Question about the difference between Messenger, Prophet and Imam

[Ibn Murtuz]

It was claimed by Shias, that:

Messenger sees and hears the angel in awakness and sleep. 

Prophet hears the angel and sees him while asleep, but does not see him while awake though hears the speech.

Imam is the one who hears the angel in awakness while does not see him in awakness or sleep.

Source: 

https://thaqalayn.net/chapter/1/4/3

 

Question: But doesn’t that mean, that even according to Shia standards, Imamah is a lower station than Messengership and Prophethood?

Edited September 23 by Ibn Murtuz

[Ashvazdanghe]

41 minutes ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

Question: But doesn’t that mean, that even according to Shia standards, Imamah is a lower station than Messengership and Prophethood?

Salam Imamah is not lower than both of Messengership and Prophethood which according to assigning of prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) as Imam while he has been a prophet (عليه السلام) so it shows that Imamah belongs to chosen prophets & messengers not all of them so therefore infallible Imams have higher position than all prophets except prophet Muhammad (pbu) who has superiority to both of all prophets & Messengers and infallible Imams .

Nabī – prophet: Does not have any sharī’a, divine rules and laws, but follows the sharī’a of other messengers and spreads it. According to narrations, Allāh has send 124 000 prophets all around the world, whereof some are mentioned in the Tawrā and the Injīl.

Rasūl – messenger: All of the messengers, every single one of them are also prophets, they have their own sharī’a and are obligated to spread the message. Thus the position and status of the messengers of Allāh are higher than the prophets, and 25 of them are mentioned in the Noble Qur’ān. All the prophets mentioned in the Noble Qur’ān are also messengers.

They are two different positions and task. So they are not equal.

Imamah: An Imam is the worldly and spiritual leader after the prophet and chosen, not by the prophet, but by Allāh. That have same attributes than Prophet but is not Prophet.

I hope you understand the differences now.

related discussion

 

 

[Ibn Murtuz]

23 hours ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

It was claimed by Shias, that:

The Messenger sees and hears the angel in awakness and sleep. 

The Prophet hears the angel and sees him while asleep, but does not see him while awake though hears the speech.

The Imam is the one who hears the angel in awakness while does not see him in awakness or sleep.

My point is that, according to Shia beliefs, Messengers see and hear more than Prophets, and Prophets see and hear more than Imams in relation to their interactions with angels.

But doesn't that imply that, even by Shia standards, Imamah is of a lower station than Messengership and Prophethood?

[Ibn Tayyar]

On 9/23/2023 at 7:29 PM, Ibn Murtuz said:

It was claimed by Shias, that:

Messenger sees and hears the angel in awakness and sleep. 

Prophet hears the angel and sees him while asleep, but does not see him while awake though hears the speech.

Imam is the one who hears the angel in awakness while does not see him in awakness or sleep.

Source: 

https://thaqalayn.net/chapter/1/4/3

 

Question: But doesn’t that mean, that even according to Shia standards, Imamah is a lower station than Messengership and Prophethood?

No, that doesn't mean that. Having an attribute that someone else doesn't have does not make them better.

There is no wahi (revelation) - in the sense of tashree - after the Prophet (saww), and so the Imam (عليه السلام) has no need to see Jibraeel (عليه السلام) to perform his duties. The Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah that the Prophet (saww) came with is everything we need to be guided, and it is the final Message. The role of the Imam (عليه السلام) is to protect it and guide the people through it.

In the Holy Qur'an, many people were given khusoosiyat that others may have not been given. For example, can it be said that Musa (عليه السلام) is greater than Ibrahim (عليه السلام) because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) spoke to him directly? Al-Khidr (عليه السلام) may have been given a knowledge that was not given to Musa (عليه السلام), does that make him better?

Edited September 24 by Ibn Tayyar

[Abu_Bakr_]

7 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

 

There is no wahi (revelation) - in the sense of tashree - after the Prophet (saww), and so the Imam (عليه السلام) has no need to see Jibraeel (عليه السلام) to perform his duties. The Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah that the Prophet (saww) came with is everything we need to be guided, and it is the final Message. The role of the Imam (عليه السلام) is to protect it and guide the people through it.

 

You sure about this?

https://www.fnoor.com/main/articles.aspx?article_no=32579

 

[In Gods Name]

On 9/24/2023 at 5:08 AM, Ibn Tayyar said:

No, that doesn't mean that. Having an attribute that someone else doesn't have does not make them better.

There is no wahi (revelation) - in the sense of tashree - after the Prophet (saww), and so the Imam (عليه السلام) has no need to see Jibraeel (عليه السلام) to perform his duties. The Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah that the Prophet (saww) came with is everything we need to be guided, and it is the final Message. The role of the Imam (عليه السلام) is to protect it and guide the people through it.

In the Holy Qur'an, many people were given khusoosiyat that others may have not been given. For example, can it be said that Musa (عليه السلام) is greater than Ibrahim (عليه السلام) because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) spoke to him directly? Al-Khidr (عليه السلام) may have been given a knowledge that was not given to Musa (عليه السلام), does that make him better?

Aren't the twelve Imams almost super-ululazam prophets?

Think about it according to some shias, and not all of them or most

Twelve imams: Created before all of creation. Made of light. Can answer prayers. Have more knowledge than ululazam prophets. Are more pious than all of them apart from Mohammad peace on him.  Some even say God by his permission created the universe through the twelve imams and prophet. 

Honestly, Prophethood stopped, but why? Imams are almost an a thousand times more superior in power and attributes than any prophet apart from Muhammed peace on him.  

If you're telling me after the prophet died, we had beings a thousand times better than even the ululazam prophets, who possess all things prophets do, but apparently can not see angels, so it does not violate the Quran saying prophethood has ended?

[Ibn Tayyar]

2 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Aren't the twelve Imams almost super-ululazam prophets?

Think about it according to some shias, and not all of them or most

Twelve imams: Created before all of creation. Made of light. Can answer prayers. Have more knowledge than ululazam prophets. Are more pious than all of them apart from Mohammad peace on him.  Some even say God by his permission created the universe through the twelve imams and prophet. 

Honestly, Prophethood stopped, but why? Imams are almost an a thousand times more superior in power and attributes than any prophet apart from Muhammed peace on him.  

If you're telling me after the prophet died, we had beings a thousand times better than even the ululazam prophets, who possess all things prophets do, but apparently can not see angels, so it does not violate the Quran saying prophethood has ended?

 

Brother, please do not throw in ridiculous beliefs - such as the Imams being the creators - among sound beliefs.

The reason the Shi'a claim the Imams (عليه السلام) had more knowledge is because they inherited the Imams (عليه السلام) inherited the knowledge of the Prophet (saww), who himself had the knowledge of all previous Prophets.

The problem is you have misunderstood both the roles of Prophets and Imams. They are not here to "possess abilities".

Edited September 24 by Ibn Tayyar

[Ashvazdanghe]

11 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

You sure about this?

https://www.fnoor.com/main/articles.aspx?article_no=32579

Salamin whole of mentioned article  @Ibn Tayyar post has been verified .

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 9/24/2023 at 12:22 PM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

You sure about this?

https://www.fnoor.com/main/articles.aspx?article_no=32579

 

More explanation about your reffered site is that it's a wahabi site so it completly misinterpreted any shia belief through Wahabi viewpoint so therefore it has no scientific or reational even logical  value although when you read it as negative article about shias so therefore it proves truth of Shia viewpoints . which in this article has tried to create confusion through a chaotic misinterpretation which it has been  tried to show تشریع Tashri' by infallibles as something against تشریع Tashri' & Sunnah by prophet Muhammad (pbu) because jurisprudence (Fiqh)  in Shia  islam in opposition  to Sunni Islam is a dynamic Fiqh in opposition to rigid & obsolete Sunni fiqh which an infallible Imam (عليه السلام) can interpret Sunnah of prophet Muhammad (pbu) based on his inherited knowldge from previous infallible Imam (عليه السلام) which all returns to  prophet Muhammad (pbu) teachings to Amir al Muminin imam Ali (عليه السلام) which Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has received all of his knowledge from prophet Muhammad (pbu) which in similar fashion prophet Muhammad 9pbu) has received all of his knowledge from Allah which any infallible Imam (عليه السلام) has explained every Sunnah based on condition of his time without violationg Sunnah of prophet Muhammad (pbu) while in your mentioned site Wahabi writer  have tried to  accuse infallible Imams  to violation of original Sunnah & creating new Sunnah from themselves without having any realtion to holy Quran or Sunnah of prophet Muhammad (pbu) ..

[hanbali]

Imams being better than prophets is a joke. Later imams like sajjad, baqur and kazim and others are not even better that early companions like hamza, khadijah, ibn masud, abu dujanah. Let alone being better than prophets.

And why should you not spend in the cause of Allah, while Allah is the ˹sole˺ inheritor of the heavens and the earth? Those of you who donated and fought before the victory ˹over Mecca˺ are unparalleled. They are far greater in rank than those who donated and fought afterwards.1 Yet Allah has promised each a fine reward. And Allah is All-Aware of what you do.

Surah hadid 10