New fatwa from Sayyed Al-Sistani concerning the ghulat

[Ibn Tayyar]

Al-Salamu Alaykum

Recently, a popular YouTube/TV cleric made a claim that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is the creator of the universe, among other deviant and kufri claims.

This caused an uproar, and many scholars of sound belief responded to him and to other Ghulati claims, with a notable amount of lectures during the Month of Muharram being dedicated to the issue of ghulu, aswell as the ghulu that is sometimes repeated in poems and latmiyaat, which the marja'iyya had previously warned about.

Finally, a question was sent to Sayyed Al-Sistani regarding the claim of that cleric, and he responded in turn with a written response.

https://www.non14.net/public/159649

Perhaps the brothers who are well-versed in translating can translate this for the brothers/sisters who can't read in Arabic. 

[Hameedeh]

On 9/5/2023 at 3:22 AM, Ibn Tayyar said:

Perhaps the brothers who are well-versed in translating can translate this for the brothers/sisters who can't read in Arabic. 

Salam. Doesn't the link that you posted above offer the English translation? 

On 9/5/2023 at 3:22 AM, Ibn Tayyar said:

https://www.non14.net/public/159649

[Abu Hadi]

A basis translation is that Sayyid Sistani says that to say that Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) or Imam Hussein((عليه السلام)) or any of the Imams created or made the universe or gave life to creation or causes them to die is an exaggeration (ghulaw) which is haram (forbidden). 

Edited September 9 by Abu Hadi

[Ibn Tayyar]

12 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

Salam. Doesn't the link that you posted above offer the English translation? 

It offers a Google translation, which aren't really accurate.

[Ibn Tayyar]

The following is my translation, any brothers or sisters who wish to comment feel free.

Question: Is the saying that Imam Ali (عليه السلام), or Imam Al-Husayn (عليه السلام), is the creator of the Universe(s), or the maker of the Heavens, or that he revives the creation and causes their death from the ghulu which is condemned in the confirmed [and] honourable narrations?

Answer: Yes, it is from the ghulu which the Imams from Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) have disaccociated from, and it is not from it [ghulu] ascribing creation or reviving [the dead] in certain specific circumstances with Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) permission, in accordance to what has been mentioned in the Holy Qur'an in relation to certain Prophets - upon our Prophet and his Family and them salam.

Edited September 9 by Ibn Tayyar

[Abu Nur]

21 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

The following is my translation, any brothers or sisters who wish to comment feel free.

Question: Is the saying that Imam Ali (عليه السلام), or Imam Al-Husayn (عليه السلام), is the creator of the Universe(s), or the maker of the Heavens, or that he revives the creation and causes their death from the ghulu which is condemned in the confirmed [and] honourable narrations?

Answer: Yes, it is from the ghulu which the Imams from Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) have disaccociated from, and it is not from it [ghulu] ascribing creation or reviving [the dead] in certain specific circumstances with Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) permission, in accordance to what has been mentioned in the Holy Qur'an in relation to certain Prophets - upon our Prophet and his Family and them salam.

This is important. There is very big difference between creating or reviving for certain specific circumstance than generally applying the creation of universe or reviving of the creation to Imams (عليه السلام). It can easily to see that Qur'an give examples of Prophets (عليه السلام) performing these as exactly as for specific circumstance. 

[In Gods Name]

On 9/10/2023 at 11:02 PM, Abu Nur said:

This is important. There is very big difference between creating or reviving for certain specific circumstance than generally applying the creation of universe or reviving of the creation to Imams (عليه السلام). It can easily to see that Qur'an give examples of Prophets (عليه السلام) performing these as exactly as for specific circumstance. 

But are there not people who believe the Almighty created us all and by his permission gave ahlulbayt power to control all the atoms of the universe? Wilayat takwiniyah 

I agree this is shirk. It reminds me of how the Christians here in Africa do this to Mary and Jesus. 

[Abu Nur]

27 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

But are there not people who believe the Almighty created us all and by his permission gave ahlulbayt power to control all the atoms of the universe? Wilayat takwiniyah 

I agree this is shirk. It reminds me of how the Christians here in Africa do this to Mary and Jesus. 

Wilayah Takwiniyyah: that is creational authority like direct intervention and control over things and affairs in the creation. The human power to walk, to climb, to carry heavy loads, etc. are all examples of this authority...
Miracles are instances of wilayah takwiniyyah that Allah bestowed upon His prophets; it is however a divine act beyond ordinary human faculties.

Source.

Does not prophet in Qur'an have this kind of authority by permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

[In Gods Name]

11 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Wilayah Takwiniyyah: that is creational authority like direct intervention and control over things and affairs in the creation. The human power to walk, to climb, to carry heavy loads, etc. are all examples of this authority...
Miracles are instances of wilayah takwiniyyah that Allah bestowed upon His prophets; it is however a divine act beyond ordinary human faculties.

Source.

Does not prophet in Qur'an have this kind of authority by permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

I think this topic is vast and everyone has a different view on it. A common view i see is that God made the ahlulbayt and then then delegated all affairs including creating to them. So this goes beyond a miracle, it applies to all of creation. It is still they argue with the permission of God.  Nobody would say a miracle is shirk. But there are people who take isolated miracles and then say God has given authority over the whole universes affairs to the ahlulbayt. So they run everything with his permission.

[Abu Nur]

18 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

A common view i see is that God made the ahlulbayt and then then delegated all affairs including creating to them.

This is mostly a Ghulat belief. I really don't think it is that common.

Edited September 15 by Abu Nur

[In Gods Name]

1 hour ago, Abu Nur said:

This is mostly a Ghulat belief. I really don't think it is that common.

I don't want to post the Wahhabi video because they spread this in Africa and it even causes violence. But there was this Shaykh , i do not know if he was a shirazi. Here are screengrabs.

 

'

[Abu Nur]

On 9/15/2023 at 8:01 PM, In Gods Name said:

I don't want to post the Wahhabi video because they spread this in Africa and it even causes violence. But there was this Shaykh , i do not know if he was a shirazi. Here are screengrabs.

I agree that there are scholars who believe in this, but I don't go that far to claim it is a common thing among Shias.

[Cool]

On 9/15/2023 at 10:20 AM, In Gods Name said:

A common view i see is that God made the ahlulbayt and then then delegated all affairs including creating to them

Although it seems like retiring Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). But my question is that can someone become needless, at any point of time,  of the "Necessary Existence" i.e., Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

Lets assume for a while, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has delegated the affairs of to someone, does that someone becomes needless of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) after this authorization or delegation of affairs? 

A Quranic example is that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is "يُدَبِّرُ الأَمْرَ", Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is indeed the one who regulates & manages the affairs:

قُلْ مَن يَرْزُقُكُم مِّنَ السَّمَاء وَالأَرْضِ أَمَّن يَمْلِكُ السَّمْعَ والأَبْصَارَ وَمَن يُخْرِجُ الْحَيَّ مِنَ الْمَيِّتِ وَيُخْرِجُ الْمَيَّتَ مِنَ الْحَيِّ وَمَن يُدَبِّرُ الأَمْرَ فَسَيَقُولُونَ اللّهُ فَقُلْ أَفَلاَ تَتَّقُونَ

{10:31} Say: Who gives you sustenance from the heaven and the earth? Or Who controls the hearing and the sight? And Who brings forth the living from the dead, and brings forth the dead from the living? And Who regulates the affairs? Then they will say: Allah. Say then: Will you not then guard (against evil)?

Then we have the following verse as well:

فَالْمُدَبِّرَاتِ أَمْرًا {5}

[Shakir 79:5] Then those who regulate the affair.

So people have no issue when delegation of affairs comes to angels. They have problem when the same delegation comes to His chosen human beings. 

The clear example is the example of Christians who tried to make Jesus (عليه السلام) needless by coining the term "trinity". 

In our madhab, there is no concept of needlessness in the creation. Creation is always needy so as long as creation is viewed as needy, is there any problem? 

[Abu Nur]

2 hours ago, Cool said:

So people have no issue when delegation of affairs comes to angels. They have problem when the same delegation comes to His chosen human beings. 

Salaam Aleikum,

What is concern for some Shias is that "all" affairs are delegated to Imams (عليه السلام). It is not a problem if they were delegated with some affairs, as for Angels they all have some partial delegation too.

[In Gods Name]

2 hours ago, Cool said:

Although it seems like retiring Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). But my question is that can someone become needless, at any point of time,  of the "Necessary Existence" i.e., Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)?

Lets assume for a while, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has delegated the affairs of to someone, does that someone becomes needless of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) after this authorization or delegation of affairs? 

A Quranic example is that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is "يُدَبِّرُ الأَمْرَ", Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is indeed the one who regulates & manages the affairs:

قُلْ مَن يَرْزُقُكُم مِّنَ السَّمَاء وَالأَرْضِ أَمَّن يَمْلِكُ السَّمْعَ والأَبْصَارَ وَمَن يُخْرِجُ الْحَيَّ مِنَ الْمَيِّتِ وَيُخْرِجُ الْمَيَّتَ مِنَ الْحَيِّ وَمَن يُدَبِّرُ الأَمْرَ فَسَيَقُولُونَ اللّهُ فَقُلْ أَفَلاَ تَتَّقُونَ

{10:31} Say: Who gives you sustenance from the heaven and the earth? Or Who controls the hearing and the sight? And Who brings forth the living from the dead, and brings forth the dead from the living? And Who regulates the affairs? Then they will say: Allah. Say then: Will you not then guard (against evil)?

Then we have the following verse as well:

فَالْمُدَبِّرَاتِ أَمْرًا {5}

[Shakir 79:5] Then those who regulate the affair.

So people have no issue when delegation of affairs comes to angels. They have problem when the same delegation comes to His chosen human beings. 

The clear example is the example of Christians who tried to make Jesus (عليه السلام) needless by coining the term "trinity". 

In our madhab, there is no concept of needlessness in the creation. Creation is always needy so as long as creation is viewed as needy, is there any problem? 

 

To get this understood,

Allah created the imams and prophet

He gave them by his permission authority to create everything else

He gave them by his permission authority to govern the universe 

Is this your belief? 

[Cool]

On 9/19/2023 at 9:32 AM, Abu Nur said:

What is concern for some Shias is that "all" affairs are delegated to Imams (عليه السلام).

Alaikas-Salam Brother!

It is the limitation of creation. They, being limited & finite, cannot get which is unlimited or infinite. For instance, the divine knowledge and the power cannot be borne by limited beings, therefore it must be a natural outcome that delegation of affairs must have some limits.

[Cool]

7 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

To get this understood,

Allah created the imams and prophet

He gave them by his permission authority to create everything else

He gave them by his permission authority to govern the universe 

Is this your belief? 

As long as you have the aqli & naqli evidences to support the term "by His permission" (باذن الله), there is no problem in this belief. 

[In Gods Name]

8 minutes ago, Cool said:

As long as you have the aqli & naqli evidences to support the term "by His permission" (باذن الله), there is no problem in this belief. 

If someone believes, that Allah by his permission, created the prophet and almuhammed. And they by his permission made all of creation. By his permission, govern and rule all of creation.

This will be acceptable to you because Allah has allowed it by his permission?

[Cool]

12 minutes ago, In Gods Name said:

This will be acceptable to you because Allah has allowed it by his permission?

I don't have any evidence with me for such a divine command.

However, I cannot rule out the possibility because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the only needless being, everything else will remain needy even after delegation of any sort of authority and that authority itself would be limited & finite as creation, by nature, is limited & finite. So we have evidences with us in Quran where His chosen servants exercised that limited authority, infact they created things by His permission and much more. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

14 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

If someone believes, that Allah by his permission, created the prophet and almuhammed. And they by his permission made all of creation. By his permission, govern and rule all of creation.

This will be acceptable to you because Allah has allowed it by his permission?

Salam in many narrations "the prophet and almuhammed" have refuted creation of universe by them but on the other hand they have been chosen by Allah for governing  universe as caliph of Allah which they could do some miracles  ( mu'jizah )  by permission of Allah .which for example they could rise dead in similar fashion of prophet Isa (عليه السلام) by permission of Allah which for prophets it's miracle  ( mu'jizah ) r& for infallible Imams it's Karamah. 

 

Karamah is doing an extraordinary thing by a person who does not claim to be a prophet. One of the characteristics of virtues is that they cannot be taught and learned and are not influenced by a stronger force. The principle of the occurrence of the Karmah of saints of Allah is accepted by Shia, Ash'arite and Wahhabism; However, Mu'tazila and other groups denied it. Those in favor have cited Quranic verses such as the summoning of Bilqis(queen of sheba) throne by Asif bin Barkhia and narrative and rational evidences, while the opponents have presented reasons such as not distinguishing a prophet from a non-prophet and invalidating the evidence of miracles over prophethood. Karamah, unlike a miracle, does not come with the claim of prophecy and challenge. Also, unlike other extraordinary works such as magic and the works of monks, it is not limited and cannot be taught or learned.

The Karamah of the saints

Quote

Some of the famous Karamahs are: honest dreams (dreams that come true), mastery of minds and souls (reading thoughts and understanding the inside of people), walking on water, walking in fire and not burning, Tay la ard ( "traversing the earth without moving") .[20]

 

The emergence of extraordinary works such as miracles and Karamah are considered to be the works and signs of the Wilayah Takvini.[21]

Quote

 

An example of the Karamahs of Imams ((عليه السلام).): It was narrated from Abu Basir: "I went to Imam Baqir ((عليه السلام).) and asked... can you revive the dead?" Treat the congenitally blind and the patient with leprosy? In response, he said: Yes, by Allah's permission, then he touched my face and eyes (he was blind) and I saw the sun, the sky, the earth, the house and everything in it..."[22]

opinions

Quote

Shia, [23] Ash'are [24] and Wahhabism [25] have accepted the occurrence and recognition of the Karamah of divine saints; But most of the Mu'tazilites, [26] Kharijites and some Ash'arites have denied the legitimacy of Karamah.[27]

Fakhr Razi, a theologian of the Ash'ari religion, while claiming the consensus of the Ash'ari religion about the permissibility of Karamah, presented Quranic, narrative and intellectual reasons to prove its permissibility and also mentioned examples of the occurrence of the Karamah.[28]

Those in favor cite the verses of the Qur'an to prove the legitimacy of the Karamah. [29] Verses in which The Karamah and vices are attributed to other than prophets, such as the summoning of the throne of Bilqis by Asif bin Barkhia [30] the descent of heavenly food and sustenance for the lady Mary. 31] and the story of the Companions of the Cave [32]. Opponents have also presented reasons for not allowing Karamah from non-prophets, such as not distinguishing a prophet from a non-prophet and invalidating the evidence of miracles over prophethood.[33]

Muslim philosophers also accept the issuance of dignity from the divine saints, explain the occurrence of miracles and Karamah and in general extraordinary works based on the perfection of the powers of the human soul (perfection of intellectual power, perfection of imagination and perfection of sensory power).[34]

The Miracles {Karamah} of the Saints of God {Awliya’ Allah}

Quote

The Miracles {Karamah} of the Saints of God {Awliya’ Allah}

Another point upon which the Wahhabis differ with the Sunnis and the Shi`ah is the issue of miracles {karamat}. All Muslim sects regard the prophets ('a) as people who performed miracles {karamat} and wondrous feats {mu'jizah} because the Qur'an bears witness to the authenticity of this point. Concerning the infallible Imams ('a), however, the only group that does not recognize them to have performed miracles and treat them as equal to others in the possession or otherwise of this merit is the Wahhabis. The Shi`ah characterize the infallible Imams ('a) with having miraculous and marvelous powers, substantiating this fact with religious traditions and historical accounts.

Now, if anyone believes that there is a difference between a mu'jizah and a karamah, emphasizing that mu'jizah refers to that which is performed by the prophets as narrated in the Qur'an while karamah refers to that which is performed by the infallible Imams ('a) as narrated in the traditions, it must be said that in any case, the pure Imams ('a) possess powers and forces which the common people undoubtedly do not possess, and it makes no difference whether you call it as mu'jizah or karamah. It is said that some of the real Gnostics and mystics {'urafa'} possess this power and to a lower degree. It is thus stated in the book, Fath al-Majid:

 

Quote

The miracles {karamah} of the saints of God {awliya' Allah} are the products of divine attraction and grace, and this affair does not depend upon the person or his knowledge and intention—like the karamah of 'Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) .

 

Quote

on numerous occasions and the karamah of 'Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) when he came to Iran and talked to Prophet Daniel in the town of Shush. Similarly, at the time when Medina was afflicted with famine, 'Umar participated in the prayer for rain and it came.

It must not remain unstated that we do not have reliable historical evidence concerning 'Umar's coming to Iran and the town of Shush in particular. It was rather 'Ali ibn Abi Talib ('a) who had come to Shush and talked with Prophet Daniel ('a)

 

 

Quote

With regard to the famine, it must also be said that what has been recorded in reliable sources is that at the request of 'Umar, 'Abbas the uncle of the Prophet (s) performed this prayer.

 

Quote

Then, the said author adds that these miracles have no benefit and if there were any benefit, it only pertains to that time. In short, after the death of those possessing karamah, those miracles have no value and one should not expect them.1

Therefore, the Wahhabis believe in a sort of karamah for the Imams ('a), the Companions and leading figures of the religion, but they consider these miracles valuable only at the time when those possessing them are alive because once a person departs from this world, the mark of his existence, like that of other living creatures and even the non-living ones, ceases to exist. They substantiate this statement of theirs with the verse,

﴿إِنَّكَ مَيِّتٌ وَإِنَّهُمْ مَيِّتُونَ.﴾

You will indeed die, and they {too} will die indeed,2

in which the death of the Prophet (s) has been treated equal with that of the awliya'. They have also inferred from this verse that seeking help from the souls of the prophets ('a) and the awliya' is a futile and vain practice, and that ziyarat al-qubur {prayer recited on visiting a grave} must be shunned. Of course, the prohibition of ziyarah for women is even more emphasized and the philosophy behind it is clear.

 

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/کرامت

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/طی_الارض

https://id.wikishia.net/view/Wilayah_Takwini

http://askislam.ir/en/wilayah-al-takwini-according-to-shia/

https://www.al-islam.org/new-analysis-wahhabi-doctrines-muhammad-husayn-ibrahimi/miracles-karamah-saints-god-awliya-allah

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 9/15/2023 at 8:31 PM, In Gods Name said:

i do not know if he was a shirazi. 

Salam he is late Sayed Muhmmad Reza Shirazi which there is many controversial things about him .

On 9/15/2023 at 8:31 PM, In Gods Name said:

the Wahhabi video because they spread this in Africa and it even causes violence

A sane person doesn't rely on biased mistranslation & misinterpretation of a radical Wahhabi video . 

 

 Thanks from @kamyar

Quote

his is not something new. It has become a habit for these individuals whose three characteristics are taqwa-less-ness, basirah-less-ness and logic-less-ness to spread rumors without being able to back them up.

Here is the summary of the main point of this thread:

Someone creates a topic about funeral of a person and later two persons claim that he was martyred. People ask them "how did he get martyred" and they claim that "Iran killed him". Naturally people ask them that "what are your proofs" and they provide the following points as proofs:

1.  Shirazi family is not in line with Iranian government.

2.  Welayate Faqih has no place in Shia Islam and our scholars are against it (beside the fact that it's a false statement and all the Shia scholars, and if we consider some others as scholar, almost all the Shia scholars are in favor of Welayate Faqih, obviously it has nothing to do with the first accusation)

3. The person has written 1400 books.

4. Plus a video of his funeral called documentary, which is everything but a documentary claiming his body was stolen that even if it is true it doesn’t prove anything.

"This is not tashayoe, this is clear aberrance"

Also, read the article below to see how our enemies have put their hope in these people:

  Quote

The followers of Imam Shirazi have already demonstrated an ability to utilize the internet and new media to disseminate the teachings of their revered teacher. These voices could be amplified and situated in the narrative context of Karbala through new media. This may maximize its use as a counter-narrative against the regime and its claims to represent the Twelver Shi'ite Muslims of the world, including populations in Lebanon, Iraq, and Pakistan, among others. The use of online video to depict Shirazi and Khamenei in these archetypal roles is one method of doing so.

The United States would also do well to cultivate relationships with the Shiraziyyin at home and abroad, and encourage improved freedoms for their communities in eastern Saudi Arabia by using its influence with the Saudi monarchy. The United States needs allies in the Muslim world who believe in coexistence and democracy. The Shiraziyyin appear to be a natural fit. However, the significance of the group must not be overstated on a global scale, because they are a minority of Shi'ites, who are themselves a minority in the Muslim world, vastly outnumbered by the Sunni branch of Islam and its various subsets.

http://csc.asu.edu/2010/10/07/a-counter-narrative-for-iranian-tyranny-2/

Expand  

 

  On 12/1/2016 at 11:47 PM, Lover of Ahlulbait (ams) said:

Correct. Edited my post. However I'm very much interested to know about the whereabouts of Ayatullah Wahid Khorasani. May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protect all our ulama from shar of zalimeen. 

What are they saying about Ayatullah Wahid that makes you worried about his situation?

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

addendum

 

[AbdusSibtayn]

Two more noteworthy things-

1. I don't recall any verse or tradition where angels are described as creating things ex-nihilo. The verses that refer to their delegated duties, refer to them running the cosmic phenomenon by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 's command- rains, capturing souls at death etc. Running a machine =\= making it. 

2. The 'delegation' here is different from what is conventionally understood, in that a. Allah still has complete control over their selves b. He is the source of their ability c. They are under His constant supervision. It is not that the duty has been entrusted to the angels and the rest is up to them. When we delegate some duty to someone, we cannot exercise complete control over them. We cannot take away their ability to perform the duty whenever we please. We cannot supervise them every split second. In short, they are not in our complete control. But this is not the case with Allah and His angels. 

Ref: Tawhid af'ali. 

[Cool]

2 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Allah still has complete control over their selves b. He is the source of their ability c. They are under His constant supervision.

Salam Brother!!

This are valid points. I remember the verse of chapter al-Aala where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentioned this (a) control:

سَنُقْرِئُكَ فَلَا تَنْسَىٰ {6}

[Shakir 87:6] We will make you recite so you shall not forget,

Here forgetfulness has been negated but in the very next verse:

إِلَّا مَا شَاءَ اللَّهُ ۚ إِنَّهُ يَعْلَمُ الْجَهْرَ وَمَا يَخْفَىٰ {7}

[Shakir 87:7] Except what Allah pleases, surely He knows the manifest, and what is hidden.

And the verse of al-Nahl mentions that (b) He is the source of their ability:

وَاصْبِرْ وَمَا صَبْرُكَ إِلَّا بِاللَّهِ ۚ وَلَا تَحْزَنْ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا تَكُ فِي ضَيْقٍ مِمَّا يَمْكُرُونَ {127}

[Shakir 16:127] And be patient and your patience is not but by (the assistance of) Allah, and grieve not for them, and do not distress yourself at what they plan.

And then the verse of al-Tur mentions that (c) they are under His constant supervision:

وَاصْبِرْ لِحُكْمِ رَبِّكَ فَإِنَّكَ بِأَعْيُنِنَا ۖ وَسَبِّحْ بِحَمْدِ رَبِّكَ حِينَ تَقُومُ {48}

[Shakir 52:48] And wait patiently for the judgment of your Lord, for surely you are before Our eyes, and sing the praise of your Lord when you rise;

Another interesting aspect is that the angels do not disobey the divine command. It is for the chosen servants of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that He mentioned for them that they do not will except that which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will:

وَمَا تَشَاءُونَ إِلَّا أَنْ يَشَاءَ اللَّهُ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا حَكِيمًا {30}

[Shakir 76:30] And you do not please except that Allah please, surely Allah is Knowing, Wise;

So we have evidence in Quran that one of His chosen servant (i.e., Khizr (عليه السلام)) was deputed on batin. He made the hole in a boat, killed a boy, repaired a wall. All what he did were in accordance with the divine will. What is more interesting in that story is that the pronouns used:

فَأَرَدْتُ (I willed), فَأَرَدْنَا (we willed), فَأَرَادَ رَبُّكَ (Your Lord willed)

More interesting are the following words of Khizr (عليه السلام):

وَمَا فَعَلْتُهُ عَنْ أَمْرِي (and I did not do it of my own accord.)

These quranic stories are like قول الثابت for believers as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has said:

يُثَبِّتُ اللّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ بِالْقَوْلِ الثَّابِتِ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَفِي الآخِرَةِ

 

Edited September 20 by Cool

[Ibn Tayyar]

On 9/20/2023 at 1:17 AM, Cool said:

I don't have any evidence with me for such a divine command.

However, I cannot rule out the possibility because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the only needless being, everything else will remain needy even after delegation of any sort of authority and that authority itself would be limited & finite as creation, by nature, is limited & finite. So we have evidences with us in Quran where His chosen servants exercised that limited authority, infact they created things by His permission and much more. 

The phrase "by His permission" is commonly used as a get out of jail free card.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only gives permission to that which aligns with his mashi'ah (will), and there are things which He has given Himself exclusive authority upon. 

For example, the Knowledge of the Time (Qiyamah) is something not even the Prophet (saww) knows, as clear from the Holy Qur'an. 

But why is it exclusive to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only? Why didn't He reveal this knowledge to His Prophet? We don't know, and we don't need to ponder. He claimed exclusive knowledge over it, and therefore we cannot attribute it to any of his creation.

The Imams (عليه السلام) themselves have rejected the belief that they were delegated with the creation of the Universe, aswell as it contradicting many of the Verses of the Holy Qur'an, and so we leave it at that, without pondering whether it is a technical possibility or not.

[Cool]

4 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only gives permission to that which aligns with his mashi'ah (will), and there are things which He has given Himself exclusive authority upon. 

In principle, I don't disagree with you. As I have already explained the limited-ness & finiteness of creation vs unlimited-ness & infiniteness of knowledge & power of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

What I cannot deny are the following words & likes of them present in our multiple hadith corpus:

نحن إذا شئنا شاء اللّه و إذا كرهنا كره اللّه

What I cannot deny are the meanings which pops out from the divine words:

وَ ما رَمَيْتَ إِذْ رَمَيْتَ وَ لكِنَّ اللَّهَ رَمى‌

And likes of these verses are also present. 

Wassalam! 

[In Gods Name]

5 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

The phrase "by His permission" is commonly used as a get out of jail free card.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only gives permission to that which aligns with his mashi'ah (will), and there are things which He has given Himself exclusive authority upon. 

For example, the Knowledge of the Time (Qiyamah) is something not even the Prophet (saww) knows, as clear from the Holy Qur'an. 

But why is it exclusive to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only? Why didn't He reveal this knowledge to His Prophet? We don't know, and we don't need to ponder. He claimed exclusive knowledge over it, and therefore we cannot attribute it to any of his creation.

The Imams (عليه السلام) themselves have rejected the belief that they were delegated with the creation of the Universe, aswell as it contradicting many of the Verses of the Holy Qur'an, and so we leave it at that, without pondering whether it is a technical possibility or not.

But what about the people who say Allah made the Prophet and Imams and then these made all of creation and now control every atom in the universe. By permission of Allah they say when an Imam wishes for something he says Be  and it is by Gods permission. This is why when people go to the zareehs and tombs, they ask the ones who they say created all things for all their wishes.

[In Gods Name]

On 9/19/2023 at 4:32 PM, Abu Nur said:

Salaam Aleikum,

What is concern for some Shias is that "all" affairs are delegated to Imams (عليه السلام). It is not a problem if they were delegated with some affairs, as for Angels they all have some partial delegation too.

Maybe i am wrong. But some of the arab and persian scholars say the Imams are not human but only look like us. They came from divine holy essence and are fourteen lights. God the father then delegated to his fourteen divine lights creation of the universe. They then by his permission govern all of creation. A bit like Jesus he had a human form and divine form. 

[Abu Nur]

5 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Maybe i am wrong. But some of the arab and persian scholars say the Imams are not human but only look like us. They came from divine holy essence and are fourteen lights. God the father then delegated to his fourteen divine lights creation of the universe. They then by his permission govern all of creation. A bit like Jesus he had a human form and divine form. 

I don't believe in such a thing because every scholar have read and understood the following verse:

"Say:- I am but a human being like you. It has been revealed to me that your God is only One God-" (18:110).

[Cool]

8 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

They came from divine holy essence and are fourteen lights. God the father then delegated to his fourteen divine lights creation of the universe.

The material and the spiritual/meta-physical aspects are real. Imagine what were you on the day when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) asked "Am I not your Lord?" (الست بربكم)

It is fact that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has created the Light of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) first. Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was a Prophet prior to the creation of Adam (عليه السلام). No Shia can ever deny the noorani aspect of the Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام. 

I remember a hadith:

كنز جامع الفوائد وتأويل الآيات الظاهرة: محمد بن العباس عن عبد العزيز بن يحيى عن أحمد بن محمد بن عمر (3) ابن يونس الحنفي اليمامي عن داود بن سليمان المروزي عن الربيع بن عبد الله الهاشمي عن أشياخ من آل محمد عن علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام قالوا (4): قال علي عليه السلام في بعض خطبه: إنا آل محمد كنا أنوارا حول العرش، فأمرنا الله بالتسبيح فسبحنا فسبحت الملائكة بتسبيحنا، ثم أهبطنا إلى الأرض فأمرنا الله بالتسبيح فسبحنا فسبحت أهل الأرض بتسبيحنا، فإنا لنحن الصافون وإنا لنحن المسبحون

If you closely look at the creation, you will find two systems working:

a) System of Qadr where things evolve under the divine guidance. Example, God created heavens & earth in 6 days/periods

b) System of Amr where things happen within the blink of an eye. There are many examples of this system as well and that even includes the miracles performed by Jesus (عليه السلام)

[Ashvazdanghe]

23 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

But what about the people who say Allah made the Prophet and Imams and then these made all of creation and now control every atom in the universe. By permission of Allah they say when an Imam wishes for something he says Be  and it is by Gods permission. This is why when people go to the zareehs and tombs, they ask the ones who they say created all things for all their wishes.

Salam this is totally wrong speculation which clearly people maybe ask for solving their problems likewise having a child or solving a complicated dilemma which has not been solved through all of  common ways but the other hand they don't think that the Prophet and Imams can create a child for them from nowhere or completely erases their dilemma which they ask Allah due to position of the Prophet and Imams in presence of Allah so then they will have a special permission for having a child or find a new way for solving their dilemma  also controlling every atom by the Prophet and Imams by permission of Allah means which they have dominance on every creature for doing good likewise it has been narrated in both of Sunni & Shia sources that pebbles have exalted Allah in hand of  prophet Muhmmad (pbu) and movement of a tree toward prophet by his command or heavy rainfall after praying of prophet Muhammad (pbu) which in similar fashion heavy rainfall after praye of Imam Reza(عليه السلام) has been recorded which similar Karamas to Mujizas (miracles) of prophet Muhammad (pbu) by infallible Immas (عليه السلام) have been recorded in authentic sunni or Shia sources .

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Other Miracles

• The flow of water from the middle of the Prophet's (s) fingers: al-Bukhari quoted Anas b. Malik as saying that one day at the time of the afternoon prayer, the Sahaba intended to say prayers with the Prophet (s), but they could not find water to perform wudu. At this time, the Prophet (s) put his hand in a container. Water flew from his fingers, and everyone performed wudu from that water.^[9]

^{[9] Bukhārī, ‘’Ṣaḥīḥ al-bukhārī’’, vol. 3, p. 310.}

• The movement of a tree towards the Prophet (s): Imam 'Ali (a) quoted in his al-Khutba al-Qasi'a that one day some prominent figures of the Quraysh went to the Prophet (s) and asked him to tell the tree to come to them in order to prove his prophethood. The Prophet (s) told the tree to go to them at the permission of God. Suddenly, the tree's roots came out of the ground and it moved towards the Prophet (s). Despite this obvious miracle, they did not believe in the Prophet (s), calling him a magician.^[10]

^{[10] ‘’Nahj al-balāgha’’, Sermon 192.}

• Heavy rainfall after the pray of the Prophet (s): according to a hadith from Imam al-Sadiq (a), in the wake of a severe drought in Medina, people asked the Prophet (s) to pray for a rainfall. The Prophet (s) prayed and just before the end of his pray, clouds covered the sky of Medina and it rained so heavily that there was nearly a flood there.^[11]

^{[11] Kulaynī, ‘’al-Kāfī’’, vol. 2, p. 274.}

• Pebbles in the hands of the Prophet (s) exalting God: Abu Dhar quoted 'Uthman b. 'Affan as saying that he, Abu Bakr, and 'Umar were at the presence of the Prophet (s). He picked a number of pebbles from the ground and put them on his palms. At this time, the pebbles began to exalt God.^[12]

[12] Ibn Kathīr, ‘’Muʿjizāt al-nabīyy’’, p. 133.

Other miracles have also been attributed to the Prophet (s), including: him talking to wild animals and birds, disclosing things that people had hidden in their houses, and so on.^[13]

[13] Masʿūdī, ‘’Ithbāt al-waṣīyya’’, p. 214.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Miracles_of_the_Prophet_(s)

 

23 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Maybe i am wrong. But some of the arab and persian scholars say the Imams are not human but only look like us. They came from divine holy essence and are fourteen lights. God the father then delegated to his fourteen divine lights creation of the universe. They then by his permission govern all of creation. A bit like Jesus he had a human form and divine form. 

This is only has been said by few Ghulat which being Arab and Persian doesn't mean that they have true understanding or they are free from errors which in some narrations about creating humans it has been mentioned that normal people are mix of both of good & bad soil (essence) which in judgment day they will be totally from good essence or bad essence based on their deeds but on the other hand due to infallibility so then infallible have been made from just good soil (essence) although they can chose to do bad or good deeds in similar fashion of other humans also they have not seen themselves immune from wrath of Allah if they have been disobeying him which it's a famous hadith taht all of them are same unite light which means they follow path of Allah based on longtime plan of Allah until judgment day .

What Imam ar-Ridha’ ((عليه السلام).) told his brother Zayd ibn Musa?

58-1 Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Sinani narrated that Muhammad ibn Abi Abdullah al-Kufi quoted on the authority of Abul Faydh Salih ibn Ahmad, on the authority of Sahl ibn Ziyad, on the authority of Saleh ibn Abi Hammad, on the authority of Al-Hassan ibn Musa ibn al-Vosha’ al-Baghdadi, “I was with Ali ibn Musa Ar-Ridha’ ((عليه السلام).) in his meeting in Khorasan where Zayd ibn Musa (Imam Ar-Ridha’’s brother) was present and was haughty with those present saying that we (meaning the offspring of Imam Musa Al-Kazim ((عليه السلام).)) are such and such. Abul Hassan Ar-Ridha’ ((عليه السلام).) who was talking to others heard what Zayd had said. He ((عليه السلام).) faced him and said, ‘O Zayd! Have the words of the narrators from Kufa made you so proud when they say, ‘(The Blessed Lady) Fatima ((عليه السلام).) maintained her chastity, thus God has forbidden the Fire from touching her progeny.’ By God, this holds true only for Al-Hassan ((عليه السلام).), Al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) and Fatima’s ((عليه السلام).) own especial offspring. However, if it were the case that your father Musa ibn Ja’far ((عليه السلام).) obeyed God, fasted in the daytime and worshipped God at night, but you disobey God and claim to be equal with him (Musa ibn Ja’far ((عليه السلام).)) in the Hereafter on the Resurrection Day, this would imply that you are dearer than him (Musa ibn Ja’far ((عليه السلام).)) in the sight of God. In fact, Ali ibn Al-Husayn ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘There are double rewards for the good-doers from amongst us, and there are double chastisements for the evil-doers from amongst us.’’”
 

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Al-Hassan al-Washsha’ added, “Then the Imam ((عليه السلام).) turned to us and said, ‘O Hassan! How do you recite the following verse?, ‘He said, ‘O Noah! He is not of thy family: For his conduct is unrighteous.’’1 I (Al-Hassan al-Washsha’) answered, ‘Some people read it in such a way as to mean ‘his conduct is unrighteous’ while others read it in such a manner as to mean ‘he has done ill’. Indeed those who read it in the first form are implying that he is not really of the family of Noah and consider someone else to be his father.’ The Imam ((عليه السلام).) said, ‘No. Indeed he was truly Noah’s son. However, since he disobeyed God the Honorable the Exalted, God separated him from his father. This is exactly the same situation that holds true for us (the Members of the Holy Household of the Prophet Muhammad (S)). Whichever one of us does not obey God the Honorable the Exalted does not belong to us. O Hassan! If you obey God the Honorable the Exalted, then you are one of us - the Members of the Holy Household.’”

http://www.imamreza.net/old/eng/imamreza.php?id=12827

 

Analysis of Hadith-e-Nur – Introduction – Part 1

The Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a) said:

I and Ali b. Abi Talib both were a light (Nur) in the presence of Allah fourteen thousand years before the creation of Adam. When Allah created Adam, he deposited this light in Adam’s loins. We remained together as one light until we were separated in Abdul Muttalib’s loin. Thereafter, I was endowed with Prophethood and Ali with Caliphate.

Among others, the following Sunni scholars have documented Hadis-e-Nur:

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• Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal in his Musnad
• Mir Sayyed Ali Hamdani in Mawaddah al-Qurbah
• Ibn Maghaazili Shaafe’i in his Manaaqib
• Muhammad b. Talhah Shaafe’i in Mataalib al-So’l fi Manaaqib-e-Aal-e-Rasool
• Ibrahim b. Muhammad Hamweeni Shaafe’ei in Faraaid al-Simtain fi Fazaail al-Murtuza wa al-Batool wa al-Sibtain
• Khaarazmi in his al-Manaaqib
• Abd al-Hameed Ibn Abil Hadeed in Sharh-o-Nahj al-Balaaghah
• Haafiz Sulaimaan Qundoozi in Yanabee al-Mawaddah

Shia version of Hadith-e-Nur

For the sake of brevity, we have not delved into the Shia sources of the tradition since it is transmitted consecutively through several reliable chains of narrators (tawaatur) and the authenticity of the tradition is not debatable for the Shias.

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Abdullah b. Abbas narrates from the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a):

Allah created me and Ali from a light (Nur) below the Throne (Arsh) 12,000 years before the creation of Adam. When Allah created Adam, He placed this light in his loin and it transferred from one loin to another till it reached Abdul Muttalib after which it was divided in two parts.

Ma’az b. Jabal narrates from the Holy Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a):

Certainly Allah created me, Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Husain seven thousand years before creating this world.

Maaz b. Jabal asked:

O Messenger of Allah, where were you then?

He ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a) replied:

We were under the throne glorifying, extolling and purifying Allah (from defects).

Maaz asked:

In what form and shape were you all at that time?

He ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a) replied:

We were in the form of lights. When Allah wished to give us a shape, He placed us in the form of a pillar of light in the loin of Adam ((عليه السلام)). He then transferred this Nur from the loins to the wombs. He always kept us purified from filth, polytheism and adultery which were widespread in the period of disbelief. In every era, certain groups of people attained felicity on account of believing in us and several others were unfortunate on account of rejecting us. When He brought us in the loin of Abdul Muttalib, He divided it into two parts and placed one half in the loin of Abdullah ((عليه السلام)) and the other part in that of Abu Talib ((عليه السلام)). Thereafter, my light was transferred to (my mother) Aaminah and the other half to (Ali’s mother) Faatemah bint Asad. I was born from Aaminah and Ali was born from Faatemah bint Asad. Then, the light reverted to me and my daughter Faatemah was born. Likewise, the light was reverted to Ali, and Hasan and Husain were born from both parts of the light i.e. light of Ali and Faatemah. Thus, my light found its way in the Imams from the progeny of Husain till the Day of Judgment.

https://www.seratonline.com/22355/analysis-of-the-tradition-of-light-hadis-e-nur-part-1/

Is it believed by the Shia that the creation of Adam was carried out by the hands of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)?

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question

There is a hadith that holds that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said that he created Prophet Adam ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) with his own hands. Everyone believes in this, but I recently learned that the hadith isn't authentic. If that is the case then why do people believe in such a thing? Please tell me who has narrated this hadith? Is the narrator a reliable one?

Concise answer

If some people believe that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) independently created Prophet Adam ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), it will be against the Quran and considered shirk. Not to mention that the creation of Adam by the physical body (hands) of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) doesn’t comply with existing realities, because his body was created after Prophet Adam’s and in a totally different time, making him one of Prophet Adam’s children and descendants.

Of course taking into consideration the fact that sometimes creation is done through the mediation of others, and there are hadiths that maintain that the light of the infallibles existed before the creation of Adam ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), believing that his creation took place through the mediation of their light won't be shirk and in conflict with Islamic fundamentals, although such a belief itself isn't considered one of the fundamentals of the Shia school of thought, thus more research can be done on it.

Detailed Answer

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa8168

 

[In Gods Name]

So it was Allah that created the heavens and the earth, not the Imams as divine lights by permission of Allah?

[In Gods Name]

22 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

I don't believe in such a thing because every scholar have read and understood the following verse:

"Say:- I am but a human being like you. It has been revealed to me that your God is only One God-" (18:110).

Don't a lot of scholars say the Imams are not just greater than prophets, but they were made before anything else in the universe and were created from light?

[Ibn Tayyar]

22 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

Don't a lot of scholars say the Imams are not just greater than prophets, but they were made before anything else in the universe and were created from light?

There is no issue with believing that they were anwaar before the creation of beings and also believing that they were humans.

They feel pain, feel tiredness, get ill, need to eat and drink, and everything else that is part of a normal human life. They hold no power except that which comes from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and only He has the power of supernatural abilities, and He allows His servants this power in the form of miracles. 

All this doesn't contradict a noorani belief in the Ahlulbayt. There are many reliable narrations which support this view.

[Cool]

23 hours ago, In Gods Name said:

So it was Allah that created the heavens and the earth, not the Imams as divine lights by permission of Allah?

Yes, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is The Creator. 

Imams belongs to His Junood (forces). Imams are deputed to act according to divine will (mashi'ah). So if anyone claim that any Imam created Adam (عليه السلام), he possibly (mis)- interpreting the divine words:

قَالَ يَا إِبْلِيسُ مَا مَنَعَكَ أَنْ تَسْجُدَ لِمَا خَلَقْتُ بِيَدَيَّ

(He said: O Iblis! what prevented you that you should do obeisance to him whom I created with My two hands?)

The two hands are the Knowledge & Power of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Imams on the other hand are the خزان العلم, معادن حكمة الله etc. In case (although not supported by any sahih hadith), they were somehow involved in the creation of Adam (عليه السلام), their role must be under the clause of "Divine knowledge & power" which are His two hands as mentioned in few sahih ahadith. 

وَجَعَلْنَاهُمْ أَئِمَّةً يَهْدُونَ بِأَمْرِنَا

(And We made them imams who guided by Our command)

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not only the Absolute Creator, He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the Absolute Guide. While Prophets & Imams are guide too. 

Allah s w.t is the Absolute Mowla, while Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams are Mowla too. 

So things are not becomes shirk until they remain under the divine command. Like it is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who has made Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams as Mowla (5:55) and it is He who made obligatory their obedience. 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned the parable of His Light in a profound verse of chapter 24:

اللَّهُ نُورُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ ۚ مَثَلُ نُورِهِ كَمِشْكَاةٍ فِيهَا مِصْبَاحٌ ۖ الْمِصْبَاحُ فِي زُجَاجَةٍ ۖ الزُّجَاجَةُ كَأَنَّهَا كَوْكَبٌ دُرِّيٌّ يُوقَدُ مِنْ شَجَرَةٍ مُبَارَكَةٍ زَيْتُونَةٍ لَا شَرْقِيَّةٍ وَلَا غَرْبِيَّةٍ يَكَادُ زَيْتُهَا يُضِيءُ وَلَوْ لَمْ تَمْسَسْهُ نَارٌ ۚ نُورٌ عَلَىٰ نُورٍ ۗ يَهْدِي اللَّهُ لِنُورِهِ مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَيَضْرِبُ اللَّهُ الْأَمْثَالَ لِلنَّاسِ ۗ وَاللَّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ {35}

[Shakir 24:35] Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth; a likeness of His light is as a niche in which is a lamp, the lamp is in a glass, (and) the glass is as it were a brightly shining star, lit from a blessed olive-tree, neither eastern nor western, the oil whereof almost gives light though fire touch it not-- light upon light-- Allah guides to His light whom He pleases, and Allah sets forth parables for men, and Allah is Cognizant of all things.

It only suits to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to present the parable of His Light. Otherwise, we have a clear command:

فلا تصربوا لله الامثال

So my brother! Shi'at in is true form, cannot go outside the boundaries of touheed (zaati & af'aali). Rest assure!

Wassalam!