Jump to content
In the Name of God بسم الله

Grammar Question

Rate this topic


SoRoUsH

Recommended Posts

  • Forum Administrators
On 9/23/2023 at 1:25 PM, SoRoUsH said:

سلام

I am wondering in verses 21:91 and 66:12, what does the preposition في refer to? And why is it feminine in one verse and masculine in another, even though the part of the verse they are in is identical.

Thanks!

While you wait for a human to respond here is what GPT4 says (I used your query as the prompt, in an existing conversation about the Qur'an):

The verses in question are:

1. Surah 21:91 (Anbiya): 
   
   وَالَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهَا مِن رُّوحِنَا وَجَعَلْنَاهَا وَابْنَهَا آيَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ
   
   Translation: And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit and made her and her son a sign for the worlds.

2. Surah 66:12 (Tahrim):
   
   وَمَرْيَمَ ابْنَتَ عِمْرَانَ الَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِنَا وَصَدَّقَتْ بِكَلِمَاتِ رَبِّهَا وَكُتُبِهِ وَكَانَتْ مِنَ الْقَانِتِينَ
   
   Translation: And Mary, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His scriptures, and she was of the devoutly obedient.

The preposition "في" (fee) in these verses is translated as "into" in English. It is used to describe the action of God breathing "into" Mary of His Spirit. 

Regarding the difference in gender between "فِيهَا" (feeha - feminine) in Surah 21:91 and "فِيهِ" (feehi - masculine) in Surah 66:12, it's due to the grammatical gender of the nouns they are referring to. In Arabic, the pronouns must match the grammatical gender of the nouns they refer to. 

In Surah 21:91, "فِيهَا" refers to "الَّتِي" (the female who), which is feminine, thus the feminine pronoun "هَا" is used.

In Surah 66:12, "فِيهِ" refers to "فَرْجَهَا" (her chastity), which is considered masculine, thus the masculine pronoun "هِ" is used.

This nuanced difference in pronoun gender between the two verses is a result of the precise grammatical structure in Arabic, where pronouns must agree in gender with the nouns they refer to.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
51 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

While you wait for a human to respond here is what GPT4 says (I used your query as the prompt, in an existing conversation about the Qur'an):

The verses in question are:

1. Surah 21:91 (Anbiya): 
   
   وَالَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهَا مِن رُّوحِنَا وَجَعَلْنَاهَا وَابْنَهَا آيَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ
   
   Translation: And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit and made her and her son a sign for the worlds.

2. Surah 66:12 (Tahrim):
   
   وَمَرْيَمَ ابْنَتَ عِمْرَانَ الَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِنَا وَصَدَّقَتْ بِكَلِمَاتِ رَبِّهَا وَكُتُبِهِ وَكَانَتْ مِنَ الْقَانِتِينَ
   
   Translation: And Mary, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His scriptures, and she was of the devoutly obedient.

The preposition "في" (fee) in these verses is translated as "into" in English. It is used to describe the action of God breathing "into" Mary of His Spirit. 

Regarding the difference in gender between "فِيهَا" (feeha - feminine) in Surah 21:91 and "فِيهِ" (feehi - masculine) in Surah 66:12, it's due to the grammatical gender of the nouns they are referring to. In Arabic, the pronouns must match the grammatical gender of the nouns they refer to. 

In Surah 21:91, "فِيهَا" refers to "الَّتِي" (the female who), which is feminine, thus the feminine pronoun "هَا" is used.

In Surah 66:12, "فِيهِ" refers to "فَرْجَهَا" (her chastity), which is considered masculine, thus the masculine pronoun "هِ" is used.

This nuanced difference in pronoun gender between the two verses is a result of the precise grammatical structure in Arabic, where pronouns must agree in gender with the nouns they refer to.

This looks like a hallucination. 

I mean, look at the sentences in Arabic. They are absolutely identical in structure, other than the gender on “fee”, from “Al-latee” through to “rooh’inaa.”

There doesn’t seem to be any reasonable justification for the distinction the bot is trying to make here.

Edited by kadhim
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Forum Administrators
7 minutes ago, kadhim said:

This looks like a hallucination. 

I mean, look at the sentences in Arabic. They are absolutely identical in structure, other than the gender on “fee”, from “Al-latee” through to “rooh’inaa.”

There doesn’t seem to be any reasonable justification for the distinction the bot is trying to make here.

I replied to it:

The following comment has been made on your last answer: This looks like a hallucination. I mean, look at the sentences in Arabic. They are absolutely identical in structure, other than the gender on “fee”, from “Al-latee” through to “rooh’inaa.” There doesn’t seem to be any reasonable justification for the distinction the bot is trying to make here.

It's reply:

You're right, and I apologize for the incorrect explanation earlier. The phrase structure is indeed identical in both verses. The difference in gender agreement between the two pronouns "فِيهَا" (feeha) in Surah 21:91 and "فِيهِ" (feehi) in Surah 66:12 is not due to a grammatical agreement as I incorrectly explained, but rather it is a nuanced aspect of the Qur'anic Arabic which may reflect different theological or linguistic considerations. 

In classical Arabic, and especially in Qur'anic exegesis, the precise choice of words and grammatical forms are often subject to detailed analysis by scholars. The variance in gender pronoun might carry a subtle difference in meaning or emphasis, or reflect a theological point.

It's advisable to consult with scholars of Qur'anic exegesis (Tafsir) to better understand the nuanced differences between these two verses and the significance of the gender variance in the pronoun used in the phrase "فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهَا/فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِنَا" (So We breathed into her/him of Our Spirit).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

 

1. Surah 21:91 (Anbiya): 
   
   وَالَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهَا مِن رُّوحِنَا وَجَعَلْنَاهَا وَابْنَهَا آيَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ
   
   Translation: And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit and made her and her son a sign for the worlds.

2. Surah 66:12 (Tahrim):
   
   وَمَرْيَمَ ابْنَتَ عِمْرَانَ الَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِنَا وَصَدَّقَتْ بِكَلِمَاتِ رَبِّهَا وَكُتُبِهِ وَكَانَتْ مِنَ الْقَانِتِينَ
   

Salam! 

If you look at the verses, there is more than one point between these two verses that must be paid attention to. 

a) the name Maryam is not mentioned in the first while it is mentioned in the second.

b) In first verse, the context was in mentioning the prophets (Abraham, Lot, Moses, Zechariah, and Yahya), then He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said والتي احصنت

c) In the second verse, her name was mentioned because The context was in mentioning women, including (the wife of Pharaoh, the wife of Lot, and the wife of Noah), so it is appropriate to mention her name wherever women are mentioned.

d) Her son was mentioned in the first verse but not in the second.

I think the question asked will take us to a very delicate discussion. Because I can present some more examples from Quran to further ponder over the question:

Example 1: When Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) breathed spirit into Adam (عليه السلام), He stated:

فَإِذَا سَوَّيْتُهُ وَنَفَخْتُ فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِي فَقَعُوا لَهُ سَاجِدِينَ

37:72) 

Example 2: When mentioning the ark of Noah & the divine punishment for his nation, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) stated:

حَتَّىٰ إِذَا جَاءَ أَمْرُنَا وَفَارَ التَّنُّورُ قُلْنَا احْمِلْ فِيهَا مِنْ كُلٍّ زَوْجَيْنِ اثْنَيْنِ 

So most likely, in the first verse the object mentioned is Maryam سلام الله عليها hence Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) used the feminine pronoun فيها (into her) while in the second verse, Jesus (عليه السلام) is the object instead of Maryam hence the singular masculine pronoun is used فيه (into it). 

Edited by Cool
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
3 hours ago, Cool said:

most likely, in the first verse the object mentioned is Maryam سلام الله عليها hence Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) used the feminine pronoun فيها (into her) while in the second verse, Jesus (عليه السلام) is the object instead of Maryam hence the singular masculine pronoun is used فيه (into it). 

Please elaborate. 

Both verses before and after "فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهَا/فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِنَا" seem to be very clearly about Mary. Correct?

In both verses, the preceding term before "breathing into" is فَرْجَهَا, referring to Mary.

Did God breath into Jesus through Mary, if فنفخنا فیه is referring to Jesus? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 9/24/2023 at 6:56 PM, SoRoUsH said:

Did God breath into Jesus through Mary, if فنفخنا فیه is referring to Jesus? 

No, It was done by angel in both the cases. 

If you look at the first verse you will find وَجَعَلْنَاهَا وَابْنَهَا آيَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ. 

جعلنها pointing towards Mary, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made her & her son a sign for the worlds.

So what I think is that there are two signs made, one being pointed out as object (which is feminine) in the first verse, the other being pointed out as object (which is masculine) in the second. 

Why I am thinking that way is because of the feminine singular noun آيَةً. So perhaps the case of this feminine/masculine pronouns is related with shifting the attention towards the two objects mentioned in first verse (Mary by saying و جعلناها and Jesus  by saying وابنها) separately. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
On 9/24/2023 at 9:32 PM, Cool said:

No, It was done by angel in both the cases. 

If you look at the first verse you will find وَجَعَلْنَاهَا وَابْنَهَا آيَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ. 

جعلنها pointing towards Mary, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made her & her son a sign for the worlds.

So what I think is that there are two signs made, one being pointed out as object (which is feminine) in the first verse, the other being pointed out as object (which is masculine) in the second. 

Why I am thinking that way is because of the feminine singular noun آيَةً. So perhaps the case of this feminine/masculine pronouns is related with shifting the attention towards the two objects mentioned in first verse (Mary by saying و جعلناها and Jesus  by saying وابنها) separately. 

You may be correct. 

The following narrations can be used to support your position. 

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ اِبْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنِ اِبْنِ أُذَيْنَةَ عَنِ اَلْأَحْوَلِ قَالَ: سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اَللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ عَنِ اَلرُّوحِ اَلَّتِي فِي آدَمَ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ قَوْلِهِ «فَإِذٰا سَوَّيْتُهُ وَ نَفَخْتُ فِيهِ مِنْ رُوحِي » قَالَ هَذِهِ رُوحٌ مَخْلُوقَةٌ وَ اَلرُّوحُ اَلَّتِي فِي عِيسَى مَخْلُوقَةٌ .

الکافي ج ۱، ص ۱۳۳

 

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ اَلْحَجَّالِ عَنْ ثَعْلَبَةَ عَنْ حُمْرَانَ قَالَ: سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اَللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ عَنْ قَوْلِ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ: «وَ رُوحٌ مِنْهُ» قَالَ هِيَ رُوحُ اَللَّهِ مَخْلُوقَةٌ خَلَقَهَا اَللَّهُ فِي آدَمَ وَ عِيسَى . 

الكافي ج ۱، ص ۱۳۳

Thank you

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
12 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

The verses in question are:

1. Surah 21:91 (Anbiya): 
   
   وَالَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهَا مِن رُّوحِنَا وَجَعَلْنَاهَا وَابْنَهَا آيَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ
   
   Translation: And she who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit and made her and her son a sign for the worlds.

2. Surah 66:12 (Tahrim):
   
   وَمَرْيَمَ ابْنَتَ عِمْرَانَ الَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِنَا وَصَدَّقَتْ بِكَلِمَاتِ رَبِّهَا وَكُتُبِهِ وَكَانَتْ مِنَ الْقَانِتِينَ
   
   Translation: And Mary, the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His scriptures, and she was of the devoutly obedient.

The preposition "في" (fee) in these verses is translated as "into" in English. It is used to describe the action of God breathing "into" Mary of His Spirit.

 

On 9/23/2023 at 3:55 PM, SoRoUsH said:

سلام

I am wondering in verses 21:91 and 66:12, what does the preposition في refer to? And why is it feminine in one verse and masculine in another, even though the part of the verse they are in is identical.

Thanks!

Salam

In the Holy Qur'an, both the feminine pronoun and the masculine pronoun were used in the matter of the conception of Mary (sa) and the breathing of the soul into her. What is the difference between «فنفخنا فیها» " fanafakhna feeha" and«فنفخنا فیه»  "fanafakhna feehi"?
question
Why is feehi used instead of feeha in verse 12 of Surah Tahrim?
Brief answer

In the Holy Quran, two verses similar to each other are mentioned about the quality of Maryam's pregnancy and breathing of the divine angel in her. In these two verses, it is stated that Maryam was pure and we breathed our spirit into her and she became pregnant with Isa (عليه السلام). Despite the great similarity between these two verses, there is also a significant difference. In Surah Anbiya[1], the phrase " fanafakhna feeha" is mentioned, but in Surah Tahrim[2] the phrase  "fanafakhna feehi" is mentioned.

Commentators of the Qur'an about the reason for this difference and what is the reference of the feminine pronoun «ها»"ha" and the masculine pronoun «ه»? They have given different opinions. Most of the commentators have returned the feminine pronoun "Ha" in the phrase "fanafakhna feeha" to Maryam; [3] although some have returned this pronoun to Faraj فرج, which they interpreted as  pocket of  dress which has been worn by Maryam.[4]

Of course, some commentators have clarified that the meaning of the breath of the spirit in Maryam means the breath of the spirit in the Messiah; Because Maryam herself was alive and had a soul in her body.[5]

https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/fa117404

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member

 

13 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

In Surah 21:91, "فِيهَا" refers to "الَّتِي" (the female who), which is feminine, thus the feminine pronoun "هَا" is used.

In Surah 66:12, "فِيهِ" refers to "فَرْجَهَا" (her chastity), which is considered masculine, thus the masculine pronoun "هِ" is used.

However, regarding the male pronoun in the phrase ""fanafakhna feehi"", different opinions have been presented.

Sunni commentators have generally put it back in jayb (the pocket); Because the word "Farj"«فرج» refers to any kind of gap (split , slot) and jayb a pocket is also a kind of split in cloth; [6] therefore they have considered the meaning of vagina as a split in clothes. Even in the verse where the word "Feeha" is mentioned, some Sunni commentators have interpreted it as a split in the cloth.[7] But some commentators have returned this pronoun to Farj, meaning the place where the child comes out, and others have returned it to Isa (عليه السلام), whose name is not mentioned in the verse.[8]

In the meantime, some Shia commentators emphasize that it is not correct to return this pronoun to the split of the cloth; Because the word "Farj mentioned in this verse does not mean "Farj" in cloth; Therefore, the pronoun has been returned to Farj, which means the place where the child comes out.

These commentators refer to these two verses for this type of interpretation. In both verses, the phrase " ahsanat farjaha" is mentioned, which means to preserve dignity and chastity; Therefore, the word "farj" in these two verses cannot be interpreted as a gap in cloth (Jayb / pocket).[9]

From the point of view of Arabic literature, in the verse "fanafakhna feehi", the pronoun "Feehi" can only return to the word "Farj" and there is no possibility that this pronoun can return to the word "Maryam". Because Maryam is a real woman and a male pronoun cannot be used for her.[10] In the verse ""fanafakhna feeha"" it is not possible to return "Feeha" to Farj; Because according to some Arabic language writers, the word "farj" is masculine; even if it refers to the female penis.[11]

Based on these descriptions, the meaning of the verse in Surah Anbiya is "We breathed into Maryam" and in Surah Tahirim it is translated as: "We breathed into  Maryam's vagina" which means the vagina, the female organ; Although some have considered it to mean a split in clothes.

On 9/23/2023 at 3:55 PM, SoRoUsH said:

سلام

I am wondering in verses 21:91 and 66:12, what does the preposition في refer to? And why is it feminine in one verse and masculine in another, even though the part of the verse they are in is identical.

Thanks!

https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/fa117404

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Cool said:

 

فَإِذَا سَوَّيْتُهُ وَنَفَخْتُ فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِي فَقَعُوا لَهُ سَاجِدِينَ

37:72) 

I think we really need to take help from the verses of Quran as well as ahadith of Ai'mmah e Tahireen for understanding this matter. 

The verse quote above and the following have some clues for us:

إِنَّ مَثَلَ عِيسَىٰ عِندَ اللَّهِ كَمَثَلِ آدَمَ ۖ خَلَقَهُ مِن تُرَابٍ ثُمَّ قَالَ لَهُ كُن فَيَكُونُ

3:59

The above verse is self-explanatory in nature. So there is a phase of creation (min turab) and then came the phase of amr (breathing of ruh). 

What I am thinking is that perhaps there may be two events of breathing of ruh. 

a) One into Maryam سلام الله عليها for making her pregnant during virginity as mentioned in Chapter 21:

فنفخنا فيها من روحنا

 b) One into Jesus (عليه السلام), as mentioned in Chapter 66. We know that angels breath spirit into fetus after sometime of pregnancy:

فنفخنا فيه من روحنا

The verse 3:59 already stated that "Surely the likeness of Isa is with Allah as the likeness of Adam". So Adam's first being created from Turab & then spirit was breathed into him. 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Forum Administrators
8 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

عِدَّةٌ مِنْ أَصْحَابِنَا عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عِيسَى عَنِ اَلْحَجَّالِ عَنْ ثَعْلَبَةَ عَنْ حُمْرَانَ قَالَ: سَأَلْتُ أَبَا عَبْدِ اَللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ عَنْ قَوْلِ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ: «وَ رُوحٌ مِنْهُ» قَالَ هِيَ رُوحُ اَللَّهِ مَخْلُوقَةٌ خَلَقَهَا اَللَّهُ فِي آدَمَ وَ عِيسَى

Would it be reasonable to believe that this is what distinguishes us from e.g. Neanderthals?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Veteran Member
5 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Based on these descriptions, the meaning of the verse in Surah Anbiya is "We breathed into Maryam" and in Surah Tahirim it is translated as: "We breathed into  Maryam's vagina" which means the vagina, the female organ; Although some have considered it to mean a split in clothes.

This could be another possible explanation. But I'm wondering why it is necessary to specify the organ, where the breath entered into Mary. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Advanced Member
15 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

This could be another possible explanation. But I'm wondering why it is necessary to specify the organ, where the breath entered into Mary. 

Salam propbably because creation of prophet Isa (عليه السلام) has been happened in similar fashion of creation of prophet Adam (عليه السلام) which in verses about creation of prophet Adam (عليه السلام) it has been mentioned ""nafakhtu feehi" which birth of prophet Isa (عليه السلام)  from womb of lady Maryam (sa) has been a proof that he has been from lineage of prophet Dawud (عليه السلام) which also inherited everything from his mother based on jewish traditions about inheritance from motherside as proof for opponents anyway it doesn't invalidate blood relation & relation of mother & son between prophet Isa (عليه السلام) & his mother lady Maryam (sa) which in multiple verse he has been mentioned as son of Maryam (عليه السلام) (ابن مریم) (ibnu maryama)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.transliteration/15:29

Quote

 وَإِذْ قَالَ رَبُّكَ لِلْمَلَائِكَةِ إِنِّي خَالِقٌ بَشَرًا مِّن صَلْصَالٍ مِّنْ حَمَإٍ مَّسْنُونٍ ‎﴿٢٨﴾‏ فَإِذَا سَوَّيْتُهُ وَنَفَخْتُ فِيهِ مِن رُّوحِي فَقَعُوا لَهُ سَاجِدِينَ ‎﴿٢٩﴾‏

 

 

Quote

When your Lord said to the angels, ‘Indeed I am going to create a human out of a dry clay [drawn] from an aging mud. (28) So when I have proportioned him and breathed into him of My spirit, then fall down in prostration before him.’ (29) 

 

Quote

O People of the Book! Do not exceed the bounds in your religion, and do not attribute anything to Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only an apostle of Allah, and His Word that He cast toward Mary and a spirit from Him. So have faith in Allah and His apostles, and do not say, ‘[God is] a trinity.’ Relinquish [such a creed]! That is better for you. Allah is but the One God. He is far too immaculate to have any son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth, and Allah suffices as trustee. (171) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/4:171

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.transliteration/4:171

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...