Quran proves Prophets are the best of creation

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21 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

3) The verse is saying the same people have been given these things together. As for inheritors of the knowledge the Quran talks about this in a different light. Surah Fatir verse 32

ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا ٱلْكِتَـٰبَ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌۭ لِّنَفْسِهِۦ وَمِنْهُم مُّقْتَصِدٌۭ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌۢ بِٱلْخَيْرَٰتِ بِإِذْنِ ٱللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ ٱلْفَضْلُ ٱلْكَبِيرُ ٣٢

Then We caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself [i.e., sins], and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allāh. That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty.

4) Again not taking the apparent meaning with no evidence. That is not allowed. The verse itself doesn't make any exceptions of "people chosen" or "people not chosen" hence why that argument can be made.

Alusi, one of the Sunni commentators, in his interpretation of Ruh al-Ma'ani (tafseer-e-rooh-ul-maani) under verse 55 of Surah Ma'ida, known as the verse of Wilayat, believes that caliphate is divided into two types: outward caliphate and inner caliphate. He believes that sometimes the external and internal caliphate have been gathered in one person, which according to the hadith of one  light حدیث_نور_واحد this type of caliphate, which is also it's highest one of it ,It is gathered in the existence of Hazrat Ali ((عليه السلام).).[7]

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Your guardian is only Allah, His Apostle, and the faithful who maintain the prayer and give the zakat while bowing down. (55)

Alusi and Shia
 

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Alusi - like some commentators before him - has a prejudiced view of Shia, and in addition to common accusations, there are slanders against Shia that are not found in the words of others [11] and some Shia researchers have also responded to them. [12]

https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/question/fa47681

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/حدیث_نور_واحد

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/5:55

https://archive.org/details/tafseer-e-rooh-ul-maani/Tafseer e Rooh ul Maani/mode/2up

Ali ibn Abu Talib (عليه السلام) Ten proofs of his superiority From authentic Sunni sources.

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Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal said: "There is no companion concerning whom are reported as many merits as Ali ibn Abi Talib (a s)"

 

Proof Four: He Resembled the Prophets (s).

The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "He who wants to see Noah (a) in his determination, Adam (a) in his knowledge, Abraham (a) in his clemency, Moses (a) in his intelligence and Jesus (a) in his religious devotion should look at Ali Ibn Abi Talib (a)."

Sunan al-Bayhaqi , Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Tafsir al-Kabir by Fakhruddin al-Razi and others

 

On many occasions, Umar said about Imam Ali (a): "If there was no Ali, Umar would have perished!"

Fadha'il al-Sahaba by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p647, Hadith 1100. Al-Isti'ab, by Ibn Abd al-Barr al qurtubi, v3, p39; Manaqib, by al-Khawarizmi, p48.Al-Riyadh al Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, v2, p194;.Tarikh al-Khulafaa, by Jalaluddin al-Suyuti, p171

 

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Proof Ten: His name is written on the Gate of Paradise.

The Messenger of Allah (s) said:

"It is written on the gate of Paradise : `There is no god but Allah, Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, Ali is the Brother of the Messenger of Allah'."

Al-Awsat by Tabarani. Al-Muttafaq wal-Muftaraq By al-Khatib. Kanz al-Ummal. Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal page 35, Vol. 5. Ibn `Asakir page 46.

These are just a small sample of the merits of imam Ali (a).

This presentation cannot do justice to the Commander of the Faithful.

 

 

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Ahmed ibn Hanbal said: "Ali had many enemies who searched hard to find a fault attributable to him, but they could not, so they brought a man whom Ali had fought and battled with, and praised him because of their hatred towards Ali.”

 

http://www.khanwadeabutalib.com/public/ilm/rarticle/Superiority-Of-Ali-Ibne-Abi-Talib-(A-S-)/163/7

https://www.al-islam.org/ask/is-imam-ali-as-superior-to-all-the-prophets-other-than-prophet-mohammad-(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

 

Since the Holy Prophet was superior to all other prophets, ‘Ali was also superior to them

In Ihya'u'l-Ulum by Imam Ghazali, Sharhe Nahju'l-Balagha by Ibn Abi'l-Hadid Mu'tazali, the Tafsir by Imam Fakhru'd-Din Razi, and Tafsirs by Jarullah Zamakhshari, Baidhawi, Nishapuri, etc., you will find this hadith of the Holy Prophet: "The ulama’ of my community are like the prophets of the Bani Isra'il."

In another hadith he said: "The ulama’ of the Prophet's community were equal to or better than the prophets of the Bani Isra'il simply because their source of knowledge was that fountainhead of learning, the Prophet Muhammad.

Therefore, ‘Ali Ibn Abu Talib was definitely superior to the prophets, since the Prophet said: "I am the city of knowledge, and ‘Ali is its gate." He also said: I am the house of wisdom and ‘Ali is its gate." When ‘Ali, himself, was asked about this topic, he explained some aspects of his superiority to the prophets of the Children of Isra'il.

On the 20th of Ramadhan, when ‘Ali was on his death bed following the attack by Abdu'r-Rahman Ibn Muljim Muradi, he asked Imam Hasan to call in the Shi’as who had gathered at the door of his house.

When they entered, they surrounded his bed and wept silently. ‘Ali said: You may ask any question you like before I leave you, but your questions should be brief." One of those present was Sa'sa'a Ibn Suwhan. Your own great ulama’, like Ibn Abdu'l-Birr and Ibn Sa'ad, have written about his life and character, have relied on him, confirming that he was a man of great learning.

Sa'sa'a said to ‘Ali: "Let me know who is superior, you or Adam." The Holy Imam said: "It is not proper for a man to praise himself, but according to the maxim: 'Declare the blessings that Allah has given you,' I tell you that I am superior to Adam." When asked why this was so, ‘Ali explained that Adam had every means of mercy, comfort, and blessings for him in paradise. He was asked simply to abstain from the forbidden food. But he could not restrain himself, and he ate from the tree.

As a result, he was expelled from paradise. Allah did not forbid him, ‘Ali, from eating wheat (which, according to Muslim belief was the forbidden 'tree'). But since he had no inclination towards this temporal world, he voluntarily refrained from eating wheat. (The point of ‘Ali's remark was that excellence of a man before Allah lies in piety and devotion, and that the height of piety lies in abstaining even from what is permissible.)

Sa'sa'a asked: "Who is superior, you or Noah?" ‘Ali replied: "I am superior. Noah called his men to worship Allah, but they did not obey. Their shameful mistreatment was torture to him. He cursed them and invoked Allah: 'O my Lord! Leave not on the earth a single person of the unjust ones.' After the death of the Prophet, even though the people caused me extreme difficulty, I never cursed them. I suffered their torment with patience."

Sa'sa'a asked: "Who is superior, you or Abraham?" ‘Ali replied: "I am superior, for Abraham said:

'My Lord! Show me how Thou Givest life to the dead.' He said: 'What! do you not believe?' He said: 'Yes, but that my heart may be at ease.' (2:260)

My faith was such that I said: 'If the veil over the unseen were lifted, my faith would not increase."

Sa'as'a asked: "Who is superior, you or Moses?" The Holy Imam replied: "I am superior, for when Almighty Allah ordered Moses to go to Egypt to invite Pharaoh to the truth, Moses said:

'My Lord! Surely I killed one of them, so I am afraid that they will slay me. And my brother Aaron, he is more eloquent of tongue than I. Therefore send him with me as an aide, to help me. Surely I fear that they will reject me." (28:33-34)

The Holy Prophet ordered me, by the command of Allah, to go to Mecca and to recite the verses of the Chapter 'Al-Bara'a' from the top of the Ka'ba to the Quraish infidels. I was not afraid, even though there were few people there who had not lost a near relative by my sword. Obeying his order, I performed my duty alone. I recited the verses of 'Al-Bara'a' and returned."

Sa'sa'a asked: "Who is superior, you or Jesus?" ‘Ali said: "I am superior, for when Mary became pregnant by the Grace of Allah, and the time of her delivery approached, a revelation was granted to her: 'Leave this Holy House for this is a House for prayers, not a place for the delivery of children.' Accordingly, she left the Holy House and went to the wilderness where she gave birth to Jesus.

But when my mother, Fatima Bint al-Asad, felt labor pains within the precincts of the Holy Ka'ba, she clung to the wall and prayed to Allah in the name of that House and the builder of that House, to lessen her pain. Soon a fissure appeared in the wall, and my mother heard a mysterious voice telling her, "O Fatima! Enter the House of the Ka'ba.' She went in, and I was born inside of the Holy Ka'ba."

https://www.al-islam.org/peshawar-nights-sayyid-muhammad-al-musawi-al-shirazi/seventh-session-wednesday-night-29th-rajab-1345#holy-prophet-was-superior-all-other-prophets-‘ali-was-also-superior-them

 

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related topic 

 

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Words of light For Imam Al Askari A S

 The Preference Of The Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) 
Imam Abu Muhammad ((عليه السلام).) said
“We have ascended the tops of facts by the feet of prophethood and guardianship, and lit the seven ways with the banners of magnanimity. We are lions of battles, sources of generosity. Sword and pen are among us now, and the banner of praise and knowledge later on. Our grandsons are the successors of religion, allies of certainty, lamps of nations, and the keys of generosity. A generous one has put on the garment of choice for loyalty that we have known in him, and the Holy Spirit in the Heavens, and he tasted from our gardens early fruits. Our

 

Shia are the rescued party, and the pure group. They have been as dress and protection for us, and assistance against oppressors…Springs of life will gush out for them after flames of Fire…and all bad years…’

Sheikh al-Majlisi commented on this word by saying, ‘This is absolute wisdom, and an ample blessing that deaf ears can

hear and high mountains shake for. Peace and blessings of Allah be on them…’[1]

The imams of the Ahlul Bayt ((عليه السلام)) had a very high position near Allah Who had endowed them with virtues and knowledge that no one of the human beings other than them had ever been endowed with. Allah had made them the guides to His contentment, and the leaders to His obedience. They all were and are lamps to nations and keys of generosity in this life, and in the afterlife they will be the intercessors and bearers of the banner of Hamd (praise), and Allah has given them the Highest Paradise.

His Recommendation To His Adherents
Imam Abu Muhammad ((عليه السلام).) preached and advised his Shia by saying,

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“I recommend you to fear Allah, be pious in your religion, strive for Allah, be truthful in speaking, give deposit back to its owner good or bad he is, increase prostration, and to be good to neighbors. By these (principles) Muhammad ((عليه السلام).) came with his mission. Associate with your kin, attend their funerals, visit their sick, and carry out their rights, for if anyone of you is pious in his religion, truthful in his speech, he gives deposit back to its owner, and treats people kindly, it shall be said about him: “this is a Shia”, and this shall please me.

Fear Allah, be good and do not be bad! Attract every love to us, and keep any obscenity away from us, because whatever good is said about us we deserve it, and whatever bad is said about us is not in us. We have a right in the Book of Allah, kinship to the messenger of Allah, and purification from Allah that no one other than us claims but a liar. Mention Allah too much and remember death! Recite the Qur`an and send peace and blessings on the Prophet ((عليه السلام)), because the sending of blessings on the Prophet ((عليه السلام)) has ten good deeds. Keep in mind what I have recommended you! I pray Allah to protect you (I farewell you), and send peace on you.’[1]

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[1] Bihar al-Anwar, vol.78 p.338.

[1] Bihar al-Anwar, vol.78 p.372.

http://shiastudies.com/en/963/words-of-light-for-imam-al-askari-a-s/

 

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Is there any virtue for Abu Bakr in the Incident of the Cave?

Then Allah sent down His tranquility upon His Messenger and upon the believers.’ (Surah Taubah (9): Verse 26)

But in the Verse of the Cave, Allah the High mentions only one recipient of the tranquility while there were two residents inside the cave and clearly this sole recipient is the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) and not  Abu Bakr. So there are several questions these Muslims need to answer when it comes to Abu Bakr’s so-called virtues:

1. In all instances in the Quran of tranquility, it has either descended on the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) or on the believers or on both. But in the Verse of the Cave, tranquility descends only on the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) – while a companion was present with him ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) who if he was a believer should also have been a recipient of tranquility as is the case with other verses on tranquility.
2. Why did Allah single out the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) for tranquility (سَكِينَتَهُ) and leave out his companion Abu Bakr?
3. Doesn’t the Verse of the Cave establish Abu Bakr’s lack of belief or in the least unworthiness for tranquility?
4. With so many points going against Abu Bakr only with reference to a single incident of the cave, how can these Muslims make a sweeping claim for his superiority and hoist him on the pedestal of caliphate?

The only conclusion one can derive is that these Muslims have erred in their understanding of the Incident of the Cave or rather have deliberately concluded some points to fashion a backdoor entry for Abu Bakr after the matter of caliphate was conclusively settled by Allah and His Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) in favor of Ameerul Momineen Ali b. Abi Talib ((عليه السلام).)!

https://www.seratonline.com/23486/is-there-any-virtue-for-abu-bakr-in-the-incident-of-the-cave/

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On 9/20/2023 at 5:07 PM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Musnad Ahmad. It's shows a lack of sincerity. 

 

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«خلقت أنا و علىّ من نور واحد»(2)؛ (من و على از یک نور آفریده شدیم).

  I & Ali have been created from same light 

 

(4). ر.ک: مسند أحمد بن حنبل، باب المناقب؛

ميزان الاعتدال، ج 1، ص 235 به نقل از ابن عساكر در تاريخش؛ ا

Referrence : Musnad  Ahmad ibn hanbal , chapter of virtues (Manqib),

Mizan -al-itidal , v 1 , p 235  according to Ibn Asakir in his history book . 

https://waqfeya.net/book.php?bid=2673

https://sunnah.com/ahmad/5

On 9/20/2023 at 5:07 PM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Ali is related to the Prophet, part of the Ahlul-Bayt and his son in Law. Very different to Zayd. That is all you have mentioned worth a comment.

 

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It was narrated that `Alı (رضي الله عنه) said:

When we left Makkah, the daughter of Hamzah followed us, crying: O uncle, O uncle. I took her by the hand and gave her to Fatimah and said: Here is your cousin. When we came to Madinah, Ja`far, Zaid bin Harithah and I disputed concerning her, Ja`far said: She is the daughter of my paternal uncle and her maternal aunt is married to me - meaning Asma’ bint `Umais, Zaid said. She is the daughter of my brother. I said: I took her and she is the daughter of my paternal uncle. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said: “As for you, O Ja`far, you resemble me in appearance and attitude. As for you, O Ali, you are of me and I am of you. As for you, O Zaid, you are our brother and our freed slave. The girl should be with her maternal aunt, for the maternal aunt is [like] a mother.” I said: O Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), why don`t you marry her? He said: `She is the daughter of my brother through breastfeeding.“

 

حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ آدَمَ، حَدَّثَنَا إِسْرَائِيلُ، عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ، عَنْ هَانِئِ بْنِ هَانِئٍ، وَهُبَيْرَةَ بْنِ يَرِيمَ، عَنْ عَلِيٍّ، رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ لَمَّا خَرَجْنَا مِنْ مَكَّةَ اتَّبَعَتْنَا ابْنَةُ حَمْزَةَ تُنَادِي يَا عَمِّ وَيَا عَمِّ قَالَ فَتَنَاوَلْتُهَا بِيَدِهَا فَدَفَعْتُهَا إِلَى فَاطِمَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهَا فَقُلْتُ دُونَكِ ابْنَةَ عَمِّكِ قَالَ فَلَمَّا قَدِمْنَا الْمَدِينَةَ اخْتَصَمْنَا فِيهَا أَنَا وَجَعْفَرٌ وَزَيْدُ بْنُ حَارِثَةَ فَقَالَ جَعْفَرٌ ابْنَةُ عَمِّي وَخَالَتُهَا عِنْدِي يَعْنِي أَسْمَاءَ بِنْتَ عُمَيْسٍ وَقَالَ زَيْدٌ ابْنَةُ أَخِي وَقُلْتُ أَنَا أَخَذْتُهَا وَهِيَ ابْنَةُ عَمِّي فَقَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ أَمَّا أَنْتَ يَا جَعْفَرُ فَأَشْبَهْتَ خَلْقِي وَخُلُقِي وَأَمَّا أَنْتَ يَا عَلِيُّ فَمِنِّي وَأَنَا مِنْكَ وَأَمَّا أَنْتَ يَا زَيْدُ فَأَخُونَا وَمَوْلَانَا وَالْجَارِيَةُ عِنْدَ خَالَتِهَا فَإِنَّ الْخَالَةَ وَالِدَةٌ قُلْتُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ أَلَا تَزَوَّجُهَا قَالَ إِنَّهَا ابْنَةُ أَخِي مِنْ الرَّضَاعَةِ‏.‏

 

Grade:

Hasan (Darussalam)] (Darussalam)

Reference	: Musnad Ahmad 770
In-book reference	: Book 5, Hadith 202

 

حَدَّثَنَا حَجَّاجٌ، حَدَّثَنَا إِسْرَائِيلُ، عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ، عَنْ هَانِئِ بْنِ هَانِئٍ، وَهُبَيْرَةَ بْنِ يَرِيمَ، عَنْ عَلِيٍّ، أَنَّ ابْنَةَ حَمْزَةَ، تَبِعَتْهُمْ تُنَادِي يَا عَمُّ يَا عَمُّ فَتَنَاوَلَهَا عَلِيٌّ فَأَخَذَ بِيَدِهَا وَقَالَ لِفَاطِمَةَ دُونَكِ ابْنَةَ عَمِّكِ فَحَوِّلِيهَا فَاخْتَصَمَ فِيهَا عَلِيٌّ وَزَيْدٌ وَجَعْفَرٌ فَقَالَ عَلِيٌّ أَنَا أَخَذْتُهَا وَهِيَ ابْنَةُ عَمِّي وَقَالَ جَعْفَرٌ ابْنَةُ عَمِّي وَخَالَتُهَا تَحْتِي وَقَالَ زَيْدٌ ابْنَةُ أَخِي فَقَضَى بِهَا رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ لِخَالَتِهَا وَقَالَ الْخَالَةُ بِمَنْزِلَةِ الْأُمِّ ثُمَّ قَالَ لِعَلِيٍّ أَنْتَ مِنِّي وَأَنَا مِنْكَ وَقَالَ لِجَعْفَرٍ أَشْبَهْتَ خَلْقِي وَخُلُقِي وَقَالَ لِزَيْدٍ أَنْتَ أَخُونَا وَمَوْلَانَا فَقَالَ لَهُ عَلِيٌّ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ أَلَا تَزَوَّجُ ابْنَةَ حَمْزَةَ فَقَالَ إِنَّهَا ابْنَةُ أَخِي مِنْ الرَّضَاعَةِ‏.‏

It was narrated from ‘Ali (رضي الله عنه) that the daughter of Hamzah followed them, crying: O uncle, O uncle. ‘Ali took her by the hand and said to Fatimah (رضي الله عنها), Here is your cousin, look after her. ‘Ali, Zaid and Ja`far disputed concerning her. Ali said: I took her and she is the daughter of my paternal uncle. Ja`far said: She is the daughter of my paternal uncle and her maternal aunt is married to me, Zaid said: She is the daughter of my brother. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) ruled that she be given to her maternal aunt and said: `The maternal aunt is like the mother.` Then he said to ‘Ali: `You are of me and I am of you.” And he said to Ja’far: `You resemble me in appearance and attitude.” And he said to Zaid: `You are our brother and our freed slave.` ‘Ali (رضي الله عنه) said to him. O Messenger of Allah (ﷺ), why don`t you marry the daughter of Hamzah? He said: `She is the daughter of my brother through breastfeeding.`

Musnad Ahmad 931
https://sunnah.com/ahmad:931

 

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حَدَّثَنَا أَسْوَدُ يَعْنِي ابْنَ عَامِرٍ، أَنْبَأَنَا إِسْرَائِيلُ، عَنْ أَبِي إِسْحَاقَ، عَنْ هَانِئِ بْنِ هَانِئٍ، عَنْ عَلِيٍّ، رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ أَتَيْتُ النَّبِيَّ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَجَعْفَرٌ وَزَيْدٌ قَالَ فَقَالَ لِزَيْدٍ أَنْتَ مَوْلَايَ فَحَجَلَ قَالَ وَقَالَ لِجَعْفَرٍ أَنْتَ أَشْبَهْتَ خَلْقِي وَخُلُقِي قَالَ فَحَجَلَ وَرَاءَ زَيْدٍ قَالَ وَقَالَ لِي أَنْتَ مِنِّي وَأَنَا مِنْكَ قَالَ فَحَجَلْتُ وَرَاءَ جَعْفَرٍ‏.‏

It was narrated that ‘Ali (رضي الله عنه) said: I came to the Prophet (ﷺ), along with Ja`far and Zaid. He said to Zaid: `You are my mawla,`and Zaid hopped with joy. He said to Ja`far: `You resemble me in appearance and attitude.” And he hopped with joy behind Zaid. And he said to me: `You are of me and I am of you.” And I hopped behind Ja`far.

Musnad Ahmad 857
https://sunnah.com/ahmad:857

 

https://ia904700.us.archive.org/24/items/waqmsnda/msnda02.pdf

https://quranwork.com/musnad-ahmad-ibn-hanbal-pdf-download/  (Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal PDF Download (Urdu & English))

Glimpses of Shi'ism in the Musnad of Ibn Hanbal

https://islamicmobility.com/pdf/Glimpses of Shiism Musnad Ibn Hanbal.pdf

 

Some Traditions on the Virtues of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام))

https://www.sibtayn.com/en/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=7466:some-traditions-on-the-virtues-of-imam-ali-a-s&catid=267&Itemid=338

Quote

Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and al-Hakim recorded with authentic document from Abu Said al-Khudri, that the Apostle of God said to Ali: "Verily you will do battle for (implementation of) the Quran, as you has done for its revelation."

https://m-mahdi.com/english/articles/Articles/0025.htm

 

 

 

[Abu_Bakr_]

Salam upon those who follow guidance 

8 hours ago, Cool said:

I would also like to add another hadith from Tarikh e Damishq about the same Abu Musa:

عن أبي يحيى حكيم قال: كنت جالساً مع عمّار، فجاء أبو موسى، فقال: مالي ولك! قال: ألست أخاك؟
قال: ما أدري، إلاّ أنّي سمعت رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وسلّم يلعنك ليلة الجمل.
قال: إنّه قد استغفر لي.
قال عمّار: قد شهدت اللّعن ولم أشهد الإستغفار

تاريخ مدينة دمشق - ابن عساكر - ج ٣٢ - الصفحة ٩٣

Note: ليلة الجمل means ليلة العقبة

It is of no surprise that these brothers of Ahlul Sunnah try to protect the munafiqeen. Abu Musa al-Ash'ari is a very small character, they are bent on defending greatest munafiqeen of all i.e., Muawiyah (L). 

From these characters, we go back in history & see who appointed these munafiqeen as governors during their caliphates! Who accommodated these munafiqeen in their governments! And  picture becomes clear to us. 

Weak hadiths that you seem to only quote.

 

May Allah curse who curses the Sahaba. If you can't debate without L'aan then it shows how weak your points are. Quran Surah Al-Hadid verse 10

وَمَا لَكُمْ أَلَّا تُنفِقُوا۟ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ وَلِلَّهِ مِيرَٰثُ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٰتِ وَٱلْأَرْضِ ۚ لَا يَسْتَوِى مِنكُم مَّنْ أَنفَقَ مِن قَبْلِ ٱلْفَتْحِ وَقَـٰتَلَ ۚ أُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ أَعْظَمُ دَرَجَةًۭ مِّنَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَنفَقُوا۟ مِنۢ بَعْدُ وَقَـٰتَلُوا۟ ۚ وَكُلًّۭا وَعَدَ ٱللَّهُ ٱلْحُسْنَىٰ ۚ وَٱللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرٌۭ ١٠

And why do you not spend in the cause of Allāh while to Allāh belongs the heritage of the heavens and the earth? Not equal among you are those who spent before the conquest [of Makkah] and fought [and those who did so after it]. Those are greater in degree than they who spent afterwards and fought. But to all Allāh has promised the best [reward]. And Allāh, of what you do, is Aware.

 

Do you also send L'aan on Aqeel who stood with Muawiyah? Or is it a matter of desires?

[Ibn Tayyar]

10 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

These are two different statements.

 

One is pointing to Prophets not mentioned as possibly being better than those mentioned. For example, our Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). That is what is meant by best of their time.

If "alameen" is to be interpreted to mean "in their time", which is an accepted interpretation among some mufasireen even from your sect, (an interpretation you originally rejected), how is it then possible to link this meaning with any relevance towards those who existed in a different time? This is an addition from you that doesn't make sense. 

All this Verse is telling us is that the mentioned Prophets were the best of people of their time. Nothing more, nothing less. Was it due to them being given the status of Prophethood? Sure, why not, the Prophets were better than the non-Prophets of their time. We have no disagreement here.

Like I told you in my previous post, the only way your belief holds up is if you believe "al-alameen" means "all times".

And if you do believe that, well that's your choice, but then you have your tafsir and we have ours. And we leave it at that.

But if "al-alameen" is to mean "in their times", which the Shi'a mufasireen and some Sunni mufasireen have concluded, then your view doesn't hold, at all.

I haven't mentioned the Verse of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) and don't intend to.

_____

NOTE: I know some brothers are using the story of Al-Khidr (عليه السلام) and Musa (عليه السلام) as a point of argument, but I just want to inform the outside readers is not our belief that Al-Khidr (عليه السلام) is better than Musa (عليه السلام) regardless of whether Al-Khidr (عليه السلام) was given some knowledge which Musa (عليه السلام) wasn't given. In fact, we have narrations that tell us Musa (عليه السلام) was more knowledgable than Al-Khidr (عليه السلام), and he was certainly more knowledgable in the matters of tashree'.

Musa (عليه السلام) made judgement based on the thawaahir (apparentness) of what was happening, and that is his takleef, and the takleef of everyone. In fact, it was a form of nahi an al munkar. But Al-Khidr (عليه السلام) knew the baatin, and so he had a different takleef. 

Certainly the status of Musa (عليه السلام), a Prophet, a Messenger, and one of the Ulul Azm, would lead one to believe he is better. 

Edited September 23 by Ibn Tayyar

[Abu_Bakr_]

14 minutes ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

If "alameen" is to be interpreted to mean "in their time", which is an accepted interpretation among some mufasireen even from your sect, (an interpretation you originally rejected), how is it then possible to link this meaning with any relevance towards those who existed in a different time? This is an addition from you that doesn't make sense. 

All this Verse is telling us is that the mentioned Prophets were the best of people of their time. Nothing more, nothing less. Was it due to them being given the status of Prophethood? Sure, why not, the Prophets were better than the non-Prophets of their time. We have no disagreement here.

Like I told you in my previous post, the only way your belief holds up is if you believe "al-alameen" means "all times".

And if you do believe that, well that's your choice, but then you have your tafsir and we have ours. And we leave it at that.

But if "al-alameen" is to mean "in their times", which the Shi'a mufasireen and some Sunni mufasireen have concluded, then your view doesn't hold, at all.

I haven't mentioned the Verse of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) and don't intend to.

 

One statement can be used by different people to mean two completely different meanings. I and you know I am debating shias who take this statement to mean something completely different to what a Sunni means by saying it.

Al-Alameen linguistically is general. Although as I have said previously in this post it can be specified with evidence. All Sunni scholars including Al-Baghawai will agree Prophets are the best of creation. He clearly doesn't mean what Shias here are trying to say. 

However, what he is saying is that these Prophets aren't better than our Prophet for example. That is what he means by their time. The evidence to make this exception, if we take this understanding, is clear hence allowed.

It can be linked to people of other times as the reason each was the best of their time is Prophethood. Hence showing Prophethood is the highest maqam. 

(Note: Let us say I am mistaken and this is really his view. It is possible for someone to believe the Prophets are the best of creation and yet claim the evidence is something apart from this verse.) 

16 minutes ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

 

NOTE: I know some brothers are using the story of Al-Khidr (عليه السلام) and Musa (عليه السلام) as a point of argument, but I just want to inform the outside readers is not our belief that Al-Khidr (عليه السلام) is better than Musa (عليه السلام) regardless of whether Al-Khidr (عليه السلام) was given some knowledge which Musa (عليه السلام) wasn't given. In fact, we have narrations that tell us Musa (عليه السلام) was more knowledgable than Al-Khidr (عليه السلام), and he was certainly more knowledgable in the matters of tashree'.

Musa (عليه السلام) made judgement based on the thawaahir (apparentness) of what was happening, and that is his takleef, and the takleef of everyone. In fact, it was a form of nahi an al munkar. But Al-Khidr (عليه السلام) knew the baatin, and so he had a different takleef. 

Certainly the status of Musa (عليه السلام), a Prophet, a Messenger, and one of the Ulul Azm, would lead one to believe he is better. 

Alhamdullah

[Cool]

19 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

This is a big problem with debating Shias. Shiasim is very different to every Shia. That is why I am always eager to quote shia scholars

We face the same problem when discussing things with Sunni's lol. We need to figure out who believes that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is literally sitting upon the throne etc. (Hanafi, Salafi, Deobandi, Wahabi, Ahlul Hadith etc.)

The classical shia view differs. You will find three categories among shias about the status of Imams as mentioned by Sheikh Mufid:

a) The Imams are loftier than all prophets, except for the Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

b) The Imams are loftier than the prophets, except for the arch-prophets (ulul azm).

c) All prophets are loftier than the Imams.

For "Intra-Prophetic Superiority" difference also exist there except that every Muslim believe that Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is superior to every Prophet/Messenger. 

My personal view is that which is present in the holy Quran i.e., 

تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ مِّنْهُم مَّن كَلَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَاتٍ

And that is why I don't hold any opinion about this intra-prophetic superiority. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have excelled some of them on others. Yes the "Ulul Azm" among the prohets holds higher status but that doesn't mean that the rest are lower in every aspect. And we normally say that there are 5 ulil azm prophets but do we have any "nass" from Quran that they are only 5 ? And this superiority debate would then take you with the circle of "Ulil Azm" Prophets. So who is superior Musa (عليه السلام) or Isa (عليه السلام)? Who is superior Ibrahim (عليه السلام) or Musa (عليه السلام)? 

For Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), we have nass in Quran. Being "khulqin azeem", being "rehmatan lil aalameen" being the possessor of "muqamin mehmood" are sufficient clues for concluding his superiority. 

You asked me yes or no answer of "who is superior Musa or Khizr?" I replied you there is no yes or no and there is no comparison between them because Musa (عليه السلام) is holding the ظاهري knowledge which us related to Shari'ah while the other holding the باطني knowledge  which is related to Mashi'ah. 

19 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

The evidence is that the Ulul Azm are better than the non Ulul Azm.

Where is the evidence "نص القرأني" about the numbers of "Ulul Azm" ? 

In Islamic history you will find different figures. It is a different matter that majority believes that their number is 5. 

19 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Again it goes back to my previous point. Classical Sunnis and Shias agree that person is Khidr. Although they may have disagreed on him being a Prophet even Sunnis. Yet you are suggesting otherwise. Ofcourse I will leave the details for another thread. The evidence of him being a Prophet are statements he said in Surah Al-Kahf

Have I ever stated Khizr wasn't a Prophet? Have I ever stated that he was a Prophet? No, I am only discussing his case in light of a single verse which has introduced him as an Abd to who Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) granted علم الدني and رحمة. Rest of the matter was related to the Musa (عليه السلام) being impatient with him. 

So my personal notes of that story have three main points:

a) relationship between knowledge & mercy.

b) relationship between khabr & sabr.

c) Two types of knowledge, one being zahiri while other being batini. 

The ones who are deputed on zahir, face persecutions more than the ones who are deputed on batin. So their level of "Azm" can be witnessed clearly. Those who are deputed on batin, haven't faced such trials for displaying their level of patience, so I am not comparing them in superiority. 

20 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

I know the Prophet is the best of All of creation. I am using this point against you. You seem to claim being "of me", even though I have clearly proved otherwise, makes you of the same status.

Your using of poor argument is not holding the ground. The minniyat expressed by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has something special in it. And I am now providing further evidences, for instance:

علي مني وأنا منه ، ولا يؤدي عني إلاّ أنا أو علي

إن علياًً مني وأنا منه ، وهو ولي كل مؤمن بعدي.

أنت مِنِّي بمنزلةِ هارونَ من موسى أَلَا إنك لَسْتَ نبيًّا أنه لا ينبغي أن أذهبَ إلا وأنت خليفتي في كلِّ مؤمنٍ مِن بعدي

إِنَّما فاطمةُ بَضْعَةٌ مِنِّي ، يُؤْذِينِي ما آذَاها ، و يُنْصِبُنِي ما أنْصَبَها

حُسينٌ منِّي ، و أنا منه ، أحبَّ اللهُ مَن أحبَّ حُسينًا ، الحسَنُ و الحسينُ مِن الأسباطِ

This "minniyat" clearly is something else which you purposely don't want to look at. 

How funny, you even said that Ali's (عليه السلام) participation in mubahila was as a son lol. Which scholars of your creed hold this opinion?

Ali (عليه السلام) was representing the "nafs" of Rsaool (انفسنا و انفسكم). Fatima s.a representing the females (نسا ءنا), Hassan (عليه السلام) & Hussain (عليه السلام) were representing the sons. (ابناءنا). 

20 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

The verse has nothing to do with Ali. It is pointing to the fact that the people who have knowledge of Scripture (Jews and Christians) know he is a Prophet as their book told of his coming.

I know your scholars name Abdullah bin Salam in the tafseer of و من عنده علم الكتاب. 

How funny is this idea that Quran itself is not the witness of the Prophethood! How funny is the idea that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) added jews & christians as witness here who don't even accept Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as Prophet! 

How funny is the idea that the ones who have knowledge of the scripture, instead of witnessing the Prophethood, came to mubahila. 

How funny is the idea that the christians of "Habasha" needed the recitation of Sura e Maryam for figuring out that Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is a Prophet. 

Who among the Muslims (Other than Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) have "knowledge of the book" (علم الكتاب)? 

And here I don't mean some knowledge, I mean complete knowledge (mohkam & mutashabeh). 

20 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

The shias claim Aqeedah needs Mutawatir Hadith but the Hadith you quote is only Ahad.

lol, our aqeedah is not based on Sahah Sattah. 

I am glad that at least you never rejected this report at least. I can counter your "ahad argument" as well. But don't want to prolong this thread further. 

20 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

The chapter title says:

باب مَا يُسْتَحَبُّ لِلْعَالِمِ إِذَا سُئِلَ أَىُّ النَّاسِ أَعْلَمُ فَيَكِلُ الْعِلْمَ إِلَى اللَّهِ

Meaning you either say Allah is most knowledgeable (about who is the smartest).  

Or it can say Allah is the most knowledgeable (meaning all knowledge comes from him).

Actually, you don't accept where things went wrong from your side. 

"Who among shiachat is most knowledgable?" 

So we should answer this by saying Allah is most knowledgeable. lol 

And I pointed out by highlighting the question asked from Musa (عليه السلام). But you are bent of defending the wrongdoings of your elders lol, so I can't help. 

By the way, many of the Sunni Scholars even now says:

والله اعلم و رسوله اعلم

When you say Allah is thr "source" of every knowledge, the concept of greatest ends right there. He is the One & Only You are doing the mistake of Abu Hanifah who misinterpreted the meaning of الله اكبر

20 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

fabricated hadith according to Ibn Al-Jawzi and weak according to others.

Again rejecting the gradings of your own scholars lol, even though the reference are there too. 

[Guest Stranger]

Salam

The proof of the family of Mohamad (s) being superior are actually many in Quran and Sunnah.  

(1) That Ayat of Muwadat. Why do I say it is a proof? The reward verses over all are from the perspective they are an accusation against the Nabi (s), It means what disbelievers see the Nabi (s) is forging it if he is a false Nabi.  From power, fame, superiority, authority, moral land-scaping, center of attention, etc, seen as "rewards", God says what would those rewards be but taking towards their Lord a path in 25:57.  Now 42:23 shows in fact, is nothing but recognition, love and affection of the chosen ones for who they are.   There is one loved they are all being demanded, which shows, they are to be loved as much as the Nabi (s). This is not possible if they are not all the same rank.  It means the same love owed to the Nabi (s) is shared with the rest of his family (a).

(2) Ayat Tatheer.  The Inama limits what God desires do keep away and remove to be nothing but uncleanness in the first portion. This means all blessings Prophets (a) and close Angels (a) are blessed with, Ahlulbayt (a) have it.  It also means not a single blessing is ever removed from them, showing they have perfect infallibility.  IT also means whatever blessings Mohammad (s) has, the family of Mohammad (s) get's as well.  The second portion says the only ones who God wishes to purify with a perfect utmost purity (expressions of double words mean that) is the Ahlulbayt (a). And they are purified together all with the same level of purity showing they are one with the Prophet (s).

(3) We can deduce for similar reasons Mohammad (s) would be superior that Imam Mahdi (a) being a Messenger (not a Nabi though) sent to whole world and filling it with justice, would also be superior.  There are verses predicting a future universal Messenger (the Mahdi) the world will be tested by.

(4) Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) emphasized a lot that each person of an Ahlulbayt is equally as important to be believed in. For example Yusuf (a) is an important to be believed in as Ibrahim (a). Haroun (a) as important as Musa (a).  This shows that to see the founder as superior as people generally due to belief of importance over others, is Satanic. We aren't to distinguish between members of an Ahlulbayt in terms of importance. This means we can't say rank of Haroun (a) is less then rank of Musa (a) because Haroun (a) is second as that would out of deeming the first more important than the second.  And so this concept of an Ahlulbayt shows they are to be treated as one unit and seen to ascend together. For example , Yahya (A) and Isa (a) they ascend together since they are part of the same Ahlubayt.  Ahlulbayt (a) of Mohammad (S) are to be treated as one unit as well, ascending together. This means as they are the last family, they would be the highest rank of all Ahlulbayts.  The chosen ones due differ in rank but not within an Ahlulbayt. Within an Ahlulbayt, they are all have same rank and no distinguishing between should be made. It's rather one Ahlulbayt (a) replaces another, and they are always a superior and more luminous Ahlulbayt (a) that replaces a past one.

(5) There are chosen non-Anbiya in the Quran. For example, Sarah (a) is said to be of Ahlulbayt (a) of Ibrahim (a) and hence equal with the Prophets (s) of that family. The same is true of Mariam (a) with her family.  The Quran says he chose their two Ahlulbayts (a) above the worlds (3:33) as well.  Sarah (a) is part of Auli-Ibrahim which is chosen above the worlds.

[Abu_Bakr_]

9 minutes ago, Cool said:

We face the same problem when discussing things with Sunni's lol. We need to figure out who believes that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is literally sitting upon the throne etc. (Hanafi, Salafi, Deobandi, Wahabi, Ahlul Hadith etc.)

You really just throw names. Hanafi and Deobandi as if they are not the same. Wahabi and Salafi as if the Hanbali scholars at the time of MIAW didn't do Tabdi' and some even Takfeer of him. Early shia were Mujassima and Mushabiha. Later Shia are Mutazila, followers of Ibn Arabi (pantheism) or full on Masha'i. This is another topic for another day.

Allah's highness is also another topic. 

16 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

The classical shia view differs. You will find three categories among shias about the status of Imams as mentioned by Sheikh Mufid:

a) The Imams are loftier than all prophets, except for the Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

b) The Imams are loftier than the prophets, except for the arch-prophets (ulul azm).

c) All prophets are loftier than the Imams.

For "Intra-Prophetic Superiority" difference also exist there except that every Muslim believe that Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is superior to every Prophet/Messenger. 

 

Thanks for proving that Shias views evolve. A view that used to be a difference of opinion amongst Shias became a essential belief as stated by Al-Khomeini.

18 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

My personal view is that which is present in the holy Quran i.e., 

تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ مِّنْهُم مَّن كَلَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَاتٍ

And that is why I don't hold any opinion about this intra-prophetic superiority. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have excelled some of them on others. Yes the "Ulul Azm" among the prohets holds higher status but that doesn't mean that the rest are lower in every aspect. And we normally say that there are 5 ulil azm prophets but do we have any "nass" from Quran that they are only 5 ? And this superiority debate would then take you with the circle of "Ulil Azm" Prophets. So who is superior Musa (عليه السلام) or Isa (عليه السلام)? Who is superior Ibrahim (عليه السلام) or Musa (عليه السلام)? 

For Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), we have nass in Quran. Being "khulqin azeem", being "rehmatan lil aalameen" being the possessor of "muqamin mehmood" are sufficient clues for concluding his superiority. 

You asked me yes or no answer of "who is superior Musa or Khizr?" I replied you there is no yes or no and there is no comparison between them because Musa (عليه السلام) is holding the ظاهري knowledge which us related to Shari'ah while the other holding the باطني knowledge  which is related to Mashi'ah. 

 

Lack of clearness on what you are trying to say. Do you have to be superior in ever aspect to be superior overall? Just because we know some Prophets are greater than others doesn't mean we know every single Prophets specific status. As for Musa and Khidr I believe your fellow Shia has made clear the Shia view.

22 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

Where is the evidence "نص القرأني" about the numbers of "Ulul Azm" ? 

In Islamic history you will find different figures. It is a different matter that majority believes that their number is 5. 

 

There isn't a Nass for the number of them. Don't see what you are trying to prove by saying this.

23 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

Have I ever stated Khizr wasn't a Prophet? Have I ever stated that he was a Prophet? No, I am only discussing his case in light of a single verse which has introduced him as an Abd to who Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) granted علم الدني and رحمة. Rest of the matter was related to the Musa (عليه السلام) being impatient with him. 

 

If he is a Prophet then why bring him up in this debate? Even if he wasn't bringing him up had no reason in this debate in reality.

31 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

Your using of poor argument is not holding the ground. The minniyat expressed by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has something special in it. And I am now providing further evidences, for instance:

علي مني وأنا منه ، ولا يؤدي عني إلاّ أنا أو علي

إن علياًً مني وأنا منه ، وهو ولي كل مؤمن بعدي.

أنت مِنِّي بمنزلةِ هارونَ من موسى أَلَا إنك لَسْتَ نبيًّا أنه لا ينبغي أن أذهبَ إلا وأنت خليفتي في كلِّ مؤمنٍ مِن بعدي

إِنَّما فاطمةُ بَضْعَةٌ مِنِّي ، يُؤْذِينِي ما آذَاها ، و يُنْصِبُنِي ما أنْصَبَها

حُسينٌ منِّي ، و أنا منه ، أحبَّ اللهُ مَن أحبَّ حُسينًا ، الحسَنُ و الحسينُ مِن الأسباطِ

This "minniyat" clearly is something else which you purposely don't want to look at. 

 

You haven't really done much. You just repeated your point. I have already proved that these statements aren't sepcific to Ahlul-Bayt. You agreed on this partly (Accepted one narration and didn't accept the other). Also, you are continuing to show a lack of understanding for Arabic. Saying "minni" somehow equals being greater than Prophets?

Furthermore, I do not want to go into details not related to this topic but some of the wordings you have mentioned above aren't authentic.

35 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

I know your scholars name Abdullah bin Salam in the tafseer of و من عنده علم الكتاب. 

How funny is this idea that Quran itself is not the witness of the Prophethood! How funny is the idea that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) added jews & christians as witness here who don't even accept Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as Prophet! 

How funny is the idea that the ones who have knowledge of the scripture, instead of witnessing the Prophethood, came to mubahila. 

How funny is the idea that the christians of "Habasha" needed the recitation of Sura e Maryam for figuring out that Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is a Prophet. 

Who among the Muslims (Other than Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) have "knowledge of the book" (علم الكتاب)? 

And here I don't mean some knowledge, I mean complete knowledge (mohkam & mutashabeh). 

 

Fear Allah and remember you will be asked about every word. I have merely stated here what is clearly stated in other verses. This part of your statement is very dangerous

 

"How funny is this idea that Quran itself is not the witness of the Prophethood! How funny is the idea that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) added jews & christians as witness here who don't even accept Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as Prophet! "

 

Quran Surah Yunus verse 94

 

فَإِن كُنتَ فِى شَكٍّۢ مِّمَّآ أَنزَلْنَآ إِلَيْكَ فَسْـَٔلِ ٱلَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ ٱلْكِتَـٰبَ مِن قَبْلِكَ ۚ لَقَدْ جَآءَكَ ٱلْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ ٱلْمُمْتَرِينَ ٩٤

 

So if you are in doubt, [O Muḥammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

 

Although the verse is directed linguistically to the Prophet, he doesn't have doubts. It is a proof for the people to ask the Jews and Christians. Do you regularly read the Quran? 

41 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

lol, our aqeedah is not based on Sahah Sattah. 

 

"Sahah Sattah" Lol. Only two are Sahihs. Also, if you want to "prove" your aqeedah from "our" books you have to fulfil the conditions you claim are necessary. I am not imposing them on you!

44 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

Actually, you don't accept where things went wrong from your side. 

"Who among shiachat is most knowledgable?" 

So we should answer this by saying Allah is most knowledgeable. lol 

And I pointed out by highlighting the question asked from Musa (عليه السلام). But you are bent of defending the wrongdoings of your elders lol, so I can't help. 

By the way, many of the Sunni Scholars even now says:

والله اعلم و رسوله اعلم

When you say Allah is thr "source" of every knowledge, the concept of greatest ends right there. He is the One & Only You are doing the mistake of Abu Hanifah who misinterpreted the meaning of الله اكبر

 

Take the Arabic title of that chapter to any professor of Arabic in the world and tell me if he agrees with you! What else can I say.

45 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

Again rejecting the gradings of your own scholars lol, even though the reference are there too. 

You literally quoted books that are made for mentioning fabricated hadiths. Please read the answer and try to actually refute it.

[Abu_Bakr_]

52 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

How funny, you even said that Ali's (عليه السلام) participation in mubahila was as a son lol. Which scholars of your creed hold this opinion?

Ali (عليه السلام) was representing the "nafs" of Rsaool (انفسنا و انفسكم). Fatima s.a representing the females (نسا ءنا), Hassan (عليه السلام) & Hussain (عليه السلام) were representing the sons. (ابناءنا). 

 

A lot of the Shia claims and doubts didn't exist at the time of classical scholars. Hence you will find only later scholars talking about them. For example, you will see some claims that the first to address was Ibn Taymiyyah.

The meaning of the verse clearly isn't talking about anyones "nafs" (soul or essence). Such a meaning is only understood when you apply your assumed belief to the verse, not when reading the Arabic. Again you repeated what you said as if that somehow answered what I said earlier.

Also, you haven't made clear the link between being the "nafs" of the Prophet and being better than the other Prophets. This statement can easily be understood as a statement of praise to show how similar they are.

In Shia books does Ali not say "I am the knowledge of Allah". Ignoring however problematic that statement is, Shia scholars didn't take that to mean Ali is equal to Allah.

[Cool]

6 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

You really just throw names.

Pretending as there are no sub sects within sunnis lol. Some of you don't even pray after each other. I have personally witnessed that several times. 

8 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Early shia were Mujassima and Mushabiha.

lol, early shia were the shia. The shia views are reflected by the ahadith of their Imams. And the Imams of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام from Ali (عليه السلام) to the 12th, quite clear about tauheed. 

11 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Thanks for proving that Shias views evolve

Evolve in the sense that there are offshoots loke Zaidiyah, Ismaili's etc. Each have his own set of opinions which Sheikh Mufeed collectively mentioned. 

13 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Lack of clearness on what you are trying to say. Do you have to be superior in ever aspect to be superior overall?

lol, So Musa (عليه السلام) have excelled over Khizr and Khizr (عليه السلام) excelled over Musa (عليه السلام) in some aspects (if not over all). 

Thanks for proving yourself wrong!

14 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

believe your fellow Shia has made clear the Shia view.

I am surprised by his statement. Shia view of about intra-prophetic excellence is not usually discussed except the fact that Ulul Azm Prophets are superior. 

The case of Khizr (عليه السلام) is so unique that my brother should have expressed his opinion with caution because we have reports in our books that Khizr (عليه السلام) even offered condolence to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) after the wafat of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

The reality of Khizr (عليه السلام) is partially known, very much of his personality is still ghayb for us. 

22 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

There isn't a Nass for the number of them.

And who is going to decide who among prophets is Ulul Azm? We or Allah? 

So He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only said in Quran about Adam (عليه السلام) that We didn't find Azm in him. Now any effort, without the nass, of proving only so & so & Ulul Azm would be a تجاوز. 

26 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

If he is a Prophet then why bring him up in this debate? Even if he wasn't bringing him up had no reason in this debate in reality.

lol, the verse says "Abdan min Ibadena", every abd is not a Prophet necessarily. There was a person with علم من الكتاب in the palace of Prophet Suleman (عليه السلام) who brought the throne within the blink of an eye. That was also an Abd of Allah. 

The person in Aal e Fir'on who was hiding his faith, was also an Abd of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Ali (عليه السلام) is not only an Abd of Allah but he is also famous as yadullah, aynullah, lisanullah etc. And is also emerged as nafs e rasool according to the verse of Mubahila. 

34 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Quran Surah Yunus verse 94

 

فَإِن كُنتَ فِى شَكٍّۢ مِّمَّآ أَنزَلْنَآ إِلَيْكَ فَسْـَٔلِ ٱلَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ ٱلْكِتَـٰبَ مِن قَبْلِكَ ۚ لَقَدْ جَآءَكَ ٱلْحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ ٱلْمُمْتَرِينَ ٩٤

As usual, your creed always twist the meanings. 

ذالك الكتاب لا ريب فيه

Which kitab is being mentioned here? Quran or earlier scripture? 

و من عنده علم الكتاب 

Which kitab is being mentioned here? Quran or earlier scriptures? 

Don't post the assumptions of your scholars here. Bring in the nass! As for the verse you shared, it clearly mentioning من قبلك

39 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Only two are Sahihs. Also, if you want to "prove" your aqeedah from "our" books you have to fulfil the conditions you claim are necessary. I am not imposing them on you!

Where you got the idea that I want to prove you "my aqeedah" from your books? 

An alleged ahad report as per your claim doen't mean we have also a single report about Imam Mehdi ajtf.

41 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Take the Arabic title of that chapter to any professor of Arabic in the world and tell me if he agrees with you! What else can I say.

lol, why don't you just look at the question asked from Musa (عليه السلام)? 

And then look at the chapter heading lol. 

42 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

You literally quoted books that are made for mentioning fabricated hadiths

lol, It is you who are saying this about your books and rejecting your scholars. 

 

[Cool]

32 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Such a meaning is only understood when you apply your assumed belief to the verse, not when reading the Arabic. Again you repeated what you said as if that somehow answered what I said earlier.

You and your Ibn Taymiyyah both need to learn Arabic. Please tell me the meaning of انفسنا، the pronoun نا points towards whom? 

The 1st person plural possessive pronoun for abna'ana, nisa'ana, anfusana, points toward whom? 

 

[Cool]

49 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

The meaning of the verse clearly isn't talking about anyones "nafs" (soul or essence).

And what do you think the abna'ana & nisa'ana were people without the nafs? lol 

So why is there anfusana? And that "anfusana" is because of the direct command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Even though there are words like تَعَالَوْا and نَدْعُ are there too. 

 

[Abu_Bakr_]

This topic seems to be approaching its end.

11 minutes ago, Cool said:

Pretending as there are no sub sects within sunnis lol. Some of you don't even pray after each other. I have personally witnessed that several times. 

There are of course. But I am pointing to Shias being much worse, yet trying to use it against Sunnis. Also, the original comment was due to you not following your scholars.

  

12 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

lol, early shia were the shia. The shia views are reflected by the ahadith of their Imams. And the Imams of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام from Ali (عليه السلام) to the 12th, quite clear about tauheed. 

 

 

You need to do some more reading. This is another topic. I guess Hisham isn't Shia.

13 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

Evolve in the sense that there are offshoots loke Zaidiyah, Ismaili's etc. Each have his own set of opinions which Sheikh Mufeed collectively mentioned. 

 

That is clearly not what we are talking about. Al-Mufeed (classical twelver) says shias have differed. Al-Khomeini says its an essential belief.

15 minutes ago, Cool said:

lol, So Musa (عليه السلام) have excelled over Khizr and Khizr (عليه السلام) excelled over Musa (عليه السلام) in some aspects (if not over all). 

Thanks for proving yourself wrong!

? I clearly quoted the hadith about them having different parts of knowledge

16 minutes ago, Cool said:

I am surprised by his statement. Shia view of about intra-prophetic excellence is not usually discussed except the fact that Ulul Azm Prophets are superior. 

The case of Khizr (عليه السلام) is so unique that my brother should have expressed his opinion with caution because we have reports in our books that Khizr (عليه السلام) even offered condolence to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) after the wafat of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

The reality of Khizr (عليه السلام) is partially known, very much of his personality is still ghayb for us. 

Another strange statement by you. Giving condolences to Ali and having a lot unknown about you makes you greater than Ulul Azm.

18 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

And who is going to decide who among prophets is Ulul Azm? We or Allah? 

 

Allah. I think everyone believes that. The fact that the number 5 isn't in the Quran doesn't mean Allah didn't decide that these five are Ulul Azm?

20 minutes ago, Cool said:

lol, the verse says "Abdan min Ibadena", every abd is not a Prophet necessarily. There was a person with علم من الكتاب in the palace of Prophet Suleman (عليه السلام) who brought the throne within the blink of an eye. That was also an Abd of Allah. 

The person in Aal e Fir'on who was hiding his faith, was also an Abd of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

The point is none of this makes them better than Prophets. That is why it is not related. 

21 minutes ago, Cool said:

Ali (عليه السلام) is not only an Abd of Allah but he is also famous as yadullah, aynullah, lisanullah etc. And is also emerged as nafs e rasool according to the verse of Mubahila. 

Of course Shias will say these statements, "Ali is the hands of Allah", "metaphorically". If we open up this door someone can just say he is Allah and claim it is a metaphor.

In reality, Ali would never open up a door like this. Let alone have a khutbah like this on the mimbar,

24 minutes ago, Cool said:

As usual, your creed always twist the meanings. 

ذالك الكتاب لا ريب فيه

Which kitab is being mentioned here? Quran or earlier scripture? 

و من عنده علم الكتاب 

Which kitab is being mentioned here? Quran or earlier scriptures? 

 

You called a claim I said funny while it was another Quran verse. You respond with this as if that saves you.

If you want to know what Kitab means please check Tafseer of Tabatabi he has a nice explanation. Kitab can mean many different things. Depending on the context like the verse I quoted. 

29 minutes ago, Cool said:

Where you got the idea that I want to prove you "my aqeedah" from your books? 

An alleged ahad report as per your claim doen't mean we have also a single report about Imam Mehdi ajtf.

You are quoting Sunni hadiths as evidence against Sunnis. You are trying to prove your Aqeedah from Sunni books.

I never said Mahdi hadiths are Mutawatir?

31 minutes ago, Cool said:

lol, why don't you just look at the question asked from Musa (عليه السلام)? 

And then look at the chapter heading lol. 

 

You really are Ibn Hisham or Ibn Malik. Read the Arabic there is no confusion. The link between the title and hadith is clear.

32 minutes ago, Cool said:

 

lol, It is you who are saying this about your books and rejecting your scholars. 

 

The book is literally called

الأسرار المرفوعة في الأخبار الموضوعة

24 minutes ago, Cool said:

You and your Ibn Taymiyyah both need to learn Arabic. Please tell me the meaning of انفسنا، the pronoun نا points towards whom? 

The 1st person plural possessive pronoun for abna'ana, nisa'ana, anfusana, points toward whom? 

 

It is plural. The same way Nisa'ana is plural. Does that contradict only Fatima? What are you getting at.

12 minutes ago, Cool said:

And what do you think the abna'ana & nisa'ana were people without the nafs? lol 

So why is there anfusana? And that "anfusana" is because of the direct command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Even though there are words like تَعَالَوْا and نَدْعُ are there too. 

 

So they were all the "nafs"?

 

والله أعلى وأعلم

[In Gods Name]

On 9/19/2023 at 1:54 PM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Salam,

 

An essential Shia belief is that Imams are greater than Prophets and Messengers apart from Our Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  For example, we see Al-Khomeini say:
 

Waaesalem

I just want to correct you here politely. It is a popular belief but it is not an essential Shia belief.  Shaykh Toosi is one of the biggest Shia scholars of all time and this is what he said:

And Shaykh at-Tusi says in his Risalat al-Ashr:
عن قوله في التفاضل بين اولى العزم من الرسل وبين ائمتنا عليهم السلام أجمعين، فإني وجدت أقوال أصحابنا في ذلك مختلفة. الجواب: هذه المسائل فيها خلاف بين أصحابنا، منهم من يفضل الائمة على جميع الانبياء عليهم السلام، ومنهم من يفضل عليهم اولو العزم، ومنهم من يفضلهم عليهم، والاخبار مختلفة والعقل لا يدل على شئ منه، وينبغي أن نتوقف في ذلك، ونجوز جميع ذلك.
"The Shaykh is basically saying that he found different riwayaat to support the various positions, and that the `aql cannot prove it either way, and that he personally does tawaqquf on the issue, and that it is permissible to hold onto any opinion." Nima translation 

I also do Tawaqquf, i hold no view, but if i did i would side with the view that none are greater than the ululazm prophets, but i would however leave the answer entirely to Allah. 

[In Gods Name]

2 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

A lot of the Shia claims and doubts didn't exist at the time of classical scholars. Hence you will find only later scholars talking about them. For example, you will see some claims that the first to address was Ibn Taymiyyah.

 

Do you accept now that many of our classical scholars did not believe imams were better than prophets? they did tawaqquf , some even said no prophets were superior. 

[In Gods Name]

6 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Salam upon those who follow guidance 

Weak hadiths that you seem to only quote.

 

May Allah curse who curses the Sahaba. If you can't debate without L'aan then it shows how weak your points are. Quran Surah Al-Hadid verse 10

وَمَا لَكُمْ أَلَّا تُنفِقُوا۟ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ وَلِلَّهِ مِيرَٰثُ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٰتِ وَٱلْأَرْضِ ۚ لَا يَسْتَوِى مِنكُم مَّنْ أَنفَقَ مِن قَبْلِ ٱلْفَتْحِ وَقَـٰتَلَ ۚ أُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ أَعْظَمُ دَرَجَةًۭ مِّنَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَنفَقُوا۟ مِنۢ بَعْدُ وَقَـٰتَلُوا۟ ۚ وَكُلًّۭا وَعَدَ ٱللَّهُ ٱلْحُسْنَىٰ ۚ وَٱللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرٌۭ ١٠

And why do you not spend in the cause of Allāh while to Allāh belongs the heritage of the heavens and the earth? Not equal among you are those who spent before the conquest [of Makkah] and fought [and those who did so after it]. Those are greater in degree than they who spent afterwards and fought. But to all Allāh has promised the best [reward]. And Allāh, of what you do, is Aware.

 

Do you also send L'aan on Aqeel who stood with Muawiyah? Or is it a matter of desires?

Sorry someone insulted a holy symbol of your group.

If we are told not to curse idols, we should be careful how we talk about this.

"And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do" Soorah anam

[Abu_Bakr_]

 

1 hour ago, In Gods Name said:

Waaesalem

I just want to correct you here politely. It is a popular belief but it is not an essential Shia belief.  Shaykh Toosi is one of the biggest Shia scholars of all time and this is what he said:

And Shaykh at-Tusi says in his Risalat al-Ashr:
عن قوله في التفاضل بين اولى العزم من الرسل وبين ائمتنا عليهم السلام أجمعين، فإني وجدت أقوال أصحابنا في ذلك مختلفة. الجواب: هذه المسائل فيها خلاف بين أصحابنا، منهم من يفضل الائمة على جميع الانبياء عليهم السلام، ومنهم من يفضل عليهم اولو العزم، ومنهم من يفضلهم عليهم، والاخبار مختلفة والعقل لا يدل على شئ منه، وينبغي أن نتوقف في ذلك، ونجوز جميع ذلك.
"The Shaykh is basically saying that he found different riwayaat to support the various positions, and that the `aql cannot prove it either way, and that he personally does tawaqquf on the issue, and that it is permissible to hold onto any opinion." Nima translation 

I also do Tawaqquf, i hold no view, but if i did i would side with the view that none are greater than the ululazm prophets, but i would however leave the answer entirely to Allah. 

Salam

Ok I had seen the quote of Al-Mufeed but wasn't aware of this quote. My claim was taken from a quote from Al-Khomeini.

49 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

Do you accept now that many of our classical scholars did not believe imams were better than prophets? they did tawaqquf , some even said no prophets were superior. 

Yes that is clear. However, discussing a famous position is still important to a level. Hence why I made the posts. I believe now that both sides have said what they want this topic is some what over.

 

Salam

[Ibn Tayyar]

6 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

One statement can be used by different people to mean two completely different meanings. I and you know I am debating shias who take this statement to mean something completely different to what a Sunni means by saying it.

Al-Alameen linguistically is general. Although as I have said previously in this post it can be specified with evidence. All Sunni scholars including Al-Baghawai will agree Prophets are the best of creation. He clearly doesn't mean what Shias here are trying to say. 

Al-Baghawi's belief is irrelevant here, we are talking about the meaning of one word here, which as I proved can be subject to different meanings. 

All Al-Baghawi is saying is that "al-ameen" means "in their time". That is all, he never added anything more, the rest is from you.

Your original assertion was that "al-alameen" was general and that the Shi'i tafsir was just plain wrong, but now you face the problem that it isn't just the Shi'a that have this interpretation, and so now you are trying to explain his view when he didn't offer anything more.

6 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

However, what he is saying is that these Prophets aren't better than our Prophet for example. That is what he means by their time. The evidence to make this exception, if we take this understanding, is clear hence allowed.

It can be linked to people of other times as the reason each was the best of their time is Prophethood. Hence showing Prophethood is the highest maqam. 

(Note: Let us say I am mistaken and this is really his view. It is possible for someone to believe the Prophets are the best of creation and yet claim the evidence is something apart from this verse.) 

Alhamdullah

If "al-alameen" is specified to a certain time period, then that tafdheel is irrelevant to those of different times, including our Prophet (saww).

And let us say that the reason the mufasireen came up with this conclusion is because they will try to avoid a contradiction between those Prophets having tafdheel over "alalameen" meaning "all times" and the Prophet (saww) being better than all Prophets. I ask, why did they do that? Because of external evidence from other texts which prove he is better than all other creation.

And so many Imamis will do the same thing, by relying on external texts which prove the higher status of the Imams (عليه السلام), and simply extend that to mean the Imams (عليه السلام) aswell.

As for your assertion that it can be linked to other times, that is absurd. Yes, they may have been the best in their times due to Prophethood, but that is because everyone else that existed in their time was a fallible person of no special status. If the Imams (عليه السلام) had existed in their times, and the Verse said what it said, you would have a point, but that is not the case. 

As for your finishing note, I'm not sure what you said. 

Edited September 23 by Ibn Tayyar

[Ibn Tayyar]

1 hour ago, In Gods Name said:

Waaesalem

I just want to correct you here politely. It is a popular belief but it is not an essential Shia belief.  Shaykh Toosi is one of the biggest Shia scholars of all time and this is what he said:

And Shaykh at-Tusi says in his Risalat al-Ashr:
عن قوله في التفاضل بين اولى العزم من الرسل وبين ائمتنا عليهم السلام أجمعين، فإني وجدت أقوال أصحابنا في ذلك مختلفة. الجواب: هذه المسائل فيها خلاف بين أصحابنا، منهم من يفضل الائمة على جميع الانبياء عليهم السلام، ومنهم من يفضل عليهم اولو العزم، ومنهم من يفضلهم عليهم، والاخبار مختلفة والعقل لا يدل على شئ منه، وينبغي أن نتوقف في ذلك، ونجوز جميع ذلك.
"The Shaykh is basically saying that he found different riwayaat to support the various positions, and that the `aql cannot prove it either way, and that he personally does tawaqquf on the issue, and that it is permissible to hold onto any opinion." Nima translation 

I also do Tawaqquf, i hold no view, but if i did i would side with the view that none are greater than the ululazm prophets, but i would however leave the answer entirely to Allah. 

What is considered an "essential belief" has differed from scholar to scholar and time period to time period. Some of the early companions may have not even believed in isma.

While Al-Tusi (rah) did tawaqquf, Al-Saduq (rah) claimed it is wajib to believe the Prophet (saww) and the Imams (عليه السلام) after him are the greatest of creations. 

Your personal beliefs should not be based on the sayings of the ulama, both past and present, but rather you should read the evidences from our books and come to a conclusion if you can. 

1 hour ago, In Gods Name said:

Sorry someone insulted a holy symbol of your group.

If we are told not to curse idols, we should be careful how we talk about this.

"And do not insult those they invoke other than Allah , lest they insult Allah in enmity without knowledge. Thus We have made pleasing to every community their deeds. Then to their Lord is their return, and He will inform them about what they used to do" Soorah anam

La'an is not insulting and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), his Angels and his Prophets (عليه السلام) have cursed those who deserved to be cursed in the Holy Qur'an, and so did the Prophet (saww) and the Imams (عليه السلام) in our hadiths.

Furthermore, insulting those who deserve to be insulted is not haram, and that is the position of many fuqaha across different sects (including ours), and the Verse isn't telling you what you think it says.

Many mufasireen from both sides took the meaning to be that the believers should refrain from sabb (insulting) of the idols of the mushrikeen as it will lead to the sabb (insulting) of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), not that the idols themselves aren't deserving of insult.

If you are interesting on the views of our scholars, both past and present, aswell as authentic narrations supporting their views, then read the following thread;

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235031376-the-controversial-hadith-of-dawood-bin-sarhan/

And especially read the answers from brothers Ibn Al-Hussain and Islamic Salvation, and you will see the conclusion of the scholars, both past and present.

However, I do not wish to derail this thread into another topic, so I won't comment further on this issue beyond what is mentioned. 

[Abu_Bakr_]

4 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

And let us say that the reason the mufasireen came up with this conclusion is because they will try to avoid a contradiction between those Prophets having tafdheel over "alalameen" meaning "all times" and the Prophet (saww) being better than all Prophets. I ask, why did they do that? Because of external evidence from other texts which prove he is better than all other creation.

And so many Imamis will do the same thing, by relying on external texts which prove the higher status of the Imams (عليه السلام), and simply extend that to mean the Imams (عليه السلام) aswell.

This is the whole debate and why I mentioned the Ibrahim verse. The evidence put forth by the Shia is very weak. Not many tried to discuss with me on it. I have said multiple times in this post that such a claim needs and would be possible with evidence. Shias have mostly not commented on the Ibrahim verse and not brought any evidence.

4 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

As for your assertion that it can be linked to other times, that is absurd. Yes, they may have been the best in their times due to Prophethood, but that is because everyone else that existed in their time was a fallible person of no special status. If the Imams (عليه السلام) had existed in their times, and the Verse said what it said, you would have a point, but that is not the case. 

 

It can be linked as when Allah mentions the best of the times he mentions Prophets and says it is because of their Prophethood. Imamah isnt something specific to this Ummah according to shias. Hence why it disproves that.

[Ibn Tayyar]

11 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

This is the whole debate and why I mentioned the Ibrahim verse. The evidence put forth by the Shia is very weak. Not many tried to discuss with me on it. I have said multiple times in this post that such a claim needs and would be possible with evidence. Shias have mostly not commented on the Ibrahim verse and not brought any evidence.

That is another thread. This thread is about whether this Verse can be used to prove that Prophethood is the greatest maqam, and a maqam above Imamah, and I showed you that to come to that conclusion would depend on how you interpret the Verse, and that the mufasireen offered differing interpetations.

Meaning, the Verse was not as clear-cut and unambiguous as you thought it was.

19 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

It can be linked as when Allah mentions the best of the times he mentions Prophets and says it is because of their Prophethood. Imamah isnt something specific to this Ummah according to shias. Hence why it disproves that.

And that was in "their time", in our view, and the Imams didn't exist with them, in fact the only Prophet that existed in the same time as 3 of the Imams was better than all of them. The relevance with the other Prophets can only be made with the original tafsir you gave when you started the thread, which is why you originally rejected the tafsir of "al-alameen" meaning "their time", but since we believe in that tafsir, and it is shared by some of your mufasireen, your point doesn't stand my brother.

In all sects, the maqam of risala is higher than nubuwah. And the risala of ulul azm is of a higher maqam than the risala of a non ulul azm. And so while Prophethood may be the reason why they are better than the rest of the people, that doesn't mean that there wasn't tafdheel amongst the Prophets themselves even in the same Verse(s) you quoted, with some of them holding a maqam that wasn't available to other Prophets. We would say that a Prophet who is also an Imam is of a higher status than a Prophet who is not an Imam - based on external evidence -, just as you and we would say that a Prophet who is a Messenger is also of a higher status than a Prophet who is not a Messenger.

You started a thread and claimed the Shi'i evidence is weak based on the Verse of Ibrahim (عليه السلام), but so far your evidence hasn't been strong my brother. And as you can tell, I haven't really made any arguments on whether the status of Imamah is higher or not, I have simply critiqued your use of this Verse.

This is my final post on this thread, as I have said what I believe is to be enough. Thank you for a decent and respectable conversation.

[Cool]

12 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Allah. I think everyone believes that. The fact that the number 5 isn't in the Quran doesn't mean Allah didn't decide that these five are Ulul Azm?

Problem is putting a limit on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by stating that "only these 5" are Ulul Azm.

Anyway, I am making it short by ignoring many things you stated in your response. It seems nothing but debate for the sake of debate. 

Just wanting to provide more evidences to you from your books about the ayah e mubahila. Here they are:

روى الواحدي النيسابوري:

أخبرني عبد الرحمن بن الحسن الحافظ فيما أذن لي في روايته حدثنا أبو حفص عمر ابن أحمد الواعظ، حدثنا عبد الرحمن بن سليمان بن الأشعث، حدثنا يحيى ابن حاتم العسكري، حدثنا بشر بن مهران، حدثنا محمد بن دينار، عن داود بن أبي هند، عن الشعبي، عن جابر بن عبد الله قال:

قدم وفد أهل نجران على النبي (ص) العاقب والسيد، فدعاهما إلى الاسلام، فقالا أسلمنا قبلك، قال كذبتما إن شئتما أخبرتكما بما يمنعكما من الاسلام: فقالا: هات أنبئنا، قال: حب الصليب، وشرب الخمر، وأكل لحم الخنزير، فدعاهما إلى الملاعنة، فوعداه على أن يغادياه بالغداة فغدا رسول الله (ص) فأخذ بيد علي وفاطمة وبيد الحسن والحسين، ثم أرسل إليهما فأبيا أن يجيبا، فأقرا له بالخراج فقال النبي (ص) : والذي بعثني بالحق لو فعلا لمطر الوادي نارا.

قال جابر: فنزلت فيهم هذه الآية - فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْاْ نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءنَا وَأَبْنَاءكُمْ وَنِسَاءنَا وَنِسَاءكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وأَنفُسَكُمْ - قال الشعبي: أبناءنا: الحسن والحسين، ونساءنا: فاطمة، وأنفسنا علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنهم

الواحدي النيسابوري (أبي الحسن علي بن أحمد)، أسباب النزول، القاهرة، مؤسسة الحلبي، 1388/ 1968، ص67 - 68.

Here is another:

روى مسلم النيسابوري بسنده:

"عن عامر بن سعد بن أبى وقاص عن أبيه قال:

أمر معاوية بن أبي سفيان سعدا فقال ما منعك أن تسب أبا التراب فقال أما ما ذكرت ثلاثا قالهن له رسول الله (ص) فلن أسبه لأن تكون لى واحدة منهن أحب إلي من حمر النعم سمعت رسول الله (ص) يقول له خلفه فى بعض مغازيه فقال له على يا رسول الله خلفتني مع النساء والصبيان فقال له رسول الله (ص) أما ترضى أن تكون منى بمنزلة هارون من موسى إلا أنه لا نبوة بعدي.

وسمعته يقول يوم خيبر لأعطين الراية رجلا يحب الله ورسوله ويحبه الله ورسوله. قال فتطاولنا لها فقال ادعوا لى عليا فأتى به أرمد فبصق فى عينه ودفع الراية إليه ففتح الله عليه.

ولما نزلت هذه الآية " فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْاْ نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءنَا وَأَبْنَاءكُمْ " دعا رسول الله (ص) عليا وفاطمة وحسنا وحسينا فقال: اللهم هؤلاء أهلي" 

القشيري النيسابوري (أبي الحسين مسلم بن الحجاج بن مسلم)، الجامع الصحيح، بيروت، دار الجيل، لا ت، ج7، ص120 حديث 6373.

Yet another with grading:

روى الحاكم النيسابوري بسنده وصحّحه الذهبي في التلخيص:

عن عامر بن سعد عن أبيه قال: لما نزلت ذهه الآية نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءنَا وَأَبْنَاءكُمْ وَنِسَاءنَا وَنِسَاءكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وأَنفُسَكُمْ دعا رسول الله (ص) عليا وفاطمة وحسنا وحسينا رضي الله عنهم فقال: اللهم هؤلاء أهلي.

الحاكم النسابوري: هذا حديث صحيح على شرط الشيخين و لم يخرجاه.

الذهبي في التلخيص: على شرط البخاري ومسلم

الحاكم النيسابوري (أبي عبد الله محمد بن عبد الله)، المستدرك على الصحيحين تعليقات الذهبي في التلخيص، تحقيق مصطفى عبد القادر عطا، الطبعة الأولى، 1411/ 1990، ج2، ص163 حديث 4719.

Yet another;

روى أبو عيسى الترمذي بسندٍ صحيح:

حدثنا قتيبة حدثنا حاتم بن إسماعيل عن بكير بن مسمار هو مدني ثقة عن عامر بن سعيد بن أبي وقاص عن أبيه قال:

لما أنزل الله هذه الآية نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءنَا وَأَبْنَاءكُمْ دعا رسول الله (ص) عليا و فاطمة وحسناً وحسينا، فقال: اللهم هؤلاء أهلي.

قال أبو عيسى: هذا حديث حسن صحيح.

قال الشيخ الألباني: صحيح الإسناد 

Yet another by Suyuti:

أخرج الحاكم وصححه وابن مردويه وأبو نعيم في الدلائل عن جابر قال:

قدم على النبي (ص) العاقب والسيد فدعا هما إلى الاسلام فقالا أسلمنا يا محمد قال كذبتما ان شئتما أخبرتكما بما يمنعكما من الاسلام قالا فهات قال حب الصليب وشرب الخمر وأكل لحم الخنزير.

قال جابر فدعا هما إلى الملاعنة فوعداه إلى الغد فغدا رسول الله (ص) وأخذ بيد علي وفاطمة والحسن والحسين ثم أرسل إليهما فأبيا أن يجيباه واقرا له، فقال: والذي بعثني بالحق لو فعلا لا مطر الوادي عليهما نارا قال جابر فيهم نزلت (تَعَالَوْاْ نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءنَا وَأَبْنَاءكُمْ) الآية، قال: جابر أنفسنا وأنفسكم: رسول الله (ص) وعلي، وأبناءنا: الحسن والحسين، ونساءنا: فاطمة، 

السيوطي (جلال الدين)، الدر المنثور في التفسير بالمأثور، بيروت، دار المعرفة

Furthermore, Fakhruddin al-Razi mentioned another interesting argument from a person he mentioned as المعلم الشيعي lol :

(وأنفسنا وأنفسكم) * وليس المراد بقوله * (وأنفسنا) * نفس محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم لأن الإنسان لا يدعو نفسه بل المراد به غيره، وأجمعوا على أن ذلك الغير كان علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه، فدلت الآية على أن نفس علي هي نفس محمد،

(Note: I have quoted this reference only to show an argument highlighted above)

And that العلم اثنة عشرية further provide a reference of another hadith from the books i.e., :

ثم الإجماع دل على أن محمدا عليه السلام كان أفضل من سائر الأنبياء عليهم السلام فيلزم أن يكون علي أفضل من سائر الأنبياء، فهذا وجه الاستدلال بظاهر هذه الآية، ثم قال: ويؤيد الاستدلال بهذه الآية، الحديث المقبول عند الموافق والمخالف، وهو قوله عليه السلام: " من أراد أن يرى آدم في علمه، ونوحا في طاعته، وإبراهيم في خلته، وموسى في هيبته، وعيسى في صفوته، فلينظر إلى علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه " فالحديث دل على أنه اجتمع فيه ما كان متفرقا فيهم، وذلك يدل على أن عليا رضي الله عنه أفضل من جميع الأنبياء سوى محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم

I would also like to quote the sources of this hadith here:

ياقوت الحموي (626هـ) في ترجمة محمّد بن عبد الله المفجع:

" وله قصيدته ذا الأشباه، وسميت بذات الأشباه لقصده فيما ذكره من الخبر الذي رواه عبد الرزاق عن معمر عن الزهري عن سعيد بن المسيب عن أبي هريرة قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم وهو في محفل من أصحابه: (إن تنظروا إلى آدم في علمه، ونوح في همه، وإبراهيم في خلقه، وموسى في مناجاته، وعيسى في سنه، ومحمد في هديه وحلمه، فانظر إلى هذا المقبل). فتطاول الناس فإذا هو علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام"

الحموي الرومي (شهاب الدين أبو عبد الله ياقوت بن عبد الله)، معجم الأدباء إرشاد الأريب إلى معرفة الأديب، تحقيق إحسان عباس، الطبعة الأولى، بيروت، دار الغرب الإسلامي، 1993م، ج5، ص2342 ترجمة رقم 2336.

المحدّث أحمد بن الصديق المغربي:

قال ابن بطة: ثنا أبو ذر أحمد بن الباغندي، أنا أبي، عن مسعر بن يحيى، ثنا شريك، عن أبي إسحاق، عن أبيه عن ابن عباس قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم: من أراد أن ينظر إلى آدم في علمه وإلى نوح في حكمته وإلى إبراهيم في حلمه فلينظر إلى علي.

مسعر بن يحيى الهدي ذكره الذهبي في الميزان وقال: لا أعرفه وأتى بخبر منكر، ثم ذكر هذا الحديث، وقد عرفت أن النكارة عند الذهبي هي فضل علي بن أبي طالب

الحاكم الحسكاني:

أخبرناه جدي الشيخ أبو نصر بقراءتي عليه من أصل سماعه غير مرة حدثنا أبو عمرو محمد بن جعفر المذكي إملاءا، قال: حدثني محمد بن حمدون بن عيسى الهاشمي قال: حدثني جدي قال: حدثنا عبيد الله بن موسى قال: حدثنا أبو عثمان الأزدي عن أبي راشد: عن أبي الحمراء قال:

كنا عند النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم فأقبل علي فقال رسول الله: من سره أن ينظر إلى آدم في علمه، ونوح في فهمه وإبراهيم في حلمه فلينظر إلى علي بن أبي طالب

قال ابن عساكر الدمشقي:

أخبرنا أبو القاسم زاهر بن طاهر قال قرئ على سعيد بن محمد البحيري أنا أبو نصر النعمان بن محمد الجرجاني أنا أبو جعفر أحمد بن محمد بن سعيد نا محمد بن مسلم بن وارة نا عبيد الله بن موسى العنسي نا أبو عمرو الأزدي عن أبي راشد الحبراني عن أبي الحمراء قال:

قال رسول الله (ص) من أراد أن ينظر إلى ادم في علمه وإلى نوح في فهمه وإلى إبراهيم في حلمه وإلى يحيى بن زكريا في زهده وإلى موسى بن عمران في بطشه فلينظر إلى علي بن أبي طالب

قال الموفق الخوارزمي:

وبهذا الاسناد الشيخ الزاهد الحافظ أبو الحسن علي بن أحمد العاصمي الخوارزمي أخبرنا شيخ القضاة إسماعيل بن أحمد الواعظ عن أحمد بن الحسين هذا البيهقي، أخبرنا أبو عبد الله - الحافظ في التاريخ - حدثنا أبو جعفر محمد بن أحمد بن سعيد حدثني محمد بن مسلم بن وارة حدثني عبد الله بن موسى العبسي حدثنا أبو عمرو الأزدي عن أبي راشد الحبراني عن أبي الحمراء قال:

قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: من أراد ان ينظر إلى آدم في علمه، والى نوح في فهمه، وإلى يحيى بن زكريا في زهده، والى موسى بن عمران في بطشه، فلينظر إلى علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام.

قال أحمد بن الحسين البيهقي: لم أكتبه إلّا بهذا الإسناد، والله أعلم

قال محمد بن طلحة الشافعي:

ما رواه الإمام البيهقي -رضي الله عنه- في كتابه المصنف في فضائل الصحابة يرفعه بسنده إلى رسول الله (ص) أنه قال:

من أراد أن ينظر إلى آدم في علمه وإلى نوح في تقواه وإلى إبراهيم في حلمه وإلى موسى في هيبته وإلى عيسى في عبادته فلينظر إلى علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام

قال القندوزي الحنفي:

أخرج أحمد بن حنبل في مسنده، وأحمد البيهقي في صحيحه عن أبي الحمراء قال:

قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم من أراد أن ينظر إلى آدم في علمه وإلى نوح في عزمه وإلى إبراهيم في حلمه، وإلى موسى في هيبته، وإلى عيسى في زهده، فلينظر إلى علي بن أبي طالب

قال محب الدين الطبري:

ذكر تشبيه علي بخمسة من الأنبياء عليهم السلام

عن أبي الحمراء قال: قال رسول الله (ص): "من أراد أن ينظر إلى آدم في علمه وإلى نوح في فهمه وإلى إبراهيم في حلمه وإلى يحيى بن زكريا في زهده وإلى موسى في بطشه فلينظر إلى علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه". أخرجه أبو الخير الحاكمي.

وعن ابن عباس رضي الله عنهما قال قال رسول الله (ص): "من أراد أن ينظر إلى إبراهيم في حلمه وإلى نوح في حكمه وإلى يوسف في جماله فلينظر إلى علي بن أبي طالب". أخرجه الملا في سيرته

So it is proved from your books that Ali (عليه السلام) participated in mubahila in capacity of "nafs" not "son" as you claimed. 

Furthermore, it is also proved here that the 5 participated in the mubahila, are the Ahlul Bayt as many ahadith mentions اللهم هؤلاء أهلي.

Lastly, for these Ahlul Bayt, it is said by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) انهم مني و انا منهم and further more words are also there:

روى أحمد بن حنبل في مسنده (2/442) بسند حسن عن أبي هريرة قال نظر النبي (صلى الله عليه وآله) الى علي والحسن والحسين وفاطمة فقال: (أنا حرب لمن حاربكم وسلم لمن سالمكم). وجهة التحسين في الحديث ان تليد بن سليمان أحد رجال السند وثّقه العجلي ولم ير أحمد به بأساً وأمّا بقيّة رجال السند فرجال الصحيح. انظر (معرفة الثقات 1/257، مجمع الزوائد 9/169).
وأيضاً رواه الترمذي في سننه (5/360/ الحديث 3962) بسند صحيح ينتهي الى زيد بن أرقم، ورواه الحاكم في (المستدرك على الصحيحين 3/161) وقال: هذا حديث حسن من حديث أبي عبد الله أحمد بن حنبل عن تليدبن سليمان.. ثم ذكر له شاهداً بلفظ: (أنا حرب لمن حرابتم وسلم لمن سالمتم..) .

[Muslim2010]

On 9/23/2023 at 4:40 PM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

May Allah curse who curses the Sahaba.

"The Quran addresses the companions in three tones ie praising, warning and taunting that they may turn from the religion, thus divides them into three groups (as already quoted above):

1-    The First group addressed by Quran as believers, and they are righteous. Quran praises them.

All Muslims respect them as Quran praises them.

2-    The Second Group addressed by Quran as believers and they are not sincere in their actions. Quran warns them.

3.    The Third Group addressed by Quran who are hypocrites (Munafiqeen) among sahaba they may turn away from religion. Quran taunts them".

wasalam

Edited September 24 by Muslim2010

[Abu_Bakr_]

Salam, probably my final post on this 

11 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

That is another thread. This thread is about whether this Verse can be used to prove that Prophethood is the greatest maqam, and a maqam above Imamah, and I showed you that to come to that conclusion would depend on how you interpret the Verse, and that the mufasireen offered differing interpetations.

Meaning, the Verse was not as clear-cut and unambiguous as you thought it was.

 

I mean I made the post and made sure to include both. Maybe it wasn't clear that it was about both verses and that would be on me. I have made the claim that these different interpretations do not contradict the overall point.

11 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

In all sects, the maqam of risala is higher than nubuwah. And the risala of ulul azm is of a higher maqam than the risala of a non ulul azm. And so while Prophethood may be the reason why they are better than the rest of the people, that doesn't mean that there wasn't tafdheel amongst the Prophets themselves even in the same Verse(s) you quoted, with some of them holding a maqam that wasn't available to other Prophets. We would say that a Prophet who is also an Imam is of a higher status than a Prophet who is not an Imam - based on external evidence -, just as you and we would say that a Prophet who is a Messenger is also of a higher status than a Prophet who is not a Messenger.

It makes the assumption that there was no Imams that weren't Prophets at any of these times. Also, leads to the problem that Shias have when they say the 12 Imams who only had Imamah are better than Prophets who had Prophethood and Imamah.

6 hours ago, Cool said:

 

روى الواحدي النيسابوري:

أخبرني عبد الرحمن بن الحسن الحافظ فيما أذن لي في روايته حدثنا أبو حفص عمر ابن أحمد الواعظ، حدثنا عبد الرحمن بن سليمان بن الأشعث، حدثنا يحيى ابن حاتم العسكري، حدثنا بشر بن مهران، حدثنا محمد بن دينار، عن داود بن أبي هند، عن الشعبي، عن جابر بن عبد الله قال:

قدم وفد أهل نجران على النبي (ص) العاقب والسيد، فدعاهما إلى الاسلام، فقالا أسلمنا قبلك، قال كذبتما إن شئتما أخبرتكما بما يمنعكما من الاسلام: فقالا: هات أنبئنا، قال: حب الصليب، وشرب الخمر، وأكل لحم الخنزير، فدعاهما إلى الملاعنة، فوعداه على أن يغادياه بالغداة فغدا رسول الله (ص) فأخذ بيد علي وفاطمة وبيد الحسن والحسين، ثم أرسل إليهما فأبيا أن يجيبا، فأقرا له بالخراج فقال النبي (ص) : والذي بعثني بالحق لو فعلا لمطر الوادي نارا.

قال جابر: فنزلت فيهم هذه الآية - فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْاْ نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءنَا وَأَبْنَاءكُمْ وَنِسَاءنَا وَنِسَاءكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وأَنفُسَكُمْ - قال الشعبي: أبناءنا: الحسن والحسين، ونساءنا: فاطمة، وأنفسنا علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنهم

الواحدي النيسابوري (أبي الحسن علي بن أحمد)، أسباب النزول، القاهرة، مؤسسة الحلبي، 1388/ 1968، ص67 - 68.

 

Ibn Kathir:

وهكذا رواه الحاكم في مستدركه ، عن علي بن عيسى ، عن أحمد بن محمد الأزهري عن علي بن حجر ، عن علي بن مسهر ، عن داود بن أبي هند ، به بمعناه . ثم قال : صحيح على شرط مسلم ، ولم يخرجاه .
هكذا قال : وقد رواه أبو داود الطيالسي ، عن شعبة ، عن المغيرة عن الشعبي مرسلا وهذا أصح 

 

This is also mentioned twice in your post, just with different references.

6 hours ago, Cool said:

 

روى مسلم النيسابوري بسنده:

"عن عامر بن سعد بن أبى وقاص عن أبيه قال:

أمر معاوية بن أبي سفيان سعدا فقال ما منعك أن تسب أبا التراب فقال أما ما ذكرت ثلاثا قالهن له رسول الله (ص) فلن أسبه لأن تكون لى واحدة منهن أحب إلي من حمر النعم سمعت رسول الله (ص) يقول له خلفه فى بعض مغازيه فقال له على يا رسول الله خلفتني مع النساء والصبيان فقال له رسول الله (ص) أما ترضى أن تكون منى بمنزلة هارون من موسى إلا أنه لا نبوة بعدي.

وسمعته يقول يوم خيبر لأعطين الراية رجلا يحب الله ورسوله ويحبه الله ورسوله. قال فتطاولنا لها فقال ادعوا لى عليا فأتى به أرمد فبصق فى عينه ودفع الراية إليه ففتح الله عليه.

ولما نزلت هذه الآية " فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْاْ نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءنَا وَأَبْنَاءكُمْ " دعا رسول الله (ص) عليا وفاطمة وحسنا وحسينا فقال: اللهم هؤلاء أهلي" 

القشيري النيسابوري (أبي الحسين مسلم بن الحجاج بن مسلم)، الجامع الصحيح، بيروت، دار الجيل، لا ت، ج7، ص120 حديث 6373.

 

May Allah be Pleased with Ali. I never denied any of this? Merely said that "nafs" =/= Ali.

6 hours ago, Cool said:

 

Furthermore, Fakhruddin al-Razi mentioned another interesting argument from a person he mentioned as المعلم الشيعي lol :

(وأنفسنا وأنفسكم) * وليس المراد بقوله * (وأنفسنا) * نفس محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم لأن الإنسان لا يدعو نفسه بل المراد به غيره، وأجمعوا على أن ذلك الغير كان علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه، فدلت الآية على أن نفس علي هي نفس محمد،

 

He quotes him (mentions his actual name btw) and refutes him

 المسألة الخامسة: كان في الري رجل يقال له: محمود بن الحسن الحمصي، وكان معلم الاثني عشرية، وكان يزعم أن عليا رضي الله عنه أفضل من جميع الأنبياء سوى محمد عليه السلام، قال: والذي يدل عليه قوله تعالى: * (وأنفسنا وأنفسكم) * وليس المراد بقوله * (وأنفسنا) * نفس محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم لأن الإنسان لا يدعو نفسه بل المراد به غيره، وأجمعوا على أن ذلك الغير كان علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه، فدلت الآية على أن نفس علي هي نفس محمد، ولا يمكن أن يكون المراد منه، أن هذه النفس هي عين تلك النفس، فالمراد أن هذه النفس مثل تلك النفس، وذلك يقتضي الاستواء في جميع الوجوه، ترك العمل بهذا العموم في حق النبوة، وفي حق الفضل لقيام الدلائل على أن محمدا عليه السلام كان نبيا وما كان علي كذلك، ولانعقاد الإجماع على أن محمدا عليه السلام كان أفضل من علي رضي الله عنه، فيبقى فيما وراءه معمولا به، ثم الإجماع دل على أن محمدا عليه السلام كان أفضل من سائر الأنبياء عليهم السلام فيلزم أن يكون علي أفضل من سائر الأنبياء، فهذا وجه الاستدلال بظاهر هذه الآية، ثم قال: ويؤيد الاستدلال بهذه الآية، الحديث المقبول عند الموافق والمخالف، وهو قوله عليه السلام: " من أراد أن يرى آدم في علمه، ونوحا في طاعته، وإبراهيم في خلته، وموسى في هيبته، وعيسى في صفوته، فلينظر إلى علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه " فالحديث دل على أنه اجتمع فيه ما كان متفرقا فيهم، وذلك يدل على أن عليا رضي الله عنه أفضل من جميع الأنبياء سوى محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم، وأما سائر الشيعة فقد كانوا قديما وحديثا يستدلون بهذه الآية على أن عليا رضي الله عنه مثل نفس محمد عليه السلام إلا فيما خصه الدليل، وكان نفس محمد أفضل من الصحابة رضوان الله عليهم، فوجب أن يكون نفس علي أفضل أيضا من سائر الصحابة، هذا تقدير كلام الشيعة، والجواب: أنه كما انعقد الإجماع بين المسلمين على أن محمدا عليه السلام أفضل من علي، فكذلك انعقد الإجماع بينهم قبل ظهور هذا الإنسان، على أن النبي أفضل ممن ليس بنبي، وأجمعوا على أن عليا رضي الله عنه ما كان نبيا، فلزم القطع بأن ظاهر الآية كما أنه مخصوص في حق محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم، فكذلك مخصوص في حق سائر الأنبياء عليهم السلام.

 

As for the Hadith this shia claimed everyone agrees upon and that you have mentioned after "Whoever wants to look at Adam in his knowledge.." then it is fabricated or weak in the best case scenario 

https://www.fnoor.com/main/articles.aspx?article_no=18854

Furthermore, you have mentioned books that Sunnis do not rely upon or take from again. Also, this Hadith is not in Musnad Ahmad so I do not know way it has been attributed to him. This is all talked about in the link.

10 minutes ago, Muslim2010 said:

"The Quran addresses the companions in three tones ie praising, warning and taunting that they may turn from the religion, thus divides them into three groups (as already quoted above):

1-    The First group addressed by Quran as believers, and they are righteous. Quran praises them.

All Muslims respect them as Quran praises them.

2-    The Second Group addressed by Quran as believers and they are not sincere in their actions. Quran warns them.

3.    The Third Group addressed by Quran who are hypocrites (Munafiqeen) among sahaba they may turn away from religion. Quran taunts them".

wasalam

This would be very off topic now. However, the Quran praises the majority of the companions without a doubt. The shia claim the majority are wither Fusaq or Kuffar. The verses mentioning Hypocrites only came in Madinah as they didn't exist until the Muslims had power.

 

Edited September 24 by Abu_Bakr_

[Muslim2010]

5 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

This would be very off topic now. However, the Quran praises the majority of the companions without a doubt.

Thanks for your response,

 For the First Tone of Quran Praising the companions (sahaba) the following verses can be quoted:

مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ ۚ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاءُ عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاءُ بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًا مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانًا ۖ سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ ۚ وَمَثَلُهُمْ فِي الْإِنجِيلِ كَزَرْعٍ أَخْرَجَ شَطْأَهُ فَآزَرَهُ فَاسْتَغْلَظَ فَاسْتَوَىٰ عَلَىٰ سُوقِهِ يُعْجِبُ الزُّرَّاعَ لِيَغِيظَ بِهِمُ الْكُفَّارَ ۗ وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا

وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنْهُم مَّغْفِرَةً وَأَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

 

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward. (48:29)

In the above verse Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned that he has promised for those as given below:

“Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.”

These are the companions who are believers and forgiveness and great reward (paradise) has been promised from them. The above verse indicates that this promise is only for the believers doing the righteous deeds and it excludes those who do not perform the righteous deeds.

The verse of quran is rejecting your understanding and claim that majority is on the right path from companions.

I like to see the evidence by the verses of quran that the majority is on right path and it should be followed.

wasalam

Edited September 24 by Muslim2010

[Cool]

17 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

والجواب: أنه كما انعقد الإجماع بين المسلمين على أن محمدا عليه السلام أفضل من علي، فكذلك انعقد الإجماع بينهم قبل ظهور هذا الإنسان، على أن النبي أفضل ممن ليس بنبي، وأجمعوا على أن عليا رضي الله عنه ما كان نبيا،

See Razi was not able to answer the argument properly lol. The argument is not about Ali (عليه السلام), argument is that Ali (عليه السلام) appeared as nafs of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). And it is the ijma'a of Muslims that Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is afdal than any other Prophet, hence Ali (being nafs e rasool) is.

Case closed!

 

[In Gods Name]

1 hour ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

This would be very off topic now. However, the Quran praises the majority of the companions without a doubt. The shia claim the majority are wither Fusaq or Kuffar. The verses mentioning Hypocrites only came in Madinah as they didn't exist until the Muslims had power.

 

The shia do not claim the majority was Fusaq or Kuffar. Most are in the camp of the fitnah and confusion. How many thousands of sahaba fought on the side of Ali during Jamal?

[Cool]

19 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

How many thousands of sahaba fought on the side of Ali during Jamal?

Actually Imams are the meezan (balance), so you must also look at the historical facts , how many of them defected in Siffin? Even the Khawarij came out from Imam Ali's (عليه السلام) camp. 

How many defected Imam Hassan (عليه السلام)? 

The companions, who remained steadfast on sirat e mustaqeem, are the light of our eyes. Who else is the Sirat except the Imams! 

[Muslim2010]

27 minutes ago, Cool said:

Actually Imams are the meezan (balance), so you must also look at the historical facts , how many of them defected in Siffin? Even the Khawarij came out from Imam Ali's (عليه السلام) camp. 

How many defected Imam Hassan (عليه السلام)? 

The companions, who remained steadfast on sirat e mustaqeem, are the light of our eyes. Who else is the Sirat except the Imams! 

Those who follow Quran and Ahl albayat ie Imams (عليه السلام) from the progeny of the prophet  remain steadfast with truth. I admire your words in the light of hadith Thqalyn and verses of the quran praising Ahl alabayt (عليه السلام).

wasalam

Edited September 24 by Muslim2010

[Abu_Bakr_]

Salam!

Please start another topic if you want to go into detail about other topics! If I am interested and have time I will take part Inshallah. Not really interested in going into detail of other topics here.

3 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

Thanks for your response,

 For the First Tone of Quran Praising the companions (sahaba) the following verses can be quoted:

مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ ۚ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاءُ عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاءُ بَيْنَهُمْ ۖ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًا مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانًا ۖ سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ ۚ وَمَثَلُهُمْ فِي الْإِنجِيلِ كَزَرْعٍ أَخْرَجَ شَطْأَهُ فَآزَرَهُ فَاسْتَغْلَظَ فَاسْتَوَىٰ عَلَىٰ سُوقِهِ يُعْجِبُ الزُّرَّاعَ لِيَغِيظَ بِهِمُ الْكُفَّارَ ۗ وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا

وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنْهُم مَّغْفِرَةً وَأَجْرًا عَظِيمًا

 

Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah ; and those with him are forceful against the disbelievers, merciful among themselves. You see them bowing and prostrating [in prayer], seeking bounty from Allah and [His] pleasure. Their mark is on their faces from the trace of prostration. That is their description in the Torah. And their description in the Gospel is as a plant which produces its offshoots and strengthens them so they grow firm and stand upon their stalks, delighting the sowers - so that Allah may enrage by them the disbelievers. Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward. (48:29)

In the above verse Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned that he has promised for those as given below:

“Allah has promised those who believe and do righteous deeds among them forgiveness and a great reward.”

These are the companions who are believers and forgiveness and great reward (paradise) has been promised from them. The above verse indicates that this promise is only for the believers doing the righteous deeds and it excludes those who do not perform the righteous deeds.

The verse of quran is rejecting your understanding and claim that majority is on the right path from companions.

I like to see the evidence by the verses of quran that the majority is on right path and it should be followed.

wasalam

The verse firstly shows that the majority are good hence the general praise. As for you not understanding the word "min" read this article

https://islamqa.info/ar/answers/263410/يسال-عن-معنى-منهم-في-قوله-تعالى-وعد-الله-الذين-امنوا-وعملوا-الصالحات-منهم-مغفرة

2 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

The shia do not claim the majority was Fusaq or Kuffar. Most are in the camp of the fitnah and confusion. How many thousands of sahaba fought on the side of Ali during Jamal?

All of the companions on both sides add up to around 30.

3 hours ago, Cool said:

See Razi was not able to answer the argument properly lol. The argument is not about Ali (عليه السلام), argument is that Ali (عليه السلام) appeared as nafs of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). And it is the ijma'a of Muslims that Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is afdal than any other Prophet, hence Ali (being nafs e rasool) is.

Case closed!

 

Claiming someone broke Ijma' isn't a proper answer?

Ar-Razi in general rarely goes into detail to refute people. His books weren't written for your average person who needs to be spoon fed. Hence scholars like Ibn Hajr used this point against him.

I could easily add more to his answer. For example the word "Nafs" is used for both the Prophet and the Christians. Yet the Shia person claimed that it can never mean "bring yourself" in this context after using the word "call upon".

The problem: Did the Christians bring someone as their "nafs"? It is in reality this is a linguistic claim with no evidence that contradicts the story.

2 hours ago, Cool said:

Actually Imams are the meezan (balance), so you must also look at the historical facts , how many of them defected in Siffin? Even the Khawarij came out from Imam Ali's (عليه السلام) camp. 

How many defected Imam Hassan (عليه السلام)? 

The companions, who remained steadfast on sirat e mustaqeem, are the light of our eyes. Who else is the Sirat except the Imams! 

Including Aqeel who went with Muawiyah?

Imam Hassan who pledged allegiance to Muawiyah? Of course the Shias claim it is a peace treaty even though Shia hadiths call it a pledge of allegiance. What kind of peace treaty gives the other person all your land and authority and in return you get relatively nothing? Furthermore, some of the people who insulted Hassan for this "peace treaty" are loved by Shias until this day.

Shias double standards when it comes to the fitnah are many.

[Cool]

14 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

I could easily add more to his answer.

lol, I am not surprised with the words you added, obviously when your heavy weights failed to counter any argument how can you (who just copy paste what your scholars says, instead of pondering on things) succeed. 

17 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Did the Christians bring someone as their "nafs"? It

Look how you failed to realize the situation and the verse in question. 

There were many Christians who came to Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for debating. So first situation is that there are many against one. 

The second situation, Allah s w.t commanded the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) "فقل". 

Now this will further take you to the question I asked earlier, in response to which you proved that you don't know Arabic. Here is what I asked:

On 9/23/2023 at 9:38 PM, Cool said:

You and your Ibn Taymiyyah both need to learn Arabic. Please tell me the meaning of انفسنا، the pronoun نا points towards whom? 

The 1st person plural possessive pronoun for abna'ana, nisa'ana, anfusana, points toward whom? 

Your answer:

On 9/23/2023 at 10:04 PM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

It is plural. The same way Nisa'ana is plural

lol, thanks for mentioning me its a plural. I already mentioned it as "1st person plural possessive pronoun". 

Is that the answer? lol

So Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was commanded by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) "to say". To say what? 

تعالوا (come), whom he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was calling to come? And come to whom? 

ندع (let us call) 

ابناءنا و ابناءكم (our sons & your sons)

نساءنا و نساءكم (our women & your women)

انفسنا و انفسكم (ourselves & yourselves)

Time to quote the argument of that معلم الشيعي:

11 hours ago, Cool said:

لأن الإنسان لا يدعو نفسه بل المراد به غيره، وأجمعوا على أن ذلك الغير كان علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه

I literally tried to spoonfeed you here lol. If even this spoon feeding doesn't help you to get to the meanings, then I am sorry, you have decided not to accept the truth. 

42 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Including Aqeel who went with Muawiyah?

Including the ones who were supposed to be Awwaloon, who forgot the very basic lesson of Sura e Baqrah that the alleged 600,000 years of worship of a Jin becomes vein because he refused to accept & submit to the appointed caliph of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

So any awwal o sabiq from any part of Muslims (muhajir or ansaar) who refused to accept the Caliph of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as announced by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in Ghadeer, is become a fasiq like shaitan. 

What you are trying to say about Aqeel, would become a bone in your throat. And I am making it a bone in your throat by quoting few references:

على حسب رواية الأصمعي : أن عقيلاً ترك علياً ، و ذهب إلى معاوية .
فقال معاوية : يا أهل الشام ، ما ظنكم برجل لا يصلح لأخيه ؟
فقال عقيل : يا أهل الشام ، إن أخي خير لنفسه و شر لي ، و إن معاوية شر لنفسه ، و خير لي

عيون الأخبار لابن قتيبة : 2 / 197

و على حسب رواية حميد بن هلال : أنه بعد ان أتى معاوية ، و أعطاه مئة ألف ، قال له معاوية : اصعد المنبر فاذكر ما أولاك به علي ، و ما أوليتك فصعد ، فحمد الله و أثنى عليه ، ثم قال : أيها الناس ، إني أخبركم : أني أردت علياً على دينه ، فاختار دينه ، و أردت معاوية على دينه فاختارني على دينه

تاريخ الخلفاء للسيوطي : 204 ، و السيرة الحلبية : 1 / 268

و على حسب رواية هشام بن عروة : إن معاوية قال لعقيل يوماً : يا أبا يزيد ، أنا خير لك من اخيك علي ؟
فقال : إن أخي آثر دينه على دنياه ، و أنت آثرت دنياك على دينك ، فأخي خير لنفسه منك لنفسك

أنساب الأشراف ط الأعلمي : 73 / 2 

المسعودي يروي أنه قال له : يا أبا يزيد ، كيف تركت علياً ؟
فقال : تركته على ما يحب الله و رسوله ، و ألفيتك على ما يكره الله و رسوله .
فقال له معاوية : لولا أنك زائر منتجع جانبنا لرددت عليك أبا يزيد جواباً تألم منه .
ثم أحب معاوية أن يقطع كلامه ، مخافة أن يأتي بشيء يخفضه ، فوثب عن مجلسه ، و أمر له بنزل ، و حمل إليه مالاً عظيماً ، فلما كان من غد جلس ، و أرسل إليه ، فأتاه فقال له : يا أبا يزيد ، كيف تركت علياً أخاك ؟
قال : تركته خيراً لنفسه منك ، و أنت خير لي منه الخ . . كلامه الذي يذكر فيه أنه يمدح صعصعة بن صوحان ، فيرسل إليه صعصعة رسالة شكر و ثناء

مروج الذهب : 3 / 36 

These are some of the references from your history books. The answer of Aqeel is a shame for you and your Munafiq Muawiyah. lol

According to us we cannot accept that Aqeel’s going to Muawiyah took place during the life of his brother Ali (عليه السلام) and we doubt that very much, and what we can confirm is that he only went to him. He came to him after the death of his brother, like all others who came to him, to protect themselves and preserve their lives and existence, or to seek sustenance and sustenance.
Even if we accept that he went to the Levant, it is certain that Muawiyah and the Umayyads had nothing to do with him but scandals for them, and he was never angry with Ali as they claimed

26 minutes ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

 

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

22 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

هذا تقدير كلام الشيعة، والجواب: أنه كما انعقد الإجماع بين المسلمين على أن محمدا عليه السلام أفضل من علي، فكذلك انعقد الإجماع بينهم قبل ظهور هذا الإنسان، على أن النبي أفضل ممن ليس بنبي، وأجمعوا على أن عليا رضي الله عنه ما كان نبيا، فلزم القطع بأن ظاهر الآية كما أنه مخصوص في حق محمد صلى الله عليه وسلم، فكذلك مخصوص في حق سائر الأنبياء عليهم السلام.

 

As for the Hadith this shia claimed everyone agrees upon and that you have mentioned after "Whoever wants to look at Adam in his knowledge.." then it is fabricated or weak in the best case scenario 

https://www.fnoor.com/main/articles.aspx?article_no=18854

This  bolded part has been added by a Wahabi  which your mentioned site is a Wahbi sites which misinterprets weverything by cherry picking & distortion of Shia Hadiths without providing  a reliable source likeiwe source ofbook & chapter & number or narrator  about it's fake claims anyway in this case You have tried to weaken  an authentic narration by adding  biased viewpoint of a Wahabi site at end of it .