The Superiority of Ali ibn Abi Talib In The Quran, Sunnah, & Intellect

[Ethics]

Is the commander of faithful [AS] superior to all the prophets [PBUTH]?

You might be surprise after seeing this title that Ali [AS] is superior to all prophets [AS] except prophet Muhammad [PBUTH], and before any studying, you might accuse us of exaggeration and passing the limit of mind and Sharia, but before any judgment we suggest you to follow us to see that how we prove this fact by reasoning and logic, then you’ll judge and find out that getting to the fact isn’t difficult but it will be easy by passing pessimism and doubt.

Ali’s[AS] superiority amongst humans is an inevitable fact, because both “Quran” and “traditions” prove this belief, though, dirty hands have always tried to deny the virtues and high traits of this divine man and have perverted the mind of many of Muslims by changing historical facts, so we’ll follow the matter of Ali’s superiority in three chapters: “Quran”, “tradition” and “intellect”:

 

The superior appearance of Ali [AS] in “Quran”:

1: “Tathir” verse:[purification]

The first verse amongst tens of verses in “Quran” that explains and implies-as narrators and interpreters admitted- the superiority of spiritual positions of commander of faithful [AS] is this verse:

«انما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس اهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا»

O family of the House, Allah only wishes to distance fault from you, and to cleanse you, and to purify you abundantly. 

Sura AL-AHZAB, verse 33

In this verse- known as “Tathir” verse- Ali [AS] and his infallible children [AS] were introduced better than all prophets [AS]except prophet Muhammad [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)], because god has decisively announced the cleanliness and infallibility of all his messenger’s dynasty.  

Important words in this verse such as: ”انّما، يريد، ليذهب، الرجس, اهل البيت” are the secrets and keys of understanding this verse that without knowing them we won’t be able to realize the profound content of this verse, so we’ll deal with explaining these words:

1: the word "انّما" shows exclusiveness:

This word at the first of the verse implies special attention to the topic and content of the verse, because this word makes limitation and exclusiveness in the meaning and content of the verse that shows the importance and the greatness of the content.

“Ibn Manzur” was an Arab lexicographer of the Arabic language and author of a large dictionary, Lisan al-ʿArab (لسان العرب; lit. 'The Tongue of the Arabs'). says:

ومعني إنما إثبات لما يذكر بعدها ونفي لما سواه كقوله : وإنما يدافع عن أحسابهم أنا أو مثلي المعني : ما يدافع عن أحسابهم إلا أنا أو من هو مثلي ،

The word “انّما” proves the concept of what is written after it such as this sentence: Only I or someone like me defends their account. Meaning: No one defends their account except me or someone like me, and

Lesan Al-Arab,v 13, p 31

This point must be paid attention that exclusiveness in this verse is the “exclusiveness of decree in topic”, like “Velayat” verse: «انّما وليّكم اللّه و رسوله والذين آمنوا...» which in this verse the guardianship is defined only for God, the Messenger and the believer with the characteristics to pay zakat while praying. Definitely, the purification in the verse in question is of the first type, that is, a judicial limitation, not a subjective limitation; That is, purity and fault and avoidance of filth are reserved for the people who are called Ahlulbayt, may peace be upon them, and this characteristic is specific to them, and no person who is disrespectful to them will be included.

2: “pronoun” emphasizes on exclusiveness

Not only the word “انّما" shows exclusiveness, but the “عنکم” emphasizes on more exclusiveness, because the object of the verb «ليُذهب» which is “الرجس” must be after its verb but it’s like that and “عنکم” is between them that isn’t without reason because when a word that its position is at end of the sentence, is preceded, it shows the exclusiveness of concept in that sentence.

“Ibn Hajar” a classical sunni scholar writes in his book, chapter: sent down verses about “Ahl Al-Bayt” virtues.

الآية الأولي: قال الله تعالي: إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا.

Sura AL-AHZAB, verse 33

أكثر المفسرين علي أنها نزلت في علي وفاطمة والحسن والحسين لتذكير ضمير عنكم وما بعده.

Most of interpreters say that this verse is about “Ali” [AS], “Fatimah” [AS], Hasan and Hussein [AS], because of this pronoun «عنكم».

Then he quotes possibilities using of the word “it’s been said” that its reference is unclear and he says after quoting some narratives: this verse has been sent down about spouses and all “Bani Hashim”.

Him and his followers who’re trying to partner ordinary and incompetent in such great virtues, must be questioned that: why despite the confession of most of interpreters who say that this verse is sent down about particular people from Prophet’s [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] relative dynasty, you rely on the talk of minority and try to show that what they say is true? Isn’t it enmity towards “Ali” [AS], “Fatimah” [AS] and their two children?

Eventually, “Ibn Hajar” says that this verse is the resource of all virtues of “Ahl Al-Bayt” [AS] not anyone else, and انما"” that implies exclusiveness, shows that this verse is just about “Ah Al-Bayt” [AS].

ثم هذه الآية منبع فضائل أهل البيت النبوي لاشتمالها علي غرر من مآثرهم والاعتناء بشأنهم حيث ابتدئت بإنما المفيدة لحصر إرادته تعالي في أمرهم علي إذهاب الرجس الذي هو الإثم أو الشك فيما يجب الإيمان به عنه وتطهيرهم من سائر الأخلاق والأحوال المذمومة.

This verse is the resource of all virtues of prophet’s [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] dynasty, and is particular for “Ahl Al-Bayt”, because the word “انما” has negated any kind of evil, sin and doubt towards them.

3: god’s will:

God’s will in the sentence ” يريد الله “ is “Takvini wilayah” [god’s will while creating creatures, god’s act] not “Tashrihi wilayah” [god’s legitimate commands and prohibitions] , because in “Tashrihi wilayah” all people are addressed without exception, but “Takvini wilayah” doesn’t need to contain everybody and God can allocate a virtue or a trait to certain people and deprive others.

So in the verse of conversation will is just “Takvini wilayah” because removing filth and getting purified aren’t general to contain all people or followers of a sect, because fault means any kind of filth that makes others to detest and getting away of sincere servitude of god and this fact isn’t fulfilled unless by god’s “Takvini will”. 

4: repulsing the filth:

The word “اذهاب” in here means repulsing before appearance because it’s used in this meaning in our conversations, for instance someone says: «أذهب اللّه عنكم الداء والسوء» I wish god to keep you away of disease and sadness, that doesn’t mean that that guy is sick and he’s praying for him to recover but this wish could be made before disease or hardship.

So “اذهاب” means “repulse” that before it appears, not “removal” which is eliminating after appearance, that’s why the word “لیذهب” is in the verse not “لیزیل”.

5. Filth and evil:

One of the key words in this verse is the word “filth”. Famous philologist “Al-Fayoumy” writes:

« الرجس: النتن. و الرجس: القذر. قال الفارابيّ: كلّ شي ء يستقذر فهو رجس».

Abomination: stinking. And abomination: dirty. Al-Farabi said: Everything that is considered filthy is an abomination.

 Ahmad bin Mohammed Al-Fayoumy, Al-Misbah al-Munir, vol. 1, p. 219,

The author of the book “Al-ein” writes:

« رجس: كل شي ء يستقذر فهو رجس كالخنزير، و قد رجس الرجل رجاسة من القذر، و إنه لرجس مرجوس. و الرجس في القرآن العذاب كالرجز، و كل قذر رجس. و رجس الشيطان وسوسته و همزه...».

“Filth” is anything that is “Evil”, like “Pig”, and in “Quran” filth means punishment and any evil is filth.

The book “Al-ein”, v 6, p 52

“Raghib Esbahani” has divided “Filth” to three parts, naturel, intellectual and legitimate, and says:

« الرجس الشيء القذر».

“Filth” is anything which is unclean and polluted.

According to what is stated in the statements of the scholars of lexicography, some of which we have mentioned, regis is anything whose presence in a person provides the basis for defects, hurts the soul of a person, and causes people to hate and alienate them, and it includes any kind of sin and iniquity. and pollution or being caught in the trap and temptations of the devil. Although some have tried to narrow the scope of the meaning and examples of the verse and consider the abomination to be exclusive to polytheism and interpret the purpose of the verse only to cleanse the Ahllbayt from polytheism to God and say: "it does not include sins" so that some of the relatives maybe included too, but according to the general application and usage of the word "Al-Rajs" due to the presence of "Al" and "El" next to the word "Rajs", without a doubt, its content should negate and remove all kinds of material filth, and spiritually, external and internal flaws and defects or any kind of deviation at all times, the result of which will be the proof of complete innocence from all sins.

Elders’ interpreters:

Fortunately, Sunni scholars have mentioned to this point that “Filth” includes all sins and evils not just associating with god:

“Fakhr al-Din al-Razi” says in the interpretation of this book:

فقوله تعالي : { لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ الرجس } أي يزيل عنكم الذنوب ويطهركم أي يلبسكم خلع الكرامة...

This verse means: god has distanced all sins from you and put the cloth of dignity on you.

Al-Razi Safi’I, Tafsir al-kabir, v 22, p 201

“hessas” Sunni exegete says in his book:

قال تعالي ( إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيرا) يحتمل التطهير من الذنوب.

Probably it means purity of evil and sins.

Decrees of Quran, v 4 p 33

 “Imam Shawkaanee'” says:

« والمراد بالرجس الإثم والذنب المدنسان للأعراض الحاصلان بسبب ترك ما أمر الله به وفعل ما نهي عنه فيدخل تحت ذلك كل ما ليس فيه لله رضا ».

“Filth” means sins committed due to disobeying god and doing what he dislikes.

Fath al-Qadeer , v 4, p 278

Other exegetes such as: “Ibn Atiyah” and “Tha’labi” have said:

« و الرِّجْسَ اسم يقع علي الإثم و علي العذاب و علي النجاسات و النقائص، فأذهب اللّه جميع ذلك عن أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ ».

“Filth” includes punishment, unclean things and any fault, god has distanced all of them from “Ahl Al-Bayt”.

Javaher Al-Lesan in interpretation of “Quran”, v 4, p 346

“Al-Alusi” writes in his exegete book:

والرجس في الأصل الشيء القذر...، وقيل : إن الرجس يقع علي الإثم وعلي العذاب وعلي النجاسة وعلي النقائص ، والمراد به هنا ما يعم كل ذلك ... وأل فيه للجنس أو للاستغراق ، والمراد بالتطهير قيل: التحلية بالتقوي ، والمعني علي ما قيل: إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الذنوب والمعاصي فيما نهاكم ويحليكم بالتقوي تحلية بليغة فيما أمركم ، وجوّز أن يراد به الصون ، والمعني إنما يريد سبحانه ليذهب عنكم الرجس ويصونكم من المعاصي صوناً بليغاً فيما أمر ونهي جل شأنه .

“Filth” means evil….. and it’s been said that it includes sin, punishment and impurity and any fault, the meaning of “رجس” [Filth] in this verse includes all mentioned meanings…. “ال” in the word “التطهیر” [purification] shows generality, it means god’s willed to distance sins from you “Ahl Al-Bayt” and adorn with piety and protect you of evil.

Rouh al-Ma'ani, v 22, p 12

“Tantawi” another Sunni expert in his exegete book:

« و الرجس في الأصل : يطلق علي كل شئ مستقذر. وأريد به هنا : الذنوب والآثام وما يشبه ذلك من النقائص والأدناس».

In fact, “Filth” includes any evil thing, but in this verse, it means the purity of any sin and fault.

Tantawi, al-Tafsir al-wasit, v 11, p 20

6: Ahl Al-Bayt” [people of the house]

The word “Ahl” is used about those that we have kind of physical, spiritual, intellectual, religious and family dependence towards them. So our family members, spouse, child, grand child and …. are our “Ahl” because we depend on them. So we can say that radical point in the meaning of “Ahl” is dependence, though, sometimes guys except our relatives can be part of our “Ahl”, such as “Salman Farsi” who gets the title of “منّا اهل البيت”, [Salmanis part of Ahl Al-Bayt]. But sometimes it’s vice versa, despite of someone is our relative but due to an act against god’s command and disobeying father’s request, isn’t considered as our “Ahl” such as: the son of “Noah” that god says about him:

“ انّه ليس من أهلك”

Plus showing family relation, sometimes this word has other meanings that its next word determines it.

At first we take look at the opinions of philologist about the word “Ahl” then we’ll say the view of narrators, historians.

Philologists like: “Ibn Manzur” and others say:

أَهْل الرجل عَشِيرتُه وذَوُو قُرْباه.

The “Ahl” of a man are his dynasty and relatives.

Lesan al-Arab, v 11, p28, Taj al-Aroos, v 28, p 40

Late “Tarihi” writes:

(أهل) أهل الرجل: آله. و هم أشياعه و أتباعه و أهل ملته...و قد مر في (امر): أنهم أهل بيته خاصة.

The “Ahl” of a man are his dynasty and followers.

Majma’ al-Bahrain, al-Tarihi, v 5, p 203

After looking up into the words of the verse and taking look at the views of philology elders, now we’ll talk about the cause of the revelation of the verse to see if verse includes Ali [AS] like prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)], Fatimah [AS] and her children, till he enjoys of this grate virtue or not?

Allamah “Jalal Al-din Suyuti” has quoted 20 narratives quoted via different ways in exegete “Al-Dur Al-Mansur” to prove that the meaning of “Ahl Al-Bayt” is: prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)], Ali [AS], Fatimah [AS], Hasan and Hussein [AS]:

أخرج ابن جرير وابن أبي حاتم والطبراني وابن مردويه عن أم سلمة رضي الله عنها زوج النبي صلي الله عليه وسلم : « أن رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم كان ببيتها علي منامة له عليه كساء خيبري ، فجاءت فاطمة رضي الله عنها ببرمة فيها خزيرة فقال رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم » ادعي زوجك ، وابنيك ، حسناً ، وحسيناً ، فدعتهم فبينما هم يأكلون إذ نزلت علي رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم { إنما يريد الله ليذهب عنكم الرجس أهل البيت ويطهركم تطهيراً } فأخذ النبي صلي الله عليه وسلم بفضلة ازاره ، فغشاهم إياها ، ثم أخرج يده من الكساء وأومأ بها إلي السماء ، ثم قال : اللهم هؤلاء أهل بيتي وخاصتي ، فاذهب عنهم الرجس ، وطهرهم تطهيراً ، قالها ثلاث مرات . قالت أم سلمة رضي الله عنها : فادخلت رأسي في الستر فقلت : يا رسول الله وأنا معكم فقال : إنك إلي خير مرتين « ».

It’s been quoted from “Umm Salamah”: prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] was in my house and had put on a “Kheibari” cloak. “Fatimah” [AS] came in, prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] said to her: call upon your husband and your two children “Hasan” and “Hussein” [AS], Fatimah [AS] did so and they began having food, suddenly this verse was sent down:” Family of the House, Allah only wishes to distance fault from you, and to cleanse you, and to purify you abundantly”, prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] put clock on their head, then, he raised his hand hands towards sky and said: these are my “Ahl al-Bayt”, god! Purify them of any type of filth, he repeated this sentence three times. “Umm Salamah” said: what about me? Prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] said: you’re in good path.

Al-dur Al-Mansur, v 6, p 603

“Haskani” is another narrator of quoted narratives about “Quran” verses, he’s quoted several narratives about this verse too:

The narrator of “Jaber ibn Abd Allah ibn Ansari”:

نزلت هذه الآية علي النبي ص و ليس في البيت إلا فاطمة و الحسن و الحسين و عليّ إِنَّما يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنْكُمُ الرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ الْبَيْتِ وَ يُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيراً فقال النبي ص: اللهم هؤلاء أهلي ».

When this verse was sent down there wasn’t anybody at home except Fatimah [AS], Hsana and Hussein [AS] and Ali [AS], prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] said: god, they’re my “Ahl”.

Haskani, Shawahid al-tanzil, v 2, p 29

The result of this part of studying about “Tathir” verse shows the presence of Ali [AS] beside prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] his spouse and his two children. They’re given good tiding by god, which is purification and distance of any pollution and filth, and it shows Ali’s [AS] superiority than prophets [AS]. [Though he’s not prophet and is just successor of prophet].

2: “Mubahilah” verse [cursing the ones who lie]

This is another verse that proves Ali’s [AS] superiority than all prophets except prophet Muhammad [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)]:

فمن حاجك فيه من بعد ماجاءك من العلم فقل تعالوا ندع ابناءنا وابناءكم و نساءنا ونساءكم وانفسنا وانفسكم ثم نبتهل فنجعل لعنة الله علي الكاذبين .

Those who dispute with you concerning him after the knowledge has come to you, say: 'Come, let us gather our sons and your sons, our womenfolk and your womenfolk, ourselves and yourselves. Then let us humbly pray, so lay the curse of Allah upon the ones who lie.

Sura AL-E-IMRAN, verse  61

THE cause of revelation

Undoubtedly, “Mubahilah” verse was sent down about five selected persons by god [those who prophet put his cloak on them plus prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)], Because many of narrators, exegetes, historians and theologians have written this issue in their books and it’s among certain issues. On the other hand historical evidences prove that, in the event “Mubahilah” with “Najran” Nazarenes, prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)], amongst women, just Fatimah [AS] and –amongst children- just took Hasan and Hussein [AS] his two grandchildren with him.

“Muslim” writes in his book:

ولمّا نزلت هذه الآية : (فقل تعالوا ندع أبنائنا وأبنائكم) دعا رسول اللّه ص عليّاً وفاطمة وحسناً وحسيناً فقال : اللهمّ هؤلاء أهلي.

When this verse was sent down prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] called upon Ali [AS], Fatimah [AS], Hasan and Hussein [AS] and prayed: god, they’re my dynasty.

Shahih Muslim, v 7, p 120, the book of shabis virtues, musnad Ahamd, v 1, p 185

أخرج الحاكم وصححه وابن مردويه وأبو نعيم في الدلائل عن جابر قال » قدم علي النبي صلي الله عليه وسلم العاقب ، والسيد ، فدعاهما إلي الإِسلام فقالا : أسلمنا يا محمد قال : كذبتما إن شئتما أخبرتكما بما يمنعكما من الإِسلام . قالا : فهات . قال : حب الصليب ، وشرب الخمر ، وأكل لحم الخنزير ، قال جابر : فدعاهما إلي الملاعنة ، فوعداه إلي الغد ، فغدا رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم ، وأخذ بيد علي ، وفاطمة ، والحسن ، والحسين ، ثم أرسل إليهما فأبيا أن يجيباه ، وأقرا له ، فقال : والذي بعثني بالحق لو فعلا لأمطر الوادي عليهما ناراً . قال جابر : فيهم نزلت { تعالوا ندع أبناءنا وأبناءكم . . . } الآية . قال جابر : أنفسنا وأنفسكم رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم وعلي ، وأبناءنا الحسن والحسين ، ونساءنا فاطمة.

Two of Christian famous figures named “Aqib” and “Sayed Muhzar” went to prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)]. Prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] told them to become Muslim, they said: we’re Muslim, prophet said: you’re lying, if you want I can prove that you’re not Muslim, they said: prove, prophet said: you’re interest in cross and drinking wine and eating pork, then invited them to “Mubahilah”, in the morning Prophet[(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] went out of “MEDINA” with Ali [AS], Fatimah [AS] and Hasan and Hussein [AS], and ivited “Sayed Aqib” to “Mubahilah” but they didn’t accept and gave up. Prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] said: swear to god, if they had accepted my invitation to “Mubahilah”, fire would have showered on them from sky, “Jabir” said: this verse this verse was sent down about prophet’s [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] dynasty: [.…تعالوا ندع أبناءنا وأبناءكم ]

Al-Durr al-Manthur, v 2, p 230

أخرج الحاكم وصححه عن جابر » أن وفد نجران أتوا النبي فقالوا : ما تقول في عيسي؟ فقال : هو روح الله ، وكلمته ، وعبد الله ، ورسوله ، قالوا له : هل لك أن نلاعنك أنه ليس كذلك؟ قال : وذاك أحب إليكم؟ قالوا : نعم . قال : فإذا شئتم . فجاء وجمع ولده الحسن والحسين ، فقال رئيسهم : لا تلاعنوا هذا الرجل فوالله لئن لاعنتموه ليخسفن بأحد الفريقين فجاؤوا فقالوا : يا أبا القاسم إنما أراد أن يلاعنك سفهاؤنا ، وإنا نحب أن تعفينا . قال قد أعفيتكم ثم قال : إن العذاب قد أظل نجران.

Group of people of “Najran” went to prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] and said: what do you say about “Isa”? he’s the soul, thrall and the messenger of god, they said: we’re ready to perform “Mubahilah” with you that he’s like this. Prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)]: I’m ready to do that, he prepared his two grandchildren “Hasan” and “Hussein” [AS] to perform “Mubahalah”, but they gave up.

 Al-Dur al-Manthr, v 2, p 230

Except above narratives , Allamah “Haskani” has quoted some other narratives with the same content with little changes but because content is the same we avoid translating them:

وأخرج أبو النعيم في الدلائل من طريق الكلبي عن أبي صالح عن ابن عباس أن وفد نجران من النصاري قدموا علي رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم وهم أربعة عشر رجلا من أشرافهم منهم السيد وهو الكبير والعاقب وهو الذي يكون بعده وصاحب رأيهم فقال رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم لهما : أسلما قالا : أسلمنا قال : ما أسلمتما قالا : بلي قد أسلمنا قبلك قال : كذبتما يمنعكم من الإسلام ثلاث فيكما : عبادتكما الصليب وأكلكما الخنزير وزعمكما أن لله ولدا ونزل ) إن مثل عيسي عند الله كمثل آدم خلقه من تراب ( الآية) فلما قرأها عليهم قالوا : ما نعرف ما تقول ونزل ) فمن حاجك فيه من بعد ما جاءك من العلم ( يقول : من جادلك في أمر عيسي من بعد ما جاءك من العلم من القرآن ) فقل تعالوا ( إلي قوله ) ثم نبتهل ( يقول : نجتهد في الدعاء أن الذي جاء به محمد هو الحق وأن الذي يقولون هو الباطل فقال لهم : إن الله قد أمرني إن لم تقبلواهذا أن أباهلكم فقالوا : يا أبا القاسم بل نرجع فننظر في أمرنا ثم نأتيك فخلا بعضهم ببعض وتصادقوا فيما بينهم قال السيد للعاقب : قد والله علمتم أن الرجل نبي مرسل ولئن لاعنتموه إنه ليستأصلكم وما لاعن قوم قط نبيا فبقي كبيرهم ولا نبت صغيرهم فإن أنتم لم تتبعوه وأبيتم إلا إلف دينكم فوادعوه وارجعوا إلي بلادكم وقد كان رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم خرج ومعه علي والحسن والحسين وفاطمة فقال رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم : إن أنا دعوت فأمنوا أنتم فأبوا أن يلاعنوه وصالحوه علي الجزية

Al-Durr al-Manthur, v 2, p 231, 232

وأخرج أبو نعيم في الدلائل من طريق عطاء والضحاك عن ابن عباس أن ثمانية من أساقف العرب من أهل نجران قدموا علي رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم منهم العاقب والسيد فأنزل الله ) فقل تعالوا ندع أبناءنا ( إلي قوله ) ثم نبتهل ( يريد ندع الله باللعنة علي الكاذب فقالوا : أخرنا ثلاثة أيام فذهبوا إلي بني قريظة والنضير وبني قينقاع فاستشاروهم فأشاروا عليهم أن يصالحوه ولا يلاعنوه وهو النبي الذي نجده في التوراة فصالحوا النبي صلي الله عليه وسلم علي ألف حلة في صفر وألف في رجب ودراهم.

Al-Durr al-Manthur, v 2, p 232

أخرج مسلم والترمذي وابن المنذر والحاكم والبيهقي في سننه عن سعد بن أبي وقاص قال : « لما نزلت هذه الآية { فقل تعالوا ندع أبناءنا وأبناءكم } دعا رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم علياً ، وفاطمة ، وحسناً ، وحسيناً ، فقال » اللهم هؤلاء أهلي « » .

Al-Durr al-Manthur, v 2, p 232

وأخرج ابن جرير عن غلباء بن أحمر اليشكري قال « لما نزلت هذه الآية { فقل تعالوا ندع أبناءنا وأبناءكم . . . } الآية . أرسل رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم إلي علي ، وفاطمة ، وابنيهما الحسن ، والحسين ، ودعا اليهود ليلاعنهم فقال شاب من اليهود : ويحكم أليس عهدكم بالأمس إخوانكم الذين مسخوا قردة وخنازير؟ لا تلاعنوا . فانتهوا »

Al-Durr al-Manthur, v 2, p 232

Ali [AS] is the soul of prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)]

One of verses that we can use it to prove Ali’s [AS] superiority than all humans even prophets except Islam's prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] is “Mubahilah” verse, because god introduces “Ali” [AS] as the soul of prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)], and the narrations and sayings of historians and hadith scholars are also used that the meaning of “انفسنا” is “Ali” [AS].

قال جابر: (أنفسنا وأنفسكم) رسول اللّه وعلي بن أبي طالب (وأبنائنا) الحسن والحسين (ونسائنا) فاطمة. وهكذا رواه الحاكم في مستدركه... ثمّ قال: صحيح علي شرط مسلم ولم يخرجاه.

“Jaber” has said that the meanings of (أنفسنا وأنفسكم) are Prophet Muhammad [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] and Ali [AS] and the meaning of (أبنائنا) is “Hasan” and “Hussein” [AS] and (نسائنا) means “Fatimah” [AS].

Tafsir, ibn kathir, v 1 p 379 ,Shukani,  Fath Al-qadir v 1, p 348

“al-Zamakhshari” says:

وفيه دليل لا شئ أقوي منه علي فضل أصحاب الكساء عليهم السلام.

This verse is the strongest and most valid reason for the superiority of “Kisa’” [cloak] companions.

Al-Kashshaf, v 1, p 370

“Ibn Hajar Haytami” says:

وأخرج الدارقطني أن عليا قال للستة الذين جعل عمر الأمر شوري بينهم كلاما طويلا من جملته أنشدكم بالله هل فيكم أحد قال له رسول الله صلي الله عليه وسلم ( يا علي أنت قسيم الجنة والنار يوم القيامة غيري قالوا اللهم لا ).

“Dar Qatni” has quoted: Ali, peace be upon him, protested with those present on the day of Shura and said: I swear to God, is there anyone among you whose kinship is closer to the Messenger of God And is there anyone other than me whom the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, made him his soul and called his children his children and his wife as superior to his wife? They said: no there’s not.

“Jabir Ibn Abdullah” says: we were with prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] that Ali [AS] arrived. Prophet said: my brother has come. Then he touched “Ka’aba” and said: swear to god, it’s him and his Shiites who are prosperous on the day of Resurrection, he’s the first one of you who believed and is the most staunch of you to god’s promise, and is the most righteous of you amongst peasant and is the most cherished of you in the sight of god. Then this verse was sent:

“ان الذين آمنوا وعملوا الصالحات أولئك هم خير البرية”

Kefayat al Talib, 118

Who/what is “Al-Bariyyah” [the best creature]?

You saw some of narratives about “Al-Bariyyah” verse that introduced the instance of “Best creature” and it must be enough for those seeking the truth and these narratives decry falsifiers and ill-wishers of Ali [AS] and his children and from another side these narratives prove the superiority of Ali [AS] over prophets except prophet Muhammad [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] and prophecy position, because «خير البريه means “the best creature” and is a trait that includes the beginning of creation to the end and it’s an honor for Ali [AS].

Ali’s [AS] superior face in Hadith:

Imagining divine face of commander of faithful [AS] and depicting his behavioral, practical and verbal beauties from amongst Thousands of talks of prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] require creating the books, however elders, in the past and present, have written books in this regard, but prophet’s [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] narratives about the personality of virtues of Ali [AS] are a lot. Amongst all these narrative, following narrative has been quoted by supporters and opponents and is a valid document for our claim and in fact it’s the complement for former verses and indicates Ali’s [AS] superiority over all prophets except prophet Muhammad [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)]:

«من أراد أن يري آدم في علمه ، ونوحاً في طاعته ، وإبراهيم في خلته ، وموسي في هيبته ، وعيسي في صفوته ، فلينظر إلي علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه »

Anyone who wants to see the knowledge of “Adam” , the tolerance of “Noah”, the fame of “Abraham” and the greatness of “Muses”, should look at Ali [AS].

قوله صلي الله عليه وآله وسلم : ( من أراد أن ينظر إلي نوح في عزمه ، والي آدم في علمه ، والي إبراهيم في حلمه ، والي موسي في فطنته ، والي عيسي في زهده ، فلينظر إلي علي بن أبي طالب ) . أخرجه البيهقي في صحيحه ، والإمام أحمد بن حنبل في مسنده ).

This narrative has been quoted by “Beihaqi” and “Ahmad Ibn Hanbal” two of famous narrators and writers, the owner of famous works, but unfortunately this narrative isn’t seen in new editions, it shows that this Hadith has been distorted just like other historical quotations regarding Ali’s [AS] virtues.

“Ibn Abi Al-Hadid” has admitted to the virtues of Ali [AS] and has quoted this Hadith without any doubt.

الخبر الرابع : من أراد أن ينظر إلي نوح في عزمه ، وإلي آدم في علمه ، وإلي إبراهيم في حلمه ، وإلي موسي في فطنته ، وإلي عيسي في زهده ، فلينظر إلي علي بن أبي طالب ' .

رواه أحمد بن حنبل في المسند ، ورواه أحمد البيهقي في صحيحه .

The exegete of Nahj Al-Balaghah, v 9, p 100

“Fakhr al-Din al-Razi says:

ويؤيد الاستدلال بهذه الآية ، الحديث المقبول عند الموافق والمخالف ، وهو قوله عليه السلام : ( من أراد أن يري آدم في علمه ، ونوحاً في طاعته ، وإبراهيم في خلته ، وموسي في هيبته ، وعيسي في صفوته ، فلينظر إلي علي بن أبي طالب رضي الله عنه ) فالحديث دل علي أنه اجتمع فيه ما كان متفرقاً فيهم ، وذلك يدل علي أن علياً رضي الله عنه أفضل من جميع الأنبياء سوي محمد صلي الله عليه وسلم...

There’s a narrative that confirms reasoning to this verse to prove Ali’s [AS] superiority] and both supporters and opponents accept it and that narrative is from prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] who said: “Anyone who wants to see the knowledge of “Adam” , the tolerance of “Noah”, the fame of “Abraham” and the greatness of “Moses”, should look at Ali [AS]”. Because this Hadith implies that all these traits exist in these prophets separately, exist in Ali [AS] and it shows that Ali [AS] is better than all prophets [AS] except Prophet Muhammad [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)].

Al-Tafsi Al-Kabir, v 8, p 72

“Abu Hayyan al-Andalusi” the owner of Tafsi book “ Al-Bahr Al-Muhit” has denied and says It’s been forged, Of course the view of such guys is quite clear, because the topic of this Hadith is citing the virtues of Ali [AS] from prophet [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] that’s why they say that it’s been forged. He says:

وأما الحديث الذي استدل به فموضوع لا أصل له . وهذه النزغة التي ذهب إليها هذا الحمصي من كون علي أفضل من الأنبياء عليهم السلام سوي محمد صلي الله عليه وسلم ) ، وتلقفها بعض من ينتحل كلام الصوفية ، ووسع المجال فيها ، فزعم أن الولي أفضل من النبي...هذه المقالة مخالفة لمقالات أهل الإسلام . نعوذ بالله من ذلك...

The Hadith of Ali’s [AS] superiority over prophets [AS] has been forged…… the thought of lord’s superiority over prophet is in contradictory with Islamic beliefs.

Tafsir Al Bahr Al Muhit ”, v 2, p 504

Late “Mara’shi” The author of the book “Sharh ehqaq Al-Haqq” has made throughout research amongst Sunni books and extracted this Hadith from Sunni narrative resources:

الحديث الرابع والعشرون ( من أراد أن ينظر إلي آدم ، إلي نوح ، إلي إبراهيم ، إلي موسي ، إلي عيسي ، فلينظر إلي علي بن أبي طالب عليه السلام ) رواه جماعة من أعلام العامة في كتبهم : منهم العلامة المولوي ولي الله اللكنهوئي في ( مرآة المؤمنين في مناقب أهل بيت سيد المرسلين ) ( ص 35 ) قال : ( في حديث ) قال صلي الله عليه وسلم : من أراد أن ينظر إلي آدم في علمه وإلي نوح في تقواه وإلي إبراهيم في حلمه وإلي موسي في هيبته وإلي عيسي في عبادته فلينظر إلي علي بن أبي طالب .

Anyone who wants to see the knowledge of “Adam” , the piety of “Noah”, the fame of “Abraham” and the greatness of “Muses” and the worshiping of “Isa”, should look at Ali [AS].

Then late “Mara’shi” mentions to Sunni resources which have quoted this narrative:

Allamah “Shahab Al-Din Ahmad Husseini shafi’I”, “Tuzih Al-Dalil”, p 232, Allamah Abu Hafs Umar ibn Muhammad, “Al-Vasilah”, p 168, Allamah Jamal Al-Din Muhammad ibn Mukram Ansari, “the history of Damascus”, v 17, p 148, and….

Sharh Ehqaq Al-Haqq, late Mara’shi, v 22, p 296-300

Allamah “Amini” the author of the lasting and valuable work named “Al-Ghadir” quotes this hadith from different resources of Sunni such as: “musnad Ahmad” and “Sahabis’ virtues” from “Beihaqi” and “Manaqib” from Kharazmi”, and proves Ali’s [AS] superiority and stamps of approval on the validity of this Hadith.

1 - أخرج إمام الحنابلة أحمد عن عبد الرزاق بإسناده المذكور بلفظ : من أراد أن ينظر إلي آدم في علمه ، وإلي نوح في فهمه ، وإلي إبراهيم في خلقه ، وإلي موسي في مناجاته ، وإلي عيسي في سنته ، وإلي محمد في تمامه وكماله ، فلينظر إلي هذا الرجل المقبل . فتطاول الناس فإذا هم بعلي بن أبي طالب كأنما ينقلع من صبب ، و ينحط من جبل.

And as well as some of Sunni’s figures have quoted this narrative in their books with similar words and sometimes with little change such as: “Abu-Bakr Ahmad ibn Hasan Beihaqi” in “Sahabis’ virtues” and “Kharazmi Maliki” in “Al-Manaqib” p 49, “Abu Salim Kamal Al-DDin Muhammad ibn Shafi’I” in “Matalib Al-Rasool”, “Ezzu Al-DDin ibn Abi Al-Hadid” in “interpretation of Nahj Al-Balagha”,v 2 p 236, Hafiz Abu Abdullah Ganji Shafi’I, in “ Kefayat Al-Talib” p 45, “Ibn Sabbagh Maliki” in “Al-fusool Al-Muhimmah”, v p 21, “Sayed Mahmud Alusi”, and Sayed Ahmad Qadin Khani, in “Hedayat Al-Martab” p 146

Al-Allamah “Amini”, Al-Ghadi, v 30, p 355-360

Result and Summery:

God’s attestation to the purification of Prophet’s [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)] dynasty specially commander of faithful [AS] And getting the title of Prophet’s soul which is the best spiritual position for Ali [AS] and the famous Hadith of “Ashbah” in which superb and high traits of prophets [AS] like: “Adam”, “Noah”, “Muses”, “Isa”, “Abraham” [AS]…  are written and commander of faithful [AS] is introduced as the one who is the sign of these great traits, all these privileges prove Ali’s [AS] superiority over all prophets [AS] except prophet Muhammad [(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)].

Wa Salaam

[realizm]

Prophet Muhammad (sawas) exalted the virtues of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) with the disclaimer that he was not a prophet. 

Why the need to rank him higher and better than the previous prophets. 

What do we gain from this, I don't know. To each his own. 

[Ethics]

Because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) elevates and chooses some over others. He does what He wills. Are you questioning Allah's knowledge and decisions? Or are you jealous?

God chose (and gave distinction to) Adam, Noah, the family of Abraham, and Imran over all the people of the world.

 

Allah grants His authority to whom He pleases. Allah cares for all and He knows all things.”(Qur’an 2:247)

They are those whom Allah has blessed among the prophets and the verifiers, the martyrs and the righteous. (Qur’an 4:69)

 

Or are they jealous of those men because of that which Allah has bestowed upon them in His bounty? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim’s children the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom. So of them is he who believes in him, and of them is he who turns away from him, and hell is sufficient to burn. (Qur’an 4:54)

Edited June 14 by Ethics

[Cool]

On 6/14/2023 at 2:32 PM, realizm said:

Why the need to rank him higher and better than the previous prophets. 

This is not said out of any need, it is the truth as mentioned in the OP:

On 6/14/2023 at 10:17 AM, Ethics said:

getting the title of Prophet’s soul which is the best spiritual position for Ali [AS]

The title "نفس رسول" is not coined by any famous poet rather this title comes from the verse of Mubahila i.e., from Quran. 

So when Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is superior to every prophet and is سيد الانبياء in his status, his pure نفس holds the same status. 

Another way to see this fact is by considering your own opinion if you see your offspring & grand childs being steps ahead of you in knowledge & taqwa. I think you will feel the pride just like the teacher when he sees his students move well ahead of him in knowledge. 

So Imam Ali (عليه السلام) would appear as فخر انبياء if we look at him with that angle.

Wassalam!!

[realizm]

On 6/14/2023 at 5:01 PM, Ethics said:

Are you questioning Allah's knowledge and decisions?

I am not. But it seems you do, with your weird tendency to always extrapolate Allah's words, as if Qur'an was not enough to you. 

On 6/14/2023 at 5:01 PM, Ethics said:

God chose (and gave distinction to) Adam, Noah, the family of Abraham, and Imran over all the people of the world.

Ironically you quoted a verse where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) shows no distinction between those He favoured most : they are all in a same category, which is above the rest.

That is not sufficient to you. You still need to put Imam Ali (عليه السلام) above all of them, as if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgot to tell it Himself and you have this mission to tell the world. 

And then you have the nerve to ask me if I question Allah's knowledge. No, brother, I question your knowledge.

I do believe Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is more important to us than all Prophets before, since in order to be the best ummah, Allah told us to obey him. It is part of our creed.

But trying to make the Qur'an say what it does not say - that Ali is better than Idriss, Yunus or Dhul Kifl - is not. 

[realizm]

10 hours ago, Cool said:

So when Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is superior to every prophet and is سيد الانبياء in his status, his pure نفس holds the same status

According to Qur'an, it is a trait of the Mo'min not to differentiate between the Messengers : they are all of the same veracity.

وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ

 

Edited June 15 by realizm

[Ethics]

1 hour ago, realizm said:

Ironically you quoted a verse where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) shows no distinction between those He favoured most : they are all in a same category, which is above the rest.

Thanks for proving my point. Clearly anyone with a single ounce of intellect can see Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has favored and chosen some over others. BTW you wont guess which lineage is Prophet Muhammad (عليه السلام) and with that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) from

1 hour ago, realizm said:

You still need to put Imam Ali (عليه السلام) above all of them, as if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgot to tell it Himself and you have this mission to tell the world. 

Everything I have posted is through quran which is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly, and Muhammad (عليه السلام) which is once again divine authority.

1 hour ago, realizm said:

And then you have the nerve to ask me if I question Allah's knowledge. No, brother, I question your knowledge.

I love the beauty of the quran that clearly exposes you and directly calls people like you out. SubhanAllah.

“And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs”, (28:68)

Allah grants His authority to whom He pleases. Allah cares for all and He knows all things.”(Qur’an 2:247)
They are those whom Allah has blessed among the prophets and the verifiers, the martyrs and the righteous. (Qur’an 4:69)

Or are they jealous of those men because of that which Allah has bestowed upon them in His bounty? But indeed We have given to Ibrahim’s children the Book and the wisdom, and We have given them a grand kingdom. So of them is he who believes in him, and of them is he who turns away from him, and hell is sufficient to burn. (Qur’an 4:54)

 

I bet this gets you mad, that Imamate as a position is higher than prophethood.

“And when his Lord tried  Prophet Ibrahim with commands, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam for mankind. (2:124)

 

1 hour ago, realizm said:

I do believe Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is more important to us than all Prophets before, since in order to be the best ummah, Allah told us to obey him. It is part of our creed.

1 hour ago, realizm said:

But trying to make the Qur'an say what it does not say - that Ali is better than Idriss, Yunus or Dhul Kifl - is not. 

That makes no sense. You are contradicting your own initial statement. Why would Imam Ali be more important to you if they are all the same? In order to be the best ummah? I am sure every ummah since the time of Adam was of similar fashion. You have some weird interpretation and understanding of the quran. I question what kind of shia, if shia, are you. I would love to know on what evidence and reasoning you think Idriss, Yunus, or Dhul Kifl is higher in status and important than Ali (عليه السلام)?

Edited June 15 by Ethics

[Ethics]

50 minutes ago, realizm said:

According to Qur'an, it is a trait of the Mo'min not to differentiate between the Messengers : they are all of the same veracity.

وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ

 

Oh brother, you need to work on your quranic understanding and islamic fundamentals...

Do you know who the verse is addressing? Do you know what the chapter is about and the verses that come before and after it?

Let me give you a hint, who are the believers that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) talks about, and who is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) generally referring to as the disbelievers? Lets say the ones that took SOME prophets, REJECTED some prophets, and even TOOK some prophets as Gods...

Ding ding ding time is up, its talking about groups like christians and jews, who made distinctions between prophets and messengers as in REJECTED them, disobeyed them, and even took some as Gods. This is not talking about status or honor cause clearly, otherwise God would be contradicting Himself, as mentioned in the quran, as I have proved many times. Do you think messengers are the same as prophets? How about Imams? Do you think their duties and objectives are the same? Do you think Prophet Adam (عليه السلام) is the same as Prophet Muhammad (عليه السلام)?

Your issue lies in this.. That is why you cannot accept the quranic proof and God's words of honoring and raising Imam Ali (عليه السلام) over all the prophets except Muhammad (عليه السلام) because you do not understand your own faith and ideology... Most importantly, the holy quran.

Edited June 15 by Ethics

[Qa'im]

 

[Cool]

5 hours ago, realizm said:

According to Qur'an, it is a trait of the Mo'min not to differentiate between the Messengers : they are all of the same veracity.

Salam Brother!

What would you say about this verse:

 

تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ

2:253 Some of these apostles have We endowed more highly than others: 

Obviously, we believe that all Prophets (peace be upon them) are from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) but not everyone of them is امام الانبياء. 

6 hours ago, realizm said:

 I do believe Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is more important to us than all Prophets before, since in order to be the best ummah, Allah told us to obey him. It is part of our creed.

But trying to make the Qur'an say what it does not say - that Ali is better than Idriss, Yunus or Dhul Kifl - is not. 

It is infact about the very being of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), so yes he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is superior to every Prophet (peace be upon them) in status.

And when we say he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is superior to every Prophet (peace be upon them), this saying too has its roots in Quran & Hadith. 

If you look Ali (عليه السلام) through his special virtue i.e., nafs e rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), that would make it clear to you. And that would also make it clear to you as to why Jesus (عليه السلام) will offer salah under the Imamate of Imam Mehdi (ajft). The "minniyat" of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is not just a symbolic thing brother, it holds the weight. 

[layman]

7 hours ago, realizm said:

According to Qur'an, it is a trait of the Mo'min not to differentiate between the Messengers : they are all of the same veracity.

وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ

 

Salam,

This is my understanding:  I use an analogy to make it easy for me to express myself.

"All Messengers are stars; however the brightness of each star may differ."

All messengers are like stars and each messenger may possess different degrees of brightness or prominence in their respective roles. I believe this analogy can help illustrate the concept of unity among the messengers while acknowledging their unique qualities and contributions.

The stars represent the messengers, symbolizing their significance, guidance, and illumination in guiding humanity towards the path of righteousness. Just as stars shine and provide light, the messengers bring divine knowledge and enlightenment to their communities.

The varying brightness of the stars in the analogy can be seen as a reflection of the distinct roles, missions, and levels of impact that each messenger had in their respective times and places. Some messengers may have had a more prominent presence, while others may have had a more localized or specific role. However, despite their differing levels of brightness, all messengers share the common purpose of delivering the message of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and guiding people towards Him.

This analogy helps emphasize the unity of the messengers while recognizing and appreciating their individual characteristics and contributions. 

 

Wallahualam.

"Ahlulbayts are 14 Brightest Stars"
 

 

[realizm]

12 hours ago, Ethics said:

Thanks for proving my point. Clearly anyone with a single ounce of intellect can see Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has favored and chosen some over others. BTW you wont guess which lineage is Prophet Muhammad (عليه السلام) and with that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) from

Up to you to turn it into a dispute, while we agree about the meaning of the aya. 

 

12 hours ago, Ethics said:

Everything I have posted is through quran which is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly, and Muhammad (عليه السلام) which is once again divine authority.

Please prove from the Qur'an, a clear ayat saying that Allah said Rusul are inferior to Muhammad (sawas). I am curious to see if you are actually certain about which Rusul were superior to which. 

12 hours ago, Ethics said:

I bet this gets you mad, that Imamate as a position is higher than prophethood

I already stated why I considered Imamate of the last ummah superior to previous authorities, but I guess you would be pleased to see me 'mad'. You seem to take religious talk as a permanent fight, which is up to you again. But you should definitely check your Ethics because they are not that good, and people told you this before. 

12 hours ago, Ethics said:

That makes no sense. You are contradicting your own initial statement. Why would Imam Ali be more important to you if they are all the same? In order to be the best ummah?

Yes precisely, since we have received the final message which told us to obey our Prophet (sawas) and A'imma. That does not mean the umum and messengers before us were less good, less intelligent. 

12 hours ago, Ethics said:

I question what kind of shia, if shia, are you

I don't care about what you can think about me, please question first who you are and what weight your judgement holds here. 

 

12 hours ago, Ethics said:

. I would love to know on what evidence and reasoning you think Idriss, Yunus, or Dhul Kifl is higher in status and important than Ali (عليه السلام)?

A great example of how you cannot understand and hold a sound dialogue. By saying that you should not say 'A is higher than B or C', I consider it clear that I will not allow myself to say B or C is smarter. But let's put it on my lack of writing skills. 

11 hours ago, Ethics said:

Oh brother, you need to work on your quranic understanding and islamic fundamentals...

Oh right? 

11 hours ago, Ethics said:

Let me give you a hint, who are the believers that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) talks about, and who is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) generally referring to as the disbelievers? Lets say the ones that took SOME prophets, REJECTED some prophets, and even TOOK some prophets as Gods...

I am curious to see were you saw reference to Jews rejecting Isa (عليه السلام) or Christians taking him as a god in the context of the Surah ?  

It talks about a series of Prophets and Messengers, some of which were given high status, then lowered. If you read the whole surah, and not just the three or four ayats around, you would understand the following, quoted by brother Cool. 

6 hours ago, Cool said:

What would you say about this verse:

 

تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ

It comes right after (تلك) the story of Talut which was granted the highest status (Leading Bani Israel with `ilm, so we're potentially talking Imamate here but not sure 100%) , and then was taken off his power to Dawud (عليه السلام) because he and the people with him disobeyed Allah when they were supposed to struggle in His way against Goliath. 

That's how we should understand the meaning of the ending ayats of the surah :

آمَنَ الرَّسُولُ بِمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِ مِن رَّبِّهِ وَالْمُؤْمِنُونَ ۚ كُلٌّ آمَنَ بِاللَّهِ وَمَلَائِكَتِهِ وَكُتُبِهِ وَرُسُلِهِ لَا نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّن رُّسُلِهِ ۚ وَقَالُوا سَمِعْنَا وَأَطَعْنَا ۖ غُفْرَانَكَ رَبَّنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ 

That when a command comes from a Rasul, we should take Allah's word because sometimes he favours one -Dawud- over another -Talut- and we shall not say this one is better than this one (نفرق), because at the end, the choice is to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  And we shall obey. 

I obey -at least I try to -and I do not try to extrapolate. I feel much safer like that. 

11 hours ago, Ethics said:

Ding ding ding time is up

You're right. Have a blessed Friday. 

6 hours ago, Cool said:

If you look Ali (عليه السلام) through his special virtue i.e., nafs e rasool (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), that would make it clear to you. And that would also make it clear to you as to why Jesus (عليه السلام) will offer salah under the Imamate of Imam Mehdi (ajft). The "minniyat" of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is not just a symbolic thing brother, it holds the weight

I do believe in this as a Shia because my affinities and understanding of the Qur'an make me believe that Ahl el Beit is higher and thus I allow myself to rely on the ahadith which go hand in hand with the Qur'an, but I would not allow mmyself to 'stuff words in the Qur'an's mouth' because it is too sacred. 

 

 

[Ethics]

5 hours ago, realizm said:

Please prove from the Qur'an, a clear ayat saying that Allah said Rusul are inferior to Muhammad (sawas). I am curious to see if you are actually certain about which Rusul were superior to which. 

Wait wait wait, dont tell me you think Prophet Muhammad (عليه السلام) was just a prophet and not a Rasul? How much are you confused? Do you know the difference between a Prophet and a Messenger? You have to be a quranist just trolling as a shia...there is no way you are saying these things.. Not everything is written word by word in the quran, but there is enough quranic evidence to clearly deduce these absolute truths. I am not going to explain every basic and simple definitions for you, just so you deny and reject it.

Prophet Muhammad (عليه السلام) was the final prophet and messenger of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). With him the religion was completed. He was not sent for a people, but for mankind.. Of course his position can be compared none that came before him. Even the messengers before him came for a specific group of people: Moses -> Jews, Jesus -> Christians and even then the religion was not complete. The honor of the deen of Allah, Al Islam was bestowed upon Muhammad (عليه السلام).

"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my bounty upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion.”(Qur’an 5:3)

 

Not only that but Prophet Muhammad (عليه السلام) is not only commanded to be blessed by angels and people, but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Himself has sent His blessings upon him. Which other divinely chosen being has Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ever done such a command for, prove to me.

Lo! Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation. (33:56)

“Say, O mankind, I am the Messenger of God to you all, of Him Whose is the kingdom of the heavens and the Earth….” 7:158

“He is the One Who sent His Messenger with the guidance and the true religion, to make it outweigh all other religions though the polytheists may be averse.” 9:33; 61:9 and 48:28.

 

5 hours ago, realizm said:

Yes precisely, since we have received the final message which told us to obey our Prophet (sawas) and A'imma. That does not mean the umum and messengers before us were less good, less intelligent. 

You seem to be putting words in my mouth. Or I guess in this case ideas in your head. I never claimed the messengers and prophets were less good or less intelligent. They were perfect, and completed their duty perfectly. However, there is a difference of significance between their given duties and status. There is also a difference in what knowledge they were given to by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (intellect and knowledge is two different things!) Obviously humanity was not at the level at which it is today, I pray to Allah you at least grasp this fact. Hence, Islam, and each peoples understanding was not in par with that of Islam. That is why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has made some messengers, some prophets, and some for specific people. I doubt you will understand this simple analogy, but I will do it for the sake of other readers.

 

A teacher teaching high school is not the same as a teacher teaching university. Both teachers do their duties perfectly, but their mission and status, has their own significance.

 

5 hours ago, realizm said:

A great example of how you cannot understand and hold a sound dialogue. By saying that you should not say 'A is higher than B or C', I consider it clear that I will not allow myself to say B or C is smarter. But let's put it on my lack of writing skills. 

Huh? I barely understood what you are even saying here. Again, I already provided proof from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). You can keep following Allah knows what ideology or religion you fall under. You are clearly, rejecting and making up your own mental gymnastics.. Or maybe you have not read the quran or are reading a different book?

 

Your Lord knows best all those in the heavens and the earth. And We have surely favoured some prophets above others, and to David We gave the Psalms.(17:55)

We have chosen some of those messengers above others. Allah spoke directly to some, and raised some high in rank.(2:253)

"And when  Prophet Abraham was tested by his Lord with certain commands and he fulfilled them. Then He said: Lo! I appoint you an Imam for mankind.”(Qur’an 2:124).

 

5 hours ago, realizm said:

I am curious to see were you saw reference to Jews rejecting Isa (عليه السلام) or Christians taking him as a god in the context of the Surah ?  

R E A D I N G C O M P R E H E N S I O N

Maybe read the quran sometime? The whole chapter begins for example with how the children of israel rejected and played with the commands/signs of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), then it leads back to the revelations (the verse being discussed) sent to the followers and believers of Muhammad (عليه السلام) and what not to do, that those before them did in terms of rejection...

 

And (remember) when We made a covenant with the Children of Israel, (saying): Worship none save Allah (only), and be good to parents and to kindred and to orphans and the needy, and speak kindly to mankind; and establish worship and pay the poor-due. Then, after that, ye slid back, save a few of you, being averse.

And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?

 

5 hours ago, realizm said:

It talks about a series of Prophets and Messengers, some of which were given high status, then lowered. If you read the whole surah, and not just the three or four ayats around, you would understand the following, quoted by brother Cool. 

You confuse me more with every single comment. Huh? Some prophets and messengers were given high status? I thought they were all the same according to you. I thought there is no status or one better than the other??? Also what they were given high status but then God lowered them? First time hearing that from a self proclaimed muslim, definitely not shia. No shia believes prophets or messengers were ever given status and then lowered. Would love to see your contradictory evidence for this weird claim.

Edited June 16 by Ethics

[Ethics]

8 hours ago, realizm said:

You're right. Have a blessed Friday. 

 

Thank you! You too brother/sister.

[realizm]

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

Wait wait wait, dont tell me you think Prophet Muhammad (عليه السلام) was just a prophet and not a Rasul? How much are you confused? Do you know the difference between a Prophet and a Messenger?

Please quote my words where I said such a thing. Is it that you have so much bias against me, or do you just want to make me look like a fool ?

Now relax and think : what if I ask you to quote me from the Qur'an that Rasulullah Muhammad (sawas) is higher in status that Rasulullah Musa (عليه السلام). How does that mean I don't know the difference between a Nabi and a Rasul ? It's just not my point, so please stop trying to school me on such basic stuff brother. 

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

You have to be a quranist just trolling as a shia...

It doesn't take a Quranist to ponder over the Qur'an. 

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

but there is enough quranic evidence to clearly deduce these absolute truths. I am not going to explain every basic and simple definitions for you, just so you deny and reject it.

In a Kitab which is Mubin, I wonder what could be more of a basic, simple and absolute proof than clear words saying 'Your Rasul is better than Musa was'. 

So do not worry, I am a logical person and I will not bother asking you, since I know you could only come with so called basic proofs, that actually would not be.

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

Moses -> Jews, Jesus -> Christians

Wow. I am the one who does not understand basic principles ? Allow me to correct you

Moses -> Bani Israil

Jesus -> Bani Israil

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

and even then the religion was not complete. The honor of the deen of Allah, Al Islam was bestowed upon Muhammad (عليه السلام).

I wonder how can you reconcile this with ayats saying that Al Islam already was the religion of Ibrahim. Or that Jesus Apostles were Muslims. 

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

"Today I have perfected your religion and completed my bounty upon you, and I was satisfied that Islam be your religion.”(Qur’an 5:3)

The fact that the religion was perfected during Prophethood of Muhammad (sawas) does not mean he is superior. Matter of fact, by saying this you imply that Muhammad has a role in this, while it's just that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chose him, just like he chose ones before him. It's ascribing some of Allah's power to the Prophet, which is just not correct. 

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

Lo! Allah and His angels shower blessings on the Prophet. O ye who believe! Ask blessings on him and salute him with a worthy salutation. (33:56)

We recite this verse at least 3 times a day. Ever noticed how word used in this verse is Nabi, not Rasul. You here implied that Allah only sent his blessing on a Nabi, so why would Rusul be superior to Nabiyin? 

Something is not coherent. 

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

Which other divinely chosen being has Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) ever done such a command for, prove to me.

What is the logic in this? It is certainly not for me to prove to you something that I never said happened or did not happen.

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

You seem to be putting words in my mouth. Or I guess in this case ideas in your head. I never claimed the messengers and prophets were less good or less intelligent. They were perfect, and completed their duty perfectly.

Being better in the eyes of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is having the best piety. So affirming Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is better means he had a better piety than all Prophets. Maybe right, nothing proves the contrary but where do you get this from exactly and how can you be so sure about that ? 

 

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

I doubt you will understand this simple analogy, but I will do it for the sake of other readers.

 

A teacher teaching high school is not the same as a teacher teaching university. Both teachers do their duties perfectly, but their mission and status, has their own significance.

And here you come again, finally, with your down to earth, and I am sorry to say, not so smart analogies.

The way you brought this brother, you are implying that a Uni professor could not teach in High school. 

For the sake of your analogy, let's say Imam Ali and Moses are both top notch PhDs, but that one teaches to Masters and the other to Doctorate. Do you think it makes one more valuable than the other knowledge or skill wise? 

I bet the reader will now be aligned with the meaning of the analogy

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

R E A D I N G C O M P R E H E N S I O N

I can sense condescension here, ironically. 

 

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

Maybe read the quran sometime?

Not much as I should, but I do. 

 

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

The whole chapter begins for example

This is not correct grammar. A 'whole' chapter cannot 'begin'. You try to emphasize the void in your speech. 

Like it or not, you can go back more than 100 verses backwards before the aforementioned verse, it is not about Christians or Jews as you claimed

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

And (remember) when We made a covenant with the Children of Israel, (saying): Worship none save Allah (only), and be good to parents and to kindred and to orphans and the needy, and speak kindly to mankind; and establish worship and pay the poor-due. Then, after that, ye slid back, save a few of you, being averse.

And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy spirit. Is it ever so, that, when there cometh unto you a messenger (from Allah) with that which ye yourselves desire not, ye grow arrogant, and some ye disbelieve and some ye slay?

As I said, this is verse 87. We are talking about verse 253. Same context, are you sure? 

 

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

You confuse me more with every single comment. Huh? Some prophets and messengers were given high status? I thought they were all the same according to you. I thought there is no status or one better than the other??

You are confused you are stuck in a matrix of copy-paste with no personal reasoning, allowing you to understand my point : it is not to us to decide who is 'better', and the importance of the mission is not a sign of being BETTER.

This is your standards, not Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

Otherwise, the Mission of Moses, who Saw Allah, confronted a tyrant, dismissed magicians, made his people escape, would make in all honesty, Moses better than Muhammad. 

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

Also what they were given high status but then God lowered them?.

 

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

First time hearing that from a self proclaimed muslim, definitely not shia.

There's a first time for everything. 

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

No shia believes prophets or messengers were ever given status and then lowered. Would love to see your contradictory evidence for this weird claim.

I gave the example of Dawud and Talut for the sake of logic, you just seemed to have ditched it, by convenience maybe? 

 

See, I am not dodging any of your answers here. I took many time to reply, because it's the Qur'an we are talking about here, and I consider it is worth the effort. At least you will not accuse me of fleeing like you often do. 

[Ethics]

I hope you actually provided evidence and answers to my questions and claims, otherwise I am pretty much done discussing these matters with you. There is no point, when you do not understand/contradict the basics of your own faith you "claim" to follow.

 

1 hour ago, realizm said:

Wow. I am the one who does not understand basic principles ? Allow me to correct you

Moses -> Bani Israil

Jesus -> Bani Israil

Why am I even trying to teach you when you do not even understand how the quran describes the people of moses and the people of jesus. This is such a waste of time from someone who is trying to argue as if they read the quran when they have no read anything clearly. Allow Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to correct you:

[5:78] Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of Dawood and Isa, son of Maryam; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit.

[5:79] They used not to forbid each other the hateful things (which) they did; certainly evil was that which they did.

[5:80] You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide.

[5:81] And had they believed in Allah and the prophet and what was revealed to him, they would not have taken them for friends but! Most of them are transgressors.

 

[3:65] O followers of the Book! Why do you dispute about Ibrahim, when the Taurat and the Injeel were not revealed till after him; do you not then understand?

[3:66] Behold! You are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know.

[3:69] A party of the followers of the Book desire that they should lead you astray, and they lead not astray but themselves, and they do not perceive.

[3:70] O followers of the Book! Why do you disbelieve in the communications of Allah while you witness (them)?

[3:71] O followers of the Book! Why do you confound the truth with the falsehood and hide the truth while you know?

[4:171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Maryam is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Maryam and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

[5:14] And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a coven- ant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, there- fore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.

[5:15] O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;

[5:18] And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults? Nay, you are mortals from among those whom He has created, He forgives whom He pleases and chastises whom He pleases; and Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, and to Him is the eventual coming.

[5:19] O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you explaining to you after a cessation of the (mission of the) messengers, lest you say: There came not to us a giver of good news or a warner, so in- deed there has come to you a giver of good news and a warner; and Allah has power over all things.

And when there came to them a messenger from Allah, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the Book threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if (it had been something) they did not know!

 

1 hour ago, realizm said:

I wonder how can you reconcile this with ayats saying that Al Islam already was the religion of Ibrahim. Or that Jesus Apostles were Muslims. 

So you are claiming Islam was already complete back then? That is so illogical I do not even know where to begin. I would love evidence of Allah calling the religion of Ibrahim Al-Islam. Or that Ibrahim's religion was complete, like Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said that for Muhammad (عليه السلام) that I have quoted above. Yes all prophets were muslims, because to be a muslim means submitting to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is correcting the jews and christians who try to argue and say that Ibrahim was of their kind. There is a difference between instituting and commanding the completion of a religion (Muhammad (عليه السلام)), and proclaiming a divinely chosen being as one who submits to Allah aka a muslim.

 

1 hour ago, realizm said:

The fact that the religion was perfected during Prophethood of Muhammad (sawas) does not mean he is superior. Matter of fact, by saying this you imply that Muhammad has a role in this, while it's just that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chose him, just like he chose ones before him. It's ascribing some of Allah's power to the Prophet, which is just not correct. 

Bro Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) even talks about the superiority of Mary and she was neither a prophet nor a messenger!

And when the angels said, ‘O Mary, Allah has chosen you and purified you, and He has chosen you above the world’s women.

I am not going to bother anymore trying to correct every single misconstrued ideology you seem to possess. Your ideology is so farfetched and inconsistent. And to make things worse your common sense and rationale is so broken. Do the verses and proofs I have posted have no where to go, since it seems like your brain does not exist. You do realize Prophet Muhammad has free will, he was not some robot, hence God chose Him for his role. Ascribing Allah's power??? PLEASE READ THE QURAN PLEAAASE!

Say: O Allah! Master of authority! You give authority to whomsoever You please and take it away from whomsoever You please" (Qur’an, 3:26).

Surely Allah bestows sustenance, the Lord of Power, the Strong One. (51:58)

Then those that regulate the affair (on behalf of and according to the instructions of Allah)... (79:5) ... and you did not smite them when you smote (the, the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote (them). (8:17)

"No intercession avails with Him except for him whom He permits" (Qur’an, 34:23).

All praise belongs to Allah, originator of the heavens and the earth, maker of the angels [His] messengers, possessing wings, two, three or four [of them]. He adds to the creation whatever He wishes. Indeed Allah has power over all things. 

“The Knower of the Unseen (Allah) so then He does not make known what is hidden to a single person except those whom He is pleased with from amongst His Messengers.” (72:26).

 

1 hour ago, realizm said:

We recite this verse at least 3 times a day. Ever noticed how word used in this verse is Nabi, not Rasul. You here implied that Allah only sent his blessing on a Nabi, so why would Rusul be superior to Nabiyin? 

Something is not coherent. 

Huh? Dont play silly games, it just makes you seem like you are so inadequate, you are trying to use anything to make something up. I said Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has only bestowed this magnanimous blessing on one human being in existence, Muhammad (عليه السلام), whom was both a prophet and a messenger. It does not matter what or how you address him, it makes no difference. Again, go back read the quran, and learn what the difference between a prophet and a messenger is. Hint, every messenger is a prophet.

 

1 hour ago, realizm said:

What is the logic in this? It is certainly not for me to prove to you something that I never said happened or did not happen.

I knew it. Thank you =)

 

1 hour ago, realizm said:

Being better in the eyes of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is having the best piety. So affirming Imam Ali (عليه السلام) is better means he had a better piety than all Prophets. Maybe right, nothing proves the contrary but where do you get this from exactly and how can you be so sure about that ? 

Red: That is for people who proclaim to be believers, aka followers of Allah and His chosen representatives.

Black: Again, you need to go back and question your own faith if you are agnostic or quranist or whatever, you are definitely not a Shia 12 Imami. Shia Imami's believe Allah is absolute, and His knowledge and His plan is perfect, and those that He chooses and sends as guides MUST be perfect. Otherwise that is a contradiction of God's justice. Therefore, ALL prophets, messengers, angels, and those whom He has chosen to do His tasks, and lead mankind are with perfect piety, for they represent the absolute. Their piety, God consciousness, is not what gives them their status and rank between the other representatives, it is why Allah has chosen them and what for, and what has He distinctively bestowed upon that makes them different from all the other representatives He has chosen.

 

1 hour ago, realizm said:

The way you brought this brother, you are implying that a Uni professor could not teach in High school. 

For the sake of your analogy, let's say Imam Ali and Moses are both top notch PhDs, but that one teaches to Masters and the other to Doctorate. Do you think it makes one more valuable than the other knowledge or skill wise? 

I bet the reader will now be aligned with the meaning of the analogy

Oh God this is embarrassing.. Then again you have proved your reading comprehension is horrible, so I am not surprised.

Red: You implied that, by thinking that, and making it as what you derived in your head just then. That is clearly not the point of the analogy. Oh God, if you cannot understand basic analogies DOOOMED this is a a waste cause...

Black: I used highschool and university to make the analogy more simple for you to grasp and you ended up confusing yourself even more LOL.

My point one was describing the position of prophet-hood and messenger-ship because you have no clue as what is the difference between them, and two that both are teachers, that are TASKED with different positions and goals. Not that one or the other has higher or lower intellect, because you cannot infer that unless you make your own assumption, which you keep incorrectly doing. You are just projecting your own mistaken ideology. A teacher can teach at a middle school and still be the same intellectually with a PHD professor! Get that? This is so painful, it is like I am trying to teach you ABC's...Ya Allah help me...

 

1 hour ago, realizm said:

Like it or not, you can go back more than 100 verses backwards before the aforementioned verse, it is not about Christians or Jews as you claimed

My guy I quoted verses from the chapter itself that was literally addressing the christians and jews directly LOL what?!

 

1 hour ago, realizm said:

As I said, this is verse 87. We are talking about verse 253. Same context, are you sure? 

You have to be trolling there is no way... I should just put you on an ignore list so I do not lose any braincells...

 

1 hour ago, realizm said:

Otherwise, the Mission of Moses, who Saw Allah, confronted a tyrant, dismissed magicians, made his people escape, would make in all honesty, Moses better than Muhammad. 

Moses did not see God what? I cannot take anything you say serious anymore LOL Astagfirullah. Are you are quranist or wahabi that believes in Anthropomorphism like God sits on a throne because you think the allegorical verses are literal? Yikes...

[7:143] And when Musa came at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said: My Lord! Show me (Thyself), so that I may look upon Thee. He said: You cannot (bear to) see Me but look at the mountain, if it remains firm in its place, then will you see Me; but when his

Lord manifested His glory to the mountain He made it crumble and Musa fell down in a swoon; then when he recovered, he said: Glory be to Thee, I turn to Thee, and I am the first of the believers.

[7:144] He said: O Musa! Surely I have chosen you above the people with My messages and with My words, therefore take hold of what I give to you and be of the grateful ones.

You are really trying to say Moses (عليه السلام) mission was more severe and more challenging then prophet Muhammad (عليه السلام)??! LOL okay... Also Prophet Muhammad was sent for all of mankind, not Moses. Just by that simple fact, makes Prophet Muhammad superior.

 

1 hour ago, realizm said:

See, I am not dodging any of your answers here. I took many time to reply, because it's the Qur'an we are talking about here, and I consider it is worth the effort. At least you will not accuse me of fleeing like you often do. 

Most of your responses were not responding to anything, just you making a comment. Most of the points I raised or questions I asked, there was no answers for. Anyone feel free to respond again if you like, or not, if you dont like. With due respect, although probably too late for this, I am done discussing this topic with you. Its too much misinformation and lack of understanding. Other brothers can try if they like.

Edited June 16 by Ethics

[realizm]

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

Why am I even trying to teach you

You are not teaching me anything my dear. You said an absurdity which I will post again :

7 hours ago, Ethics said:

Even the messengers before him came for a specific group of people: Moses -> Jews, Jesus -> Christians

Which I corrected saying that those two Prophets came for Bani Isra'il, and that Allah tends to abhor people classifying  themselves as Jews or Christians. 

Then you try to drown the fish with another lengthy copy paste, this time from verses that have nothing to do with our discussion, since they do not confirm anything of your version of 'Moses is for Jews and Jesus for Christians'. 

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

Allow Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to correct you:

[5:78] Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of Dawood and Isa, son of Maryam; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit.

[5:79] They used not to forbid each other the hateful things (which) they did; certainly evil was that which they did.

[5:80] You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide.

[5:81] And had they believed in Allah and the prophet and what was revealed to him, they would not have taken them for friends but! Most of them are transgressors.

 

[3:65] O followers of the Book! Why do you dispute about Ibrahim, when the Taurat and the Injeel were not revealed till after him; do you not then understand?

[3:66] Behold! You are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know.

[3:69] A party of the followers of the Book desire that they should lead you astray, and they lead not astray but themselves, and they do not perceive.

[3:70] O followers of the Book! Why do you disbelieve in the communications of Allah while you witness (them)?

[3:71] O followers of the Book! Why do you confound the truth with the falsehood and hide the truth while you know?

[4:171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Maryam is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Maryam and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

[5:14] And with those who say, We are Christians, We made a coven- ant, but they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of, there- fore We excited among them enmity and hatred to the day of resurrection; and Allah will inform them of what they did.

[5:15] O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you making clear to you much of what you concealed of the Book and passing over much; indeed, there has come to you light and a clear Book from Allah;

[5:18] And the Jews and the Christians say: We are the sons of Allah and His beloved ones. Say: Why does He then chastise you for your faults? Nay, you are mortals from among those whom He has created, He forgives whom He pleases and chastises whom He pleases; and Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth and what is between them, and to Him is the eventual coming.

[5:19] O followers of the Book! indeed Our Messenger has come to you explaining to you after a cessation of the (mission of the) messengers, lest you say: There came not to us a giver of good news or a warner, so in- deed there has come to you a giver of good news and a warner; and Allah has power over all things.

And when there came to them a messenger from Allah, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the Book threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if (it had been something) they did not know

 

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

So you are claiming Islam was already complete back then? That is so illogical I do not even know where to begin. I would love evidence of Allah calling the religion of Ibrahim Al-Islam. Or that Ibrahim's religion was complete, like Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said that for Muhammad (عليه السلام) that I have quoted above

Allow me to correct myself, religion of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) was that of the Hanif, the same name we quote to defend Abu Talib (عليه السلام) and his status in shia/sunni debates. 

Hanif, a religion which more or less had all the tenants of our Islam : usul and furu. I am persuaded this will now equate to Islam to you. 

Was it perfect ? Maybe. And maybe Allah (set) had to perfect the religion again with Muhammad (sawas) because of all the distortions and corruptions that came in between. 

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

Yes all prophets were muslims, because to be a muslim means submitting to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is correcting the jews and christians who try to argue and say that Ibrahim was of their kind.

See, good to see we can agree sometimes. 

 

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

3 hours ago, realizm said:

The fact that the religion was perfected during Prophethood of Muhammad (sawas) does not mean he is superior. Matter of fact, by saying this you imply that Muhammad has a role in this, while it's just that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) chose him, just like he chose ones before him. It's ascribing some of Allah's power to the Prophet, which is just not correct. 

Bro Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) even talks about the superiority of Mary and she was neither a prophet nor a messenger!

And when the angels said, ‘O Mary, Allah has chosen you and purified you, and He has chosen you above the world’s women

Exactly, He (عليه السلام) choses. Another point I never denied and you try to dispute about. 

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

Your ideology is so farfetched and inconsistent. And to make things worse your common sense and rationale is so broken. Do the verses and proofs I have posted have no where to go, since it seems like your brain does not exist

Verbal attacks, very classy. Now calm down will you ? 

I like how you insulted my brain, then  right after you said

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

You do realize Prophet Muhammad has free will, he was not some robot

Just before quoting a clear verse saying the Prophet does not act on his own : 

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

and you did not smite them when you smote (the, the enemy), but it was Allah Who smote (them). (8:17)

Not sure where you are coming from anyway.... This is so contradictory. 

 

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

 

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

Huh? Dont play silly games, it just makes you seem like you are so inadequate, you are trying to use anything to make something up. I said Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has only bestowed this magnanimous blessing on one human being in existence, Muhammad (عليه السلام), whom was both a prophet and a messenger. It does not matter what or how you address him, it makes no difference. Again, go back read the quran, and learn what the difference between a prophet and a messenger is. Hint, every messenger is a prophet.

I do not need your ridiculous hints. I have been reading about Islam long enough not to need user Ethics from Shiachat to give me the 101. 

Did I deny that every messenger is a prophet ? Did I ever mention that Nabi and Rasul was the same thing? Brother, you are just inventing things and trying to ridicule me with your inventions. 

I am showing from Qur'an that Allah and angels can send salutations on the basis of being a Nabi (indeed here, also a Rasul), so your claim that the Salawat never was done on anyone before is dubious, hence disputable. It is not a part of the shia creed either, I guess it is just you wanting to add more justification to your veneration of Ahl el Beit (عليه السلام). 

 

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

Shia Imami's believe Allah is absolute, and His knowledge and His plan is perfect, and those that He chooses and sends as guides MUST be perfect. Otherwise that is a contradiction of God's justice

Aware of the differences of opinion about `isma ? Consider me with the ones who do not think like you. That was not, and as far as I know, is still not a criterion for anathema. 

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

Oh God this is embarrassing.. Then again you have proved your reading comprehension is horrible, so I am not surprised.

Red: You implied that, by thinking that, and making it as what you derived in your head just then. That is clearly not the point of the analogy. Oh God, if you cannot understand basic analogies DOOOMED this is a a waste cause...

Are you using such annoying phrases to anger me out of the discussion? If so, understand is not working, I am not at that level. 

Now you, please try to comprehend that 'superiority' means 'better'. Superior paper, superior chocolate, superior implies better quality. 

You can use any twisted analogy, that you obviously cannot handle until the end but face it : 

-By saying 'Imam Ali is superior to Umar', you imply that he is better than Umar.

-But when you say he is superior to all prophets before, so here you only mean 'his mission has more merits than other prophets' or whatever ? You are just being hypocritical here. 

Seriously, what would be the point of your post if it's purpose was to say that 'Imam Ali's mission is more important for us than that of Moses'?? Make sure that we, in 2023, do not go around leaving our Islam and starting to follow Moses instead? This makes no sense whatsoever. 

No, what your OP was about, is proving Imam Ali is BETTER than everybody before - except Muhammad. Otherwise, that would be completely pointless - yet better for us all I guess. 

 

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

My guy I quoted verses from the chapter itself that was literally addressing the christians and jews directly LOL what?

 

A chapter itself which contains almost 300 verses, and you quoted the 100th, what are the chances it relates to the topic. Please quote them again to see if they are close to the 250th.

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

You have to be trolling there is no way... I should just put you on an ignore list so I do not lose any braincells...

 

That was mean... 

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

Moses did not see God what? I cannot take anything you say serious anymore LOL Astagfirullah. Are you are quranist or wahabi that believes in Anthropomorphism like God sits on a throne because you think the allegorical verses are literal? Yikes...

[7:143] And when Musa came at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said: My Lord! Show me (Thyself), so that I may look upon Thee. He said: You cannot (bear to) see Me but look at the mountain, if it remains firm in its place, then will you see Me; but when his

Lord manifested His glory to the mountain He made it crumble and Musa fell down in a swoon; then when he recovered, he said: Glory be to Thee, I turn to Thee, and I am the first of the believers.

[7:144] He said: O Musa! Surely I have chosen you above the people with My messages and with My words, therefore take hold of what I give to you and be of the grateful ones.

Believe me or not, I typed this too quickly. This block has several typo and grammar mistakes in it. I intended to write 'saw' and then forgot and when to something else, when I re read and wanted to edit, it was too late.

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

You are really trying to say Moses (عليه السلام) mission was more severe and more challenging then prophet Muhammad (عليه السلام)??! LOL okay... Also Prophet Muhammad was sent for all of mankind, not Moses. Just by that simple fact, makes Prophet Muhammad superior

I used an example to tell you that if we judged the superiority at the mission, then yes, in my humble and strictly personal opinion, yes Moses mission was harder than that of Muhammad's. I am sorry if that hurt your feelings. 

 

2 hours ago, Ethics said:

Most of your responses were not responding to anything, just you making a comment. Most of the points I raised or questions I asked, there was no answers for

I consider I replied as much as I could, but it seems your habit to always accuse your interlocutor of something.

Also understand I felt a bit frustrated by your lack of coherent replies here too. 

Edited June 16 by realizm

[Simple thinking]

Salam alaikum

If I'm not mistaken, a few scholars believe that the prophets (عليه السلام) are higher, thus it's not a big deal, but the majority believes that the imam (عليه السلام) is higher. 

The reason why imams (عليه السلام) are higher to other prophets except Rasulullah (SAWW) has nothing to do with position because Ibrahim (عليه السلام) was given the title "imam."

It is rather due to their knowledge. They were inheritors of the most knowledgeable man (Rasulullah saws) which makes them the most knowledgeable after him. 

 

5 - قال: أخبرني الحسين بن أحمد بن المغيرة  قال: أخبرني أبو محمد حيدر بن محمد السمرقندي قال: أخبرني أبو عمرو محمد بن عمرو الكشي قال: حدثنا حمدويه بن نصير قال: حدثنا يعقوب بن يزيد، عن ابن أبي عمير، عن ابن المغيرة قال: كنت أنا ويحيى بن عبد الله بن الحسن عند أبي الحسن عليه السلام فقال له يحيى، جعلت فداك إنهم يزعمون أنك تعلم الغيب، فقال: سبحان الله، ضع يدك على رأسي فوالله ما بقيت شعرة فيه و [لا] في جسدي إلا قامت، ثم قال: لا والله ما هي إلا وراثة عن رسول الله صلى الله عليه وآله . 

5. He said: I have been informed by al-Husayn ibn Ahmad ibn al-Mughairah, who reported from Abu Muhammad Haider ibn Muhammad al-Samarqandi, who reported from Abu Amru Muhammad ibn Amru al-Kashi, who reported from Hamdawayh ibn Naseer, who reported from Ya’qoob ibn Yazeed, who reported from Ibn Abi Umayr, who reported from Ibn al-Mughairah who said: Yahya ibn Abdullah ibn al-Hasan and I were with Abul Hasan, peace be upon him, and Yahya asked him: "May I be your ransom, they think that you have the knowledge of the unseen (Ilmul Ghaib)." He said: "Glory be to Allah! Place your hand over my head." When I did that, every hair in my head and on my body stood on its end. Then he said: "No, By Allah, it is nothing but what we have inherited from the Prophet (peace be upon him and his progeny)."

- https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/13/3/5/1

 

btw this is my layman understanding. 

[Ethics]

Thanks @Simple thinkingI understand we have plethora of hadiths signifying the magnanimous and grandoise status of Imams and Muhammad (عليه السلام) over all creatures, on the basis of their existence alone. My intention in this thread was to provide the evidence to Sunnis using their sources. But this user who claims to be a shia, tried to argue quranically that it is not the case which if you read their posts I am sure you were confused.Since even sunnis do not say such things about Muhammad (عليه السلام) .. but yes I could easily provide the user who claims to be a shia, these hadiths, but im sure if they cannot accept or understand the quran, they will reject the hadith. wa salaam

[Cool]

16 hours ago, realizm said:

It comes right after (تلك) the story of Talut which was granted the highest status (Leading Bani Israel with `ilm, so we're potentially talking Imamate here

 You must have analyzed the referred verse brother. If the word فضلنا not sufficient then you can cite another word درجات in the same verse:

 

تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ مِّنْهُم مَّن كَلَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَاتٍ

2:253 Some of these apostles have We endowed more highly than others: among them were such as.were spoken to by God [Himself], and some He has raised yet higher

You can also cite the verse where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentioning about Adam (عليه السلام):

وَلَقَدْ عَهِدْنَا إِلَى آدَمَ مِن قَبْلُ فَنَسِيَ وَلَمْ نَجِدْ لَهُ عَزْمًا

20:115 

So we have the concept of اولوالعزم Prophets. 

Now from the اولوالعزم Prophets, you can cite the story of Musa (عليه السلام) & Khizr (عليه السلام) in chapter 18. Musa (عليه السلام) belongs to the Ulil Azm Prophets while Khizr (عليه السلام) is introduced by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as His servant whom He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has granted mercy from Himself & knowledge as well. So that "Abd of Allah" (Khizr (عليه السلام)) saying to an Ulil Azm Prophet:

قَالَ إِنَّكَ لَنْ تَسْتَطِيعَ مَعِيَ صَبْرًا {67}

[Shakir 18:67] He said: Surely you cannot have patience with me

وَكَيْفَ تَصْبِرُ عَلَىٰ مَا لَمْ تُحِطْ بِهِ خُبْرًا {68}

[Shakir 18:68] And how can you have patience in that of which you have not got a comprehensive knowledge?

I can quote much more from Quran brother. My only advise to you is to give more time to Quran than what you are already giving. We need the Holy Quran for our guidance & steadfastness. 

Wassalam!!

[realizm]

3 hours ago, Cool said:

 You must have analyzed the referred verse brother. If the word فضلنا not sufficient then you can cite another word درجات in the same verse:

 

تِلْكَ الرُّسُلُ فَضَّلْنَا بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ مِّنْهُم مَّن كَلَّمَ اللّهُ وَرَفَعَ بَعْضَهُمْ دَرَجَاتٍ

2:253 Some of these apostles have We endowed more highly than others: among them were such as.were spoken to by God [Himself], and some He has raised yet higher

You can also cite the verse where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentioning about Adam (عليه السلام):

وَلَقَدْ عَهِدْنَا إِلَى آدَمَ مِن قَبْلُ فَنَسِيَ وَلَمْ نَجِدْ لَهُ عَزْمًا

20:115 

So we have the concept of اولوالعزم Prophets. 

Now from the اولوالعزم Prophets, you can cite the story of Musa (عليه السلام) & Khizr (عليه السلام) in chapter 18. Musa (عليه السلام) belongs to the Ulil Azm Prophets while Khizr (عليه السلام) is introduced by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as His servant whom He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has granted mercy from Himself & knowledge as well. So that "Abd of Allah" (Khizr (عليه السلام)) saying to an Ulil Azm Prophet:

قَالَ إِنَّكَ لَنْ تَسْتَطِيعَ مَعِيَ صَبْرًا {67}

[Shakir 18:67] He said: Surely you cannot have patience with me

وَكَيْفَ تَصْبِرُ عَلَىٰ مَا لَمْ تُحِطْ بِهِ خُبْرًا {68}

[Shakir 18:68] And how can you have patience in that of which you have not got a comprehensive knowledge?

I can quote much more from Quran brother. My only advise to you is to give more time to Quran than what you are already giving. We need the Holy Quran for our guidance & steadfastness. 

Wassalam!!

With all due respect brother, your post here does nor prove me wrong in any way. It only points the facts that even prophets or messengers that are commonly accepted as 'superior' can be surpassed. So the pseudo hierarchy that all of us claim to understand and defend is beyond anyone's understanding. 

What could you make you claim 100% that Muhammad (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or Imam Ali are superior to Khidr ? 

[realizm]

4 hours ago, Cool said:

We need the Holy Quran for our guidance & steadfastness. 

Sure, we all do brother. 

 

4 hours ago, Cool said:

My only advise to you is to give more time to Quran than what you are already giving.

Give time to Qur'an of tafasir... ? 

[Ethics]

@CoolGood luck trying to explain someone that is so inconsistent and contradictory to their ideology (if it even exists). They are literal quranists when they want to be, and they are anti tafsir when they want to be. Even sunnis clearly understand Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in the quran has elevated Muhammad (عليه السلام) as the greatest divine leader chosen, but this person wont even accept that lol. First time I even heard of such an opinion...

 

11 hours ago, realizm said:

You are confused you are stuck in a matrix of copy-paste with no personal reasoning, allowing you to understand my point : it is not to us to decide who is 'better', and the importance of the mission is not a sign of being BETTER.

This is your standards, not Allah's (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) 

Otherwise, the Mission of Moses, who Saw Allah, confronted a tyrant, dismissed magicians, made his people escape, would make in all honesty, Moses better than Muhammad. 

 

Edited June 17 by Ethics

[Cool]

9 minutes ago, realizm said:

With all due respect brother, your post here does nor prove me wrong in any way.

My apologies if you are thinking that whatever I am saying, saying to prove you wrong. This is not my intention ever. Its all about understanding things properly & learning the things. 

11 minutes ago, realizm said:

What could you make you claim 100% that Muhammad (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or Imam Ali are superior to Khidr ? 

Because Khizr (عليه السلام) used to come to Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for asking solutions for his queries and problems. I will try to find those narrations and share them with you. 

8 minutes ago, realizm said:

Give time to Qur'an of tafasir... ? 

To Quran my dear brother. Make Quran your companion and believe me it will start speaking to you, it will start opening itself up to you provided that you are holding the wilayah of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). 

Quran & wilayah are the قول الثابت by which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guides the humans and grant them the steadfastness.

[Cool]

20 minutes ago, realizm said:

It only points the facts that even prophets or messengers that are commonly accepted as 'superior' can be surpassed

Can anyone surpass Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has promised the مقام محمود ?

وَمِنَ اللَّيْلِ فَتَهَجَّدْ بِهِ نَافِلَةً لَّكَ عَسَى أَن يَبْعَثَكَ رَبُّكَ مَقَامًا مَّحْمُودًا

17:79

This station is never mentioned & promised for anyone except Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

[Cool]

17 minutes ago, Ethics said:

CoolGood luck trying to explain someone that is so inconsistent and contradictory to their ideology (if it even exists). They are literal quranists when they want to be, and they are anti tafsir when they want to be.  

I am taking a soft approach and not intending to debate with @realizm, yet he thought that I am trying to prove him wrong. 

What I am trying is to convey to him all the necessary information and helping him to understand the truth. 

Obviously, every one of us is free to chose way for himself. My effort is only limited to conveying the information & facts to him. Accepting them or refusing them is the task of those who are reading these comments. 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) grant us the شرح صدر and help us accepting the truth. 

 

[Ethics]

15 minutes ago, Cool said:

Can anyone surpass Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has promised the مقام محمود ?

وَمِنَ اللَّيْلِ فَتَهَجَّدْ بِهِ نَافِلَةً لَّكَ عَسَى أَن يَبْعَثَكَ رَبُّكَ مَقَامًا مَّحْمُودًا

17:79

This station is never mentioned & promised for anyone except Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

My dear brother, the user thinks God can be seen astagfirullah, and that Moses "saw" God, that is why Moses (عليه السلام) is better in his mind... You have to start with Tawheed inshAllah.

 

11 hours ago, realizm said:

Otherwise, the Mission of Moses, who Saw Allah

 

[Cool]

1 hour ago, Ethics said:

the user thinks God can be seen astagfirullah,

So we can have the حسن الظن about him and accept his words by assuming how we believe God can be seen i.e., with the eyes of the heart. 

So Musa (عليه السلام) just saw a tajalli of God and become unconscious:

فَلَمَّا تَجَلَّى رَبُّهُ لِلْجَبَلِ جَعَلَهُ دَكًّا وَخَرَّ موسَى صَعِقًا

7:143)

And on the other hand Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) saw أيات الكبرى and yet his heart remain steadfast as mentioned in al-Najm:

ما كذب الفؤاد ما رأء

He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) also got the opportunity to be at the nearest place mentioned as قاب قوسين او ادنى in the same chapter. 

فَكَانَ قَابَ قَوْسَيْنِ أَوْ أَدْنَىٰ {9}

[Shakir 53:9] So he was the measure of two bows or closer still.

فَأَوْحَىٰ إِلَىٰ عَبْدِهِ مَا أَوْحَىٰ {10}

[Shakir 53:10] And He revealed to His servant what He revealed.

مَا كَذَبَ الْفُؤَادُ مَا رَأَىٰ {11}

[Shakir 53:11] The heart was not untrue in (making him see) what he saw.

These profound verses themselves are hujjah:

مَا زَاغَ الْبَصَرُ وَمَا طَغَىٰ {17}

[Shakir 53:17] The eye did not turn aside, nor did it exceed the limit.

لَقَدْ رَأَىٰ مِنْ آيَاتِ رَبِّهِ الْكُبْرَىٰ {18}

[Shakir 53:18] Certainly he saw of the greatest signs of his Lord.

If I were to go into the tafseer of آيَاتِ رَبِّهِ الْكُبْرَىٰ, I fear all of my hard work on this thread will go vain so I am avoiding the tafseer intentionally. 

[realizm]

8 hours ago, Ethics said:

But this user who claims to be a shia

Be careful of speaking ill of 'this user' who believes in all usul and furu of din, follows all 12 a'imma, is indeed cautious of calling himself a shia as per advice of a'imma, when you take pride in calling yourself a Shia but display the poorest akhlaq and attack believers. 

Look at you trying to gang up against me with some fellow mates, who obviously do not seem to adhere to your petty ways. 

8 hours ago, Ethics said:

They are literal quranists when they want to be, and they are anti tafsir when they want to be

As long as it means I reflect myself and do not just binge ahadith and lectures (I've been there, believe it or not), call me whatever. I am a free believer. 

Bad news for you is that I am still in the fold of Twelver Shia Islam. 

 

Edited June 17 by realizm

[realizm]

4 hours ago, Cool said:

My apologies if you are thinking that whatever I am saying, saying to prove you wrong. This is not my intention ever. Its all about understanding things properly & learning the things

Correcting people implies something was wrong, but that is all good I get your idea. 

4 hours ago, Cool said:

Because Khizr (عليه السلام) used to come to Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for asking solutions for his queries and problems. I will try to find those narrations and share them with you. 

In sha Allah. I might reconsider then. 

4 hours ago, Cool said:

Can anyone surpass Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has promised the مقام محمود ?

وَمِنَ اللَّيْلِ فَتَهَجَّدْ بِهِ نَافِلَةً لَّكَ عَسَى أَن يَبْعَثَكَ رَبُّكَ مَقَامًا مَّحْمُودًا

17:79

This station is never mentioned & promised for anyone except Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

All due respect brother, but there is a lack of understanding here. 

"Maqama Mahmouda" does not imply exclusivity in any way, like would mean "Al Maqam al Mahmoud".

And just because it is not mentioned anywhere else doesn't mean it is not, or has not be reserved to anyone else before or after. 

Salam

 

 

[realizm]

4 hours ago, Ethics said:

My dear brother, the user thinks God can be seen astagfirullah, and that Moses "saw" God, that is why Moses (عليه السلام) is better in his mind... You have to start with Tawheed inshAllah.

I quoted you and corrected my mistake, but strangely you decided to stick to my first mistake. Your choice. 

[realizm]

3 hours ago, Cool said:

So we can have the حسن الظن about him and accept his words by assuming how we believe God can be seen i.e., with the eyes of the heart. 

So Musa (عليه السلام) just saw a tajalli of God and become unconscious:

فَلَمَّا تَجَلَّى رَبُّهُ لِلْجَبَلِ جَعَلَهُ دَكًّا وَخَرَّ موسَى صَعِقًا

7:143)

And on the other hand Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) saw أيات الكبرى and yet his heart remain steadfast as mentioned in al-Najm:

ما كذب الفؤاد ما رأء

He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) also got the opportunity to be at the nearest place mentioned as قاب قوسين او ادنى in the same chapter. 

فَكَانَ قَابَ قَوْسَيْنِ أَوْ أَدْنَىٰ {9}

[Shakir 53:9] So he was the measure of two bows or closer still.

فَأَوْحَىٰ إِلَىٰ عَبْدِهِ مَا أَوْحَىٰ {10}

[Shakir 53:10] And He revealed to His servant what He revealed.

مَا كَذَبَ الْفُؤَادُ مَا رَأَىٰ {11}

[Shakir 53:11] The heart was not untrue in (making him see) what he saw.

These profound verses themselves are hujjah:

مَا زَاغَ الْبَصَرُ وَمَا طَغَىٰ {17}

[Shakir 53:17] The eye did not turn aside, nor did it exceed the limit.

لَقَدْ رَأَىٰ مِنْ آيَاتِ رَبِّهِ الْكُبْرَىٰ {18}

[Shakir 53:18] Certainly he saw of the greatest signs of his Lord.

If I were to go into the tafseer of آيَاتِ رَبِّهِ الْكُبْرَىٰ, I fear all of my hard work on this thread will go vain so I am avoiding the tafseer intentionally. 

Indeed, these verses are enough to prove that Muhammad (sawas) achieved higher levels than Moses (عليه السلام) did, while he was at the Mount and received the strike. 

[Ethics]

5 hours ago, realizm said:

Be careful of speaking ill of 'this user' who believes in all usul and furu of din, follows all 12 a'imma, is indeed cautious of calling himself a shia as per advice of a'imma, when you take pride in calling yourself a Shia but display the poorest akhlaq and attack believers. 

Look at you trying to gang up against me with some fellow mates, who obviously do not seem to adhere to your petty ways. 

As long as it means I reflect myself and do not just binge ahadith and lectures (I've been there, believe it or not), call me whatever. I am a free believer. 

Bad news for you is that I am still in the fold of Twelver Shia Islam. 

 

I did not know saying someone claims to be a shia is speaking ill. Everyone claims to be something, it is their words and their beliefs that attest what they claim which is what I am putting into question. It is my God given right as is yours. Alhamduillah that you claim to follow all these things, but to me, from these things you have been professing and claiming they are not common, not even in sunni islam. I am free to call you out. If you cannot take the heat do not start by getting into the discussion and openly professing your views. People are free to question you. People cannot take the heat and always yell something more then it really is. You need to relax no one is trying to hurt you buddy. "Attack" believers? As far as I knew, "until you corrected yourself", you believed you can see God and that Moses (عليه السلام) saw God astafirullah. That is outside the folds of Islam. Of course I am going to tell you how I see it, especially from someone online claiming to be in the same creed as me. I was just trying to tell the brothers, it is futile to try and explain things to someone that already has a preconceived false notion ingrained in their mind. You need to go to the roots first. I also never said you were not in the folds of 12vr Shia Islam.  I am simply putting a question mark in my mind when I am reading or talking to you. Anyone can claim to be anything these days, after all it was the hypocrites within Islam that was the most threatening to Muhammad (عليه السلام)

[realizm]

22 hours ago, Ethics said:

I did not know saying someone claims to be a shia is speaking ill

Next time you will try to advocate calling a Muslim kafir is not a bad thing. 

22 hours ago, Ethics said:

Everyone claims to be something, it is their words and their beliefs that attest what they claim which is what I am putting into question

So again I am telling you, in case this was not clear to you, adhering to usul and furu includes one in the faith. As pointed out by a member, belief that anbiya are superior to a'imma exists in the Twelve school. 

Put whatever you want in question anyway. 

22 hours ago, Ethics said:

If you cannot take the heat do not start by getting into the discussion and openly professing your views. People are free to question you. People cannot take the heat and always yell something more then it really is

Matter of fact I was warning you because heat will not on be me at that point. And I am not talking about the heat of Shiachat, but real heat. You questioning someone's faith and whispering mockery to others is the ways of schoolboys, except that you are an adult, and adults who fall for this have no excuses.  Check your manners and intentions, that is my advice. 

22 hours ago, Ethics said:

You need to relax no one is trying to hurt you buddy. "Attack" believers?

Best answer here would be 'lol' I guess, but picture this brother, I have been on SC for 17 years, I am old enough to know that no one is hurting me here.

Act like you do not understand figurative speech. 

22 hours ago, Ethics said:

As far as I knew, "until you corrected yourself", you believed you can see God and that Moses (عليه السلام) saw God astafirullah. That is outside the folds of Islam.

'As far as you knew'? Well you know not much because as I told, I never believed that Moses saw God (heard about figurative speech?). Put your inverted commas if that makes you feel smart. 

I will let you rethink how you just lied about me 'believing that I could see God', words I never typed or even mistyped. 

 

22 hours ago, Ethics said:

Anyone can claim to be anything these days after all it was the hypocrites within Islam that was the most threatening to Muhammad (عليه السلام)

There is no relationship with Allah's description of a hypocrite and this topic. And you might not want to get on that slope, because I already have pointed some of your characteristics that are not always in line with sincerity. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 6/17/2023 at 10:24 AM, realizm said:

What could you make you claim 100% that Muhammad (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) or Imam Ali are superior to Khidr ? 

Salam superiority of prophet Muhammad (pbu) over all prophets has been verified in both of Sunni & Shia Islam because he has been  seal of  all prophets so therefore Islam most has superiority over all previous religions so therefore it must be promoted by a prophet who has superiprity over all previous prophets which this prophet has been prophet Muhammad (pbu) which also Amir almuminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has been Nafs & divinely appointed  successor of prophet Muhammad (pbu) so therefore he has had all qualities of prophet Muhammad(pbu) except he has not been prohet after Muhammad (pbu) so therefore he has been superior to all prophets except prophet Muhammad(pbu).

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The fact that Prophet Musa ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) followed Khidhr ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is good proof of this matter. The Quran has pointed to this event in some of its verses. These verses disclose that Prophet Musa ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), who had his own religion and also bore the ranks of prophethood and imamate and was known as Kalimullah (the one who spoke with Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))), went to a servant of Allah’s (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who had been taught divine knowledge, but had no religion and no book, and asked him if he (Prophet Musa ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))) could accompany and learn from him. Khidhr tells him that he (Prophet Musa) doesn’t have the tolerance needed to accompany him, and later scolds him harshly saying: “Didn’t I tell you that you can't accompany me?!”, and scolds him afterwards even harsher saying: “You can't stay with me anymore!”. [6]

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa6067

By: Allamah Sayyid Muhammad Husayn at-Tabataba'i

Question
Is there any other verse in addition to Surah al-Ahzab 33:40 that expresses the Noble Prophet’s finality and superiority in comparison to the other prophets?

Answer
In addition to the verse you have mentioned: “…He is the Apostle of God and the Seal of the Prophets…” Surah al-Ahzab 33:40
there are others that proclaim the universality and perpetuality of the message of Islam. The following are some examples: “…And this Qur’an has been revealed to me that I may warn thereby you and whomever it may reach…” Surah al-An‘am 6:19
“…Indeed it is an august Book: falsehood cannot approach it, neither from before it nor from behind it…” Surah Fussilat 41:41-42
The claim to perpetuality of a religion would be meaningless without the finality of the bringer of the religion.
Furthermore, the following verses that aver the Qur’an’s superiority to other revealed books also imply the Noble Prophet’s superiority, for the Noble Qur’an is the Prophet’s message, and a prophet’s merit is determined by his message “…We have sent down the Book to you as a clarification of all things…” Surah al-Nahl 16:89
“We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, confirming what was before it of the Book and as a guardian over it…” Surah al-Ma’idah 5:46
“He has prescribed for you the religion which He had enjoined upon Noah and which We have also revealed to you, and which We had enjoined upon Abraham, Moses, and Jesus…” Surah al-Shawra 42:13.

https://www.imamreza.net/old/eng/imamreza.php?id=11847

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Imamat versus Prophethood Part 1

Evidence From Qur’an

People who are familiar with Qur’an to some extent, know that this belief is not a weird-thing. In fact, Qur’an testifies that the position of Imamat is higher than the position of prophethood and messengership. Allah, to whom belong Might and Majesty, said:

"And when Abraham was tested by his Lord with certain commands and he fulfilled them. Then He said: Lo! I appoint you an Imam for mankind.”(Qur’an 2:124).

 وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا قَالَ وَمِن ذُرِّيَّتِي قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ

As we can see, Prophet Abraham was further tested by Allah during his prophethood, and when he successfully passed the tests (which were the test on his life, leaving his wife, sacrificing his son), he was granted the position of Imamat. This shows position of Imamat is higher in degree than prophethood which has been given to him later after acquiring more qualifications. Degrees are always granted in ascending order. We have not seen any person who got his Ph.D. degree first, and then gets his highschool diploma. At least in the administration of God there is no such mess!

Quote

Muhammad (S) was a Prophet, a Messenger, and an Imam. By His death the door of prophethood and messengership was closed for ever. But the door of Imamat (leadership) remained open because he had successors (Caliphs; deputies).

Successor means a person who succeeds the position of the previous one. It is the obvious that successors of Prophet Muhammad did not share anything about his position of prophethood and messengership. What remained for them was Imamat (leadership).

 

- Imam ‘Ali (عليه السلام) having the highest virtues of the early great Messengers:

The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "He who wants to see Noah (عليه السلام) in his determination, Adam (عليه السلام) in his knowledge, Abraham (عليه السلام) in his clemency, Moses (عليه السلام) in his intelligence and Jesus (عليه السلام) in his religious devotion should look at ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام)."

Sunni references:

- Sahih al-Bayhaqi
- Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, as quoted in
- Sharh Ibn Abi al-Hadid, v2, p449
- Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhruddin al-Razi, under the commentary of the Verse of Impreciation (Mubilah), v2 p288. He wrote this tradition has been accpeted as all genuine.

Quote

- Ibn Batah has recorded it as a tradition related by Ibn Abbas as is stated in the book "Fat’h al-Mulk al-’Ali bi Sihah Hadith-e-Bab-e- Madinat al-Ilm", p34, by Ahmed Ibn Muhammad Ibn Siddiq al-Hasani al- Maghribi.

- Among those who have admitted that Imam ‘Ali (عليه السلام) is the store house of the secrets of all the Prophets is the Chief of Gnostics, Muhi al- Din al-Arabi, from whom al-Arif al-Sha’arni has copied it in his al- Yuwaqit wa al-Jawahir (p172, topic 32).

Salman al-Farsi (رضي الله عنه) narrated that:
I heard the Messenger of Allah (S) saying: "I myself, and ‘Ali were one light in the hands of Allah fourteen thousand years (14,000) before He created Adam (عليه السلام). When Allah created Adam (عليه السلام) He divided that light into two parts, one part is me and one part ‘Ali."

Sunni References:

- Mizan Al-Ei’tidal, by al-Dhahabi, v1, p235
- Fada’il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p663, Tradition #1130
- al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by al-Muhib al-Tabari, v2, p164, v3, p154
- History of Ibn Asakir Remark: "hand of Allah”means His power. The phrase "within the hands
of Allah”means in His presence, domain, realm, kingdom.

This clearly shows that the rank of Prophet Muhammad (S) and Imam ‘Ali (عليه السلام) are better than any human being ever created by Allah.

Quote

- No one crosses the Path except by a passport from ‘Ali (as):

Anas Ibn Malik narrated:
"When Abu Bakr neared death,..., Abu Bakr said that he heard the Messenger of Allah (S) saying: That there is an obstacle on the Path which no one crosses unless with a passport (permission) from ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام). And I heard the Messenger of Allah (S) saying: "I am the seal of the prophets and you, ‘Ali, the seal of the Awliyaa."

Sunni references:

- Tarikh, by al-Khateeb al-Baghdadi, v10, p356
- al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9, subheading 2, p195

Imam ‘Ali (عليه السلام) narrated:

The Messenger of Allah (S) said: When Allah gathers the first-ones and the last-ones on the Day of Judgment, and the Path has been erected on the bridge of Hell, no one can cross it unless he had along proof of allegiance (Wilaya) to ‘Ali Ibn Abi Talib."

Sunni reference: al-Riyadh al-Nadhirah, by Muhibbuddin al-Tabari, v2, p172

- ‘Ali (عليه السلام) is the divider of People to Paradise and Hell:

"The prophet (S) said to ‘Ali (as): You are the divider of Paradise and Hell on the Day of Judgment, you say to Hell: This one for me and that one for you."

Sunni reference: al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar, Ch. 9, subheading 2, p195

Quote

"‘Ali (عليه السلام) said: I am the alloter/divider of Hell."

Sunni references:
- Kanzul Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, v6, p402
- Radd al-Shams, by Shathan Al-Fudhaily

"The Messenger of Allah (S) has said: ‘Ali is the divider of Hell."

Sunni reference: Kunooz Al-Haqa’iq, by Abdul Raouf al-Manawi, p92

And here is a poem from al-Shafi’i (one of the four Sunni Imams):

"‘Ali will judge mankind and allot them either paradise or hell. He was the leader of men and Jinns, the true Testator of the Holy Prophet. If the followers of ‘Ali are ‘Rafidhi’ verily I am one of that sect. ‘Ali at the time of breaking of the symbols in the Ka’ba put his feet on that shoulder where God had put his hand on the ‘Night of Mi’raj’ and verily ‘Ali was that into whose eyes shone the light of God."

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/imamat-versus-prophethood-part-1

What is the reason for the imams being higher than all prophets other than the prophet of Islam ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم))?

Concise answer

It has been stated in our religious teachings that all prophets and messengers have no advantage and virtue over the imams, other than the fact that they bear prophethood, while the imams are the bearers of whatever knowledge all of the prophets before them ever possessed. Also, according to hadiths, “The Great Name” of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) consists of seventy three “letters” in which the prophets only knew a few of; even Prophet Ibrahim ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) only knew eight of those “letters”, while Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) was aware of all but one of them and passed on this knowledge to the imams (عليه السلام) after him.

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa6067