under the same general program, their aim being to educate students. Yet, in view of the teacher's knowledge, they are not equal.

Each is different from the other according to his learning, ability, and achievement. From the point of view of the aim of prophethood, all the prophets of Allah are equal. However, because of differences in rank and knowledge, they are different. The Holy Qur'an says:

"We have made some of these Apostles to excel the others; among them are they to whom Allah spoke, and some of them He exalted by (many degrees of) rank." (2:253)

Your own Jarullah Zamakhshari says in his Tafsir al-Kushshaf that the above verse means that our Prophet was superior in rank to all others because of his special merits, the most important of which was that he was the last of the prophets.

Nawab: I am glad you solved this problem, but I have another question, though it is somewhat irrelevant. Please tell us briefly the main characteristics of special prophethood.

Well-Wisher: There are many qualities peculiar to special prophethood, and there are innumerable reasons proving how one prophet of all of them is the special prophet of Allah. In fact, that stage concludes the cycle of prophethood.

But these sessions are not arranged to prove the prophethood of Allah for Muslims. If we were to discuss this topic fully, we would drift from the topic of the Imamate. I will, however, briefly discuss the point.

Characteristics of special prophethood

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The perfection of humanity lies in the perfection of the soul. Moral and spiritual perfection cannot be attained without purifying the soul. This purification is impossible unless one is guided by the power of wisdom. One is then able to rise higher and higher with the force of knowledge, and right action until he reaches the acme of humanity, as has been explained by ‘Ali. He said: "Man has been created with the power of speech, which is the essence of humanity.

If speech is adorned with knowledge and action, it resembles the existence of the ethereal realm, which is the origin of man's creation.When his speech reaches the place of temperance and is cleared of all physical matter; it becomes one with the ethereal realm. Then it leaves the animal world and reaches the highest stage of humanity."

Man's power of articulation renders him superior to all existence. But there is one condition attached to it: that he cleanse his soul of all impurities with knowledge and right action. These two factors in man are like two wings of a bird, which fly higher according to the strength of the wings. Similarly, man's level of human attainment rises according to his knowledge, and right action. To pass beyond the province of animality and to reach the sphere of humanity depends upon the perfection of the soul.

The man who combines in himself the faculties of knowledge and right action and reaches the third of three classes of men (the common people, the elite, and the most elite), arrives at the lowest stage of prophethood. When such a man becomes the object of Allah's special attention, he becomes a prophet. Of course prophethood also has different stages. A prophet may reach the highest point in the highest of these three classes.

This rank is the highest in the sphere of possibility, which the sages call the First Wisdom, and which is the First Effect or the First Consequence. There is no rank higher than this in the realm of existence. This position is occupied by the last of the prophets, who is second to none except the First Cause. When the Prophet was raised to this highest stage, prophethood was concluded.

The Imamate is a stage lower than the highest stage of prophethood, but it is a stage higher than all other ranks of prophethood. Since ‘Ali was raised to the stage higher than prophethood and was one in spirit with the Holy Prophet, he was endowed with the office of the Imamate and was thus superior to all previous prophets.

Hafiz: The last part of your remarks is perplexing. First, you say that ‘Ali was at the stage of prophethood; second, that he was one in spirit with the Prophet Muhammad; third, that he was superior to the other prophets. What are your arguments to prove the truth of your assertions?

Arguments for the rank of prophethood for ‘Ali from hadith of manzila

Well-Wisher: That ‘Ali attained the rank of prophethood can be proven by the reference to the Hadith of ‘Manzila’ (Tradition Regarding Ranks), which has been unanimously narrated in more or less the same words. The last of the Holy prophets repeated a number of times and in different congregations: "Are you not content that you are to me what Aaron was to Moses, except that there shall be no prophet after me?" On other occasions he said to his followers: "‘Ali is to me as Aaron was to Moses."

Hafiz: The authenticity of this hadith has not been proven. Even if it were proven to be true, it would be a single narration and therefore unacceptable.

Authenticity of hadith of manzila from the usual sources

Well-Wisher: In providing information regarding the genuineness of this hadith, I will refer to your books. It is not a single narration. It has been authenticated by your own distinguished ulama’, like Suyuti, Hakim Nishapuri, and others, who have proved its reliability with unanimous sources. Some of them are the following:

(1) Abu Abdullah Bukhari in his Sahih, Volume III, the Book of Ghazawa, Qazwa Tabuk, p. 54, and in his book Bida'u'l-Khalq, p. 180;

(2) Muslim ibn Hajjaj in his Sahih, printed in Egypt, 1290 A.H., Volume II, under the heading, "The Merits of ‘Ali;" pages 236-7;

(3) Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal in ‘Musnad’, Volume I, "Grounds for Naming Husain," pages 98, 118, 119; and footnote of the same book, Part 5, page 31;

(4) Abu Abdu'r-Rahman Nisa'i in ‘Khasa'isi'l-Alawiyya’, page 19;

(5) Muhammad ibn Sura Tirmidhi in his Jami';

(6) Hafiz Ibn Hajar Asqalani in Isaba, Volume II, page 507;

(7) Ibn Hajar Makki in ‘Sawa'iq Muhriqa’, chapter 9, pages 30 and 34,

(8) Hakim Abu Abdullah Muhammad ibn Abdullah Nishapuri in ‘Mustadrak’, Volume III, page 109;

(9) Jalalu'd-Din Suyuti in ‘Ta'rikhu'l-Khulafa’, page 65;

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(10) Ibn Abd Rabbih in ‘Iqdu'l-Farid’, Volume II, page 194;

(11) Ibn Abdu'l-Birr in ‘Isti'ab’, Volume 2, page 473;

(12) Muhammad ibn Sa'd Katib Waqidi in ‘Tabaqatu'l-Kubra’;

(13) Imam Fakhru'd-Din Razi in ‘Tafsir Mafatihu'l-Ghaib’;

(14) Muhammad ibn Jarir Tabari in his ‘Tafsir’; as well as in his ‘Ta'rikh’;

(15) Sayyid Mu'min Shablanji in Nuru'l-Absar, page 68;

(16) Kamalu'd-Din Abu Salim Muhammad ibn Talha Shafi'i in ‘Matalibu's-Su'ul’, page 17;

(17) Mir Sayyid ‘Ali ibn Shahabu'd-Din Hamadani in ‘Mawaddatu'l-Qurba’, towards the end of Mawadda 7;

(18) Nuru'd-Din ‘Ali ibn Muhammad Maliki Makki, known as Ibn Sabbagh Maliki, in ‘Fusulu'l-Muhimma’, pages 23 and 125;

(19) ‘Ali ibn Burhanu'd-Din Shafi'i in ‘Siratu'l-Halabiyya’, Volume II, page 49;

(20) Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in ‘Yanabiu'l-Mawadda’,

(21) Mulla ‘Ali Muttaqi in ‘Kanzu'l-Ummal’, Volume VI pages 152-153;

(22) Ahmad ibn ‘Ali Khatib in ‘Ta'rikh Baghdad’;

(23) Ibn Maghazili Shafi'i in ‘Manaqib’;

(24) Muwaffaq ibn Ahmad Khawarizmi in ‘Manaqib’;

(25) Ibn Athir Jazari ‘Ali ibn Muhammad in ‘Usudu'l-Ghaiba’;

(26) Ibn Kathir Damishqi in his ‘Ta'rikh’;

(27) Ala'u'd-Daula Ahmad ibn Muhammad in ‘Urwatu'l-Wuthqa’;

(28) Ibn Athir Mubarak ibn Muhammad Shaibani in ‘Jami'u'l-Usul’;

(29) Ibn Hajar Asqalani in ‘Tahdhibu't-Tahdhib’;

(30) Abu'l Qasim Husain ibn Muhammad Raghib Isfahani in ‘Muhadhiratu'l-Udaba'’, Volume II page 212.

Many other eminent scholars of yours have narrated this grand ‘hadith’ with slight variations in words from many of the companions of the Holy Prophet, such as:

(1) ‘Umar ibn Khattab,

(2) Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas,

(3) Abdullah ibn Abbas,

(4) Abdullah ibn Mas'ud,

(5) Jabir ibn Abdullah Ansari,

(6) Abu Huraira,

(7) Abu Sa'id Khudri,

(8) Jabir ibn Sumra,

(9) Malik ibn Huwairi's,

(10) Bara'a ibn 'Azib,

(11) Zaid ibn Arqam,

(12) Abu Rafi',

(13) Abdullah ibn Ubai,

(14) Abu Suraiha,

(15) Hudhaifa ibn Assad,

(16) Anas ibn Malik,

(17) Abu Huraira Aslami,

(18) Abu Ayyub Ansari,

(19) Sa'id ibn Musayyab,

(20) Habib ibn Abi Thabit,

(21) Sharhbil ibn Sa'd,

(22) Umm Salma (wife of the Holy Prophet),

(23) Asma bint Umais (wife of Abu Bakr),

(24) Aqil ibn Abi Talib,

(25) Mu'awiya ibn Abu Sufyan, and a host of other companions. In short, all of them have related with slight variation of words that the Holy Prophet (S) said: "O ‘Ali, you are to me as Aaron was to Moses, except that there will be no prophet after me."

Are all these great ulama’ - and there are many I have not mentioned - not sufficient to prove that this hadith has been unanimously accepted as true? Would you now confirm that you were under a misunderstanding?

Since you assume an attitude of doubt in regard to the veracity of this hadith, you should consult Kifayatu't-Talib fi Manaqib al-’Ali Ibn Abu Talib, chapter 7, compiled by Muhammad ibn Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i, who is one of the most prominent ulama’ of your sect. After quoting six hadith in praise of ‘Ali, this author comments (page 149) on this hadith as follows:

"This is a hadith whose authenticity has been acknowledged by all. It has been narrated by the most learned Imams and Huffaz (those who know the Qur'an by heart), like Abu Abdullah Bukhari in his Sahih, Muslim ibn Hujjaj in his Sahih, Abu Dawud in his Sunan, Abu Isa Tirmidhi in his Jami', Abu Abdu'r-Rahman in his Sunan, Ibn Maja Qazwini in his Sunan. All of them have unanimously acknowledged its authenticity. Hakim Nishapuri has said that this hadith has entered the stage of continuity."

I'm sure that I needn't present further evidence to show that this hadith is genuine.

https://www.al-islam.org/peshawar-nights-sayyid-muhammad-al-musawi-al-shirazi/fourth-session-sunday-night-2nd-rajab-1345-ah#rank-imamate-higher-general-prophethood

Since the Holy Prophet was superior to all other prophets, ‘Ali was also superior to them

In Ihya'u'l-Ulum by Imam Ghazali, Sharhe Nahju'l-Balagha by Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali, the Tafsir by Imam Fakhru'd-Din Razi, and Tafsirs by Jarullah Zamakhshari, Baidhawi, Nishapuri, etc., you will find this hadith of the Holy Prophet: "The ulama’ of my community are like the prophets of the Bani Isra'il."

In another hadith he said: "The ulama’ of the Prophet's community were equal to or better than the prophets of the Bani Isra'il simply because their source of knowledge was that fountainhead of learning, the Prophet Muhammad.

Therefore, ‘Ali Ibn Abu Talib was definitely superior to the prophets, since the Prophet said: "I am the city of knowledge, and ‘Ali is its gate." He also said: I am the house of wisdom and ‘Ali is its gate." When ‘Ali, himself, was asked about this topic, he explained some aspects of his superiority to the prophets of the Children of Isra'il.

On the 20th of Ramadhan, when ‘Ali was on his death bed following the attack by Abdu'r-Rahman Ibn Muljim Muradi, he asked Imam Hasan to call in the Shi’as who had gathered at the door of his house.

When they entered, they surrounded his bed and wept silently. ‘Ali said: You may ask any question you like before I leave you, but your questions should be brief." One of those present was Sa'sa'a Ibn Suwhan. Your own great ulama’, like Ibn Abdu'l-Birr and Ibn Sa'ad, have written about his life and character, have relied on him, confirming that he was a man of great learning.

Sa'sa'a said to ‘Ali: "Let me know who is superior, you or Adam." The Holy Imam said: "It is not proper for a man to praise himself, but according to the maxim: 'Declare the blessings that Allah has given you,' I tell you that I am superior to Adam." When asked why this was so, ‘Ali explained that Adam had every means of mercy, comfort, and blessings for him in paradise. He was asked simply to abstain from the forbidden food. But he could not restrain himself, and he ate from the tree.

As a result, he was expelled from paradise. Allah did not forbid him, ‘Ali, from eating wheat (which, according to Muslim belief was the forbidden 'tree'). But since he had no inclination towards this temporal world, he voluntarily refrained from eating wheat. (The point of ‘Ali's remark was that excellence of a man before Allah lies in piety and devotion, and that the height of piety lies in abstaining even from what is permissible.)

Sa'sa'a asked: "Who is superior, you or Noah?" ‘Ali replied: "I am superior. Noah called his men to worship Allah, but they did not obey. Their shameful mistreatment was torture to him. He cursed them and invoked Allah: 'O my Lord! Leave not on the earth a single person of the unjust ones.' After the death of the Prophet, even though the people caused me extreme difficulty, I never cursed them. I suffered their torment with patience."

Sa'sa'a asked: "Who is superior, you or Abraham?" ‘Ali replied: "I am superior, for Abraham said:

'My Lord! Show me how Thou Givest life to the dead.' He said: 'What! do you not believe?' He said: 'Yes, but that my heart may be at ease.' (2:260)

My faith was such that I said: 'If the veil over the unseen were lifted, my faith would not increase."

Sa'as'a asked: "Who is superior, you or Moses?" The Holy Imam replied: "I am superior, for when Almighty Allah ordered Moses to go to Egypt to invite Pharaoh to the truth, Moses said:

'My Lord! Surely I killed one of them, so I am afraid that they will slay me. And my brother Aaron, he is more eloquent of tongue than I. Therefore send him with me as an aide, to help me. Surely I fear that they will reject me." (28:33-34)

The Holy Prophet ordered me, by the command of Allah, to go to Mecca and to recite the verses of the Chapter 'Al-Bara'a' from the top of the Ka'ba to the Quraish infidels. I was not afraid, even though there were few people there who had not lost a near relative by my sword. Obeying his order, I performed my duty alone. I recited the verses of 'Al-Bara'a' and returned."

Sa'sa'a asked: "Who is superior, you or Jesus?" ‘Ali said: "I am superior, for when Mary became pregnant by the Grace of Allah, and the time of her delivery approached, a revelation was granted to her: 'Leave this Holy House for this is a House for prayers, not a place for the delivery of children.' Accordingly, she left the Holy House and went to the wilderness where she gave birth to Jesus.

But when my mother, Fatima Bint al-Asad, felt labor pains within the precincts of the Holy Ka'ba, she clung to the wall and prayed to Allah in the name of that House and the builder of that House, to lessen her pain. Soon a fissure appeared in the wall, and my mother heard a mysterious voice telling her, "O Fatima! Enter the House of the Ka'ba.' She went in, and I was born inside of the Holy Ka'ba."

The mirror of all the prophets as shown by the hadith of similitude (Hadith al-Tashbih)

It is also recorded in the books of your ulama’ that ‘Ali was the mirror of the high qualities of all the prophets. Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali in his Sharhe Nahju'l-Balagha, Volume XI, page 449, Hafiz Abu Bakr Faqih Shafi'i, Ahmad Ibn Husain Baihaqi in Manaqib, Imam Ahmad Ibn Hanbal in Musnad, Imam Fakhru'd-Din Razi in Tafsir al-Kabir in connection with the verse of Mubahala, Muhyi'd-Din Ibn Arabi in Yawaqit-o-Jawahir, Issue 32, page 172;

Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, the beginning of Chapter 40 on the authority of Musnad of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Sahih of Baihaqi, and Sharhi'l-Mawaqif wa't-Tariqati'l-Muhammadiyya, Nuru'd-Din Maliki in Fusuli'l-Muhimma, page 120; from Baihaqi; Muhammad ibn Talha Shafi'i in Matalibu's-Su'ul, page 22.

And Muhammad ibn Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i in Kifayatu't-Talib, Chapter 23, have narrated from the Holy Prophet with slight differences of words here and there, saying: "Whoever wishes to see the knowledge of Adam, the piety of Noah, the submission of Abraham, the sublimity of Moses, or the devotion of Jesus, may look upon ‘Ali Ibn Abu Talib."

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Mir Sayyid ‘Ali Hamadani has narrated the same hadith with some additions, in his Mawaddatu'l-Qurba, Mawadda VIII. He narrates from Jabir that the Prophet said: "Verily, Allah has combined ninety qualities of the prophets in ‘Ali, which He has not given to anyone else." The great Hafiz Muhammad Ibn Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i, after quoting this hadith, makes this comment: "‘Ali was similar to Adam in knowledge in that Allah taught Adam everything, as He says in the Holy Qur'an,

'And He taught Adam All the names....'" (2:31)

Similarly, ‘Ali had knowledge of all things. Because of knowledge which came directly from Allah, Adam was granted the vicegerency of Allah, as the Holy Qur'an says:

"...I am going to place in the earth a Caliph...." (2:30)

Since Adam's knowledge led to his superiority, so that even the angels prostrated themselves in obeisance to him, ‘Ali was also most exalted of the whole creation and the caliph after the Prophet. ‘Ali's knowledge is similar to Noah's in that ‘Ali was vehement against the infidels and compassionate toward the believers.

Allah praised him in the Holy Qur'an:

"...And those who are with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves." (48:29)

This is another proof that this verse was revealed in praise of ‘Ali, as I have said earlier. Noah was very harsh towards the infidels, as the Holy Qur'an says:

"And Noah said: 'My Lord! Leave not upon the land any dweller from among the unbelievers.'" (71:26)

‘Ali was similar to Abraham in tenderness of heart. The Holy Qur'an says of Abraham:

"Most surely, Abraham was very tender-hearted." (9:114)

‘Ali possessed all the qualities and attributes, which the other prophets possessed individually. This unanimously acknowledged hadith proves that ‘Ali possessed the highest virtues, each of which was equivalent to the most exalted qualities of the prophets. Obviously, one who possessed the highest virtues of all the prophets excelled all others in rank.

Quote

Sheikh Sulayman Balkhi Hanafi in his Yanabiu'l-Mawadda, Chapter 40, quotes from Manaqib of Khawarizmi through Muhammad Ibn Mansur, who said that he heard Ahmad Ibn Hanbal say, "There were no such praises for any of the companions of the Prophet, as there were for ‘Ali Ibn Abu Talib." Muhammad Ibn Yusuf Ganji Shafi'i also narrates words to the same effect.

Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali in his Sharhe-Nahju'l Balagha, Volume I, page 46, says: "‘Ali was the most fitting person for the position of Wilaya (guardianship) by virtue of his excellence. With the exception of the Prophet of Allah, he was the most deserving person for the office of caliph."

‘Ali was certainly most deserving of the caliphate, but he was cast aside by the political maneuvering of lesser men. At least they should have informed ‘Ali that they were convening a meeting at Saqifa Bani Sa'da to deliberate on the important issue of electing a Caliph. They did not do so in order to deprive him of his right of succession.

https://www.al-islam.org/peshawar-nights-sayyid-muhammad-al-musawi-al-shirazi/seventh-session-wednesday-night-29th-rajab-1345#holy-prophet-was-superior-all-other-prophets-‘ali-was-also-superior-them

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 9/28/2023 at 5:08 PM, In Gods Name said:

t's also telling how someone can believe in a distorted Quran and be regarded as Muslim. You deny a clear verse where Allah says he will protect the Quran. You deny the justice of Allah in preserving guidance. You deny the very value of the Quran. 

Salam this totally destroys your nonsense about accusing Kulayni (رضي الله عنه) to beleiving to distortion of holy Quran which  Kulayni has mentioned that Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) has full knowledge of holy Quran which if you say Quran has been distorted so then you insult to imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) by accusing him to not having full knowledge of holy Quran . 

 

«فَلْیشَرِّقِ الْحَکمُ وَ لْیغَرِّبْ أَمَا وَ اللَّهِ لَا یصِیبُ الْعِلْمَ إِلَّا مِنْ أَهْلِ بَیتٍ نَزَلَ عَلَیهِمْ جَبْرَئِیل»

If you travel to the east and west of the world, swear by god! You won’t find real Islam unless from “Ahl al-Bayt” who “Gabriel” was sent down to them.

“Kulayni” – “Al-Kafi” – vol. 1, p 400

 

These narratives show that knowledge of Imam “Sadiq” [AS] has root in resource and revelation. His gotten knowledge from his father, grandfather, commander of the faithful [AS] and Prophet Muhammad [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)].

The knowledge of these holy lights return to Prophet Muhammad [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)], the one that Quran says about him:

(وَ ما ینْطِقُ عَنِ الْهَوی إِنْ هُوَ إِلاَّ وَحْی یوحی)

Nor does he speak out of desire, Indeed it is not except a Revelation which is revealed.

Sura An-Najm – verses 3 – 4

And there is also a narrative from Imam “Sadiq” [AS] written in “Al-Kafi” book:

«وَ اللَّهِ إِنِّی لَأَعْلَمُ کتَابَ اللَّهِ مِنْ أَوَّلِهِ إِلَی آخِرِهِ کأَنَّهُ فِی کفِّی فِیهِ خَبَرُ السَّمَاءِ وَ خَبَرُ الْأَرْضِ وَ خَبَرُ مَا کانَ وَ خَبَرُ مَا هُوَ کائِنٌ قَالَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ فِیهِ تِبْیانُ کلِّ شَی‌ء»

Swear by god! I know god’s book {Quran} more than all of you, from its beginning to the end, I know all sciences of Quran like palm of my hand, news of heaven and ground is there, news of ancestors and posterity is there.

“Kulayni” – Al-Kafi – vol. 1, p 229

 

Quote

Despite all this, Imam “Sadiq” [AS] would keep Sunnis’ rights. I’ve quoted these narratives for dears several times that all of them know them by their heart. Imam “Sadiq” [AS] says:

«اقْرَأْ عَلَی مَنْ تَرَی أَنَّهُ یطِیعُنِی مِنْهُمْ وَ یأْخُذُ بِقَوْلِی السَّلَامَ وَ أُوصِیکم» «صِلُوا عَشَائِرَکم» «وَ اشْهَدُوا جَنَائِزَهُم» «وَ عُودُوا مَرْضَاهُم» «قِیلَ هَذَا جَعْفَرِی فَیسُرُّنِی ذَلِک وَ یدْخُلُ عَلَی مِنْهُ السُّرُورُ وَ قِیلَ هَذَا أَدَبُ جَعْفَر» «وَ إِذَا کانَ عَلَی غَیرِ ذَلِک دَخَلَ عَلَی بَلَاؤُهُ وَ عَارُه»

Remember me to those who accept me and listen to me and tell them to say prayer behind Sunni {as leader of mass prayer} and attend their funeral procession and visit their patients then they will say that this person has been raised in Imam “Sadiq” [AS]’s doctrine and it makes me happy.

“Kulayni” – Al-Kafi – vol. 2, p 636

https://www.valiasr-aj.com/english/mobile_shownews.php?idnews=501

[Ibn Tayyar]

On 9/29/2023 at 6:59 PM, In Gods Name said:

I fully understand this. I maybe should have been clearer when explaining my disagreement. 

Even if scholar X believes a certain person who denies belief Y is a kaffir and there are certain rules to follow with that person, you are only really obliged to follow that if you agree that belief Y is part of the fundamentals of the religion.

There is no disagreement here. The same scholar himself will tell you to gain knowledge in pursuit of finding evidence for your beliefs in the Usool. 

On 9/29/2023 at 6:59 PM, In Gods Name said:

Shaykh Tusi was considered one of the most knowledgeable scholars of all time. Khui doesn't even refer to him as Tusi, but 'the Shaykh'. He is considered the leader of the sect. He has authored two of our for canonical books , and one of our earliest most comprehensive works of Tafseer , at Tibyan.  No scholar who has a grain of honesty would excuse him based on not having the evidence. 

Brother, your arguments are very contradictory. Yes, Shaykh Al-Tusi is held in high regard, but so is Shaykh Al-Saduq who you seemingly dismissed, despite his contribution in hadith and Fiqh. This isn't a scholar vs scholar match, and just as Al-Tusi was mutawaqif, Al-Saduq reached certainly in his belief in the superiority of the Imams, as he called it a wajib belief.

Not only have ulama excused scholars for incorrect beliefs, they have excused companions of the Imams (عليه السلام) for their incorrect beliefs. I mentioned before, that some of the companions of the Imams may have not even believed in matters Al-Tusi himself would consider essential. 

Some of the companions of the Imams were even excused for incorrect beliefs, so why can't the ulama be excused?

On 9/29/2023 at 6:59 PM, In Gods Name said:

The belief Imams are superior to prophets, according to Tusi and others, is not only not part of the fundamentals of the madhab, there isn't even good evidence to support this position outright. Nobody can claim, like Tawheed, that there is clear evidence.

Rather it is a very grey area, with disagreement, debate and wildly varying views. 

In such a confusing matter, the believer is not obliged to have an opinion on a secondary matter. They believe in the core fundamentals, they are not required to dig deeper into grey areas the Imams themselves have not spoken about.

Can you find a single statement , of authentic nature from any of the Imams which say that they are superior to all prophets , including ulul azam prophets? It is hardly fair for you to claim it is a fundamental of the madhab when you can not produce a single statement from the imams attesting to it. 

I will bring forth sahih hadiths which support this view in due time insha Allah. I will make a seperate post if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allows.

[In Gods Name]

There is acceptable ikhtilaaf.

 

[In Gods Name]

Another gem by Shaykh Tusi, the greatest classical scholar of the sect:

ويقول الشيخ الطوسي أيضاً في كتابه المذكور: «ولم نوجب أن يكون [الإمام] عالماً بما لا تعلُّق له بالأحكام الشرعية

Shaikh Tusi wrote in his book Talkhis al Shafi (Volume 1 page 252): "It is not wajib for the Imam to have any knowledge of things which are not directly related to Islamic laws.  

والامام أيضا لم يقف على كل هذه التخاليط التي رويت لأنه لا يعلم الغيب، وإنما هو عبد صالح يعلم الكتاب والسنة، ويعلم من أخبار شيعته ما ينهى إليه

[Cool]

10 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

ولم نوجب

Ok, so what's the problem here dude if something is not wajib? Does that negates their knowledge? 

Here is a hadith from his book:

 / 54 - حدثنا محمد بن محمد، قال: حدثنا أبو جعفر محمد بن علي بن الحسين بن موسى بن بابويه القمي (رحمه الله)، قال: حدثني أبي، قال: حدثنا محمد بن يحيى العطار، قال: حدثنا أحمد بن أبي عبد الله البرقي، عن أبيه، عن خلف بن حماد الأزدي، عن أبي الحسن العبدي، عن الأعمش، عن عباية بن ربعي، قال: كان علي أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) كثيرا ما يقول: سلوني قبل أن تفقدوني، فوالله ما من أرض مخصبة ولا مجدبة، ولا فئة تضل مائة أو تهدي مائة إلا وأنا أعلم قائدها وسائقها وناعقها إلى يوم القيامة

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1334_الأمالي-الشيخ-الطوسي/الصفحة_84

(Ask me before you lose me, for by God, there is no fertile or barren land, nor a group that leads a hundred astray or guides a hundred, except that I know its leader, driver, and caller until the Day of Resurrection.)

[Guest Cool]

Here is the text from Ayatullah Kamal al-Haydari's book:

أنّ أئمّة أهل البيت عليهم السلام هم أعلم من جميع الأنبياء والمرسلين - ما عدا نبينا صلّى الله عليه وآله - بمن فيهم الأنبياء أُولو العزم عليهم صلوات الله أجمعين

https://ito.lib.eshia.ir/84362/1/156

[In Gods Name]

May Allah bless Shaykh Tusi, who is considered the greatest classical scholar and given the title 'Shaykh al-Taifah' and buried near Imam Ali in Najaf.

No Shia should be bullied to believe Imams are greater than Prophets.

The Ambiya have their special position, and the ale of Muhammed have their special position.

There is therefore Ikhtilaaf on this issue. I side with Shaykh Tusi, each group have their own special position, and i leave it to Allah. There is no good evidence to support the Ahlulbayt being superior to Prophets, let alone Ulul-azam prophets. This would basically mean after the Prophet died, God appointed 12 super-prophets in everything but name!  What on earth would sealing Prophethood mean then? Why not just continue Prophethood if you're going to send 12 super-prophets in everything but name?

Rather the Ahlulbayt were pious Ulema, guided by Allah, blessed by Allah, and given the ability to see the reality of sin.  They did not perform miracles, they did not have Ilm al Ghayb - only limited bits inherited from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), they did not read minds, they did not even know what would happen tomorrow. They ate, wept, used the toilet, had marital relations. They can not grant you your duas, and there is no evidence when you supplicate in all corners of the earth that they can even hear you. They are pious slaves of Allah, guides and those who best elucidated the Sunnah of the Prophet. They were the best of people of their time, and the second of the two weighty things. Unfortunately, the Kufan Ghulat and the distortions and chinese whispers of history, turned them into Ulama al-Abrar, chosen by Allah as the ale of Muhammed, into these demi-God super-Prophets.

Edited November 12, 2023 by In Gods Name

[Ibn Tayyar]

1 hour ago, In Gods Name said:

May Allah bless Shaykh Tusi, who is considered the greatest classical scholar and given the title 'Shaykh al-Taifah' and buried near Imam Ali in Najaf.

No Shia should be bullied to believe Imams are greater than Prophets.

The Ambiya have their special position, and the ale of Muhammed have their special position.

There is therefore Ikhtilaaf on this issue. I side with Shaykh Tusi, each group have their own special position, and i leave it to Allah. There is no good evidence to support the Ahlulbayt being superior to Prophets, let alone Ulul-azam prophets. This would basically mean after the Prophet died, God appointed 12 super-prophets in everything but name!  What on earth would sealing Prophethood mean then? Why not just continue Prophethood if you're going to send 12 super-prophets in everything but name?

Rather the Ahlulbayt were pious Ulema, guided by Allah, blessed by Allah, and given the ability to see the reality of sin.  They did not perform miracles, they did not have Ilm al Ghayb - only limited bits inherited from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), they did not read minds, they did not even know what would happen tomorrow. They ate, wept, used the toilet, had marital relations. They can not grant you your duas, and there is no evidence when you supplicate in all corners of the earth that they can even hear you. They are pious slaves of Allah, guides and those who best elucidated the Sunnah of the Prophet. They were the best of people of their time, and the second of the two weighty things. Unfortunately, the Kufan Ghulat and the distortions and chinese whispers of history, turned them into Ulama al-Abrar, chosen by Allah as the ale of Muhammed, into these demi-God super-Prophets.

You say there is no good evidence, yet most ulama disagree with you. Do you believe they made this claim based on no evidence?

You are the same person who rails on about not doing taqleed in matters of aqaid, but at the same time you are hanging on to one mas'ala where the shaykh was mutawaqif as proof for the continuation of your position. Just as the Shaykh (rah) can be wrong in matters of Fiqh, he can be wrong in matters of aqaid. Even the companions of the Imams (عليه السلام) disagreed with eachother on matters that we now know are essential (such as isma), so while the Shaykh (rah) has his position, it is no more important than those of other ulama who came before him, were present alongside him, or came after him, and even in his own era, most of the Imami scholars believed in the superiority of the Imams (عليه السلام). 

What matters to us is the sayings of the Imams (عليه السلام), and there are many hadiths which support the position that the Imams are the greatest creation after the Prophet (saww). 

First of all, they are no doubt more knowledgable, as they inherited all the knowledge of all previous Prophets. This is clear in our most authentic hadiths, and having more knowledge is a fadhila (virtue). Those "limited bits" of Ilm Al-Ghayb, as you call it, is actually the Ilm of all Prophets, so what they have is more than those prior with the exception of our Prophet (saww). And in fact their knowledge can increase by asking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to allow them to attain a new knowledge, or through the speaking of the Angels to them, or through ilhaam. 

Secondly, the fadhail mentioned in the ahadith seem to be unique to the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), such as the following authentic hadiths:

'Ali b. Muhammad from Sahl b. Ziyad from Musa b. al-Qasim b. Mu`awiya and Muhammad b. Yahya from al-`Amraki b. `Ali together from `Ali b. Ja`far from Abu’l Hasan Musa عليه السلام.

He said: Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said: Allah عز وجل created us and He made our creation the best. He formed us and made our form the best. He made us the treasuries of His heaven and His Earth. For us the tree spoke, and with our worship Allah عز وجل is worshiped – if it were not for us, Allah would not be worshiped. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 505)

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235036328-mutabar-al-kafi-volume-1/

From Abd Allah bin Sinan from Abi Abd Allah (عليه السلام) said: “Adam (عليه السلام)said: ‘O Lord, by the right of Muhammad, Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Hussain, forgive me.’ So Allah revealed to him (عليه السلام): ‘O Adam, and what do you know about Muhammad?’ So he (عليه السلام) said: ‘When I was created, I raise my head and I saw on the arsh (throne) written – Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, Ali Amir al-Muminin’”

https://discovershiaislam.blogspot.com/2013/01/making-dua-in-right-of-muhammad-wa-aley.html?m=1

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from ibn al-Ri’ab from Bukayr ibn ‘A‘yan who has said the following. "Abu Ja‘far ((عليه السلام).) would say, "Allah made our Shi‘a to make a covenant to acknowledge our Wilaya (Leadership with Divine Authority) when they were small particles. It was the day when He made all particles to make a covenant to acknowledge Him as the Lord and Muhammad (s.a) as the Prophet. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, presented to Muhammad his ’Umma (followers) in clay and they were shadows. He created them from the clay out of which Adam was created. Allah created the spirits of our Shi‘a two thousand years before their bodies were created. He presented them to the Holy Prophet (s.a) and the Messenger of Allah recognized them. Ali ((عليه السلام).) recognized and we recognize them by their accent."

https://discovershiaislam.blogspot.com/2012/01/existence-of-ahlulbaytas-before-adamas.html?m=1

My father - Allah have mercy on Him - said: Sa`d b. `Abdullah narrated to us, he said: Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa narrated to us, from Hasan b. Sa`eed, from Fudalah b. Ayyub, from Abban b. `Uthman, from Muhammad b. Muslim, who said: I heard Aba `Abdillah (al-Sadiq) [a] say: Indeed Allah, Mighty and Exalted, created certain creatures from His light, and a mercy from His mercy for the sake of His Mercy. For these are the eye of Allah that sees, and His ear that hears, and His tongue that speaks to His creation by His permission, and the safeguards over what has descended from (His) justifications and wanrnings and proofs. And through them He wards off grievances, and through them He sends down mercy, and through them He enlivens the dead, and causes to die the living. And through them He afflicts His creation (with tribulations), and through them He judges cases among His creation.

I asked: May I be your ransom - Who are these?

He [a] replied: Al-Awsiyaa (the vice-regents).

https://discovershiaislam.blogspot.com/2012/01/existence-of-ahlulbaytas-before-adamas.html?m=1

The second assertion is even worse than the first, as you claim the Imams (عليه السلام) did not perform miracles. I suggest you be careful of what you say, lest you attribute a lie to an Imam (عليه السلام) without sufficient knowledge. Here is a great (and long) list of authentic hadiths mentioning the miracles of the Imams (as):

https://discovershiaislam.blogspot.com/2012/06/miracles-of-masomeenas.html?m=1

[Inspector]

2 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

No Shia should be bullied to believe Imams are greater than Prophets.

 Should I quote the book Wilayat al-Takwiniyyah of Ayatullah Kamal al-Haydari?  Even he believes that Imams are greater in station than rest of the Prophets (peace be upon them all), except Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

You know more than Kamal al-Haydari? No, Kamal al-Haydari must be a liar, deviant, misguided person lol. 

 

[In Gods Name]

1 hour ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

You say there is no good evidence, yet most ulama disagree with you. Do you believe they made this claim based on no evidence?

You are the same person who rails on about not doing taqleed in matters of aqaid, but at the same time you are hanging on to one mas'ala where the shaykh was mutawaqif as proof for the continuation of your position. Just as the Shaykh (rah) can be wrong in matters of Fiqh, he can be wrong in matters of aqaid. Even the companions of the Imams (عليه السلام) disagreed with eachother on matters that we now know are essential (such as isma), so while the Shaykh (rah) has his position, it is no more important than those of other ulama who came before him, were present alongside him, or came after him, and even in his own era, most of the Imami scholars believed in the superiority of the Imams (عليه السلام). 

What matters to us is the sayings of the Imams (عليه السلام), and there are many hadiths which support the position that the Imams are the greatest creation after the Prophet (saww). 

First of all, they are no doubt more knowledgable, as they inherited all the knowledge of all previous Prophets. This is clear in our most authentic hadiths, and having more knowledge is a fadhila (virtue). Those "limited bits" of Ilm Al-Ghayb, as you call it, is actually the Ilm of all Prophets, so what they have is more than those prior with the exception of our Prophet (saww). And in fact their knowledge can increase by asking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to allow them to attain a new knowledge, or through the speaking of the Angels to them, or through ilhaam. 

Secondly, the fadhail mentioned in the ahadith seem to be unique to the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), such as the following authentic hadiths:

'Ali b. Muhammad from Sahl b. Ziyad from Musa b. al-Qasim b. Mu`awiya and Muhammad b. Yahya from al-`Amraki b. `Ali together from `Ali b. Ja`far from Abu’l Hasan Musa عليه السلام.

He said: Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said: Allah عز وجل created us and He made our creation the best. He formed us and made our form the best. He made us the treasuries of His heaven and His Earth. For us the tree spoke, and with our worship Allah عز وجل is worshiped – if it were not for us, Allah would not be worshiped. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 505)

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235036328-mutabar-al-kafi-volume-1/

From Abd Allah bin Sinan from Abi Abd Allah (عليه السلام) said: “Adam (عليه السلام)said: ‘O Lord, by the right of Muhammad, Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Hussain, forgive me.’ So Allah revealed to him (عليه السلام): ‘O Adam, and what do you know about Muhammad?’ So he (عليه السلام) said: ‘When I was created, I raise my head and I saw on the arsh (throne) written – Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, Ali Amir al-Muminin’”

https://discovershiaislam.blogspot.com/2013/01/making-dua-in-right-of-muhammad-wa-aley.html?m=1

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from ibn al-Ri’ab from Bukayr ibn ‘A‘yan who has said the following. "Abu Ja‘far ((عليه السلام).) would say, "Allah made our Shi‘a to make a covenant to acknowledge our Wilaya (Leadership with Divine Authority) when they were small particles. It was the day when He made all particles to make a covenant to acknowledge Him as the Lord and Muhammad (s.a) as the Prophet. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, presented to Muhammad his ’Umma (followers) in clay and they were shadows. He created them from the clay out of which Adam was created. Allah created the spirits of our Shi‘a two thousand years before their bodies were created. He presented them to the Holy Prophet (s.a) and the Messenger of Allah recognized them. Ali ((عليه السلام).) recognized and we recognize them by their accent."

https://discovershiaislam.blogspot.com/2012/01/existence-of-ahlulbaytas-before-adamas.html?m=1

My father - Allah have mercy on Him - said: Sa`d b. `Abdullah narrated to us, he said: Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa narrated to us, from Hasan b. Sa`eed, from Fudalah b. Ayyub, from Abban b. `Uthman, from Muhammad b. Muslim, who said: I heard Aba `Abdillah (al-Sadiq) [a] say: Indeed Allah, Mighty and Exalted, created certain creatures from His light, and a mercy from His mercy for the sake of His Mercy. For these are the eye of Allah that sees, and His ear that hears, and His tongue that speaks to His creation by His permission, and the safeguards over what has descended from (His) justifications and wanrnings and proofs. And through them He wards off grievances, and through them He sends down mercy, and through them He enlivens the dead, and causes to die the living. And through them He afflicts His creation (with tribulations), and through them He judges cases among His creation.

I asked: May I be your ransom - Who are these?

He [a] replied: Al-Awsiyaa (the vice-regents).

https://discovershiaislam.blogspot.com/2012/01/existence-of-ahlulbaytas-before-adamas.html?m=1

The second assertion is even worse than the first, as you claim the Imams (عليه السلام) did not perform miracles. I suggest you be careful of what you say, lest you attribute a lie to an Imam (عليه السلام) without sufficient knowledge. Here is a great (and long) list of authentic hadiths mentioning the miracles of the Imams (as):

https://discovershiaislam.blogspot.com/2012/06/miracles-of-masomeenas.html?m=1

Bismillah,

Salam,

While there is no doubt, Aqeedah is a matter that concerns an individual and their Lord, and nobody can perform blind following, what i have stated regarding Shaykh at-Tusi is not blind following.

Rather, Shaykh at-Tusi received the honorific title of 'Leader of the sect'. He can not be regarded as ignorant of ahadith in favour of the idea that the Imams are greater than Prophets, given he authored two major canonical works, an entire book of Tafseer, as well as countless other books and even alludes to the fact he is aware of ahadith both for and against the idea of Imams being greater than Prophets.

Therefore if anyone today were to claim you are a disbeliever if you do not affirm that Imams are greater than Prophets, and that this is part of the Dhurriyat of the Madhab, then they would have to concede that the scholar they regard as the leader of their sect, as a Kuffar and currently being tortured or punished.

<>

If someone tries to argue that , and i preempted this, the scholars overlook previous scholars and say perhaps they were unaware, such a statement can never apply to Shaykh Tusi, who has explicitly stated he is aware of the entire corpus of traditions both for and against. Furthermore, we know from the works of Shaykh at-Tusi he combed the ahadith corpus extensively.

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Therefore, i am not arguing that one should perform Tawaqquf and remain silent on the issue of whether the Imams are greater than the Prophets and refer it to Allah because this is what Shaykh Tusi has done, but rather, given a scholar of this caliber has said it is permissible to do this and he himself held this view, it is therefore absolutely fair and acceptable for this to be a position that one might say is batil, but nobody has the right to claim it takes you outside the fold of Islam. Shaykh at Tusi and other major scholars would hardly reject a belief for which there is Qati, certain evidence, or muttawatir evidence, Dhanni evidence which Shaykh Tusi here states, can not be used to form certainty and yaqeen, and given the corpus contradicts, one can not use their own Aql to form a conclusion.

I don't believe Imams are greater than Prophets. I believe each group have their own Fadhai'l and i leave to Allah on how best to judge, for he is the best of judges and there is no clear daleel for this , nor clear statement that is authentically attributed to the Aimmah that serveds as 'Qati evidence - which is the exact conclusion Shaykh at-Tusi has reached.

<>

All i want is a single statement from any of the Aimmah for which they say - we are superior than all Ambiya and it is Kufr to deny this. Dhanni evidence is not sufficient - it is speculative derivation, not strong, muttawatir and established. 

<>

And Allah knows best.  

To me, claiming the Quran is distorted , i'd argue is very close to Kufr if not Kufr but i leave this matter to Allah and i do not follow those who are severely deviant and hold this belief. 

<>

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by In Gods Name

[In Gods Name]

57 minutes ago, Inspector said:

 Should I quote the book Wilayat al-Takwiniyyah of Ayatullah Kamal al-Haydari?  Even he believes that Imams are greater in station than rest of the Prophets (peace be upon them all), except Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

You know more than Kamal al-Haydari? No, Kamal al-Haydari must be a liar, deviant, misguided person lol. 

 

Someone that believes the Quran is distorted, is a deviant and misguided. If they include narrations in their books, they are including lies. They might not be liars i.e. Kulayni was a truthful , but misguided person.

Sayed Kamal Hayderi having an opinion on Imams and Prophets is his own view - this is not the same as denying the preservation of the Quran which the majority of Muslims consider if clear cut Kufr.

Shaykh at-Tusi, a scholar greater than Kamal al-Hayderi (which scholars of our own sect have placed under house arrest and denounced) had another view, that there is no clear cut ahadith to support any particular view, and to leave the matter to Allah, which i do. It is the safest view to say, each group has its merits, and Allah knows best. 

[Inspector]

4 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Sayed Kamal Hayderi having an opinion on Imams and Prophets is his own view - this is not the same as denying the preservation of the Quran which the majority of Muslims consider if clear cut Kufr.

lol, changing the goal post! 

From where the tehreef came here, lol

3 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

No Shia should be bullied to believe Imams are greater than Prophets.

 

[In Gods Name]

1 hour ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

1 hour ago, Inspector said:

 Should I quote the book Wilayat al-Takwiniyyah of Ayatullah Kamal al-Haydari?  Even he believes that Imams are greater in station than rest of the Prophets (peace be upon them all), except Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

You know more than Kamal al-Haydari? No, Kamal al-Haydari must be a liar, deviant, misguided person lol. 

 

.

I take the view of Ayatollah al-Udma, As-Sayyed Muhammed Hussain Fadallah, Rahimahullah , in that the entire Quran is against Wilayat-Takwiniyah.

By Allah, only Allah controls all of the atoms of the universe. The Prophet, nor his family, nor any other Prophet of God or their family, could at will make whatever they wanted to appear, appear, dissapear.

Even miracles of Allah, as per Shaykh Tusi, were the Ambiya praying, and Allah then granting i.e. Jesus raising the dead.

Or they were restricted i.e. like Nabi Sulayman. 

[In Gods Name]

2 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from ibn al-Ri’ab from Bukayr ibn ‘A‘yan who has said the following. "Abu Ja‘far ((عليه السلام).) would say, "Allah made our Shi‘a to make a covenant to acknowledge our Wilaya (Leadership with Divine Authority) when they were small particles. It was the day when He made all particles to make a covenant to acknowledge Him as the Lord and Muhammad (s.a) as the Prophet. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, presented to Muhammad his ’Umma (followers) in clay and they were shadows. He created them from the clay out of which Adam was created. Allah created the spirits of our Shi‘a two thousand years before their bodies were created. He presented them to the Holy Prophet (s.a) and the Messenger of Allah recognized them. Ali ((عليه السلام).) recognized and we recognize them by their accent."

 

Bismillah,

Salam,

I will go through these one by one, inshaAllah. Let us start with this one for today.

1. This singular narration is not Q'ati evidence.  You have to do a lot of derivation to get to the conclusion Imams are superior to the Prophets. 

2. Secondly, while Ibn Mahbub is definitely a Thiqa narrator in Shia Rijal, there are many instances where he simply could not have heard from the person he was narrating from. Now, this point, even if you refute it, it point one is the most important and stands. 

Ibn Mahbub has been accused of narrating many Marasil and odd narrations. 

1. Ibn Mahbub narrates many odd ahadith, is one of the narrators of the Hadith of the earth being on the back of a giant Whale. The chain is Saheeh, but many scholars (such as Shaykh al-Mufid) rejected it despite it having a Saheeh Sanad. You can read about it here. 

2. Ibn Mahbub, as brother cake has shown, could not have heard from Malik b. Attiyah in another bizzare narration about why climates exist because of Venus and Mars. He also states that Ibn Mahbub has been accused of narrating many marasil from Abi Hamza ath-Thamali, "and there are other narrators from whom he reported who it is very unlikely he heard directly from, such as Abu al-Jarud." You can read the post here.

3. Brother Nader Zaveri has also demonstrated in another hadith here that Ibn Mahbub again conceals the intermediary source between him and yet another narrator , namely  Muqaatil bin Sulaymaan. You can read the article here.

There is therefore a need in every ahadith where we find Ibn Mahbub, to investigate whether the chain could in fact, be Mursal. 

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Furthermore, here are some other ahadith from Ibn Mahboub through Ali b. Ra'ib:

 

Dieting does not benefit the sick person after seven days (scientifically incorrect - but of course now linguistic/mental gymnastics will be used to work around it)

 

عَنْهُ عَنْ أَحْمَدَ عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ ابْنِ رِئَابٍ عَنِ الْحَلَبِيِّ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اللَّهِ (عليه السلام) يَقُولُ لَا تَنْفَعُ الْحِمْيَةُ لِمَرِيضٍ بَعْدَ سَبْعَةِ أَيَّامٍ.

442. From him, from Ahmad, from Ibn Mahboub, from Ibn Ra’ib, from Halby who said: I heard Abu Abdullah (asws) saying: ‘Dieting is not beneficial to the sick after seven days’.

- https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/8/1/442/1

The Quran has a distorted word change

سَهْلُ بْنُ زِيَادٍ عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنِ ابْنِ رِئَابٍ عَنْ حُمْرَانَ بْنِ أَعْيَنَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ (عليه السلام) وَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا أَوْلِيَاؤُهُمُ الطَّوَاغِيتُ.

436. Sahl Bin Ziyad, from Ibn Mahboub, from Ibn Ra’ab, from Humraan Bin Ayn, who has narrated the following: Abu Ja’far (asws) said (referring to the ‘Tahreef in Quran) in this “[2:257] and (as to) those who disbelieve, their guardians are the tyrants”. ‘الطَّوَاغِيتُ’ instead of ‘الطَّاغُوتُ’ (which is in Quran we have these days).

- https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/8/1/436/1

 

Winds are due to angels flapping their wings (another scientific error, but linguistic and mental gymnastics can be used to justify anything with Batni esoterism)

"So if Allah (azwj) Intends the North wind to blow, He (azwj) Commands the Angel whose name is the North (Al-Shimaal), so he descends upon the Sacred House (Al-Bayt Al-Haram), stands upon the Al-Shamy corner of it and flaps his wings."

https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/8/1/63/1

Interesting, despite this having a Saheeh Sanad, Behboudi does not include it in his Saheeh al-Kafi - a common theme with Ibn Mahboubs narrations. We can predict the different winds based on science.

 

The daughter of Adam had twenty fingers, and was killed by a lion the size of an elephant

Remembrance was Onaq the daughter of Adam , and the first one who was killed, whom Allah (azwj) Killed was Onaq. And the area that she occupied when seated upon the ground measured one square acre (Jarib) of the land, and she had twenty fingers and on each of her fingers were two nails like two sickles. So Allah (azwj) Mighty and Majestic Made her to be overcome by a lion which was like an elephant..."

https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/8/1/23/1

This enormous hadith again, despite having a Saheeh sanad, is not included in Behboudi's Saheeh al-Kafi.  I have only quoted part of this narration which many scholars would probably consider Khurafat. 

 

Given many scholars have thrown out ahadith by Ibn Mahbub with Saheeh chains , such as Shaykh al Mufid and the story of the earth being on the back of a whale, in addition to many scholars rejecting or not adding chains which claim the wind is because of angels flapping their wings, or that Adams daughter had twenty fingers and was killed by an elephant sized lion, one can not merely base Aqeedah issues on the word of Ibn Mahbub, unless they can prove it is plausible he heard it from who he claimed to have heard it from. Even then, the question remains that a number of his narrations with authentic chains have been regarded as Khurafat. 

Therefore i hardly think one can obtain Yaqeen from a hadith only Ibn Mahbub narrates. He himself is Thiqah, but due to the sheer number of narrations he narrates, for many, many people he claims to have heard directly from we know in many cases it would prove impossible, and he has been accused of Tadlees numerous times. Furthermore, many scholars from al-Mufid to Behboudi have not authenticated narrations because of the Matn - and have classed narrations with Saheeh chains as Khurafat. 

Edited November 12, 2023 by In Gods Name

[In Gods Name]

4 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

 

And from the website you brought:

 

6 - علي بن محمد، عن سهل بن زياد، عن موسى بن القاسم بن معاوية، ومحمد بن يحيى، عن العمركي بن علي جميعا، عن علي بن جعفر، عن أبي الحسن موسى عليه السلام قال: قال أبوعبدالله عليه السلام: إن الله عزوجل خلقنا فأحسن خلقنا، وصورنا فأحسن صورنا(3)، وجعلنا خزانه في سمائه وأرضه، ولنا نطقت الشجرة وبعبادتنا عبد الله عزوجل(4)، ولولانا ما عبدالله.

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Musa ibn al-Qasim ibn Mu‘awiya and Muhammad ibn Yahya from al-‘Amrakiy ibn Ali altogether from Ali ibn Ja'far from abu al-Hassan Musa ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following. "Imam abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) has said, ‘Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, created us and He made our creation the best. He formed us and made our the best. He made us the treasurers of in His heavens and His earth. For us the tree spoke and with our worship Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, is worshiped. Had we not been in existence Allah would have been worshipped."

<>

Sahl ibn Ziyad in this chain is the weak link.

Although Majlisi took his Ahadith, he has been weakened by Ghada'iri, Shaykh Saduq, and Sayed Khui'.

And this is what Ghada'iri had to say about him:

63 - سهل بن زياد، أبو سعيد، الآدمي، الرازي. كان ضعيفا في الحديث، غير معتمد فيه، وكان أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى يشهد عليه بالغلو والكذب، وأخرجه من قم إلى الري، وكان يسكنها. وقد كاتب أبا محمد العسكري (عليه السلام) على يد محمد بن عبد الحميد العطار، للنصف من شهر ربيع الآخر سنة خمس وخمسين ومئتين. 

63 – Sahl b. Ziyād, Abū Saʿīd al-Ādamī, al-Rāzī.  He was weak in ḥadīth, not relied upon in it.  Aḥmad b. Muḥammad b. ʿĪsā attested to ghulw and lying against him, and exiled him from Qum to Rayy, and he used to reside in it.  He had corresponded with Abū Muḥammad al-ʿAskarī upon the hand of Muḥammad b. ʿAbd al-Ḥamīd al-ʿAṭṭār, for the middle of Rabīʿ al-Ākhir in the year 255.

- https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/17/24/63/1

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 by In Gods Name

[In Gods Name]

Bismillah,

Salam,

I pray this meets you in good health.

In Summary, from  the website you cited , you quoted four traditions of all of them which you felt were authentic. This dear brother, was your strongest proof:

6 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

Ali b. Muhammad from Sahl b. Ziyad from Musa b. al-Qasim b. Mu`awiya and Muhammad b. Yahya from al-`Amraki b. `Ali together from `Ali b. Ja`far from Abu’l Hasan Musa عليه السلام.

He said: Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام said: Allah عز وجل created us and He made our creation the best. He formed us and made our form the best. He made us the treasuries of His heaven and His Earth. For us the tree spoke, and with our worship Allah عز وجل is worshiped – if it were not for us, Allah would not be worshiped. (al-Kafi, Volume 1, hadith 505)

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235036328-mutabar-al-kafi-volume-1/

 

This is Dhai'f on serious grounds.

Although Majlisi took his Ahadith, he has been weakened by Ghada'iri, Shaykh Saduq, and Sayed Khui'.

And this is what Ghada'iri had to say about him:

63 - سهل بن زياد، أبو سعيد، الآدمي، الرازي. كان ضعيفا في الحديث، غير معتمد فيه، وكان أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى يشهد عليه بالغلو والكذب، وأخرجه من قم إلى الري، وكان يسكنها. وقد كاتب أبا محمد العسكري (عليه السلام) على يد محمد بن عبد الحميد العطار، للنصف من شهر ربيع الآخر سنة خمس وخمسين ومئتين. 

63 – Sahl b. Ziyād, Abū Saʿīd al-Ādamī, al-Rāzī.  He was weak in ḥadīth, not relied upon in it.  Aḥmad b. Muḥammad b. ʿĪsā attested to ghulw and lying against him, and exiled him from Qum to Rayy, and he used to reside in it.  He had corresponded with Abū Muḥammad al-ʿAskarī upon the hand of Muḥammad b. ʿAbd al-Ḥamīd al-ʿAṭṭār, for the middle of Rabīʿ al-Ākhir in the year 255.

- https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/17/24/63/1

 

6 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from ibn al-Ri’ab from Bukayr ibn ‘A‘yan who has said the following. "Abu Ja‘far ((عليه السلام).) would say, "Allah made our Shi‘a to make a covenant to acknowledge our Wilaya (Leadership with Divine Authority) when they were small particles. It was the day when He made all particles to make a covenant to acknowledge Him as the Lord and Muhammad (s.a) as the Prophet. Allah, the Most Majestic, the Most gracious, presented to Muhammad his ’Umma (followers) in clay and they were shadows. He created them from the clay out of which Adam was created. Allah created the spirits of our Shi‘a two thousand years before their bodies were created. He presented them to the Holy Prophet (s.a) and the Messenger of Allah recognized them. Ali ((عليه السلام).) recognized and we recognize them by their accent."

 

This has nothing to do with Imams being greater than Prophets. To get to that conclusion requires a lot of derivation and speculation. This could merely be emphasizing on the Ummah of Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the followers of the Ahlulbayt. Furthermore, this is quite a Gharib hadith , and it has been shown that, despite ibn Mahbub being Thiqah, he has narrated ahadith through similar chains claiming:

1. The earth is on the back of a whale

2. The daughter of Adam had 20 fingers and was killing by a lion the size of an elephant

3. Angels cause nothern/southern/westerly winds by flapping their wings

4. Mars and Venus are the cause of changes of seasons.

Even if there's no Tadlees here, while Ibn Mahbub is Thiqah, he is often careless about explicitly telling us who he obtained his narrations from. I showed how he has in many cases, performed Tadlees. This puts a big question mark when he narrates a solitary fanciful narration, which he has a reputation of doing, whether it truly can be one you even have confidence of the connection of chain. Put aside the number of Khurafat coming from him, 

Anyway, this isn't important, the Hadith doesn't prove anything & Khabar al-Wahid do not have probative forces according to many scholars, let alone when dealing with Aqeedah. You're rolling a dice relying on this only, and it requires your speculation and derivation on top.

 

6 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

From Abd Allah bin Sinan from Abi Abd Allah (عليه السلام) said: “Adam (عليه السلام)said: ‘O Lord, by the right of Muhammad, Ali, Fatimah, al-Hasan, and al-Hussain, forgive me.’ So Allah revealed to him (عليه السلام): ‘O Adam, and what do you know about Muhammad?’ So he (عليه السلام) said: ‘When I was created, I raise my head and I saw on the arsh (throne) written – Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah, Ali Amir al-Muminin’”

 

Now help me out here - but it appears this is taken from Qisas al-Anbiya by al-Rawandi who died 573 after Hijrah. Works in this era are going to be extremely unreliable, because the chain of narrators to the Imams are going to be excessively long.

 

القطب الراوندي في قصص الانبياء: باسناده إلى الصدوق، عن ابيه، عن سعد بن عبد الله عن أحمد، بن محمد عن الحسن بن علي الخزاز، عن عبد الله بن سنان، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام

Now, according to his chain of narrators he states:

 باسناده إلى الصدوق،

However, between him and Shaykh Saduq who died 380 AH was a gap of well over 200 years. He doesn't give any chain to Shaykh as Saduq. This is therefore Mursal, disconnected and Dhai'f  (weak).  He has raised this hadith by well over 200 years , and i am struggling to find this hadith actually found in any of the works of Shaykh as -Saduq, which greatly raises doubt.

We find similar weak ahadith Nader Zaveri covers here in al Ihtijaj. 

6 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

My father - Allah have mercy on Him - said: Sa`d b. `Abdullah narrated to us, he said: Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa narrated to us, from Hasan b. Sa`eed, from Fudalah b. Ayyub, from Abban b. `Uthman, from Muhammad b. Muslim, who said: I heard Aba `Abdillah (al-Sadiq) [a] say: Indeed Allah, Mighty and Exalted, created certain creatures from His light, and a mercy from His mercy for the sake of His Mercy. For these are the eye of Allah that sees, and His ear that hears, and His tongue that speaks to His creation by His permission, and the safeguards over what has descended from (His) justifications and wanrnings and proofs. And through them He wards off grievances, and through them He sends down mercy, and through them He enlivens the dead, and causes to die the living. And through them He afflicts His creation (with tribulations), and through them He judges cases among His creation.

I asked: May I be your ransom - Who are these?

He [a] replied: Al-Awsiyaa (the vice-regents).

https://discovershiaislam.blogspot.com/2012/01/existence-of-ahlulbaytas-before-adamas.html?m=1

This Hadith likely has a strong chain , but i need to absolutely be sure. But if we assume this is indeed authentic, and i can't seem to see weak narrators, it is not anythng exclusive to the Imams. But it doesn't prove Imams are superior to Prophets, and whatever is mentioned here can even be applied to Muslims, and it can certainly be applied to Prophets. How do we know this? Well, if the Hadith only applied to the Imams, and we were to take it literally, it would exclude the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Furthermore, the Hadith clearly is allegorical, emphasising the high status of those close to Allah.

We find in a Saheeh Hadith al-Qudsi in al-Kafi:

8ـ عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ خَالِدٍ عَنْ إِسْمَاعِيلَ بْنِ مِهْرَانَ عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْقَمَّاطِ عَنْ أَبَانِ بْنِ تَغْلِبَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ (عَلَيهِ السَّلام) قَالَ لَمَّا أُسْرِيَ بِالنَّبِيِّ (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وآلِه) قَالَ يَا رَبِّ مَا حَالُ الْمُؤْمِنِ عِنْدَكَ قَالَ يَا مُحَمَّدُ مَنْ أَهَانَ لِي وَلِيّاً فَقَدْ بَارَزَنِي بِالْمُحَارَبَةِ وَأَنَا أَسْرَعُ شَيْ‏ءٍ إِلَى نُصْرَةِ أَوْلِيَائِي وَمَا تَرَدَّدْتُ عَنْ شَيْ‏ءٍ أَنَا فَاعِلُهُ كَتَرَدُّدِي عَنْ وَفَاةِ الْمُؤْمِنِ يَكْرَهُ الْمَوْتَ وَأَكْرَهُ مَسَاءَتَهُ وَإِنَّ مِنْ عِبَادِيَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ مَنْ لا يُصْلِحُهُ إِلا الْغِنَى وَلَوْ صَرَفْتُهُ إِلَى غَيْرِ ذَلِكَ لَهَلَكَ وَإِنَّ مِنْ عِبَادِيَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ مَنْ لا يُصْلِحُهُ إِلا الْفَقْرُ وَلَوْ صَرَفْتُهُ إِلَى غَيْرِ ذَلِكَ لَهَلَكَ وَمَا يَتَقَرَّبُ إِلَيَّ عَبْدٌ مِنْ عِبَادِي بِشَيْ‏ءٍ أَحَبَّ إِلَيَّ مِمَّا افْتَرَضْتُ عَلَيْهِ وَإِنَّهُ لَيَتَقَرَّبُ إِلَيَّ بِالنَّافِلَةِ حَتَّى أُحِبَّهُ فَإِذَا أَحْبَبْتُهُ كُنْتُ إِذاً سَمْعَهُ الَّذِي يَسْمَعُ بِهِ وَبَصَرَهُ الَّذِي يُبْصِرُ بِهِ وَلِسَانَهُ الَّذِي يَنْطِقُ بِهِ وَيَدَهُ الَّتِي يَبْطِشُ بِهَا إِنْ دَعَانِي أَجَبْتُهُ وَإِنْ سَأَلَنِي أَعْطَيْتُهُ.

8. A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid from Isma’il ibn Mehran from abu Sa’id al-Qammat from Aban ibn Taghlib from abu Ja’far ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following: “When the Holy Prophet was taken to visit the heavens, he asked, ‘O Lord, how is the condition of the believers before you?’ He (Allah) said, ‘O Muhammad, whoever insults any of My friends has declared war against Me. I am the quickest to help My friends. I have not hesitated in any of My acts as much as I do at the time of the death of a believer who dislikes death and I dislike to disappoint him. Of My believing servants there are those who do not perform well without wealth and if I change his condition he is destroyed. Also among My believing servants are those who do not perform well unless they are poor and, if I change their condition to something else, they are destroyed. For seeking nearness to Me there is no better means for My servant than to fulfill what 1 have made obligatory for them and that he should seek nearness to Me through performing optional acts of worship so I will love him. When I will love him I will be his ears with which he will hear, his eyes with which he will see, his tongue with which he will speak and his hands with which he will perform his activities. Whenever he prays I will answer him and, whenever he asks a favor, I will grant him.’” 

- https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/2/1/145/8

and this part:

"And through them He wards off grievances, and through them He sends down mercy, and through them He enlivens the dead, and causes to die the living. And through them He afflicts His creation (with tribulations), and through them He judges cases among His creation."

This is not literal. Allah does not literally tell the Ahlulbayt to create all of life and then does it via them as a route. Rather this is allegorical. Those Allah has chosen, those who are pious from the Ambiya and the Awliya, it is a more poetic, indirect meaning. I.E. Through the ethos of them being Muwahhids and truly obedient slaves of Allah, and out of Allah's love and purpose for mankind to reach that, and through the preaching of Tawheed and Islam.

For example, the Hadith of Salman b. Farsi (Radhiyallahu anhu)

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ صَفْوَانَ بْنِ يَحْيَى عَنْ حَنَانٍ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبِي يَرْوِي عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ (عليه السلام) قَالَ كَانَ سَلْمَانُ جَالِساً مَعَ نَفَرٍ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ فِي الْمَسْجِدِ فَأَقْبَلُوا يَنْتَسِبُونَ وَ يَرْفَعُونَ فِي أَنْسَابِهِمْ حَتَّى بَلَغُوا سَلْمَانَ فَقَالَ لَهُ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ أَخْبِرْنِي مَنْ أَنْتَ وَ مَنْ أَبُوكَ وَ مَا أَصْلُكَ فَقَالَ أَنَا سَلْمَانُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ كُنْتُ ضَالًّا فَهَدَانِي اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ بِمُحَمَّدٍ (صلى الله عليه وآله) وَ كُنْتُ عَائِلًا فَأَغْنَانِي اللَّهُ بِمُحَمَّدٍ (صلى الله عليه وآله) وَ كُنْتُ مَمْلُوكاً فَأَعْتَقَنِي اللَّهُ بِمُحَمَّدٍ (صلى الله عليه وآله) هَذَا نَسَبِي وَ هَذَا حَسَبِي قَالَ فَخَرَجَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله) وَ سَلْمَانُ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ يُكَلِّمُهُمْ فَقَالَ لَهُ سَلْمَانُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ مَا لَقِيتُ مِنْ هَؤُلَاءِ جَلَسْتُ مَعَهُمْ فَأَخَذُوا يَنْتَسِبُونَ وَ يَرْفَعُونَ فِي أَنْسَابِهِمْ حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغُوا إِلَيَّ قَالَ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ مَنْ أَنْتَ وَ مَا أَصْلُكَ وَ مَا حَسَبُكَ فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ (صلى الله عليه وآله) فَمَا قُلْتَ لَهُ يَا سَلْمَانُ قَالَ قُلْتُ لَهُ أَنَا سَلْمَانُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ كُنْتُ ضَالًّا فَهَدَانِي اللَّهُ عَزَّ ذِكْرُهُ بِمُحَمَّدٍ (صلى الله عليه وآله) وَ كُنْتُ عَائِلًا فَأَغْنَانِي اللَّهُ عَزَّ ذِكْرُهُ بِمُحَمَّدٍ (صلى الله عليه وآله) وَ كُنْتُ مَمْلُوكاً فَأَعْتَقَنِي اللَّهُ عَزَّ ذِكْرُهُ بِمُحَمَّدٍ (صلى الله عليه وآله) هَذَا نَسَبِي وَ هَذَا حَسَبِي فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله) يَا مَعْشَرَ قُرَيْشٍ إِنَّ حَسَبَ الرَّجُلِ دِينُهُ وَ مُرُوءَتَهُ خُلُقُهُ وَ أَصْلَهُ عَقْلُهُ وَ قَالَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ إِنَّا خَلَقْناكُمْ مِنْ ذَكَرٍ وَ أُنْثى وَ جَعَلْناكُمْ شُعُوباً وَ قَبائِلَ لِتَعارَفُوا إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ أَتْقاكُمْ ثُمَّ قَالَ النَّبِيُّ (صلى الله عليه وآله) لِسَلْمَانَ لَيْسَ لِأَحَدٍ مِنْ هَؤُلَاءِ عَلَيْكَ فَضْلٌ إِلَّا بِتَقْوَى اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ وَ إِنْ كَانَ التَّقْوَى لَكَ عَلَيْهِمْ فَأَنْتَ أَفْضَلُ.

203. Ali b. Ibrahim [narrated] from Abdullah b. Muhammad b. Isa from Safwan b. Yahya from Hanan who said: I heard my father narrated from Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) having said: ‘Salman (رضي الله عنه) was seated with a number of people from Quraysh in a Mosque. They started priding over their lineages and ancestry until they reached Salman (رضي الله عنه). Umar b. al-Khattab said to him, ‘Inform me who you are, and who your father is, and what your origin is’.  So he said: ‘I am Salman, son of a servant of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). I had strayed but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) had guided me through Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and I was needy so Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) enriched through Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and I was owned [as a slave] so Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) freed me through Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). This is my lineage, and this is my nobility’.  So Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) [came out and] said: 'O group of Quraysh, the nobility of a man is his Religion, and his chivalry is his manners, and his origin is his intellect, and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said: O mankind! Indeed, We created you from a male and a female, and made you nations and tribes that you may identify yourselves with one another.' {49:13}. Then the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said to Salman, ‘There is no virtue over you from any of these ones except by taqwa (i.e., fear of Allah), and if there is piety in you [superior] to them, then you are more virtous [than them].'

- https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/8/1/203/1

 

Even Amirul Mumineen would ask through those whom Allah loves or has favoured (The Prophet, other Ambiyah etc):

1ـ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ الله الْبَرْقِيِّ عَنْ عِيسَى بْنِ عَبْدِ الله الْقُمِّيِّ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيهِ السَّلام) قَالَ كَانَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وآلِه) يَقُولُ إِذَا فَرَغَ مِنَ الزَّوَالِ اللهمَّ إِنِّي أَتَقَرَّبُ إِلَيْكَ بِجُودِكَ وَكَرَمِكَ وَأَتَقَرَّبُ إِلَيْكَ بِمُحَمَّدٍ عَبْدِكَ وَرَسُولِكَ وَأَتَقَرَّبُ إِلَيْكَ بِمَلائِكَتِكَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ وَأَنْبِيَائِكَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ وَبِكَ اللهمَّ أَنْتَ الْغَنِيُّ عَنِّي وَبِيَ الْفَاقَةُ إِلَيْكَ أَنْتَ الْغَنِيُّ وَأَنَا الْفَقِيرُ إِلَيْكَ أَقَلْتَنِي عَثْرَتِي وَسَتَرْتَ عَلَيَّ ذُنُوبِي فَاقْضِ لِيَ الْيَوْمَ حَاجَتِي وَلا تُعَذِّبْنِي بِقَبِيحِ مَا تَعْلَمُ مِنِّي بَلْ عَفْوُكَ وَجُودُكَ يَسَعُنِي قَالَ ثُمَّ يَخِرُّ سَاجِداً وَيَقُولُ يَا أَهْلَ التَّقْوَى وَيَا أَهْلَ الْمَغْفِرَةِ يَا بَرُّ يَا رَحِيمُ أَنْتَ أَبَرُّ بِي مِنْ أَبِي وَأُمِّي وَمِنْ جَمِيعِ الْخَلائِقِ اقْبَلْنِي بِقَضَاءِ حَاجَتِي مُجَاباً دُعَائِي مَرْحُوماً صَوْتِي قَدْ كَشَفْتَ أَنْوَاعَ الْبَلايَا عَنِّي.

1. Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from abu ‘Abd Allah al-Barqi from ‘Isa ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Qummi from Abu ‘Abdillah ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following: “Amir al-Mu’minin, Ali ibn abu Talib ((عليه السلام).) after completing the prayer at noon time would say, ‘O Lord, I seek nearness to You through Your generosity and magnanimity, I seek nearness to You through Muhammad, Your servant, and Your messenger, I seek nearness to You through Your favorite angels. Your messenger prophets and Your Own Self. O Lord, You are Self-sufficient and do not need me and I need You. You are wealthy and I am poor, correct my slips (mistakes) and cover up my sins, provide me help this day, do not punish me for the evil that You know of me, but pardon me and Your munificence may encompass me.’ The Imam said, ‘Then he would prostrate and say, “O You Who deserves people’s observing piety before Him, O You Who grants forgiveness, O Virtuous, and O Merciful, You are more kind to me than my father and mother and all the creatures, accept my plea in providing me help, answering my supplication and prayer, grant me favor for my call while You have already removed so many misfortunes from me.’” 

- https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/2/2/52/1

 

Thus, even if we were to accept this Khabar al-Wahid, it can be intepreted allegorically, because the entire tone of the Ahadith is allegorical and not restricted to only the Ahllubayt, but applied to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and also applied to the Ambiya before them.  Similar to Allah creating us out of love of Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is allegorical - it is to worship him and Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) represents the pinnacle of worship. 

Nevertheless, one authentic Khabar al-Wahid if you want to take it literally when it clearly is allegorical is not probative. 

 

SubhanAllah, it appears Shaykh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) was correct. There's no conclusive proof for such a position. If this is the strongest evidence you've brought. 

Edited November 12, 2023 by In Gods Name

[In Gods Name]

6 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

 

The second assertion is even worse than the first, as you claim the Imams (عليه السلام) did not perform miracles. I suggest you be careful of what you say, lest you attribute a lie to an Imam (عليه السلام) without sufficient knowledge. Here is a great (and long) list of authentic hadiths mentioning the miracles of the Imams (as):

https://discovershiaislam.blogspot.com/2012/06/miracles-of-masomeenas.html?m=1

Now we've dealt with the alleged evidence of the superiority of the Aimmah over the Prophets, something i join Shaykh-at Tusi (رضي الله عنه) in doing by performing Tawaqquf and leaving the real knowledge of the matter to Allah whilst absolutely confirming the Aimmah are not Prophets nor do they have the special characteristics which only Prophets can have , and i leave this to Allah, with full belief he has sealed Prophethood, and revelation, and none after Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) can change halal or harram. 

Let us discuss the miracles.

[In Gods Name]

Allegedly, the Imams, who were meant to be observing Taqqiyah, out of a picture of a lion, made a grown adult male lion jump out of the tapestry or painted picture.

1- حدثنا محمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد رضي اللهعنه قال حدثنا محمد بن

الحسن الصفار و سعد بن عبدالله جميعا عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى عن الحسن بن علي بن يقطين عن أخيه الحسين عنأبيه علي بن يقطين قال استدعى الرشيد رجلا يبطل به أمر أبي الحسن موسى بن جعفر ( ع ) ويقطعه و يخجله في المسجد فانتدب له رجل معزم فلما أحضرت المائدة عمل ناموسا علىالخبز فكان كلما رام أبو الحسن ( ع ) تناول رغيف من الخبز طار من بين يديه و استفز منهارون الفرح و الضحك لذلك فلم يلبث أبو الحسن ( ع ) أن رفع رأسه إلى أسد مصور على بعضالستور فقال له يا أسد خذ عدو الله قال فوثبت تلك الصورة كأعظم ما يكون من السباعفافترست ذلك المعزم فخر هارون و ندماؤه على وجوههم مغشيا عليهم فطارت عقولهم خوفامن هول ما رأوه فلما أفاقوا من ذلك قال هارون لأبي الحسن ( ع ) سألتك بحقي عليك لماسألت الصورة أن ترد الرجل فقال إن كانت عصا موسى ردت ما ابتلعته من حبال القوم وعصيهم فأن هذه الصورة ترد ما ابتلعته من هذا الرجل فكان ذلك أعمل الأشياء في إفاتةنفسه

 

Muhammad ibn Al-Hassan ibn Ahmad ibn al-Waleed – may God be pleased with him – narrated that Muhammad ibn Al-Hassan al-Saffar and Sa’d ibn Abdullah quoted on the authority of Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Isa, on the authority of Al-Hassan ibn Ali ibn Yaqteen, on the authority of his brother Al-Hussein, on the authority of his father Ali ibn Yaqteen,who said:

“Harun Ar-Rashid was looking for someone who could make fun of Abil Hassan Musa ibn Ja’far (s), belittle him and defeat him in arguments in a meeting. A magician volunteered to do so. When they spread the table to eat, the magician put a spell on the bread so that whenever Abul Hassan wanted to grab a piece of bread to eat, it would fly away from his hands. Harun was very pleased and laughed a lot at this. Then Abul Hassan turned to the picture of a lion which was on a portrait and said, “O Lion! Seize this enemy of God!” The narrator of the tradition added, “Then the picture of the lion turned into a big lion, jumped on the magician, and tore him up.”

Then Harun and all his companions who were present were watching got scared, fainted and fell down. When they regained consciousness, Harun told Abil Hassan (s), “I beg you by the right I have over you to ask the picture to return that man.” Then the Imam (s) said, “If the Cane of Moses (s) returned the canes and the ropes which it swallowed, this picture will also return that man.” The narrator of this tradition added, “This was one of the most important reasons why the Imam (s) was martyred.”

Source:Uyoon Akhbar ar-Reza by Shiekh Sadooq,Vol 1,Pg 95,Ch 8,H 1

 

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What these narrations would have you believe:

1. Imam Ridha completely abandoned Taqqiyah in the courts of Harun Rashid. This itself is enough to cast major, major doubt on the authenticity of this, for Imam Ridha to be performing massive feats of miracles, when not even Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) would be going about performing these sorts of miracles.

2. A magician allegedly came and made bread jump and dance around every time the Imam had it in its hands by a magic spell. Imagine - what sort of spell was this? La Hawla wa La Quwata ila Billah, flying bewitched bread?

3. The picture apparently turned into a lion, then the lion tore the man up like a piece of Paper, and the Caliph, Harun al Rashid allegedly then begged the man to ask the lion to turn the ripped up man and patch him back together again.

SubhanAllah, this would have been the talk of the town, and spread far and wide. Furthermore, it would be Taqqiyah mode completely unravelled in front of the highest ruling authorities including the Caliph, Harun ar Rashid. 

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I will return to analyse this insha Allah. But this goes against Aql, and the noble Quran, and history.

Edited November 12, 2023 by In Gods Name

[Ibn Tayyar]

9 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Bismillah,

Salam,

While there is no doubt, Aqeedah is a matter that concerns an individual and their Lord, and nobody can perform blind following, what i have stated regarding Shaykh at-Tusi is not blind following.

Rather, Shaykh at-Tusi received the honorific title of 'Leader of the sect'. He can not be regarded as ignorant of ahadith in favour of the idea that the Imams are greater than Prophets, given he authored two major canonical works, an entire book of Tafseer, as well as countless other books and even alludes to the fact he is aware of ahadith both for and against the idea of Imams being greater than Prophets.

Therefore if anyone today were to claim you are a disbeliever if you do not affirm that Imams are greater than Prophets, and that this is part of the Dhurriyat of the Madhab, then they would have to concede that the scholar they regard as the leader of their sect, as a Kuffar and currently being tortured or punished.

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If someone tries to argue that , and i preempted this, the scholars overlook previous scholars and say perhaps they were unaware, such a statement can never apply to Shaykh Tusi, who has explicitly stated he is aware of the entire corpus of traditions both for and against. Furthermore, we know from the works of Shaykh at-Tusi he combed the ahadith corpus extensively.

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Therefore, i am not arguing that one should perform Tawaqquf and remain silent on the issue of whether the Imams are greater than the Prophets and refer it to Allah because this is what Shaykh Tusi has done, but rather, given a scholar of this caliber has said it is permissible to do this and he himself held this view, it is therefore absolutely fair and acceptable for this to be a position that one might say is batil, but nobody has the right to claim it takes you outside the fold of Islam. Shaykh at Tusi and other major scholars would hardly reject a belief for which there is Qati, certain evidence, or muttawatir evidence, Dhanni evidence which Shaykh Tusi here states, can not be used to form certainty and yaqeen, and given the corpus contradicts, one can not use their own Aql to form a conclusion.

I don't believe Imams are greater than Prophets. I believe each group have their own Fadhai'l and i leave to Allah on how best to judge, for he is the best of judges and there is no clear daleel for this , nor clear statement that is authentically attributed to the Aimmah that serveds as 'Qati evidence - which is the exact conclusion Shaykh at-Tusi has reached.

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All i want is a single statement from any of the Aimmah for which they say - we are superior than all Ambiya and it is Kufr to deny this. Dhanni evidence is not sufficient - it is speculative derivation, not strong, muttawatir and established. 

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And Allah knows best.  

To me, claiming the Quran is distorted , i'd argue is very close to Kufr if not Kufr but i leave this matter to Allah and i do not follow those who are severely deviant and hold this belief. 

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The views of Shaykh Al-Tusi are no less important than the views of the companions of the Imams (عليه السلام) themselves, who can be said to have held incredibly incorrect beliefs. In fact the only reason why Al-Tusi (rah) was mutawaqif in this mas'ala was because companions themselves differed on this i.e there was no consensus.

At the same time, Shaykh Al-Saduq (rah) whose opinion is no less important than Al-Tusi (rah) claimed that it is wajib to believe the Imams (عليه السلام) are greater.

All this tells you is that people differed on matters they themselves believed are essential beliefs.

It can probably be said that the qudama probably differed upon matters of usool itself, and what one considered wajib to believe may have been considered kufr or deviance in the eyes of someone else.

7 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

And from the website you brought:

 

6 - علي بن محمد، عن سهل بن زياد، عن موسى بن القاسم بن معاوية، ومحمد بن يحيى، عن العمركي بن علي جميعا، عن علي بن جعفر، عن أبي الحسن موسى عليه السلام قال: قال أبوعبدالله عليه السلام: إن الله عزوجل خلقنا فأحسن خلقنا، وصورنا فأحسن صورنا(3)، وجعلنا خزانه في سمائه وأرضه، ولنا نطقت الشجرة وبعبادتنا عبد الله عزوجل(4)، ولولانا ما عبدالله.

Ali ibn Muhammad has narrated from Sahl ibn Ziyad from Musa ibn al-Qasim ibn Mu‘awiya and Muhammad ibn Yahya from al-‘Amrakiy ibn Ali altogether from Ali ibn Ja'far from abu al-Hassan Musa ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following. "Imam abu ‘Abdallah ((عليه السلام).) has said, ‘Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, created us and He made our creation the best. He formed us and made our the best. He made us the treasurers of in His heavens and His earth. For us the tree spoke and with our worship Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, is worshiped. Had we not been in existence Allah would have been worshipped."

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Sahl ibn Ziyad in this chain is the weak link.

Although Majlisi took his Ahadith, he has been weakened by Ghada'iri, Shaykh Saduq, and Sayed Khui'.

And this is what Ghada'iri had to say about him:

63 - سهل بن زياد، أبو سعيد، الآدمي، الرازي. كان ضعيفا في الحديث، غير معتمد فيه، وكان أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى يشهد عليه بالغلو والكذب، وأخرجه من قم إلى الري، وكان يسكنها. وقد كاتب أبا محمد العسكري (عليه السلام) على يد محمد بن عبد الحميد العطار، للنصف من شهر ربيع الآخر سنة خمس وخمسين ومئتين. 

63 – Sahl b. Ziyād, Abū Saʿīd al-Ādamī, al-Rāzī.  He was weak in ḥadīth, not relied upon in it.  Aḥmad b. Muḥammad b. ʿĪsā attested to ghulw and lying against him, and exiled him from Qum to Rayy, and he used to reside in it.  He had corresponded with Abū Muḥammad al-ʿAskarī upon the hand of Muḥammad b. ʿAbd al-Ḥamīd al-ʿAṭṭār, for the middle of Rabīʿ al-Ākhir in the year 255.

- https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/17/24/63/1

 

 

 

Sahl ibn Ziyad is differed upon and there are those who viewed him as thiqa. I'm not sure where you found that Al-Saduq weakened him, in fact Al-Saduq relied upon him alot and that is one of the arguments made in favour of his tawtheeq by those who saw him as thiqa.

It is fair to say he is differed upon.

5 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Bismillah,

Salam,

I pray this meets you in good health.

In Summary, from  the website you cited , you quoted four traditions of all of them which you felt were authentic. This dear brother, was your strongest proof:

This is Dhai'f on serious grounds.

Although Majlisi took his Ahadith, he has been weakened by Ghada'iri, Shaykh Saduq, and Sayed Khui'.

And this is what Ghada'iri had to say about him:

63 - سهل بن زياد، أبو سعيد، الآدمي، الرازي. كان ضعيفا في الحديث، غير معتمد فيه، وكان أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى يشهد عليه بالغلو والكذب، وأخرجه من قم إلى الري، وكان يسكنها. وقد كاتب أبا محمد العسكري (عليه السلام) على يد محمد بن عبد الحميد العطار، للنصف من شهر ربيع الآخر سنة خمس وخمسين ومئتين. 

63 – Sahl b. Ziyād, Abū Saʿīd al-Ādamī, al-Rāzī.  He was weak in ḥadīth, not relied upon in it.  Aḥmad b. Muḥammad b. ʿĪsā attested to ghulw and lying against him, and exiled him from Qum to Rayy, and he used to reside in it.  He had corresponded with Abū Muḥammad al-ʿAskarī upon the hand of Muḥammad b. ʿAbd al-Ḥamīd al-ʿAṭṭār, for the middle of Rabīʿ al-Ākhir in the year 255.

- https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/17/24/63/1

 

This has nothing to do with Imams being greater than Prophets. To get to that conclusion requires a lot of derivation and speculation. This could merely be emphasizing on the Ummah of Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the followers of the Ahlulbayt. Furthermore, this is quite a Gharib hadith , and it has been shown that, despite ibn Mahbub being Thiqah, he has narrated ahadith through similar chains claiming:

1. The earth is on the back of a whale

2. The daughter of Adam had 20 fingers and was killing by a lion the size of an elephant

3. Angels cause nothern/southern/westerly winds by flapping their wings

4. Mars and Venus are the cause of changes of seasons.

Even if there's no Tadlees here, while Ibn Mahbub is Thiqah, he is often careless about explicitly telling us who he obtained his narrations from. I showed how he has in many cases, performed Tadlees. This puts a big question mark when he narrates a solitary fanciful narration, which he has a reputation of doing, whether it truly can be one you even have confidence of the connection of chain. Put aside the number of Khurafat coming from him, 

Anyway, this isn't important, the Hadith doesn't prove anything & Khabar al-Wahid do not have probative forces according to many scholars, let alone when dealing with Aqeedah. You're rolling a dice relying on this only, and it requires your speculation and derivation on top.

 

 

Now help me out here - but it appears this is taken from Qisas al-Anbiya by al-Rawandi who died 573 after Hijrah. Works in this era are going to be extremely unreliable, because the chain of narrators to the Imams are going to be excessively long.

 

القطب الراوندي في قصص الانبياء: باسناده إلى الصدوق، عن ابيه، عن سعد بن عبد الله عن أحمد، بن محمد عن الحسن بن علي الخزاز، عن عبد الله بن سنان، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام

Now, according to his chain of narrators he states:

 باسناده إلى الصدوق،

However, between him and Shaykh Saduq who died 380 AH was a gap of well over 200 years. He doesn't give any chain to Shaykh as Saduq. This is therefore Mursal, disconnected and Dhai'f  (weak).  He has raised this hadith by well over 200 years , and i am struggling to find this hadith actually found in any of the works of Shaykh as -Saduq, which greatly raises doubt.

We find similar weak ahadith Nader Zaveri covers here in al Ihtijaj. 

This Hadith likely has a strong chain , but i need to absolutely be sure. But if we assume this is indeed authentic, and i can't seem to see weak narrators, it is not anythng exclusive to the Imams. But it doesn't prove Imams are superior to Prophets, and whatever is mentioned here can even be applied to Muslims, and it can certainly be applied to Prophets. How do we know this? Well, if the Hadith only applied to the Imams, and we were to take it literally, it would exclude the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Furthermore, the Hadith clearly is allegorical, emphasising the high status of those close to Allah.

We find in a Saheeh Hadith al-Qudsi in al-Kafi:

8ـ عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ خَالِدٍ عَنْ إِسْمَاعِيلَ بْنِ مِهْرَانَ عَنْ أَبِي سَعِيدٍ الْقَمَّاطِ عَنْ أَبَانِ بْنِ تَغْلِبَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ (عَلَيهِ السَّلام) قَالَ لَمَّا أُسْرِيَ بِالنَّبِيِّ (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وآلِه) قَالَ يَا رَبِّ مَا حَالُ الْمُؤْمِنِ عِنْدَكَ قَالَ يَا مُحَمَّدُ مَنْ أَهَانَ لِي وَلِيّاً فَقَدْ بَارَزَنِي بِالْمُحَارَبَةِ وَأَنَا أَسْرَعُ شَيْ‏ءٍ إِلَى نُصْرَةِ أَوْلِيَائِي وَمَا تَرَدَّدْتُ عَنْ شَيْ‏ءٍ أَنَا فَاعِلُهُ كَتَرَدُّدِي عَنْ وَفَاةِ الْمُؤْمِنِ يَكْرَهُ الْمَوْتَ وَأَكْرَهُ مَسَاءَتَهُ وَإِنَّ مِنْ عِبَادِيَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ مَنْ لا يُصْلِحُهُ إِلا الْغِنَى وَلَوْ صَرَفْتُهُ إِلَى غَيْرِ ذَلِكَ لَهَلَكَ وَإِنَّ مِنْ عِبَادِيَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ مَنْ لا يُصْلِحُهُ إِلا الْفَقْرُ وَلَوْ صَرَفْتُهُ إِلَى غَيْرِ ذَلِكَ لَهَلَكَ وَمَا يَتَقَرَّبُ إِلَيَّ عَبْدٌ مِنْ عِبَادِي بِشَيْ‏ءٍ أَحَبَّ إِلَيَّ مِمَّا افْتَرَضْتُ عَلَيْهِ وَإِنَّهُ لَيَتَقَرَّبُ إِلَيَّ بِالنَّافِلَةِ حَتَّى أُحِبَّهُ فَإِذَا أَحْبَبْتُهُ كُنْتُ إِذاً سَمْعَهُ الَّذِي يَسْمَعُ بِهِ وَبَصَرَهُ الَّذِي يُبْصِرُ بِهِ وَلِسَانَهُ الَّذِي يَنْطِقُ بِهِ وَيَدَهُ الَّتِي يَبْطِشُ بِهَا إِنْ دَعَانِي أَجَبْتُهُ وَإِنْ سَأَلَنِي أَعْطَيْتُهُ.

8. A number of our people have narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Khalid from Isma’il ibn Mehran from abu Sa’id al-Qammat from Aban ibn Taghlib from abu Ja’far ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following: “When the Holy Prophet was taken to visit the heavens, he asked, ‘O Lord, how is the condition of the believers before you?’ He (Allah) said, ‘O Muhammad, whoever insults any of My friends has declared war against Me. I am the quickest to help My friends. I have not hesitated in any of My acts as much as I do at the time of the death of a believer who dislikes death and I dislike to disappoint him. Of My believing servants there are those who do not perform well without wealth and if I change his condition he is destroyed. Also among My believing servants are those who do not perform well unless they are poor and, if I change their condition to something else, they are destroyed. For seeking nearness to Me there is no better means for My servant than to fulfill what 1 have made obligatory for them and that he should seek nearness to Me through performing optional acts of worship so I will love him. When I will love him I will be his ears with which he will hear, his eyes with which he will see, his tongue with which he will speak and his hands with which he will perform his activities. Whenever he prays I will answer him and, whenever he asks a favor, I will grant him.’” 

- https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/2/1/145/8

and this part:

"And through them He wards off grievances, and through them He sends down mercy, and through them He enlivens the dead, and causes to die the living. And through them He afflicts His creation (with tribulations), and through them He judges cases among His creation."

This is not literal. Allah does not literally tell the Ahlulbayt to create all of life and then does it via them as a route. Rather this is allegorical. Those Allah has chosen, those who are pious from the Ambiya and the Awliya, it is a more poetic, indirect meaning. I.E. Through the ethos of them being Muwahhids and truly obedient slaves of Allah, and out of Allah's love and purpose for mankind to reach that, and through the preaching of Tawheed and Islam.

For example, the Hadith of Salman b. Farsi (Radhiyallahu anhu)

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ صَفْوَانَ بْنِ يَحْيَى عَنْ حَنَانٍ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبِي يَرْوِي عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ (عليه السلام) قَالَ كَانَ سَلْمَانُ جَالِساً مَعَ نَفَرٍ مِنْ قُرَيْشٍ فِي الْمَسْجِدِ فَأَقْبَلُوا يَنْتَسِبُونَ وَ يَرْفَعُونَ فِي أَنْسَابِهِمْ حَتَّى بَلَغُوا سَلْمَانَ فَقَالَ لَهُ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ أَخْبِرْنِي مَنْ أَنْتَ وَ مَنْ أَبُوكَ وَ مَا أَصْلُكَ فَقَالَ أَنَا سَلْمَانُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ كُنْتُ ضَالًّا فَهَدَانِي اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ بِمُحَمَّدٍ (صلى الله عليه وآله) وَ كُنْتُ عَائِلًا فَأَغْنَانِي اللَّهُ بِمُحَمَّدٍ (صلى الله عليه وآله) وَ كُنْتُ مَمْلُوكاً فَأَعْتَقَنِي اللَّهُ بِمُحَمَّدٍ (صلى الله عليه وآله) هَذَا نَسَبِي وَ هَذَا حَسَبِي قَالَ فَخَرَجَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله) وَ سَلْمَانُ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ يُكَلِّمُهُمْ فَقَالَ لَهُ سَلْمَانُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ مَا لَقِيتُ مِنْ هَؤُلَاءِ جَلَسْتُ مَعَهُمْ فَأَخَذُوا يَنْتَسِبُونَ وَ يَرْفَعُونَ فِي أَنْسَابِهِمْ حَتَّى إِذَا بَلَغُوا إِلَيَّ قَالَ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ مَنْ أَنْتَ وَ مَا أَصْلُكَ وَ مَا حَسَبُكَ فَقَالَ النَّبِيُّ (صلى الله عليه وآله) فَمَا قُلْتَ لَهُ يَا سَلْمَانُ قَالَ قُلْتُ لَهُ أَنَا سَلْمَانُ بْنُ عَبْدِ اللَّهِ كُنْتُ ضَالًّا فَهَدَانِي اللَّهُ عَزَّ ذِكْرُهُ بِمُحَمَّدٍ (صلى الله عليه وآله) وَ كُنْتُ عَائِلًا فَأَغْنَانِي اللَّهُ عَزَّ ذِكْرُهُ بِمُحَمَّدٍ (صلى الله عليه وآله) وَ كُنْتُ مَمْلُوكاً فَأَعْتَقَنِي اللَّهُ عَزَّ ذِكْرُهُ بِمُحَمَّدٍ (صلى الله عليه وآله) هَذَا نَسَبِي وَ هَذَا حَسَبِي فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ (صلى الله عليه وآله) يَا مَعْشَرَ قُرَيْشٍ إِنَّ حَسَبَ الرَّجُلِ دِينُهُ وَ مُرُوءَتَهُ خُلُقُهُ وَ أَصْلَهُ عَقْلُهُ وَ قَالَ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ إِنَّا خَلَقْناكُمْ مِنْ ذَكَرٍ وَ أُنْثى وَ جَعَلْناكُمْ شُعُوباً وَ قَبائِلَ لِتَعارَفُوا إِنَّ أَكْرَمَكُمْ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ أَتْقاكُمْ ثُمَّ قَالَ النَّبِيُّ (صلى الله عليه وآله) لِسَلْمَانَ لَيْسَ لِأَحَدٍ مِنْ هَؤُلَاءِ عَلَيْكَ فَضْلٌ إِلَّا بِتَقْوَى اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ وَ إِنْ كَانَ التَّقْوَى لَكَ عَلَيْهِمْ فَأَنْتَ أَفْضَلُ.

203. Ali b. Ibrahim [narrated] from Abdullah b. Muhammad b. Isa from Safwan b. Yahya from Hanan who said: I heard my father narrated from Abu Ja’far (عليه السلام) having said: ‘Salman (رضي الله عنه) was seated with a number of people from Quraysh in a Mosque. They started priding over their lineages and ancestry until they reached Salman (رضي الله عنه). Umar b. al-Khattab said to him, ‘Inform me who you are, and who your father is, and what your origin is’.  So he said: ‘I am Salman, son of a servant of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). I had strayed but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) had guided me through Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and I was needy so Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) enriched through Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), and I was owned [as a slave] so Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) freed me through Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). This is my lineage, and this is my nobility’.  So Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) [came out and] said: 'O group of Quraysh, the nobility of a man is his Religion, and his chivalry is his manners, and his origin is his intellect, and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said: O mankind! Indeed, We created you from a male and a female, and made you nations and tribes that you may identify yourselves with one another.' {49:13}. Then the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said to Salman, ‘There is no virtue over you from any of these ones except by taqwa (i.e., fear of Allah), and if there is piety in you [superior] to them, then you are more virtous [than them].'

- https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/8/1/203/1

 

Even Amirul Mumineen would ask through those whom Allah loves or has favoured (The Prophet, other Ambiyah etc):

1ـ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ الله الْبَرْقِيِّ عَنْ عِيسَى بْنِ عَبْدِ الله الْقُمِّيِّ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ الله (عَلَيهِ السَّلام) قَالَ كَانَ أَمِيرُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ (صَلَّى اللهُ عَلَيْهِ وآلِه) يَقُولُ إِذَا فَرَغَ مِنَ الزَّوَالِ اللهمَّ إِنِّي أَتَقَرَّبُ إِلَيْكَ بِجُودِكَ وَكَرَمِكَ وَأَتَقَرَّبُ إِلَيْكَ بِمُحَمَّدٍ عَبْدِكَ وَرَسُولِكَ وَأَتَقَرَّبُ إِلَيْكَ بِمَلائِكَتِكَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ وَأَنْبِيَائِكَ الْمُرْسَلِينَ وَبِكَ اللهمَّ أَنْتَ الْغَنِيُّ عَنِّي وَبِيَ الْفَاقَةُ إِلَيْكَ أَنْتَ الْغَنِيُّ وَأَنَا الْفَقِيرُ إِلَيْكَ أَقَلْتَنِي عَثْرَتِي وَسَتَرْتَ عَلَيَّ ذُنُوبِي فَاقْضِ لِيَ الْيَوْمَ حَاجَتِي وَلا تُعَذِّبْنِي بِقَبِيحِ مَا تَعْلَمُ مِنِّي بَلْ عَفْوُكَ وَجُودُكَ يَسَعُنِي قَالَ ثُمَّ يَخِرُّ سَاجِداً وَيَقُولُ يَا أَهْلَ التَّقْوَى وَيَا أَهْلَ الْمَغْفِرَةِ يَا بَرُّ يَا رَحِيمُ أَنْتَ أَبَرُّ بِي مِنْ أَبِي وَأُمِّي وَمِنْ جَمِيعِ الْخَلائِقِ اقْبَلْنِي بِقَضَاءِ حَاجَتِي مُجَاباً دُعَائِي مَرْحُوماً صَوْتِي قَدْ كَشَفْتَ أَنْوَاعَ الْبَلايَا عَنِّي.

1. Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn ‘Isa from abu ‘Abd Allah al-Barqi from ‘Isa ibn ‘Abd Allah al-Qummi from Abu ‘Abdillah ((عليه السلام).) who has said the following: “Amir al-Mu’minin, Ali ibn abu Talib ((عليه السلام).) after completing the prayer at noon time would say, ‘O Lord, I seek nearness to You through Your generosity and magnanimity, I seek nearness to You through Muhammad, Your servant, and Your messenger, I seek nearness to You through Your favorite angels. Your messenger prophets and Your Own Self. O Lord, You are Self-sufficient and do not need me and I need You. You are wealthy and I am poor, correct my slips (mistakes) and cover up my sins, provide me help this day, do not punish me for the evil that You know of me, but pardon me and Your munificence may encompass me.’ The Imam said, ‘Then he would prostrate and say, “O You Who deserves people’s observing piety before Him, O You Who grants forgiveness, O Virtuous, and O Merciful, You are more kind to me than my father and mother and all the creatures, accept my plea in providing me help, answering my supplication and prayer, grant me favor for my call while You have already removed so many misfortunes from me.’” 

- https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/2/2/52/1

 

Thus, even if we were to accept this Khabar al-Wahid, it can be intepreted allegorically, because the entire tone of the Ahadith is allegorical and not restricted to only the Ahllubayt, but applied to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and also applied to the Ambiya before them.  Similar to Allah creating us out of love of Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is allegorical - it is to worship him and Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) represents the pinnacle of worship. 

Nevertheless, one authentic Khabar al-Wahid if you want to take it literally when it clearly is allegorical is not probative. 

 

SubhanAllah, it appears Shaykh Tusi (رضي الله عنه) was correct. There's no conclusive proof for such a position. If this is the strongest evidence you've brought. 

Can I make one suggestion? That you make your responses to me with one post, instead of spamming me with 3 or 4 different posts which makes it harder to understand where you are coming from.

The hadith which I quoted is from Qisas Al-Rawandi whose author himself either narrated from Al-Saduq (rah) through his own turuq to him, which he mentioned in his book, or through the books of Al-Saduq (rah) himself which are not available to us, and this is why Al-Majlisi (rah) relied upon Qisas Al-Rawandi as he said most of the hadiths in it which are narrated from Al-Saduq are those from Al-Saduq's own books.

You may find this evidence weak, and it is fair to say strict rijalists would.

As far as what Ibn Mahbub related, this is not a ghareeb hadith, and it is similar in language to Ziyarat Al-Jamia'ah which is accepted in matn by the great majority of scholars.

The ahadith you brought forth about accepting Du'a through the right of others is different to what this hadith says.

"Through them he enlivens the dead" and "Through them he sounds down Mercy" speaks to their closeness and wasila to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and that matters in the Universe go through them. 

You may prove this status for the other Prophets (عليه السلام) but I have not seen it specifically said about them.

And I would like to see your response to my first contention, and that which is usually used first to prove the greatness of the Imams (عليه السلام) over the previous Prophets, which is that they are no doubt more knowledgable. Would you say knowledge is not a fadhila?

5 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Allegedly, the Imams, who were meant to be observing Taqqiyah, out of a picture of a lion, made a grown adult male lion jump out of the tapestry or painted picture.

1- حدثنا محمد بن الحسن بن أحمد بن الوليد رضي اللهعنه قال حدثنا محمد بن

الحسن الصفار و سعد بن عبدالله جميعا عن أحمد بن محمد بن عيسى عن الحسن بن علي بن يقطين عن أخيه الحسين عنأبيه علي بن يقطين قال استدعى الرشيد رجلا يبطل به أمر أبي الحسن موسى بن جعفر ( ع ) ويقطعه و يخجله في المسجد فانتدب له رجل معزم فلما أحضرت المائدة عمل ناموسا علىالخبز فكان كلما رام أبو الحسن ( ع ) تناول رغيف من الخبز طار من بين يديه و استفز منهارون الفرح و الضحك لذلك فلم يلبث أبو الحسن ( ع ) أن رفع رأسه إلى أسد مصور على بعضالستور فقال له يا أسد خذ عدو الله قال فوثبت تلك الصورة كأعظم ما يكون من السباعفافترست ذلك المعزم فخر هارون و ندماؤه على وجوههم مغشيا عليهم فطارت عقولهم خوفامن هول ما رأوه فلما أفاقوا من ذلك قال هارون لأبي الحسن ( ع ) سألتك بحقي عليك لماسألت الصورة أن ترد الرجل فقال إن كانت عصا موسى ردت ما ابتلعته من حبال القوم وعصيهم فأن هذه الصورة ترد ما ابتلعته من هذا الرجل فكان ذلك أعمل الأشياء في إفاتةنفسه

 

Muhammad ibn Al-Hassan ibn Ahmad ibn al-Waleed – may God be pleased with him – narrated that Muhammad ibn Al-Hassan al-Saffar and Sa’d ibn Abdullah quoted on the authority of Ahmad ibn Muhammad ibn Isa, on the authority of Al-Hassan ibn Ali ibn Yaqteen, on the authority of his brother Al-Hussein, on the authority of his father Ali ibn Yaqteen,who said:

“Harun Ar-Rashid was looking for someone who could make fun of Abil Hassan Musa ibn Ja’far (s), belittle him and defeat him in arguments in a meeting. A magician volunteered to do so. When they spread the table to eat, the magician put a spell on the bread so that whenever Abul Hassan wanted to grab a piece of bread to eat, it would fly away from his hands. Harun was very pleased and laughed a lot at this. Then Abul Hassan turned to the picture of a lion which was on a portrait and said, “O Lion! Seize this enemy of God!” The narrator of the tradition added, “Then the picture of the lion turned into a big lion, jumped on the magician, and tore him up.”

Then Harun and all his companions who were present were watching got scared, fainted and fell down. When they regained consciousness, Harun told Abil Hassan (s), “I beg you by the right I have over you to ask the picture to return that man.” Then the Imam (s) said, “If the Cane of Moses (s) returned the canes and the ropes which it swallowed, this picture will also return that man.” The narrator of this tradition added, “This was one of the most important reasons why the Imam (s) was martyred.”

Source:Uyoon Akhbar ar-Reza by Shiekh Sadooq,Vol 1,Pg 95,Ch 8,H 1

 

<>

What these narrations would have you believe:

1. Imam Ridha completely abandoned Taqqiyah in the courts of Harun Rashid. This itself is enough to cast major, major doubt on the authenticity of this, for Imam Ridha to be performing massive feats of miracles, when not even Muhammed (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) would be going about performing these sorts of miracles.

2. A magician allegedly came and made bread jump and dance around every time the Imam had it in its hands by a magic spell. Imagine - what sort of spell was this? La Hawla wa La Quwata ila Billah, flying bewitched bread?

3. The picture apparently turned into a lion, then the lion tore the man up like a piece of Paper, and the Caliph, Harun al Rashid allegedly then begged the man to ask the lion to turn the ripped up man and patch him back together again.

SubhanAllah, this would have been the talk of the town, and spread far and wide. Furthermore, it would be Taqqiyah mode completely unravelled in front of the highest ruling authorities including the Caliph, Harun ar Rashid. 

<>

 

I will return to analyse this insha Allah. But this goes against Aql, and the noble Quran, and history.

Subhan Allah, out of all the hadiths mentioned, you picked this one which sounds odd to you. What about the other sahih hadiths which you totally ignored? 

What do you have against this hadith?

Muhammad ibn Yahya and Ahmad ibn Muhammad have narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Hassan from al-Qasim al-Nahdi from ’Isma‘il ibn Mihran from al-Kunasi from abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following:

 

 

“Abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has said, ‘Once, al-Hassan ibn Ali, recipient of divine supreme covenant, went outside the town with a man from the children of al-Zubayr who believed al-Hassan to be the Imam. They stopped for rest on one of the oases under a palm tree that had dried up due to lack of water. A furnishing was spread for Imam al-Hassan, recipient of divine supreme covenant, under that tree and for al-Zubayri the furnishings were arranged under a tree just next to it. The narrator has said that al-Zubayri looked up the tree and said, ‘I wish this tree had fruits so we could eat from them.’ Al-Hassan, recipient of divine supreme covenant, asked, ‘Do you wish to have dates?’ He said, ‘Yes, I do wish to have

dates.’ He (al-Hassan, recipient of divine supreme covenant) raised his hands to the sky and spoke certain words that I did not understand. The tree turned green. It returned to its normal condition, its leaves grew and it became loaded with dates. The man from whom they had hired camels begun to say, ‘It by Allah, is magic.’ Al-Hassan, recipient of divine supreme covenant, said, ‘Woe is upon you, it is not magic. It is a prayer of the grandson of a prophet that is answered.’ They climbed the tree to pick the dates that were there and it provided enough for their needs.’”

Source:Al-Kafi by Kulayni,Vol 1,Pg 462,H 4

Your main contention was regarding the ability to perform miracles in and of itself, not whether this particular instance happened or not. 

[Antivenom]

On 9/23/2023 at 10:59 PM, In Gods Name said:

Shaykh At-Tusi states there are different opinions, and the Aql can not prove it, and he personally withholds from having an opinion and refers the matter to Allah. Although he does say as a Shia it is permissible to believe according to his opinion that Imams are greater than all apart from one.

If you are a Shia you can also take the safe road and refer the matter to Allah because the Riwayah all give varying views and reason itself can't prove this. 

If "Aql" cannot prove anything, how it can be permissible? If "Aql" fails to prove a matter, how can there be a difference of opinion? If "Aql" cannot prove a thing, how that thing can be a "permissible to believe"? 

If believing in what is considered as "permissible" by a scholar, is not a "safe road" why then the scholar even declared such belief as permissible? 

Please mind answering these simple questions?

(Antivenom) 

[Antivenom]

On 9/27/2023 at 3:08 PM, In Gods Name said:

Imam Ali has a high station but even if these are authentic (not proven).

Still as per Shaykh Toosi, they are not clear proof Imams are higher than prophets.

That's why we say there exists maratib & levels of Knowledge. So according to Sheikh Tusi, "it is not obligatory on Imam to be knowledgeable about the Islamic Laws", he has shared these views his book "Talkhees al-Shafi page 252. According to him if Imam has all the knowledge of the Shari'ah, he would become greater in status than the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

I don't think this is a sound reasoning. One can inherit all the knowledge of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) without being greater than him, but being a part of him. 

(Antivenom)

[Inspector]

15 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

I take the view of Ayatollah al-Udma, As-Sayyed Muhammed Hussain Fadallah, Rahimahullah , in that the entire Quran is against Wilayat-Takwiniyah.

Yes he do have problems in understanding the delicate matters. Everyone cannot becomes a physicist or a mathematician, similarly late Ayatullah Fadlullah had very سطحي understanding of Quran. So I don't consider him a person of sound knowledge. 

15 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

By Allah, only Allah controls all of the atoms of the universe. The Prophet, nor his family, nor any other Prophet of God or their family, could at will make whatever they wanted to appear, appear, dissapear.

This is again the display of that exact poor understanding. So angels regulating the affairs (فالمدبرات امرا) does not negate the existence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) nor does it makes angels, partners of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

15 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Even miracles of Allah, as per Shaykh Tusi, were the Ambiya praying, and Allah then granting i.e. Jesus raising the dead.

Do you read the Quran? 

Lets see the verses which mention few miracles;

وَرَسُولًا إِلَىٰ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنِّي قَدْ جِئْتُكُمْ بِآيَةٍ مِنْ رَبِّكُمْ ۖ أَنِّي أَخْلُقُ لَكُمْ مِنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ فَأَنْفُخُ فِيهِ فَيَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۖ وَأُبْرِئُ الْأَكْمَهَ وَالْأَبْرَصَ وَأُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۖ وَأُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا تَأْكُلُونَ وَمَا تَدَّخِرُونَ فِي بُيُوتِكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لَكُمْ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ مُؤْمِنِينَ {49}

3:49) And (make him) a messenger to the children of Israel: That I have come to you with a sign from your Lord, that I determine for you out of dust like the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and it becomes a bird with Allah's permission and I heal the blind and the leprous, and bring the dead to life with Allah's permission and I inform you of what you should eat and what you should store in your houses; most surely there is a sign in this for you, if you are believers.

See what Jesus (عليه السلام) said up there! Had he been standing before the blind and praying to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) "O Allah! grant this blind person his sight", people would not have start considering him as god.

Whatever Jesus (عليه السلام) has done, done by the "permission" of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) not by his "supplication" to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Bang!!

Second verse;

وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ رَبِّ أَرِنِي كَيْفَ تُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ ۖ قَالَ أَوَلَمْ تُؤْمِنْ ۖ قَالَ بَلَىٰ وَلَٰكِنْ لِيَطْمَئِنَّ قَلْبِي ۖ قَالَ فَخُذْ أَرْبَعَةً مِنَ الطَّيْرِ فَصُرْهُنَّ إِلَيْكَ ثُمَّ اجْعَلْ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ جَبَلٍ مِنْهُنَّ جُزْءًا ثُمَّ ادْعُهُنَّ يَأْتِينَكَ سَعْيًا ۚ وَاعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ {260}

2:260) And when Ibrahim said: My Lord! show me how Thou givest life to the dead, He said: What! and do you not believe? He said: Yes, but that my heart may be at ease. He said: Then take four of the birds, then train them to follow you, then place on every mountain a part of them, then call them, they will come to you flying; and know that Allah is Mighty, Wise.

See in above verse, the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) "then call them", it is not said then call me I will give them life and they will come to you flying. 

Third verse;

قَالَ الَّذِي عِنْدَهُ عِلْمٌ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ أَنَا آتِيكَ بِهِ قَبْلَ أَنْ يَرْتَدَّ إِلَيْكَ طَرْفُكَ ۚ فَلَمَّا رَآهُ مُسْتَقِرًّا عِنْدَهُ قَالَ هَٰذَا مِنْ فَضْلِ رَبِّي لِيَبْلُوَنِي أَأَشْكُرُ أَمْ أَكْفُرُ ۖ وَمَنْ شَكَرَ فَإِنَّمَا يَشْكُرُ لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ كَفَرَ فَإِنَّ رَبِّي غَنِيٌّ كَرِيمٌ {40}

27:40) One who had the knowledge of the Book said: I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye. Then when he saw it settled beside him, he said: This is of the grace of my Lord that He may try me whether I am grateful or ungrateful; and whoever is grateful, he is grateful only for his own soul, and whoever is ungrateful, then surely my Lord is Self-sufficient, Honored.

Had Asif bin Barquiyyah started praying "O Lord, bring that throne here", the eye of Prophet Sulayman was blinked several times by then.

And how all these verse deny the fact the all these miracles were performed by & through Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? Even if the actors were the Prophets or their Ausiya? 

 

[In Gods Name]

Just to add to the thread, there are many scholars who have rightly confirmed believing that Imams are greater than Prophets is not from the usul-adeen, there is ikhtilaaf over this issue whatever their actual opinions are.

This is a scan from SC, someone sent the question to the office of Shaykh Fayaadh, one of the major scholars in Najaf. He states that Imams are inferior to the Ulul-Azam Prophets but superior to the rest. 

I obviously don't believe this, but it shows there is Ikhtilaaf and there's no solid proof.

 

 

Then add Shaykh Tusi and Sayed Fadallah etc, and it's clear there's no Ijma on this issue. I side with scholars who do not believe Imam are greater than Prophets, but i perform Tawaqquf.

Edited November 13, 2023 by In Gods Name

[In Gods Name]

Furthermore, from Jaafar al-Shilbi:

Here is the most explicit Ṣaḥīḥ (Authentic) narration regarding this, this hadīh has an impeccable chain. The wording used here is manzilah (status/rank).

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنِ ابْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنْ بُرَيْدِ بْنِ مُعَاوِيَةَ عَنْ أَبِي جَعْفَرٍ وَ أَبِي عَبْدِ اللَّهِ ع قَالَ قُلْتُ لَهُ مَا مَنْزِلَتُكُمْ وَ مَنْ تُشْبِهُونَ مِمَّنْ مَضَى قَالَ صَاحِبُ مُوسَى وَ ذُو الْقَرْنَيْنِ كَانَا عَالِمَيْنِ وَ لَمْ يَكُونَا نَبِيَّيْنِ

From Burayd b. Mu`āwiyah from Abī Ja`far and Abī `Abd Allāh said, I said to him, ‘what is your status/rank, and who do you resemble from those in the past?’ He (عليه السلام) said: ‘Companion of Mūsa (al-Khiḍr) and Dhul Qarnayn, they were two scholars and they were not Prophets’

Source:--> al-Kulaynī, al-Kāfī, vol 1, pg. 269, hadīh #5.

Grading: al-Majlisī said this hadīh is Hasan (Good).

 

This tradition is one of the few explicit ones we have when an Imam is asked what their rank is relative to Prophets. They don't compare themselves to Musa, Isa, Ibrahim asws. They don't even compare themselves to a prophet. They rather compare themselves to non-Prophets in terms of their status and rank.

This is also what i and many Shia believe, that the Imams were not higher in rank than the Prophets of God, though we perform tawaqquf, but rather were righteous scholars Ulama al-Abrar from ale Muhammed. They were still chosen by Allah,  but were Ulama al-Abrar and not on the rank of Prophets, nor are they involved in answering Duas, delegating risq, etc.

Furthermore, Imams were extremely against being labelled as Prophets. Imagine if what the Imam meant here is , don't call us Prophets, but we are superior to all of them including the ulul-Azam Prophets!

That makes absolutely no sense at all. 

 

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by In Gods Name

[Ibn Tayyar]

49 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Just to add to the thread, there are many scholars who have rightly confirmed believing that Imams are greater than Prophets is not from the usul-adeen, there is ikhtilaaf over this issue whatever their actual opinions are.

This is a scan from SC, someone sent the question to the office of Shaykh Fayaadh, one of the major scholars in Najaf. He states that Imams are inferior to the Ulul-Azam Prophets but superior to the rest. 

I obviously don't believe this, but it shows there is Ikhtilaaf and there's no solid proof.

 

 

Then add Shaykh Tusi and Sayed Fadallah etc, and it's clear there's no Ijma on this issue. I side with scholars who do not believe Imam are greater than Prophets, but i perform Tawaqquf.

There are not "many" scholars who believe such. Most of the scholars are of the opinion that the Imams (عليه السلام) are better, and even in the classical era this seems to be the case.

No one is forcing you to believe the Imams (عليه السلام) were greater, but just know that those who said it is essential only did so because they found the evidence so conclusive that it cannot be rejected.

Al-Tusi (rah) was mutawaqif but he believed all opinions on this issue were permissible, which implies all positions had their own evidence and proofs. He was only mutawaqif because he couldn't reach a satisfactory answer that suffices, but that doesn't mean other scholars and believers don't have the right to search for it.

Edited November 13, 2023 by Ibn Tayyar

[Guest Cool]

1 hour ago, In Gods Name said:

This tradition is one of the few explicit ones we have when an Imam is asked what their rank is relative to Prophets. They don't compare themselves to Musa, Isa, Ibrahim asws. They don't even compare themselves to a prophet. They rather compare themselves to non-Prophets in terms of their status and rank.

First of all, Imams are not Prophets. That is very clear to us and no shia ever claim that any Imam is a nabi or rasool. 

Secondly, you are quoting from the work of our two scholars whom you called liars, deviants, akhbaris in your multiple threads. 

Thirdly, have you ever tried to understand what these ahadith and similar to it were saying? 

Here are more similar narrations:

رواه العياشي في تفسيره عن بُريد، عن أحدِهما (عليهما السلام) قال: قلتُ له: ما منزلتُكم في الماضين أو بمَن تُشبَّهون منهم؟ قال: "الخضر وذو القرنين، كانا عالِمَين ولم يكونا نبيِّين"

رواه الكليني في الكافي بسندٍ صحيح عَنِ الْحَارِثِ بْنِ الْمُغِيرَةِ قَالَ: قَالَ أَبُو جَعْفَرٍ (ع) إِنَّ عَلِيّاً (ع) كَانَ مُحَدَّثاً فَقُلْتُ: فَتَقُولُ نَبِيٌّ؟ قَالَ: فَحَرَّكَ بِيَدِه هَكَذَا ثُمَّ قَالَ: أَوْ كَصَاحِبِ سُلَيْمَانَ أَوْ كَصَاحِبِ مُوسَى أَوْ كَذِي الْقَرْنَيْنِ أومَا بَلَغَكُمْ أَنَّه قَالَ: وفِيكُمْ مِثْلُه"

في بصائر الدرجات قال: حدَّثنا إبراهيمُ بن هاشم عن أبي عبد الله البرقي عن صفوان بن يحيى عن الحرث بن المغيرة النضري عن حمران بن أعين قال: أخبرني أبو جعفر (ع): أنَّ عليَّاً كان محدَّثا فقال أصحابنا: ما صنعتَ شيئًا ألا سئلته من يُحدِّثه فقضى أنِّى لقيتُ أبا جعفر (ع) فقلتُ: الستَ أخبرتني أنَّ عليَّاً (ع) كان مُحدَّثا قال: بلى قلتُ: مَن كان يُحدِّثه قال: ملَك قلتُ: فأقول إنَّه نبيٌّ أو رسول قال: لا، بل قل: مَثلُه مَثَلُ صاحب سليمان وصاحب موسى، ومَثَلُه مثَلُ ذي القرنين، أما سمعتَ أنَّ عليَّاً (ع) سُئل عن ذي القرنين أنبياً كان؟ قال: لا، ولكن كان عبداً أحبَّ اللهَ فاحبَّه، وناصَحَ اللهَ فنصحَه، فهذا مثلُه"

Now all these narrations are negating prophet-hood to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and are mentioning his example like khizr (عليه السلام), zulqarnayn (عليه السلام) and Asif bin Barqiyyah, the one who had some knowledge from book and who brought the throne of queen within the blink of an eye. 

All of these narrations mentioning Ali (عليه السلام) as "muhaddith", Quran on the other hand, mentioned him as wali-ullah, the one who have knowledge of book. Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) mentioned him as mowla of believers, gate of city of knowledge, bearer of the "minniyat" of Rasoolullah etc. Above all there is also a famous hadith e manzilah of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) where he said "O Ali! You are to like Harun (عليه السلام) to Musa (عليه السلام), except that there is no nabi after me". 

And lastly, the status of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as "muhaddith" would create more problems for you. These ahadith themselves are another evidence of the wilayat e takwiniyyah of Imams عليهم السلام

A person with some knowledge of book (صاحب سليمان عليه السلام) capable of bringing throne of Queen within the blink of an eye, what would be the capabilities of the one who has complete knowledge of the book!

So Khizr (عليه السلام) was deputed on batin while Musa (عليه السلام) was deputed on zahir i.e., shari'ah and here a Prophet been commanded by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to learn knowledge from a muhaddith and Musa (عليه السلام) was unable to exercise  patience with him. 

Finally, the afdaliyat of Imams over Prophets derived from the other sahih ahadith which categorically mentions that so many harf were with these blessed personalities and with the Prophets and so many are present with Imams of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام. 

If you are interested, I can pull out those ahadith from the book علم الامام of Ayatullah Kamal Haydari. 

Wassalam!

[In Gods Name]

4 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

There are not "many" scholars who believe such. Most of the scholars are of the opinion that the Imams (عليه السلام) are better, and even in the classical era this seems to be the case.

No one is forcing you to believe the Imams (عليه السلام) were greater, but just know that those who said it is essential only did so because they found the evidence so conclusive that it cannot be rejected.

Al-Tusi (rah) was mutawaqif but he believed all opinions on this issue were permissible, which implies all positions had their own evidence and proofs. He was only mutawaqif because he couldn't reach a satisfactory answer that suffices, but that doesn't mean other scholars and believers don't have the right to search for it.

Most Imamai scholars, would accept that not believing Imams are greater than Prophets, or rather, believing Prophets are greater than Imams, or performing Tawaqquf, does not take one outside of the folds of Islam. They also accept, it is one of the position of the ulema and the companions, who contended that Imams are not superior to Prophets.

Furthermore, there are notable Ulema who themselves performed Tawaqquf, or gave opinions that existed without really explicitly then siding with one, such as Shaykh at-Tusi, and Shaykh al-Mufid. Moreover, there are a number of other scholars, i believe Sayed Fadallah was one of them, who arguably sided with this.

Then again you have contemporary grand scholars, major ones who are regarded as perhaps one of the ones who will succeed Sayed Sistani in Najaf, such as Shaykh al-Fayadh, who believe that they are not superior to Ulul-Azam prophets.

<>

My intention was to prove that there are notable, major heavy weight scholars, classical and present, who did not believe Imams were superior to some or all Prophets, and these are some of the foremost scholars of our sect some of whom were our major Muhaddith and authored the most important cannocial books of our sect. My intention was also to show many scholars, such as Shaykh at-Tusi believed you simply can not prove , to him, Imams are greater than Prophets, and he chose to refer the matter to Allah. He contended this was a position a Shia could hold.

<>

This will come as a shock to many Shia, who are often just following the mainstream view of their era. But, as Shaykh Mamqani put well, many of the scholars today held positions the foremost Qudama of our sect, our classical scholars living literally a hundred years from the time of the Imams, would have considered Ghuluw and absolute heresy, which they now hold as allegedly the dhuriyaat of the Madhab i.e. essentials. Mamqani went so far as to say many or the majority of them would have been kicked out of Q'om for heresy. 

Which itself, is incredibly concerning.

 

Edited November 13, 2023 by In Gods Name

[In Gods Name]

Salam,

17 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

Sahl ibn Ziyad is differed upon and there are those who viewed him as thiqa. I'm not sure where you found that Al-Saduq weakened him, in fact Al-Saduq relied upon him alot and that is one of the arguments made in favour of his tawtheeq by those who saw him as thiqa.

It is fair to say he is differed upon.

 

He was outright regarded as a Ghali by many Ulema of our sect who kicked him out of Q'om according to Ghada'iri. Sayed Khoei' who is often reluctant to just take the views of people like Ghada'iri and even Najashi who he favoured, himself weakened him, when he has often said highly suspect people are Thiqah when in fact, there is so much evidence to err on the side of caution concerning them.

Differed upon might be a valid argument when it comes to Fiqh, but when you come to Aqeedah, i wouldn't even take the ahadith of Sahl in Fiqh but i am trying to illustrate, you can hardly take the hadith of someone so discredited by most of our classical scholars, his contemporaries, kicked out of Q'om and also ratified as weak by Khoie, 

He can't be used as proof in Fiqh, put aside a hadith regarding Aqeedah, where even a single Saheeh hadidth is not enough let alone a Dhai'f one.

17 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

Can I make one suggestion? That you make your responses to me with one post, instead of spamming me with 3 or 4 different posts which makes it harder to understand where you are coming from.

The hadith which I quoted is from Qisas Al-Rawandi whose author himself either narrated from Al-Saduq (rah) through his own turuq to him, which he mentioned in his book, or through the books of Al-Saduq (rah) himself which are not available to us, and this is why Al-Majlisi (rah) relied upon Qisas Al-Rawandi as he said most of the hadiths in it which are narrated from Al-Saduq are those from Al-Saduq's own books.

You may find this evidence weak, and it is fair to say strict rijalists would.

 I wouldn't say this is strict rijal. There is a 200 gap between the two narrators, and we can't find this hadith in the books of Shaykh as-Saduq. Any kind of basic, even moderate Rijal would consider this a highly suspect authentication. Aqeedah can not be based on Dhanni , speculative evidence. 

17 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

As far as what Ibn Mahbub related, this is not a ghareeb hadith, and it is similar in language to Ziyarat Al-Jamia'ah which is accepted in matn by the great majority of scholars.

I don't perform Taqleed in matters of Aqeedah because the Quran clearly warns against this, and what was mainstream 1000 years ago, 600 years ago, even 200 years, ago, and what is mainstream in Lebanon verses Iraq verses Iran often differs. 

Ziyarat Al-Jamia'ah is not authentic. It can not be used to support a gharib hadith by Imam Mahbub, which contains a lot of claims on the same sort of story-telling pattern of his other ahadith. Some of what Ibn Mahbub claims is contained therein and some isn't.  I am not rejecting it but i perform Tawaqquf , it is not Qati evidence for your claim either way. 

Edited November 13, 2023 by In Gods Name

[In Gods Name]

16 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

The views of Shaykh Al-Tusi are no less important than the views of the companions of the Imams (عليه السلام) themselves, who can be said to have held incredibly incorrect beliefs. In fact the only reason why Al-Tusi (rah) was mutawaqif in this mas'ala was because companions themselves differed on this i.e there was no consensus.

At the same time, Shaykh Al-Saduq (rah) whose opinion is no less important than Al-Tusi (rah) claimed that it is wajib to believe the Imams (عليه السلام) are greater.

All this tells you is that people differed on matters they themselves believed are essential beliefs.

It can probably be said that the qudama probably differed upon matters of usool itself, and what one considered wajib to believe may have been considered kufr or deviance in the eyes of someone else.

Sahl ibn Ziyad is differed upon and there are those who viewed him as thiqa. I'm not sure where you found that Al-Saduq weakened him, in fact Al-Saduq relied upon him alot and that is one of the arguments made in favour of his tawtheeq by those who saw him as thiqa.

It is fair to say he is differed upon.

Can I make one suggestion? That you make your responses to me with one post, instead of spamming me with 3 or 4 different posts which makes it harder to understand where you are coming from.

The hadith which I quoted is from Qisas Al-Rawandi whose author himself either narrated from Al-Saduq (rah) through his own turuq to him, which he mentioned in his book, or through the books of Al-Saduq (rah) himself which are not available to us, and this is why Al-Majlisi (rah) relied upon Qisas Al-Rawandi as he said most of the hadiths in it which are narrated from Al-Saduq are those from Al-Saduq's own books.

You may find this evidence weak, and it is fair to say strict rijalists would.

As far as what Ibn Mahbub related, this is not a ghareeb hadith, and it is similar in language to Ziyarat Al-Jamia'ah which is accepted in matn by the great majority of scholars.

The ahadith you brought forth about accepting Du'a through the right of others is different to what this hadith says.

"Through them he enlivens the dead" and "Through them he sounds down Mercy" speaks to their closeness and wasila to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and that matters in the Universe go through them. 

You may prove this status for the other Prophets (عليه السلام) but I have not seen it specifically said about them.

And I would like to see your response to my first contention, and that which is usually used first to prove the greatness of the Imams (عليه السلام) over the previous Prophets, which is that they are no doubt more knowledgable. Would you say knowledge is not a fadhila?

Subhan Allah, out of all the hadiths mentioned, you picked this one which sounds odd to you. What about the other sahih hadiths which you totally ignored? 

What do you have against this hadith?

Muhammad ibn Yahya and Ahmad ibn Muhammad have narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Hassan from al-Qasim al-Nahdi from ’Isma‘il ibn Mihran from al-Kunasi from abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, who has said the following:

 

 

“Abu ‘Abd Allah, recipient of divine supreme covenant, has said, ‘Once, al-Hassan ibn Ali, recipient of divine supreme covenant, went outside the town with a man from the children of al-Zubayr who believed al-Hassan to be the Imam. They stopped for rest on one of the oases under a palm tree that had dried up due to lack of water. A furnishing was spread for Imam al-Hassan, recipient of divine supreme covenant, under that tree and for al-Zubayri the furnishings were arranged under a tree just next to it. The narrator has said that al-Zubayri looked up the tree and said, ‘I wish this tree had fruits so we could eat from them.’ Al-Hassan, recipient of divine supreme covenant, asked, ‘Do you wish to have dates?’ He said, ‘Yes, I do wish to have

dates.’ He (al-Hassan, recipient of divine supreme covenant) raised his hands to the sky and spoke certain words that I did not understand. The tree turned green. It returned to its normal condition, its leaves grew and it became loaded with dates. The man from whom they had hired camels begun to say, ‘It by Allah, is magic.’ Al-Hassan, recipient of divine supreme covenant, said, ‘Woe is upon you, it is not magic. It is a prayer of the grandson of a prophet that is answered.’ They climbed the tree to pick the dates that were there and it provided enough for their needs.’”

Source:Al-Kafi by Kulayni,Vol 1,Pg 462,H 4

Your main contention was regarding the ability to perform miracles in and of itself, not whether this particular instance happened or not. 

I have no problem in that they can perform Karamaat but not Mawjiza. We will go through the narrations and i will reply to these, however, it is sufficient here to say you presented me a saheeh sanad, which is not only completely against Aql, it is so ahistorical to be considered as highly likely Khurafat. 

This then really makes us question about the validity of a lot of Khurafat with authentic sanads.

Again, lest people think i am just basing what is Khurafat on my own opinion, external Q'arain indicators, as well as the Quran, as well as what we know through widely accepted history, is that the Imams never openly preached Imamah save to a few of their close followers, who then went back to Kufa to propagate it. This itself was a recipe for disaster, because combine it with Taqqiyah and you now have the Ghulat going back, and claiming the Imams have only secretly imparted knowledge to them which when people went to the Imams to ask about, we have narrations whereby the Imams vehemently rejected a number of things.

May Allah curse the Ummayads/Abbasids responsible for the hostility on ale Muhammed which led to deviant ideas or beliefs.

I will reply later when i am more free as i have dedicated considerable time to researching and responding on here. 

Bakaralahufeekum and i pray you have andi have guidance and good health which can only come from Allah.

[Ibn Tayyar]

6 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Most Imamai scholars, would accept that not believing Imams are greater than Prophets, or rather, believing Prophets are greater than Imams, or performing Tawaqquf, does not take one outside of the folds of Islam. They also accept, it is one of the position of the ulema and the companions, who contended that Imams are not superior to Prophets.

This may shock you, but Imami scholars are not all on the same belief. It is fair to say that even in the same time period, some scholars considered other scholars of corrupt beliefs.

What one scholar believed to be a wajib belief might be considered a kufri belief by another scholar.

Shaykh Al-Bahbahani (rah) says:

الظاهر أنّ القدماء كانوا مختلفين في المسائل الأُصولية أيضاً، فربّما كان شيء عند بعضهم فاسداً وكفراً، أو غلوّاً أو تفويضاً، أو جبراً أو تشبيهاً، أو غير ذلك، وكان عند آخر ممّا يجب اعتقاده

What is apparent is that the classical scholars differed upon issues in the Usool aswell, for some of them a thing [belief] may have been [considered] corrupt or kufr or ghulu or jabr or tashbeeh or the like, but for others it may have been obligatory to believe in.

Source: Al-Fawa'id Al-Rijalliyah

I say you see this clearly in the books of our qudama, and probably most famously in the case of sahw of the Prophet (saww), where you have teo opposite opinions which both sides consider corrupt.

Therefore, when Al-Saduq (rah) says it is wajib to believe in the superiority of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), what do you think he will say about those who neglected this wajib belief? At the very least he will say they are of incorrect belief.

You need to understand that tadhleel and perhaps takfir between scholars themselves may have happened.

What you said about Al-Mamqani (rah) only further proves this, but what Al-Bahbahani (rah) says goes even further.

6 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Ziyarat Al-Jamia'ah is not authentic. It can not be used to support a gharib hadith by Imam Mahbub, which contains a lot of claims on the same sort of story-telling pattern of his other ahadith. Some of what Ibn Mahbub claims is contained therein and some isn't.  I am not rejecting it but i perform Tawaqquf , it is not Qati evidence for your claim either way. 

I believe we both confused ourselves here brother. The hadith regarding of the clay of the Shi'a is the one narrated by Ibn Mahbub, not this one: 

My father - Allah have mercy on Him - said: Sa`d b. `Abdullah narrated to us, he said: Ahmad b. Muhammad b. `Isa narrated to us, from Hasan b. Sa`eed, from Fudalah b. Ayyub, from Abban b. `Uthman, from Muhammad b. Muslim, who said: I heard Aba `Abdillah (al-Sadiq) [a] say: Indeed Allah, Mighty and Exalted, created certain creatures from His light, and a mercy from His mercy for the sake of His Mercy. For these are the eye of Allah that sees, and His ear that hears, and His tongue that speaks to His creation by His permission, and the safeguards over what has descended from (His) justifications and wanrnings and proofs. And through them He wards off grievances, and through them He sends down mercy, and through them He enlivens the dead, and causes to die the living. And through them He afflicts His creation (with tribulations), and through them He judges cases among His creation.

I asked: May I be your ransom - Who are these?

He [a] replied: Al-Awsiyaa (the vice-regents).

And this is a similar matn to Ziyarat Al-Jami'ah.

And I believe this is strong proof in the fadha'il of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام), as it shows matters of the takween go through them, due to the phrases "through them He sends down Mercy" or "through them He enlivens the dead".

Furthermore, regarding the hadith of Ibn Mahbub, just because you believe he has narrates ghara'ib in the past, that does not mean that the particular hadith of the clay is ghareeb in itself, as no scholar has made the claim that this hadith is ghareeb, and in fact there are other ahadith which are similar in language to it.

6 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

I have no problem in that they can perform Karamaat but not Mawjiza. We will go through the narrations and i will reply to these, however, it is sufficient here to say you presented me a saheeh sanad, which is not only completely against Aql, it is so ahistorical to be considered as highly likely Khurafat. 

This then really makes us question about the validity of a lot of Khurafat with authentic sanads.

Again, lest people think i am just basing what is Khurafat on my own opinion, external Q'arain indicators, as well as the Quran, as well as what we know through widely accepted history, is that the Imams never openly preached Imamah save to a few of their close followers, who then went back to Kufa to propagate it. This itself was a recipe for disaster, because combine it with Taqqiyah and you now have the Ghulat going back, and claiming the Imams have only secretly imparted knowledge to them which when people went to the Imams to ask about, we have narrations whereby the Imams vehemently rejected a number of things.

May Allah curse the Ummayads/Abbasids responsible for the hostility on ale Muhammed which led to deviant ideas or beliefs.

I will reply later when i am more free as i have dedicated considerable time to researching and responding on here. 

Bakaralahufeekum and i pray you have andi have guidance and good health which can only come from Allah.

I'm not sure where you got the belief the Imams (عليه السلام) didn't perform miracles, this belief is affirmed by the classical scholars.

It is not wajib for the Imam (عليه السلام) to perform a miracle, but all these hadiths show is it is a possibility and has happened. You can debate whether certain events happened or didn't happen, but that wasn't the main contention.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Ibn Tayyar

[Inspector]

On 11/12/2023 at 8:10 PM, In Gods Name said:

They might not be liars i.e. Kulayni was a truthful , but misguided person.

lol, changing the goal post again.

So we have the concept of "misguided truthful" now! 

If your this judgement is based on the fact that he has included narrations which mentions the distortion in Quran, may I know how you come to the judgement that he believed in the addition & subtraction in the text of Quran al-Hakeem? 

Despite the fact that Kulayni advised the readers to refer all the confusing ahadith before the Quran and accept only that which are consistent with it and return all those who are colliding with its verses.