Justification for Matam

[Ali Mazhar]

I hope this message finds you well. I wanted to bring up a topic that has been bothering me for some time now, and I hope we can have an open and respectful discussion about it. I've noticed the practice of matam (mourning rituals) in Shia culture, particularly during Muharram, and I must admit that I find myself in disagreement with this tradition.

I've seen people engaging in matam, and I can't help but wonder about its justification in our faith. I understand that it holds significant cultural and historical importance for many, but I can't help but question its relevance and the purpose it serves in our spiritual lives.

From an outsider's perspective, the act of matam seem extreme and even harmful. I struggle to comprehend how these practices align with the teachings of Islam, which promotes compassion, self-discipline, and empathy.

I sincerely want to understand this practice better and hear from those who believe in its significance. Could you please explain the reasons behind matam including the more extreme forms such as zanjir? How does it relate to our beliefs and traditions? Is there any room for reinterpreting these rituals in a more spiritually uplifting manner that doesn't involve physical harm?

I don't mean to offend anyone or undermine the deeply held beliefs of our community. I'm genuinely seeking enlightenment and hoping for a respectful conversation.

Thank you for your understanding and insights.

[Cool]

Salam!

Matam itself is a symbol and an expression of grief & protest as well. It started with beating head, chest & cheeks and then taken different forms afterwards. 

From a fiqhi point of view, our scholars have difference of opinion only on its extreme forms which are zajeerzani or qamazani (tatbir). It should be noted that in our fiqh, scholars are unanimously declare suicide as haram act and any form of matam which causes damage to the great message & cause of the sacrifice of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) in Karbala is also declared as haram. 

We have authentic ahadith in our books which says:

محمد بن الحسن الطوسي في الأمالي عن أبيه، عن المفيد، عن ابن قولويه، عن أبيه، عن سعد، عن أحمد بن محمد، عن الحسن بن محبوب، عن أبي محمد الأنصاري، عن معاوية بن وهب، عن أبي عبد الله (ع) في حديث قال:
كل الجزع والبكاء مكروه إلا الجزع والبكاء لقتل الحسين (ع).

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1420_الفصول-المهمة-في-أصول-الأئمة-الحر-العاملي-ج-٣/الصفحة_411

The difference of opinion among our scholars originates from their understanding of word الجزع which can mean extreme expression of grief. 

This word الجزع also appeared in another hadith:

وعن محمد بن عبد الله بن جعفر الحميري، عن أبيه، عن علي بن محمد بن سالم، عن محمد بن خالد، عن عبد الله بن حماد، عن الأصم، عن مسمع بن عبد الملك قال: قال لي أبو عبد الله عليه السلام (في حديث:) أما تذكر ما صنع به يعني بالحسين عليه السلام قلت: بلى، قال: أتجزع؟ قلت: أي والله، وأستعبر بذلك حتى يرى أهلي أثر ذلك علي، فامتنع من الطعام حتى يستبين ذلك في وجهي، فقال: رحم الله دمعتك أما إنك من الذين يعدون من أهل الجزع لنا، والذين يفرحون لفرحنا، ويحزنون لحزننا، أما إنك سترى عند موتك حضور آبائي لك، ووصيتهم ملك الموت بك وما يلقونك به من البشارة أفضل، ولملك الموت ارق عليك وأشد رحمة لك من الام الشفيقة على ولدها (إلى أن قال:) ما بكى أحد رحمة لنا ولما لقينا إلا رحمه الله قبل أن تخرج الدمعة من عينه، فإذا سال دموعه على خده، فلو أن قطرة من دموعه سقطت في جهنم لأطفت حرها حتى لا يوجد لها حر، وذكر حديثا طويلا يتضمن ثوابا جزيلا، يقول فيه: وما من عين بكت لنا إلا نعمت بالنظر إلى الكوثر، وسقيت منه مع من أحبنا.

http://www.shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1226_وسائل-الشيعة-الإسلامية-الحر-العاملي-ج-١٠/الصفحة_397#top

In the above hadith, you can see the answer to question أتجزع؟, the answer mentions the expression of الجزع to the extent that his family see its أثار on his face:

حتى يرى أهلي أثر ذلك علي، فامتنع من الطعام حتى يستبين ذلك في وجهي،

And الجزع is not limited to crying, it also includes something else as well i.e., abstaining from food to the extent that its effects starts appearing on the face. Even if someone cry, the effects of his crying should appears to his face to the extent that other can see him crying. 

So I can understand why there is a difference of opinion about it in our scholars. Best for you is to either do the research yourself and adopt the way which looks correct to you or you can follow the instructions of your Marja'a e Taqlid. 

Remember that matam (of any sort) is not obligatory on every shia. What our scholars tells us is only that whether that specific form of matam is allowed or not. Like Ayatullah Bashir Najafi a.r allows both tatbir & zanjirzani but many of his followers do not practice these form of matam. 

I hope this response would suffice.

Wassalam!!

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Cool

[ShiaMan14]

On 7/23/2023 at 5:43 PM, Ali Mazhar said:

 

From an outsider's perspective, the act of matam seem extreme and even harmful. I struggle to comprehend how these practices align with the teachings of Islam, which promotes compassion, self-discipline, and empathy.

 

salaam,

i can assure that no outsider (non-muslim) has ever burned the Quran because Shias do matam so you should take their perspective with a pinch of salt. 

 

On 7/23/2023 at 5:43 PM, Ali Mazhar said:

I hope this message finds you well. I wanted to bring up a topic that has been bothering me for some time now, and I hope we can have an open and respectful discussion about it. I've noticed the practice of matam (mourning rituals) in Shia culture, particularly during Muharram, and I must admit that I find myself in disagreement with this tradition.

I've seen people engaging in matam, and I can't help but wonder about its justification in our faith. I understand that it holds significant cultural and historical importance for many, but I can't help but question its relevance and the purpose it serves in our spiritual lives.

 

I sincerely want to understand this practice better and hear from those who believe in its significance. Could you please explain the reasons behind matam including the more extreme forms such as zanjir? How does it relate to our beliefs and traditions? Is there any room for reinterpreting these rituals in a more spiritually uplifting manner that doesn't involve physical harm?

I don't mean to offend anyone or undermine the deeply held beliefs of our community. I'm genuinely seeking enlightenment and hoping for a respectful conversation.

Thank you for your understanding and insights.

There are many different styles of matam. Those who have been to Karbala on Arbaeen will attest to the fact that for 2-3 days there is a constant procession of people from different cultures and countries that walk from the Encampment of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) thru the Shrines of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) and Hz Abbas (عليه السلام). What is amazing to see if that each group does matam in their own unique ways. Anything from  simply holding hands by the chest to beating heads, beating chests perhaps even gently bouncing while doing matam. 

The practice of matam even goes back to the times of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). It is simply a way to express grief.

Here is a link that might explain better than me:

https://www.al-islam.org/media/why-do-we-beat-our-chest-imam-husayn

[Haji 2003]

On 7/24/2023 at 8:27 AM, Cool said:

And الجزع is not limited to crying, it also includes something else as well i.e., abstaining from food to the extent that its effects starts appearing on the face. Even if someone cry, the effects of his crying should appears to his face to the extent that other can see him crying. 

Surah Yusuf Ayat 84 refers to Prophet Yacoub being blinded by grief ... would that be relevant here?

[Cool]

2 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

would that be relevant here?

Salam!

That is a very important example in our understanding of philosophy of البكاء (crying). 

According to a hadith, Imam (عليه السلام) mentioned the crying of five persons:

 البكاؤون خمسة: آدم، ويعقوب، ويوسف، وفاطمة، وعلي بن الحسين

https://lib.eshia.ir/15033/1/204/البكاءون

Crying infact does not negate patience. And there is a great reward in complaining  of our grief & sorrow to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Those who don't understand the philosophy of crying should note that crying for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) is our way of expressing our grief & sorrow and this expression is always directed towards Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (إلى الله):

إنما أشكو بثي وحزني إلى الله

And the evidence of this is our statement:

" يا ليتني كنت معهم فأفوز فوزا عظيما "

Crying for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) out of his love and with this wishing for the فوز عظيم connects our emotions & their expression to خشية الله. 

According to few more ahadith:

وما يدخل النار من بكى من خشية الله

البكاء من خشية الله يطفئ بحاراً من غضب الله

And perhaps these are among the reasons why Imams عليهم السلام have mentioned that crying for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) causes the forgiveness of sins.  

ألا وصلّى الله على الباكين على الحسين رحمة وشفقة ، واللاعنين لأعدائهم والممتلئين عليهم غيظاً وحنقاً

Wassalam!!

[Cool]

On 7/25/2023 at 8:43 PM, Cool said:

Crying for Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) out of his love and with this wishing for the فوز عظيم connects our emotions & their expression to خشية الله. 

I need to elaborate one point here. 

There could be two possible sources of خشية الله.  One is love (hubb) and other is knowledge (معرفة). 

Interestingly knowledge (معرفة) itself originates both love and fear

So this could be a philosophical debate whether fear can originate from love? Or that can love even exist without the fear?

I think this deserve a separate thread which I will make after Ashura.

Wassalam!!

[AbdusSibtayn]

https://shiapen.com/sub-category/azadari-mourning-for-imam-hussain-as

A comprehensive, point by point rebuttal of the regular anti-matam/azadari arguments. 

[Haji 2003]

16 hours ago, Cool said:

That is a very important example in our understanding of philosophy of البكاء (crying). 

Thanks. I found this to be very interesting:

Quote

The whiteness of his eyes in this verse clearly refers to his eyes glistening with tears momentarily.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/12/st25.htm

which seems to downplay the grief and in so doing leaves unexplained the later ayat which talks about how the blindness was cured by Prophet Yusuf's ((عليه السلام).) clothing.

The commentator who wrote this, served as a doctor in the Saudi Air Force ...

[Cool]

17 hours ago, Cool said:

Crying infact does not negate patience.

 

3 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

comprehensive, point by point rebuttal of the regular anti-matam/azadari arguments. 

Salam!

I have picked up following verse from that article (Is Azadari against patience (sabr)?):

Shakir 12:86] He said: I only complain of my grief and sorrow to Allah, and I know from Allah what you do not know.

The statement in bold, is mentioning the relationship between sabr & khabar. I remember a verse of chapter 18 where Khizr (عليه السلام) said to Musa (عليه السلام):

و كيف تصبر على ما لم تحط به خبرا

18:68) And how can you have patience in that of which you have not got a comprehensive knowledge?

So clearly, Prophet Ya'qoob (عليه السلام) declaring his knowledge and yet he wept for his lost son so much that he lost his sight. 

57 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

which seems to downplay the grief and in so doing leaves unexplained the later ayat which talks about how the blindness was cured by Prophet Yusuf's ((عليه السلام).) clothing.

Well, he cannot downplay his grief as his grief is mentioned in more than one verse:

وَتَوَلَّىٰ عَنْهُمْ وَقَالَ يَا أَسَفَىٰ عَلَىٰ يُوسُفَ وَابْيَضَّتْ عَيْنَاهُ مِنَ الْحُزْنِ فَهُوَ كَظِيمٌ

12:84) And he turned away from them, and said: O my sorrow for Yusuf! and his eyes became white on account of the grief, and he was a repressor (of grief).

قَالَ إِنَّمَا أَشْكُو بَثِّي وَحُزْنِي إِلَى اللَّهِ وَأَعْلَمُ مِنَ اللَّهِ مَا لَا تَعْلَمُونَ

12:86) He said: I only complain of my grief and sorrow to Allah, and I know from Allah what you do not know.

[علوي]

Tatbir is a wrongful and fabricated tradition: Imam Khamenei

Quote

Tatbir [Qame Zani] is also a fabricated tradition. It is among issues that do not belong to the Islamic religion and undoubtedly God is not pleased with such a practice.
...
The more I thought about it (tatbir), the more I truly realized I cannot overlook my responsibility of informing our dear people on Tatbir, which is certainly an act of wrongdoing built upon heresy.
...
Tatbir is one of those concerns which not only lacks logical reasoning, but is also the nearest of things to superstition.

https://english.khamenei.ir/news/4209/Tatbir-is-a-wrongful-and-fabricated-tradition-Imam-Khamenei

No Imam ever sanctioned the practice of tatbeer. Although we have ahadeeth showing that some of the Imams may have hit themselves during moments of intense emotion, there is no proof whatsoever that there was any organised tatbeer. By that, I mean a group of people in a gathering (rhythmically) hitting themselves as a tradition/practice. No hadeeth even implies that an Imam participated in such a practice.

On 7/26/2023 at 10:45 AM, AbdusSibtayn said:

https://shiapen.com/sub-category/azadari-mourning-for-imam-hussain-as

A comprehensive, point by point rebuttal of the regular anti-matam/azadari arguments. 

Allow me to criticise ideas, not people. 

This is ridiculous. Since when do singular, unique incidents of intense, uncontrollable emotion become sunnah? The massive hole in the argument is screaming at us: how does the Prophet hitting himself in a single moment of grief sanction mass gatherings and ma2tam as it is practiced today (which, like it or not, does make us look like barbarians)?

Perhaps if we were living 1500 years ago when worshipping rocks and burying infants was normal, this practice would not be seen negatively and we could practice it. (This is, mind you, assuming that the Ahlulbayt did in fact perform organised tatbeer). But in 2023, publicly beating your face and screaming in groups doesn't exactly make our religion look attractive. 

I defy anyone to bring a hadeeth in which an Imam or the Prophet performed organised tatbeer. Otherwise, don't expect me to "let people mourn in their own ways" while simultaneously creating for us the disgusting image of barbaric, backward, twisted traditions.

[AbdusSibtayn]

3 hours ago, علوي said:

Tatbir is a wrongful and fabricated tradition: Imam Khamenei

https://english.khamenei.ir/news/4209/Tatbir-is-a-wrongful-and-fabricated-tradition-Imam-Khamenei

No Imam ever sanctioned the practice of tatbeer. Although we have ahadeeth showing that some of the Imams may have hit themselves during moments of intense emotion, there is no proof whatsoever that there was any organised tatbeer. By that, I mean a group of people in a gathering (rhythmically) hitting themselves as a tradition/practice. No hadeeth even implies that an Imam participated in such a practice.

Allow me to criticise ideas, not people. 

This is ridiculous. Since when do singular, unique incidents of intense, uncontrollable emotion become sunnah? The massive hole in the argument is screaming at us: how does the Prophet hitting himself in a single moment of grief sanction mass gatherings and ma2tam as it is practiced today (which, like it or not, does make us look like barbarians)?

Perhaps if we were living 1500 years ago when worshipping rocks and burying infants was normal, this practice would not be seen negatively and we could practice it. (This is, mind you, assuming that the Ahlulbayt did in fact perform organised tatbeer). But in 2023, publicly beating your face and screaming in groups doesn't exactly make our religion look attractive. 

I defy anyone to bring a hadeeth in which an Imam or the Prophet performed organised tatbeer. Otherwise, don't expect me to "let people mourn in their own ways" while simultaneously creating for us the disgusting image of barbaric, backward, twisted traditions.

Not very big on Tatbir myself, but I am not going to call my mu'min brothers who do tatbir 'barbarians' like the nawasib do, in these days of mourning. I take strong objection to this distasteful verbiage. There are highest ranking maraja who have allowed the act and will be more than welcome to respond to all your questions. Statistically the number of marjas who allow tatbir is more than those who forbid it. Sheikh Khurasani (ha) in Qum, Sayyid Modarresi (ha) in Karbala, and Sheikh Bashir Najafi (ha) in Najaf are quite accessible. Please go tell them that they are barbarians promoting barbarism. They will happily respond to you.
Also quite rich that you are asking for textual evidence when you don't even know how to define sunnah, are manifestly ignorant of the basics of usul al-fiqh, such as the asl of bara'ah and the asl of 'la-darar wa la-dirar fi Islam', and are nowhere near the level of istidlal yourself.

Never thought I'll have to defend tatbir but your comment is divisive, needlessly provocative, and in extremely poor taste.
Please halt this malafide and divisive nonsense in these days at least.

[Satar]

Yo someone help me out

I came across this Hadith from Bukhari 
the Prophet (ﷺ) said, "He who slaps his cheeks, tears his clothes and follows the ways and traditions of the Days of Ignorance is not one of us."  
Does this mean we are wrong for hitting ourselves in Muharram???

Also are we (Shias) allowed to read and accept Hadith’s of the sunnis? If not why? What if the Hadith is authentic?

Are there any Shia imams/scholars/sheikhs that believe Matam (slapping our chest) is haram?

[Abu Nur]

4 hours ago, Satar said:

Yo someone help me out

 

I came across this Hadith from Bukhari 
the Prophet (ﷺ) said, "He who slaps his cheeks, tears his clothes and follows the ways and traditions of the Days of Ignorance is not one of us."  
Does this mean we are wrong for hitting ourselves in Muharram???

Also are we (Shias) allowed to read and accept Hadith’s of the sunnis? If not why? What if the Hadith is authentic?

Are there any Shia imams/scholars/sheikhs that believe Matam (slapping our chest) is haram?

No, this hadith is not meant for crying for Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have chosen them and venerate them. This narration has to do with losing hope for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and being unpleasant of the degree of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Here is the Sunni explenation of the hadith:

Therefore, the Prophet (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) said that whoever is displeased with the decree of Allah is not following his praiseworthy way and his sought-after Sunnah. Rather, he has swerved from the right path toward the path of those who show impatience and dismay when a calamity befalls them, because of their strong attachment to this worldly life. So, they do not seek the reward and pleasure of their Lord by being patient in the face of calamity. The Prophet (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) disassociates himself form those whose faith is too weak to bear the shock of the calamity that befalls them until they reach the point of feeling discontent with it in their hearts and showing it in their words by wailing and lamenting the dead, or in their actions by tearing the front openings of their garments and slapping their faces, thereby reviving the customs of the pre-Islamic period of ignorance.

Edited July 28, 2023 by Abu Nur

[Satar]

4 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

No, this hadith is not meant for crying for Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have chosen them and venerate them. This narration has to do with losing hope for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and being unpleasant of the degree of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Here is the Sunni explenation of the hadith:

Therefore, the Prophet (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) said that whoever is displeased with the decree of Allah is not following his praiseworthy way and his sought-after Sunnah. Rather, he has swerved from the right path toward the path of those who show impatience and dismay when a calamity befalls them, because of their strong attachment to this worldly life. So, they do not seek the reward and pleasure of their Lord by being patient in the face of calamity. The Prophet (may Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) disassociates himself form those whose faith is too weak to bear the shock of the calamity that befalls them until they reach the point of feeling discontent with it in their hearts and showing it in their words by wailing and lamenting the dead, or in their actions by tearing the front openings of their garments and slapping their faces, thereby reviving the customs of the pre-Islamic period of ignorance.

Thanks for helping out.

is there any Hadith or any proof that suggests we should slap out chest.

[AbdusSibtayn]

1 hour ago, Satar said:

Thanks for helping out.

is there any Hadith or any proof that suggests we should slap out chest.

 

https://shiapen.com/blog/chapter-nine-hitting-one-s-body-in-grief

You have a link further up rebutting all the anti-azadari propaganda. Besides, everything we do need not be validated by the opponents. 

[Hameedeh]

4 hours ago, Satar said:

is there any Hadith or any proof that suggests we should slap out chest.

 

On 7/26/2023 at 10:45 AM, AbdusSibtayn said:

https://shiapen.com/sub-category/azadari-mourning-for-imam-hussain-as

 

3 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

https://shiapen.com/blog/chapter-nine-hitting-one-s-body-in-grief

A member replied to your question. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

23 hours ago, Satar said:

Yo someone help me out

 

I came across this Hadith from Bukhari 
the Prophet (ﷺ) said, "He who slaps his cheeks, tears his clothes and follows the ways and traditions of the Days of Ignorance is not one of us."  
Does this mean we are wrong for hitting ourselves in Muharram???

Also are we (Shias) allowed to read and accept Hadith’s of the sunnis? If not why? What if the Hadith is authentic?

Are there any Shia imams/scholars/sheikhs that believe Matam (slapping our chest) is haram?

Salam

I have found some hadiths about prohibation of slapping cheeks however teraing cloths has not been forbidden .

Ahmad and other historians have recounted on authentic chains of transmission. They have recounted that ‘A’ishah said, “… The soul of the Prophet of Allah (S) was taken […], then I put his head on a pillow and the other women and I arose and started hitting ourselves. I was hitting my face…”

Regarding the chain of transmission of this tradition, Muhammad Salim Asad says, “This chain of transmission is correct and authentic.” (It must be mentioned, that the Shi‘ahs do not consent to the truth of all parts of this tradition, but that argument is reserved for another place and time. The current argument is in regard to the acceptability of hitting oneself to show grief.)16

1. Jabir ibn ‘Abd Allah Ansari says, I asked Imam al-Baqir (عليه السلام) about grief [jaza‘]. He (عليه السلام) said,

«أشدُّ الجزعِ الصراخُ بالويلِ، ولطمُ الوجهُ والصدرِ وجزُّ الشعرِ من النواصيَ، ومن أقامَ النواحةَ فقد ترك الصبرَ، واخذ في غيرِ طريقةٍ.»

“The most intense grief is wailing while saying “woe”, slapping the face [and chest] and pulling the front hair out. Anyone who mourns and expresses grief has certainly lost his patience and is on the path of impatience.”25

It has been narrated that when the women and children of the Hashemite family moved from Syria to Medina; In the middle of the way, they asked the caravan guide to take them to Karbala, to meet again with the martyrs of Karbala. When they reached that land, they saw that Jaber bin Abdullah Ansari and a group of Bani Hashim had come to Karbala to visit the grave of Hussein (peace be upon him). When these two caravans met each other, their meeting was accompanied by sadness, crying and beating their heads and faces, and in this way, they set up a passionate mourning in that land. (1)
Although, as far as we have searched, there is no mention in the hadiths about chest beating on turmails of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them). However, the interpretation of "harm"«لطم» (in some narrations, including the above narration) apparently also includes chest-beating. (2)

Foot note (1)

پی نوشت: (1). «...فَوَجَدُوا جابِرَ بْنَ عَبْدِاللهِ الاَْنصارِی وَ جَماعَةً مِنْ بَنِی هاشِمَ وَ رَجُلا مِنْ آلِ رَسُولُ اللهِ؛ قَدْ وَرَدُوا لِزِیارَةِ قَبْرِ الْحُسَیْنِ(علیه السلام)، فَوافَوْا فِی وَقْت واحِد، وَ تَلاقَوْا بِالْبُکاءِ وَ الْحُزْنِ وَ اللَّطْمِ، وَ أَقامُوا الْمَأْتَمَ الْمُقْرِحَةَ لِلاکبادِ» (بحارالانوار، ج 45، ص 146)

Bihar al-anwar , v45 , p 146

(2)

(2). Compiled from the book: "Ashura Roots, Motivations, Events, Consequences", Saeed Davoudi and Mehdi Rostamnejad, (under the supervision of Grand Ayatollah Nasser Makarem Shirazi), Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib (peace be upon him) publications. Qom, 1388 solar AH. , p. 84.

 

After the martyrdom of Imam Musa al-Kazim (‘a), Imam al-Ridha ('a) came to Umm Ahmad and asked her for the trust. Umm Ahmad asked him: "Was your father martyred?"

He answered, "Yes. I am returning from his funeral just now. So, give me the trust my father left with you when he left for Baghdad, because I am his successor and I am the true Imam for all Jinn and people."

Is there any reason for the permissibility of chest beating and self

Umm Ahmad rent [rended] her collar (in grief), then she turned the trust over to him and swore her allegiance to him as the new Imam.5

Upon hearing this, Umm Ahmad screamed and slapped her face and tore her collar saying: By Allah my master (Imam Kadhim) has passed away!

Being the proof of interpretation and confirmation of Masoum

Although in this narration, the person who scolded and slapped the face and tore the neck was not the Imam (peace be upon him), but the point to be pondered is that considering that this was done in the presence of the Infallible Imam (peace be upon him), he did not forbid it. And he did not stop him from doing this, such silence, interpretation and confirmation [4]
It is considered infallible's confirmation, which is a proof for others.

At the end, we express the opinion of a number of authorities on this matter.

Office of Hazrat Ayatollah Ayatollah Khamenei:

It is not permissible to harm during mourning if it causes significant damage to the body and causes humiliation of the religion or the believers or the mourning ceremony of the infallibles (peace be upon them). specially Aba Abdullah Al-Hussein (peace be upon him).

https://wikiporsesh.ir/سینه_زنی    (source https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa12865)

https://www.al-islam.org/shiah-women-transmitters-hadith-nahla-gharavi-naeeni/12-umm-ahmad-ibn-musa-al-kazim

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa12865/tmpl/component/printme/1

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa12865

 

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5. Ibn ‘Abbas narrates about the Holy Prophet’s (S) divorce from some of his wives, ‘Umar said, “I went to see Hafsah at her house. I noticed that she was standing and hitting herself, and the other wives of the Holy Prophet (S) were standing and hitting themselves.” I asked Hafsah, “Has the Prophet of Allah granted you a divorce?”18

Examination of the reasoning of opponents

Those who oppose beating the chest in intense grief for Allah’s awliya’ have resorted to a number of hadiths recorded by different Islamic sects and schools of thought:

Hadith recounted by Sunni Muslims

Bukhari quotes from ‘Abd Allah that the Holy Prophet (S) said,

«ليس منّا من لطمَ الخدودَ وشقَّ الجيوبَ ودعا بدعوی الجاهليةِ.»

“A man who slaps his face, rends his collar and promotes the legacy of the Age of Ignorance (before the advent and rise of Islam) is not from us.”21

Some have made use of this hadith to prohibit beating the chest and mourning for the awliya’ of Allah, including the Doyen of Martyrs, Aba ‘Abd Allah al-Husayn (عليه السلام).

Response

This hadith views the act of beating the chest as an objection to Allah’s decree and mourning as a means of protesting against one’s destiny when a beloved one dies. This is the view which most of the commentators of the book of hadith of Sahih Bukhari have adopted; among them ‘Asqalani, Mulla ‘Ali Qari, Kirmani and Qastalani.22

Kirmani writes, “If a person says that rending one’s collars and hitting one’s face will not cause man to be banished from this ummah (Islamic community), what therefore is the meaning of such a prohibition?” In response, we say that this prohibition is a result of intensity and severity. If the statement regarding the Age of Ignorance is interpreted to mean disbelief [kufr], like making lawful what is unlawful [haram] or the lack of submission to and acceptance of divine decree, then the prohibition is correct.23

Manawi adds a footnote to this hadith saying, “The above interpretation denotes lack of contentment, and assumes a lack of satisfaction with devine decree.”24

In conclusion, this hadith is not proof against beating the chest on the day of ‘Ashura while mourning over the sufferings of Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام) and the other awliya’ of Allah, because in this case beating the chest is a deed which is meant to show homage and paying tribute. It is done to show reverence to the religion and as a manifestation of love for the Ahl al-Bayt.

This sorrow and grief is in no way a display of discontentment with Allah’s decree. Such grief, in fact, is in one aspect exhibition of intense sorrow over the failure of Muslims to support Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام) in his struggle to keep alive Allah’s law and decree.

B. The traditions of the Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام)

There are some traditions in Shi‘ah sources of hadith which appear to prohibit beating the chest and mourning.

1. Jabir ibn ‘Abd Allah Ansari says, I asked Imam al-Baqir (عليه السلام) about grief [jaza‘]. He (عليه السلام) said,

«أشدُّ الجزعِ الصراخُ بالويلِ، ولطمُ الوجهُ والصدرِ وجزُّ الشعرِ من النواصيَ، ومن أقامَ النواحةَ فقد ترك الصبرَ، واخذ في غيرِ طريقةٍ.»

“The most intense grief is wailing while saying “woe”, slapping the face and pulling the front hair out. Anyone who mourns and expresses grief has certainly lost his patience and is on the path of impatience.”25

2. It has been recounted that Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said,

«نهی رسول الله صَلَّی اللهُ عَلَيهِ وَآله عن الرنة عند المصيبة، ونهی عن النياحةِ والاستماعِ اليها.»

“The Prophet of Allah forbade crying loudly when one is afflicted with a misfortune. He also forbade mourning or listening to it.”26
 

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3. ‘Amru ibn Abi Miqdam narrates that I heard Imam al-Baqir (عليه السلام) commenting on the Qur’anic verse, “And will not disobey you in what is good.”27 He said,

«إذا أنا متُّ فلا تخمشي عليَّ وجهاً، ولا تُرخي عليَّ شعراً، ولا تنادي بالويل، ولا تقيمَنَّ على نائحةٍ.»

“The Prophet of Allah (S) told his daughter, Fatimah (عليه السلام), ‘When I die, do not scratch your face, dishevel your hair nor mourn or cry loudly’.”28

Response

Firstly, this type of hadiths does not prohibit the holding of mourning ceremonies. On the contrary, they intend to restrain or prohibit any action that is not compatible with submission to divine decree and the will of Allah because some people lose their control when a beloved one dies or when they are afflicted with calamity.

They complain and grumble in protest, and question Allah’s decree. However, when holding mourning ceremonies involves the recounting of the virtues and good deeds of the deceased through elegies and mournful poems, there is no problem with this.

Secondly, the traditions which apparently prohibit mourning and the reading of mournful poems are related to instances that do not have positive practical effects. However, mourning for the awliya’ of Allah is reasonable and rational. We have previously shown that mourning for Allah’s awliya’ (عليه السلام) is reasonable under stated general rationales.

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It has also been shown that mourning for Allah’s awliya’ was the conduct of the Prophet of Allah (S), the pure and chaste Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام) and the Prophet’s companions. Even the generation which came after the Noble Prophet and Muslims throughout the entire history of Islam have been holding mourning ceremonies for the awliya’ of Allah, especially for the sufferings of Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام).

We have also shown that such ceremonies have practical positive results for Muslim individuals and society.

Thirdly, in some hadiths, it has been explicitly stated that holding mourning ceremonies is permissible and that it is even quite desirable and preferable to grieve and express sorrow over the sufferings of Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام).

1. A hadith has been recounted that Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said,

«کلُّ الجزعِ والبکاءِ مکروهٌ سوی الجزعَ والبکاءَ على الحسينِ عليه السّلام.»

“Every kind of despondency and crying is disapproved [makruh], except grieving and crying for Imam al-Husayn (S).”29

2. Imam al-Rida (عليه السلام) told his son,

«... إنّ يومَ الحسينِ عليه السّلام اقرحَ جفونَنا واسبلَ دموعَنا واذلَّ عزيزَنا بأرضِ کربٍ وبلا واورثَنا الکربَ والبلاءَ الى يومِ الانقضاءِ...»

“… Verily, the day of al-Husayn (the day of ‘Ashura) has lacerated eyes and made them swollen. It has caused our tears to flow because our beloved one has been exposed to abjectness in the land of Karbala. He has left for us to inherit sorrow and afflication for as long as we are to live in this world…”30

3. Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) told ‘Abd Allah ibn Hammad, “News has reached me that a group of people around the area of Kufah and other places and also a group of women gather on the 15^th of Sha‘ban near the holy shrine of al-Husayn ibn ‘Ali and mourn the loss of al-Husayn (عليه السلام). They recite the Holy Qur’an, and some among them recount the story of ‘Ashura and the events that came to pass while the rest of them weep and wail.”

Hammad told the Imam (عليه السلام), “I witnessed these mourning ceremonies myself.” Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said, “Praise be to Allah that He has made some men inclined and affectionate towards us (the Ahl al-Bayt), so that they may praise and extol us. They mourn for us and rebuke our enemies, and in this way clearly expose the ugly and unacceptable deeds of those who oppose us.”31

4. Ibn Quluyah quotes Masma‘ Kardin recounting that Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) asked him, “Do you commemorate the events of Karbala?” I answered, “Yes, I do.” He asked, “Do you grieve and express sorrow?” I said, “Yes, I swear upon Allah that I cry!” The Imam (عليه السلام) said, “May Allah accept your crying and reward you for it. Be aware that you are one of those people who express sorrow for our sake, and show joy for our joy.”32

 

https://www.al-islam.org/uprising-ashura-and-responses-doubts-ali-asghar-ridwani/psychology-mourning

 

Prohibition in the Quran

Hurting any part of the body through hitting it, or uncontrollable wailing during a tragedy are practices of the Era of Ignorance (Jahiliyya); both the Qur'an and the Prophet nullified these acts. Imam Sadiq said: "When the Messenger of God conquered Makkah, the people of Makkah preceded by their men came to pay allegiance to him. At this time this verse was revealed:

O Prophet! If faithful women come to you, to take the oath of allegiance to you, (pledging) that they shall not ascribe any partners to Allah, that they shall not steal, nor commit adultery, nor kill their children, nor utter any slander that they may have intentionally fabricated, nor disobey you in what is right, then accept their allegiance, and plead for them to Allah for forgiveness. Indeed Allah is all-forgiving, all-merciful.4

At this point Umm Hakeem, the daughter of Hareth ibn Hasham who was also the wife of 'Akrame the son of Abi Jahl, asked, "O Prophet of God, in regards to which act has God commanded us not to disobey you? The Prophet replied:

Never slap your cheeks, or scratch your faces, or pull your hair, or tear your collar, or blacken your clothes or wail!'

It was with these conditions that the Prophet accepted their allegiance.5 Imam Baqir said: "Do you know the meaning of this phrase when God said, 'Nor disobey you in what is right'?" I told him I didn't know. So he said that the Messenger of God said to Fatimah:6

When I die, do not scratch your cheeks over me, do not pull your hair, do not wail, and do not sit to lament over me. Then Abu Ja'fer, Imam Baqir said, 'This is the right which God the Almighty has commanded to.'7

Therefore, Islam forbids the hitting and slapping of one's cheeks or scratching one's face during a tragedy as the Prophet taught since he would clarify ambiguous concepts.8

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-15-no-3-autumn-2014/safeguarding-azadari-against-wrong-practices-mustafa-0

[Ashvazdanghe]

18 hours ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

https://shiapen.com/blog/chapter-nine-hitting-one-s-body-in-grief

You have a link further up rebutting all the anti-azadari propaganda. Besides, everything we do need not be validated by the opponents. 

Salam for addendum

Islamic Teachings

Weeping During Tragic Times

https://shiastudies.com/en/1673/weeping-during-tragic-times/

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 7/26/2023 at 10:08 PM, Haji 2003 said:

Quote

The whiteness of his eyes in this verse clearly refers to his eyes glistening with tears momentarily.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/12/st25.htm

which seems to downplay the grief and in so doing leaves unexplained the later ayat which talks about how the blindness was cured by Prophet Yusuf's ((عليه السلام).) clothing.

The commentator who wrote this, served as a doctor in the Saudi Air Force ...

Crying from the Viewpoint of the Holy Qur’an and Traditions

https://www.al-islam.org/uprising-ashura-and-responses-doubts-ali-asghar-ridwani/crying-viewpoint-holy-quran-and-traditions

[Ashvazdanghe]

Quote

It has been narrated that when the women and children of the Hashemite family moved from Syria to Medina; In the middle of the way, they asked the caravan guide to take them to Karbala, to meet again with the martyrs of Karbala. When they reached that land, they saw that Jaber bin Abdullah Ansari and a group of Bani Hashim had come to Karbala to visit the grave of Hussein (peace be upon him). When these two caravans met each other, their meeting was accompanied by sadness, crying and beating their heads and faces, and in this way, they set up a passionate mourning in that land. (1)
Although, as far as we have searched, there is no mention in the hadiths about chest beating on turmails of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them). However, the interpretation of "harm"«لطم» (in some narrations, including the above narration) apparently also includes chest-beating. (2)

Foot note (1)

پی نوشت: (1). «...فَوَجَدُوا جابِرَ بْنَ عَبْدِاللهِ الاَْنصارِی وَ جَماعَةً مِنْ بَنِی هاشِمَ وَ رَجُلا مِنْ آلِ رَسُولُ اللهِ؛ قَدْ وَرَدُوا لِزِیارَةِ قَبْرِ الْحُسَیْنِ(علیه السلام)، فَوافَوْا فِی وَقْت واحِد، وَ تَلاقَوْا بِالْبُکاءِ وَ الْحُزْنِ وَ اللَّطْمِ، وَ أَقامُوا الْمَأْتَمَ الْمُقْرِحَةَ لِلاکبادِ» (بحارالانوار، ج 45، ص 146)

Bihar al-anwar , v45 , p 146

(2)

(2). Compiled from the book: "Ashura Roots, Motivations, Events, Consequences", Saeed Davoudi and Mehdi Rostamnejad, (under the supervision of Grand Ayatollah Nasser Makarem Shirazi), Imam Ali Ibn Abi Talib (peace be upon him) publications. Qom, 1388 solar AH. , p. 84.

https://makarem.ir/main.aspx?lid=0&mid=246474&typeinfo=25&catid=23265

[Ashvazdanghe]

Normal chest beating
Q1. Is chest beating considered as an example of mourning in the mourning ceremony of the martyrs? And to what extent is it permissible?
A. If it is in a conventional manner and in a way that is considered as one of the manifestations of grief and sorrow in mourning, from a traditional point of view,
There is no problem.
Q2. Is it permissible to perform mourning ceremonies for scholars and martyrs?
A. There is nothing wrong with it.
Unconventional chest beating
 

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Q3. chest beating according to new styles such as ballet dance
[1]
What is the ruling that has become common in some regions today?
A. Any kind of mourning that in the present time causes  humilation and weakening of religion [2] and gives an excuse to the enemy is not permissible.

Q4. What is the ruling on holding chest beating tightly and in such a way that the face and body become red and bruised?
A. As long as there is no noticeable damage, there is no problem. But it should not be in a way that causes humilation and weakening of religion
5. In some regions, instead of beating people's chests and chains, two small stones are held in their hands with the sound of lamentation and the sound of drums and instruments.
They ask each other, what is the verdict of this type of mourning?
A: It is better for the believers to respect the mourning of the infallible "Alaihim al-Salaam" of Sayyed and Salar of the martyrs.
Aba Abdallah Al-Hussein remember "peace be upon him" and it is necessary to mourn the martyrs more and more passionately.
It will be done in a traditional way with enlightening and knowledge topics.
Getting naked on a chest beating
6. What is the ruling on getting naked in the mourning and chest-beating mourning that is held in mosques and Hussainias? If a film is taken from the mourning, it is a bad possibility
If it is harmful, what is the ruling on the issue?
A. If there is an indecent sight or there is a fear of corruption, in this case, you should not be naked while beat the chest
Q7. Is getting naked in mourning considered as a weakening religion?
A. It is appropriate to wear mourning clothes.

Q8. What is the ruling on chest beating in a sharp and fast manner (shur) that is sometimes accompanied by dance-like movements and intense body movements (jumping up and down)?
Page 2/42
A. It is proper for the believers to refrain from any work that is not suitable for the mourning ceremonies of Hazrat Syedal Shahada (peace be upon him).
, they should refrain from doing the mentioned actions if it doesn't cause weakening mourning ceremony, there is no problem.
Q9. Is it permissible to say the name of Ahl al-Bayt (peace be upon them) loudly and behind the back of the head at the time of chest beating regarded a kind of disrespect to Ahl al-Bayt Alaihim As-Salam?
A. There is nothing wrong with it, but it should not be in such a way that Urf is considered disrespectful and identifying the subject.
It's on behalsf of imitator.
Q10. If a person chest beats in a mourning ceremony in such a way that he faints, is this type of mourning and chest beating permissible?
A. There is nothing wrong with it. Unless he chooses and intentionally does something that causes considerable damage to the body.

[1]. in this style instead of chest beating ,They raise a foot and their hands over their heads so then by beating  their hands to each other , they move their body  so then after walking in lenghth of a foot both stand in front of each other
While bringing them down to the front of their stomachs, they beat them again. This movement is repeated during the term of mourning and those who perform this movement rotate in a circle in the scene.
[2]
ﻭﻫﻦ this religion or Madhab means the way of presenting religion and religion in the general view causes humilation and weakening religion. Therefore, if a permissible or desirable act is done in a way that causes the pessimism of the society and people of other religions towards religion  is forbidden and should be avoided

https://www.leader.ir/fa/book/154/احکام-عزاداری-و-مداحی

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 7/28/2023 at 8:32 AM, AbdusSibtayn said:

Sheikh Khurasani (ha) in Qum,

Salam if you mean Sheikh Wahid Khurasani , he clearly has prohibited Tatbir & cursing revered sunni figures although site of his office has propgated opposite of his speechs .

It was about two (currently five ) years ago that a film was released by the grand Marja of the Shia world, Ayatollah Grand Ayatollah Wahid Khorasani, in which he said, contrary to the opinion of his office, that public cursing is not permissible! After that, there were reports of his opinion regarding the sanctity of Tatbir. After verifying these reports and due to the opposition of the office of this Marja Taqlid to interviewing and filming him, we were forced to have an exclusive interview with Ayatollah Faqih Imani - the representative of Marja Taqlid  in Isfahan - regarding the ruling of not allowing Tatbir  by the great Marja Taqlid , Wahid Khorasani, Sistani and Naini has been done and let's remove another veil of censorship on the original opinion of the Marjas.

 

According to Rajanews, quoting Fetan.ir, however, the office of this honorable Marja refuses to publish such materials, and in the advertisements, however, the opinion of this great Marja on cursing and Tabir have been declared positive.

 

In the past, his office has published the news of the meeting of the leaders of the regime with Ayatollah Wahid, his advice for the unity of names in the sidelines of lessons, a phone call to inquire about the condition of Ayatollah Mahdavi Kani, the meeting of his representative and his son with the leader of the revolution, prohibition of cursing the caliphs in the middle of  Kharij lessons and other cases... (see Fetan archive) has refused that these which these censorships, that too from the office of a Shiite Marja  , are surprising.

https://nedayeesfahan.ir/62069/آشنایی-با-پایگاه-خبری-تحلیلی-فتن-دانلو.htm

The text and an excerpt from the video of Fetan's interview with the Maraj of Taqlid  in Isfahan about the Tatbir:

  The reference of Ayatollah Wahid Khorasani's office regarding the permissibility of Tatbir  is that Ayatollah Naini has ruled that Tatbir is permissible, and Ayatollah Wahid also considers Tatbir by following his ruling. What is your opinion about this?

Ayatollah Faqih Imani: First of all, I would like to say that Ayatollah Naini was a very distinguished person and a high official, and even he was at that time when the enemies wanted to set the mourning tables and there wouldn't be no trace of the religion and name of Imam Hussain, peace be upon him, and for In order to achieve this goal, they set up meetings in which women would show off so that the youth would be interested in these types of meetings and ignore religious meetings.

 

The late Naini said that in order to prevent these religious values from disappearing, there is nothing wrong with Tatbir for a few periods in order to change the prevailing atmosphere at that time. Ayatollah Wahid also has had the same opinion as Ayatollah Naini. Therefore, if you go and sit knee to knee of His majesty so then ask is Tatbir permissible, He will say no. Because the situation is different.

 

Does that mean you personally confirm that Ayatollah Wahid has declared Tatbir haram?

Ayatollah Faqih Imani: Yes. Because at this time when the enemies of Islam are looking for an excuse to ruin the image of Shiism in the world, we must be careful to avoid doing things that destroy the image of Shiism. Ayatollah Wahid is one of the people who are very bound to preserve the character and reputation of Islam. Again, I say that you should sit knee to knee  with him and see how his majesty denies Tatbir. I myself sent my representative to Ayatollah Wahid and he told my representative that Tatbir is forbidden in the current situation. His office may give you more or less of answers!

 

The claimants of the license of Tatbir say that Ayatollah Sistani also issued a decree regarding the permission of it. Your Excellency, as a representative of Taqlid authorities in Isfahan, express your opinion.

Ayatollah Faqih Imani: Ayatollah Sistani also declared Tatbir as haram, and what he says about the permissibility of Tatbir is not true.

 

How was Ayatollah Sistani's opinion about the sanctity of Tatbir proven to your Highness?

Ayatollah Faqih Imani: I The servant , my brother's son,is  his son-in-law. I sent my brother's son to him and he said like Ayatollah Wahid that Tatbir is forbidden.

 

Excerpt from the movie of interview with Ayatollah Faqih Imani:https://www.rajanews.com/news/277246/نظر-آیت-الله-وحیدخراسانی-و-آیت-الله-سیستانی-در-مورد-قمه-زنی-چیست؟-آیت‌الله-فقیه‌ایمانی

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 7/28/2023 at 12:02 AM, AbdusSibtayn said:

Sheikh Bashir Najafi (ha) in Najaf are quite accessible

Salam he only has allowed it by preserving some preconditions .

Ayatollah Bashir Hussain Najafi

Question:
“Is it permissable to do qama and zanjeer zani hitting yourself with sword and knives?”

Answer:
“Bismahe Subhana

It is permitted unless Mawla Imam Hussain’s (عليه السلام) and the Ahl-ul-Bayt’s persecution are considered as propaganda or if he is not allowed by his doctor because it might result in death or losing of a body part. Matam-qama or matam-zanjeer should not be done if he is settled in a part of the world where people due to their ignorance or lack of knowledge about Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) after watching such matam are turned away from Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). Therefore it should be avoided in front of such people.[14]

http://ijtihadnet.com/shia-scholars-fatwas-on-tatbir/

 

 

 

https://english.khamenei.ir/news/4209/Tatbir-is-a-wrongful-and-fabricated-tradition-Imam-Khamenei

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 7/28/2023 at 8:32 AM, AbdusSibtayn said:

Statistically the number of marjas who allow tatbir is more than those who forbid it. Sheikh Khurasani (ha) in Qum, Sayyid Modarresi (ha) in Karbala, and Sheikh Bashir Najafi (ha) in Najaf are quite accessible.

Statistically number of opponents of Tatbir between  revered Marjas more than advicates of it which advocates of it has allowed it based on some preconditions  which number of opponents of it about 18 revered Marja against respected three Marjas .

Quote

چون ممکن هست تصور شود قمه زنی در سالهای اخیر حرام شده؛ تحقیق ذیل که توسط فاضل ارجمند (حضرت حجةالإسلام و المسلمین مهدی مسائلی) انجام پذیرفته است برای روشن گری افراد با بصیرت ارائه میشود که معلوم شود در گذشته بسیاری از عالمان و فقیهان فرهیخته با این عمل مخالفت نموده اند و در مقابل آن ایستادگی کرده اند.

برخی از فقیهان بزرگ که فتوا به حرمت قمه زنی داده اند:

Because it is possible to think that Tatbir  has become haram in recent years; The following research, which was carried out by Fazel Arjamand (Hazrat Hajjat al-Islam wa al-Muslimeen Mahdi Masaeli), is presented for the enlightenment of people with insight, as it turns out that in the past, many learned scholars and jurists opposed this practice and stood against it.
Some of the great jurists who have given fatwa against Tatbir (since 1230-1312 AH by grand  Ayatollah Mirza Shirazi (رضي الله عنه) until now

https://portal.anhar.ir/node/13816/?ref=sbttl#gsc.tab=0

 

[Cool]

21 hours ago, Satar said:

is there any Hadith or any proof that suggests we should slap out chest

Is there any hadith which suggest that we should go on roads with Alams, Zuljenah, Ta'ziyah? 

Is there any hadith which suggest the design of Alam, its length, width & height? 

Is there any hadith which suggest the donation of body organs or which suggests their transplant? 

Brother, you must understand how our Fuqaha deduct the rulings from the ahadith & from the verses of Quran. There is a general rule is:

كل شيء لك حلال حتى تعرف انه حرام

(Everything is permissible for you until you know that it is forbidden)

الوسائل الباب 4 من أبواب ما يكتسب به الحديث (4

كل شيء مطلق حتى يرد فيه نهي

(Everything is permissible until it is forbidden)

I am not going into details now. Just giving you a reference from the book of Ahlul Sunnah which mentions that Ummul Mo'mineen Aisha slapped here face & chest:

It has been narrated by Imam Ahmed ibn Hanbal in his masnad:

25816 - ‏حدثنا : ‏ ‏يعقوب ‏، ‏قال : حدثنا : ‏ ‏أبي ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏ابن اسحاق ،‏ ‏قال : حدثني : ‏ ‏يحيى بن عباد بن عبد الله ابن الزبير ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏عباد ،‏ ‏قال : سمعت ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏تقول ‏: ‏مات رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏بين ‏ ‏سحري ‏ ‏ونحري ‏، ‏وفي ‏ ‏دولتي ‏ ‏لم أظلم فيه أحدا فمن ‏ ‏سفهي ‏ ‏وحداثة سني ‏ ‏أن رسول الله ‏ ‏قبض ‏ ‏وهو في حجري ، ثم وضعت رأسه على وسادة ، وقمت ‏ ‏التدم ‏ ‏مع النساء وأضرب وجهي.

 Sayyida ‘Aisha said, “The Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him and give him peace) passed away leaning against my chest. I did not wrong anyone regarding him. It was from my weakness and the youth of my age that the Messenger of Allah was taken whilst in my lap, then I placed his head on a pillow and stood hitting myself along with the women and hitting my face.”

This is a sahih hadith according to Ahlul Sunnah. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 7/28/2023 at 8:32 AM, AbdusSibtayn said:

t. Sheikh Khurasani (ha) in Qum,

Addendum

According to shortned specch of Ayatollah Khorasani

http://wahidkhorasani.com/فارسی/اخبار/محتوا/292_آنچه-مردم-در-عزاداری-سیدالشهدا-علیه-السلام-انجام-دهند-همه-تفریط-است-در-عزاداری-او-افراط-معنا-ندارد

Acquaint people with the greatness of Ashura. Introduce Sayyid al-Shaheda (peace be upon him) to the people as it is in the statement of the Messenger of Allah, so that some common people do not say: This is excessive mourning. What people do in mourning for him is all excess. This mourning has not extreme. Faqih is Mirza Naini. He is the one that the jurists pay close attention to word by word in his treatise "Suspicious Dress"" لباس مشکوک", as someone whose fatwa is clear is that "if chains and razors are used on the chest in mourning for Hussain bin Ali and blood comes out, there is no problem. The greatness of the calamity is so بکی علیه ما یری وما لا یری cry on what you see and what you don't see   then hiiting with chains of me and turning my body black, where does reaches to  dust of this calamity  O Allah! Give us knowledge through the pure blood of that Imam.

See the detailed statements of His majesty in the link below

http://wahidkhorasani.com/فارسی/صوتی-و-تصویری/محتوا/270_آنچه-مردم-در-عزاداری-سیدالشهدا-علیه-السلام-انجام-دهند-همه-تفریط-است-در-عزاداری-او-افراط-معنا-ندار

Grand Ayatollah Wahid Khorasani: In order to preserve Hosseini's rites, it is necessary to prevent the introduction of innovations  and wrongdoings in the name of mourning (it should be noted that he not only does not consider it permissible, but also says that it should be prevented) and also says: "The subject, the ruling is obligatory It is the observance of Hossein's rituals. These wrongdoings are innovation. »

Quote

حضرت آیت الله العظمی وحید خراسانی: برای حفظ شعائر حسینی، باید از ورود بدعت‌ها و كارهای خلاف به نام عزاداری، جلوگیری كرد (دقت شود که ایشان نه تنها جایز نمی‌دانند، بلکه می‌فرمایند باید جلوگیری کرد) و نیز می‌فرمایند: «موضوع، حكم وجوب حفظ شعائر حسینی(ع) است. این كارهای خلاف، بدعت است  .  »

 

https://www.x-shobhe.com/print2810.html

In response to a question in this regard, Imam Khomeini said in the beginning of the revolution:
"Don'tdo Tatbir in the current situation". Ayatollah Wahid is one of those who consider it [Tatbir] permissible. (2) Of course, if it causes weakening of the religion or harms the body, it is not permissible.

https://www.pasokhgoo.ir/node/23325

https://www.balagh.ir/content/4914

A number of people, including the above, have driven permisibilty of Tatbir! Oh wonder! Why?

1- If the purpose of quoting this fatwa of Ayatollah Naini by Ayatollah Wahid is to discuss the great importance of the calamity and mourning of Imam Hussain, peace be upon him, how can one understand the opinion of the mujtahid from this fatwa quote, while at present it is also There is a clip of them saying in response to the questioner's question about Tatbir  that it is not permissible, and also that Ayatollah Faqih Imani sent a personal representative to his majesty and it was confirmed to them that Ayatollah Wahid's opinion is that Tatbir is forbidden.

2- In the clip, there is no  discussion about Tatbir  and razor is different from machete. There were even some old razor chains.

3- Hitting chest and Zajirzani that leads to bleeding (which is usually little) is different from Tatbir.

I repeat again that it is not about my conversation with Ayatollah Wahid with all the representatives and members of his offices [according to the above documents, his opinion regarding Tatbir is that it's forbidden and knowledgeable and competent people in his offices should also say the same opinion] but I am talking only with some people who work in his office and they express Ayatollah Wahid's opinion about the Tatbir [according to the above documents] upside down!

Quote

- Why is it that when in this clip, which is available in its entirety at this address, when other students ask questions or ask the questioner a question other than a question except  Tatbir, they  do not react sharply and do not stop him, but immediately who raise questions about Tatbir others react extremely quickly and stop by saying [sir, there is no question here]? What is this sharp reaction and this disruption of the scene for? If there is no place for questions here, then why is there a place for questions for students, or why is there a place for questions for non-machete questions?

4- Why is the opinion of Ayatollah wahid different from the opinion of some (not all) people working in their offices? That person does not know the opinion of Ayatollah Wahid and unknowingly and on the basis of the same famous and censored error, they teach their opinion wrongly, or did they intentionally engage in this censorship?

https://ghadirioon.blog.ir/post/سانسور-نظر-آیت-الله-وحید-خراسانی-در-مورد-قمه-زنی-و-چند-سوال-مهم

[AbdusSibtayn]

3 hours ago, Cool said:

25816 - ‏حدثنا : ‏ ‏يعقوب ‏، ‏قال : حدثنا : ‏ ‏أبي ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏ابن اسحاق ،‏ ‏قال : حدثني : ‏ ‏يحيى بن عباد بن عبد الله ابن الزبير ‏ ‏، عن ‏ ‏أبيه ‏ ‏عباد ،‏ ‏قال : سمعت ‏ ‏عائشة ‏ ‏تقول ‏: ‏مات رسول الله ‏ (ص) ‏ ‏بين ‏ ‏سحري ‏ ‏ونحري ‏، ‏وفي ‏ ‏دولتي ‏ ‏لم أظلم فيه أحدا فمن ‏ ‏سفهي ‏ ‏وحداثة سني ‏ ‏أن رسول الله ‏ ‏قبض ‏ ‏وهو في حجري ، ثم وضعت رأسه على وسادة ، وقمت ‏ ‏التدم ‏ ‏مع النساء وأضرب وجهي.

 Sayyida ‘Aisha said, “The Messenger of Allah (may Allah bless him and give him peace) passed away leaning against my chest. I did not wrong anyone regarding him. It was from my weakness and the youth of my age that the Messenger of Allah was taken whilst in my lap, then I placed his head on a pillow and stood hitting myself along with the women and hitting my face.”

This also refutes the argument of some of their scholars that the ahadith relating to mourning are from a period when matam/sinazani was not declared forbidden, therefore those ahadith are now mansookh i. e. not to be acted upon. This is clearly a hadith from after the death of Rasoolallah (S), so if he had prohibited matam within his lifetime, why is his wife hitting herself while mourning his death? Or, will they now say that his wife was not aware of the ruling? 

[AbdusSibtayn]

Long story short, despite all mental gymnastics by the opponents,as brothers @Cool and @Haji 2003 have demonstrated, from the verse related to Yaqub (عليه السلام) 's mourning for Yusuf (عليه السلام) alone it is plainly visible that matam is allowed. We don't even need secondary evidence. Any 'hadith' contradicting this clear verse is to be cast against the wall. 

Edited July 29, 2023 by AbdusSibtayn

[Haji 2003]

I posted this in May this year in another thread, but it's relevant here as well, I think. My take is that some people just do not like the optics, regardless of whatever the religious ethics are.

Lara Deeb (2006), 'An Enchanted Modern: Gender and Public Piety In Shi'i Lebanon'. (Princeton University Press).

[Haji 2003]

Slightly off topic, but interesting nevertheless

I never really thought of the Shia/Sunni divide in this way, but it's true isn't it?

Quote

Although sadness does not constitute an important element in the Moroccan-Belgian (Sunni) community, once Moroccan-Belgians embrace Shia Islam, they discipline their bodies to become sensitive to injustice though the cultivation of sadness and the shedding of tears.

Lechkar, I., 2017. Being a “true” Shi’ite: the poetics of emotions among Belgian-Moroccan Shiites. Journal of Muslims in Europe, 6(2), pp.241-259.

The phenomenon of Moroccan-Belgian Shias is an interesting one and I'll pick that up in another thread.

[Guest Stranger Danger]

Salam

Honestly, I believe there is a contradiction in ahadith in this regard.  A lot of people because they wish to hold on to reliability of our hadiths, won't acknowledge contradictions at all in any regard with anything and always try to solve contradictions.  Tusi was one of few scholars to see that for almost every notion, hadiths had a contradiction.

The story of Yaqoub (a) and Yusuf (a) show the truth of which hadiths are true. The "except Hussain (a)" tries to make an exception and solution, but reality is grief for Imam Mahdi (a) remaining in Ghayba and people going to hell, and the sad fate Prophets (a) faced in the past with their people, and Quran over all, is all reasons to be intensely grief given.  

Lose your whole family to a tyrant, and be told you are not allowed to grieve? What kind of logic is that?  It's a recipe to make cold hearted society which Muslims largely are and materialistic destined to hell not caring for the oppressed.

Tears are the heart of Islam as Yaqoub (a) knowledge was immensely higher then others and as a result he was grieved and he only complained to God.

Also, Quran talks about hard hearts not understanding Islam, taking words out of their place in Quran, and over all being blind, it's for this reason Satan and his kahen forces fabricated hadiths that forbid grieving and crying.   Because a soft heart would easily see the truth in Quran, and Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) are together in this regard, the Quran proves Ahlulbayt (a) beyond doubt to a soft heart.

[علوي]

On 7/28/2023 at 3:02 PM, AbdusSibtayn said:

Not very big on Tatbir myself, but I am not going to call my mu'min brothers who do tatbir 'barbarians' like the nawasib do, in these days of mourning. I take strong objection to this distasteful verbiage.

I did not call anyone barbarians. I said that this practice creates a barbaric image to outsiders. I never criticised any individual. 

On 7/28/2023 at 3:02 PM, AbdusSibtayn said:

Also quite rich that you are asking for textual evidence when you don't even know how to define sunnah, are manifestly ignorant of the basics of usul al-fiqh, such as the asl of bara'ah and the asl of 'la-darar wa la-dirar fi Islam', and are nowhere near the level of istidlal yourself.

You're right: I am not a genius in fiqhi issues to any degree; that's why I follow Ayatollah al-Khamenei, who rules that tatbeer is haram. Whether it's due to a reason regarding the actual fiqh or purely to salvage the image of the religion of Islam, it's haram. If other maraje3 rule it as halal, I (personally) have no issue with them from a purely religious viewpoint. The issue (for me) is regarding the sanctity of the image of Islam. 

14 hours ago, Cool said:

Is there any hadith which suggest that we should go on roads with Alams, Zuljenah, Ta'ziyah? 

Is there any hadith which suggest the design of Alam, its length, width & height? 

Is there any hadith which suggest the donation of body organs or which suggests their transplant?

None of these things in any way cause a negative image for us. The same cannot be said for ma2tam. 

Let me clarify my position. Mourning for Imam al-Husayn (عليه السلام) is a recommended act, as clearly seen in numerous ahadeeth. However, this mourning needs to be done in ways which are (1) sanctioned by the Ahlulbayt and (2) appropriate for the social context in which we are living. (My statement before still stands): Tatbeer as it is performed today was not performed by the Ahlulbayt or any of their companions. Whether or not we want to apply the ahadeeth forbidding self-harm to Husayni rituals, the ahadeeth on safeguarding the image of Islam definitely apply, forcing us to abandon any practice which may harm it.

This is, as far as I know, the view held by Ayatollah al-Khamenei. 

[علوي]

Ayatullah Shaykh Makarem al Shirazi on the Issue of Tatbir - Farsi sub English [7 MINUTES]

https://www.shiatv.net/video/1639006221

[Cool]

11 minutes ago, علوي said:

None of these things in any way cause a negative image for us. The same cannot be said for ma2tam. 

Salam Brother!

What I have observed is that many of us start behaving like "marja force" when discussing these sort of subjects. And you are thinking that "matam cause a negative image" of us.

While this thinking itself cause a negative impact for Shias. You can just take the example of this site alone which was quite rich in couple of years ago, there were so many active members on this site. Now we see only 4-6 persons online at any point of time. 

What your anti matam comments are doing is that your own people are getting away from you. Your negative image appears on them and the negative image of this site as well. 

Which religion stops people from protesting against injustice? You think shi'ite prohibits against expressing your sadness or anger? 

 

لاَّ يُحِبُّ اللّهُ الْجَهْرَ بِالسُّوَءِ مِنَ الْقَوْلِ إِلاَّ مَن ظُلِمَ

4:148)

So the argument of causing "negative image" is such a ridiculous argument which oppositely gives negative image of the ones who present this argument before their fellow shias. This argument itself causing disunity among shias.

Why not all the grand ayatullahs, the ones who prohibit matam and the ones who allows it, sit together and settle this issue? People at the bottom level are looking the marja's. 

It is quite surprising for me that you are not criticizing any "type of matam" here but matam as a whole which includes chest beating.  So tell me the name of any single marja which prohibits the chest beating? 

Let people express their sadness, let people protest against the injustice done in Karbala. Otherwise feel free to raise any objection, people will not listen to you and continue to do whatever they are doing. In my country, your "negative image" argument is proved flop as more & more people have started doing tatbir and zanjeer zani every year. The ones who were impressed by the "islamic revolution" are now freely speak against the Iranian leadership and respected scholars, encouraging their children to do blood matam. 

So you have Grand Ayatullah Bashir Najafi vs Grand Ayatullah Khamenei, you have Grand Ayatullah Shirazi against Grand Ayatullah Nasir Mukaram etc. These grand ayatullahs are actually blaming the others for causing negative image of shi'ism. And while you may be happy with this fight between wali e faqeeh, it is a point of sadness for me. The ones (wali e faqeeh) who call themselves servants of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) are disputing with each other on the matter called azadari. That's shameful indeed!

49 minutes ago, علوي said:

Tatbeer as it is performed today was not performed by the Ahlulbayt or any of their companions.

You must clarify brother, are you criticizing a "form of matam" called tatbir or are you criticizing "matam" of any form. 

And if you are criticizing tatbir, why not you criticize the grand ayatullah who allows/approves such form of matam? 

And also let me know "blood donation" was performed by which Imam or by which companion of Ahlul Bayt? If you want to act only that which is done by Imams or any of their companions, who among them performed organ donation or organ transplant? 

Wassalam!

[Cool]

And also brother, there are many sahih ahadith in our books mentioning that wearing black clothes as makrooh (disliked), on what grounds the marja's allow us to wear black clothes? The "negative image" argument will catch you here too as you are allowing & promoting the actions which are disliked by our Imams. Means our scholars allow & promote that which is disliked by the Imams.