Quran proves Prophets are the best of creation

[Abu_Bakr_]

Salam,

 

An essential Shia belief is that Imams are greater than Prophets and Messengers apart from Our Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  For example, we see Al-Khomeini say:
 

ان من ضرورياتنا ان لائمتنا مقاما لا يملكه ملك مقرب ولا نبي مرسل وقد ورد عنهم(ع) ان لنا مع الله حالات لا يبلغها ملك مقرب ولا نبي مرسل

However, this contradicts the Quran, that after mentioning several Prophets says Allah has preferred them (fadalna in Arabic) over the worlds. We read in Surah Al-An'am verse 83-86

 

وَتِلۡكَ حُجَّتُنَآ ءَاتَيۡنَٰهَآ إِبۡرَٰهِيمَ عَلَىٰ قَوۡمِهِۦۚ نَرۡفَعُ دَرَجَٰتٖ مَّن نَّشَآءُۗ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ حَكِيمٌ عَلِيمٞ ٨٣ وَوَهَبۡنَا لَهُۥٓ إِسۡحَٰقَ وَيَعۡقُوبَۚ كُلًّا هَدَيۡنَاۚ وَنُوحًا هَدَيۡنَا مِن قَبۡلُۖ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِهِۦ دَاوُۥدَ وَسُلَيۡمَٰنَ وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُوسُفَ وَمُوسَىٰ وَهَٰرُونَۚ وَكَذَٰلِكَ نَجۡزِي ٱلۡمُحۡسِنِينَ ٨٤ وَزَكَرِيَّا وَيَحۡيَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَإِلۡيَاسَۖ كُلّٞ مِّنَ ٱلصَّٰلِحِينَ ٨٥ وَإِسۡمَٰعِيلَ وَٱلۡيَسَعَ وَيُونُسَ وَلُوطٗاۚ وَكُلّٗا فَضَّلۡنَا عَلَى ٱلۡعَٰلَمِينَ ٨٦

 

And that was Our Proof which We gave Ibrâhîm (Abraham) against his people. We raise whom We will in degrees. Certainly your Lord is All-Wise, All-Knowing.

 And We bestowed upon him Ishâq (Isaac) and Ya‘qûb (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nûh (Noah), and among his progeny Dâwûd (David), Sulaimân (Solomon), Ayyûb (Job), Yûsuf (Joseph), Mûsâ (Moses), and Hârûn (Aaron). Thus do We reward Al-Muhsinûn (the good-doers)

  And Zakariyâ (Zachariya), and Yahya (John) and ‘Îsâ (Jesus) and Iliyâs (Elias), each one of them was of the righteous.

  And Ismâ‘îl (Ishmael) and Al-Yasa‘ (Elisha), and Yûnus (Jonah) and Lût (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the ‘Âlamîn [mankind and jinn (of their times)].

 

Shias like to ignore this verse and quote Surah Al-Baqarah verse 124 to prove Imams are greater than Prophets. A sign of a wrong tafseer is that it contradicts other verses. Funnily enough the verse can be explained very easily by just using the Quran, not hadiths that Shia will reject. The verse says:

 

۞ وَإِذِ ٱبْتَلَىٰٓ إِبْرَٰهِـۧمَ رَبُّهُۥ بِكَلِمَـٰتٍۢ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّى جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًۭا ۖ قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِى ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِى ٱلظَّـٰلِمِينَ ١٢٤

 

And [mention, O Muḥammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with words [i.e., commands] and he fulfilled them. [Allāh] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [Allāh] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

 

As for the first highlighted part the explanation for that is in Surah An-Nahl verse 123

 

ثُمَّ أَوْحَيْنَآ إِلَيْكَ أَنِ ٱتَّبِعْ مِلَّةَ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ حَنِيفًۭا ۖ وَمَا كَانَ مِنَ ٱلْمُشْرِكِينَ ١٢٣

 

Then We revealed to you, [O Muḥammad], to follow the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth; and he was not of those who associate with Allāh.

 

As for the second highlighted part we see its clear tafseer in Surah Al-'Ankabut verse 27

 

وَوَهَبْنَا لَهُۥٓ إِسْحَـٰقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَجَعَلْنَا فِى ذُرِّيَّتِهِ ٱلنُّبُوَّةَ وَٱلْكِتَـٰبَ وَءَاتَيْنَـٰهُ أَجْرَهُۥ فِى ٱلدُّنْيَا ۖ وَإِنَّهُۥ فِى ٱلْـَٔاخِرَةِ لَمِنَ ٱلصَّـٰلِحِينَ ٢٧

 

And We bestowed on him [Ibrâhîm (Abraham)], Ishâq (Isaac) and Ya‘qûb (Jacob), and We ordained among his offspring Prophethood and the Book [i.e. the Taurât (Torah) (to Mûsâ - Moses), the Injeel (Gospel) (to ‘Îsâ - Jesus), and the Qur’ân (to Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم), all from the offspring of Ibrâhîm (Abraham)], and We granted him his reward in this world; and verily, in the Hereafter he is indeed among the righteous.

 

The Quran clearly states the covenant in his offspring was Prophethood and the Book. 

 

Salam!

 

 

 

[Abu Nur]

Salaam Aleikum,

This seems funny to you so what benefit we can have in discussion when you consider other sides viewpoint as funny? You have demonstrated from other topic that it is actually you who cannot understand some Qur'anic verses, trying to force imply your madhab in it, very unhonest and biased process.

Quote

And that was Our Proof which We gave Ibrâhîm (Abraham) against his people. We raise whom We will in degrees. Certainly your Lord is All-Wise, All-Knowing.

 And We bestowed upon him Ishâq (Isaac) and Ya‘qûb (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nûh (Noah), and among his progeny Dâwûd (David), Sulaimân (Solomon), Ayyûb (Job), Yûsuf (Joseph), Mûsâ (Moses), and Hârûn (Aaron). Thus do We reward Al-Muhsinûn (the good-doers)

  And Zakariyâ (Zachariya), and Yahya (John) and ‘Îsâ (Jesus) and Iliyâs (Elias), each one of them was of the righteous.

  And Ismâ‘îl (Ishmael) and Al-Yasa‘ (Elisha), and Yûnus (Jonah) and Lût (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the ‘Âlamîn [mankind and jinn (of their times)].

Each of them preferred by of their times And among them are also Imams. Even let say that they are preferred by all times, then it does not mean that God does not prefer others that are not are mentioned in list over others. This verse does not prove that All of them are greater than our Imams (عليه السلام), nor does it say that Prophet Muhammad (saws) is greater than them in status when we know he is. Nor does it says that our Imams (عليه السلام) are greater than them. This is because the verse is irrelevant to your argument.

Quote

The Quran clearly states the covenant in his offspring was Prophethood and the Book. 

So how in the world among his offspring there were those who are appointed as Imams (عليه السلام) if his offspring was only Prophethood and Books?

Quote

And [mention, O Muḥammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with words [i.e., commands] and he fulfilled them. [Allāh] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [Allāh] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers."

Qur'an demonstrated that Imamah can be given only to descendants of Ibrahim that are not wrongdoers.

Edited September 19 by Abu Nur

[Cool]

Salam!

First of all, the verse where Quran has mentioned "best of creation", there is no mention of Prophet & Non-Prophet:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ أُوْلَئِكَ هُمْ خَيْرُ الْبَرِيَّةِ

98:7

So bearers of "emaan" and "doers of good deeds" are the best of creation according to Quran. 

What would you call to the one whom Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has introduced as "kull e emaan" in battle of khandaq? 

2 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

An essential Shia belief is that Imams are greater than Prophets and Messengers apart from Our Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

Imams عليهم السلام، according to our belief, are the bearers of "minniyat" of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and there are many traditions in Sunni & Shi'i hadith books e.g., 

حسين مني و انا من حسين

انهم مني و انا منهم

etc.

And this understanding is further testified by Quran in the verse of mubahila:

فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنْفُسَنَا وَأَنْفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَلْ لَعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ {61}

[3:61] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our nafs and your nafs, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

The event of mubahila is clearly mentioning the certified truthful ones. The holy 5 (punjetan) are the best of creation whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  sent against the Christians for invoking curse of Allah on the liars. 

Wassalam!

[ShiaMan14]

4 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Salam,

 

An essential Shia belief is that Imams are greater than Prophets and Messengers apart from Our Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).  For example, we see Al-Khomeini say:
 

ان من ضرورياتنا ان لائمتنا مقاما لا يملكه ملك مقرب ولا نبي مرسل وقد ورد عنهم(ع) ان لنا مع الله حالات لا يبلغها ملك مقرب ولا نبي مرسل

However, this contradicts the Quran, that after mentioning several Prophets says Allah has preferred them (fadalna in Arabic) over the worlds. We read in Surah Al-An'am verse 83-86

 

وَتِلۡكَ حُجَّتُنَآ ءَاتَيۡنَٰهَآ إِبۡرَٰهِيمَ عَلَىٰ قَوۡمِهِۦۚ نَرۡفَعُ دَرَجَٰتٖ مَّن نَّشَآءُۗ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ حَكِيمٌ عَلِيمٞ ٨٣ وَوَهَبۡنَا لَهُۥٓ إِسۡحَٰقَ وَيَعۡقُوبَۚ كُلًّا هَدَيۡنَاۚ وَنُوحًا هَدَيۡنَا مِن قَبۡلُۖ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِهِۦ دَاوُۥدَ وَسُلَيۡمَٰنَ وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُوسُفَ وَمُوسَىٰ وَهَٰرُونَۚ وَكَذَٰلِكَ نَجۡزِي ٱلۡمُحۡسِنِينَ ٨٤ وَزَكَرِيَّا وَيَحۡيَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَإِلۡيَاسَۖ كُلّٞ مِّنَ ٱلصَّٰلِحِينَ ٨٥ وَإِسۡمَٰعِيلَ وَٱلۡيَسَعَ وَيُونُسَ وَلُوطٗاۚ وَكُلّٗا فَضَّلۡنَا عَلَى ٱلۡعَٰلَمِينَ ٨٦

 

And that was Our Proof which We gave Ibrâhîm (Abraham) against his people. We raise whom We will in degrees. Certainly your Lord is All-Wise, All-Knowing.

 And We bestowed upon him Ishâq (Isaac) and Ya‘qûb (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nûh (Noah), and among his progeny Dâwûd (David), Sulaimân (Solomon), Ayyûb (Job), Yûsuf (Joseph), Mûsâ (Moses), and Hârûn (Aaron). Thus do We reward Al-Muhsinûn (the good-doers)

  And Zakariyâ (Zachariya), and Yahya (John) and ‘Îsâ (Jesus) and Iliyâs (Elias), each one of them was of the righteous.

  And Ismâ‘îl (Ishmael) and Al-Yasa‘ (Elisha), and Yûnus (Jonah) and Lût (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the ‘Âlamîn [mankind and jinn (of their times)].

Salaam,

Is it possible within reason that this verse could imply that of the named Prophets (عليه السلام) in these verses were the "Preferred" above the "Alamin" during their respective lifetimes. For example, no one was greater than Isa (عليه السلام) during his lifetime; no one was better than Ishaq (عليه السلام) during his lifetime, etc?

 

[Abu_Bakr_]

Salam

 

6 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

 

This seems funny to you so what benefit we can have in discussion when you consider other sides viewpoint as funny? You have demonstrated from other topic that it is actually you who cannot understand some Qur'anic verses, trying to force imply your madhab in it, very unhonest and biased process.

 

I won't use the word funny anymore. No point of bringing up a previous topic and accusing me. People on shiachat can go read and come to their own conclusions. 

6 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

 

Each of them preferred by of their times 

 

Of* their times is in brackets added by the translator. The actual verses doesn't mention it. 

6 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

 

 And among them are also Imams. 

 

Allah doesn't mention that as the reason why they are better. Allah says after this 

 

 أُوْلَٰٓئِكَ ٱلَّذِينَ ءَاتَيۡنَٰهُمُ ٱلۡكِتَٰبَ وَٱلۡحُكۡمَ وَٱلنُّبُوَّةَۚ فَإِن يَكۡفُرۡ بِهَا هَٰٓؤُلَآءِ فَقَدۡ وَكَّلۡنَا بِهَا قَوۡمٗا لَّيۡسُواْ بِهَا بِكَٰفِرِينَ ٨٩

 

Those are the ones to whom We gave the Scripture and authority and prophethood. But if they [i.e., the disbelievers] deny it, then We have entrusted it to a people who are not therein disbelievers.

6 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Even let say that they are preferred by all times, then it does not mean that God does not prefer others that are not are mentioned in list over others. This verse does not prove that All of them are greater than our Imams (عليه السلام), nor does it say that Prophet Muhammad (saws) is greater than them in status when we know he is. Nor does it says that our Imams (عليه السلام) are greater than them. This is because the verse is irrelevant to your argument.

The verses mention several people that have the common factor of Prophethood and says they are better than the worlds. It goes on to say "Those are the ones to whom We gave the Scripture and authority and prophethood." The verse is very relevant. It claims they are better due to Prophethood in comparison  to all of creation.

6 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

 

So how in the world among his offspring there were those who are appointed as Imams (عليه السلام) if his offspring was only Prophethood and Books?

 

???

Is this a question for me? That is what I am trying to find out.

6 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

 

Qur'an demonstrated that Imamah can be given only to descendants of Ibrahim that are not wrongdoers.

That doesn't relate to the topic or to what the other verse says. I merely made clear what the covenant, that you call Imamah, actually is. As for "wrongdoers" that can mean Kuffar, Fasiq etc. A vague term. Also, the verse doesn't state that the person who receives this covenant was never a wrong doer merely that it won't reach him while he is a wrong doer.

6 hours ago, Cool said:

Salam!

First of all, the verse where Quran has mentioned "best of creation", there is no mention of Prophet & Non-Prophet:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ أُوْلَئِكَ هُمْ خَيْرُ الْبَرِيَّةِ

98:7

So bearers of "emaan" and "doers of good deeds" are the best of creation according to Quran. 

 

Yes the believers are the best of creation. No contradiction. The Prophets are believers. The believers are ranks, the Prophets being the highest. No logical contradiction here.

6 hours ago, Cool said:

 

What would you call to the one whom Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has introduced as "kull e emaan" in battle of khandaq? 

 

Fabricated hadith that has no basis in Islam. Bring a authentic hadith please.

6 hours ago, Cool said:

 

Imams عليهم السلام، according to our belief, are the bearers of "minniyat" of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and there are many traditions in Sunni & Shi'i hadith books e.g., 

حسين مني و انا من حسين

انهم مني و انا منهم

etc.

 

This isn't specific to the Ahlul Bayt. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has said it about others. For example, Julaybib and the Asharis (not to be confused with the Ashari sect). In reality it shows a lack of understanding of Arab terms. If you want to take the literal meaning of this hadith, after assuming "of me" to mean they are of the same rank, that would mean you say they are equal to the Prophet. You don't claim this.

 

6 hours ago, Cool said:

 is further testified by Quran in the verse of mubahila:

فَمَنْ حَاجَّكَ فِيهِ مِنْ بَعْدِ مَا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْعِلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعَالَوْا نَدْعُ أَبْنَاءَنَا وَأَبْنَاءَكُمْ وَنِسَاءَنَا وَنِسَاءَكُمْ وَأَنْفُسَنَا وَأَنْفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعَلْ لَعْنَتَ اللَّهِ عَلَى الْكَاذِبِينَ {61}

[3:61] But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our nafs and your nafs, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars.

The event of mubahila is clearly mentioning the certified truthful ones. The holy 5 (punjetan) are the best of creation whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  sent against the Christians for invoking curse of Allah on the liars. 

Wassalam!

Again the verse doesn't mention rank. However, you have also done incorrect tafseer. "Call ourselves and your selves" has nothing to do with Ali or the nafs of the Prophet. It means that the Prophet himself and the Christians who disputed him had to attend. Do you claim they didn't? What a strange tafseer.

Ali was brought as one of the sons, as the Prophet raised him and he was his last left son in law at the time. His other daughters had already died hence why Fatima only came.  Mubahila hasn't got anything to do with bringing the best people. It has to do with bringing your relatives. Even to this day when they happen between Sunnis and Shias that is done.

4 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

Salaam,

Is it possible within reason that this verse could imply that of the named Prophets (عليه السلام) in these verses were the "Preferred" above the "Alamin" during their respective lifetimes. For example, no one was greater than Isa (عليه السلام) during his lifetime; no one was better than Ishaq (عليه السلام) during his lifetime, etc?

 

That claim would need evidence. See the above response. The apparent meaning of the verse is general, that they are the best. Limiting it to their lifetime is problematic. For example, a "open-minded" muslim can use the same excuse to claim some scholars are greater than Prophets.

[ShiaMan14]

5 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

That claim would need evidence. See the above response. The apparent meaning of the verse is general, that they are the best. Limiting it to their lifetime is problematic. For example, a "open-minded" muslim can use the same excuse to claim some scholars are greater than Prophets.

The evidence is in the translation you quoted brother:

 

14 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

We read in Surah Al-An'am verse 83-86

 

وَتِلۡكَ حُجَّتُنَآ ءَاتَيۡنَٰهَآ إِبۡرَٰهِيمَ عَلَىٰ قَوۡمِهِۦۚ نَرۡفَعُ دَرَجَٰتٖ مَّن نَّشَآءُۗ إِنَّ رَبَّكَ حَكِيمٌ عَلِيمٞ ٨٣ وَوَهَبۡنَا لَهُۥٓ إِسۡحَٰقَ وَيَعۡقُوبَۚ كُلًّا هَدَيۡنَاۚ وَنُوحًا هَدَيۡنَا مِن قَبۡلُۖ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِهِۦ دَاوُۥدَ وَسُلَيۡمَٰنَ وَأَيُّوبَ وَيُوسُفَ وَمُوسَىٰ وَهَٰرُونَۚ وَكَذَٰلِكَ نَجۡزِي ٱلۡمُحۡسِنِينَ ٨٤ وَزَكَرِيَّا وَيَحۡيَىٰ وَعِيسَىٰ وَإِلۡيَاسَۖ كُلّٞ مِّنَ ٱلصَّٰلِحِينَ ٨٥ وَإِسۡمَٰعِيلَ وَٱلۡيَسَعَ وَيُونُسَ وَلُوطٗاۚ وَكُلّٗا فَضَّلۡنَا عَلَى ٱلۡعَٰلَمِينَ ٨٦

 

And that was Our Proof which We gave Ibrâhîm (Abraham) against his people. We raise whom We will in degrees. Certainly your Lord is All-Wise, All-Knowing.

 And We bestowed upon him Ishâq (Isaac) and Ya‘qûb (Jacob), each of them We guided, and before him, We guided Nûh (Noah), and among his progeny Dâwûd (David), Sulaimân (Solomon), Ayyûb (Job), Yûsuf (Joseph), Mûsâ (Moses), and Hârûn (Aaron). Thus do We reward Al-Muhsinûn (the good-doers)

  And Zakariyâ (Zachariya), and Yahya (John) and ‘Îsâ (Jesus) and Iliyâs (Elias), each one of them was of the righteous.

  And Ismâ‘îl (Ishmael) and Al-Yasa‘ (Elisha), and Yûnus (Jonah) and Lût (Lot), and each one of them We preferred above the ‘Âlamîn [mankind and jinn (of their times)].

So my question still stands.

[Cool]

6 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Yes the believers are the best of creation. No contradiction. The Prophets are believers. The believers are ranks, the Prophets being the highest. No logical contradiction here.

You will find in Quran the verses:

فَوَجَدَا عَبْدًا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا آتَيْنَاهُ رَحْمَةً مِنْ عِنْدِنَا وَعَلَّمْنَاهُ مِنْ لَدُنَّا عِلْمًا {65}

[Shakir 18:65] Then they found one from among Our servants whom We had granted mercy from Us and whom We had taught knowledge from Ourselves.

قَالَ لَهُ مُوسَىٰ هَلْ أَتَّبِعُكَ عَلَىٰ أَنْ تُعَلِّمَنِ مِمَّا عُلِّمْتَ رُشْدًا {66}

[Shakir 18:66] Musa said to him: Shall I follow you on condition that you should teach me right knowledge of what you have been taught?

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has introduced Khizr (عليه السلام) as His Abd (not as Prophet) in above verse and Musa (عليه السلام) being a Prophet unable to display patience with that Abd of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

My question, who appeared as "high in rank" among them in this story? The Abd (Khizr (عليه السلام)) or the Prophet (Musa (عليه السلام))?

6 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Fabricated hadith that has no basis in Islam. Bring a authentic hadith please.

lol, if I were to quote verses from al-Ahzaab, your belief on the very definition of sahaba would collapse. 

It always amuse me how you reject accepting the ahadith mentioning the merits of Ali (عليه السلام)

6 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

This isn't specific to the Ahlul Bayt. The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has said it about others.

 Can you please quote where Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said it about others? I am sure you will bring ahadith like the ones which mentions doors, roof, windows of the city of knowledge.

6 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Ali was brought as one of the sons, as the Prophet raised him and he was his last left son in law at the time. His other daughters had already died hence why Fatima only came.  Mubahila hasn't got anything to do with bringing the best people.

 what a great idea!!

يقول‌ محبّ الدين‌ الطبريّ: [3] عَنِ ابنِ عُمَرَ قَالَ: آخِي‌ رَسُولُ اللهِ
 صَلَّي‌ اللَهُ عَلَيْهِ ] وَ آلهِ [ وَ سَلَّمَ بَينَ أَصْحَابِهِ فَجاءَ عَلِيٌّ تَدْمَعُ عَيْنَاهُ، فَقَالَ: يَا رَسُولَ اللَهِ! آخَيْتَ بَيْنَ أَصْحَابِكَ وَ لَمْ تُؤاخِ بَينِي‌ وَ بَينَ أَحَدٍ؟ قَالَ لَهُ رَسُولُ اللَهِ صَلَّي‌ اللَهُ عَلَيْهِ ] وَ آلهِ [ وَ سَلَّمَ: أَنْتَ أَخِي‌ فِي‌ الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ.

عن‌ الإمام‌ أحمد بن‌ حنبل‌: إِنَّ النَبِيّ صَلَّي‌ اللَه‌ ُ عَلَيهِ وَ آلِهِ وَ سَلَّمَ قَالَ لَهُ لَمَّا قَالَ: آخَيتَ بَينَ أَصحَابِكَ وَ تَركْتَنِي‌؟ قَالَ: وَ لِمَ تَرَانِي‌ تَرَكْتُكَ؟ إِنَّمَا تَرَكتُكَ لِنَفْسِي‌، أَنْتَ أَخِي‌ وَ أَنَا أَخُوكَ

يقول‌ ابن‌ الاثير: وَ آخَاهُ رَسُولُ اللَهِ صَلَّي‌ اللَهُ عَلَيْهِ ] وَ آلِهِ [ وَسَلَّمَ مَرَّتَينِ، فَإِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَهِ آخَي‌ بَينَ المُهَاجِرينَ، ثُمَّ آخَي‌ بَينَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالانصَارِ بَعْدَ الْهِجْرَةِ، وَ قَالَ لِعَليٍّ فِي‌ كُلِّ واحِدَةٍ مِنهُمَا: أَنتَ أَخِي‌ فِي‌ الدُّنيَا وَالآخِرَةِ.

عن‌ أحمد بن‌ حنبل‌ في‌ مسنده‌ بسنده‌ المتّصل‌ عن‌ مخدوج‌ ابن‌ زيد الهُذليّ أنـّه‌ قالَ: إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللهِ صَلّي‌ اللَهُ عَلَيهِ ] وَ آلِهِ [ وَ سَلَّمَ آخَي‌ بَينَ الْمُسلِمينَ، ثُمَّ قَالَ: يَا عِلِيُّ! أنتَ أَخِي‌ وَ أَنتَ مِنّي‌ بِمَنزِلَةِ هَارونَ مِنْ مُوسَي‌ إِلاَّ أَنَّهُ لاَنَبِيَّ بَعْدِي‌ ـ إلی‌ أن‌ قَالَ: صَلّي‌ اللهُ عَلَيهِ ] وَ آلِهِ [ وَ سَلَّمَ: ثُمَّ يُنَادِي‌ المُنَادِي‌ مِن‌ عِندِ العَرشِ: نِعْمَ الابُ أَبُوكَ إِبراهِيمُ، وَ نِعْمَ الاخُ أَخُوكَ علی

روي‌ ابن‌ الصبّاغ‌ المالكيّ عن‌ ضياء الدين‌ الخوارزميّ عن‌ ابن‌ عبّاس‌ أنـّه‌ قَالَ: لَمّا آخَي‌ رَسُولُ اللَهِ صَلَّي‌ اللَهُ عَلَيهِ وَآلِهِ وَ سَلَّمَ بَيْنَ أصْحَابِهِ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرينَ وَالانصارِ وَ هُوَ أَنـّهُ آخَي‌ بَيْنَ أَبِي‌ بَكرٍ وَ عُمَرَ وَآخَي‌ بَينَ عُثمَانَ وَ عَبدِ الرَّحمـنِ بنِ عَوفٍ، وَ آخَي‌ بَينَ طَلْحَةَ وَالزُّبَيرِ
 وَ آخَي‌ بَينَ أبي‌ذَرٍّ الغِفَاريِّ وَالْمِقدادِ، وَ لَمْ يُواخِ بَينَ عَلِيِّ بنِ أَبي‌ طالِبٍ وَبَينَ أَحدٍ مِنهُمْ، خَرَجَ عَلِيٌّ مُغضِباً حَتَّي‌ أتي‌ جَدْوَلاً مِنَ الارضِ وَ تَوَسَّدَ ذِراعَهُ وَ نَامَ فِيهِ، تَسْفِي‌ الرِّيحُ عَلَيْهِ، فَطَلَبَهُ النَّبِي‌ صَلَّي‌ اللَهُ عَلَيهِ وَآلِهِ وَ سَلَّمَ فَوَجَدَهُ علی تِلكَ الصِّفَةَ فَوَكَزَهُ بِرِجلِهِ وَ قَالَ لَهُ: قُم‌ فَما صَلَحْتَ أن‌ تَكُونَ إلاَّ أَبا تُرابٍ، أَغَضِبْتَ حِينَ آخَيتُ بَينَ المُهَاجِرينَ وَالانصارِ وَ لَمْ أُواخِ بَيْنَكَ وَ بَينَ أَحَدٍ مِنهُمْ؟ أَمَا تَرضَي‌ أَنْ تَكُونَ مِنّي‌ بِمَنزِلَةِ هَارونَ مِن‌ مُوسَي‌ إِلاَّ أنَّهُ لاَ نَبِيّ بَعْدِي‌. أَلاَ مَن‌ أَحَبَّكَ، فَقَد حُفَّ بِالاْمنِ وَا لإيمانِ. وَمَن‌ أَبْغَضَكَ، أَماتَهُ اللَهُ مِيتَةً جَاهِلِيّةً

I have yet to quote ahadith which mentions the creation of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Ali (عليه السلام) from one noor.

[Eddie Mecca]

16 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

An essential Shia belief is that Imams are greater than Prophets

Essential creedal Shi'i belief?! That's a stretch...at most, it's a theory/belief held by some laypeople and I'm assuming some scholars...the theory has some pretty solid reasoning behind it...you yourselves believes Umar and Bilal's (r) footsteps will be heard in Jannah before the Prophet's (s) 

[Ashvazdanghe]

13 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Ali was brought as one of the sons, as the Prophet raised him and he was his last left son in law at the time. His other daughters had already died hence why Fatima only came.  Mubahila hasn't got anything to do with bringing the best people. It has to do with bringing your relatives. Even to this day when they happen between Sunnis and Shias that is done.

Salam this is pure nonsense from Wahabi apologetics  which prophet Muhammad (pbu) has adopted Zayd b. Haritha as his stepson which although his name has been mentioned in holy Quran but he has not brough him into Mubahila in similar fashion prophet (pbu) has adopted daughters from sister of lady Khadija (sa) which lady Fatima has been his only real daughter also your logic about  bringing relatives to Mubahila is void because holy Quran doesn't mention bringing relatives to Mubahila which it has been mentioned that Muslims (ie prophet) & Christians bring best of themselves from their Nafs (brother) & women & children .

One of virtues quoted for “Uthman ibn Afan” is that he got married with two daughters of Prophet Muhammad [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] named “Ruqayyah” and “Umm Kulthum”. There are different ideas in this regard, Sunnis persist on it decisively; but some Shia researchers believe that neither of Uthman’s wives were Prophet’s daughter but they were Prophet’s Rabiyyah {Wife’s daughter from ex-husband} and daughters of Hadrat Khadijah’s sisters and they’ve said reasons for this possibility that we quote these reasons and leave judgment to dear readers.

We don’t have even one invalid narrative in both Shia and Sunni books in which messenger of Allah [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] has knocked on Ruqayyah and Umm Kulthum’s door even once. Why didn’t messenger of Allah have such close relationship with his other daughters neither in “Medina” nor even in “Mecca”? Weren’t they – according to Sunni - daughters of “Khadijah”?

 

If – according to Sunni - “Ruqayyah” and “Umm Kulthum” were Prophet Muhammad’s [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] daughter, so why no relationship has been quoted between Islamic Prophet and them?

2: in the story of “Mubahila” in which Prophet Muhammad [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] invited all his first-degree relatives, why didn’t he take his other daughters and amongst his “Womenfolk” he just selected “Fatimah” [(عليه السلام)]?

 

3: why didn’t anyone propose to other daughters of Prophet Muhammad [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)]?

Another thing that voids this matter is that it’s written in no place of history that any of “Muhajirin” or “Ansar” proposed to “Umm Kulthum”, while they’d outpace each other proposing to hadrat “Fatimah” [(عليه السلام)] becoming Prophet’s son-in-law. Wasn’t “Umm Kulthum” daughter of Prophet or such daughter didn’t exist at all?

https://www.valiasr-aj.com/english/mobile_shownews.php?idnews=560

Fatimah, the Abundant Blessing

Back in the time of jahiliyah (pagan ignorance), the Arabs had no respect for the female gender and considered only their sons as valuable assets. At that time, the Prophet’s sons died one after the other, and his enemies would mock him by telling him that he had no heir to continue his lineage. Then God revealed Surah Kausar to His messenger, giving him the good news of abundant blessings.

This abundant blessing was Fatimah, through whose family, successorship of the Prophet (s), and leadership of the Muslim society continued.

The Prophet Visited Fatimah Every Day

Quote

The Prophet Visited Fatimah Every Day
According to the narrations, after Fatimah’s marriage, when her house was some distance away from her father’s, the Messenger of Allah (s) would go a long distance to her house every day to see her and say salām to her. Maybe this was why the Muslims chose a house near the Prophet’s for Fatimah.

Prophet Muhammad, the Kindest Grandfather
The Messenger of Allah (s) was very merciful towards his granddaughter, “Umama (أمامة),” Zainab’s daughter. He loved her a lot, and sometimes the Prophet would give her some gifts that were given to him.

The book Ṭabaqāt narrates: Once, the Noble Prophet (s) received a necklace. He faced his wives and said, “I will give it to the one who is dearer to me.” Then they saw that he gave the necklace to Umama

https://islam4u.pro/blog/how-many-daughters-did-prophet-muhammad-s-have/

 

Quote

Zayd b. Haritha (Arabic: زید بن حارثة), (d. 8/629), was the Prophet's (s) stepson; before that, he was the Prophet's (s) slave and was emancipated by him. He was one of the first people who converted to Islam and the only person from Sahaba (the Prophet's (s) immediate companions) whose name is mentioned in the Qur'an.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Zayd_b._Thabit

 

Quote

Abu l-qasim al-Kufi, shi'a scholar of 4th/10th century and, al-Sayyid Ja'far Murtada al-Amili, shi'a scholar of 15th/21st century, believe that Zaynab, Ruqayya and Umm Kulthum were not children of the Prophet (s) and Khadija; but their adopted children^[10]. Al-Sayyid Ja'far Murtada al-Amili authored a work entitled Banat al-Nabi am raba'ibuh? (lit. daughters of the Prophet (s) or his adopted children?) in order to prove this issue^[11].

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Children_of_Prophet_Muhammad_(s)

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

 

13 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Fabricated hadith that has no basis in Islam. Bring a authentic hadith please.

Salam this is typical dirty tactic of Wahabist which they call every narration which in favor of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as weak or fabricated while they call every narration for finding fault of commander of faithful imam Ali (عليه السلام) as authentic & strong 

To find fault with commander of the faithful [(عليه السلام)] Sunni Scholars and hadith narrators have quoted that when hadrat “Ali” [(عليه السلام)] was married to hadrat “Fatimah” [(عليه السلام)], he proposed to daughter of “Abu Jahl”, it caused hadrat “Fatimah” [(عليه السلام)] to get angry and complained of him to Prophet Muhammad!!! After hearing this incident, Messenger of Allah [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] went to mosque angrily and said:

“وَإِنَّ فَاطِمَةَ بَضْعَةٌ مِنِّي وَإِنِّي أَكْرَهُ أَنْ يَسُوءَهَا وَاللَّهِ لَا تَجْتَمِعُ بِنْتُ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّي اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَبِنْتُ عَدُوِّ اللَّهِ عِنْدَ رَجُلٍ وَاحِدٍ”

“Fatimah” is part of me and I don’t like someone to upset her, swear to god, the daughter of messenger of Allah [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] and daughter of the enemy of god shouldn’t be married to one person. {simultaneously}

“Sahih Bukhari” – vol. 4, p 212 – 213

And it’s written in another narrative that Prophet Muhammad said:

“إِلَّا أَنْ يُرِيدَ ابْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ أَنْ يُطَلِّقَ ابْنَتِي وَيَنْكِحَ ابْنَتَهُمْ فَإِنَّمَا هِيَ بَضْعَةٌ مِنِّي يُرِيبُنِي مَا أَرَابَهَا وَيُؤْذِينِي مَا آذَاهَا”

If “Ali ibn abi talib” [(عليه السلام)] wants to marry daughter of “Abu Jahl”, he should divorce my daughter. Fatimah is part of me, what makes her upset, makes me sad as well.

“Sahih Buhari” – vol. 6 , p 158 /// “Sahih Muslim” – vol. 7 , p 141

Since this matter is about ascribing fault to hadrat “Ali ibn abi talib” [(عليه السلام)], Sunni scholars have quoted it eagerly, as if they don’t know that “Uthman ibn Afan” got married with daughters of enemies of god while he was married to daughter of messenger of Allah [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] not even once but several times:

“Ramlah bint Shaybah” was one Uthman’s wives who married him in “Mecca” and was amongst those who emigrated to “Medina” with “Uthman”. “Ibn abd al-Barr” writes in this regard:

“رملة بنت شيبة بن ربيعة كانت من المهاجرات هاجرت مع زوجها عثمان بن عفان”

“Ramlah”, daughter of “Shaybah” was one of those who emigrated to “Medina” with his spouse.

Al-Isti’ab – vol. 4, p 1846

And “Shaybah” was one of the enemies of messenger of Allah [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] who was perished in the battle of “Badr”, as “Ibn Hajar” writes:

 

“Ramlah” daughter of “Shaybah” …. Her father was killed in the battle of “Badr”, while he was unbeliever.

Al-Isabah – vol. 8, p 142 and 143

It’s written that in that time “Ruqayyah” daughter of messenger of Allah [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] was married to “Uthman” as well. “Ibn Athir” writes in “Usud al-Ghabah”:

“ولما أسلم عثمان زوجّه رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم بابنته رقية وهاجرا كلاهما إلي أرض الحبشة الهجرتين ثم عاد إلي مكة وهاجر إلي المدينة”

When “Uthman” converted to Islam, messenger of Allah married his daughter off to him, both of them emigrated to “Habasha”, then when they returned from there, they emigrated to “Medina”.

Moreover, “Uthman” got married with “Umm al-Banin bint Ayinah” and “Fatimah bint Walid ibn Abd Shams”; while their fathers were the enemies of god in that time.

If marring daughter of messenger of Allah and daughter of the enemy of god was “Haram”, why did “Uthman” do this haram act over and over? And if it wasn’t “Haram”, why didn’t messenger of Allah [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] – according to Sunnis- didn’t let commander of the faithful [(عليه السلام)] to do so? So, we realize that either the matter of proposing daughter of “Abu Jahl” is amongst created things by “Banu Umayyah” to undermine the position of commander of the faithful [(عليه السلام)] or Islamic Prophet hasn’t had any daughter except hadrat “Fatimah”.

https://www.valiasr-aj.com/english/mobile_shownews.php?idnews=560

[Ashvazdanghe]

14 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Ali was brought as one of the sons, as the Prophet raised him and he was his last left son in law at the time. His other daughters had already died hence why Fatima only came.  Mubahila hasn't got anything to do with bringing the best people

5: “Muhammad Isma’il Bukhari” writes: someone came to “Abdullah ibn Umar” and asked him questions including his opinion about “Uthman” and Imam “Ali” [(عليه السلام)], he says about comparing hadrat “Ali” [(عليه السلام)] and “Uthman”:

أَمَّا عُثْمَانُ فَكَأَنَّ اللَّهَ عَفَا عَنْهُ وَأَمَّا أَنْتُمْ فَكَرِهْتُمْ أَنْ تَعْفُوا عَنْهُ وَأَمَّا عَلِيٌّ فَابْنُ عَمِّ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّي اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَخَتَنُهُ ...

But “Uthman”, almighty god forgave his sin {fleeing from the battle of Uhud}; but you don’t like to forgive him, but Imam “Ali ibn abi Talib” [(عليه السلام)] is messenger of Allah’s cousin and son-in-law.

Sahih Bukhari – vol. 5, p 157

As you see Abdullah ibn Umar’s support from “Uthman” is just summarized in this sentence that god has forgiven his sin in the battle of “Uhud”; but Shaba who arose against him didn’t forgive him and killed him; but he doesn’t mention that “Uthman” is Prophet Muhammad’s son-in-law, he says that hadrat “Ali” [(عليه السلام)] is messenger of Allah’s cousin and son-in-law.

Quote

If “Uthman” was Prophet’s son-in-law, “Ibn Umar” must have relied on it; because he’s left no stone unturned to fend any accusation from “Uthman” and it’s meaningless that he relies on weak reason when there is stronger reason like being Prophet’s son-in-law; because god’s forgiveness only contains those who stopped fleeing and returned after they found out that Prophet is alive, not “Uthman” who returned after three days, and even if god’s forgiveness includes “Uthman”, it won’t cause that god forgives sins that he committed later on as well, but it just contains his fleeing from the battlefield.

So, if “Uthman” were really Prophet’s son-in-law, “Ibn Umar” must have relied on it.

https://www.valiasr-aj.com/english/mobile_shownews.php?idnews=560

[Ashvazdanghe]

14 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

If you want to take the literal meaning of this hadith, after assuming "of me" to mean they are of the same rank, that would mean you say they are equal to the Prophet. You don't claim this.

6: Hadrat “Fatimah” [(عليه السلام)] went to mosque after “Fadak” garden was usurped by “Abu-Bakr” and delivered great sermon that some of Sunni scholars have quoted it. In some parts of that sermon, hadrat “Fatimah” [(عليه السلام)] says:

“أنا فاطمة بنت محمد أقول عودا علي بدء ، وما أقول ذلك سرفا ولا شططا... فإن تعزوه تجدوه أبي دون نسائكم وآخا ابن عمي دون رجالكم ، فبلغ الرسالة صادعا بالرسالة ناكبا عن سنن مدرجة المشركين ، ضاربا لثجهم آخذا بأكظامهم ، داعيا إلي سبيل ربه بالحكمة والموعظة الحسنة”

O people! Be aware that I’m “Fatimah” and my father is “Muhammad”, my saying is out of honesty and away from error… if you search, you’ll realize that {Islamic Prophet} was my father not the father of your wives, and was in brotherhood treaty with my cousin not you.

If Uthman’s wives were Prophet’s daughters, why didn’t “Fatimah” [(عليه السلام)] mention it? On the other hand “Uthman” could have protested to this saying of hadrat “Fatimah” [(عليه السلام)] that my wives were Prophet Muhammad’s daughters as well

7: “Ibn al-Damashqi” and “Muhib al-Din Tabari” write:

“أن رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم قال لعلي : أوتيت ثلاثا لم يؤتهن أحد ولا أنا ، أوتيت صهرا مثلي ولم أوت أنا مثلي ، وأوتيت زوجة صديقة مثل بنتي ولم أوت مثلها زوجة ، وأوتيت الحسن والحسين من صلبك ولم أوت من صلبي مثلهما ، ولكنكم مني وأنا منكم”

Messenger of Allah said to “Ali” [(عليه السلام)]: O “Ali”! Almighty god has given you three privileges that he’s neither given them to me nor any other person:

1: a father-in-law like me 2: honest wife.3: “Hassan” and “Husayn” [(عليه السلام)].

In this narrative Prophet Muhammad says explicitly that god hasn’t given anyone a father-in-law like me except “Ali ibn abi Talib”. So, it’s clarified that Prophet Muhammad [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] didn’t have another daughter otherwise he wouldn’t say such sentence.

https://www.valiasr-aj.com/english/mobile_shownews.php?idnews=560

[Ashvazdanghe]

14 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

e. It has to do with bringing your relatives. Even to this day when they happen between Sunnis and Shias that is done.

Mubahila: Prophet Brought Along Dearest Ones, Proving Islam’s Veracity

It [Muhabila] reveals that expressing the truth, promoting the truth is extremely important. He [Mohammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] presents them [his loved ones] before his challengers, in order to invoke God’s curse on deceivers. He challenges the opponents; saying any of us who is righteous may remain and the side against the truth may perish by God’s damnation

The same thing happened during the month of Muharram, when Imam Hussein ((عليه السلام).) brought his dear ones to the desert of Karbala in order to clarify the truth. He knew what was going to happen, yet he brought Zeinab, his wives, his children, and his brothers with him. Like the day of Mubahila, it was again a matter of clarifying the truth and promoting Islam, in the real sense of the word. His actions reveal the importance of promoting Islam. “If someone comes across a ruthless sultan who mixes up halal with haraam and breaks his promise to God, they deserve living with the sultan in the hereafter.” That is to say, when someone sees such a person, they should clarify the truth through their words and actions, just as Imam Hussein ((عليه السلام).) did; and, he paid the price for it. Imam Hussein ((عليه السلام)) brought his dear ones, his wives, and children to Karbala in order to clarify the truth.

https://shiastudies.com/en/16998/mubahila-prophet-brought-along-dearest-ones-proving-islams-veracity/

An Account Of The Mubahila (Imprecation) Ceremony

Uthman and Abdur Rahman bin Auf brought the Christians to Amirul Momineen ((عليه السلام).) and took counsel from His Eminence. Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) said: “Remove these silk garments and gold rings and go to meet the Prophet in ordinary clothes.” They followed this advice and again came to meet the Messenger of Allah (S).

 Abu Haritha told his companions, “If tomorrow, Muhammad comes with his family members and Ahlul Bayt ((عليه السلام).), you must beware of divine punishment and if he is accompanied by his companions and followers, you must not worry, and go ahead with the Mubahila ceremony.”
On the next day, the Messenger of Allah (S) came to the residence of Amirul Momineen ((عليه السلام).), took the hand of Imam Hasan ((عليه السلام).), picked up Imam Husain ((عليه السلام).) in his arms and Amirul Momineen ((عليه السلام).) walked before His Eminence and Lady Fatima Zahra (s.a.) followed the Messenger of Allah (S). In this way, these divine personalities came out in Medina. When they reached the Christians, Abu Haritha asked, “Who are these people with him?”
He was told, “The one walking in front is the cousin of Muhammad and the husband of his daughter and his most favorite person in the world’ and the two boys are the sons of this man; and the one walking behind, is his daughter, Fatima, the most beloved person for him in the world.” Thus His Eminence came forward and sat down to participate in the Mubahila ceremony. On the other hand Sayyid and Aqib took their boys and wanted to proceed for the ceremony.
Abu Haritha said, “Muhammad, is sitting in the style of prophets when they sit down for debates.” So they turned back from there and did not dare to take part in the Mubahila ceremony, Sayyid asked, “Where are you going?” Abu Haritha said, “If they had not been on truth he would not have dared us for this Mubahila ceremony. If they have Mubahila with us, the year will not pass that there will not remain and single Christian on the face of the earth.”

https://shiastudies.com/en/16957/account-mubahila-imprecation-ceremony/

[Abu_Zahra]

This debate always seemed a bit redundant to me. The Prophets and the Aimmah are not opposed to one another. In fact they all promote the same message and mission. Therefore I never really understood the relevance of trying to deduce who has a higher status when they are all on the same path and all of their words are equally important to us. 

[Abu_Bakr_]

Salam,

10 hours ago, ShiaMan14 said:

The evidence is in the translation you quoted brother:

 

So my question still stands.

A translator putting something in brackets is now evidence? I mean you can see multiple translations that don't have that part. The people who translated it, I assure you don't believe non-Prophets can be better. They probably meant that Prophets are the always the best of their nation? Maybe. Both ways what I said still stands:

"The verses mention several people that have the common factor of Prophethood and says they are better than the worlds. It goes on to say "Those are the ones to whom We gave the Scripture and authority and prophethood." The verse is very relevant. It claims they are better due to Prophethood in comparison  to all of creation."

9 hours ago, Cool said:

You will find in Quran the verses:

فَوَجَدَا عَبْدًا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا آتَيْنَاهُ رَحْمَةً مِنْ عِنْدِنَا وَعَلَّمْنَاهُ مِنْ لَدُنَّا عِلْمًا {65}

[Shakir 18:65] Then they found one from among Our servants whom We had granted mercy from Us and whom We had taught knowledge from Ourselves.

قَالَ لَهُ مُوسَىٰ هَلْ أَتَّبِعُكَ عَلَىٰ أَنْ تُعَلِّمَنِ مِمَّا عُلِّمْتَ رُشْدًا {66}

[Shakir 18:66] Musa said to him: Shall I follow you on condition that you should teach me right knowledge of what you have been taught?

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has introduced Khizr (عليه السلام) as His Abd (not as Prophet) in above verse and Musa (عليه السلام) being a Prophet unable to display patience with that Abd of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

My question, who appeared as "high in rank" among them in this story? The Abd (Khizr (عليه السلام)) or the Prophet (Musa (عليه السلام))?

lol, if I were to quote verses from al-Ahzaab, your belief on the very definition of sahaba would collapse. 

It always amuse me how you reject accepting the ahadith mentioning the merits of Ali (عليه السلام)

 

Musa (عليه السلام) is greater than Khidr according to all sects. Musa is of the Ulu-Azm. What does Khidr have to do with this when many people including Shias claim he was a Prophet. We read in Sahih Al-Bukhari:

 

، يَا مُوسَى إِنِّي عَلَى عِلْمٍ مِنْ عِلْمِ اللَّهِ عَلَّمَنِيهِ لاَ تَعْلَمُهُ أَنْتَ، وَأَنْتَ عَلَى عِلْمٍ عَلَّمَكَهُ لاَ أَعْلَمُهُ‏

 

Al-Khadir replied, "Verily! You will not be able to remain patient with me, O Moses! I have some of the knowledge of Allah which He has taught me and which you do not know, while you have some knowledge which Allah has taught you which I do not know."

 

10 hours ago, Cool said:

 

 Can you please quote where Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said it about others? I am sure you will bring ahadith like the ones which mentions doors, roof, windows of the city of knowledge.

 

You guys got upset with me using the word funny but use emojis like that. Anyway I will quote these AUTHENTIC hadiths. In the Musnad of Imam Ahmad

 

يرويها أبو بَرْزَةَ الأَسْلَمِىِّ ـ رضي الله عنه ـ فيقول : ( كانت الأنصار إذا كان لأحدهم أَيِّمٌ لَمْ يُزَوِّجْهَا حَتَّى يَعْلَمَ هل للنبي ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ فيها حاجة أم لا، فقال رسول الله ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ لرجل من الأنصار: زوجني ابنتك، فقال: نِعِمَّ وَكَرَامَةٌ يَا رسول الله، وَنُعْمَ عَيْنِى، فقال: إِنّى لسْتُ أُريدها لنفسي، قال: فَلِمَنْ يا رسول اللَّه؟ قال: لِجُلَيْبِيبٍ، قال: فقال: يا رسول الله أشاور أمها، فأتى أمها فقال: رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم يخطب ابنتك، فقالت: نعم، ونعمة عيني، فقال: إنه ليس يخطبها لنفسه، إنما يخطبها لجليبيب، فقالت: أَجُلَيْبِيبٌ ابْنَهْ؟، أَجُلَيْبِيبٌ ابْنَهْ؟! لاَ لَعَمْرُ اللَّهِ لاَ تُزَوَّجُهُ، فلما أراد أن يقوم ليأتي رسول الله ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ ليخبره بما قالت أمها، قالت الجارية: من خطبني إليكم؟ فأخبرتها أمها، فقالت: أتردون على رسول الله ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ أمره، ادفعوني فإنه لم يضيعني، فانطلق أبوها إلى رسول الله ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ فأخبره، قال: شأنك بها، فزوجها جليبيبا، قال: فخرج رسول الله ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ في غزوة له، قال: فلما أفاء الله عليه، قال لأصحابه: هل تفقدون من أحد؟ قالوا: نفقد فلانا، ونفقد فلانا، قال: انظروا هل تفقدون من أحد؟، قالوا: لا، قال: لكني أفقد جليبيبا، قال: فاطلبوه في القتلى، قال: فطلبوه، فوجدوه إلى جنب سبعة قد قتلهم، ثم قتلوه، فقالوا: يا رسول الله، ها هو ذا إلى جنب سبعة قد قتلهم، ثم قتلوه، فأتاه النبي ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ فقام عليه، فقال: قتل سبعة وقتلوه، هذا مني وأنا منه، هذا مني وأنا منه، مرتين، أو ثلاثا، ثم وضعه رسول الله ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ على ساعديه، وحفر له، ما له سرير إلا ساعدي رسول الله ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ، ثم وضعه في قبره، ولم يذكر أنه غسله ) رواه أحمد .
قال النووي: قوله ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ: ( هذا مني وأنا منه ): معناه المبالغة في اتحاد طريقتهما، واتفاقهما في طاعة الله تعالى "

 

Also in Sahih Al-Bukhari

 

حَدَّثَنَا مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْعَلاَءِ، حَدَّثَنَا حَمَّادُ بْنُ أُسَامَةَ، عَنْ بُرَيْدٍ، عَنْ أَبِي بُرْدَةَ، عَنْ أَبِي مُوسَى، قَالَ قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ إِنَّ الأَشْعَرِيِّينَ إِذَا أَرْمَلُوا فِي الْغَزْوِ، أَوْ قَلَّ طَعَامُ عِيَالِهِمْ بِالْمَدِينَةِ جَمَعُوا مَا كَانَ عِنْدَهُمْ فِي ثَوْبٍ وَاحِدٍ، ثُمَّ اقْتَسَمُوهُ بَيْنَهُمْ فِي إِنَاءٍ وَاحِدٍ بِالسَّوِيَّةِ، فَهُمْ مِنِّي وَأَنَا مِنْهُمْ ‏"‏‏.‏

 

Narrated Abu Musa:

The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "When the people of Ash`ari tribe ran short of food during the holy battles, or the food of their families in Medina ran short, they would collect all their remaining food in one sheet and then distribute it among themselves equally by measuring it with a bowl. So, these people are from me, and I am from them."

 

رضي الله عن جميع الصحابة

 

10 hours ago, Cool said:

 

 what a great idea!!

يقول‌ محبّ الدين‌ الطبريّ: [3] عَنِ ابنِ عُمَرَ قَالَ: آخِي‌ رَسُولُ اللهِ
 صَلَّي‌ اللَهُ عَلَيْهِ ] وَ آلهِ [ وَ سَلَّمَ بَينَ أَصْحَابِهِ فَجاءَ عَلِيٌّ تَدْمَعُ عَيْنَاهُ، فَقَالَ: يَا رَسُولَ اللَهِ! آخَيْتَ بَيْنَ أَصْحَابِكَ وَ لَمْ تُؤاخِ بَينِي‌ وَ بَينَ أَحَدٍ؟ قَالَ لَهُ رَسُولُ اللَهِ صَلَّي‌ اللَهُ عَلَيْهِ ] وَ آلهِ [ وَ سَلَّمَ: أَنْتَ أَخِي‌ فِي‌ الدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ.

عن‌ الإمام‌ أحمد بن‌ حنبل‌: إِنَّ النَبِيّ صَلَّي‌ اللَه‌ ُ عَلَيهِ وَ آلِهِ وَ سَلَّمَ قَالَ لَهُ لَمَّا قَالَ: آخَيتَ بَينَ أَصحَابِكَ وَ تَركْتَنِي‌؟ قَالَ: وَ لِمَ تَرَانِي‌ تَرَكْتُكَ؟ إِنَّمَا تَرَكتُكَ لِنَفْسِي‌، أَنْتَ أَخِي‌ وَ أَنَا أَخُوكَ

يقول‌ ابن‌ الاثير: وَ آخَاهُ رَسُولُ اللَهِ صَلَّي‌ اللَهُ عَلَيْهِ ] وَ آلِهِ [ وَسَلَّمَ مَرَّتَينِ، فَإِنَّ رَسُولَ اللَهِ آخَي‌ بَينَ المُهَاجِرينَ، ثُمَّ آخَي‌ بَينَ الْمُهَاجِرِينَ وَالانصَارِ بَعْدَ الْهِجْرَةِ، وَ قَالَ لِعَليٍّ فِي‌ كُلِّ واحِدَةٍ مِنهُمَا: أَنتَ أَخِي‌ فِي‌ الدُّنيَا وَالآخِرَةِ.

عن‌ أحمد بن‌ حنبل‌ في‌ مسنده‌ بسنده‌ المتّصل‌ عن‌ مخدوج‌ ابن‌ زيد الهُذليّ أنـّه‌ قالَ: إِنَّ رَسُولَ اللهِ صَلّي‌ اللَهُ عَلَيهِ ] وَ آلِهِ [ وَ سَلَّمَ آخَي‌ بَينَ الْمُسلِمينَ، ثُمَّ قَالَ: يَا عِلِيُّ! أنتَ أَخِي‌ وَ أَنتَ مِنّي‌ بِمَنزِلَةِ هَارونَ مِنْ مُوسَي‌ إِلاَّ أَنَّهُ لاَنَبِيَّ بَعْدِي‌ ـ إلی‌ أن‌ قَالَ: صَلّي‌ اللهُ عَلَيهِ ] وَ آلِهِ [ وَ سَلَّمَ: ثُمَّ يُنَادِي‌ المُنَادِي‌ مِن‌ عِندِ العَرشِ: نِعْمَ الابُ أَبُوكَ إِبراهِيمُ، وَ نِعْمَ الاخُ أَخُوكَ علی

روي‌ ابن‌ الصبّاغ‌ المالكيّ عن‌ ضياء الدين‌ الخوارزميّ عن‌ ابن‌ عبّاس‌ أنـّه‌ قَالَ: لَمّا آخَي‌ رَسُولُ اللَهِ صَلَّي‌ اللَهُ عَلَيهِ وَآلِهِ وَ سَلَّمَ بَيْنَ أصْحَابِهِ مِنَ الْمُهَاجِرينَ وَالانصارِ وَ هُوَ أَنـّهُ آخَي‌ بَيْنَ أَبِي‌ بَكرٍ وَ عُمَرَ وَآخَي‌ بَينَ عُثمَانَ وَ عَبدِ الرَّحمـنِ بنِ عَوفٍ، وَ آخَي‌ بَينَ طَلْحَةَ وَالزُّبَيرِ
 وَ آخَي‌ بَينَ أبي‌ذَرٍّ الغِفَاريِّ وَالْمِقدادِ، وَ لَمْ يُواخِ بَينَ عَلِيِّ بنِ أَبي‌ طالِبٍ وَبَينَ أَحدٍ مِنهُمْ، خَرَجَ عَلِيٌّ مُغضِباً حَتَّي‌ أتي‌ جَدْوَلاً مِنَ الارضِ وَ تَوَسَّدَ ذِراعَهُ وَ نَامَ فِيهِ، تَسْفِي‌ الرِّيحُ عَلَيْهِ، فَطَلَبَهُ النَّبِي‌ صَلَّي‌ اللَهُ عَلَيهِ وَآلِهِ وَ سَلَّمَ فَوَجَدَهُ علی تِلكَ الصِّفَةَ فَوَكَزَهُ بِرِجلِهِ وَ قَالَ لَهُ: قُم‌ فَما صَلَحْتَ أن‌ تَكُونَ إلاَّ أَبا تُرابٍ، أَغَضِبْتَ حِينَ آخَيتُ بَينَ المُهَاجِرينَ وَالانصارِ وَ لَمْ أُواخِ بَيْنَكَ وَ بَينَ أَحَدٍ مِنهُمْ؟ أَمَا تَرضَي‌ أَنْ تَكُونَ مِنّي‌ بِمَنزِلَةِ هَارونَ مِن‌ مُوسَي‌ إِلاَّ أنَّهُ لاَ نَبِيّ بَعْدِي‌. أَلاَ مَن‌ أَحَبَّكَ، فَقَد حُفَّ بِالاْمنِ وَا لإيمانِ. وَمَن‌ أَبْغَضَكَ، أَماتَهُ اللَهُ مِيتَةً جَاهِلِيّةً

I have yet to quote ahadith which mentions the creation of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Ali (عليه السلام) from one noor.

You seem to love mentioning weak Hadiths. A lot that have nothing to do with this topic. It is easy to throw 5-10 hadiths at some one and waste their time explaining how this one is weak and this one had nothing to do with the topic. Easy to copy and paste from this website with no real effort and not understanding anything:
https://motaghin.com/ar_Articlepage_2955.aspx?gid=31
For example, you have used sources that Sunnis don't rely upon at all. Like Al-Khawarizmi. Also you have added a part of a narration in "Yanabii Al-Mawadah" (another book sunnis don't rely on) to Musnad Ahmad. It's shows a lack of sincerity. 

I'll save you time. Hadith of the Prophet and Ali from one Nur is not authentic. I haven't even seen a reliable source for it yet, let alone an authentic isnad. Shias claim that Aqeedah has to be built upon Mutawatir Hadith but you are building upon fabrications and weak hadith.

9 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Essential creedal Shi'i belief?! That's a stretch...at most, it's a theory/belief held by some laypeople and I'm assuming some scholars...the theory has some pretty solid reasoning behind it...you yourselves believes Umar and Bilal's (r) footsteps will be heard in Jannah before the Prophet's (s) 

I mean that is what Al-Khomenei claimed. Reality aids his views. If a Shia scholar or Marji' would say opposite to this, the whole Shia world would be out against him calling him "Muqassir". Sayyed Fadlullah said much less yet the fatwas from Shia scholars came out against him.

2 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

This debate always seemed a bit redundant to me. The Prophets and the Aimmah are not opposed to one another. In fact they all promote the same message and mission. Therefore I never really understood the relevance of trying to deduce who has a higher status when they are all on the same path and all of their words are equally important to us. 

You claim it is redundant but Shia scholars call it a essential belief. If someone became Shia he would follow these scholars with all due respect.

 

2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam this is pure nonsense from Wahabi apologetics  which prophet Muhammad (pbu) has adopted Zayd b. Haritha as his stepson which although his name has been mentioned in holy Quran but he has not brough him into Mubahila in similar fashion prophet (pbu) has adopted daughters from sister of lady Khadija (sa) which lady Fatima has been his only real daughter also your logic about  bringing relatives to Mubahila is void because holy Quran doesn't mention bringing relatives to Mubahila which it has been mentioned that Muslims (ie prophet) & Christians bring best of themselves from their Nafs (brother) & women & children .

 

 

 

You have done several lengthy posts with a lot of copy and paste. Most not related to this topic. I will try and answer only the related parts due to time.

 

Ali is related to the Prophet, part of the Ahlul-Bayt and his son in Law. Very different to Zayd. That is all you have mentioned worth a comment. Easy to accuse people of being "Wahabi" with no evidence. Shias really don't know much about Sunni circles if you think only Salafis have a theological problem with Shias.

 

والله أعلى وأعلم

 

[Cool]

On 9/20/2023 at 6:37 PM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Musa (عليه السلام) is greater than Khidr according to all sects. Musa is of the Ulu-Azm. What does Khidr have to do with this when many people including Shias claim he was a Prophet

I think what I pointed you, gone above your head. So it is a usual lack of your understanding. 

By the way, what are the basis of your claim that Musa (عليه السلام) is greater than Khizr (عليه السلام) while you haven't even sensed & witnessed the "azm" of Khizr ams?

So you are trying to judge a person who was not even given the opportunity to show his azm.  Bang!!

On 9/20/2023 at 6:37 PM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

You guys got upset with me using the word funny but use emojis like that

It seems you are getting upset from that emoji lol. 

On 9/20/2023 at 6:37 PM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

قال النووي: قوله ـ صلى الله عليه وسلم ـ: ( هذا مني وأنا منه ): معناه المبالغة في اتحاد طريقتهما، واتفاقهما في طاعة الله تعالى

I am 100% agreed with this interpretation of your scholar. No doubt جليبيب (رضي الله عنه) and all the great ones among companions, like Salman (رضي الله عنه) & Abuzar (رضي الله عنه),  who were honored by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) with these words, are our hero. 

What is funny here that you don't even understand what you are comparing with! The phrase of hadith referred by me from your books is here:

عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه قال: حسين مني وأنا من حسين ، أحب الله من أحب حسينا، الحسين سبط من الأسباط.

This "minniyat" is not comparable to anyone and neither it is a مبالغة.

On 9/20/2023 at 6:37 PM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

عَنْ أَبِي مُوسَى، قَالَ قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ إِنَّ الأَشْعَرِيِّينَ إِذَا أَرْمَلُوا فِي الْغَزْوِ، أَوْ قَلَّ طَعَامُ عِيَالِهِمْ بِالْمَدِينَةِ جَمَعُوا مَا كَانَ عِنْدَهُمْ فِي ثَوْبٍ وَاحِدٍ، ثُمَّ اقْتَسَمُوهُ بَيْنَهُمْ فِي إِنَاءٍ وَاحِدٍ بِالسَّوِيَّةِ، فَهُمْ مِنِّي وَأَنَا مِنْهُمْ ‏"‏‏.‏

Lol, So Abu Musa Ash'ari has also invented something for his tribe, lol. 

Bring something serious, not comedy. 

[Guest Stranger]

On 9/20/2023 at 9:37 AM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Salam,

A translator putting something in brackets is now evidence? I mean you can see multiple translations that don't have that part. The people who translated it, I assure you don't believe non-Prophets can be better. They probably meant that Prophets are the always the best of their nation? Maybe. Both ways what I said still stands:

"The verses mention several people that have the common factor of Prophethood and says they are better than the worlds. It goes on to say "Those are the ones to whom We gave the Scripture and authority and prophethood." The verse is very relevant. It claims they are better due to Prophethood in comparison  to all of creation."

Salam

There are four ways to respond:

(1) Mohammad (s) is part of the group of Anbiya since he is in both sets Anbiya (a) and Ahlulbayt (a), you can say either are best of creation and it would be linguistically correct.

(2) There are generalizations in language, for example, the Quran says the Messengers before Mohammad (s) have passed away, and use the "al" which means universally all, but we know Isa (a), Elyas (a), Khidr (a) (potentially a Messenger, not sure). Idris (a) are alive. Similarly it says the offspring of his people were the only ones to believe in Musa (a) out of fear of Pharaoh and his chiefs, but we see the sorcerers accepted Musa (a), as well as the believer from the family of Pharaoh who hid his faith.  

(3) The Quran does emphasize here Book, Judgment, and Prophethood are given to these people which to me is emphasis the book is a hukim, and the hukim is nubuwa, but you can be given into two ways: Directly the book or by inheritance.  What I mean by the latter, is that they are given the knowledge of the book and it proves their authority, and so they are given the authority vested by Quran through Mohammad (s) and the Quranic verses appoint them.  So while they aren't given scripture to channel to people, they are entrusted to safeguard the Quran and while they aren't given a scripture as proof of their own authority, the Quran proves their authority. As you can see the "hukim" is governance and judgment, and while they are given a revelation to channel people of that nature, they are entrusted to rule by the Quran and interpret it's implementation.

(4) It can be as other members said better than people of their times, and this would not mean scholars can be on par, because scholars are not chosen before coming to this world and are volatile.  Even Zainab (a) and Abbas (a) they didn't sin ,and were eventually granted protection (Isma), but they gained that in this world. They were not pre-chosen. 

[Cool]

2 hours ago, Cool said:

 

عَنْ أَبِي مُوسَى، قَالَ قَالَ النَّبِيُّ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏ "‏ إِنَّ الأَشْعَرِيِّينَ إِذَا أَرْمَلُوا فِي الْغَزْوِ، أَوْ قَلَّ طَعَامُ عِيَالِهِمْ بِالْمَدِينَةِ جَمَعُوا مَا كَانَ عِنْدَهُمْ فِي ثَوْبٍ وَاحِدٍ، ثُمَّ اقْتَسَمُوهُ بَيْنَهُمْ فِي إِنَاءٍ وَاحِدٍ بِالسَّوِيَّةِ، فَهُمْ مِنِّي وَأَنَا مِنْهُمْ

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.islamweb.net/amp/ar/library/content/60/183/%D8%A3%D8%A8%D9%88-%D9%85%D9%88%D8%B3%D9%89-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B4%D8%B9%D8%B1%D9%8A%3fidfrom=215&idto=216&start=0

الأعمش ، عن شقيق ، قال : كنا مع حذيفة جلوسا ، فدخل عبد الله [ ص: 394 ] وأبو موسى المسجد فقال : أحدهما منافق ، ثم قال : إن أشبه الناس هديا ودلا وسمتا برسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم- عبد الله .
 

 

[Abu_Bakr_]

Salam,

 

5 hours ago, Cool said:

I think what I pointed you, gone above your head. So it is a usual lack of your understanding. 

By the way, what are the basis of your claim that Musa (عليه السلام) is greater than Khizr (عليه السلام) while you haven't even sensed & witnessed the "azm" of Khizr ams?

So you are trying to judge a person who was not even given the opportunity to show his azm.  Bang!!

 

???

Do you claim Khidr is greater then Musa? Yes or no?

5 hours ago, Cool said:

 

It seems you are getting upset from that emoji lol. 

 

I do not mind at all. It was your friend that got upset that I used the word "Funny".

5 hours ago, Cool said:

 

I am 100% agreed with this interpretation of your scholar. No doubt جليبيب (رضي الله عنه) and all the great ones among companions, like Salman (رضي الله عنه) & Abuzar (رضي الله عنه),  who were honored by Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) with these words, are our hero. 

What is funny here that you don't even understand what you are comparing with! The phrase of hadith referred by me from your books is here:

عن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه قال: حسين مني وأنا من حسين ، أحب الله من أحب حسينا، الحسين سبط من الأسباط.

This "minniyat" is not comparable to anyone and neither it is a مبالغة.

 

The Prophet used the same words but they are not comparable?

 

Furthermore, you clearly do not understand Arabic if you think any part of that Hadith gives Hussain (رضي الله عنه) a greater status than the other Prophets.

5 hours ago, Cool said:

 

Lol, So Abu Musa Ash'ari has also invented something for his tribe, lol. 

Bring something serious, not comedy. 

The same Abu Musa (رضي الله عنه) that Ali (رضي الله عنه) agreed to represent him? Anyhow you are going off topic with this one. 

 

2 hours ago, Cool said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.islamweb.net/amp/ar/library/content/60/183/%D8%A3%D8%A8%D9%88-%D9%85%D9%88%D8%B3%D9%89-%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%B4%D8%B9%D8%B1%D9%8A%3fidfrom=215&idto=216&start=0

الأعمش ، عن شقيق ، قال : كنا مع حذيفة جلوسا ، فدخل عبد الله [ ص: 394 ] وأبو موسى المسجد فقال : أحدهما منافق ، ثم قال : إن أشبه الناس هديا ودلا وسمتا برسول الله - صلى الله عليه وسلم- عبد الله .
 

 

See how we are talking about a topic nothing to do with this, yet you have no answer so you start opening up new topics left and right. Imam Ad-Dhabbi says about this report:

سمعه عبد الله بن نمير منه ، ثم يقول الأعمش : حدثناهم بغضب أصحاب محمد - صلى الله عليه وسلم- فاتخذوه دينا .

قال عبد الله بن إدريس : كان الأعمش به ديانة من خشيته .

قلت : رمي الأعمش بيسير تشيع فما أدري .

[Ibn Tayyar]

The word "al-alameen" has been used in the Holy Qur'an to mean "all times/worlds", such as in Surat Al-Fatiha, or to mean specific times/worlds, such as when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentions that he chose the Israelities from the alameen.

And so this Verse is subject to tafsir and ta'weel, you have your own tafsir and we have ours.

[Cool]

8 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

??

Do you claim Khidr is greater then Musa? Yes or no?

There is no yes & no here. I don't know much about Khizr (عليه السلام) except what is mentioned in Quran.

As I mentioned a verse of Quran earlier in which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has introduced Khizr (عليه السلام) as his Abd:

On 9/20/2023 at 8:05 AM, Cool said:

عَبْدًا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا

I was referring a case and pointed out that Musa (عليه السلام) were unable to be patient with him. So who appeared as knowledgeable and patient there in that specific case? 

And you instead of responding to that specific case bringing ulil azmi of Musa (عليه السلام). So according to your books of hadith Musa (عليه السلام) is even greater than Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as he continuously advising Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to request to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to further reduce the number of units of daily prayers lol. How funny!!

8 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

The Prophet used the same words but they are not comparable?

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) used the words after his martyrdom not in his life time. So this is clearly a different story.

For Salman (رضي الله عنه), we have report where Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said in his lifetime:

سلمان منا أهل البيت

For Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), Prophet used these words in their very life times. What is the difference? If anyone from the Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام، deviated from the path like Abu Musa al-Ash'ari deviated, what effect will it produce on the words و انا  منهم?  Or on و انا من حسين? 

For Abu Musa al-Ash'ari, we know very well about him.

"Now, I have come to know of words uttered by you which go in your favour as well as against you. 1 So, when my messenger reaches you prepare yourself and get ready, come out of your den and call those who are with you. Then, if you are convinced of the truth get up but if you feel cowardice go away. By Allah, you will be caught wherever you may be and you will not be spared till you are completely upset and everything about you is scattered and till you are shaken from your seat. Then, you will fear from your front as you do from the rear.

أَمَّا بَعْدُ، فَقَدْ بَلَغَنِي عَنْكَ قَوْلٌ هُوَ لَكَ وَعَلَيْكَ، فإذَا قَدِمَ عَلَيْكَ رَسُولي فارْفَعْ ذَيْلَكَ، واشْدُدْ مِئْزَرَكَ، واخْرُجْ مِنْ جُحْرِكَ، وَانْدُبْ مَنْ مَعَكَ، فَإِنْ حَقَّقْتَ فَانْفُذْ، وَإِنْ تَفَشَّلْتَ فَابْعُدْ! وَايْمُ اللهِ لَتُؤْتَيَنَّ حَيْثُ أَنْتَ، وَلاَ تُتْرَكُ حَتَّى يُخْلَطَ زُبْدُكَ بِخَاثِرِكَ، وَذَائِبُكَ بِجَامِدِكَ، وَحَتَّى تُعْجَلَ عَنْ قِعْدَتِكَ، وَتَحْذَرَ مِنْ أَمَامِكَ كَحَذَرِكَ مِنْ خَلْفِكَ،

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-63-abu-musa-al-ashari-when-amir-al-muminin-learned

"He was chosen as the arbitrator of Imam Ali's side. Imam (a) was not pleased with selecting Abu Musa as the arbitrator, but he had to accept it as his soldiers forced him. Consequently, Abu Musa was tricked and deceived by 'Amr b. al-'As who was the arbitrator of Mu'awiya."

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Abu_Musa_al-Ash'ari#:~:text=As it is concluded%2C Abu,any other as the arbitrator.

وروى الشيخ المفيد في أماليه عن عليّ (عليه السلام) ـ بشأن أبي موسى ـ: " والله ما كان عندي مؤتمناً ولا ناصحاً، ولقد كان الّذين تقدّموني استولوا على مودّته، وولّوه وسلّطوه بالإمرة على الناس، ولقد أردت عزله فسألني الأشتر فيه أن أقرّه، فأقررته على كره منّي له، وتحمّلت على صرفه من بعد

His problems with Imam Ali (عليه السلام) are well known from the beginning. A case of Battle of Jamal is also recorded as:

ذكر المسعودي في مروج الذهب: " إنّ أبا موسى ثبّط الناس عن عليّ (عليه السلام) في حـرب الجـمل، فعزله عن الكوفـة وكتب إليه: " اعتزل عملنا يا بـن الحائك مذموماً مدحـوراً، فما هذا أوّل يومنا منك، وإنّ لك فينا لهنّات وهنيّات

 

8 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

See how we are talking about a topic nothing to do with this,

Since you quoted the name of Abu Musa al-Ash'ari and mentioned a hadith for the whole Ash'ari tribe lol, I thought to show you reference of a record present in your books, mentioning the same Ash'ari as munafiq. It was your scholar الذهبي who referred this in his book. 

8 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

ثم يقول الأعمش : حدثناهم بغضب أصحاب محمد - صلى الله عليه وسلم- فاتخذوه دينا .

What Dhahabi's opinion about it is of no worth for us. What worth for us is the report he cited which mentions Abu Musa al-Ash'ari as munafiq. 

Edited September 22 by Cool

[Cool]

2 hours ago, Cool said:

What Dhahabi's opinion about it is of no worth for us. What worth for us is the report he cited which mentions Abu Musa al-Ash'ari as munafiq. 

We know what engineering has been done in your hadith corpus to protect Abu Musa & his likes. Here is an example:

حدثنا الفضل بن دكين عن الوليد بن جميع عن أبي الطفيل قال: كان بين حذيفة وبين رجل منهم من أهل العقبة بعض ما يكون بين الناس، فقال: أنشدك بالله، كم كان أصحاب العقبة؟ فقال القوم: فأخبره فقد سألك، فقال أبو موسى الأشعري: قد كنا نخبر أنهم أربعة عشر، فقال حذيفة، وإن كنت فيهم فقد كانوا خمسة عشر، أشهد بالله أن اثني عشر منهم حزب الله ورسوله في الحياة الدنيا ويوم يقوم الاشهاد، وعذر ثلاثة، قالوا: ما سمعنا منادي رسول الله (ص) ولا علمنا ما يريد القوم.

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1911_المصنف-ابن-أبي-شيبة-الكوفي-ج-٨/الصفحة_588#:~:text=(4) حدثنا الفضل بن دكين,بالله، كم كان أصحاب العقبة؟

This is from ibn Abi Shaybah. Now lets see the same hadith from masnad:

كان بين حذيفة وبين رجل من أهل العقبة ما يكون بين الناس فقال: أنشدك الله كم كان أصحاب العقبة؟ فقال له القوم: أخبره إذ سألك ، قال: إن كنا نخبر أنهم أربعة عشر . وقال أبو نعيم فقال الرجل كنا نخبر أنهم أربعة عشر قال: فإن كنت منهم وقال أبونعيم فيهم ، فقد كان القوم خمسة عشر . وأشهد بالله أن اثني عشر منهم حرب لله ولرسوله (ص) في الحياة الدنيا ويوم يقوم الأشهاد

صحيح مسلم 4 / 2144 ح 11, و مسند أحمد:5/390

 

[Abu_Bakr_]

4 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

The word "al-alameen" has been used in the Holy Qur'an to mean "all times/worlds", such as in Surat Al-Fatiha, or to mean specific times/worlds, such as when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentions that he chose the Israelities from the alameen.

And so this Verse is subject to tafsir and ta'weel, you have your own tafsir and we have ours.

I have already stated the Shia evidence is weak and explained how. It isn't allowed to not take the apparent meaning with no evidence, let alone the clear cut meaning.

4 hours ago, Cool said:

There is no yes & no here. I don't know much about Khizr (عليه السلام) except what is mentioned in Quran.

As I mentioned a verse of Quran earlier in which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has introduced Khizr (عليه السلام) as his Abd:

I was referring a case and pointed out that Musa (عليه السلام) were unable to be patient with him. So who appeared as knowledgeable and patient there in that specific case? 

 

I have already explained and quoted the part of the Hadith. "Al-Khadir replied, "Verily! You will not be able to remain patient with me, O Moses! I have some of the knowledge of Allah which He has taught me and which you do not know, while you have some knowledge which Allah has taught you which I do not know.""

 

This actually goes back to another Problem shias have. They can't seem to differentiate between being better in a specific way and being better overall. 

 

No contradiction between being introduced as an Abd and being a Prophet. Our Prophet was introduced as an Abd in the first verse of Surah Al-Isra.

4 hours ago, Cool said:

 

And you instead of responding to that specific case bringing ulil azmi of Musa (عليه السلام). So according to your books of hadith Musa (عليه السلام) is even greater than Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as he continuously advising Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) to request to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to further reduce the number of units of daily prayers lol. How funny!!

 

?????????

Severe confusion in a majority of your posts. Study mantiq maybe? I don't know what to say to such a comment.

4 hours ago, Cool said:

 

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) used the words after his martyrdom not in his life time. So this is clearly a different story.

 

Source of it being different: Your imagination?

4 hours ago, Cool said:

 

For Salman (رضي الله عنه), we have report where Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said in his lifetime:

سلمان منا أهل البيت

 

Fabricated Hadith that invalidates your point lol. Clearly shows that "min" doesn't have anything to do with being better than the Prophets.

4 hours ago, Cool said:

 

For Abu Musa al-Ash'ari, we know very well about him.

"Now, I have come to know of words uttered by you which go in your favour as well as against you. 1 So, when my messenger reaches you prepare yourself and get ready, come out of your den and call those who are with you. Then, if you are convinced of the truth get up but if you feel cowardice go away. By Allah, you will be caught wherever you may be and you will not be spared till you are completely upset and everything about you is scattered and till you are shaken from your seat. Then, you will fear from your front as you do from the rear.

أَمَّا بَعْدُ، فَقَدْ بَلَغَنِي عَنْكَ قَوْلٌ هُوَ لَكَ وَعَلَيْكَ، فإذَا قَدِمَ عَلَيْكَ رَسُولي فارْفَعْ ذَيْلَكَ، واشْدُدْ مِئْزَرَكَ، واخْرُجْ مِنْ جُحْرِكَ، وَانْدُبْ مَنْ مَعَكَ، فَإِنْ حَقَّقْتَ فَانْفُذْ، وَإِنْ تَفَشَّلْتَ فَابْعُدْ! وَايْمُ اللهِ لَتُؤْتَيَنَّ حَيْثُ أَنْتَ، وَلاَ تُتْرَكُ حَتَّى يُخْلَطَ زُبْدُكَ بِخَاثِرِكَ، وَذَائِبُكَ بِجَامِدِكَ، وَحَتَّى تُعْجَلَ عَنْ قِعْدَتِكَ، وَتَحْذَرَ مِنْ أَمَامِكَ كَحَذَرِكَ مِنْ خَلْفِكَ،

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-2-letters-and-sayings/letter-63-abu-musa-al-ashari-when-amir-al-muminin-learned

"He was chosen as the arbitrator of Imam Ali's side. Imam (a) was not pleased with selecting Abu Musa as the arbitrator, but he had to accept it as his soldiers forced him. Consequently, Abu Musa was tricked and deceived by 'Amr b. al-'As who was the arbitrator of Mu'awiya."

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Abu_Musa_al-Ash'ari#:~:text=As it is concluded%2C Abu,any other as the arbitrator.

وروى الشيخ المفيد في أماليه عن عليّ (عليه السلام) ـ بشأن أبي موسى ـ: " والله ما كان عندي مؤتمناً ولا ناصحاً، ولقد كان الّذين تقدّموني استولوا على مودّته، وولّوه وسلّطوه بالإمرة على الناس، ولقد أردت عزله فسألني الأشتر فيه أن أقرّه، فأقررته على كره منّي له، وتحمّلت على صرفه من بعد

His problems with Imam Ali (عليه السلام) are well known from the beginning. A case of Battle of Jamal is also recorded as:

ذكر المسعودي في مروج الذهب: " إنّ أبا موسى ثبّط الناس عن عليّ (عليه السلام) في حـرب الجـمل، فعزله عن الكوفـة وكتب إليه: " اعتزل عملنا يا بـن الحائك مذموماً مدحـوراً، فما هذا أوّل يومنا منك، وإنّ لك فينا لهنّات وهنيّات

 

Quoting Nahj Al-Balagah and other Shia books? I am Sunni fi you forgot. Not a reliable source.

"Imam Ali was forced by his soldiers" like seriously? Makes no sense at all. Is this the same way that Al-Hassan was "forced" to pledge allegiance to Muawiyah only for his soldiers to insult him for doing so? History never adds up for Shias. The Khawarij of Nahrawan literally fought Ali because he approved the hakamayn. You can try your best to reinterpret Quran and Sunnah but sometimes history exposes you.

4 hours ago, Cool said:

 

Since you quoted the name of Abu Musa al-Ash'ari and mentioned a hadith for the whole Ash'ari tribe lol, I thought to show you reference of a record present in your books, mentioning the same Ash'ari as munafiq. It was your scholar الذهبي who referred this in his book. 

What Dhahabi's opinion about it is of no worth for us. What worth for us is the report he cited which mentions Abu Musa al-Ash'ari as munafiq. 

I wasn't really quoting Dhahabi I was quoting Al-'Amash. The narrator of the story literally saying "We narrated to them the anger of the Companions and they made it (insulting the Companions) religion"

You will find many examples of this. For example, Al-Abbas insulting his nephew Ali! Even in Shia books Aqeel goes against Ali and sides with Muawiyah.

May Allah be pleased with all the Companions.

2 hours ago, Cool said:

We know what engineering has been done in your hadith corpus to protect Abu Musa & his likes. Here is an example:

حدثنا الفضل بن دكين عن الوليد بن جميع عن أبي الطفيل قال: كان بين حذيفة وبين رجل منهم من أهل العقبة بعض ما يكون بين الناس، فقال: أنشدك بالله، كم كان أصحاب العقبة؟ فقال القوم: فأخبره فقد سألك، فقال أبو موسى الأشعري: قد كنا نخبر أنهم أربعة عشر، فقال حذيفة، وإن كنت فيهم فقد كانوا خمسة عشر، أشهد بالله أن اثني عشر منهم حزب الله ورسوله في الحياة الدنيا ويوم يقوم الاشهاد، وعذر ثلاثة، قالوا: ما سمعنا منادي رسول الله (ص) ولا علمنا ما يريد القوم.

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1911_المصنف-ابن-أبي-شيبة-الكوفي-ج-٨/الصفحة_588#:~:text=(4) حدثنا الفضل بن دكين,بالله، كم كان أصحاب العقبة؟

This is from ibn Abi Shaybah. Now lets see the same hadith from masnad:

كان بين حذيفة وبين رجل من أهل العقبة ما يكون بين الناس فقال: أنشدك الله كم كان أصحاب العقبة؟ فقال له القوم: أخبره إذ سألك ، قال: إن كنا نخبر أنهم أربعة عشر . وقال أبو نعيم فقال الرجل كنا نخبر أنهم أربعة عشر قال: فإن كنت منهم وقال أبونعيم فيهم ، فقد كان القوم خمسة عشر . وأشهد بالله أن اثني عشر منهم حرب لله ولرسوله (ص) في الحياة الدنيا ويوم يقوم الأشهاد

صحيح مسلم 4 / 2144 ح 11, و مسند أحمد:5/390

 

The first narration point to the person being someone apart from Abu-Musa Al-Ashari. Hence why he wasn't named while Abu Musa was. The part of the report:

 

وإن كنت فيهم فقد كانوا خمسة عشر

 

 Was to the initial person asking not Abu Musa. Also view this:

https://www.ajurry.com/vb/forum/منابر-المتون-العلمية-وشروحها/منبر-الحديث-وعلومه/27091-بيان-بطلان-خبر-اتهام-حذيفة-لأبي-موسى-الأشعري-بالنفاق

 

[Abu_Bakr_]

Salam

 

18 hours ago, Guest Stranger said:

Salam

There are four ways to respond:

(1) Mohammad (s) is part of the group of Anbiya since he is in both sets Anbiya (a) and Ahlulbayt (a), you can say either are best of creation and it would be linguistically correct.

(2) There are generalizations in language, for example, the Quran says the Messengers before Mohammad (s) have passed away, and use the "al" which means universally all, but we know Isa (a), Elyas (a), Khidr (a) (potentially a Messenger, not sure). Idris (a) are alive. Similarly it says the offspring of his people were the only ones to believe in Musa (a) out of fear of Pharaoh and his chiefs, but we see the sorcerers accepted Musa (a), as well as the believer from the family of Pharaoh who hid his faith.  

(3) The Quran does emphasize here Book, Judgment, and Prophethood are given to these people which to me is emphasis the book is a hukim, and the hukim is nubuwa, but you can be given into two ways: Directly the book or by inheritance.  What I mean by the latter, is that they are given the knowledge of the book and it proves their authority, and so they are given the authority vested by Quran through Mohammad (s) and the Quranic verses appoint them.  So while they aren't given scripture to channel to people, they are entrusted to safeguard the Quran and while they aren't given a scripture as proof of their own authority, the Quran proves their authority. As you can see the "hukim" is governance and judgment, and while they are given a revelation to channel people of that nature, they are entrusted to rule by the Quran and interpret it's implementation.

(4) It can be as other members said better than people of their times, and this would not mean scholars can be on par, because scholars are not chosen before coming to this world and are volatile.  Even Zainab (a) and Abbas (a) they didn't sin ,and were eventually granted protection (Isma), but they gained that in this world. They were not pre-chosen. 

1) Sorry I don't understand this point. I do not disagree that the Prophet is the best of creation. I am talking about the Shia claim the twelve Imams are better than the Prophets.

2) I do not know what verse you are pointing to at first but that is possible linguistically. However, it would require clear evidence.

3) The verse is saying the same people have been given these things together. As for inheritors of the knowledge the Quran talks about this in a different light. Surah Fatir verse 32

ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا ٱلْكِتَـٰبَ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌۭ لِّنَفْسِهِۦ وَمِنْهُم مُّقْتَصِدٌۭ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌۢ بِٱلْخَيْرَٰتِ بِإِذْنِ ٱللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ ٱلْفَضْلُ ٱلْكَبِيرُ ٣٢

Then We caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself [i.e., sins], and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allāh. That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty.

4) Again not taking the apparent meaning with no evidence. That is not allowed. The verse itself doesn't make any exceptions of "people chosen" or "people not chosen" hence why that argument can be made.

[Abu Hadi]

On 9/20/2023 at 9:37 AM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Salam,

A translator putting something in brackets is now evidence? I mean you can see multiple translations that don't have that part. The people who translated it, I assure you don't believe non-Prophets can be better. They probably meant that Prophets are the always the best of their nation? Maybe. Both ways what I said still stands:

"The verses mention several people that have the common factor of Prophethood and says they are better than the worlds. It goes on to say "Those are the ones to whom We gave the Scripture and authority and prophethood." The verse is very relevant. It claims they are better due to Prophethood in comparison  to all of creation."

Musa (عليه السلام) is greater than Khidr according to all sects. Musa is of the Ulu-Azm. What does Khidr have to do with this when many people including Shias claim he was a Prophet. We read in Sahih Al-Bukhari:

 

، يَا مُوسَى إِنِّي عَلَى عِلْمٍ مِنْ عِلْمِ اللَّهِ عَلَّمَنِيهِ لاَ تَعْلَمُهُ أَنْتَ، وَأَنْتَ عَلَى عِلْمٍ عَلَّمَكَهُ لاَ أَعْلَمُهُ‏

 

Al-Khadir replied, "Verily! You will not be able to remain patient with me, O Moses! I have some of the knowledge of Allah which He has taught me and which you do not know, while you have some knowledge which Allah has taught you which I do not know."

 

When you say Musa is 'Greater than' Khidr, greater in what aspect ? 

You use the term 'greater than' as if we are talking about a mathematical equation. 5 > 4. Yes, this is true because numbers have only one aspect, i.e. their numeric value. That's all. Simple. People are not like that and Prophets, Imam, Awliya Allah, Mumineen, Muminaat are not like that. They have many aspects and many dimensions. People exist on many levels simultaneously. We have the different Nafs (Nafs Al Ammara, Nafs Al Muma'ina, etc), we have the Ruh, the Aql, etc. You forgot the verse in the Holy Quran regarding the Ruh (The spirit) 'We have given you knowledge of it, but only a very little'. In other words, the most important aspect of us, the eternal aspect, i.e. the Ruh we basically don't know anything about. So reducing this to a mathematical equation, IMHO is silly and non productive. 

If Nabi Musa((عليه السلام)) was greater than Khidr in EVERY ASPECT, then why did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) make Prophet Musa((عليه السلام)) as a student of Prophet Khidr ? Why did Khidr have knowledge given to him by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that Musa didn't know and didn't even have the ability to understand at the time('...you cannot bear this with patience...') ? You're hadith from Bukhari didn't even answer either of these questions. If you attempt to answer these questions you will then have some knowledge which you didn't have before. 

Edited September 22 by Abu Hadi

[Abu Nur]

Quote

"The verses mention several people that have the common factor of Prophethood and says they are better than the worlds. It goes on to say "Those are the ones to whom We gave the Scripture and authority and prophethood." The verse is very relevant. It claims they are better due to Prophethood in comparison  to all of creation."

No, it is not because of Prophethood, it is because of the Fadl of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This same fadl is given to the Bani Israel:

O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds.

 

[Guest Stranger]

2 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Salam

 

1) Sorry I don't understand this point. I do not disagree that the Prophet is the best of creation. I am talking about the Shia claim the twelve Imams are better than the Prophets.

2) I do not know what verse you are pointing to at first but that is possible linguistically. However, it would require clear evidence.

3) The verse is saying the same people have been given these things together. As for inheritors of the knowledge the Quran talks about this in a different light. Surah Fatir verse 32

ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا ٱلْكِتَـٰبَ ٱلَّذِينَ ٱصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۖ فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌۭ لِّنَفْسِهِۦ وَمِنْهُم مُّقْتَصِدٌۭ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌۢ بِٱلْخَيْرَٰتِ بِإِذْنِ ٱللَّهِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ هُوَ ٱلْفَضْلُ ٱلْكَبِيرُ ٣٢

Then We caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself [i.e., sins], and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allāh. That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty.

4) Again not taking the apparent meaning with no evidence. That is not allowed. The verse itself doesn't make any exceptions of "people chosen" or "people not chosen" hence why that argument can be made.

Salam

(1) I'm saying because the Prophet (s) is the best creation, you can say either sets are best of creation and it would be true, since he belongs to both sets.

(2) We have clear evidence in both Quran and hadiths that Ahlulbayt (a) are chosen above all other chosen.  So the exception in here kicks in.

(3) The preceding verse talks about God aware of his servants, and so this verse "from them" "among them" is referring to servants and not chosen from the servants, but that is a different subject.

(4) The apparent meaning can be either way. While the verse itself does not make the exception of people non-chosen, the Quran has a theme that chosen ones are better than non-chosen.  As people have pointed to you, there are other verses about bani-Israel being preferred over the alimeen yet we believe the ummat of Mohammad (s) is preferred above them. 

[Cool]

1 hour ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

already explained and quoted the part of the Hadith. "Al-Khadir replied, "Verily! You will not be able to remain patient with me, O Moses! I have some of the knowledge of Allah which He has taught me and which you do not know, while you have some knowledge which Allah has taught you which I do not know.""

Well, do you even know what is Quran even says about "Ulul Azm"? 

So Khizr's (عليه السلام) words are preserved in Quran:

كيف تصبر على ما لم تحط به خبرا

So Musa (عليه السلام) was not remain patient. And here is a verse of Quran which mentions this to Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

فَاصْبِرْ كَمَا صَبَرَ أُولُو الْعَزْمِ مِنَ الرُّسُلِ وَلَا تَسْتَعْجِلْ لَهُمْ

46:35

Now I don't want to go off-topic, so I will open a new thread to discuss the term "Ulul Azm" and the story of Musa (عليه السلام) & Khizr (عليه السلام) as mentioned in Chapter 18.

1 hour ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

They can't seem to differentiate between being better in a specific way and being better overall. 

Ohhh, it seems that you knew much about Khizr (عليه السلام). You know every aspect of his life & therefore free to conclude that Musa (عليه السلام) was "overall" greater than Khizr (عليه السلام). 

A "Kaleemullah" never knew how Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is communicating with His Abd!

I will quote ahadith from your books in my new thread. Get yourself prepared! 

And then I will demand from you the نص for declaring Musa (عليه السلام) overall better than Khizr (عليه السلام).

1 hour ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

No contradiction between being introduced as an Abd and being a Prophet. Our Prophet was introduced as an Abd in the first verse of Surah Al-Isra.

What a shame for you! How poor is your understanding!

Show me where is the verse in Quran mentioning the name "Khizr" or mentioning him as Prophet. 

For Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) there are many verses:

و ما محمد الا رسول

محمد رسول الله والذين أمنوا معه

Etc....

1 hour ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Fabricated Hadith that invalidates your point lol. Clearly shows that "min" doesn't have anything to do with being better than the Prophets.

lol, Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is افضل from every Prophet. I thought that is the opinion of Ahlul Sunnah. So Shia view point is that the bearers of the "minniyat" of Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) holds the same status. The one who is nafs e Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is better than rest of the world & why not when he is also introduced in Quran as:

و من عنده علم الكتاب

And for this very reason, Isa (عليه السلام) will offer prayers behind Imam al-Mehdi ajtf. 

 

[Cool]

2 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

If Nabi Musa((عليه السلام)) was greater than Khidr in EVERY ASPECT, then why did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) make Prophet Musa((عليه السلام)) as a student of Prophet Khidr ?

Interestingly what you will find in their books is hadith which mentions this:

"Narrated Ubai bin Ka’b: The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “Once Musa (عليه السلام) stood up and addressed Bani Israel. He was asked: “Who is the most learned man amongst the people?” He said: “I am the most learned.” Allah admonished Musa as he did not attribute absolute knowledge to Him (Allah).”

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:122

If you look at the chapter where this hadith is, you will find the heading:

 

Chapter: When a religious learned man is asked, "Who is the most learned person." it is better for him to attribute or entrust absolute knowledge to Allah 'Azza wa Jall and to say. "Allah is the Most Learned (than anybody else)"

Now have a look what people asked from Musa (عليه السلام):

"Who is the most learned man amongst the people?"

Can anyone reply that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the most learned man amongst people? lol, what a joke!

And you will find in their books, hadith like this:

‘I am the city of knowledge and ‘Ali is it’s gate’

Many of their scholars reject this hadith but some do grade it sahih & hasan. For instance, Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al ‘Asqalani when asked regarding the authenticity of the Hadith, stated that the Hadith is not authentic (sahih) nor is it fabricated (mawdu‘), rather it is sound (hasan).

Hafiz ‘Alaee, ‘Allamah Sakhawi, ‘Allamah Suyuti and Imam Zurqani have also agreed that the Hadith is sound.

(Refer: Al La-Alil Manthurah, Hadith: 113-117, Al Maqasidul Hasanah, Hadith: 189, Mukhtasarul Maqasid, Hadith: 170, Ad Durarul Muntathirah, Hadith: 38, Al La-Alil Masnu’ah, vol. 1 pgs. 302-308, Tanzihush Shari’ah, vol. 1 pg. 377, Al Asrarul Marfu’ah, Hadith: 71, and Kashful Khafa, vol. 1 pg. 184)

So Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) attributed knowledge to himself by saying "I am the city of knowledge" and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) never admonished him. 

[Abu_Bakr_]

Salam,

6 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

When you say Musa is 'Greater than' Khidr, greater in what aspect ? 

You use the term 'greater than' as if we are talking about a mathematical equation. 5 > 4. Yes, this is true because numbers have only one aspect, i.e. their numeric value. That's all. Simple. People are not like that and Prophets, Imam, Awliya Allah, Mumineen, Muminaat are not like that. They have many aspects and many dimensions. People exist on many levels simultaneously. We have the different Nafs (Nafs Al Ammara, Nafs Al Muma'ina, etc), we have the Ruh, the Aql, etc. You forgot the verse in the Holy Quran regarding the Ruh (The spirit) 'We have given you knowledge of it, but only a very little'. In other words, the most important aspect of us, the eternal aspect, i.e. the Ruh we basically don't know anything about. So reducing this to a mathematical equation, IMHO is silly and non productive. 

If Nabi Musa((عليه السلام)) was greater than Khidr in EVERY ASPECT, then why did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) make Prophet Musa((عليه السلام)) as a student of Prophet Khidr ? Why did Khidr have knowledge given to him by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that Musa didn't know and didn't even have the ability to understand at the time('...you cannot bear this with patience...') ? You're hadith from Bukhari didn't even answer either of these questions. If you attempt to answer these questions you will then have some knowledge which you didn't have before. 

Greater meaning they have a greater status with Allah. Nothing to do with every aspect. I clearly quoted a hadith that shows Allah had given them different knowledge. He didn't have patience because he didn't have that specific part of knowledge not because he couldn't "handle it". The whole story contradicts Shia aqeedah maybe why you are finding it hard to understand. Firstly, the part where Musa forgets before he meats Khidr. Then he forgets after he meets Khidr. Also, Khidr has knowledge that he doesn't. This contradicts a Shia belief that you will find a whole chapter for in Usool Al-Kafi titled along the lines of "A hujjah of Allah has knowledge of the past, present and future"

If you are still struggling to understand what "Greater" means ask yourselves what it means when you claim Imams are greater then Prophets.

 

3 hours ago, Guest Stranger said:

Salam

(1) I'm saying because the Prophet (s) is the best creation, you can say either sets are best of creation and it would be true, since he belongs to both sets.

(2) We have clear evidence in both Quran and hadiths that Ahlulbayt (a) are chosen above all other chosen.  So the exception in here kicks in.

(3) The preceding verse talks about God aware of his servants, and so this verse "from them" "among them" is referring to servants and not chosen from the servants, but that is a different subject.

(4) The apparent meaning can be either way. While the verse itself does not make the exception of people non-chosen, the Quran has a theme that chosen ones are better than non-chosen.  As people have pointed to you, there are other verses about bani-Israel being preferred over the alimeen yet we believe the ummat of Mohammad (s) is preferred above them. 

1) Doesn't prove Imams are better than Prophets or relate to the verse. I may have misunderstood your point and I won't claim I really understand what you are saying here??

2) Bring the CLEAR evidence from the Quran and I will be the first Shia.

3) Different subject it is?

4) That is because we see a clear verse to show that. Surah Al-'Imran verse 110

كُنتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ تَأْمُرُونَ بِٱلْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ ٱلْمُنكَرِ وَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِٱللَّهِ ۗ وَلَوْ ءَامَنَ أَهْلُ ٱلْكِتَـٰبِ لَكَانَ خَيْرًۭا لَّهُم ۚ مِّنْهُمُ ٱلْمُؤْمِنُونَ وَأَكْثَرُهُمُ ٱلْفَـٰسِقُونَ ١١٠

You are the best nation produced [as an example] for mankind. You enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and believe in Allāh. If only the People of the Scripture had believed, it would have been better for them. Among them are believers, but most of them are defiantly disobedient.

5 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

No, it is not because of Prophethood, it is because of the Fadl of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). This same fadl is given to the Bani Israel:

O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds.

 

Prophethood is a form of fadl? I feel you either don't read Quran or don't understand Arabic. Surah An-Nisa verse 54

أَمْ يَحْسُدُونَ ٱلنَّاسَ عَلَىٰ مَآ ءَاتَىٰهُمُ ٱللَّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِۦ ۖ فَقَدْ ءَاتَيْنَآ ءَالَ إِبْرَٰهِيمَ ٱلْكِتَـٰبَ وَٱلْحِكْمَةَ وَءَاتَيْنَـٰهُم مُّلْكًا عَظِيمًۭا ٥٤

Or do they envy people for what Allāh has given them of His bounty? But We had already given the family of Abraham the Scripture and wisdom1 and conferred upon them a great kingdom.

The person in this verse is the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). Bounty in this verse is Prophethood. Also see number (4) above.

3 hours ago, Cool said:

Well, do you even know what is Quran even says about "Ulul Azm"? 

So Khizr's (عليه السلام) words are preserved in Quran:

كيف تصبر على ما لم تحط به خبرا

So Musa (عليه السلام) was not remain patient. And here is a verse of Quran which mentions this to Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

فَاصْبِرْ كَمَا صَبَرَ أُولُو الْعَزْمِ مِنَ الرُّسُلِ وَلَا تَسْتَعْجِلْ لَهُمْ

46:35

Now I don't want to go off-topic, so I will open a new thread to discuss the term "Ulul Azm" and the story of Musa (عليه السلام) & Khizr (عليه السلام) as mentioned in Chapter 18.

 

You are implying Musa isn't part of Ulul Azm? See you in that thread Inshallah.

3 hours ago, Cool said:

 

Ohhh, it seems that you knew much about Khizr (عليه السلام). You know every aspect of his life & therefore free to conclude that Musa (عليه السلام) was "overall" greater than Khizr (عليه السلام). 

A "Kaleemullah" never knew how Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is communicating with His Abd!

I will quote ahadith from your books in my new thread. Get yourself prepared! 

And then I will demand from you the نص for declaring Musa (عليه السلام) overall better than Khizr (عليه السلام).

 

 

This is a big problem with debating Shias. Shiasim is very different to every Shia. That is why I am always eager to quote shia scholars. This is not just in terms of Aqeedah. It's like the shias that deny the laws of ridda and think shiasim is a liberal sect etc. You have to debate people that almost believe in a new madhab. Then these same shias will say "look at sunnis praying different". 

 

The evidence is that the Ulul Azm are better than the non Ulul Azm. Furthermore, as I said they are both Prophets it doesn't really directly relate to this topic. I will Inshallah look at the new topic.

 

3 hours ago, Cool said:

 

What a shame for you! How poor is your understanding!

Show me where is the verse in Quran mentioning the name "Khizr" or mentioning him as Prophet. 

For Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) there are many verses:

و ما محمد الا رسول

محمد رسول الله والذين أمنوا معه

Etc....

 

 

A shia demanding names be mentioned in the Quran?

Again it goes back to my previous point. Classical Sunnis and Shias agree that person is Khidr. Although they may have disagreed on him being a Prophet even Sunnis. Yet you are suggesting otherwise. Ofcourse I will leave the details for another thread. The evidence of him being a Prophet are statements he said in Surah Al-Kahf.

3 hours ago, Cool said:

 

lol, Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is افضل from every Prophet. I thought that is the opinion of Ahlul Sunnah. So Shia view point is that the bearers of the "minniyat" of Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) holds the same status. The one who is nafs e Rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is better than rest of the world & why not when he is also introduced in Quran as:

 

 

I know the Prophet is the best of All of creation. I am using this point against you. You seem to claim being "of me", even though I have clearly proved otherwise, makes you of the same status. In addition to the lack of Arabic knowledge it shows it also contradicts Aqeedah for both Shias and Sunnis. As for Mubahala I have already answered. 

3 hours ago, Cool said:

 

و من عنده علم الكتاب

And for this very reason, Isa (عليه السلام) will offer prayers behind Imam al-Mehdi ajtf. 

 

As for this quote it shows a real lack of contemplation of the verse. The verse says:

وَيَقُولُ ٱلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا۟ لَسْتَ مُرْسَلًۭا ۚ قُلْ كَفَىٰ بِٱللَّهِ شَهِيدًۢا بَيْنِى وَبَيْنَكُمْ وَمَنْ عِندَهُۥ عِلْمُ ٱلْكِتَـٰبِ ٤٣

The disbelievers say, “You ˹Muḥammad˺ are no messenger.” Say, ˹O Prophet,˺ “Allah is sufficient as a Witness between me and you, as is whoever has knowledge of the Scripture.”

 

The verse has nothing to do with Ali. It is pointing to the fact that the people who have knowledge of Scripture (Jews and Christians) know he is a Prophet as their book told of his coming. To assume it is talking about Ali destroys the meaning. It means that when the Kuffar said "you aren't a Prophet" in Makkah he told them "proof of my Prophethood is my 13 year old cousin who believed in me"? To praise Ali you have destroyed the meaning of the verse.

4 hours ago, Cool said:

 

And for this very reason, Isa (عليه السلام) will offer prayers behind Imam al-Mehdi ajtf. 

 

The shias claim Aqeedah needs Mutawatir Hadith but the Hadith you quote is only Ahad. Furthermore, it doesn't prove your point. Praying behind someone you are greater than is valid. Secondly, it will only be done ONCE to honour this Ummah as stated in the very hadith.

3 hours ago, Cool said:

Interestingly what you will find in their books is hadith which mentions this:

"Narrated Ubai bin Ka’b: The Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said: “Once Musa (عليه السلام) stood up and addressed Bani Israel. He was asked: “Who is the most learned man amongst the people?” He said: “I am the most learned.” Allah admonished Musa as he did not attribute absolute knowledge to Him (Allah).”

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:122

If you look at the chapter where this hadith is, you will find the heading:

 

Chapter: When a religious learned man is asked, "Who is the most learned person." it is better for him to attribute or entrust absolute knowledge to Allah 'Azza wa Jall and to say. "Allah is the Most Learned (than anybody else)"

Now have a look what people asked from Musa (عليه السلام):

"Who is the most learned man amongst the people?"

Can anyone reply that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the most learned man amongst people? lol, what a joke!

 

I mean if you understand Arabic you wouldn't have made yourself look bad by typing this. The chapter title says:

باب مَا يُسْتَحَبُّ لِلْعَالِمِ إِذَا سُئِلَ أَىُّ النَّاسِ أَعْلَمُ فَيَكِلُ الْعِلْمَ إِلَى اللَّهِ

Meaning you either say Allah is most knowledgeable (about who is the smartest).  

Or it can say Allah is the most knowledgeable (meaning all knowledge comes from him).

"Joke" is you pretending to know Arabic.

3 hours ago, Cool said:

 

And you will find in their books, hadith like this:

‘I am the city of knowledge and ‘Ali is it’s gate’

Many of their scholars reject this hadith but some do grade it sahih & hasan. For instance, Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al ‘Asqalani when asked regarding the authenticity of the Hadith, stated that the Hadith is not authentic (sahih) nor is it fabricated (mawdu‘), rather it is sound (hasan).

Hafiz ‘Alaee, ‘Allamah Sakhawi, ‘Allamah Suyuti and Imam Zurqani have also agreed that the Hadith is sound.

(Refer: Al La-Alil Manthurah, Hadith: 113-117, Al Maqasidul Hasanah, Hadith: 189, Mukhtasarul Maqasid, Hadith: 170, Ad Durarul Muntathirah, Hadith: 38, Al La-Alil Masnu’ah, vol. 1 pgs. 302-308, Tanzihush Shari’ah, vol. 1 pg. 377, Al Asrarul Marfu’ah, Hadith: 71, and Kashful Khafa, vol. 1 pg. 184)

So Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) attributed knowledge to himself by saying "I am the city of knowledge" and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) never admonished him. 

A fabricated hadith according to Ibn Al-Jawzi and weak according to others. It is easy to claim it's sound or authentic by quoting LATER scholars who are known to be more lenient in grading Hadith. I ask you a question if a shia scholar, Al-Majlisi, claims the Hadiths of Tahreef are Muttawatir yet we find Shias rejecting them. Why the double standard when Sunnis use evidence to aid the view of their classical scholars like Al-Daraqutni and Yahya Ibn Maeen that a hadith is weak/fabricated.

You are quoting references that go AGAINST you. You quoted Asrarul Marfu’ah, a book that complies only FABRICATED hadith. Copy and past shows lack of sincerity.

Furthermore, shias claim Aqeedah needs Mutawatir Hadith but the Hadith you quote is only (a weak at best) Ahad hadith.

[Ibn Tayyar]

10 hours ago, Abu_Bakr_ said:

I have already stated the Shia evidence is weak and explained how. It isn't allowed to not take the apparent meaning with no evidence, let alone the clear cut meaning.

I find it strange that you how claim this is a weak Shi'i tafsir, when this tafsir has been mentioned in Sunni tafsir books.

For example, in Tafsir Al-Baghawi:

وهدينا كذلك إسماعيل واليسع ويونس ولوطا، وكل هؤلاء الرسل فضَّلناهم على أهل زمانهم.

It is your interpretation that has led you to believe this is the "clear cut" meaning, not that it is. If it was as clear cut as you claim, the mufasireen of your madhab wouldn't come to different conclusions in their tafasīr.

[Abu_Bakr_]

3 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

I find it strange that you how claim this is a weak Shi'i tafsir, when this tafsir has been mentioned in Sunni tafsir books.

For example, in Tafsir Al-Baghawi:

وهدينا كذلك إسماعيل واليسع ويونس ولوطا، وكل هؤلاء الرسل فضَّلناهم على أهل زمانهم.

It is your interpretation that has led you to believe this is the "clear cut" meaning, not that it is. If it was as clear cut as you claim, the mufasireen of your madhab wouldn't come to different conclusions in their tafasīr.

These are two different statements.

 

One is pointing to Prophets not mentioned as possibly being better than those mentioned. For example, our Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). That is what is meant by best of their time.

 

The other statement about non-Prophets being better than Prophets. What shias here are claiming. The shia view is still weak as the evidence put foward to make this exception to the verse isn't strong. See the original post. Although the comments have mostly ignored what I said about the Ibrahim "Imam" verse.

 

[Cool]

18 hours ago, Cool said:

 

حدثنا الفضل بن دكين عن الوليد بن جميع عن أبي الطفيل قال: كان بين حذيفة وبين رجل منهم من أهل العقبة بعض ما يكون بين الناس، فقال: أنشدك بالله، كم كان أصحاب العقبة؟ فقال القوم: فأخبره فقد سألك، فقال أبو موسى الأشعري: قد كنا نخبر أنهم أربعة عشر، فقال حذيفة، وإن كنت فيهم فقد كانوا خمسة عشر، أشهد بالله أن اثني عشر منهم حزب الله ورسوله في الحياة الدنيا ويوم يقوم الاشهاد، وعذر ثلاثة، قالوا: ما سمعنا منادي رسول الله (ص) ولا علمنا ما يريد القوم.

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1911_المصنف-ابن-أبي-شيبة-الكوفي-ج-٨/الصفحة_588#:~:text=(4) حدثنا الفضل بن دكين,بالله، كم كان أصحاب العقبة؟

This is from ibn Abi Shaybah. Now lets see the same hadith from masnad:

كان بين حذيفة وبين رجل من أهل العقبة ما يكون بين الناس فقال: أنشدك الله كم كان أصحاب العقبة؟ فقال له القوم: أخبره إذ سألك ، قال: إن كنا نخبر أنهم أربعة عشر . وقال أبو نعيم فقال الرجل كنا نخبر أنهم أربعة عشر قال: فإن كنت منهم وقال أبونعيم فيهم ، فقد كان القوم خمسة عشر . وأشهد بالله أن اثني عشر منهم حرب لله ولرسوله (ص) في الحياة الدنيا ويوم يقوم الأشهاد

صحيح مسلم 4 / 2144 ح 11, و مسند أحمد:5/390

 

I would also like to add another hadith from Tarikh e Damishq about the same Abu Musa:

عن أبي يحيى حكيم قال: كنت جالساً مع عمّار، فجاء أبو موسى، فقال: مالي ولك! قال: ألست أخاك؟
قال: ما أدري، إلاّ أنّي سمعت رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وسلّم يلعنك ليلة الجمل.
قال: إنّه قد استغفر لي.
قال عمّار: قد شهدت اللّعن ولم أشهد الإستغفار

تاريخ مدينة دمشق - ابن عساكر - ج ٣٢ - الصفحة ٩٣

Note: ليلة الجمل means ليلة العقبة

It is of no surprise that these brothers of Ahlul Sunnah try to protect the munafiqeen. Abu Musa al-Ash'ari is a very small character, they are bent on defending greatest munafiqeen of all i.e., Muawiyah (L). 

From these characters, we go back in history & see who appointed these munafiqeen as governors during their caliphates! Who accommodated these munafiqeen in their governments! And  picture becomes clear to us. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 9/20/2023 at 5:07 PM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Easy to accuse people of being "Wahabi" with no evidence. Shias really don't know much about Sunni circles if you think only Salafis have a theological problem with Shias.

Salam , lol , i have just explained dirty tactic of Wahabists & Nasibis which they have considered any narration in favor of Amir al Mumunin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) from any source whether from authentic Sunni or Shia sources as weak & unauthentic  but on the other hand they have promoted  any fabrication & forging  from his enemies  in hope of finding  any fault  in Amir al Mumunin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) through fabrication & forging .

On 9/20/2023 at 5:07 PM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

You seem to love mentioning weak Hadiths. A lot that have nothing to do with this topic. It is easy to throw 5-10 hadiths at some one and waste their time explaining how this one is weak and this one had nothing to do with the topic. Easy to copy and paste from this website with no real effort and not understanding anything:
https://motaghin.com/ar_Articlepage_2955.aspx?gid=31
For example, you have used sources that Sunnis don't rely upon at all. Like Al-Khawarizmi. Also you have added a part of a narration in "Yanabii Al-Mawadah" (another book sunnis don't rely on) to Musnad Ahmad. It's shows a lack of sincerity. 

On 9/20/2023 at 5:07 PM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

I'll save you time. Hadith of the Prophet and Ali from one Nur is not authentic. I haven't even seen a reliable source for it yet, let alone an authentic isnad. Shias claim that Aqeedah has to be built upon Mutawatir Hadith but you are building upon fabrications and weak hadith.

 

Analysis of Hadith-e-Nur – Introduction – Part 1

 we will discuss this tradition in a series of articles and throw light on the following aspects of this tradition:

1. Hadith-e-Nur: An Introduction
2. Chain of Narrators
a. The Sahaabah i.e. companions who narrated the tradition
b. The Taabe’een i.e. second generation companions (who did not see the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) who have narrated the tradition
c. The Huffaaz i.e. memorizers of the Quran who narrated the tradition
3. Tawaatur of Hadith-e-Nur
4. Reliability of narrators of Hadis-e-Nur according to Ahle Tasannun
5. Answers to objections of the skeptics
6. Other merits of Aal-e-Muhammad ((عليه السلام))

Hadith-e-Nur – An Introduction

Hadith-e-Nur has been extensively narrated by the scholars of both the sects. We present hereunder its common variants, with a common message underpinning all of them.

Quote

The Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a) said:

I and Ali b. Abi Talib both were a light (Nur) in the presence of Allah fourteen thousand years before the creation of Adam. When Allah created Adam, he deposited this light in Adam’s loins. We remained together as one light until we were separated in Abdul Muttalib’s loin. Thereafter, I was endowed with Prophethood and Ali with Caliphate.

Among others, the following Sunni scholars have documented Hadis-e-Nur:

• Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal in his Musnad
• Mir Sayyed Ali Hamdani in Mawaddah al-Qurbah
• Ibn Maghaazili Shaafe’i in his Manaaqib
• Muhammad b. Talhah Shaafe’i in Mataalib al-So’l fi Manaaqib-e-Aal-e-Rasool
• Ibrahim b. Muhammad Hamweeni Shaafe’ei in Faraaid al-Simtain fi Fazaail al-Murtuza wa al-Batool wa al-Sibtain
• Khaarazmi in his al-Manaaqib
• Abd al-Hameed Ibn Abil Hadeed in Sharh-o-Nahj al-Balaaghah
• Haafiz Sulaimaan Qundoozi in Yanabee al-Mawaddah

The aforementioned as also several other Sunni scholars are unanimous about the authenticity of this tradition, which we will discuss in a separate article.

From the above tradition, we understand among other points that Ameerul Momeneen’s ((عليه السلام)) light is from the light of the Noble Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) and in matters of guidance and leadership, he ((عليه السلام).) shares the same status as that of the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) except that he is the Imam and Caliph, and not a Prophet, which is also the case with the Imams in his progeny. Just like the position and stature of the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) cannot be denied and denying it would amount to apostasy, skepticism about the position of Ameerul Momineen ((عليه السلام).) as the Imam and Caliph of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) is apostasy.

Also this tradition redeems all the ancestors of Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a.) and Ameerul Momineen ((عليه السلام).) of apostasy and hypocrisy. This includes the oft-targeted personalities like Hazrat Abu Talib ((عليه السلام).), Hazrat Abdullah ((عليه السلام).), Hazrat Aminah (s.a.) who are incessantly and unfairly accused of disbelief while the Tradition of Light proclaims them as the perfect believers untainted even by the shadow of apostasy.

https://www.seratonline.com/22355/analysis-of-the-tradition-of-light-hadis-e-nur-part-1/

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 9/20/2023 at 5:07 PM, Abu_Bakr_ said:

Shias really don't know much about Sunni circles if you think only Salafis have a theological problem with Shias.

Salam all of us are aware of theological problems of Sunni circles with Shias although some of fair circles don't deny authenticity of narrations about superiority & authority of infallible Imams specially Amir al Mumunin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) from authentic Sunni resources but on the other they try to justify obeying three caliphs so then cursed ummayyads & Abbasids through obeying Salaf & their forefather in similar fashion of following of forefathers by opponents of any prophet which in addition Wahabis & Salafis & nasibis have tried to insult Shias & call any authentic narration or rational & logical matter from them about superiority  & authority of infallible Imams equal to myths of the ancients. 

they do not believe in it, and the precedent of the ancients has already passed. (13)

https://tanzil.net/#15:13

But the elite of the faithless from among his people said, ‘This is just a human being like you, who seeks to dominate you. Had Allah wished, He would have sent down angels. We never heard of such a thing among our forefathers. (24) 

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/23:24

There are some of them who [Edited Out] up their ears at you, but We have cast veils on their hearts lest they should understand it, and a deafness into their ears; and though they should see every sign, they will not believe in it. When they come to you, to dispute with you, the faithless say, ‘These are nothing but myths of the ancients.’ (25)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/6:25