Justification for Matam

[AbdusSibtayn]

3 hours ago, علوي said:

I did not call anyone barbarians. I said that this practice creates a barbaric image to outsiders. I never criticised any individual. 

If those individuals are engaging in barbaric acts according to you, then what are they if not barbarians? If someone commits a sin then what is he if not a sinner?
I don't value outsiders' opinions over the opinion of my fellow Shi'a. They have a problem with everything we do. They have a problem, in fact, with 'aza itself because it proclaims to the world what their spiritual forefathers did to the Ahlul Bayt (ams), the real legatees of the Prophet (S) and the rightful custodians of Islam after him. If someone wants to stop doing things to appease them, then their demands are never going to end. Blood matam is not even the main grudge they hold against us- it is clearly something else, something deeply theological and doctrinal rooted in history which is irreconcilable.

3 hours ago, علوي said:

You're right: I am not a genius in fiqhi issues to any degree; that's why I follow Ayatollah al-Khamenei, who rules that tatbeer is haram. Whether it's due to a reason regarding the actual fiqh or purely to salvage the image of the religion of Islam, it's haram. If other maraje3 rule it as halal, I (personally) have no issue with them from a purely religious viewpoint. The issue (for me) is regarding the sanctity of the image of Islam. 

This is precisely why laymen like you and me, who are not qualified to even engage with the discussion in the first place, should not jump our guns and declare something haram when other marjas have called it permissible. Just as you have the right to practice and propagate the opinion of your marja, the others have it too. Why call something clear cut, indisputably haram where there is clearly an ikhtilaf on an issue? Also, I find it profoundly unpalatable to propose that those marjas who say that blood matam is halal have no concern for the image of Islam.

I am not very enthusiastic about tatbir/qama zani and don't do it myself and don't think very highly of the practice and I don't beleive it has any historical basis whatsoever but at the same time, I concede that the best I can do is to argue my case with the proponents of blood matam, instead of calling their way of mourning barbaric or haram., because like it or not, at the end of the day each individual is going to follow his own marja on azadari rituals. My opinion on tatbir/qama/zanjir is the same as that of my marja- I stay silent on the issue and do tawaqquf  because I believe that these sacred days of 'aza are better spent than beefing and squabbling with my own brothers in faith over peripheral matters. Rest assured that we have bigger fish to fry than an insignificant thing like tatbir which is not even practiced by 1-2% of the Shi'a. 

[AbdusSibtayn]

12 hours ago, Guest Stranger Danger said:

Salam

Honestly, I believe there is a contradiction in ahadith in this regard.  A lot of people because they wish to hold on to reliability of our hadiths, won't acknowledge contradictions at all in any regard with anything and always try to solve contradictions.  Tusi was one of few scholars to see that for almost every notion, hadiths had a contradiction.

The story of Yaqoub (a) and Yusuf (a) show the truth of which hadiths are true. The "except Hussain (a)" tries to make an exception and solution, but reality is grief for Imam Mahdi (a) remaining in Ghayba and people going to hell, and the sad fate Prophets (a) faced in the past with their people, and Quran over all, is all reasons to be intensely grief given.  

Lose your whole family to a tyrant, and be told you are not allowed to grieve? What kind of logic is that?  It's a recipe to make cold hearted society which Muslims largely are and materialistic destined to hell not caring for the oppressed.

Tears are the heart of Islam as Yaqoub (a) knowledge was immensely higher then others and as a result he was grieved and he only complained to God.

Also, Quran talks about hard hearts not understanding Islam, taking words out of their place in Quran, and over all being blind, it's for this reason Satan and his kahen forces fabricated hadiths that forbid grieving and crying.   Because a soft heart would easily see the truth in Quran, and Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) are together in this regard, the Quran proves Ahlulbayt (a) beyond doubt to a soft heart.

The real reason why matam and 'aza were 'forbidden', and hadiths 'forbidding' them were churned out of the propaganda factories of  Damascus and Baghdad, is to stop all mention of the tragedies of the Ahlul Bayt (ams) from reaching the masses, because if this information is allowed to reach them, it will cause a domino effect which will cause many things to be unraveled and many secrets to be exposed.

The thinking Muslim will certainly ask, 'What rot crept into the nascent ummah that just after 5 decades from the death of the Prophet (S), his family was massacred most shamelessly by those claiming to be his 'successors'? How did these guys become so powerful? Who brought them to power?' And these questions will have to be answered. Hence, forbid matam itself, and eschew all mention of the Ahlul Bayt (ams) and their persecution from the religious narrative.

It is not for nothing that a pillar figure in Sunnism like al-Ghazali says that it is haram to narrate the sufferings of Hussain (عليه السلام) because it will 'decrease love for the sahaba'. They wouldn't bomb and attack the 'aza processions if it was insignificant ritualism, passed down by unthinking Shi'a masses from generation to generation. This is the power of 'azadari. This is why they don't want us to mourn the Ahlul Bayt (ams).
 

Edited July 30, 2023 by AbdusSibtayn

[Guest Stranger Danger]

9 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

The real reason why matam and 'aza were 'forbidden', and hadiths 'forbidding' them were churned out of the propaganda factories of  Damascus and Baghdad, is to stop all mention of the tragedies of the Ahlul Bayt (ams) from reaching the masses, because if this information is allowed to reach them, it will cause a domino effect which will cause many things to be unraveled and many secrets to be exposed.

The thinking Muslim will certainly ask, 'What rot crept into the nascent ummah that just after 5 decades from the death of the Prophet (S), his family was massacred most shamelessly by those claiming to be his 'successors'? How did these guys become so powerful? Who brought them to power?' And these questions will have to be answered. Hence, forbid matam itself, and eschew all mention of the Ahlul Bayt (ams) and their persecution from the religious narrative.

It is not for nothing that a pillar figure in Sunnism like al-Ghazali says that it is haram to narrate the sufferings of Hussain (عليه السلام) because it will 'decrease love for the sahaba'. They wouldn't bomb and attack the 'aza processions if it was insignificant ritualism, passed down by unthinking Shi'a masses from generation to generation. This is the power of 'azadari. This is why they don't want us to mourn the Ahlul Bayt (ams).
 

Salam

I agree with what you are saying. I shouldn't have said the reason, but a reason among others.

 

[AbdusSibtayn]

4 hours ago, Guest Stranger Danger said:

Salam

I agree with what you are saying. I shouldn't have said the reason, but a reason among others.

 

Wassalam, 

No problem dear brother. There's nothing wrong or amiss with your post. I just added to it. 

[Abu Nur]

Where I live it is very painful to see how Sunnis celebrate The Day of Ashura with happiness as like Eid. Reflecting upon it, it makes me to value the accepted rituals of Ashura and how believers choose to express their grief for Prophet Muhammad (saws) and his family (عليه السلام) where majority of his family members were martyred. An Honorable actions to keep remember this grief, even if it is unpleasant by others.

[علوي]

19 hours ago, Cool said:

Salam Brother!

 Walaikom assalam

19 hours ago, Cool said:

What I have observed is that many of us start behaving like "marja force" when discussing these sort of subjects. And you are thinking that "matam cause a negative image" of us.

While this thinking itself cause a negative impact for Shias. You can just take the example of this site alone which was quite rich in couple of years ago, there were so many active members on this site. Now we see only 4-6 persons online at any point of time. 

What your anti matam comments are doing is that your own people are getting away from you. Your negative image appears on them and the negative image of this site as well. 

Which religion stops people from protesting against injustice? You think shi'ite prohibits against expressing your sadness or anger? 

 

لاَّ يُحِبُّ اللّهُ الْجَهْرَ بِالسُّوَءِ مِنَ الْقَوْلِ إِلاَّ مَن ظُلِمَ

4:148)

So the argument of causing "negative image" is such a ridiculous argument which oppositely gives negative image of the ones who present this argument before their fellow shias. This argument itself causing disunity among shias.

I don't think I follow. Are you saying that because I'm arguing with fellow shia, and thereby causing disunity, I'm the one creating the negative image? If so, that's not a strong argument; it doesn't address the issue. You yourself said that no religion prohibits protesting against injustice, which is what I'm trying to do. It is unjust to use our bodies in a way which Allah has not allowed for us. We have no ayah or hadeeth which allows ma2tam in the way it is performed today; that is, a scheduled, yearly event claiming to be from the sunnah of Rasoulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his family. We have ahadeeth showing some Imams striking themselves in a single moment of intense grief and emotion, but nothing even remotely close to the current tradition of ma2tam. 

20 hours ago, Cool said:

It is quite surprising for me that you are not criticizing any "type of matam" here but matam as a whole which includes chest beating.  So tell me the name of any single marja which prohibits the chest beating? 

Let people express their sadness, let people protest against the injustice done in Karbala. Otherwise feel free to raise any objection, people will not listen to you and continue to do whatever they are doing. In my country, your "negative image" argument is proved flop as more & more people have started doing tatbir and zanjeer zani every year. The ones who were impressed by the "islamic revolution" are now freely speak against the Iranian leadership and respected scholars, encouraging their children to do blood matam. 

So you have Grand Ayatullah Bashir Najafi vs Grand Ayatullah Khamenei, you have Grand Ayatullah Shirazi against Grand Ayatullah Nasir Mukaram etc. These grand ayatullahs are actually blaming the others for causing negative image of shi'ism. And while you may be happy with this fight between wali e faqeeh, it is a point of sadness for me. The ones (wali e faqeeh) who call themselves servants of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) are disputing with each other on the matter called azadari. That's shameful indeed!

I don't care much for the fights between the scholars. I'm criticising all forms of ma2tam other than those sanctioned by the Ahlulbayt. This means everything from the most extreme zanjeer to chest beating, which has been prohibited by maraje3 such as Sayyed Fadlallah (q). 

20 hours ago, Cool said:

why not you criticize the grand ayatullah who allows/approves such form of matam?

Frankly, because I don't have the authority to do so.

20 hours ago, Cool said:

And also let me know "blood donation" was performed by which Imam or by which companion of Ahlul Bayt? If you want to act only that which is done by Imams or any of their companions, who among them performed organ donation or organ transplant? 

This is never an issue for our reputation, and it was never criticised by Ahlulbayt. 

17 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

If those individuals are engaging in barbaric acts according to you, then what are they if not barbarians? If someone commits a sin then what is he if not a sinner?

Still, I didn't say the act is barbaric. I said it could be perceived that way.

17 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

I don't value outsiders' opinions over the opinion of my fellow Shi'a.

Neither do I, but everything needs to be in moderation. The Ahlulbayt taught us to keep their perfect reputation alive and... perfect. What right do we have to tarnish this reputation by insisting upon performing an act which they didn't perform and they didn't tell us to perform?

17 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

They have a problem, in fact, with 'aza itself because it proclaims to the world what their spiritual forefathers did to the Ahlul Bayt (ams), the real legatees of the Prophet (S) and the rightful custodians of Islam after him. If someone wants to stop doing things to appease them, then their demands are never going to end. Blood matam is not even the main grudge they hold against us- it is clearly something else, something deeply theological and doctrinal rooted in history which is irreconcilable.

This is assuming that they know everything about the events that took place from saqeefa until Karbala. Unfortunately, not all of them do. There is no shortage of sunnis visiting Karbala and participating in mourning for Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام). You don't see any of them doing ma2tam, though. 

17 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

This is precisely why laymen like you and me, who are not qualified to even engage with the discussion in the first place, should not jump our guns and declare something haram when other marjas have called it permissible. Just as you have the right to practice and propagate the opinion of your marja, the others have it too. Why call something clear cut, indisputably haram where there is clearly an ikhtilaf on an issue? Also, I find it profoundly unpalatable to propose that those marjas who say that blood matam is halal have no concern for the image of Islam.

I never said they don't have this concern. But they value these practices over safeguarding the reputation of the Ahlulbayt. Which is fine, since they've clearly done the research to come to such conclusion, but I'd tend to agree with the maraje3 of the other opinion. 

18 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

I am not very enthusiastic about tatbir/qama zani and don't do it myself and don't think very highly of the practice and I don't beleive it has any historical basis whatsoever but at the same time, I concede that the best I can do is to argue my case with the proponents of blood matam, instead of calling their way of mourning barbaric or haram., because like it or not, at the end of the day each individual is going to follow his own marja on azadari rituals. My opinion on tatbir/qama/zanjir is the same as that of my marja- I stay silent on the issue and do tawaqquf  because I believe that these sacred days of 'aza are better spent than beefing and squabbling with my own brothers in faith over peripheral matters. Rest assured that we have bigger fish to fry than an insignificant thing like tatbir which is not even practiced by 1-2% of the Shi'a. 

I mostly agree with you. Everyone will mourn for Imam al-Husayn in their own ways. But at the same time, it's an issue which many of our maraje3 have criticised for this reason. 

Ayatollah Khoei

Quote

“If blood matam and hitting oneself with chains, which are practiced in Muharram, cause serious harm, or harm or ridicule the religion and sect then it is impermissible.”

Ayatollah Khomeini

Quote

If such actions bring about disrepute to the religion then they are forbidden. At any rate it is reccomended that the participants refrain from such actions.”

Ayatollah al-Sistani

Quote

These rites must be done in such a way that in addition to serving that purpose, it draws the attention of others to these lofty goals. So those actions which are not understandable and cause misunderstandings and contempt for the religion must be avoided.

Ayatollah al-Khamenei

Quote

In addition to the fact that it is not held in the common view as manifestations of mourning and grief and it has no precedent at the lifetime of the Imams ((عليه السلام).) and even after that and we have not received any tradition quoted from the Infallibles ((عليه السلام).) about any support for this act, be it privately or publicly, this practice would, at the present time, give others a bad image of our school of thought. Therefore, there is no way that it can be considered permissible.

 

[علوي]

According to Kitab al-Irshad, on the night of Ashura, Sayyeda Zaynab (عليها السلام) struck her face on two occasions and both times Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام) told her to stop. 

Quote

" فلطمت أخته وجهها ونادت بالويل، فقال لها: " ليس لك الويل يا أخية، اسكتي رحمك الله...

...His sister struck at her face and cried out in grief.

"You have no (reason) to lament, sister," Husayn (عليه السلام) told her. "Be quiet, may Allah have mercy on you."

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1295_الإرشاد-الشيخ-المفيد-ج-٢/الصفحة_90#top

Quote

 لطمت وجهها وهوت إلى جيبها فشقته وخرت مغشيا عليها...

...she struck at her face. She bent down to (the hem of) her garment and (began to) tear it. Then she fell down in a faint.

" فقام إليها الحسين عليه السلام ... وقال لها: " يا أخية إني أقسمت فأبري قسمي، لا تشقي علي جيبا، ولا تخمشي علي وجها، ولا تدعي علي بالويل والثبور إذا أنا هلكت

Husayn (عليه السلام) got up...and he said: "Sister, I swear to you - and I (always) keep my oaths - that you must not tear your clothes, nor scratch your face, nor cry out with grief and loss when I am destroyed."

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1295_الإرشاد-الشيخ-المفيد-ج-٢/الصفحة_94#top

[ShiaMan14]

As far as what others and specifically sunni think about matam, we can tell them that UMM Aisha did matam at the demise of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

I mean if it's good enough for her...

[Cool]

3 hours ago, علوي said:

It is unjust to use our bodies in a way which Allah has not allowed for us.

Salam Brother!

What I have learned is that you are looking at the picture exactly the way the brothers of Prophet Yusuf (عليه السلام) looked, when they saw their father crying profusely for Prophet Yusuf (عليه السلام), they said to him:

قَالُوا تَاللَّهِ تَفْتَأُ تَذْكُرُ يُوسُفَ حَتَّىٰ تَكُونَ حَرَضًا أَوْ تَكُونَ مِنَ الْهَالِكِينَ 

12:85) They said: By Allah! you will not cease to remember Yusuf until you are a prey to constant disease or (until) you are of those who perish.

For them, their father's crying could make him a prey (of disease or death). 

This example of crying profusely to the extent that a Prophet of Allah lost his sight, is present in Quran and you are saying this:

3 hours ago, علوي said:

It is unjust to use our bodies in a way which Allah has not allowed for us

 

3 hours ago, علوي said:

We have no ayah or hadeeth which allows ma2tam in the way it is performed today;

I have already stated that azadari rituals evolved per time. Started with chest beating to tatbir & then zanjeer-zani. 

The word present in hadith i.e., الجزع is the point from where difference of opinion originates. 

One of the meaning of this word, according to dictionaries, is to lose patience in grief. 

الجزع في لغة العرب هو نقيض الصبر

Even though I hold the view that we should hold patience in any case as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is with the الصابرين، but I cannot challenge expressing الجزع for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) as there are multiple ahadith mentioning this:

(عن معاوية بن وهب، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: كلّ الجزع والبكاء مكروه، سوى الجزع والبكاء على الحسين (عليه السلام).

 (عن الحسن بن علي بن أبي حمزة، عن أبيه، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: سمعته يقول: إنّ البكاء والجزع مكروه للعبد في كلّ ما جزع ما خلا البكاء والجزع على الحسين بن علي (عليهما السلام) فإنّه فيه مأجور).

عن مسمع بن عبد الملك البصري قال: (قال لي أبو عبد الله (عليه السلام): يا مسمع أنت من أهل العراق؛ أما تأتي قبر الحسين (عليه السلام)؟.. .. قال لي أفما تذكر ما صنع به؟ قلت: نعم، قال: فتجزع؟ قلت: إي والله واستعبر لذلك حتى يرى أهلي أثر ذلك عليّ فأمتنع من الطعام حتى يستبين ذلك في وجهي. قال: رحم الله دمعتك أما إنّك من الذين يعدّون من أهل الجزع لنا.. ..)

عن مالك الجهني، عن أبي جعفر الباقر (عليه السلام) في مراسم يوم عاشوراء: (.. .. ثم ليندب الحسين عليه السلام ويبكيه ويأمر من في داره بالبكاء عليه، ويقيم في داره مصيبته بإظهار الجزع عليه .. ..)

You have every right to dislike any practice, you can even quit attending the majalis held during the Muharram. But you have no right to impose your opinion on others. You have no right to dictate others how should they express their love for the Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام. Let the fuqaha do their job, hold patience if any of our fuqaha approves such practices. In doing so, you can put your focus on greater interests like brother said:

21 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

we have bigger fish to fry than an insignificant thing like tatbir

Wassalam!

 

[AbdusSibtayn]

4 hours ago, علوي said:

Neither do I, but everything needs to be in moderation. The Ahlulbayt taught us to keep their perfect reputation alive and... perfect. What right do we have to tarnish this reputation by insisting upon performing an act which they didn't perform and they didn't tell us to perform?

But how does any of it make it impermissible? 

Of course even those marjas who allow tatbir say that it should not be done where it causes those harmful effects (this clause being the important qualifier), so this is a moot point. 

4 hours ago, علوي said:

This is assuming that they know everything about the events that took place from saqeefa until Karbala. Unfortunately, not all of them do. There is no shortage of sunnis visiting Karbala and participating in mourning for Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام). You don't see any of them doing ma2tam, though. 

What they know or don't know is irrelevant to the debate. They will ultimately listen to their scholars, who, as has been explained earlier, have every reason to forbid any mention of the ahlul bayt (ams) 's tragedies. The aversion to matam stems from an ulterior motive, and not from ignorance. The whole point behind azadari is to foil this evil design by highlighting what has been concealed for 1400 years. 

I think you are confusing matam with tatbir/blood latam. Many Sunnis participate in matam- sina zani, weeping, ta'ziya processions, but they don't do bloodletting. 

4 hours ago, علوي said:

But they value these practices over safeguarding the reputation of the Ahlulbayt.

Thanks for confirming my point. This is exactly what your contention seemed to imply- that they don't care about the 'reputation' of the Ahlul Bayt (ams). 

4 hours ago, علوي said:

Everyone will mourn for Imam al-Husayn in their own ways. But at the same time, it's an issue which many of our maraje3 have criticised for this reason. 

Which is why we cannot impose our personal understanding of right or wrong when there is clearly a difference of opinion on an issue, which in turn is sensitively bound to time - place context. A tatbir/zanjeer procession in Dubai/Doha/Kuwait city/Kabul will not have the same optics as one in Karbala, Isfahan or in Najaf. The two cases cannot be painted with the same broad brush. 

Wassalam. 

[علوي]

9 minutes ago, Cool said:

Salam Brother!

Walaikom assalam

9 minutes ago, Cool said:

What I have learned is that you are looking at the picture exactly the way the brothers of Prophet Yusuf (عليه السلام) looked, when they saw their father crying profusely for Prophet Yusuf (عليه السلام), they said to him:

قَالُوا تَاللَّهِ تَفْتَأُ تَذْكُرُ يُوسُفَ حَتَّىٰ تَكُونَ حَرَضًا أَوْ تَكُونَ مِنَ الْهَالِكِينَ 

12:85) They said: By Allah! you will not cease to remember Yusuf until you are a prey to constant disease or (until) you are of those who perish.

For them, their father's crying could make him a prey (of disease or death). 

This example of crying profusely to the extent that a Prophet of Allah lost his sight, is present in Quran and you are saying this:

3 hours ago, علوي said:

It is unjust to use our bodies in a way which Allah has not allowed for us

I never said anything negative about mourning in general. My issue is with organised ma2tam, which has no base in ahadeeth and tarnishes the reputation of the Ahlulbayt and image of our sect. 

10 minutes ago, Cool said:

3 hours ago, علوي said:

We have no ayah or hadeeth which allows ma2tam in the way it is performed today;

I have already stated that azadari rituals evolved per time. Started with chest beating to tatbir & then zanjeer-zani. 

The word present in hadith i.e., الجزع is the point from where difference of opinion originates. 

One of the meaning of this word, according to dictionaries, is to lose patience in grief. 

الجزع في لغة العرب هو نقيض الصبر

Even though I hold the view that we should hold patience in any case as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is with the الصابرين، but I cannot challenge expressing الجزع for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) as there are multiple ahadith mentioning this:

(عن معاوية بن وهب، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: كلّ الجزع والبكاء مكروه، سوى الجزع والبكاء على الحسين (عليه السلام).

 (عن الحسن بن علي بن أبي حمزة، عن أبيه، عن أبي عبد الله (عليه السلام) قال: سمعته يقول: إنّ البكاء والجزع مكروه للعبد في كلّ ما جزع ما خلا البكاء والجزع على الحسين بن علي (عليهما السلام) فإنّه فيه مأجور).

عن مسمع بن عبد الملك البصري قال: (قال لي أبو عبد الله (عليه السلام): يا مسمع أنت من أهل العراق؛ أما تأتي قبر الحسين (عليه السلام)؟.. .. قال لي أفما تذكر ما صنع به؟ قلت: نعم، قال: فتجزع؟ قلت: إي والله واستعبر لذلك حتى يرى أهلي أثر ذلك عليّ فأمتنع من الطعام حتى يستبين ذلك في وجهي. قال: رحم الله دمعتك أما إنّك من الذين يعدّون من أهل الجزع لنا.. ..)

عن مالك الجهني، عن أبي جعفر الباقر (عليه السلام) في مراسم يوم عاشوراء: (.. .. ثم ليندب الحسين عليه السلام ويبكيه ويأمر من في داره بالبكاء عليه، ويقيم في داره مصيبته بإظهار الجزع عليه .. ..)

You have every right to dislike any practice, you can even quit attending the majalis held during the Muharram. But you have no right to impose your opinion on others. You have no right to dictate others how should they express their love for the Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام. Let the fuqaha do their job, hold patience if any of our fuqaha approves such practices. In doing so, you can put your focus on greater interests like brother said:

21 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

we have bigger fish to fry than an insignificant thing like tatbir

Wassalam!

Usually I wouldn't make much noise about such subjects, but this is a harmful practice. Ayatollah al-Khamenei insists on this:

Quote

I know some might say, “It would have been rightful if he had not talked about tatbir.” They might say, “What would you have to do with Tatbir?”, “Some people practice it, let them do so!” No! One cannot stay silent towards such unlawful actions.
...
The more I thought about it (tatbir), the more I truly realized I cannot overlook my responsibility of informing our dear people on Tatbir, which is certainly an act of wrongdoing built upon heresy. Do not practice it, I do not approve. If someone does anything to display their desire to practice Tatbir, I will be deeply disappointed in them. I am declaring this solemnly. This is certainly an unlawful action, one which Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) would not be pleased with, as practiced today.
...
Like I said, some people will say—certainly out of compassion--that it would have been better if I had not talked about Tatbir. No, I must speak out on it. I must address it. I have a responsibility greater than others and certainly others should talk about it too.

https://english.khamenei.ir/news/4209/Tatbir-is-a-wrongful-and-fabricated-tradition-Imam-Khamenei

[AbdusSibtayn]

4 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Where I live it is very painful to see how Sunnis celebrate The Day of Ashura with happiness as like Eid. Reflecting upon it, it makes me to value the accepted rituals of Ashura and how believers choose to express their grief for Prophet Muhammad (saws) and his family (عليه السلام) where majority of his family members were martyred. An Honorable actions to keep remember this grief, even if it is unpleasant by others.

Some of their kings and scholars in the past, like Salah as Din Ayyubi, even ordered the celebration of Ashura as 'Eid al-Dhafar ' or 'The festival of victory'. 

Edited July 31, 2023 by AbdusSibtayn

[علوي]

2 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

But how does any of it make it impermissible? 

Of course even those marjas who allow tatbir say that it should not be done where it causes those harmful effects (this clause being the important qualifier), so this is a moot point.

To my knowledge, perhaps in a world where ma2tam was a very normal thing, it would be fine. But in the situation as it is, it cannot be excused.

8 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

What they know or don't know is irrelevant to the debate. They will ultimately listen to their scholars, who, as has been explained earlier, have every reason to forbid any mention of the ahlul bayt (ams) 's tragedies. The aversion to matam stems from an ulterior motive, and not from ignorance. The whole point behind azadari is to foil this evil design by highlighting what has been concealed for 1400 years.

Even so, ma2tam doesn't help with this. Spreading knowledge through lectures does, but not ma2tam, in any way, shape or form. Sunnis who may be leaning towards our sect due to researching more about history or being taught more about it may turn away when they see us beating ourselves up.

11 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

I think you are confusing matam with tatbir/blood latam. Many Sunnis participate in matam- sina zani, weeping, ta'ziya processions, but they don't do bloodletting. 

By 'ma2tam', I'm referring to 'sina zani', not the weeping or processions. If some Sunnis do participate in sina zani, it's not my concern; they're the exception.

13 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Thanks for confirming my point. This is exactly what your contention seemed to imply- that they don't care about the 'reputation' of the Ahlul Bayt (ams).

Sorry for not being clear. I'm sure they 'care' about the reputation of the Ahlulbayt (a), but they should value it more than defending these textually and logically baseless traditions.

15 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Which is why we cannot impose our personal understanding of right or wrong when there is clearly a difference of opinion on an issue, which in turn is sensitively bound to time - place context. A tatbir/zanjeer procession in Dubai/Doha/Kuwait city/Kabul will not have the same optics as one in Karbala, Isfahan or in Najaf.

Well, not to the immediate onlookers, but in the age of media, everyone is bound to see it. The creation (or, now, continuation) of the negative image caused by ma2tam and tatbeer cannot be avoided. 

[Cool]

32 minutes ago, علوي said:

My issue is with organised ma2tam

Salam Brother!

From majalis to matam, everything in azadari is "organized", we organize these events every year. A Noha-Khwan recites the Noha and people do matam. A zakir recites the masa'ib of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام and people cry. 

36 minutes ago, علوي said:

which has no base in ahadeeth and tarnishes the reputation of the Ahlulbayt and image of our sect

Brother! You have to establish & prove that tatbir or zanjeer-zani can tarnish the "reputation of Ahlul Bayt" while you are saying that they didn't ordered any of these acts. 

Not reciting the obligatory prayers by any believer could tarnish the "reputation of Ahlul Bayt"? Or could tarnish the image of Islam? 

Doing zina by any believer could tarnish the reputation of Ahlul Bayt or the religion Islam? 

I think it is difficult for you to prove this claim as 95% or even greater percentage of Shia don't practice tatbir & zanjeer-zani either.

46 minutes ago, علوي said:

Usually I wouldn't make much noise about such subjects, but this is a harmful practice. Ayatollah al-Khamenei insists on this:

I have a deep respect of him in my heart, I have deep respect of every scholar of Iran specially Ayatullah Khomeini a.r. 

I know his opinion and the opinion of majority of most reputable & senior scholars. I have even seen the latest video statement of Ayatullah Nasir Mukaram in which he was requesting the mo'mineen to not practice tatbir & zanjeer-zani. 

Apart from that, I even know the cases where people got infected with hepatitis B, C & HIV viruses while practicing the zanjeer-zani and tatbir. 

Everyone is responsible for his action and answerable to his actions. I have no idea what is the level of the sincerity & love of those who are bleeding themselves in the name of Hussain (عليه السلام) and what could be the status of their sincerity and love in the eyes of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and the Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام، so I am at peace with them. I don't like these actions personally but I am ignorant of what is in their hearts. If they are doing sin, may Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgive them, if whatever they are doing deserve reward, may Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) increase their reward. 

56 minutes ago, علوي said:

No! One cannot stay silent towards such unlawful actions.

The words in bold are what I have pointed out as "difference of opinion". These acts are unlawful according to Ayatullah Khamenei (رضي الله عنه) but not unlawful in the sight of Ayatullah Bashir Najafi (رضي الله عنه). 

What is valuable for me is that scholars are unanimous on their verdict that "if these actions causing harm to the cause of karbala, or message of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), it is not permissible to practice them". 

Now everyone is responsible to evaluate, at individual level, whether he is serving the purpose & message of karbala. Some times it becomes necessary for someone to express his emotions, sometimes he prefer to hold patience. Our every action is raised to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), for His pleasure, actions should be done. 

I think this sums up the discussions brother , may Almighty Lord shower His blessings on you and grant you peace, increase your towfeqaat.

Wassalam!

[AbdusSibtayn]

10 hours ago, علوي said:

To my knowledge, perhaps in a world where ma2tam was a very normal thing, it would be fine. But in the situation as it is, it cannot be excused.

Hitting oneself out of grief IS normal in every culture of the world, from urban and sophisticated to tribal and simple. So this objection is baseless. 

10 hours ago, علوي said:

Even so, ma2tam doesn't help with this. Spreading knowledge through lectures does, but not ma2tam, in any way, shape or form. Sunnis who may be leaning towards our sect due to researching more about history or being taught more about it may turn away when they see us beating ourselves up.

Not sure where you are getting this from, but matam has a huge role in initiating people into Tashayyu, the world over. Azadari was the first point of contact between many people and Karbala. Myself included. The optics and amplification that matam provides would never be provided by any lecture. This is why Sayyida Zainab (sa) laid the foundation of this noble tradition. 

And I am a revert from Sunnism (Hanbali-Athari) to Twelver Shi'ism myself, whose first point of contact with the sufferings of Ahlul Bayt (ams) and the subsequent awareness of their ma'arifah was azadari and matam. So is the case for many of my fellow Sunni-turned-Shi'a, so the charge that matam repels potential converts is baseless. The one who makes this argument has surely never met a convert from Sunnism in real life. 

10 hours ago, علوي said:

By 'ma2tam', I'm referring to 'sina zani', not the weeping or processions. If some Sunnis do participate in sina zani, it's not my concern; they're the exception

Again, no Shi'i scholar, nor a person of sound mind in possession of his sanity, has ever objected to the concept of hitting oneself out of grief, and it is not only perfectly licit in the eyes of the Shariah but ingrained in both modern and premodern cultures. Only a nasibi will object to the practice, for obvious reasons. There is literally videographic evidence of sinazani happening in front of the rahbar so I don't know how you got the notion that it is forbidden. 

https://en.mehrnews.com/news/203975/VIDEO-Performing-eulogy-in-presence-of-Leader

Many prominent mujtahids are in the same assembly, participating in chest beating, and nobody seems to buy your contention that it sullies the image of either Shi'ism or muharram. So unless you are making up your own fatawa, I don't see how this baseless claim helps your case either. 

10 hours ago, علوي said:

but they should value it more than defending these textually and logically baseless traditions.

 

 

10 hours ago, علوي said:

Sorry for not being clear. I'm sure they 'care' about the reputation of the Ahlulbayt (a), but they should value it more than defending these textually and logically baseless traditions.

Kindly rid yourself of the notion that your camp is the sole custodian of the Ahlul Bayt's reputation. These maraja who allow blood matam have more love, concern and regard for the heritage of the Thaqalayn in their toenails than people like you and I have in our entire beings, so let's not preach to the choir. As per these scholars and their following these acts have a sound textual and rational basis, so constructing a straightjacket and tooting it as the solely substantial viewpoint also fails. 

11 hours ago, علوي said:

Well, not to the immediate onlookers, but in the age of media, everyone is bound to see it. The creation (or, now, continuation) of the negative image caused by ma2tam and tatbeer cannot be avoided. 

Again, it is your opinion that the sole perception of these acts is a negative one. The opinion is as divided among the onlookers, immediate or distant, as it is among the doers. There are reverts from non Muslim and Sunni backgrounds who do tatbir who are personally known to me, so you are again constructing a straightjacket where one doesn't exist. 

This is going to be my last post on the topic so wassalam. I'll just leave with these parting words- let not the blind hatred of tatbiri brethren, and political campism propel someone to hate and wholesale rejected the Hussaini rituals themselves. 

[علوي]

 

Is Tatbir a Good Thing To Introduce Shia Islam? - Farsi Sub English

http://www.shiatv.net/video/399251175

[علوي]

16 hours ago, Cool said:

Salam Brother!

  Walaikom assalam

16 hours ago, Cool said:

I think this sums up the discussions brother , may Almighty Lord shower His blessings on you and grant you peace, increase your towfeqaat.

Wassalam!

6 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

This is going to be my last post on the topic so wassalam. I'll just leave with these parting words- let not the blind hatred of tatbiri brethren, and political campism propel someone to hate and wholesale rejected the Hussaini rituals themselves. 

I had written a response to both posts, but when I came to the end I thought it'd just be better to finish the discussion here. I commend people for their sincerity towards the Ahlulbayt, but I will not cease having an issue with the act. Anyhow, may Allah increase our reward for the tragedy of Husayn (عليه السلام).

[AbdusSibtayn]

Quote

Brother, I need a reference for this. This is a huge information if true.

Wa alaikas salam, 

You can find the citation in this article by Sheikh Hadavi Tehrani brother. 

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa21274

Also Aleppo/Halab in Syria was majority Imami/Twelver under the Buyids and Mirdasids until the Ayyubids took over and forcibly uprooted Shi'ism. The details can be found in Bughyat al-Talib fi Akhbaar Halab by Umar ibn Ahmad. The citations vary according to edition and publication, so I am unable to give it exactly here but I suppose there should be a digitized version available on Alfeker. net or archive.org.

Interestingly enough, his eldest son, al-Afdal, became  Shi'a. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) does have a wry sense of humour. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

14 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Again, it is your opinion that the sole perception of these acts is a negative one. The opinion is as divided among the onlookers, immediate or distant, as it is among the doers. There are reverts from non Muslim and Sunni backgrounds who do tatbir who are personally known to me, so you are again constructing a straightjacket where one doesn't exist. 

Salam perhaps new reverts have done it due to following their mentors which doing Tatbir is very common in Indian subcontinent without concerning about creating bad image of Shia Islam which most of bloody & bizarre videos about Matam are related to Afghanistan ,Pakistan & India although it has been highly reduced near to zero in Iraq  which in simialr fashion highly reduced in Afghanistan in recent years   although "maraja who allow blood matam" resides in Iraq which people in these countries look at Tatbir as obligatory ritual as part of their tradition which a successful example of spreading shia Islam between new reverts is Nigerai which although majority of reverts are from sunni background so then spreading Shia Islam has been happened without Tatbir which also reverts in Nigeria have demanded from other Shia to stop it for protecting them & further spreading of Shia Islam in African continent .

Mr. Raefipoor interview with a Nigerian Shia Muslim - YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpRCJmtCwqM

https://www.aparat.com/v/IRKrG

Quote

In the name of GOD the beneficent the merciful ◈
Mr. Raefipoor interview with a Nigerian Shia Muslim about Shia Muslims of Nigeria, Sheykh Zakzaky and asking him about Knifing (or Tatbeer) which is banned by most of Shia Muslim Scholars.

with English Subtitle
If you can't see the subtitle, enable Captions (click on CC)

Watch on YouTube: https://youtu.be/YpRCJmtCwqM
Watch on Aparat: http://www.aparat.com/v/g6T5f

You can download available SRT subtitle files here :
http://twelveimam.rasek

 

Interview About Tatbir With One Nigerian Shia , English Subtitle

 

 

[Cool]

Question :

What is your opinion on Tatbeer knowing that it has been used by the non-Muslims as a way of attacking and insulting the Muslims?

Answer :

The abuse and slander against Shias will not stop even if they stopped performing Tatbeer, as it was continuing for centuries against them because of their commemoration of the tragedy of Ashura. The reason behind this is obvious: because it places the role of the Muslim caliphate into question since the authorities killed the grandson of the Prophet, Imam Hussien (peace be upon him), in such a terrible way only fifty years after the death of the founder of the religion, the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him and his holy progeny).
The act of Tatbeer is not a general practice of the Shias on the day of Ashura since those who perform it is limited in number with respect to the population of Shias that commemorate the tragedy every year. From that, one can conclude that the slander against the Shia is not simply due to them performing Tatbeer.

https://www.alhakeem.com/en/questions/724