Segregated vs. Mixed Education

[Diaz]

Salam everyone, I hope you are all fine. I would like to know what do you guys prefer and why? I will tell my reasons once I get more information.

[notme]

In an ideal world, gender segregated education is probably superior, but it is essential that care is taken to ensure that boys and girls all have full access to all of their educational requirements.  I would go so far as to propose that boys and girls should be educated by the same teachers in the same classrooms, perhaps on alternating schedules. (For example, perhaps girls have language and social science classes one day, and math and pure science the other, and the boys have the reverse. Does that make sense? For elective classes, coeducation is fine. )

But it shouldn't be forced on anyone.  This is a choice that should be made by students and parents.  

[PureExistence1]

Salaam, 

Well, my reasons are kind of goofy reasons. Aside from the islamic reasoning for segregation of youth, especially of certain ages is concerned, I think it's important for females to be around females so their minds develop female mindsets and the same for males.

There are always outliers to every situation, but I know for me, I have always been a tomboy so I was always drawn to hanging out with guys and doing guy things when I was a kid, and if it wasn't for islam, I would still be doing that, but instead I don't really have any female friends and I'm just by myself which is totally fine with me..I love landscaping, working on cars and doing work on the farm whereas most females don't enjoy those things. But I seem to think that if I'd have been around more girls when I was younger, maybe I would have turned out differently? Not that I really have a problem with how I turned out, but the way I am can be problematic In some cultures and for some people. Like I was once told a long time ago that I would never get married because no muslim man would marry someone like me because I was such a tomboy. Well, that turned out to be false, lol.. But whatever..maybe I'm just the outlier and even if I HAD been around only females from a very young age, it wouldn't have nade a difference. Who knows. Like i said, goofy reasons.

The other thing that is much less personal, is that it is I think pretty important for girls to learn early on not to be too comfortable with guys because that can Cascade very quickly and lines can become blurred and end up with females that have no haya or boundaries with males is a risk.

Not sure if any of this is helpful.

 

[Diaz]

1 hour ago, PureExistence1 said:

Salaam, 

Well, my reasons are kind of goofy reasons. Aside from the islamic reasoning for segregation of youth, especially of certain ages is concerned, I think it's important for females to be around females so their minds develop female mindsets and the same for males.

There are always outliers to every situation, but I know for me, I have always been a tomboy so I was always drawn to hanging out with guys and doing guy things when I was a kid, and if it wasn't for islam, I would still be doing that, but instead I don't really have any female friends and I'm just by myself which is totally fine with me..I love landscaping, working on cars and doing work on the farm whereas most females don't enjoy those things. But I seem to think that if I'd have been around more girls when I was younger, maybe I would have turned out differently? Not that I really have a problem with how I turned out, but the way I am can be problematic In some cultures and for some people. Like I was once told a long time ago that I would never get married because no muslim man would marry someone like me because I was such a tomboy. Well, that turned out to be false, lol.. But whatever..maybe I'm just the outlier and even if I HAD been around only females from a very young age, it wouldn't have nade a difference. Who knows. Like i said, goofy reasons.

The other thing that is much less personal, is that it is I think pretty important for girls to learn early on not to be too comfortable with guys because that can Cascade very quickly and lines can become blurred and end up with females that have no haya or boundaries with males is a risk.

Not sure if any of this is helpful.

 

I understand what you are trying to say sister, but don’t you think it’s compulsory for both men and women to know how to clean, cook, plant, fix their tyres etc? Here in Middle East school for arab segregated school, they teach girls how to cook, clean, tailor clothes etc while men they teach them how to play sport only. Since we live in new generation, I believe both men and women should learn many things instead of waiting the opposite gender to do it. 

[PureExistence1]

29 minutes ago, Diaz said:

I understand what you are trying to say sister, but don’t you think it’s compulsory for both men and women to know how to clean, cook, plant, fix their tyres etc? Here in Middle East school for arab segregated school, they teach girls how to cook, clean, tailor clothes etc while men they teach them how to play sport only. Since we live in new generation, I believe both men and women should learn many things instead of waiting the opposite gender to do it. 

Yes i agree with you as far as daily life things are concerned. In my opinion, I think if a woman is going to drive a car, she darn well better know how to change the oil, fix a flat tire on the side of the road and other basic maintenance that the vehicle requires-its part of being a responsible car owner and driver..plus it saves a lot of money! And just like you said, both men and women eat, so both of them should know how to handle themselves in a kitchen and cook. It's not relegated to one or the other. But yeah, as far as what they're being taught in school, I think they both should be taught the same things for the most part was very little different as far as life skills are concerned. I mean, even here in the states, they used to have classes where they taught kids how to run a household, mostly girls took those classes but it wasn't only for girls. Boys could take them too. 

I think the most important take away from my post is the fact that if we have girls and boys around each other right from the beginning and all the way through high school with no boundaries, then boys and girls are going to be overly comfortable being around each other and "over sharing" with each other.

Even in islam, we have very particular ways siblings should be managed in a household. It's actually highly preferred that women change the diapers of a female baby, and that males change the diaper of a male baby. Also, at a certain age boys and girls are not allowed to share bedrooms together for obvious reasons. There are many other details about this division of the two genders as regards siblings in islam, so if we have this division even between siblings and within the family, how much greater of a responsibility is it to have that same division with non-mahram, even in childhood?

Edited September 11, 2023 by PureExistence1

[PureExistence1]

And I need to correct my first response by not putting all the responsibility on the girls, boys need to learn to have haya around girls also. I'm not sure why I posted something so "off" :/

[notme]

4 hours ago, Diaz said:

Here in Middle East school for arab segregated school, they teach girls how to cook, clean, tailor clothes etc while men they teach them how to play sport only.

Cooking, cleaning, and repairing clothing are life skills, not girls skills.  Sports are fine, but far less important.

[PureExistence1]

4 hours ago, notme said:

Cooking, cleaning, and repairing clothing are life skills, not girls skills.  Sports are fine, but far less important.

True, there are many narrations/accounts of the Prophet(SAWS) and the imams(عليه السلام) cooking cleaning and mending shoes and clothes.

[ali_fatheroforphans]

I have done my schooling both in Pakistan and Australia. It was strictly segregated in Pakistan, but we did have female teachers. In Australia, the school I went to there was no segregation. 

I preferred the segregated setting, easier to focus on studies and just have general peace of mind. I enjoyed my time more in my schooling in Pakistan. 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by ali_fatheroforphans

[3wliya_maryam]

I don't know why, but I'm kind of in the middle between segregation and mixed, I believe both should be practiced. I went to a private islamic school and the classes were mixed but at the same time both guys and girls were separated in the classrooms. The only times they allowed us to interact with the opposite gender were in group projects or during assistance, in fact they encouraged it sometimes so that we could improve our communication and interpersonal skills with both genders.

It made more sense once I graduated and entered university why it seemed to be the case, along with finding a job.

However, given the fact that we're living in scary times and this lgbtqz+ whatever nonsense has been spreading, parents are now fearful for putting their children in public schools where they are mixed. 

[notme]

1 hour ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

However, given the fact that we're living in scary times and this lgbtqz+ whatever nonsense has been spreading, parents are now fearful for putting their children in public schools where they are mixed. 

I suspect if you look at statistics, you'll find more homosexual activities and tendencies in segregated environments than in mixed, but the research still says that with all else equal, boys perform better in all boy classes and girls perform better in all girl classes.  

[Ahmad8888]

Segregated, I would go as far as to even suggest male teachers for boys and female teachers for girls, this way they will perform very good in school. There is unfortunately way more female teachers and this in turn hinders the development of boys, especially when the female teacher deems the boys behaviour "problematic", this ends up killing his ambitions and messing up his development in the long run.

 

Back in the day you used to have male coaches, teachers training the boys.

Edited September 12, 2023 by HusseinAbbas

[notme]

3 hours ago, HusseinAbbas said:

There is unfortunately way more female teachers

If a society wants men to teach, they have to pay teachers better and treat teachers better.  

Women will endure a lot more misery out of love for the work than men will. 

[AbdusSibtayn]

Salam, 

I'd prefer a segregated atmosphere, not just because it will cut down a lot on the associated nonsense and distraction, but also because we need male teachers to handle boys, especially adolescent ones. They generally have a more 'rebellious' behavior and a rougher transition to adulthood, a situation which requires firm handling. 

[Ahmad8888]

4 hours ago, notme said:

If a society wants men to teach, they have to pay teachers better and treat teachers better.  

Women will endure a lot more misery out of love for the work than men will. 

Eh it depends, if it's jobs like teaching, nursing, then I agree with you, women generally love these professions more than men and put up with a lot of garbage, but in other professions like engineering, construction work, etc... this isn't necessarily the case. I have seen it first hand when i worked in warehouses, restaurants, technician jobs, and especially engineering, so it really depends, men are willing to slave away at these kind of jobs more than women and put in more hours. If we encourage teaching as a profession for men as it used to be a thing in older societies, we would not need to pay more. Although paying more and treating teachers better is much needed.

Edit: by the way if you're going to bring up unpaid internship, trust me I have gone through it when I did my technician internship, it sucks and it needs to change for nursing too.

Edit again: I had to change my comment as I misread your entire second sentence.

Edited September 13, 2023 by HusseinAbbas

[notme]

13 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

we need male teachers to handle boys, especially adolescent ones.

Boys and young men do need more and better male role models, especially the ones whose fathers and grandfathers are not very active in their lives. 

I do disagree with the necessity of all male teachers for boys and all female teachers for girls, but I'd like to see more men in the teaching profession, especially at the middle levels when kids are starting to become adults.  

[Ibn Tayyar]

From a halal and haram point of view, which should be the first way to look at things if you are a Muslim, a segregated classroom and school will always be purer for the heart and soul.

At the very least, ikhtilaat (mixed gender settings) is makruh, and can easily lead to haram. Some jurists may rule it haram altogether in school settings.

I also agree with the other brothers who mentioned that a male student learning from a male teacher is better for his development, and a female student learning from a female teacher is better for her development.

Schools are usually segregated in certain Middle Eastern countries, and so you might see more of a balance in the gender ratio when it comes to pursuing teaching as a  profession, as opposed to the West where there is much more females in teaching than males.

Edited September 13, 2023 by Ibn Tayyar

[notme]

48 minutes ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

At the very least, ikhtilaat (mixed gender settings) is makruh, and can easily lead to haram. Some jurists may rule it haram altogether in school settings.

Be careful about presenting rulings which you are not qualified to declare without supporting evidence.  

[Ibn Tayyar]

34 minutes ago, notme said:

Be careful about presenting rulings which you are not qualified to declare without supporting evidence.  

Sayyed Al-Sistani:

: هل يجوز لي الدراسة في الجامعات المختلطة بين الجنسين؟ وهل يجوز العمل في مكان مختلط؟

الجواب: لا يجوز إذا كان الاختلاط يؤدّي إلى الإخلال بشيءٍ ممّا هو وظيفة المرأة تجاه الرجل الأجنبي أو العكس سواء من جهة رعاية التستّر و العفاف أو غير ذلك، و لا بأس مع الأمن من ذلك على كراهة

https://www.sistani.org/arabic/qa/0295/

Sayyed Al-Khoei:

السؤال : هل يجوز للمرأة أن تعمل كطبيبة أو ممرضة ، مع استلزام ذلك للاختلاط بالرجال في أيام الدراسة أو العمل بعد ذلك ؟

الجواب : لا يجوز ، إلا مع الضرورة المبيحة للمحرمات

https://www.al-khoei.us/fatawa1/?id=2306

سؤال 1243: ما رأيكم في جواز تعلم المرأة في الكليات أو الجامعات مع العلم بوجود الاختلاط؟

الخوئي: التعلم فيها لا بأس به، ولكن الاختلاط غير جائز، والله العالم

https://www.al-khoei.us/books/?id=8384

Edited September 13, 2023 by Ibn Tayyar

[Ahmad8888]

1 hour ago, notme said:

Boys and young men do need more and better male role models, especially the ones whose fathers and grandfathers are not very active in their lives. 

I do disagree with the necessity of all male teachers for boys and all female teachers for girls, but I'd like to see more men in the teaching profession, especially at the middle levels when kids are starting to become adults.  

To add to this fathers who work jobs that don't allow them to see their sons much need to make the most out of every interaction they have with their sons and they need to instill their morals and values especially the islamic one, so that the son does not end up confused when he is growing. I have seen this happen a lot with fatherless sons, they are lost, have no courage and have been bullied beyond belief for being a weird guy which in turn gives them the zero self confidence, it's unfortunate. 

Edited September 13, 2023 by HusseinAbbas

[notme]

@Ibn Tayyar thank you.  Can you translate? 

[Ibn Tayyar]

10 hours ago, notme said:

@Ibn Tayyar thank you.  Can you translate? 

I will translate Sayyed Al-Sistani's fatwa.

Question: Is it permissible for me to study in mixed universities? And is it permissible to work in a mixed environment?

Answer: It is not permissible if the mixing leads to an infringement of a woman's duty with regards to a non-mahram man, or the opposite [gender], whether it be with respect to veiling, modesty or otherwise, and there is no objection if there is protection from that, and [it is] disliked.

Personally I have seen this question repeated multiple times on the Sayyed's website, but this is the only time I have seen the "dislike" addition, and it is only available on the Arabic section as far as I know.

Also what he meant by "if there is protection from that" is that if a person can maintain their Islamic duty, then it wouldn't be haram to free-mix in that particular environment, which is studying.

The Sayyed has other rulings on his website with respect to gyms, swimming pools, and the like.

Sayyed Al-Khoei is a bit more strict on the issue of school segregation, but I'm not sure anyone follows him here anyway so I won't translate unless requested by another brother or sister.

Hope this helps. Salam

[notme]

@Ibn Tayyar thank you.  I had never seen this before.  I am not a fluent reader of Arabic.  I hope your translation is useful to others as well.  

[AbdusSibtayn]

14 hours ago, notme said:

especially at the middle levels when kids are starting to become adults. 

This is what I was specifically talking about. 

Personally there are a lot of female teachers I have benefitted from more than my male teachers, including a couple university professors and the Sheikha who taught me Qur'an recitation. But things are different when there are hormonal, rebellious teenagers in the equation. Firmer handling is required here, the kind for which male teachers will be needed. 

In dog language (this analogy is especially for folks with a rural/farm background like myself), the difference between raising teenage girls and boys is pretty much akin to training a companion retriever-type puppy vs training a mastiff/bullie- type puppy. The former can be done by a novice owner. The latter requires an expert handler with a firm hand. I am not talking about exceptions. This is the general trend. 

Edited September 14, 2023 by AbdusSibtayn

[Diaz]

On 9/12/2023 at 5:15 AM, notme said:

Cooking, cleaning, and repairing clothing are life skills, not girls skills.  Sports are fine, but far less important.

Alhamdulillah I know how to cook and clean, my room is always cleaner more than my sister's xD even my aunts compliments my cleaning skills.

 

On 9/12/2023 at 2:00 PM, ali_fatheroforphans said:

I preferred the segregated setting, easier to focus on studies and just have general peace of mind. I enjoyed my time more in my schooling in Pakistan. 

Salam brother, was it difficult to focus on school because of female students? If I'm not wrong, currently you are living in australia so that means you have female co-workers am I right? 

 

On 9/12/2023 at 6:10 PM, notme said:

I suspect if you look at statistics, you'll find more homosexual activities and tendencies in segregated environments than in mixed, but the research still says that with all else equal, boys perform better in all boy classes and girls perform better in all girl classes.  

I agree with this completely, here in arab countries like saudi arabia, uae, kuwait etc, there are a lot of homosexual activities that has been reported in segregated school or at least in the place where I live. 

 

On 9/12/2023 at 11:45 PM, AbdusSibtayn said:

Salam, 

I'd prefer a segregated atmosphere, not just because it will cut down a lot on the associated nonsense and distraction, but also because we need male teachers to handle boys, especially adolescent ones. They generally have a more 'rebellious' behavior and a rougher transition to adulthood, a situation which requires firm handling. 

 

Wa alaikum al salam brother, I agree regarding male behaviours, I studies in mixed school and my female teachers where more strict than male, they had the power to control us.

[Diaz]

Salam everyone, the reason why I asked this question is because I studies in mixed school and currently studying in university that allows the student to choose either mixed classes or segregated. Since the first time I joined, I chose to study only in segregated classes because I was not comfortable around female students, I'm not sure why tho, either because majority of them are tough or they just don't have a good moral. Ofc not all of them but you can say we always end up with a female karen in our class. Plus each time a new semester start, we get a new students. All of my professors (male or female) prefer male student more than female. 

I prefer segregated educated while my sisters specially my eldest sister prefer mixed because during work time we must engage with our co workers whether we like it or no, we all know during work gender are mostly mixed depend on the field you work. When I use to work as a telesales, my co-workers were mostly men but my team leader was female. 

I personally never has issues talking with female, like when I want to know something or when they talk with me to know or ask for help, I can do that but I noticed some people especially men who never talked with non mahram women, can't even function when a female talk with them.

[AbdusSibtayn]

58 minutes ago, Diaz said:

Wa alaikum al salam brother, I agree regarding male behaviours, I studies in mixed school and my female teachers where more strict than male, they had the power to control us.

Then your class must have been a well- behaved one. 

It's also about instinctively knowing what the boys are up to, or going to do. Here also male teachers have an upper hand for boys. 

[Diaz]

3 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Then your class must have been a well- behaved one. 

It's also about instinctively knowing what the boys are up to, or going to do.

I did behave well to all the teachers but no my classmates did not behave well at all, some of them got suspended on their last year of highschool which was issued by our class teacher who was a female.

 

Quote

Here also male teachers have an upper hand for boys. 

What do you mean by this? 

[notme]

16 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

It's also about instinctively knowing what the boys are up to, or going to do. Here also male teachers have an upper hand for boys. 

I think knowing what mischief is up comes with experience. It isn't innate for men or for women.  

[AbdusSibtayn]

7 hours ago, Diaz said:

I did behave well to all the teachers but no my classmates did not behave well at all, some of them got suspended on their last year of highschool which was issued by our class teacher who was a female.

 

What do you mean by this? 

 

7 hours ago, notme said:

I think knowing what mischief is up comes with experience. It isn't innate for men or for women.  

Not just mischief. Some patterns of thought and behaviour , and problems that adolescent boys typically go through. It is expected that male teachers will have personal familiarity with these and be able to attend to these problems better.

[ali_fatheroforphans]

14 hours ago, Diaz said:

Salam brother, was it difficult to focus on school because of female students? If I'm not wrong, currently you are living in australia so that means you have female co-workers am I right? 

Wasalam, I did pretty alright at school alhumdulillah regardless and it also depends on us at the end of the day. Even in segregated environments, those who tend to get distracted will get distracted in many other ways. But generally speaking, yes a segregated environment proved to be better. 

I don't have many female coworkers cos I work in a male dominated industry.  

 

[Haji 2003]

On 9/13/2023 at 2:10 PM, notme said:

@Ibn Tayyar thank you.  Can you translate? 

On a Mac, at least, you select any text then press the ctrl key then click the mouse and translation is one of the options that's available. Very useful when text in a foreign language needs moderator approval before being visible to everyone else.

[notme]

47 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

On a Mac, at least, you select any text then press the ctrl key then click the mouse and translation is one of the options that's available. Very useful when text in a foreign language needs moderator approval before being visible to everyone else.

Thanks.  I could just put it into Google Translate, but I wanted it to benefit others, not just me, plus, in my experience, human translations are better.  

[3wliya_maryam]

On 9/13/2023 at 6:51 PM, Ibn Tayyar said:

From a halal and haram point of view, which should be the first way to look at things if you are a Muslim, a segregated classroom and school will always be purer for the heart and soul.

At the very least, ikhtilaat (mixed gender settings) is makruh, and can easily lead to haram. Some jurists may rule it haram altogether in school settings.

I also agree with the other brothers who mentioned that a male student learning from a male teacher is better for his development, and a female student learning from a female teacher is better for her development.

Schools are usually segregated in certain Middle Eastern countries, and so you might see more of a balance in the gender ratio when it comes to pursuing teaching as a  profession, as opposed to the West where there is much more females in teaching than males.

Didn't Saffiya the daughter of Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) become a lecturer in Egypt, teaching male scholars?

It was said that Sayyeda Fatima al Zahra (عليه السلام) was also a teacher and she taught Jabir ibn Abdillah al Ansari who narrated Hadith al Kisa, otherwise how else would he have narrated it.

I heard this in one of the videos from Sayed Jawad al Qazwini, I'll see if i can find it when i have the time.

At the end of the day, it does depend on the setting and the environment. I do agree that male students do need more male teachers who are good so that they have a role model they can look up to.

 

[notme]

9 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Some patterns of thought and behaviour , and problems that adolescent boys typically go through. It is expected that male teachers will have personal familiarity with these and be able to attend to these problems better.

I can't comment on older teens, who are still developmentally children but Islamically adult, but in my experience, up to the middle school level, boy and girl children have greater individual differences than gendered differences.