Ali's (عليه السلام) view about Abu Bakar & Umar, according to Sahih Muslim

[Cool]

Sahih Muslim, in a hadith, has mentioned the opinion of Ali (عليه السلام) & Abbas (عليه السلام) about Abu Bakar & Umar. 

Interestingly, it was Umar bin Khattab who was asking questions from them and what they two responded is interesting. Here is the Arabic text, not quoting the full hadith but relevant part from it:

 ‏.‏ قَالَ فَلَمَّا تُوُفِّيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ أَنَا وَلِيُّ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَجِئْتُمَا تَطْلُبُ مِيرَاثَكَ مِنَ ابْنِ أَخِيكَ وَيَطْلُبُ هَذَا مِيرَاثَ امْرَأَتِهِ مِنْ أَبِيهَا فَقَالَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ مَا نُورَثُ مَا تَرَكْنَا صَدَقَةٌ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَرَأَيْتُمَاهُ كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِنَّهُ لَصَادِقٌ بَارٌّ رَاشِدٌ تَابِعٌ لِلْحَقِّ ثُمَّ تُوُفِّيَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَأَنَا وَلِيُّ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَوَلِيُّ أَبِي بَكْرٍ فَرَأَيْتُمَانِي كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِنِّي لَصَادِقٌ بَارٌّ رَاشِدٌ تَابِعٌ لِلْحَقِّ فَوَلِيتُهَا ثُمَّ جِئْتَنِي أَنْتَ وَهَذَا وَأَنْتُمَا جَمِيعٌ وَأَمْرُكُمَا وَاحِدٌ فَقُلْتُمَا ادْفَعْهَا إِلَيْنَا فَقُلْتُ إِنْ شِئْتُمْ دَفَعْتُهَا إِلَيْكُمَا عَلَى أَنَّ عَلَيْكُمَا عَهْدَ اللَّهِ أَنْ تَعْمَلاَ فِيهَا بِالَّذِي كَانَ يَعْمَلُ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَأَخَذْتُمَاهَا بِذَلِكَ قَالَ أَكَذَلِكَ قَالاَ نَعَمْ

He (Umar) said: When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used it. So both of you got it. He said: Wasn't it like this? They said: Yes. 

https://sunnah.com/muslim:1757c

Irrespective of the story which this narrations portrays about Umar being settling a dispute, I am closely looking at how Umar mentioned the views of Ali (عليه السلام) about him and Abu Bakar:

فَرَأَيْتُمَاهُ كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا

فَرَأَيْتُمَانِي كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا

Interestingly, Bukhari, on the other hand, is telling a totally different story and has presented these words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام):

إنَّا قد عرَفْنا يا أبا بكرٍ فضيلتَك وما أعطاك اللهُ ولم أنفَسْ خيرًا ساقه اللهُ إليك ولكنَّك استبدَدْتَ علينا بالأمرِ

(O Abu Bakar! We know well your superiority and what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given you, and we are not jealous of the goodness that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed upon you, but you did not consult us)

So this is yet another contradiction. If Bukhari is sahih, Muslim is wrong. If Muslim is sahih, Bukhari is wrong, both of them cannot be sahih. 

Lastly, what present day Shias are holding views about Abu Bakar & Umar, are the sunnah of Ali (عليه السلام) as mentioned in this hadith of Sahih Muslim. 

[hanbali]

Go on, quote the entire narration. You wouldn't, because if you quote it in full, the narration will expose you.

[Cool]

49 minutes ago, hanbali said:

Go on, quote the entire narration.

الحمد لله الذي جعل أعداءنا من الحمقى

I have already quoted the link. Those who are interested in viewing complete hadith can cite it on that link:

3 hours ago, Cool said:

https://sunnah.com/muslim:1757c

Edited August 18, 2023 by Cool

[hanbali]

Here is the full hadith, this guy didn't quote the full hadith, since if he quoted it in full, the narration would have exposed him.

It is reported by Zuhri that this tradition was narrated to him by Malik b. Aus who said:

Umar b. al-Khattab sent for me and I came to him when the day had advanced. I found him in his house sitting on his bare bed-stead, reclining on a leather pillow. He said (to me): Malik, some people of your tribe have hastened to me (with a request for help). I have ordered a little money for them. Take it and distribute it among them. I said: I wish you had ordered somebody else to do this job. He said: Malik, take it (and do what you have been told). At this moment (his man-servant) Yarfa' came in and said: Commander of the Faithful, what do you say about Uthman, Abd al-Rabman b. 'Auf, Zubair and Sa'd (who have come to seek an audience with you)? He said: Yes, and permitted them. so they entered. Then he (Yarfa') came again and said: What do you say about 'Ali and Abbas (who are present at the door)? He said: Yes, and permitted them to enter. Abbas said: Commander of the Faithful, decide (the dispute) between me and this sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar. The people (who were present) also said: Yes. Commander of the Faithful, do decide (the dispute) and have mercy on them. Malik b. Aus said: I could well imagine that they had sent them in advance for this purpose (by 'Ali and Abbas). 'Umar said: Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) said: Yes. (Then) Umar said: Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, had done to His Messenger (ﷺ) a special favour that He has not done to anyone else except him. He quoted the Qur'anic verse:" What Allah has bestowed upon His Apostle from (the properties) of the people of township is for Allah and His Messenger". The narrator said: I do not know whether he also recited the previous verse or not. Umar continued: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) distrbuted among you the properties abandoned by Banu Nadir. By Allah, he never preferred himself over you and never appropriated anything to your exclusion. (After a fair distribution in this way) this property was left over. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) would meet from its income his annual expenditure, and what remained would be deposited in the Bait-ul-Mal. (Continuing further) he said: I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained. Do you know this? They said: Yes. Then he adjured Abbas and 'All as he had adjured the other persons and asked: Do you both know this? They said: Yes. He said: When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used it. So both of you got it. He said: Wasn't it like this? They said: Yes. He said: Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.

 

وَحَدَّثَنِي عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ أَسْمَاءَ الضُّبَعِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا جُوَيْرِيَةُ، عَنْ مَالِكٍ، عَنِ الزُّهْرِيِّ، أَنَّ مَالِكَ بْنَ أَوْسٍ، حَدَّثَهُ قَالَ أَرْسَلَ إِلَىَّ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ فَجِئْتُهُ حِينَ تَعَالَى النَّهَارُ - قَالَ - فَوَجَدْتُهُ فِي بَيْتِهِ جَالِسًا عَلَى سَرِيرٍ مُفْضِيًا إِلَى رِمَالِهِ مُتَّكِئًا عَلَى وِسَادَةٍ مِنْ أَدَمٍ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ لِي يَا مَالُ إِنَّهُ قَدْ دَفَّ أَهْلُ أَبْيَاتٍ مِنْ قَوْمِكَ وَقَدْ أَمَرْتُ فِيهِمْ بِرَضْخٍ فَخُذْهُ فَاقْسِمْهُ بَيْنَهُمْ - قَالَ - قُلْتُ لَوْ أَمَرْتَ بِهَذَا غَيْرِي قَالَ خُذْهُ يَا مَالُ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَجَاءَ يَرْفَا فَقَالَ هَلْ لَكَ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ فِي عُثْمَانَ وَعَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ بْنِ عَوْفٍ وَالزُّبَيْرِ وَسَعْدٍ فَقَالَ عُمَرُ نَعَمْ ‏.‏ فَأَذِنَ لَهُمْ فَدَخَلُوا ثُمَّ جَاءَ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ هَلْ لَكَ فِي عَبَّاسٍ وَعَلِيٍّ قَالَ نَعَمْ ‏.‏ فَأَذِنَ لَهُمَا فَقَالَ عَبَّاسٌ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ اقْضِ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنَ هَذَا الْكَاذِبِ الآثِمِ الْغَادِرِ الْخَائِنِ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ الْقَوْمُ أَجَلْ يَا أَمِيرَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ فَاقْضِ بَيْنَهُمْ وَأَرِحْهُمْ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ مَالِكُ بْنُ أَوْسٍ يُخَيَّلُ إِلَىَّ أَنَّهُمْ قَدْ كَانُوا قَدَّمُوهُمْ لِذَلِكَ - فَقَالَ عُمَرُ اتَّئِدَا أَنْشُدُكُمْ بِاللَّهِ الَّذِي بِإِذْنِهِ تَقُومُ السَّمَاءُ وَالأَرْضُ أَتَعْلَمُونَ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏"‏ لاَ نُورَثُ مَا تَرَكْنَا صَدَقَةٌ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالُوا نَعَمْ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ أَقْبَلَ عَلَى الْعَبَّاسِ وَعَلِيٍّ فَقَالَ أَنْشُدُكُمَا بِاللَّهِ الَّذِي بِإِذْنِهِ تَقُومُ السَّمَاءُ وَالأَرْضُ أَتَعْلَمَانِ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ ‏"‏ لاَ نُورَثُ مَا تَرَكْنَاهُ صَدَقَةٌ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالاَ نَعَمْ ‏.‏ فَقَالَ عُمَرُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ جَلَّ وَعَزَّ كَانَ خَصَّ رَسُولَهُ صلى الله عليه وسلم بِخَاصَّةٍ لَمْ يُخَصِّصْ بِهَا أَحَدًا غَيْرَهُ قَالَ ‏{‏ مَا أَفَاءَ اللَّهُ عَلَى رَسُولِهِ مِنْ أَهْلِ الْقُرَى فَلِلَّهِ وَلِلرَّسُولِ‏}‏ مَا أَدْرِي هَلْ قَرَأَ الآيَةَ الَّتِي قَبْلَهَا أَمْ لاَ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَقَسَمَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم بَيْنَكُمْ أَمْوَالَ بَنِي النَّضِيرِ فَوَاللَّهِ مَا اسْتَأْثَرَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَلاَ أَخَذَهَا دُونَكُمْ حَتَّى بَقِيَ هَذَا الْمَالُ فَكَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَأْخُذُ مِنْهُ نَفَقَةَ سَنَةٍ ثُمَّ يَجْعَلُ مَا بَقِيَ أُسْوَةَ الْمَالِ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ قَالَ أَنْشُدُكُمْ بِاللَّهِ الَّذِي بِإِذْنِهِ تَقُومُ السَّمَاءُ وَالأَرْضُ أَتَعْلَمُونَ ذَلِكَ قَالُوا نَعَمْ ‏.‏ ثُمَّ نَشَدَ عَبَّاسًا وَعَلِيًّا بِمِثْلِ مَا نَشَدَ بِهِ الْقَوْمَ أَتَعْلَمَانِ ذَلِكَ قَالاَ نَعَمْ ‏.‏ قَالَ فَلَمَّا تُوُفِّيَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم قَالَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ أَنَا وَلِيُّ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَجِئْتُمَا تَطْلُبُ مِيرَاثَكَ مِنَ ابْنِ أَخِيكَ وَيَطْلُبُ هَذَا مِيرَاثَ امْرَأَتِهِ مِنْ أَبِيهَا فَقَالَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ مَا نُورَثُ مَا تَرَكْنَا صَدَقَةٌ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَرَأَيْتُمَاهُ كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِنَّهُ لَصَادِقٌ بَارٌّ رَاشِدٌ تَابِعٌ لِلْحَقِّ ثُمَّ تُوُفِّيَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ وَأَنَا وَلِيُّ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم وَوَلِيُّ أَبِي بَكْرٍ فَرَأَيْتُمَانِي كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ إِنِّي لَصَادِقٌ بَارٌّ رَاشِدٌ تَابِعٌ لِلْحَقِّ فَوَلِيتُهَا ثُمَّ جِئْتَنِي أَنْتَ وَهَذَا وَأَنْتُمَا جَمِيعٌ وَأَمْرُكُمَا وَاحِدٌ فَقُلْتُمَا ادْفَعْهَا إِلَيْنَا فَقُلْتُ إِنْ شِئْتُمْ دَفَعْتُهَا إِلَيْكُمَا عَلَى أَنَّ عَلَيْكُمَا عَهْدَ اللَّهِ أَنْ تَعْمَلاَ فِيهَا بِالَّذِي كَانَ يَعْمَلُ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فَأَخَذْتُمَاهَا بِذَلِكَ قَالَ أَكَذَلِكَ قَالاَ نَعَمْ ‏.‏ قَالَ ثُمَّ جِئْتُمَانِي لأَقْضِيَ بَيْنَكُمَا وَلاَ وَاللَّهِ لاَ أَقْضِي بَيْنَكُمَا بِغَيْرِ ذَلِكَ حَتَّى تَقُومَ السَّاعَةُ فَإِنْ عَجَزْتُمَا عَنْهَا فَرُدَّاهَا إِلَىَّ ‏.‏

 

The full hadith says that Abbas called Umar 'Ameer ul momineen' and asked him to judge between him and Ali and he called Ali liar sinful and treacherous. So explain to me genius why would Abbas called him Ameer ul momineen and ask him to judge if he consider umar liar and sinful anyway. Umar used rhetoric and ilzami jawab here as it is clear in the narration. He used the same word which Abbas said to Ali against them as a rhetoric.

As for what Ali think of  Abu Bakr and Umar 

 

Sahih Muslim 2389

Ibn Abu Mulaika reported:  I heard Ibn 'Abbas as saying: When 'Umar b. Khattab was placed in the coffin the people gathered around him. They praised him and supplicated for him before the bier was lifted up, and I was one amongst them. Nothing attracted my attention but a person who gripped my shoulder from behind. I saw towards him and found that he was 'Ali. He invoked Allah's mercy upon 'Umar and said: You have left none behind you (whose) deeds (are so enviable) that I love to meet Allah with them. By Allah, I hoped that Allah would keep you and your two associates together. I had often heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: I came and there came too Abu Bakr and 'Umar; I entered and there entered too Abu Bakr and 'Umar; I went out and there went out too Abu Bakr and 'Umar, and I hope and think that Allah will keep you along with them.

حَدَّثَنَا سَعِيدُ بْنُ عَمْرٍو الأَشْعَثِيُّ، وَأَبُو الرَّبِيعِ الْعَتَكِيُّ، وَأَبُو كُرَيْبٍ مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْعَلاَءِ - وَاللَّفْظُ لأَبِي كُرَيْبٍ - قَالَ أَبُو الرَّبِيعِ حَدَّثَنَا وَقَالَ الآخَرَانِ، أَخْبَرَنَا ابْنُ الْمُبَارَكِ، عَنْ عُمَرَ بْنِ سَعِيدِ بْنِ أَبِي حُسَيْنٍ، عَنِ ابْنِ أَبِي مُلَيْكَةَ، قَالَ سَمِعْتُ ابْنَ عَبَّاسٍ، يَقُولُ وُضِعَ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ عَلَى سَرِيرِهِ فَتَكَنَّفَهُ النَّاسُ يَدْعُونَ وَيُثْنُونَ وَيُصَلُّونَ عَلَيْهِ قَبْلَ أَنْ يُرْفَعَ وَأَنَا فِيهِمْ - قَالَ - فَلَمْ يَرُعْنِي إِلاَّ بِرَجُلٍ قَدْ أَخَذَ بِمَنْكِبِي مِنْ وَرَائِي فَالْتَفَتُّ إِلَيْهِ فَإِذَا هُوَ عَلِيُّ فَتَرَحَّمَ عَلَى عُمَرَ وَقَالَ مَا خَلَّفْتَ أَحَدًا أَحَبَّ إِلَىَّ أَنْ أَلْقَى اللَّهَ بِمِثْلِ عَمَلِهِ مِنْكَ وَايْمُ اللَّهِ إِنْ كُنْتُ لأَظُنُّ أَنْ يَجْعَلَكَ اللَّهُ مَعَ صَاحِبَيْكَ وَذَاكَ أَنِّي كُنْتُ أُكَثِّرُ أَسْمَعُ رَسُولَ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَقُولُ ‏ "‏ جِئْتُ أَنَا وَأَبُو بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرُ وَدَخَلْتُ أَنَا وَأَبُو بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرُ وَخَرَجْتُ أَنَا وَأَبُو بَكْرٍ وَعُمَرُ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ فَإِنْ كُنْتُ لأَرْجُو أَوْ لأَظُنُّ أَنْ يَجْعَلَكَ اللَّهُ مَعَهُمَا ‏.‏

Reference  : Sahih Muslim 2389a In-book reference  : Book 44, Hadith 18 USC-MSA web (English) reference  : Book 31, Hadith 588

SAHIH BUKHARI BOOK 57. COMPANIONS OF THE PROPHETS 

Narated By ‘Uqba bin Al-Harith : I saw Abu Bakr carrying Al-Hasan and saying, “Let my father be sacrificed for you; you resemble the Prophet and not ‘Ali,” while ‘Ali was laughing at this.

 

Ali praising Abu Bakr and Umar is mutawatir in hadith and history books. These two narrations would suffice, although I can quote much more.

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by hanbali

[Cool]

4 hours ago, Cool said:

, I am closely looking at how Umar mentioned the views of Ali (عليه السلام) about him and Abu Bakar:

فَرَأَيْتُمَاهُ كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا

فَرَأَيْتُمَانِي كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا

The same story is present in Sahih Bukhari as well. And there you will not find these words lol. Here is the link to that hadith:

https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3094

So again, my following words stands true:

4 hours ago, Cool said:

If Bukhari is sahih, Muslim is wrong. If Muslim is sahih, Bukhari is wrong, both of them cannot be sahih. 

 

[Cool]

3 minutes ago, hanbali said:

this guy didn't quote the full hadith, since if he quoted it in full, the narration would have exposed him.

Without reading what I am saying, how can you even say a word against me . 

The claim is there, look at it with both of your eyes. The words of sahih muslim are there what Umar said in Muslim & what he said in Bukhari. 

Fact of the matter is that you have to admit that any one of these two is not correct, means not sahih. 

Whichever of them is not sahih, why & how the book carrying it is called "sahih"? 

you are extinguished! 

[hanbali]

16 minutes ago, hanbali said:

The full hadith says that Abbas called Umar 'Ameer ul momineen' and asked him to judge between him and Ali and he called Ali liar sinful and treacherous. So explain to me genius why would Abbas called him Ameer ul momineen and ask him to judge if he consider umar liar and sinful anyway. Umar used rhetoric and ilzami jawab here as it is clear in the narration.

As for what Ali think of  Abu Bakr and Umar 

This statement single-handedly debunk your nonsense. So I chose not to waste my time further.

[Cool]

4 minutes ago, hanbali said:

So explain to me genius why would Abbas called him Ameer ul momineen

When you can appoint Muawiyyah & Yazid as your Amirul Mo'mineen, that would mean any كَاذِبً آثِمً غَادِرً خَائِن can be your Ameer. 

So if the words of Muslim are sahih, and you accept these words as sahih, these words are simply displaying the status of first two equals to Muawiyyah & Yazid.

[hanbali]

1 hour ago, hanbali said:

So explain to me genius why would Abbas called him Ameer ul momineen and ask him to judge if he consider umar liar and sinful anyway.

.

And also the narration also said that Ali and Abbas accepted that prophets don't leave inheritance. This further demolishes his point. Since if they considered Abu Bakr liar for saying prophets don't leave inheritance, then why did they accepted that.

Umar b. al-Khattab sent for me and I came to him when the day had advanced. I found him in his house sitting on his bare bed-stead, reclining on a leather pillow. He said (to me): Malik, some people of your tribe have hastened to me (with a request for help). I have ordered a little money for them. Take it and distribute it among them. I said: I wish you had ordered somebody else to do this job. He said: Malik, take it (and do what you have been told). At this moment (his man-servant) Yarfa' came in and said: Commander of the Faithful, what do you say about Uthman, Abd al-Rabman b. 'Auf, Zubair and Sa'd (who have come to seek an audience with you)? He said: Yes, and permitted them. so they entered. Then he (Yarfa') came again and said: What do you say about 'Ali and Abbas (who are present at the door)? He said: Yes, and permitted them to enter. Abbas said: Commander of the Faithful, decide (the dispute) between me and this sinful, treacherous, dishonest liar. The people (who were present) also said: Yes. Commander of the Faithful, do decide (the dispute) and have mercy on them. Malik b. Aus said: I could well imagine that they had sent them in advance for this purpose (by 'Ali and Abbas). 'Umar said: Wait and be patient. I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We (prophets) do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They said: Yes. Then he turned to Abbas and 'Ali and said: I adjure you both by Allah by Whose order the heavens and earth are sustained, don't you know that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity"? They (too) said: Yes. (Then) Umar said: Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, had done to His Messenger (ﷺ) a special favour that He has not done to anyone else except him. He quoted the Qur'anic verse:" What Allah has bestowed upon His Apostle from (the properties) of the people of township is for Allah and His Messenger". The narrator said: I do not know whether he also recited the previous verse or not. Umar continued: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) distrbuted among you the properties abandoned by Banu Nadir. By Allah, he never preferred himself over you and never appropriated anything to your exclusion. (After a fair distribution in this way) this property was left over. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) would meet from its income his annual expenditure, and what remained would be deposited in the Bait-ul-Mal. (Continuing further) he said: I adjure you by Allah by Whose order the heavens and the earth are sustained. Do you know this? They said: Yes. Then he adjured Abbas and 'All as he had adjured the other persons and asked: Do you both know this? They said: Yes. He said: When the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) passed away, Abu Bakr said:" I am the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ)." Both of you came to demand your shares from the property (left behind by the Messenger of Allah). (Referring to Hadrat 'Abbas), he said: You demanded your share from the property of your nephew, and he (referring to 'Ali) demanded a share on behalf of his wife from the property of her father. Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) had said:" We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity." So both of you thought him to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that he was true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. When Abu Bakr passed away and (I have become) the successor of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) and Abu Bakr (Allah be pleased with him), you thought me to be a liar, sinful, treacherous and dishonest. And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth. I became the guardian of this property. Then you as well as he came to me. Both of you have come and your purpose is identical. You said: Entrust the property to us. I said: If you wish that I should entrust it to you, it will be on the condition that both of you will undertake to abide by a pledge made with Allah that you will use it in the same way as the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) used it. So both of you got it. He said: Wasn't it like this? They said: Yes. He said: Then you have (again) come to me with the request that I should adjudge between you. No, by Allah. I will not give any other judgment except this until the arrival of the Doomsday. If you are unable to hold the property on this condition, return it to me.

 This further proves that what umar said to both of them was rhetoric and sarcasm.

 

 

 

Edited August 18, 2023 by hanbali

[Cool]

2 minutes ago, hanbali said:

why would Abbas called him Ameer ul momineen and ask him to judge if he consider umar liar and sinful anyway.

lol, Umar have to ask that question from them but he didn't ask. How they are seeking the judgement from what they consider as كاذب، أثم، غادر، خائن. But he started his own praise: 

5 hours ago, Cool said:

And Allah knows that I am true, virtuous, well-guided and a follower of truth.

 Point is that, whether Ali (عليه السلام) & Abbas (رضي الله عنه) held these views aboit him or not, as quoted in the hadith of Muslim.

And why these words are not present in the hadith of Bukhari mentioning the exact story.

Which one of them is sahih? 

 

[Cool]

1 hour ago, hanbali said:

And also the narration also said that Ali and Abbas accepted that prophets don't leave inheritance. This further demolishes his point.

lol, what that demolish are the words uttered by Umar:

7 hours ago, Cool said:

فَرَأَيْتُمَاهُ كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا

فَرَأَيْتُمَانِي كَاذِبًا آثِمًا غَادِرًا خَائِنًا 

 So you are here actually demolishing what was said by Umar bin Khattab. 

Regarding the claim "prophets don't leave inheritance", I will discuss it too in light of the words used in this same hadith. At the moment, I Am waiting for your answer, which one of the two narrations is sahih? The one in Muslim or the one in Bukhari? 

[Abu Nur]

On 8/18/2023 at 12:16 PM, Cool said:

At the moment, I Am waiting for your answer, which one of the two narrations is sahih? The one in Muslim or the one in Bukhari? 

Hadith that clearly demonstrate that two have opinion about Umar and Abu Bakr suddenly in another hadith Abbas referred it to Ali (عليه السلام) instead. History is know on how much tarnish have done toward Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

[ShiaMan14]

@hanbali - fancy seeing you here. I hope you are well. Tip of the day:

Abu Bakr and Umar are better than Ali at rejecting the Prophet's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) wishes on his deathbed.

[Cool]

28 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Hadith that clearly demonstrate that two have opinion about Umar and Abu Bakr suddenly in another hadith Abbas referred it to Ali (عليه السلام) instead. History is know on how much tarnish have done toward Imam Ali (عليه السلام). 

If you look at the hadith of Bukhari, you will not find these words neither from Abbas nor from Umar.

So the "rhetoric & sarcasm" explanation is nothing but wild assumption. 

Or maybe some one has edited either of these two ahadith. In any case, one of these two is not sahih. 

Now I haven't addressed other key points at the moment. I will include them as well once the defenders of these books acknowledge which of these two is sahih. 

[Abu Nur]

Also this inheritance statement is very weird thing because it seems that Sunnis takes Abu Bakr and Umar argument of "We do not have any heirs; what we leave behind is (to be given in) charity", when in reality we can ask a valid question is that why Imam Ali (عليه السلام) who is best judge, did still seek this property? It is impossible that he have never heard this prophet (saws) statement before nor did he forgot it or misunderstood it. So it must be, as best judge, that he have a good reason to claim something that in reality it belonged to Fatima (عليه السلام).

Edited August 18, 2023 by Abu Nur

[Cool]

Time to look another point in the hadith of Sahih Muslim:

(Umar Said) "The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) would meet from its income his annual expenditure, and what remained would be deposited in the Bait-ul-Mal."

فَكَانَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم يَأْخُذُ مِنْهُ نَفَقَةَ سَنَةٍ ثُمَّ يَجْعَلُ مَا بَقِيَ أُسْوَةَ الْمَالِ

The very next hadith 1757d mentions more contradictions:

"Umar b. al-Khattab sent for me and said: Some families from your tribe have come to me (then follows the foregoing hadith) by Malik with the difference that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) would spend on his family for a year. And sometimes Ma'mar said: He would retain sustenance for his family for a year, and what was left of that he spent in the cause of Allah, the Majestic and Exalted."

قَالَ أَرْسَلَ إِلَىَّ عُمَرُ بْنُ الْخَطَّابِ فَقَالَ إِنَّهُ قَدْ حَضَرَ أَهْلُ أَبْيَاتٍ مِنْ قَوْمِكَ ‏.‏ بِنَحْوِ حَدِيثِ مَالِكٍ ‏.‏ غَيْرَ أَنَّ فِيهِ، فَكَانَ يُنْفِقُ عَلَى أَهْلِهِ مِنْهُ سَنَةً وَرُبَّمَا قَالَ مَعْمَرٌ يَحْبِسُ قُوتَ أَهْلِهِ مِنْهُ سَنَةً ثُمَّ يَجْعَلُ مَا بَقِيَ مِنْهُ مَجْعَلَ مَالِ اللَّهِ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ ‏.‏

No mention of Bait-ul-maal here.

And at the very next page, you will find the hadith 1759a where narrative of Syeda Fatima s.a will appear:

"So Abu Bakr refused to hand over anything from it to Fatima who got angry with Abu Bakr for this reason. She forsook him and did not talk to him until the end of her life. She lived for six months after the death of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). When she died, her husband. 'Ali b. Abu Talib, buried her at night. He did not inform Abu Bakr about her death and offered the funeral prayer over her himself."

فَأَبَى أَبُو بَكْرٍ أَنْ يَدْفَعَ إِلَى فَاطِمَةَ شَيْئًا فَوَجَدَتْ فَاطِمَةُ عَلَى أَبِي بَكْرٍ فِي ذَلِكَ - قَالَ - فَهَجَرَتْهُ فَلَمْ تُكَلِّمْهُ حَتَّى تُوُفِّيَتْ وَعَاشَتْ بَعْدَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم سِتَّةَ أَشْهُرٍ فَلَمَّا تُوُفِّيَتْ دَفَنَهَا زَوْجُهَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ لَيْلاً وَلَمْ يُؤْذِنْ بِهَا أَبَا بَكْرٍ وَصَلَّى عَلَيْهَا

Now the anger of Syeda Fatima s.a means what? Here is another sahih hadith "متفق عليه":

فاطِمَةُ بَضْعَةٌ مِنِّي، فمَن أغْضَبَها أغْضَبَنِي.

الراوي : المسور بن مخرمة | المحدث : البخاري | المصدر : صحيح البخاري | الصفحة أو الرقم : 3767 | خلاصة حكم المحدث : [صحيح] | التخريج : أخرجه البخاري (3714)، ومسلم (2449)

 

[Cool]

2 minutes ago, Cool said:

And at the very next page, you will find the hadith 1759a where narrative of Syeda Fatima s.a will appear:

"So Abu Bakr refused to hand over anything from it to Fatima who got angry with Abu Bakr for this reason. She forsook him and did not talk to him until the end of her life. She lived for six months after the death of the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). When she died, her husband. 'Ali b. Abu Talib, buried her at night. He did not inform Abu Bakr about her death and offered the funeral prayer over her himself."

فَأَبَى أَبُو بَكْرٍ أَنْ يَدْفَعَ إِلَى فَاطِمَةَ شَيْئًا فَوَجَدَتْ فَاطِمَةُ عَلَى أَبِي بَكْرٍ فِي ذَلِكَ - قَالَ - فَهَجَرَتْهُ فَلَمْ تُكَلِّمْهُ حَتَّى تُوُفِّيَتْ وَعَاشَتْ بَعْدَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم سِتَّةَ أَشْهُرٍ فَلَمَّا تُوُفِّيَتْ دَفَنَهَا زَوْجُهَا عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ لَيْلاً وَلَمْ يُؤْذِنْ بِهَا أَبَا بَكْرٍ وَصَلَّى عَلَيْهَا

Lets move one more step ahead in this very hadith (1759a):

"When she died, her husband. 'Ali b. Abu Talib, buried her at night. He did not inform Abu Bakr about her death and offered the funeral prayer over her himself. During the lifetime of Fatima, 'All received (special) regard from the people. After she had died, he felt estrangement in the faces of the people towards him. So he sought to make peace with Abu Bakr and offer his allegiance to him. He had not yet owed allegiance to him as Caliph during these months."

Now lets move to 1759b:

"I have heard from the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ). Then he quoted the hadith having nearly the same meaning as the one which has been narrated by Uqail on the authority of al-Zuhri (and which his gone before) except that in his version he said: Then 'Ali stood up, extolled the merits of Abu Bakr mentioned his superiority, and his earlier acceptance of Islam. Then he walked to Abu Bakr and swore allegiance to him. (At this) people turned towards 'Ali and said: you have done the right thing. And they became favourably inclined to 'Ali after he had adopted the proper course of action."

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

16 hours ago, hanbali said:

Commander of the Faithful

Salam

ʾAmīr al-Muʾminīn (Arabic: أمیرالمؤمنین) literally means the ruler or governor of Muslim believers. It is a title that Shiites find to be specific to Imam 'Ali (a). According to hadiths, the title was used for 'Ali b. Abi Talib (a) at the time of the Prophet (s). Shiites maintain that it is not permissible to use this title for Rashidun Caliphs and others. What is more, they even hold that it is not permissible to use the title for other eleven Imams (a) either. The title has, however, been commonly used by other Muslims with a political and religious connotation. Sunni Muslims use "Amir al-Mu'minin" for all Rashidun Caliphs, Umayyad Caliphs and Abbasid Caliphs.

Historical Background

Shiites believe that the title was used for 'Ali b. Abi Talib (a) in the period of the Prophet (s) too,^[2] appealing to hadiths cited in Shiite and Sunni sources. For example, Ibn 'Asakir is quoted Abu Burayda al-Aslami as saying that

"The Prophet (s) ordered that we greet 'Ali b. Abi Talib (a) as Amir al-Mu'minin".

In another hadith, Abu Burayda is also quoted as saying that

"Abu Bakr came to the Prophet (s). The Prophet (s) told him: 'Go and greet Amir al-Mu'minin.' Abu Bakr said: 'even now that you are still alive?' The Prophet (s) said: 'Yes.' Then 'Umar b. al-Khattab came and the Prophet (s) said the same to him."

However, Sunni Muslims believe that after the demise of the Prophet (s), 'Umar was the first Caliph who used the title of "Amir al-Mu'minin" for himself. Ibn Khaldun took 'Abd Allah b. Jahsh to be the first person who gave the title to 'Umar, but some others took 'Amr b. al-'As or Mughira b. Shu'ba to be the first people who gave the title to 'Umar.^[3] However, 'Abd Allah b. Jahsh died before the caliphate of 'Umar, and so he cannot be the one who gave the title to 'Umar.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Amir_al-Mu'minin

Lesson 26: Amir al-Muminin Ali , the Chosen Successor of the Prophet

The Successor to the Prophet (S)

The Twelve-Imam Shi'ites believe that after the Prophet of Allah, the leadership of the world of Islam fell to Amir al-Mu'minin, 'Ali ((عليه السلام).), and then to his eleven pure descendants.1

This idea, this belief, is as clear as the rays of the morning sun, and those who are unprejudiced and impartial will have no cause for doubt in it.

Jabir ibn 'Abdillah, one of the special companions of the Prophet (S) said: 'The day the ayah concerning obedience to Allah, the Prophet and those vested with authority was revealed2 I asked the Prophet: We know Allah and the Prophet, but who is the third?'

He said: They are the Imams, my successors, the first of whom is Ali ibn Abi Talib, then, in order, Hasan, Husayn, Ali ibn Husayn, Muhammad ibn 'Ali, who was called Baqir in the Torah, and whom you, Jabir, will meet and to whom you will convey my salami then, after him, Ja'far ibn Muhammad as-Sadiq, Musa ibn Ja'far, 'Ali ibn Musa, Muhammad ibn Ali, 'Ali ibn Muhammad, Hasan ibn 'Ali, and in the end the son of Hasan ibn 'Ali will come, whose name will be the same as mine (Muhammad Abul-Qasim).3”

Safi, Muntakhab al-Athar, p. 101. The writer quotes so similar hadith From Sunni and Shia sources

 

“Allah gave me wilayat and I am more worthy than the believers and the followers themselves. Therefore to whosoever I am his (mawla) master and guardian, 'Ali is his guardian and master.4

4. According to Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, the Imam of Hanbalites, the Prophet (S) repeated this sentence four times.

 

https://www.al-islam.org/roots-religion/lesson-26-amir-al-muminin-ali-chosen-successor-prophet

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

Life of Imam Ali

Amir Al Mumineen

http://www.shiastudy.ir/en/shia-history/life-of-imam-ali/amir-al-mumineen

 

One Thousand Virtues & Merits Of Amir Al-Mu’minin ‘Ali Ibn Abu Talib

‘Ali Reza Sabiri Yazdi

This text is a collection of one thousand traditions from both Shi’a and Sunni sources about Imam ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib (‘a). They present his eminent stature and virtues dealing with a wide variety of topics including Imam Ali’s grandeur, knowledge, justice, worship, bravery, humility, and supremacy.

https://www.al-islam.org/one-thousand-virtues-merits-amir-al-muminin-ali-ibn-abu-talib

[Ashvazdanghe]

The master ‘Abdul-Fattah ‘Abdul-Maqsud has said in <al-Imam Ali ibn Aby Talib> book (4) that: “even if Abu Bakr is the honest minister of the Prophet (s.a.), Ali is his shadow, because Ali has never been separated from the Prophet (s.a.). The Prophet (s.a.) concluded the brotherhood contract between the immigrants (Muhajirin), who had come with him, and the Helpers (Ansar), to whom the Prophet (s.a.) had given refuge. He didn’t choose Abu Bakr, ‘Umar, nor Hamzah, but he chose Ali for concluding the spiritual brotherhood (Ukhuwwat) contract, who had been raised by the Prophet, himself. The Prophet (s.a.) preferred Ali to all of his friends (including the close, and the stranger ones). Based on all of these proofs, it can be realized that, the Prophet concluded the brotherhood contract between Abu Bakr and ‘Umar.

one day, the Prophet (s.a.) concluded brotherhood contract among his companions, such as Abu Bakr, ‘Umar and others, except Ali ((عليه السلام).). For this occasion, he went to the Prophet (s.a.) and told him that: “you concluded a brotherhood contract among the companions, but you didn’t do that among me and others!”. The Prophet told him that: “You are my brother in this world and the next world”.
The document of this narrative is from the following people:
1. Amir al-Muminin Ali ((عليه السلام).) 2. ‘Umar ibn Khattab 3. Anas ibn Malik 4. Zayd ibn Aby Awfa 5.’Abdullah ibn Aby Awfa 6. Ibn Abbas 7. Makhduj ibn Zayd 8. Jabir ibn ‘Abdullah 9. Abuzar Ghaffari 10. ‘Amir ibn Rabi’ah 11. ‘Abdullah ibn ‘Umar 12. Aby Ammamah 13. Zayd ibn Arqam 14. Sa’id ibn Musayyib (1)

You can also refer to the following books: <Jami’ Tirmizi>, <Masabih Baghawi>, <Mustadrak Hakim>, <Isti’ab> -which considers Mu’akhat tradition as a reliable tradition-, <Taysir al-Wusul>, <Mishkat al-Masabih> -in Mirqat margin- and <al-Riyaz al-Nazarah>.

It has been mentioned in <al-Riyaz al-Nazarah> (3) that: the best act for showing the high position of Ali was the conclusion of the brotherhood contract by the Prophet, because he had concluded this contract among those who had the same features. As a result, he concluded the brotherhood contract between Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, but he chose Ali ((عليه السلام).) for himself. What a great honour!

5. Imam Ahmad has quoted from Bara’ Ibn ‘Azib with two documents that he said, “we were with the Prophet (s.a.) until we stopped in Ghadir Khum. It was time for prayer and we all raised for performing the prayer, a carpet was spread (over the ground) under two trees, then the Prophet (s.a.) performed noon prayer and put his hand in Ali’s and said, “Don’t you know that I am more superior to the believers than themselves?”, “yes, you are”, they answered, then he grasped Ali’s hand and said, “those whose leader I am, Ali will be their leader. O God, love the lovers of Ali and be an enemy to his enemies””. Bara’ said, “after that, ‘Umar came to Ali ((عليه السلام).) and told him that, “O Abu Talib’s son, lucky you, you became the leader of every believing man and woman”.[6]

[6] Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, Vol. 4, p. 281, Kanz al-‘Ummal, Vol. 13, p. 133, Faza’il al-Khamsah Min al-Sihah Sitah, Vol. 1, p. 350

Many virtues have been enumerated for Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)); according to Shiite and some Sunni sources [of Hadith and narration],  almost 300 verses of the Holy Qur'an are about his virtues, such as the verse of Mubahila, the verse of Tathir, the verse of Velayat, and some other verses that indicate his infallibility.

.فَمَنْ حَآجَّكَ فِيهِ مِن بَعدِ مَا جَاءكَ مِنَ الْعلْمِ فَقُلْ تَعالَوْاْ نَدْع أَبْنَاءنَا وَأَبْنَاءكُمْ وَنِسَاءنَا وَنِسَاءكُمْ وَأَنفُسَنَا وأَنفُسَكُمْ ثُمَّ نَبْتَهِلْ فَنَجْعل لَّعنَةُ اللّهِ علَي الْكَاذِبِينَ

(Sura Al-Emran, verses 61-63 Should anyone argue with you concerning him, after the knowledge that has come to you, say, ‘Come! Let us call our sons and your sons, our women, and your women, our souls, and your souls, then let us pray earnestly and call down Allah’s curse upon the liars)

Many people believe that the Prophet (P.B.U.H) took no one other than Ali, Fatimah, Hassan, and Hussayn ((عليه السلام)) under that cloak during his controversy with the Christians. The purpose of Allah Almighty from "our sons is" Hassan and Hussayn ((عليه السلام)) and the meaning of "our women" is Fatimah (S.A) and the meaning of "and our souls" is Ali ibn Abi Talib ((عليه السلام)). (Uyun Akhbar-rur-Reza ((عليه السلام)) volume 1, p 78,)

 

https://makarem.ir/maaref/en/article/index/250276/the-brotherhood-of-ali-(as)-with-the-prophet-(sa)

https://en.hawzahnews.com/news/362736/To-whom-has-the-verse-of-Proclamation-Tabligh-been-revealed

https://en.hawzahnews.com/news/362357/Amir-Al-Mu-minin-A-S-the-spiritual-father

[Ashvazdanghe]

It has been narrated through fourteen companions that the Holy Prophet said : Whoever loves ‘Ali, he surely loves me; and whoever loves me, he surely loves Allah, and whoever loves Allah, He will cause him to enter Paradise. Whoever hates ‘Ali, he surely hates me; and whoever hates me, he surely hates Allah, and whoever hates Allah, He will cause him to enter the Fire. And whoever hurts ‘Ali, he surely hurts me, and whoever hurts me, he surely hurts Allah, (surely, those who hurt Allah and His Messenger, Allah has cursed them in the present world and the world to come, and has prepared for them a humbling chastisement [Qur’an, 33 :57] ).

(al-Mustadrak, vol.3, pp.127—128; 130; Hilyah al-awliya’, vol.l, pp.66-67; al-Isti‘ab, vol.3, p.1101; Usd al-ghabah, vol.4, p. 383; al-Isabah, vol.3, pp.496-497; Majma‘ az-zawa’id, vol.9, pp. 108—109, 129, 131, 132, 133; Kanz al-‘ummal, vol.12, pp.202, 209, 218—219; vol.15, pp.95—96; vol.17, p.70; ar-Riyad an-nadirah, vol.2, pp.166, 167, 209, 214; al-Manaqib, Ibn al-Maghazili, pp.103,196, 382)

Quote

At the same time, the Holy Prophet used to caution the ummah against exaggeration in (Amir al-mu’minin’s) love of him in exceeding the bounds of Islam in love for him. One who does so is called ghali, i.e. he who believes that the Holy Prophet or Amir al-mu’minin or any of the Shi‘ite Imams is god, or attributes to them the special attributes of Allah, or believes that the twelve Imams are prophets, or makes any claim which they (the Holy Prophet and Imams) did not make about themselves. On the contrary, the Holy Prophet had also forbidden any offence or denigration concerning them (Imams); and he used to blame those who lay false and baseless accusations against them as well as those who hate and bear malice.

https://hadith.net/en/post/66634/nahj-al-balagha-hadith-n-469/

[Cool]

On 8/18/2023 at 10:16 PM, Cool said:

Regarding the claim "prophets don't leave inheritance", I will discuss it too in light of the words used in this same hadith

فَقَالَ أَبُو بَكْرٍ قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم ‏"‏ مَا نُورَثُ مَا تَرَكْنَا صَدَقَةٌ ‏"‏

Time to discuss this claim, it is better to also include another hadith which is متفق عليه i.e., present in both Sunni & Shi'i sources with slight variation of words:

إن العلماء ورثة الأنبياء وإن الأنبياء لم يورِّثوا دينارًا ولا درهمًا، إنَّما ورَّثوا العلم، فمن أخذَه أخذ بحظٍّ وافر.

(روى أبو داود والترمذي وابن ماجه وابن حبان في صحيحه) 

(The scholars are the heirs of the prophets, and the prophets did not bequeath a dinar or a dirham, but they bequeathed knowledge.)

* The first hadith categorically negates the possibility of Prophets leaving inheritance.  (ما نورث)

* The second hadith affirms the possibility that Prophets do leave inheritance but that is only knowledge. And scholars are the inheritors of prophets knowledge.

* The second hadith affirms that Prophets don't leave dinar or dirhams in inheritance. 

* The first hadith affirms that Prophets do leave dinar & dirhams but that would be considered as charity. 

Now to tread through these apparent contradictions, we need to see them through the magnifying glasses of Quran as well as history. 

So firstly, we start with viewing whether Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) inherited something from his parents? 

According to historical records, Prophet's father (Abdullah (عليه السلام)) left five camels, a herd of sheep and goats, an Abyssinian slave nurse, called Umm Ayman, who was to take care of his son Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and a house, all of these things are inherited by Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

Now lets see the claim whether Prophets leave dinar or dirham? If they leave, would it be considered as charity? 

ذِكْرُ رَحْمَتِ رَبِّكَ عَبْدَهُ زَكَرِيَّا إِذْ نَادَىٰ رَبَّهُ نِدَاءً خَفِيًّا

قَالَ رَبِّ إِنِّي وَهَنَ الْعَظْمُ مِنِّي وَاشْتَعَلَ الرَّأْسُ شَيْبًا وَلَمْ أَكُنْ بِدُعَائِكَ رَبِّ شَقِيًّا

وَإِنِّي خِفْتُ الْمَوَالِيَ مِنْ وَرَائِي وَكَانَتِ امْرَأَتِي عَاقِرًا فَهَبْ لِي مِنْ لَدُنْكَ وَلِيًّا 

19:2-5 A mention of the mercy of your Lord to His servant Zakariya. When he called upon his Lord in a low voice, He said: My Lord! surely my bones are weakened and my head flares with hoariness, and, my Lord! I have never been unsuccessful in my prayer to Thee: And surely I fear my cousins (kinfolks/relatives) after me, and my wife is barren, therefore grant me from Thyself an heir,

The fear of Prophet Zakariya mentioned in above verse is very meaningful. At least it confirms that the fear of Prophet Zakiriya is not for his knowledge, his relative cannot steal his knowledge in anyway. So the word "waritha" in the following verse is not limited to knowledge but also includes personal belongings:

يَرِثُنِي وَيَرِثُ مِنْ آلِ يَعْقُوبَ ۖ وَاجْعَلْهُ رَبِّ رَضِيًّا

19:6 Who should inherit me and inherit from the children of Yaqoub, and make him, my Lord, one in whom Thou art well pleased.

The first verb (Yarithu) refers to the inheritance of his property which Zakariyya thought would be appropriated by his relatives if he remained childless; and the second verb refers to the prophethood, he wanted for Yahya, for which there was no need to fear that it would be taken by any one. 

Another verse says this:

 

وَوَرِثَ سُلَيْمَانُ دَاوُودَ

27:16 And Sulayman was Dawood's heir 

So if what Prophets left is sadaqah, lets see what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed to Dawood (عليه السلام):

 

فَهَزَمُوهُم بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ وَقَتَلَ دَاوُدُ جَالُوتَ وَآتَاهُ اللّهُ الْمُلْكَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَعَلَّمَهُ مِمَّا يَشَاء

2:251 And thereupon, by God's leave, they routed them. And David slew Goliath; and God bestowed upon him kingdom, and wisdom, and imparted to him the knowledge of whatever He willed.

So al-mulk, al-hikmah as well as other knowledge are the things inherited by Sulayman (عليه السلام) from Dawood (عليه السلام).

So it is apparent from the above Quranic verses and historical records that Prophets do leave personal belongings along with the knowledge and those personal belongings are not the charity but deserve to be handed over to their heirs. 

[Abu Nur]

I re read the narration and it is clear that Umar says that Abbas and Ali was thinking such a words about Abu Bakr and Umar. Arabic is clear. Word is used as plural referring to Abbas and Ali. 

Edited March 27, 2024 by Abu Nur

[145_turbo_16V]

Does it make a difference? They're all going to heaven anyway.

[Qadri_01]

I read the full narration. The narration is clear that abbas used harsh words against ali and umar use that as a rhetoric. The narration clearly says that abbas called umar 'ameerr ul momineen' and both of them affirmed that prophet don't leave inheritance.

[Qadri_01]

8 minutes ago, 145_turbo_16V said:

Does it make a difference? They're all going to heaven anyway.

Indeed they are all going to heaven. Your rhetoric 'oh sunnis believe all of them are in jannah' and indirectly making fun of it don't mean a thing. Quran says all of them are in jannah.

Surah hadid 10

 57:10 وَمَا لَكُمْ أَلَّا تُنفِقُوا۟ فِى سَبِيلِ ٱللَّهِ وَلِلَّهِ مِيرَٰثُ ٱلسَّمَـٰوَٰتِ وَٱلْأَرْضِ ۚ لَا يَسْتَوِى مِنكُم مَّنْ أَنفَقَ مِن قَبْلِ ٱلْفَتْحِ وَقَـٰتَلَ ۚ أُو۟لَـٰٓئِكَ أَعْظَمُ دَرَجَةًۭ مِّنَ ٱلَّذِينَ أَنفَقُوا۟ مِنۢ بَعْدُ وَقَـٰتَلُوا۟ ۚ وَكُلًّۭا وَعَدَ ٱللَّهُ ٱلْحُسْنَىٰ ۚ وَٱللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرٌۭ ١٠ 

And why should you not spend in the cause of Allah, while Allah is the ˹sole˺ inheritor of the heavens and the earth? Those of you who donated and fought before the victory ˹over Mecca˺ are unparalleled. They are far greater in rank than those who donated and fought afterwards. Yet Allah has promised each a fine reward. And Allah is All-Aware of what you do.   

[Qadri_01]

On 8/21/2023 at 12:18 AM, Cool said:

Time to discuss this claim, it is better to also include another hadith which is متفق عليه i.e., present in both Sunni & Shi'i sources with slight variation of words:

إن العلماء ورثة الأنبياء وإن الأنبياء لم يورِّثوا دينارًا ولا درهمًا، إنَّما ورَّثوا العلم، فمن أخذَه أخذ بحظٍّ وافر.

(روى أبو داود والترمذي وابن ماجه وابن حبان في صحيحه) 

(The scholars are the heirs of the prophets, and the prophets did not bequeath a dinar or a dirham, but they bequeathed knowledge.)

* The first hadith categorically negates the possibility of Prophets leaving inheritance.  (ما نورث)

* The second hadith affirms the possibility that Prophets do leave inheritance but that is only knowledge. And scholars are the inheritors of prophets knowledge.

* The second hadith affirms that Prophets don't leave dinar or dirhams in inheritance. 

* The first hadith affirms that Prophets do leave dinar & dirhams but that would be considered as charity. 

Now to tread through these apparent contradictions, we need to see them through the magnifying glasses of Quran as well as history. 

This hadith is authentically reported in your sources too.

محمد بن الحسن وعلي بن محمد، عن سهل بن زياد، ومحمد بن يحيى، عن أحمد بن محمد جميعا، عن جعفر بن محمد الأشعري، عن عبد الله بن ميمون القداح، وعلي بن إبراهيم، عن أبيه، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن القداح، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السلام قال: قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله: من سلك طريقا يطلب فيه علما سلك الله به  طريقا إلى الجنة وإن الملائكة لتضع أجنحتها لطالب العلم رضا به  وإنه يستغفر لطالب العلم من في السماء ومن في الأرض حتى الحوت في البحر، وفضل العالم على العابد كفضل القمر على سائر النجوم ليلة البدر، وإن العلماء ورثة الأنبياء إن الأنبياء لم يورثوا دينارا ولا درهما ولكن ورثوا العلم فمن أخذ منه أخذ بحظ وافر.

  Abu Abdillah (Imam Jafar as-Sadiq) says that Rasulullah(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) said:..And the Scholars are the heirs of the Prophets; and the Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance; but they left knowledge. Therefore whosoever takes knowledge has taken a great portion.  (Shia book, al-Kafi vol 1, H 57, Ch 4, h#1. Regarding the authenticity of this hadith, Shia Allamah Muhammad Baqir Majlisi states in his Mirat al-Uqul: [This] hadith has two chains of narration. The first is majhul [contains an unknown narrator], and the second is hasan or muwaththaq.[Together] they do not fall short of being sahih. [Miraat al-Uqul, vol. 1 page 111].

On 8/21/2023 at 12:18 AM, Cool said:

According to historical records, Prophet's father (Abdullah (عليه السلام)) left five camels, a herd of sheep and goats, an Abyssinian slave nurse, called Umm Ayman, who was to take care of his son Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and a house, all of these things are inherited by Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

You didn't read the hadith properly. The hadith doesn't say, prophet won't inherit something from their parents. It says prophet won't be inherited.

 

On 8/21/2023 at 12:18 AM, Cool said:

Now lets see the claim whether Prophets leave dinar or dirham? If they leave, would it be considered as charity? 

ذِكْرُ رَحْمَتِ رَبِّكَ عَبْدَهُ زَكَرِيَّا إِذْ نَادَىٰ رَبَّهُ نِدَاءً خَفِيًّا

قَالَ رَبِّ إِنِّي وَهَنَ الْعَظْمُ مِنِّي وَاشْتَعَلَ الرَّأْسُ شَيْبًا وَلَمْ أَكُنْ بِدُعَائِكَ رَبِّ شَقِيًّا

وَإِنِّي خِفْتُ الْمَوَالِيَ مِنْ وَرَائِي وَكَانَتِ امْرَأَتِي عَاقِرًا فَهَبْ لِي مِنْ لَدُنْكَ وَلِيًّا 

19:2-5 A mention of the mercy of your Lord to His servant Zakariya. When he called upon his Lord in a low voice, He said: My Lord! surely my bones are weakened and my head flares with hoariness, and, my Lord! I have never been unsuccessful in my prayer to Thee: And surely I fear my cousins (kinfolks/relatives) after me, and my wife is barren, therefore grant me from Thyself an heir,

The fear of Prophet Zakariya mentioned in above verse is very meaningful. At least it confirms that the fear of Prophet Zakiriya is not for his knowledge, his relative cannot steal his knowledge in anyway. So the word "waritha" in the following verse is not limited to knowledge but also includes personal belongings:

يَرِثُنِي وَيَرِثُ مِنْ آلِ يَعْقُوبَ ۖ وَاجْعَلْهُ رَبِّ رَضِيًّا

19:6 Who should inherit me and inherit from the children of Yaqoub, and make him, my Lord, one in whom Thou art well pleased.

The first verb (Yarithu) refers to the inheritance of his property which Zakariyya thought would be appropriated by his relatives if he remained childless; and the second verb refers to the prophethood, he wanted for Yahya, for which there was no need to fear that it would be taken by any one. 

Another verse says this:

 

وَوَرِثَ سُلَيْمَانُ دَاوُودَ

27:16 And Sulayman was Dawood's heir 

So if what Prophets left is sadaqah, lets see what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has bestowed to Dawood (عليه السلام):

 

فَهَزَمُوهُم بِإِذْنِ اللّهِ وَقَتَلَ دَاوُدُ جَالُوتَ وَآتَاهُ اللّهُ الْمُلْكَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَعَلَّمَهُ مِمَّا يَشَاء

2:251 And thereupon, by God's leave, they routed them. And David slew Goliath; and God bestowed upon him kingdom, and wisdom, and imparted to him the knowledge of whatever He willed.

All this doesn't specify the inheritance is of property, rather it is general. And both sunni and shi'i ahadith confirms that prophets don't leave material properties as inheritance. This inheritance in these verses is other than inheritance of material property.

Edited March 28, 2024 by Qadri_01

[145_turbo_16V]

I'm poking fun of your "logic" that that verse is unconditional. Sahaba made sacrifices and they will be rewarded. There should be no doubt about that at all. But they are also humans and the can deviate or NOT. It's up to them.

But each soul will also be judged. Nobody gets a free pass. What was rewarded today can be burnt tomorrow.

 

فَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ خَيْرًۭا يَرَهُۥ

وَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍۢ شَرًّۭا يَرَهُۥ

Quran 99:7-8

يَوْمَ تَجِدُ كُلُّ نَفْسٍۢ مَّا عَمِلَتْ مِنْ خَيْرٍۢ مُّحْضَرًۭا وَمَا عَمِلَتْ مِن سُوٓءٍۢ تَوَدُّ لَوْ أَنَّ بَيْنَهَا وَبَيْنَهُۥٓ أَمَدًۢا بَعِيدًۭا ۗ وَيُحَذِّرُكُمُ ٱللَّهُ نَفْسَهُۥ ۗ وَٱللَّهُ رَءُوفٌۢ بِٱلْعِبَادِ

Quran 3:30

57:10 doesn't negate all other verses. Everyone will face a day of accounting.

That's why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said in this verse your deeds CAN BE NULLIFIED (i.e. you got your Jannah just now, now it's gone, because of you!) ...just by raising your voice against Rasullullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

 يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ لَا تَرْفَعُوٓا۟ أَصْوَٰتَكُمْ فَوْقَ صَوْتِ ٱلنَّبِىِّ وَلَا تَجْهَرُوا۟ لَهُۥ بِٱلْقَوْلِ كَجَهْرِ بَعْضِكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ أَن تَحْبَطَ أَعْمَـٰلُكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لَا تَشْعُرُونَ

Quran 49:2

My point is even if they were promised Jannah at that time, IT'S POSSIBLE it will disappear. Perhaps they WILL go to Jannah if their deeds exceed their sins, but it's not a sure thing. 

[Qadri_01]

21 minutes ago, 145_turbo_16V said:

I'm poking fun of your "logic" that that verse is unconditional. Sahaba made sacrifices and they will be rewarded. There should be no doubt about that at all. But they are also humans and the can deviate or NOT. It's up to them.

But each soul will also be judged. Nobody gets a free pass. What was rewarded today can be burnt tomorrow.

 

فَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ خَيْرًۭا يَرَهُۥ

وَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍۢ شَرًّۭا يَرَهُۥ

Quran 99:7-8

يَوْمَ تَجِدُ كُلُّ نَفْسٍۢ مَّا عَمِلَتْ مِنْ خَيْرٍۢ مُّحْضَرًۭا وَمَا عَمِلَتْ مِن سُوٓءٍۢ تَوَدُّ لَوْ أَنَّ بَيْنَهَا وَبَيْنَهُۥٓ أَمَدًۢا بَعِيدًۭا ۗ وَيُحَذِّرُكُمُ ٱللَّهُ نَفْسَهُۥ ۗ وَٱللَّهُ رَءُوفٌۢ بِٱلْعِبَادِ

Quran 3:30

57:10 doesn't negate all other verses. Everyone will face a day of accounting.

That's why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said in this verse your deeds CAN BE NULLIFIED (i.e. you got your Jannah just now, now it's gone, because of you!) ...just by raising your voice against Rasullullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

 يَـٰٓأَيُّهَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوا۟ لَا تَرْفَعُوٓا۟ أَصْوَٰتَكُمْ فَوْقَ صَوْتِ ٱلنَّبِىِّ وَلَا تَجْهَرُوا۟ لَهُۥ بِٱلْقَوْلِ كَجَهْرِ بَعْضِكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ أَن تَحْبَطَ أَعْمَـٰلُكُمْ وَأَنتُمْ لَا تَشْعُرُونَ

Quran 49:2

My point is even if they were promised Jannah at that time, IT'S POSSIBLE it will disappear. Perhaps they WILL go to Jannah if their deeds exceed their sins, but it's not a sure thing. 

Lol. If allah is saying so and so will go to jannah, and that man died being misguided then it will render that allah didn't knew that he will deviate. When allah promised all of them jannah, he knew what they will going to do. That is enough to debunk your long thread. Your arguments are weak as a spider's web, destroyed in a few seconds, no matter how large it is.

[145_turbo_16V]

Your "logic" is silly and has been debunked many times over. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said they sacrificed and they earned their rewards. Then why would Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) warn people to not raise their voice when it was some of the sahaba themselves who raised their voice? Their deeds which Allah rewarded them might become nullified.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) didn't say  "everyone's deed will be nullified except those who have been granted this favor or will be granted this favor, they are the exception ".

Your argument is silly and without logic. That means the sahaba have no free will and are now excluded from being humans. Some of the committed sins but that can all be disregarded.

LOL!!!!!

You should just give it up pal.

[Qadri_01]

"Ahlul bayt being purified in the verse of tatheer (which is shared by people of badr) and being taken to mubahila, is a proof that they are perfect infallible guide, who can't even forget or do ijtihadi mistakes, will never deviate, but companions being promised jannah, being called sadiqun and muflihun, true believers who were promised forgiveness, and noble provision, allah being pleased with them is only conditional. That doesn't mean they can't deviate from path."

Shia logic 101

[Qadri_01]

14 minutes ago, 145_turbo_16V said:

Your "logic" is silly and has been debunked many times over. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said they sacrificed and they earned their rewards. Then why would Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) warn people to not raise their voice when it was some of the sahaba themselves who raised their voice? Their deeds which Allah rewarded them might become nullified.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) didn't say  "everyone's deed will be nullified except those who have been granted this favor or will be granted this favor, they are the exception ".

Your argument is silly and without logic. That means the sahaba have no free will and are now excluded from being humans. Some of the committed sins but that can all be disregarded.

LOL!!!!!

You should just give it up pal.

They were threatened because allah wanted to discipline them. But he knew on what they would die upon. That's why he promised all of them jannah. 'Husna' in quran mean jannah. If prophet said so and so will go to jannah, and then he dies as a disbeliever, that would make our prophet's prophecy being false. The problem with you shia is that you lack basic common sense.

 

Edited March 28, 2024 by Qadri_01

[Qadri_01]

8 minutes ago, 145_turbo_16V said:

Your argument is silly and without logic. That means the sahaba have no free will and are now excluded from being humans. Some of the committed sins but that can all be disregarded.

Lol. You need to stop making nonsensical arguments. How does that interpretation means that sahabah have no free will. All that interpretation means that allah knew what they are going to do and what they will die upon.

[sunnism]

11 minutes ago, Qadri_01 said:

"Ahlul bayt being purified in the verse of tatheer (which is shared by people of badr) and being taken to mubahila, is a proof that they are perfect infallible guide, who can't even forget or do ijtihadi mistakes, will never deviate, but companions being promised jannah, being called sadiqun and muflihun, true believers who were promised forgiveness, and noble provision, allah being pleased with them is only conditional. That doesn't mean they can't deviate from path."

Shia logic 101

Lol. This was nice. 

[Abu Nur]

2 minutes ago, Qadri_01 said:

"Ahlul bayt being purified in the verse of tatheer (which is shared by people of badr) and being taken to mubahila, is a proof that they are perfect infallible guide, who can't even forget or do ijtihadi mistakes, will never deviate, but companions being promised jannah, being called sadiqun and muflihun, true believers who were promised forgiveness, and noble provision, allah being pleased with them is only conditional. That doesn't mean they can't deviate from path."

Shia logic 101

It is not about believers promised heaven and forgiveness, but that who is even believer after what they have demonstrated by their actions. Promised Purification makes 100% that such people can not deviate, but Companions is different because God have demonstrated two types of them, the one you demonstrated and others who deviated.

All those verses you quoted do only guarantee for sincere believers, but there were close companions that deviated after Prophet (saws), they are not those who Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) refers.