Calling upon other than Allah

[Muhammad Qaim]

HELP FROM OTHER THAN ALLAH?

This debate, in the Shia community, is an unnecessarily controversial topic. You can find the description of this dilemma under various headings, the most famous of which is “Is saying Yā ʿAlī Madad allowed in Islam?” Is it shirk (association of partners with Allah),  bidʿah (innovation in religion), mustaḥabb (recommended) or ḥarām (prohibited)?

Many people resort to asking the Marājiʿ , seeking their fatāwā’  (jurisprudential ruling) on this matter. Some resort to their own whims and opinions, without caring or bothering to research, investigate, and peruse the Islamic literature on this matter.

Among those who choose the more difficult of the three paths, i.e., to search for truth by investigation and research (taḥqīq), are two factions. First are those with confirmation bias who only set out to find proofs that fortify their claim, while ignoring or misinterpreting any evidence against their argument—these people are actually not looking for the truth, they have already made up their minds as to what the truth is, and won’t be convinced no matter how obvious and in their face the reality is. It is very hard for a person who is firmly rooted in a certain belief system to change his/her mindset, and if Allāh leaves them wandering in their rebellion, then not even the Prophet ﷺ can guide them. [7:186]

The second group is constituted by actual skeptics who are willing to stand corrected when the argument presents itself in front of them, and strive to the best of their capability to remain logical and unbiased in their research.

Āyatullāh Sayyid Kamāl al-Ḥaydarī said in one of his lectures:

“When you or I read history, we seek to take what supports and establishes the correctness of our creed, sect, and religion,  (i.e., what we already believe), however, if we put these biased glasses on, we will not reach the truth. Therefore, the search for truth must be more important than belonging to a sect or religion. Let the focus of your research be upon the truth. It may be that what you find is congruent with the religion you are convinced about, and it could also be that what you are convinced about is contrary to the truth. Akhbārī seeks to establish Akhbāriyyah, Uṣūlī seeks to establish Uṣūliyyah, philosophers seek to establish philosophy, ʿIrfāni seeks to establish ʿIrfān. If this is your focus, then rest assured you are not searching for the truth. Memorize this statement: ‘The search for truth is more important than belonging’—this is what we are calling for when we call towards logic (mantiq), i.e., we must find that you exhibit a logic geared toward the search for truth, not a logic which seeks to support whatever you are already upon.”

WHERE TO SEARCH FOR THE TRUTH?

The answer is clear-cut and straightforward. The Qur’ān should be any Muslim’s first point of reference whenever researching religion. The first question that should arise in a believer’s mind regarding Allāh’s decree or order is, “What does the Book of Allāh say?” George Tarabishi, a Syrian writer, has reportedly said that the reason why Muslims have become as debased and impotent as they have, is because they have left the Islām of the Qur’ān and accepted the Islām of ḥadīth. Regardless of what state the rest of the ummah­ is in, this notion most certainly holds true for the majority of the Twelver Shias today. The approach towards religion, for centuries, in the Shīʿī school of thought has been a traditional (ḥadīth-based) one. The practice of most turbaned scholars nowadays is to read the ḥadīth books, pick out traditions that support their cause, and feed them to the masses, without caring in the least to verify, at least, the chain of narrators first. How would they? Most are not even adept in ʿilm ar-rijāl (the study of people who transmitted/reported sayings from the holy Prophet ﷺ or the Imāms).

Even if some of them do bother to verify the chain, they still fail on the second, and perhaps the most important step, which is to test the veridicality of the narration upon established principles from the verses of the holy Qur’ān. No matter how strong the chain of narrators is, if the narration opposes the Qur’ān, it should be thrown away, because whatever is from the Infallibles (عليه السلام) can never contradict the word of Allāh. In Mu’jam Rijāl al-Ḥadīth, Imām ʿAlī ar-Riḍā (عليه السلام) has confirmed the above methodology. However, most modern scholars have a converse approach: They study the corpus of narrations and subsequently read the Qur’ān, interpreting the verses according to the ḥadīth perspective. What they are doing is trying to make the Qur’ān comply with what they have already established from the narrations. Such a reading of the Book is close to fabricating lies against Allāh and His Messenger ﷺ. Then who is more unjust than [the one] who invents a lie about Allāh to mislead the people without knowledge? Indeed Allah does not guide the transgressors [6:144].  

Hence, our methodology for this research will be primarily based upon clear (muḥkam) verses from the Qur’ān, and ḥadīth shall only be relied upon if it conforms to the Book. This is important because, the Qu’ān is “Furqān”  or “Criterion” that separates truth from falsehood [2:185] [3:4] [25:1]. And truth has become distinct from error [2:256].

THE QUR’ĀN

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إِيَّاكَ نَعْبُدُ وَ إِيَّاكَ نَسْتَعِيْنُ

It’s harrowing how this explicit verse is still not enough to shatter the arguments that our fellow Shias come up with.  Despite having memorized “You alone we worship and You alone we ask for help” [1:5] since childhood and hopefully reciting the verse at least 10 times a day in our daily prayers, it seems like we haven’t understood the message of it (and how clear a message it is!). The verse declares that worship is for Allāh alone—this is because of the use of the word “iyyāka”. If the verse said “We worship you” (as opposed to the usage of ‘only’ or ‘alone’), then the wording would have been different; Allāh could have revealed, “نَعْبُدُكَ وَ نَسْتَعِيْنُكَ”, which would translate to “We worship you and seek help from you.”

But no! The word “إياك” has reserved the act of worship for Allah alone, without exception. This is clear to every believing Muslim, and is the fundamental pillar of Islām, i.e., tawḥīd. The rejection of other deities and gods as unworthy of worship is the very foundation of this monotheistic religion. But what most of us often choose to forget is that the same reservation and restriction is placed, without any distinction, to the act of seeking help. Both the phrases are separated only by a “و” (and). The import of the verse would have not changed had Allāh chosen to omit the second “إياك”, that means, the Qur’ān could have said, “You alone we worship and seek help from.” The meaning is not that different, is it? So, what is the need to add another “iyyāka” before “nastaʿīnu”? The reason is right in front of you. It is to put emphasis on the “You only/alone” part. “Seeking help” is very similar to the act of “worship” in the manner that both are reserved, by how this verse reads, for Allāh, and no one else.

Here comes the layman Shia’s first question: “That seems illogical, how can it be said that “seeking/asking for help” is reserved for Allāh alone? Do we not seek help from other human beings like family, friends, doctors, teachers, strangers, and so on? Are we then flouting and violating an Islamic law by seeking help from the creation of Allāh, while it is reserved for the Creator alone?” This question is insincere, and only asked by those who want to defend their practice of saying “Yā ʿAlī madad” or “Yā Ḥusayn madad” to the very last breath. The answer to this question is very simple, “Asking for help from anyone who is alive and present in front of you is allowed and unproblematic, but seeking assistance from someone who is behind the curtain of ghayb is prohibited, because ghaybī assistance is from Allāh alone.”

A counter that opponents of this argument often come up with is, “But the Prophet (S) and his Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are all alive, just like those killed in the way of Allāh (martyrs/shuhadā’). Doesn’t the Qur’ān say, “Do not call those slain in Allah’s way ‘dead’. No, they are living, but you are not aware. [2:154] …they are alive with their Lord, receiving provision [3:169]”?”

First of all, most scholars opine that this realm of existence or state of living is not the same as ours, but it is barzakh. This will be confirmed if you refer to Tafsīr al-Mīzān for the above verses.

Secondly, the verse still doesn’t legitimize or vindicate seeking help from martyrs because of the simple fact that even if alive, they are not present in front of us, but are on the other side of the curtain of ghayb, and therefore, seeking help from them would be disobedience in light of the verses of the Qur’ān. Moreover, they themselves are dependent on Allāh for their provision.

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وَاسْتَعِينُوا بِالصَّبْرِ وَالصَّلَاةِ ۚ وَإِنَّهَا لَكَبِيرَةٌ إِلَّا عَلَى الْخَاشِعِينَ
الَّذِينَ يَظُنُّونَ أَنَّهُم مُّلَاقُو رَبِّهِمْ وَأَنَّهُمْ إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ

In sūrah al-Baqarah, Allāh says, “And seek help through patience and prayer. And indeed, it is difficult except for the humble ones—who are certain they will meet their Lord and they will return to him.” [2:45-46]

A very similar verse is found later on in the same sūrah:

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يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اسْتَعِينُوا بِالصَّبْرِ وَالصَّلَاةِ ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ مَعَ الصَّابِرِينَ

The phrase “ٱستعينواْ بٱالصبر وٱلصلوة” appears in both the verses. Patience and prayer are listed as the means or methods of seeking help. The verb for help is “astaʿīnu”—same as the one in sūrah al-Fātiḥah. In verse 153, Allāh is explicitly addressing “those who believe”, however, in the verse 45, Allāh is addressing Banī Isrā’īl (The Children of Israel). From the context of both verses, it can be understood that the teaching is not specific to Children of Israel, but even if someone ignorant enough does come up with the objection, the latter verse (153) clarifies the matter. Verse 45 is just a continuation of Allāh’s commandments to Banī Isrā’īl that begin from verse 40, which includes upholding covenants, believing in Allāh’s revelations, establishing and bowing down in prayer, paying the charity (zakāh), etc. The succeeding verses are also addressed to the same nation.

A believer’s prayer is established when his niyyah (intention) is khāliṣ (pure), that is, to seek nearness to Allāh, his Lord and Sustainer (qurbatan ilallāh). Allāh continues, “and it is difficult except for the humble ones”—“it” refers to the act of prayer or “ṣalāh”. Clearly, prayer is the ultimate representation of complete submission to one’s Lord, when one bows down and then prostrates to Him, he admits his weakness to his Lord, who is the Almighty and All-Powerful. The believer is always in need of help from his rabb. Prayer is where a believer is humbled, as Allāh says in sūrah al-Mu’minūn, “Certainly the believers will have succeeded. Those who are humble in their prayer” [23:1-2]. Allāh repudiates those who are negligent of prayer and do good deeds only to show off: “So woe to those who pray [but] are heedless of their prayer. Those who make a show of their deeds.” [107:4-6]

It is clear how humbly standing in prayer in front of Allāh is one of the best ways to seek help from Allāh. The second way mentioned in the verses is through “patience”. Patience is an exemplary trait in a human being that makes any hardship possible to overcome. It would seem that the believers, by being patient, have helped themselves, out of their own ability, but that is where verse 153 corrects you, “Indeed Allah is with those who are patient”—so even when the believers are being patient in the face of hardships, Allāh is with them. This confirms that the source of help is Allāh alone, in all cases!

It could be said that on the basis of these verses that ṣabr and ṣalāh are two “wasā’il” of receiving divine assistance and support. The import of these verses is crystal even from a superficial reading, and does not need much clarification, as the meaning is not of an esoteric or arcane nature. However, just to supplement our argument, let’s take a narration from al-Kāfī, as mentioned in al-Mīzan fī Tafsīr al-Qur’ān by ʿAllāmah Ṭabāṭabā’ī:

Imām aṣ-Ṣādiq said: “Whenever ʿAlī ((عليه السلام).) faced a difficulty, he used to stand up for the prayer and then recite this verse…” and also, “When a man is confronted by a hard misfortune, he should fast. Surely Allāh says: and seek help through patience, that is, fast.”

Here, the Imām ((عليه السلام).) has interpreted ṣabr as “fast” or “ṣawm”. The tafsīr mentioned in this ḥadīth does not contradict the matn of the Qur’ān because fasting certainly requires a lot of patience. Hence, a wasīlah of seeking recourse other than prayer is fasting. Verse 46 says that the humble ones are “those who are certain that they will meet their Lord and return to him.”—this clause is important, as we’ll explain next:

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وَلَنَبْلُوَنَّكُم بِشَيْءٍ مِّنَ الْخَوْفِ وَالْجُوعِ وَنَقْصٍ مِّنَ الْأَمْوَالِ وَالْأَنفُسِ وَالثَّمَرَاتِ وَبَشِّرِ الصَّابِرِينَ
الَّذِينَ إِذَا أَصَابَتْهُم مُّصِيبَةٌ قَالُوا إِنَّا لِلَّهِ وَإِنَّا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعُونَ‏
أُولَٰئِكَ عَلَيْهِمْ صَلَوَاتٌ مِّن رَّبِّهِمْ وَرَحْمَةٌ وَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الْمُهْتَدُونَ ‎

The translation of the above verses of the same chapter 2, al-Baqarah, [2:155-157] is:

“And We will surely test you with something of  fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, and give good tidings to the patient, who, when disaster strikes them, say, “Indeed we belong to Allāh and indeed to Him we will return. Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy and it is those who are rightly guided.”

These verses tie up beautifully with [1:5], [2:45], and [2:153]. In al-Fātiḥah, we are taught to ask Allāh for help, and what help did we ask Him for?—“Guide us to the straight path” [1:6]. We’re asking for “guidance”. Allah’s guidance is to be found in His Book, which is a guidance for the godwary [2:3].  He ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).) taught us to seek recourse through praying and observing patience (or fasting, acc. to tradition) in verses 45 and 153, where he also said, “إن الله مع الصابرين“. In the verses under discussion, He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has detailed who the الصابرين are.

He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says that the believers will be tested with fear, hunger, monetary loss, death, fruits, etc. but also instructs his Prophet ﷺ to bear good news for the “patient” ones. What are the characteristics of those people?

They patiently remember their Lord in times of affliction and calamity, remembering that their return is to Allāh, therefore the calamities of this world are trivial compared to those of the Hereafter. It is this remembrance of the day of Judgment that helps them stay patient in the face of adversity, because they are certain they will meet their Lord [2:46]. Such are the people who are helped by Allāh, and upon whom are blessings from their Lord [2:157].

There you have the guidance you asked for in al-Fātiḥah! Hence, is is those who are rightly guided.

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أَمَّن يُجِيبُ الْمُضْطَرَّ إِذَا دَعَاهُ وَيَكْشِفُ السُّوءَ وَيَجْعَلُكُمْ خُلَفَاءَ الْأَرْضِ أَإِلَٰهٌ مَّعَ اللَّهِ قَلِيلًا مَّا تَذَكَّرُونَ 

The 62nd verse of Surah An-Naml (27) is a cogent argument for all believers who exercise their reason. It is a rhetorical question or challenge to people who invoke or call upon anyone besides Allāh from among his creation. The translation is:

Who answers the distressed when he calls Him and removes evil and appoints you as inheritors of the earth? Is there a god with Allāh? Little do you remember!

If anyone other than Allāh could possibly answer you and remove your distress, then would not this challenge of Allāh become pointless (astaghfirullāh!)?

Imām ʿAlī (عليه السلام) and Rasūlullāh ﷺ are clearly separate from Allāh and are His creations. They are not gods, that is true, and no Shīʿī believes that. All of the anbiya’ and ‘awliyā are His righteous servants whose only purpose is to guide us to the right path. They do not have a share in Allāh’s creation or might. They do not control the atoms of the universe.

Therefore, when you call upon them in times of need, you are actually countering Allāh’s argument in the above verse. To boil it down for the layman in simple terms, what you are implying is:

“Yes, O’ Allāh, apart from You, there are some creations of Yours who can answer us when we call them, and can remove our adversities, difficulties and problems.”

Allāh: “Is there a God with Allāh?”

You: “No, my Lord, they are not gods, but You have created them and appointed them as intermediaries. They can only hear our call and respond to us with Your permission. They are not indepentent of You, rather they are a wasīlah to You!”

This is the typical Shīʿah argument, which is, unfortunately, often even put forward by pseudo-scholars who occupy the pulpit and address majālis consisting of hundreds and thousands of laymen who only know how to applaud the “mawlānā” or “dhākir” no matter what ghuluww or kurf they may be insinuating.

Allāh answers this first in Sūrah al-Isrā’:

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قُلِ ادْعُوا الَّذِينَ زَعَمْتُم مِّن دُونِهِ فَلَا يَمْلِكُونَ كَشْفَ الضُّرِّ عَنكُمْ وَلَا تَحْوِيلًا
أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ يَبْتَغُونَ إِلَىٰ رَبِّهِمُ الْوَسِيلَةَ أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ وَيَرْجُونَ رَحْمَتَهُ وَيَخَافُونَ عَذَابَهُ إِنَّ عَذَابَ رَبِّكَ كَانَ مَحْذُورًا

Verses 56-57:

Say: “Invoke those whom you claim besides Him, for they neither have power to remove your adversity nor bring change. They (themselves) are those who call and seek means to their Lord, whoever is nearer, expecting His mercy and fearing His punishment. Indeed your Lord’s punishment is to beware of.

Lo! You were claiming that the prophets and Imāms have been given power by Allāh to hear you (even when they are in ghayb or deceased) but Allāh refuted you and negated your argument. If this verse talked about idols, then verse 57 would be meaningless because idols do not call upon Allāh or seek wasīlah to Him, or seek His nearness or fear His punishment. Therfore, it is proven that those whom “you claim besides Him” are clearly living creatures who pray to their Lord and fear His punishment. Was this not the exemplary behavior of all the prophets, Imāms and His righteous servants?

You claimed that the prophets and Imāms themselves are a wasīlah to Allāh! That is why you were calling them. The argument you put forward is that you call upon these servants of Allāh because they are nearer to their Lord and therefore, will intercede for you in your supplications. But what did Allāh say? Read the āyāt again. "لا يملكون" means no power/control.

Allāh again refutes the same argument in Sūrah Fāṭir:

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وَالَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِهِ مَا يَمْلِكُونَ مِن قِطْمِيرٍ

إِن تَدْعُوهُمْ لَا يَسْمَعُوا دُعَاءَكُمْ وَلَوْ سَمِعُوا مَا اسْتَجَابُوا لَكُمْ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكْفُرُونَ بِشِرْكِكُمْ

And those whom you call besides Him do not control even as much as the husk of a date stone. If you call them, they do not hear your call, and if they heard they would not respond to you. And on the day of qiyāmah will deny your shirk [35:13-14]

The translation is clear. Those whom you invoke are creations who have not been given a share in Allāh’s power to control anything, they are nothing but dependent servants of Allāh. They can not even control a thing as small and insignificant as the husk of a date-seed, so how can they solve your problems? This verse, again, is not talking about the idols worshipped by idolaters, because of the words, “and if they heard, they would not respond to you”—we all know idols can not hear in the first place, so there was no need for Allāh to say “and if they heard”. Neither are idols conscious, sentient, speaking entities who possess intellect. That is why, it is only fitting that those who, on the day of qiyāmah will deny your shirk are righteous servants of Allāh, like the awliyā’, the angels or the prophets.

Verse [27:62] when talking about calling Allāh, used the phrase: “Is there a god with Allāh” and this verse says “will deny your shirk”—hold on! But we never worshipped the Imāms or considered them to be gods, we only called upon them to help us—that is what the layman says. However, in Allāh’s eyes, this is shirk.

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قُلْ أَرَأَيْتُمْ شُرَكَاءَكُمُ الَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ أَرُونِي مَاذَا خَلَقُوا مِنَ الْأَرْضِ أَمْ لَهُمْ شِرْكٌ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ أَمْ آتَيْنَاهُمْ كِتَابًا فَهُمْ عَلَىٰ بَيِّنَتٍ مِّنْهُ ۚبَلْ إِن يَعِدُ الظَّالِمُونَ بَعْضُهُم بَعْضًا إِلَّا غُرُورًا

Say: “Have you not considered your partners whom you call besides Allāh. Show me what have they created from the earth. Do they have partnership (with Him) in the heavens or have we given them a book so they are on evidence from it? No, rather the wrongdoers promise one another nothing but delusion.”  [35:40]

Are Imāms the creators? (naʿūdhubillāh) No!

Are they Allāh’s partners in the skies/heavens? No!

Have they been given a book containing evidence that you can call upon them? No!

This is how the āyah can be applied to our current belief. The istighāthā defendant replies:

“But the Prophet ﷺ was given a book. In fact, it is the very book you are quoting from, Allāh’s last and best book, the Qur’ān! So we can call upon him, right?”

This is illogical. Yes, the Prophet ﷺ has been given a book, but is there any “evidence from it” that he ﷺ can answer your supplication? Do not take one part of the verse and ignore the other.

In fact, Allāh says to His Rasūl ﷺ:

Say: I have no power to harm or benefit myself, except as God wills [10:49]

Say, “I have no control over any benefit or harm to myself, except as God wills. Had I known the future, I would have acquired much good, and no harm would have touched me. I am only a warner, and a herald of good news to a people who believe.” [7:188]

If God touches you with adversity, none can remove it except He. And if He touches you with good—He is Capable of everything. [6:17]

Do you not know that to Allah belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth? And besides Allah, you do not have any guardian or helper. [2:107]

Allāh strengthens whomever He wishes with His help. There is indeed a moral in that for those who have insight. [3:13]

Indeed, Allāh is your Master, and He is the best of helpers [3:150]

If Allāh helps you, no one can overcome you, but if He forsakes you, who will help you after Him? So in Allāh let all the faithful put their trust. [3:160]

A similar argument is also found in Sūrah al-Aḥqāf:

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قُلْ أَرَأَيْتُم مَّا تَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ أَرُونِي مَاذَا خَلَقُوا مِنَ الْأَرْضِ أَمْ لَهُمْ شِرْكٌ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ ائْتُونِي بِكِتَابٍ مِّن قَبْلِ هَٰذَا أَوْ أَثَارَةٍ مِّنْ عِلْمٍ إِن كُنتُمْ صَادِقِينَ
‏وَمَنْ أَضَلُّ مِمَّن يَدْعُو مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ مَن لَّا يَسْتَجِيبُ لَهُ إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ وَهُمْ عَن دُعَائِهِمْ غَافِلُونَ

Say, ‘Tell me about those you invoke besides Allah. Show me what [part] of the earth have they created. Do they have any share in the heavens? Bring me a scripture [revealed] before this, or some vestige of [divine] knowledge, if you are truthful.’ (4) Who is more astray than him who invokes besides Allah such [entities] as would not respond to him until the Day of Resurrection, and who are oblivious of their invocation? [46:4-5]

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وَقَالَ رَبُّكُمُ ادْعُونِي أَسْتَجِبْ لَكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ عَنْ عِبَادَتِي سَيَدْخُلُونَ جَهَنَّمَ دَاخِرِينَ

And your Lord says, “Call upon me, I will respond to you.” Indeed those who disdain my worship will enter Hell contemptible. [40:60]

Allāh uses the word “ادعوني”, which means “call upon me”. But then, He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) moves on to say “عبادتي”—what does this mean? Clearly, invocation or supplication is, in fact, prayer. The root word of ادعوني is دعا, which carries the meaning of calling, supplicating, praying, and invoking.

Those who refrain from calling Allāh are disdainful of his worship, and will be forced to enter Hell, in a disgraceful, shameful state. That is what Allāh is saying. O’ mankind! Will you still call His servants instead of Him?!

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وَإِذَا سَأَلَكَ عِبَادِي عَنِّي فَإِنِّي قَرِيبٌ أُجِيبُ دَعْوَةَ الدَّاعِ إِذَا دَعَانِ

And when my servant asks about me, then indeed I am near. I answer the call of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to me and believe in me so that they may be rightly guided. [2:186]

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وَنَحْنُ أَقْرَبُ إِلَيْهِ مِنْ حَبْلِ الْوَرِيدِ

And We are nearer to him (man) than his jugular vein. [50:16]

After all this exhortation from Allāh to his servants to call upon Him, would you still shy away from invoking him?

Under the tafsīr of verse 2:186, ʿAllāmah Ṭabāṭabā’ī has quoted the following ḥadīth:

Imām aṣ-Ṣādiq narrates from the Prophet ﷺ:

“Allāh informed one of his prophets in a revelation: ‘By My Power and dignity! Verily, I shall change into despair the hope of everyone who hoped from other than Me, and I shall dress him with the clothing of disgrace before people, and I shall remove him from My relief and bounty. Does my servant put his hope in other than Me in hardships, while hardships are in My hand? And does he expect anything from other than Me, while I am the Self-sufficient, the Munificent? In My hand are the keys of the doors, while they are closed; and My door is open for the one who calls on Me.’”

The Prophet ﷺ also said:

“Allah said: “No creature seeks refuge in another creature, leaving Me, but that I cut off all the means in the heavens and the earth for him. Then if he asks from Me, I do not give him ; and if he calls on Me, I do not answer him. And no creature seeks refuge in Me, leaving My creatures, but that I make the heaven and the earth responsible for his sustenance; then if he calls on Me, I answer him and, if he seeks pardon from Me, I forgive!””

[Source: Al-Mīzān fī Tafsīr al-Qur’ān, where the author quotes from ʿUddatud Dāʿī]

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Despite these clear-cut verses from the Book of Allāh, people still try to argue in favor of istighāthā by quoting Nādi ʿAlī or Duʿā Tawassul.

Nādi ʿAlī is not a duʿā, it is a poem. It is not from the A’immah (عليه السلام) of Ahlulbayt. It was never in the primary ḥadīth sources, only somehow appeared in later works.

Duʿā Tawassul is also not from any of the Imāms, it was only found by ʿAllāmah Majlisī in an old manuscript that he thought was from Shaykh aṣ-Ṣadūq (who lived 700 years before Majlisī) and it was written on the paper that it was from the Imāms but did not even mention which of the Imāms. It does not have a sanad or “chain of transmission”. Hence, it is considered ḍaʿīf or weak.

For verification of this claim, refer to this article published by Shia Reformist.

These were likely the fabrications of the exaggerators (ghulāt). Imām ar-Riḍā (عليه السلام). in Rijāl al-Kashī has cursed the exaggerators (i.e., those who did ghuluww; esp. those that used to fabricate narrations and attribute them to the Imāms). In the same narration, he ((عليه السلام).) also said that whatever contradicts the Qur’ān can not be from the Ahlulbayt. Same is corroborated by many narrations in Uṣūl Al-Kāfī, from Imām Jaʿfar aṣ-Ṣādiq (عليه السلام). 

Authored by: Muḥammad Qā’im Ḥusayn

[Ethics]

10 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Here comes the layman Shia’s first question: “That seems illogical, how can it be said that “seeking/asking for help” is reserved for Allāh alone? Do we not seek help from other human beings like family, friends, doctors, teachers, strangers, and so on? Are we then flouting and violating an Islamic law by seeking help from the creation of Allāh, while it is reserved for the Creator alone?” The answer to this question is very simple, “Asking for help from anyone who is alive and present in front of you is allowed and unproblematic, but seeking assistance from someone who is behind the curtain of ghayb is prohibited, because ghaybī assistance is from Allāh alone.”

Astagfirullah ???????????? ^^^^^^^

My guy you didnt need to type all that up. I hope you reread your post before you posted it.

10 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Despite having memorized “You alone we worship and You alone we ask for help” [1:5] since childhood and hopefully reciting the verse at least 10 times a day in our daily prayers, it seems like we haven’t understood the message of it

Yaaa really seems like you haven't bud. You are committing kuffur and shirk by your own contradictory ideology when you are constantly depending on other than Allah aka humans and inanimate objects. So before you write an article without going to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly, on your holier than thou cause of condemning others and accusing people of shirk, you might wanna reeducate yourself first.

Edited June 9 by Ethics

[Muhammad Qaim]

26 minutes ago, Ethics said:

Yaaa really seems like you haven't bud. You are committing kuffur and shirk by your own contradictory ideology when you are constantly depending on other than Allah aka humans and inanimate objects. So before you write an article without going to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly, on your holier than thou cause of condemning others and accusing people of shirk, you might wanna reeducate yourself first.

"Calling upon someone to ask for help" and "depending on physical means to accomplish a task" are two different things. I do not see how that is a contradictory ideology.

Also, I would like you to elaborate on what made you say "astaghfirullah" to that specific part of my post.

I wrote this lengthy article as a sort of persuasive/compelling essay a few weeks ago, and pasted it to this site for exactly what you are doing—critique. I value and appreciate it, because that helps me rectify my flawed reasoning and understand the other side better. So please forgive me if I came off as "holier than thou" or accusatory towards a particular group of people. My intent is to discuss, debate and challenge already held ideas and beliefs and test their veridicality with Qur'an, and this is a topic that has always piqued my interest.

My issue here is with "istighatha" particularly, and not "tawassul". 

Maybe you misconstrued my argument or maybe I did not fully understand what you find problematic with what I have said. 

Also, if upon reading you have found whatever I have written down to be absolutely nonsensical, then it leaves us, at least, with all the verses that I have quoted. We could have some back and forth on what your point of view is regarding their import and exegesis and how relevant they are to the topic under discussion. 

[layman]

13 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

“Asking for help from anyone who is alive and present in front of you is allowed and unproblematic, but seeking assistance from someone who is behind the curtain of ghayb is prohibited, because ghaybī assistance is from Allāh alone.

Is this statement above is your own opinion?

What about verses of Qur'an on 

اِنَّمَا وَلِیُّکُمُ اللّٰہُ وَ رَسُوۡلُہٗ وَ الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوا الَّذِیۡنَ

یُقِیۡمُوۡنَ الصَّلٰوۃَ وَ یُؤۡتُوۡنَ الزَّکٰوۃَ وَ ہُمۡ رٰکِعُوۡنَ

“Verily your guardian is Allah and His Messenger and those who accept faith and establish prayer and give zakat while they are bowing down.” (5:55)

Why the guardianship of all humans belong to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Imam Ali(عليه السلام)? All 3 are not in physical form now?  They must be present and accessible to us to be our Wali.

Why we read in Quran that we must make obedience to these 3, and can't even communicate with them and ask for help?  Why the word Ulil Amri is used? Ulil Amri means what if they are not physically infornt of you?

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ

“O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you.” (Qur’an, Surah Nisa 4:59)

Please qoute the Surah alFatiha in full.

[Shakir 1:1] In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
[Shakir 1:2] All praise is due to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
[Shakir 1:3] The Beneficent, the Merciful.
[Shakir 1:4] Master of the Day of Judgment.
[Shakir 1:5] Thee do we serve and Thee do we beseech for help.
[Shakir 1:6] Keep us on the right path.
[Shakir 1:7] The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors. Not (the path) of those upon whom Thy wrath is brought down, nor of those who go astray.

Yes, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) alone we worship and beseech for help.  But, we need to know the correct or approvedbways to worship and seek help.  The only ways to worship and seek help directly from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is through the Prophet and Imams. Otherwise syaitan, who are not physically seen, can be with us.  Our Prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Imams (عليه السلام)must be with us when we worship and seek help from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  That is why we say salam toward the end of our salah (daily prayers)..Otherwise we be like Syaitans and Umar who believe Qur'an is sufficient.

But according to OP , our Wali are not accessible because they are dead.  This is ACCORDING to the opinion of the OP of this thread.

Please read the book Light Within Me.... how we can enter into the spiritual dimension.  

 

Shakir[Shakir 2:1] Alif Lam Mim.
[Shakir 2:2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
[Shakir 2:3] Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
[Shakir 2:4] And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
[Shakir 2:5] These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful. 

We cannot "be sure" (yaqiin) of hereafter unless we are there.  We cannot be there or witness the hereafter unless our Wali bring us there to witness it.  Otherwise, we cannot be successful.  Our Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Imams (عليه السلام) have been bestowed with favors.... as in Surah al Fatiha.

Wallahualam,

Layman.

 

[Ethics]

4 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

"Calling upon someone to ask for help" and "depending on physical means to accomplish a task" are two different things. I do not see how that is a contradictory ideology.

But it is contradictory in totality. You claim you can ask help from humans, what is your proof? The verses you have quoted do not say nor hint at such a thing. Each verse is with Allah alone as I have quoted you above. That is the most basic definition of a contradiction. Also one simple example to nullify what you are claiming is literally calling someone to help you physically. You can also help someone virtually through the internet, or across the world, yet it can still be both physical and non physical help, which again brings an issue with the ideology you claim comes along with the verses you quote.

 

4 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Also, I would like you to elaborate on what made you say "astaghfirullah" to that specific part of my post.

You said calling on a human who is alive to help you is okay, but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) clearly says CALL ON ME ALONE for help! Hence you are disobeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and committing shirk.

Edited June 10 by Ethics

[Muhammad Qaim]

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

But it is contradictory in totality. You claim you can ask help from humans, what is your proof? The verses you have quoted do not say nor hint at such a thing. Each verse is with Allah alone as I have quoted you above. That is the most basic definition of a contradiction. Also one simple example to nullify what you are claiming is literally calling someone to help you physically. You can also help someone virtually through the internet, or across the world, yet it can still be both physical and non physical help, which again brings an issue with the ideology you claim comes along with the verses you quote.

 

You said calling on a human who is alive to help you is okay, but Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) clearly says CALL ON ME ALONE for help! Hence you are disobeying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and committing shirk.

Okay, let us break down your argument:

What is my proof that you can ask help from humans? 

I will show you an example from the Qur'an: "Help one another in acts of piety and righteousness" [Surah Ma'idah (5), verse 2]

Another example: "And the one from his faction called for help to him against the one from his enemy, so Musa struck him and [unintentionally] killed him" [Surah Qasas (28), verse 15]

In both the examples from the Qur'an, neither the seeker nor the giver of help is in ghayb. Musa helped his Shia when he called out to him—but it was only when Musa had entered the city that his follower called out to him. 

I think you have conflated my point about "depending on physical means" — yes of course, you can help someone virtually through the internet — but it is still a means of reach that is earthly which allows you to communicate using technology which by nature is physical. You're going way too deep into this.

What I am trying to say is that seeking divine help according to the Qur'an is reserved for Allah alone. That means the only istighatha we can do is to Allah.

What is the problem if we call upon the Infallibles (عليه السلام). to help us? Well, if I or you can call out to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). and every other person on the earth can call out to him (عليه السلام). too, then that would mean Imam Ali (عليه السلام). can hear everybody that calls out to him, and that would make him All-Hearing. Because why would it be that he (عليه السلام). hears one person but does not hear the other? If you give that attribute to Imam Ali (عليه السلام)., then I would say you are entering dangerous territory.

Again, why? It is not my opinion. Did you not read Surah Fatir verse 13-15? "If you call them they do not hear you, and if they could hear you they would not respond to you, and on the day of judgement will deny your shirk."

There you have it, I have given my proof. 

[Muhammad Qaim]

5 hours ago, layman said:

Is this statement above is your own opinion?

and those who accept faith and establish prayer and give zakat while they are bowing down.” (5:55)

Why the guardianship of all humans belong to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Imam Ali(عليه السلام)? All 3 are not in physical form now?  They must be present and accessible to us to be our Wali.

Why we read in Quran that we must make obedience to these 3, and can't even communicate with them and ask for help?  Why the word Ulil Amri is used? Ulil Amri means what if they are not physically infornt of you?

“O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you.” (Qur’an, Surah Nisa 4:59)

The above statement is not my opinion, it is a conclusion that I have arrived upon by studying a number of verses from the Qur'an.

There are problems with you presenting the verse of wilayah and the verse of obedience to prove your point about istighatha because of the following reasons:

1) The verses do not talk about calling upon these personalities. As for calling upon Allah, that is proven by other verses.

2) I think you have conflated the concept of wilayah and istighathah. Wilayah is like Imamah, and is related to obedience, just like the verse 4:59 tells us to obey "those in authority from among you" — how does it vindicate seeking help? The word for calling upon is أدعو, not أطيعو. 

3) I did not exactly say that they are dead—I just said that they are in a realm where neither we can perceive them, nor they can perceive us. They are just like shuhada or martyrs where they are alive with their lord receiving sustenance, they are marzooq not raaziq. My God, did you all not read the above discourse at all? I think I have discussed this in detail.

4) Obedience to Allah, the Prophet (S) and Imams (عليه السلام). can be carried out through learning their teachings from books and scholars. What does that have to do with communication and help? Allah in the Qur'an says: And who is better in religion than one who submits himself to Allah while being a doer of good and follows the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth? So does that now mean that in order to be better in religion and follow the monotheistic millah of Ibrahim (عليه السلام). we need to be able to communicate with him? I do not see how that follows.

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s, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) alone we worship and beseech for help.  But, we need to know the correct or approvedbways to worship and seek help. 

I have not denied tawassul. If you say, "Ya Allah, I ask your help through the wasilah of the Prophet (S) and the Imams (عليه السلام)." — I have no problem with that. This can be counted as a correct and approved method of seeking help. If you want to resort to an intermediary, that is fine. 

But my problem is when you are not calling Allah, but instead beseeching the Infallibles (عليه السلام). directly (for example, Ya Ali (عليه السلام). help me) — that is where you are making a mistake. Why? Read the following verse: "And those you call upon other than Him do not possess the thread of a date-stone. If you call upon them, they do not hear you, and if heard you they could not respond to you. And on the day of Judgement they will deny your shirk"

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The only ways to worship and seek help directly from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is through the Prophet and Imams. Otherwise syaitan, who are not physically seen, can be with us.  Our Prophet((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Imams (عليه السلام)must be with us when we worship and seek help from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Is this statement your own opinion? What is your proof for that claim? 

Let us, for the sake of argument, accept that you can seek help from the Imams (عليه السلام). and the Prophet (S). Fine. That is out of the way. Even then, what you have said completely baffles me. What is your proof when saying that we can "worship" Allah through the Prophet (S) and Imams? What does that mean? 

What is your proof that the the Prophet (S) and Imams ((عليه السلام).) are with you when you worship?

You said "the Prophet and Imamsm ust be with us when we worship" — Wow! I've never even heard of that statement from any Muslim I've encountered so far? Help was fine up until now, but worship?! عباده!? 

 

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Otherwise we be like Syaitans and Umar who believe Qur'an is sufficient.

That is every more illogical. How did we get here? From where on earth did you conclude that our discussion has anything to do with hasbuna kitaballah (the book of Allah is sufficient for us). 

Did you not read the ahadith that I quoted from Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) and the Prophet (S)? That was not Qur'an, that was hadith?

How can you imply that I am in any way insinuating that Qur'an is sufficient?

 

6 hours ago, layman said:

We cannot "be sure" (yaqiin) of hereafter unless we are there.  We cannot be there or witness the hereafter unless our Wali bring us there to witness it.  Otherwise, we cannot be successful.  Our Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Imams (عليه السلام) have been bestowed with favors.... as in Surah al Fatiha.

Again, this is a flimsy argument. 

First of all, how can you not have yaqeen of akhirah unless you are there? Do you believe in Allah? Have you seen Allah? No, right? Does that negate your belief in God? No.

Have you seen the Prophet (S)? But do you believe that he was a true Prophet (S) who brought the message of Islam and we have to follow his (S) teachings? You do. If so, then how does your point stand ground about akhirah or qiyamah?

You said "we can not be there or witness the hereafter unless our Wali brings us there to witness it" — where does the verse say that your "wali" will bring you to the day of Judgement?

Allah says: "How can you disbelieve in Allah when you were lifeless and He brought you to life; then He will cause you to die, then He will bring you back to life, and then to Him you will be returnedI" [Surah Baqarah, verse 28]

So, you see, it is Allah who will resurrect you on the day of Judgement, not your "wali". Your "wali" will not bring you back to life to witness qiyamah. That is a baseless argument. Your wali will be your "intercessor" on the day of Judgement. That means they will do "shafa'at". That is not at all related to beseeching them for help.

[Cool]

21 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

It is to put emphasis on the “You only/alone” part. “Seeking help” is very similar to the act of “worship” in the manner that both are reserved, by how this verse reads, for Allāh, and no one else

The OP is an example of the verse:

أَفَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِبَعْضِ الْكِتَابِ وَتَكْفُرُونَ بِبَعْضٍ

(Do you, then, believe in some parts of the divine writ and deny the truth of other parts?)

There is no debate on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), so with the poor understanding of اياك نستعين, the OP has refuted himself. Nothing really is needed to counter this self-refuting article. As for seeking help from Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), people, in his "apparent" life on earth, called him for help and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made obligatory on him to help the people:

وَإِنِ اسْتَنصَرُوكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ فَعَلَيْكُمُ النَّصْرُ

As for the word نسعين، the OP himself mentioned صبر & صلاة from the quranic verses. What are these two things? Are they Allah?

What is صلاة according to Quran and what is sabr? 

وَأَقِمِ الصَّلَاةَ لِذِكْرِي

(and keep up prayer for My remembrance)

What is His remembrance? Only saying "Subhan Allahe wal hamdo lillahe wa la ilaha ilAllaho waAllaho Akbar" is His ذكر? What is ذكر & who are the اهل الذكر according to Quran?

The معيت of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) with the صابرين doesn't hold any meaning for you? 

Note that, for us, صبر & صلاة are the very beings of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams عليهم السلام. Neither the مفهوم of sabr & salah can be extrapolated without them nor the meaning & neither the exercise of these two can be known. So if you ask me what is sabr & what is salah, I will point towards the lives of these blessed personalities and would say "these are the sabr & salah". Similarly, these blessed personalities are the "speaking book" (كتاب الناطق/قرأن الناطق). 

Now come to the verses which we accept and you have avoided discussing them:

قَالُوا يَا أَبَانَا اسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا خَاطِئِينَ {97}

[Shakir 12:97] They said: O our father! ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners.

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا {64}

[Shakir 4:64] And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

Why the brothers of Prophet Yusuf (عليه السلام) asked help from their father? Why the companions came to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for asking forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? And why did the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) asked forgiveness for them if the companions never asked his help? 

Perhaps you need to cite this verse as well before expressing your deep rooted ignorance;

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْفُرُونَ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَيُرِيدُونَ أَن يُفَرِّقُواْ بَيْنَ اللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَيقُولُونَ نُؤْمِنُ بِبَعْضٍ وَنَكْفُرُ بِبَعْضٍ وَيُرِيدُونَ أَن يَتَّخِذُواْ بَيْنَ ذَلِكَ سَبِيلاً

4:150

 

[Muhammad Qaim]

@Cool 

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There is no debate on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), so with the poor understanding of اياك نستعين, the OP has refuted himself. Nothing really is needed to counter this self-refuting article.

Oh really? Then why do I find your refutation so tenuous if my article is self-refuting? 

Let me ask you this one question: In your life, when you need assistance you ask others for help, be they friends, family, strangers, etc. and when you need divine help, you turn to Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a. or the Imams (عليه السلام). Of course I am not insinuating that you consider them independent of Allah—I am well aware that every Shi'i who calls out to the Imams (عليه السلام). does so because he/she thinks that these people have been given authority from Allah to listen to people who call on them, answer their calls, and fulfill their needs. 

If this is the case, then what kind of help is Allah talking about in verse 1:5? What case is Allah talking about where the word "iyyaka" is used? If my interpretation of the verse is poor and wrong, then can you give your own?

 

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As for seeking help from Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), people, in his "apparent" life on earth, called him for help and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made obligatory on him to help the people:

وَإِنِ اسْتَنصَرُوكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ فَعَلَيْكُمُ النَّصْرُ

I absolutely agree with you here, brother! During Rasulullah's (S) life on this earth, people did call upon him and he (S) did help them, and he was obligated to do so because of the command of Allah. 

But where on earth does this verse legitimize asking the Prophet (S) after his life on earth has ended and now that he (S) is no longer with us, but in a realm wit his (S) Lord receiving sustenance? 

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As for the word نسعين، the OP himself mentioned صبر & صلاة from the quranic verses. What are these two things? Are they Allah?

A very flimsy argument! Salah is basically the act of worshipping Allah. Salah is something the Prophet (S) and Imams (عليه السلام). themselves performed. 

Yes, they are NOT Allah. But they are NOT the Prophet (S) or the Imams (عليه السلام). either. Do not try to give an esoteric meaning to these terms. Salah is the act of worshipping Allah. All believers do it. And during that, their attention is focused on Allah alone, there is no intermediary in between. Same was the case with our Infallibles (عليه السلام). They also used to pray to Allah.

I have quoted a tradition from Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (عليه السلام). where he said that when Imam Ali used to face a difficulty he used to pray and recite this verse.

How can you neglect this act of the Imam (عليه السلام). and instead try to extrapolate the terms salah and sabr to mean the Prophet (S) and the Imams?

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What is صلاة according to Quran and what is sabr? 

وَأَقِمِ الصَّلَاةَ لِذِكْرِي

(and keep up prayer for My remembrance)

What is His remembrance? Only saying "Subhan Allahe wal hamdo lillahe wa la ilaha ilAllaho waAllaho Akbar" is His ذكر? What is ذكر & who are the اهل الذكر according to Quran?

The verse you have quoted [20:14] does not in anyway prove calling upon others than Allah. It is an injunction to the Prophet (S):

And I have chosen you, so listen to what is revealed [to you]. Indeed, I am Allah. There is no deity except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance. [20:13-14]

I do not understand how you can relate this clear verse to istighathah (the act of calling upon other than Allah). If according to you, ذكر refers to the Prophets and Imams, then tell me what ذكر did the Prophet himself do in order to fulfill the command given in this verse?

The verse is clear, when the Prophet (S) prays, the only being that he (S) turns his attention to is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) — that is why Allah says "لذكري". 

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The معيت of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) with the صابرين doesn't hold any meaning for you? 

Instead of arguing your point, you are just using rhetoric. The معيت of Allah with the patient ones means that Allah strengthens them with His help.

It is not the association of Allah with His own creations. It does not mean that instead of saying "Ya Allah help me", you say "Ya Ali help me". It's a big leap you are taking, jumping to erroneous conclusions.

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Note that, for us, صبر & صلاة are the very beings of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams عليهم السلام. Neither the مفهوم of sabr & salah can be extrapolated without them nor the meaning & neither the exercise of these two can be known. So if you ask me what is sabr & what is salah, I will point towards the lives of these blessed personalities and would say "these are the sabr & salah". Similarly, these blessed personalities are the "speaking book" (كتاب الناطق/قرأن الناطق). 

This is pure speculation, and your perspective is not backed by the Quran. 

This is the type of argument that mawlanas on the pulpits come up with. Salah and sabr are two acts that were performed by the Infallibles (عليه السلام). in their noble lives. They are not the very "beings" of them. 

The مفهوم of salah and sabr can not be understood without "their teachings"—and the Imams (عليه السلام). did not teach what you are stating. They did not tell us that they are the very beings of sabr and salah. Rather, they were the personalities that led exemplary lives and showed us the pinnacle of salah and sabr. That does not mean they became one with salah and sabr. 

You should point to these holy personalities and say—"These are the people who have taught us what is sabr and salah". A similar concept is them being قرآن الناطق — that means that whatever best traits of believers are mentioned in the Qur'an, none can exceed or excel the Prophet (S) and Imams (عليه السلام). in these qualities, they are the best who prayed and observed patience. 

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Now come to the verses which we accept and you have avoided discussing them:

قَالُوا يَا أَبَانَا اسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا خَاطِئِينَ {97}

[Shakir 12:97] They said: O our father! ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners.

وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ رَسُولٍ إِلَّا لِيُطَاعَ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا {64}

[Shakir 4:64] And We did not send any messenger but that he should be obeyed by Allah's permission; and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

Why the brothers of Prophet Yusuf (عليه السلام) asked help from their father? Why the companions came to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for asking forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)? And why did the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) asked forgiveness for them if the companions never asked his help? 

I have not avoided discussing these verses. The only thing is, my point is not refuted by these verses. 

When the sons of Ya'qub (عليه السلام). came to him and asked him to pray for their forgiveness, Ya'qub (عليه السلام). was not in ghayb. Same is the case with those believers that Allah commanded to approach the Prophet (S) for him to pray for them and judge between them. 

Believe me, if the Prophet (S) and Imams ((عليه السلام).) were with us as of right now, outside the realm of ghayb, and we could reach them, I would be the first one to ask them to pray for my forgiveness. 

But we can not, since they are not present in this zaahiri realm as of right now. 

This verse does not prove istighatha, my friend. It is your flawed perspective that leads you to cite these verses thinking they prove the opposite point. 

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Perhaps you need to cite this verse as well before expressing your deep rooted ignorance;

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْفُرُونَ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَيُرِيدُونَ أَن يُفَرِّقُواْ بَيْنَ اللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَيقُولُونَ نُؤْمِنُ بِبَعْضٍ وَنَكْفُرُ بِبَعْضٍ وَيُرِيدُونَ أَن يَتَّخِذُواْ بَيْنَ ذَلِكَ سَبِيلاً

4:150

What a hypocritical accusation! I have already shown you how the verses you quoted do not prove your point, and negated your arguments. How about you shying away from discussing the import of these verses:

وَالَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِهِ مَا يَمْلِكُونَ مِن قِطْمِيرٍ ‎

إِن تَدْعُوهُمْ لَا يَسْمَعُوا دُعَاءَكُمْ وَلَوْ سَمِعُوا مَا اسْتَجَابُوا لَكُمْ ۖ وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يَكْفُرُونَ بِشِرْكِكُمْ

And those you call besides Him do not posses even a qitmir. If you call them, they do not hear you, and if they heard you, they can not answer your invocation. And on the day of qiyamah, they will deny your shirk

Who is ignoring part of the Book now, huh?

How about this one:

قُلِ ادْعُوا الَّذِينَ زَعَمْتُم مِّن دُونِهِ فَلَا يَمْلِكُونَ كَشْفَ الضُّرِّ عَنكُمْ وَلَا تَحْوِيلًا

أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ يَبْتَغُونَ إِلَىٰ رَبِّهِمُ الْوَسِيلَةَ أَيُّهُمْ أَقْرَبُ وَيَرْجُونَ رَحْمَتَهُ وَيَخَافُونَ عَذَابَهُ ۚ إِنَّ عَذَابَ رَبِّكَ كَانَ مَحْذُورًا

Say, call those you have claimed besides him, for they do not possess the power of removal of adversity nor to bring about any change in your state. They [themselves] are the ones who supplicate, seeking a recourse to their Lord, whoever is nearer, expecting His mercy and fearing His punishment.’ Indeed your Lord’s punishment is a thing to beware of.

What kind of deep-rooted "wisdom" led you to ignore these verses that I very clearly quoted in my article?

Also, it is clear from their text that الذين in these verses does not talk about idols of the kuffar since 1) Idols do not supplicate to Allah or seek recourse to him 2) In Surah Fatir, all the humans الناس have been addressed, not كفار or مشركين specifically.

 

[Muhammad Qaim]

How does this site work? Does each and every post and reply need to be approved by a moderator before it gets posted? It takes way too long before any of my replies appear. Is this going to go away as I progress as a user?

[Cool]

3 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Then why do I find your refutation so tenuous if my article is self-refuting? 

lol, I haven't even tried to refute your self-refuting article. 

3 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

In your life, when you need assistance you ask others for help, be they friends, family, strangers, etc. and when you need divine help, you turn to Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a. or the Imams (عليه السلام).

Your problem is that you can't even comprehend that the help from any friend is also the divine help. 

وَمَا النَّصْرُ إِلاَّ مِنْ عِندِ اللّهِ الْعَزِيزِ الْحَكِيمِ

3 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

because he/she thinks that these people have been given authority from Allah to listen to people who call on them, answer their calls, and fulfill their needs. 

As for the bolded part, yes according to Quran, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams are witness over us and are the bearers of divine covenant. 

Do you reject these Quranic verses?

As for the underlined part, you have no idea of what wilayah is!! And neither can you understand the Quranic concept tawassul & istighatha. 

3 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

If this is the case, then what kind of help is Allah talking about in verse 1:5? What case is Allah talking about where the word "iyyaka" is used?

lol, perhaps the signs never reminds you the God Almighty. As I mentioned earlier, help always comes from "one" source i.e., Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

3 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

If my interpretation of the verse is poor and wrong, then can you give your own?

Yes I can, but I am not willing to do that now.

3 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

During Rasulullah's (S) life on this earth, people did call upon him and he (S) did help them, and he was obligated to do so because of the command of Allah. 

But where on earth does this verse legitimize asking the Prophet (S) after his life on earth has ended and now that he (S) is no longer with us, but in a realm wit his (S) Lord receiving sustenance? 

First of all, I would ask you the "nass" of your apparent claim that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) cannot help anyone after his departure from this world. And secondly, did the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) even helped someone out of "his own will" (i.e., without divine command) while he was present among us? 

So Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) cannot come in the dream of any pious servant of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & cannot command him anything or cannot solve any of his problem of any sort? 

3 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Salah is basically the act of worshipping Allah.

 

4 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Salah is something the Prophet (S) and Imams (عليه السلام). themselves performed.

So through them you get to salah. And salah has many meanings as well. The dua of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is also mentioned as صلاة:

خُذْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ صَدَقَةً تُطَهِّرُهُمْ وَتُزَكِّيهِم بِهَا وَصَلِّ عَلَيْهِمْ إِنَّ صَلاَتَكَ سَكَنٌ لَّهُمْ وَاللّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ

Durood on Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is also known as الصلاة على النبي. 

So wich meaning is intended in the verse واستعينوا بالصبر و الصلاة? 

I know salat as ذكر, and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as ذكر too. For me, remembering the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams عليهم السلام tantamount to remember Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and that is solely because of the vertical hierarchy in the system of wilayah. 

4 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

The verse you have quoted [20:14] does not in anyway prove calling upon others than Allah

lol, I have quoted that for mentioning what salah is!! 

4 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

If according to you, ذكر refers to the Prophets and Imams, then tell me what ذكر did the Prophet himself do in order to fulfill the command given in this verse?

ذكر has a broader meaning, it is not limited to the very being of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). He (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is indeed ذكر and mentioned by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by this name in Quran.  

ذكر of Ali (عليه السلام) is also ibadah, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams did that ذكر too throughout their lives. This is just one example, durood is ذكر too, almost every supplication of Imams عليهم السلام include the durood.

4 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

The verse is clear, when the Prophet (S) prays, the only being that he (S) turns his attention to is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) — that is why Allah says "لذكري". 

 In fact He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) deserve that everyone should turn his attention toward Him all the time. Not for just two minutes in fajar prayer or for just 5 minutes in Zohar prayers.

4 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

This is pure speculation, and your perspective is not backed by the Quran

The moment you realize what is sabr & what is salah, your problem and disagreement would vanish. 

4 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Salah and sabr are two acts that were performed by the Infallibles (عليه السلام). in their noble lives. They are not the very "beings" of them. 

Similarly, Quran is a book which these blessed personalities have recited throughout their lives and acted upon it. We call them Quran e Natiq as well. 

Perhaps you would doubt that these blessed personalities are the "divine words" (كلمات الله). It is not my problem, raise your level of ma'rifah and understand these blessed personalities. Or you are free to say I am doing ghuluw.

4 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

The مفهوم of salah and sabr can not be understood without "their teachings"

So you have to take their help to understand the مفهوم, what would you do to understand the حقيقة of sabr & salah? 

Sabr comes from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى):

ربنا افرغ علينا صبرا

There is a strong relationship between exercising the sabr and the khabar:

و كيف تصبر على ما لم تحط به خبرا

I am holding here to check your level of intelligence. I would respond to rest of your post later.

 

[Muslim2010]

14 hours ago, layman said:

Is this statement above is your own opinion?

What about verses of Qur'an on 

اِنَّمَا وَلِیُّکُمُ اللّٰہُ وَ رَسُوۡلُہٗ وَ الَّذِیۡنَ اٰمَنُوا الَّذِیۡنَ

یُقِیۡمُوۡنَ الصَّلٰوۃَ وَ یُؤۡتُوۡنَ الزَّکٰوۃَ وَ ہُمۡ رٰکِعُوۡنَ

“Verily your guardian is Allah and His Messenger and those who accept faith and establish prayer and give zakat while they are bowing down.” (5:55)

Why the guardianship of all humans belong to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Imam Ali(عليه السلام)? All 3 are not in physical form now?  They must be present and accessible to us to be our Wali.

Why we read in Quran that we must make obedience to these 3, and can't even communicate with them and ask for help?  Why the word Ulil Amri is used? Ulil Amri means what if they are not physically infornt of you?

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا أَطِيعُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُوا الرَّسُولَ وَأُولِي الْأَمْرِ مِنْكُمْ

“O you who believe! obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those in authority from among you.” (Qur’an, Surah Nisa 4:59)

 

1 hour ago, Cool said:

ذكر of Ali (عليه السلام) is also ibadah, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams did that ذكر too throughout their lives. This is just one example, durood is ذكر too, almost every supplication of Imams عليهم السلام include the durood.

 In fact He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) deserve that everyone should turn his attention toward Him all the time. Not for just two minutes in fajar prayer or for just 5 minutes in Zohar prayers.

The moment you realize what is sabr & what is salah, your problem and disagreement would vanish. 

Similarly, Quran is a book which these blessed personalities have recited throughout their lives and acted upon it. We call them Quran e Natiq as well. 

Perhaps you would doubt that these blessed personalities are the "divine words" (كلمات الله). It is not my problem, raise your level of ma'rifah and understand these blessed personalities. Or you are free to say I am doing ghuluw.

So you have to take their help to understand the مفهوم, what would you do to understand the حقيقة of sabr & salah? 

Sabr comes from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى):

ربنا افرغ علينا صبرا

There is a strong relationship between exercising the sabr and the khabar:

و كيف تصبر على ما لم تحط به خبرا

I am holding here to check your level of intelligence. I would respond to rest of your post later.

 

WALi and their Authority:

1-    We need to know in the light of Quranic verses that who are Wali?

2-    What is the Authority of Wali?

Any one who like to see further details about the concept and diemnsions of Wilayah as described in the verses of quran, the following link may be seen:

 

wasalam

Edited June 10 by Muslim2010

[Cool]

6 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

You should point to these holy personalities and say—"These are the people who have taught us what is sabr and salah". A similar concept is them being قرآن الناطق — that means that whatever best traits of believers are mentioned in the Qur'an, none can exceed or excel the Prophet (S) and Imams (عليه السلام). in these qualities, they are the best who prayed and observed patience. 

These sort of سطحي understanding is for you. When I am viewing Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams as sabr & sabireen, salah etc., an in depth study is behind my understanding. 

6 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

The only thing is, my point is not refuted by these verses. 

lol, your post is "self-refuting" and I mentioned that in the beginning. The central idea you raised was:

On 6/9/2023 at 2:49 PM, Muhammad Qaim said:

 “Asking for help from anyone (1) who is alive and present in front of you is allowed and unproblematic, but seeking assistance from someone (2) who is behind the curtain of ghayb is prohibited, because ghaybī assistance is from Allāh alone.

# 1 negates asking help from the Ever-Living God as He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is absolute ghayb.

Unless you gain that sight which lets you feel yourself in divine presence. Similarly you have to gain the sight to feel yourself present when you say:

السلام عليك ايها النبي

And when you testify:

اشهد ان محمد رسول الله

How would you translate this testimony? "I bear witness that Muhammad "was" His Prophet" or would you mean "I bear witness that Muhammaf "is" His prophet"? 

# 2 is putting a limit on divine help by stating that only ghaybi assistance is from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). While we believe that the source of "every" help is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), may it be ظاهري or باطني. 

 وَاذْكُرُواْ إِذْ كُنتُمْ قَلِيلاً فَكَثَّرَكُمْ

You forgot He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is مقلب القلوب

Moreover, even though Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is not among us, yet we are taking help from him and you too (example are the اسوة & سيرة of Prophet), yet you have the courage to say "seeking help from someone who is behind the curtain of ghayb is prohibited". 

Lastly, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is a witness too. And this role has been granted to him by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (according to many verses of Quran), He is the bearer of that divine covenant which makes him شافع المذنبين، he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), in his very being، is the divine mercy for the worlds. So technically, he cannot stay out of the mind of anyone who turns towards Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in repentance and/or is seeking divine mercy. 

6 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

How about you shying away from discussing the import of these verses:

وَالَّذِينَ تَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِهِ مَا يَمْلِكُونَ مِن قِطْمِيرٍ

That should be very shameful for you to present the messenger of Allah against Allah, that is the very reason I quoted the verse:

8 hours ago, Cool said:

 

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَكْفُرُونَ بِاللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَيُرِيدُونَ أَن يُفَرِّقُواْ بَيْنَ اللّهِ وَرُسُلِهِ وَيقُولُونَ نُؤْمِنُ بِبَعْضٍ وَنَكْفُرُ بِبَعْضٍ وَيُرِيدُونَ أَن يَتَّخِذُواْ بَيْنَ ذَلِكَ سَبِيلاً

4:150

Do you really want to extinguish that which is mentioned as نور الله ? 

يُرِيدُونَ لِيُطْفِئُوا نُورَ اللَّهِ بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ وَاللَّهُ مُتِمُّ نُورِهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْكَافِرُونَ {8}

[Shakir 61:8] They desire to put out the light of Allah with their mouths but Allah will perfect His light, though the unbelievers may be averse.

So it is upon you to prove to us few things;

1. What makes our words "dua" and what makes them "istightha"? 

2. The very beings of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams cannot be our "wasilah".

3. If calling other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is shirk, why you call Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in your salah by saying:

السلام عليك ايها النبي

4. And that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams عليهم السلام cannot help us by doing istaghfaar for us. They cannot listen to our salutation and istighatha and yet they are the divinely appointed witnesses 

6 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Believe me, if the Prophet (S) and Imams ((عليه السلام).) were with us as of right now, outside the realm of ghayb, and we could reach them, I would be the first one to ask them to pray for my forgiveness.

Your short-sightedness is pathetic indeed. 

How pathetic is that you think that you can help Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Apostle by staying in ghayb but not the Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Apostle!!

وَلِيَعْلَمَ اللَّهُ مَنْ يَنْصُرُهُ وَرُسُلَهُ بِالْغَيْبِ

And how pathetic is that when anyone helps you, you think the apparent helper as your helper and forget the real helper!! 

كُلًّا نُمِدُّ هَٰؤُلَاءِ وَهَٰؤُلَاءِ مِنْ عَطَاءِ رَبِّكَ ۚ وَمَا كَانَ عَطَاءُ رَبِّكَ مَحْظُورًا {20}

[Shakir 17:20] All do We aid-- these as well as those-- out of the bounty of your Lord, and the bounty of your Lord is not confined.

 

[Ethics]

11 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Okay, let us break down your argument:

What is my proof that you can ask help from humans? 

I will show you an example from the Qur'an: "Help one another in acts of piety and righteousness" [Surah Ma'idah (5), verse 2]

Another example: "And the one from his faction called for help to him against the one from his enemy, so Musa struck him and [unintentionally] killed him" [Surah Qasas (28), verse 15]

In both the examples from the Qur'an, neither the seeker nor the giver of help is in ghayb. Musa helped his Shia when he called out to him—but it was only when Musa had entered the city that his follower called out to him.

So you are following a contradictory book? How do you reconcile between these verses then? Clearly in your whole argument of providing these verses are all solely to Allah, no humans alive, nothing. And you yourself mention multiple times as I quote below, clearly that even when it comes to humans alive, the absolute command to help must be Allah alone, otherwise you are committing shirk. Full of contradictions...

 

On 6/9/2023 at 5:49 AM, Muhammad Qaim said:

“You alone we worship and You alone we ask for help” [1:5]

On 6/9/2023 at 5:49 AM, Muhammad Qaim said:

“And seek help through patience and prayer. And indeed, it is difficult except for the humble ones—who are certain they will meet their Lord and they will return to him.” [2:45-46]

On 6/9/2023 at 5:49 AM, Muhammad Qaim said:

“And We will surely test you with something of  fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, and give good tidings to the patient, who, when disaster strikes them, say, “Indeed we belong to Allāh and indeed to Him we will return. Those are the ones upon whom are blessings from their Lord and mercy and it is those who are rightly guided.”

These verses tie up beautifully with [1:5], [2:45], and [2:153]. In al-Fātiḥah, we are taught to ask Allāh for help, and what help did we ask Him for?—“Guide us to the straight path” [1:6]. We’re asking for “guidance”. Allah’s guidance is to be found in His Book, which is a guidance for the godwary [2:3].  He ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).) taught us to seek recourse through praying and observing patience (or fasting, acc. to tradition) in verses 45 and 153, where he also said, “إن الله مع الصابرين“. In the verses under discussion, He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has detailed who the الصابرين are.

On 6/9/2023 at 5:49 AM, Muhammad Qaim said:

Who answers the distressed when he calls Him and removes evil and appoints you as inheritors of the earth? Is there a god with Allāh? Little do you remember!

If anyone other than Allāh could possibly answer you and remove your distress, then would not this challenge of Allāh become pointless (astaghfirullāh!)?

On 6/9/2023 at 5:49 AM, Muhammad Qaim said:

Say: “Invoke those whom you claim besides Him, for they neither have power to remove your adversity nor bring change. They (themselves) are those who call and seek means to their Lord, whoever is nearer, expecting His mercy and fearing His punishment. Indeed your Lord’s punishment is to beware of.

If you claim you are allowed to ask for humans that are alive, you are claiming people have the power to bring about change and remove your adversity... but Allah says no thats not the case. So you are clearing promoting bidah and shirk by making such a claim as to go to other than Allah, AKA HUMANS.

Or is Allah going against his own words in the quran? Which is it?

On 6/9/2023 at 5:49 AM, Muhammad Qaim said:

If God touches you with adversity, none can remove it except He. And if He touches you with good—He is Capable of everything. [6:17]

Do you not know that to Allah belongs the kingdom of the heavens and the earth? And besides Allah, you do not have any guardian or helper. [2:107]

Allāh strengthens whomever He wishes with His help. There is indeed a moral in that for those who have insight. [3:13]

Indeed, Allāh is your Master, and He is the best of helpers [3:150]

If Allāh helps you, no one can overcome you, but if He forsakes you, who will help you after Him? So in Allāh let all the faithful put their trust. [3:160]

On 6/9/2023 at 5:49 AM, Muhammad Qaim said:

And your Lord says, “Call upon me, I will respond to you.” Indeed those who disdain my worship will enter Hell contemptible. [40:60]

On 6/9/2023 at 5:49 AM, Muhammad Qaim said:

And when my servant asks about me, then indeed I am near. I answer the call of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to me and believe in me so that they may be rightly guided. [2:186]

And We are nearer to him (man) than his jugular vein. [50:16]

After all this exhortation from Allāh to his servants to call upon Him, would you still shy away from invoking him?

Exactly, so why are you claiming we should go to mere mortal humans for help when God is closer to us then our jugular veins, unless you are disbeliever and you not believe nor trust Allah. Why are you constantly calling on and seeking help from means other than Allah be it humans or inanimate objects that HELP you, in times of needs or distress. Be it doctors, cooks, friends, parents, cars, computers, keyboards, your mouth when you eat food to HELP keep you alive, your feet that HELPS you move to get to places. Your eyes that HELPS you see... etc etc these are all people and things that are NOT Allah, and go against what Allah commands in the quran, clearly.

You are clearly promoting shirk/bid'ah in your article.

By your interpreting verses about allowing of humans to help you, you are contradicting God's words, or God himself is contradicting His own words. For neither in those verses does God say it is okay or allowed. The farthest you can claim is that ONLY in acts of goodness or piety others(verse does not state whether alive or dead) can call on you for help but even then thats still contradiction to 99% of the verses. Unless you have a clear verse that Allah commands us that yes it is okay to call on others than me, or that yes it is okay to ask for help from humans that are alive.

[Muhammad Qaim]

@Cool You have written so much that it would take me some time to respond to each one of your statements. Maybe I'll do so part-by-part, in my own time. I am new to this site and the quoting system really slows me down. 

First of all, let us clarify what is dua: The literal meaning of the word is "calling, invocation, or supplication." Depending upon the action and intent of the doer, it can be done to Allah also, and the Infallibles also. The question is which one is right according to the Qur'an and which one is wrong?

When I asked you to respond to my quotation of verse 13-14 of Surah Fatir, where Allah says: "Those whom you invoke besides Allah...they do not hear your invocation", you responded with verse 150 of Surah Nisa, where Allah says:

Those who disbelieve in Allah and His apostles and seek to differentiate between Allah and His apostles, and say, ‘We believe in some and disbelieve in some’ and seek to take a way in between

You are claiming that when Allah says "من دونه", the Prophet (S) is not included in that exclusion because you, by using verse 150 are trying to prove that Allah and His apostle have some kind of unity. This is a clear lack of understanding of the Qur'an. This is to be expected of you since you are someone who relies on Tafsir Baatini, tending towards giving esoteric meaning to crystal clear words of Allah, even where it is not intended. 

Verse 150 is talking about those people who believe in some apostles of Allah while reject the others, for example the Jews who believe in Musa (عليه السلام). and reject Isa (عليه السلام). and Christians who do vice versa. They both reject Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a. Thus, when they are rejecting any righteous prophet of Allah, they are rejecting Allah's divinity because every prophet is sent by Allah, so rejecting even a single nabi's prophethood would be tantamount to rejecting Allah's decree. 

These people want to seek a way between two extremes that are:

1) Believing in Allah and all messengers

2) Disbelieving in Allah and all messengers

The people mentioned in this verse seek a path in between: 3) Believing in Allah and "some" of His messengers.

The above #3 way is the one which is refuted by Allah together with #2. So with Allah, there is only one straight path, which is #1.

That means "believing in Allah's messengers = believing in Allah" and "rejecting any of Allah's messengers = rejecting Allah's divinity" But those who seek to differentiate between Allah and his apostles seek way #3.

This is how the verse should be interpreted, because it aligns with the text of the Qur'an. How? See the following verse:

But those who have faith in Allah and His apostles and make no distinction between any of them [4:152]

You are trying to force a different kind of unity between Allah, the Creator, and His apostles, His creations. Relying on the text of the Qur'an to understand it rather than upon your whims is not سطحي, but rather it is a way that is approved by the Qur'an. 

You are the perfect example of people mentioned in verse 3:7: 

مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ

Parts of it are definitive verses, which are the mother of the Book, while others are metaphorical. As for those in whose hearts is deviance, they pursue what is metaphorical in it, courting temptation, and seeking its interpretation.

In fact, you are even one step ahead of these deviated people, when you try to obfuscate simple terms like sabr and salah and give an esoteric or metaphorical meaning to them. These verses are clear, but let a layman spend some time with you, and you would make him so confused that he would question his own intellect "So had I never known what is salah and sabr?"

It is true that according to different contexts and usages, salah and sabr can mean different things, but for this verse و أستعينو با لصبر والصلاة, I did not rely on my own understanding of it, but rather I quoted a hadith from Imam Ja'far as-Sadiq (عليه السلام). which is regarding the exegesis of this verse. 

Me relying on the hadith in this case is completely distinct from the تفسير بالرأي that you always do.

In the hadith mentioned in my original post, both Imam Ali (عليه السلام). and Imam Ja'far Sadiq (عليه السلام). have interpreted صلاة to mean the prayer which is done by bowing down and prostrating to Allah, and sabr is interpreted as صوم or "fasting". This is not my own whimsical interpretation, but rather, it is something supported by traditional evidence from the Infallibles themselves. 

A person of intellect and sanity can already see how your "sabr & salat = Prophet and Imams" argument crumbles to pieces. Even if, in the case of this verse, we accept that other meanings of salah are applicable, it still does not prove your point because in all those instances, salah is basically an act of obedience to Allah. For example you mentioned sending salutations on the Prophet (S) being termed صلاة على النبي, that is acceptable, because Allah has said:

O you who have faith! Invoke blessings on him and invoke Peace upon him in a worthy manner. [33:56]

It is an interpretation that aligns with the متن of the Qur'an, so in the case of verse 33:56, it is totally acceptable. Other meanings could also be applicable—but that would depend upon the context in which they are used. You can not take any meaning that you prefer and put it wherever you like, which is clearly what you are doing when interpreting verse 2:153. When you say that صبر و الصلاة means النبي و الإمام, that interpretation is totally out of the question because the view is not supported by the متن of the Qu'ran itself.

If we consider أئمة and رسول الله to be راسخون في العلم that are mentioned in verse 3:7, then you should be aware that the same people who we consider to be "firmly rooted in knowledge" did not interpret صبر and صلاة as words that point to their own selves.

______________________________________________________

When I say that "seeking help from anyone behind the curtain of ghayb is prohibited", anyone who has read the entirety of my article would understand that by "anyone", I'm clearly referring to the "created beings", not Allah Himself. This is clarified by the very next phrase "as ghaybi assistance is from Allah alone".

Now, when quoting this part of my post, you made a very big blunder.

"Ghaybi assistance is from Allah only" IS IN NO WAY OR FORM EQUAL TO THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT — "Only ghaybi assistance is from Allah"

You are trying to strawman my argument here. 

Notice how the placement of the word "only" completely changes the meaning of the statement? 

In the first one, (1) one kind of assistance is reserved for Allah and can not be applied to other creations, while in the second one, (2) Allah is reserved to only one kind of assistance and can not be held accountable for other kinds.

The first one (1) is what I said. 

The second one is (2) how you misrepresented my words.

So, when you say that "All kind of help is from only one source — Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)., be it through any means" — I NEVER DISAGREED WITH YOU ON THAT, because I never said something opposite to that effect.

What I said was "ghaybi assistance is reserved for Allah" — I stand by that. What I mean is that whomever you call upon besides Allah, if they are in ghayb, they can not hear you. The exception is Allah. Allah is the absolute ghayb, and he is also السميع , which means he is the "All-Hearing". However, other creations of  His do not share this attribute.

My article is not self-refuting, rather, it is your understanding of my words, and even Allah's words, that is very illogical.

A higher level of ma'rifah is not indicated by how high of a status or rank you try to give to the apostles or Imams, but it is to obey their clear injunctions and exercise your reason, and interpret words of Allah for what they are, not what they could be. 

_________________________________________________

I have an answer to all your statements, and إن شاء الله, I will answer them as time allows me. Also, it takes a considerable amount of time before my replies get accepted by a moderator. I'm still fairly new to how this site works. 

[Muhammad Qaim]

@Ethics

Ultimate source of all help is Allah only, we both agree on that

However, there are two accepted methods to obtain that:

1) Invoking Allah (دعاء إلى الله)

2) Making use of ظاهري أسباب 

 

Wherever I say that you are allowed to ask humans for help, I mean those who are part of ظاهري أسباب (as is proven from the verses from Surah Ma'idah and Qasas) and whenever I say that you are not allowed to ask humans (or chosen beings like the Prophet and Infallibles), I am referring to those who are NOT A PART OF ظاهري أسباب but are in غيب.

It's not that complex.

[Muhammad Qaim]

@Cool @Ethics

For clarification:

In this debate:

I use tawassul to mean something like this (It can be debated at length what tawassul means in the light of the Qur'an and traditions, but that I something I am not willing to do right now, so for the sake of argument, I am accepting this method as valid and allowed):

"Ya Allah help me, I ask for your help (or rizq, etc) by the right of or in the name of Ali (عليه السلام). or Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a. "

And I use "istighathah" to mean something like:

"Ya Ali help me by the إذن of Allah"

In both cases, مقصود is Allah's help. But the first one is where مخاطب is Allah, and in the second one, the مخاطب is Allah's creation.

I have no problem with the first one.

I have problem with the second one.

THIS IS THE ESSENCE OF MY ARGUMENT.

[layman]

7 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

The above statement is not my opinion, it is a conclusion that I have arrived upon by studying a number of verses from the Qur'an.

 

What distinguishes between your opinion and your own conclusion? Your opinion is formed based on your personal interpretation of Quranic verses, which leads you to draw conclusions. If you state that it is your personal conclusion, I have no problem with that. From my perspective, your conclusion represents your opinion on religious matters. It is understandable that everyone is entitled to their own opinion based on their own conclusions, and I respect that diversity of thought.  

7 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

There are problems with you presenting the verse of wilayah and the verse of obedience to prove your point about istighatha because of the following reasons:

1) The verses do not talk about calling upon these personalities. As for calling upon Allah, that is proven by other verses.

2) I think you have conflated the concept of wilayah and istighathah. Wilayah is like Imamah, and is related to obedience, just like the verse 4:59 tells us to obey "those in authority from among you" — how does it vindicate seeking help? The word for calling upon is أدعو, not أطيعو. 

3) I did not exactly say that they are dead—I just said that they are in a realm where neither we can perceive them, nor they can perceive us. They are just like shuhada or martyrs where they are alive with their lord receiving sustenance, they are marzooq not raaziq. My God, did you all not read the above discourse at all? I think I have discussed this in detail.

4) Obedience to Allah, the Prophet (S) and Imams (عليه السلام). can be carried out through learning their teachings from books and scholars. What does that have to do with communication and help? Allah in the Qur'an says: And who is better in religion than one who submits himself to Allah while being a doer of good and follows the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth? So does that now mean that in order to be better in religion and follow the monotheistic millah of Ibrahim (عليه السلام). we need to be able to communicate with him? I do not see how that follows.

I perceive a difference in our understanding of the concept of Wali. While you associate Wali primarily with obedience, my understanding of Wilayat encompasses various aspects of our lives.  It is about on how to be on the siratulmustaqeem.

When we seek help, we invoke the aid of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) because He is our Wali. However, in the Qur'an, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned that our Wali consists of Him (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), and the Imams (عليه السلام).

Let's imagine we lived during the time of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) or the Imams (عليه السلام) and sought their assistance. Why would we turn to them? My answer would be that we consider them our Wali, as they are closer to us and have been approved by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as our guides. Many people during the Prophet's ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) lifetime sought his help to enhance their understanding or resolve personal matters. What prevents me from seeking the same guidance from our Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) or the Imams (عليه السلام)? If I were to ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) during the Prophet's ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) time, surely Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would advise me to seek help from the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)).

My understanding of Wali differs from yours. I firmly believe that my Wali (Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), and the Imams (as)) maintain a connection with all their followers. While a person may read the Quran or Hadiths (written texts left by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), and the Imams (as)), the understanding may not reach the same level without direct assistance from the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the Imams (عليه السلام). Even in comprehending the Holy Names of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), glorifying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), or actualizing Tawheed, the direct guidance of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the Imams (عليه السلام) makes a significant difference. However, it is crucial for a person to first understand that their relationship with Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) remains connected in this world and the hereafter. Ultimately, the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is the City of Knowledge (Madinatul 'Ilm), and Ali (عليه السلام) is the gate.

Have you ever have a dream of an Imam (عليه السلام)?  Many people have.

Seeking help from our Wali does not necessarily mean worshiping them. The OP's opinion on seeking help from the unseen Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Imams (عليه السلام) is a point of contention. According to the OP, seeking assistance from someone who is beyond the realm of the seen (ghayb) is prohibited. However, I respectfully disagree with the OP on this issue. I believe that our Wali, including the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the Imams (عليه السلام), are accessible and not disconnected from us. Seeking help from our Wali does not imply any degradation of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

 

9 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

I have not denied tawassul. If you say, "Ya Allah, I ask your help through the wasilah of the Prophet (S) and the Imams (عليه السلام)." — I have no problem with that. This can be counted as a correct and approved method of seeking help. If you want to resort to an intermediary, that is fine. 

But my problem is when you are not calling Allah, but instead beseeching the Infallibles (عليه السلام). directly (for example, Ya Ali (عليه السلام). help me) — that is where you are making a mistake. Why? Read the following verse: "And those you call upon other than Him do not possess the thread of a date-stone. If you call upon them, they do not hear you, and if heard you they could not respond to you. And on the day of Judgement they will deny your shirk"

It is crucial to understand that believing Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) as an independent entity separate from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) contradicts Islamic teachings.

When we seek help from a medical doctor to cure our sickness, it is essential to maintain a clear distinction. In our hearts, we should never believe that the doctor alone is responsible for our cure. Instead, we should acknowledge that we seek a means to be cured, while recognizing that it is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who ultimately grants us healing through the knowledge and skills bestowed upon the doctor by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). The doctor serves as an approved means, and to view them as an independent entity responsible for our cure would be a form of associating partners with Allah (shirk). However, when we recognize the doctor as a means through which Allah's blessings manifest, we glorify Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Everything we perceive through our senses serves as a means to glorify Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Our Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the Imams (عليه السلام) are means. Even supplications (duas), the Holy Names, and the Quran are means. It is important to understand the distinction between approved means and those that are disapproved. Prostrating towards the Kaaba is a permissible means of worship.

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is beyond our complete comprehension, and it is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who enables us to understand Him through His approved means. This implies that we must connect our souls to the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and the Ahlulbayt to deepen our understanding of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) as humble servants.

Therefore, when someone says "Ya Ali," it is necessary to inquire about their belief. If they affirm that Ali is their Wali and a means of connecting to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), then the matter is settled. However, if they claim that Ali is an independent entity separate from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it constitutes shirk, associating partners with Allah."

9 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Is this statement your own opinion? What is your proof for that claim? 

Let us, for the sake of argument, accept that you can seek help from the Imams (عليه السلام). and the Prophet (S). Fine. That is out of the way. Even then, what you have said completely baffles me. What is your proof when saying that we can "worship" Allah through the Prophet (S) and Imams? What does that mean? 

What is your proof that the the Prophet (S) and Imams ((عليه السلام).) are with you when you worship?

You said "the Prophet and Imamsm ust be with us when we worship" — Wow! I've never even heard of that statement from any Muslim I've encountered so far? Help was fine up until now, but worship?! عباده!? 

As I mentioned earlier, we are never disconnected from our Wali (Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), and the Imams). Wali represents a spiritual connection. Worship, on the other hand, is a spiritual connection solely directed towards Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has made Himself known to us through the Prophet and the Imams, so it would be illogical to suddenly abandon them and worship Allah independently. Can we truly bid farewell to the Prophet? Is that even possible?

In Surah Al-Ahzab (33:56), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commands Himself, the angels, and the believers to send blessings upon Prophet Muhammad and his family. This obligatory act implies that there is something unique and directly from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) present in the pure souls of Muhammad and his family, which makes them deserving of these blessings. It is worth recalling that in Surah Al-Fatiha (1:7), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentions the path of those upon whom He has bestowed favors. These bestowed favors remain with them forever. 

If this special connection directly from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) exists in the pure souls of Muhammad and his family, it should be allowed to transcend into our souls, guiding us towards the straight path (sirat al-mustaqeem). The central act of worship is establishing salah (prayer). It is vital that the light (Nuur) of Muhammad and his family be present in our souls during prayer. It is because of this Nur that, at the end of our prayer, we send blessings and greetings to Muhammad and his family, as well as to our own souls and the righteous servants of Allah. We send greetings to our own souls because, at the end of prayer, we are united with Muhammad and his family in glorifying Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). We are not in the company of the devils.

When reciting duas to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), it is important to send blessings upon Muhammad and his family. Reciting duas to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is act of worship, and we blend it with plenty of Salawats. 

To be a Muslim, we affirm the Shahadah, expressing "La ilaha illa Allah" (there is no god but Allah). But why do we continue with "Muhammadur Rasulullah" (Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah) and "Aliyyun Waliyullah" (Ali is the Wali of Allah)?

Because to be a Muslim, we need Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Muhammad, and his family. 

There is NO way we can disconnect ourselves as a Muslim in all our actions from our Wali, including worshipping Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

11 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Again, this is a flimsy argument. 

First of all, how can you not have yaqeen of akhirah unless you are there? Do you believe in Allah? Have you seen Allah? No, right? Does that negate your belief in God? No.

Have you seen the Prophet (S)? But do you believe that he was a true Prophet (S) who brought the message of Islam and we have to follow his (S) teachings? You do. If so, then how does your point stand ground about akhirah or qiyamah?

You said "we can not be there or witness the hereafter unless our Wali brings us there to witness it" — where does the verse say that your "wali" will bring you to the day of Judgement?

Allah says: "How can you disbelieve in Allah when you were lifeless and He brought you to life; then He will cause you to die, then He will bring you back to life, and then to Him you will be returnedI" [Surah Baqarah, verse 28]

So, you see, it is Allah who will resurrect you on the day of Judgement, not your "wali". Your "wali" will not bring you back to life to witness qiyamah. That is a baseless argument. Your wali will be your "intercessor" on the day of Judgement. That means they will do "shafa'at". That is not at all related to beseeching them for help.

Belief (eeman) and certainty (yaqeen) are two distinct levels. Many followers of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) have a strong belief in him. However, those who reach the level of certainty are willing to sacrifice their lives for Imam Hussain. They can envision the ultimate outcome, referring to the hereafter, due to their firm belief in the Wilayat (guardianship) of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

[Shakir 2:1] Alif Lam Mim.
[Shakir 2:2] This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil).
[Shakir 2:3] Those who believe in the unseen and keep up prayer and spend out of what We have given them.
[Shakir 2:4] And who believe in that which has been revealed to you and that which was revealed before you and they are sure of the hereafter.
[Shakir 2:5] These are on a right course from their Lord and these it is that shall be successful.

I sincerely believe that our Wali (Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet Muhammad, and the Imams) will guide us in understanding how to believe in the unseen, perform prayer, spend our provisions, believe in the revelations, and have certainty in the hereafter. Whatever is written in the Quran, we rely on our Wali to help us comprehend its true essence. The way this understanding unfolds may vary at an individual level.

When it comes to discussing Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), no matter how much we read, it will never be enough. It is at the individual level, with the guidance of Muhammad and his family (Ahlulbayt), that the true understanding of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (Tawheed) reveals itself. No humans know Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) better than Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام).

We don't dispute about Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) at the Rabb, but our differences lie in our understanding on "holding on directly" to Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) that will not break spiritually because we believe that Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are the Rope of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) .

Wallahualam

[Muhammad Qaim]

@layman The first problem with invoking the Infallibles ((عليه السلام).) directly is that it implies that you believe that they can hear you. And since there is no preference for you over other believers, then that would mean that every believer who beseeches the Infallibles ((عليه السلام).) would be heard by them.

What I am trying to say is: If I say, Ya Ali, and you say Ya Ali, and a million other Shias say Ya Ali too, and Imam Ali (عليه السلام). being where he is, can hear us, then that would make him All-Hearing or السميع, and that is the attribute of Allah.

My concept of wilayah is based upon verses 5:55 and 4:59. 

All other attributes that you are giving them are not based on the text of the verses that you have quoted.

If what I say is my personal conclusion and not fact, then remember that what you say too, is not fact, but rather your own personal conclusion. As humans, we are all subject to biases and our perspectives are very subjective. Objectivity is very hard to attain in such matters. May Allah help me and you both and guide us to the straight path.

[Ethics]

14 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

What is the problem if we call upon the Infallibles (عليه السلام). to help us? Well, if I or you can call out to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). and every other person on the earth can call out to him (عليه السلام). too, then that would mean Imam Ali (عليه السلام). can hear everybody that calls out to him, and that would make him All-Hearing. Because why would it be that he (عليه السلام). hears one person but does not hear the other? If you give that attribute to Imam Ali (عليه السلام)., then I would say you are entering dangerous territory.

Allah is the most truthful. So am I, I have never lied before. Do you consider me a God? Am I a God now?

With the age of technology and communication, the lengths at which humans are able to hear and see all is possible. When humans reach that point when you are able to see everyone and hear everyone, would that mean humanity has reached divinity? Would that make them a God or Gods?

God is the sustainer, but there are also things that also gives us sustenance like food or water. Are they partners with God or are they Gods of their own?

God is the shaafa, but most humans on earth get their shaafa from medicine. Is medicine a partner with God? Or is medicine Gods of their own.

Just wondering how do you reconcile these things?

 

On 6/9/2023 at 5:49 AM, Muhammad Qaim said:

The practice of most turbaned scholars nowadays is to read the ḥadīth books, pick out traditions that support their cause, and feed them to the masses, without caring in the least to verify, at least, the chain of narrators first. How would they? Most are not even adept in ʿilm ar-rijāl (the study of people who transmitted/reported sayings from the holy Prophet ﷺ or the Imāms).

Why do you think your way is the right way? Who said so? Allah? Does the quran give explicit evidence to what you claim? I can simply right now make up a chain of reliable narrators and say they have narrated that vinshnu is your God. By your logic you will take Vishu as your God. Seems problematic to me. After all, sunnis think Allah has human body parts because their authentic chain of narrator hadiths claim so too.

 

On 6/9/2023 at 5:49 AM, Muhammad Qaim said:

What they are doing is trying to make the Qur’ān comply with what they have already established from the narrations. Such a reading of the Book is close to fabricating lies against Allāh and His Messenger

As an objective reader to your posts. How is that any different then what you claim? Seems like you are doing the same to me.

 

If any sunni/wahabi/salafi/psuedo shia has any clear answers to my responses/questions feel free to answer if Muhammad Qaim cannot do so. I will be waiting.

Edited June 10 by Ethics

[Muhammad Qaim]

1 hour ago, Ethics said:

Why do you think your way is the right way? Who said so? Allah? Does the quran give explicit evidence to what you claim? I can simply right now make up a chain of reliable narrators and say they have narrated that vinshnu is your God. By your logic you will take Vishu as your God. Seems problematic to me. After all, sunnis think Allah has human body parts because their authentic chain of narrator hadiths claim so too.

 

As an objective reader to your posts. How is that any different then what you claim? Seems like you are doing the same to me.

 

If any sunni/wahabi/salafi/psuedo shia has any clear answers to my responses/questions feel free to answer if Muhammad Qaim cannot do so. I will be waiting.

I did NOT say that the chain of narrators is the ULTIMATE test regarding the veridicality of a narration. You have again misconstrued it.

I am putting forward two tests to verify whether a narration can be relied upon

1) The narrators should be reliable

2) The narration should conform to the Quran

So, in essence, the methodology I am putting forward is 

1) Read the Qur'an first

2) Accept the narration that conforms with it

3) Reject the narration that goes against it

What problem do you have with this methodology?

In our hadith books there are narrations attributed to Imams that imply that certain verses present in the Quran we have with us, were not revealed that way, but instead with a different wording. I also read a narration where "ja'alna lil muttaqina imaman"  (Make us an Imam for the Godwary) as it is written in the Qur'an was said to have been revealed this way: "ij'al lana min al muttaqina imaman" (Make for us an Imam from among the Godwary). 

Even if the chain of narrators was very reliable/trustworthy, such ahadith would still be considered da'eef because they contradict the Qur'an. Allah has said that He has revealed the Reminder and He will preserve it. 

There are also reliable narrations of A'immah in al-Kafi (the same book) where they (عليه السلام). tell us to not accept that which is attributed to them but goes against the Qur'an

لا تقبل علينا خلاف القران 

As for the Twitter and follower thing, you are just going ad hominem on me. If you are so confident in your argument, then I do not think you would need to resort to personal attacks. I advise you against ad hominem. It is a logical fallacy. 

My character and personality can not be determined by a "following" list on a Twitter handle, and even if it could be determined, it still has no bearing on the discussion whatsoever.

Also, I have posted some replies to the other user who has replied to me. They are awaiting moderation.

[Ethics]

I am going to wait for your responses to everything I have raised before I continue this discussion. Meaning I will wait until you address the first responses I made and then I will continue to give any feedback I see fit with your thoughts.

Edited June 10 by Ethics

[Ethics]

4 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

@Ethics

Ultimate source of all help is Allah only, we both agree on that

However, there are two accepted methods to obtain that:

1) Invoking Allah (دعاء إلى الله)

2) Making use of ظاهري أسباب

Wherever I say that you are allowed to ask humans for help, I mean those who are part of ظاهري أسباب (as is proven from the verses from Surah Ma'idah and Qasas) and whenever I say that you are not allowed to ask humans (or chosen beings like the Prophet and Infallibles), I am referring to those who are NOT A PART OF ظاهري أسباب but are in غيب.

It's not that complex.

No we do not agree with that. In fact I am arguing against what you are claiming. Allah is not the ultimate source, Allah is the ONLY source for help. Per the quranic verses.

Maybe you already responded and its getting posted soon, maybe you havnt. But you did not answer the points raised which contradict your statements above with the bolded statement in this post. I will keep waiting for your other answers to all the points I have raised.

[Cool]

4 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

First of all, let us clarify what is dua: The literal meaning of the word is "calling, invocation, or supplication." Depending upon the action and intent of the doer,(1) it can be done to Allah also, (2) and the Infallibles also.

Dua is worship according to many sahih ahadith. So technically, dua cannot be done to the ones whom we don't worship. 

# 2 in above quote is your misinterpretation as there is only Allah, the One & Only Lord, worthy of being worshipped. 

4 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

You are claiming that when Allah says "من دونه", the Prophet (S) is not included in that exclusion because you, by using verse 150 are trying to prove that Allah and His apostle have some kind of unity.

The term "bearer of divine covenant" means what?? 

So what is wilayah? 

انما وليكم الله و رسوله و الذين أمنوا الذين يقيمون الصلاة is expressing what? 

 The following verses:

 وَمَا رَمَيْتَ إِذْ رَمَيْتَ وَلَـكِنَّ اللّهَ رَمَى

& 

 

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يُبَايِعُونَكَ إِنَّمَا يُبَايِعُونَ اللَّهَ يَدُ اللَّهِ فَوْقَ أَيْدِيهِمْ

&

مَّنْ يُطِعِ الرَّسُولَ فَقَدْ أَطَاعَ اللّهَ

are expressing what?

4 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Verse 150 is talking about those people who believe in some apostles of Allah while reject the others, for example the Jews who believe in Musa (عليه السلام). and reject Isa (عليه السلام). and Christians who do vice versa. They both reject Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a. Thus, when they are rejecting any righteous prophet of Allah, they are rejecting Allah's divinity because every prophet is sent by Allah, so rejecting even a single nabi's prophethood would be tantamount to rejecting Allah's decree. 

These people want to seek a way between two extremes that are:

1) Believing in Allah and all messengers

2) Disbelieving in Allah and all messengers

The people mentioned in this verse seek a path in between: 3) Believing in Allah and "some" of His messengers.

The above #3 way is the one which is refuted by Allah together with #2. So with Allah, there is only one straight path, which is #1.

That means "believing in Allah's messengers = believing in Allah" and "rejecting any of Allah's messengers = rejecting Allah's divinity" But those who seek to differentiate between Allah and his apostles seek way #3.

Same is what you are doing. Accepting Allah as your wali but you are showing problem in accepting the Prophet & Imams as your wali. 

You too are seeking the way between the two extremes:

1. Believing in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and whatever He revealed to His Apostle.

2. Disbelieve in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and whatever He revealed to His Apostle.

So you are trying to make a way-out by:

3. Believe in Allah and "some" of whatever He revealed to His Apostle. 

That is the only reason you presented the Apostle of Allah against Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by quoting the term من دونه 

4 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

13-14 of Surah Fatir, where Allah says: "Those whom you invoke besides Allah...they do not hear your invocation",

It is obvious that with this sort of poor understanding & interests, you will going to throw the following verses on us too:

وَالَّذِينَ اتَّخَذُوا مِن دُونِهِ أَوْلِيَاء مَا نَعْبُدُهُمْ إِلَّا لِيُقَرِّبُونَا إِلَى اللَّهِ زُلْفَى

And would try to challenge the tawassul. We do have أَوْلِيَاء other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) (Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams) but we don't worship them because of the fact that the sole owner of wilayah is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for He is  مَوْلاَهُمُ الْحَقِّ and the Only One worthy of being worshipped, to Him is our return. 

Your failure to grasp the vertical hierarchy in the system of wilayah is apparent. 

5 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Even if, in the case of this verse, we accept that other meanings of salah are applicable, it still does not prove your point because in all those instances, salah is basically an act of obedience to Allah. For example you mentioned sending salutations on the Prophet (S) being termed صلاة على النبي, that is acceptable, because Allah has said:

O you who have faith! Invoke blessings on him and invoke Peace upon him in a worthy manner. [33:56]

It is an interpretation that aligns with the متن of the Qur'an, so in the case of verse 33:56, it is totally acceptable. Other meanings could also be applicable—but that would depend upon the context in which they are used. You can not take any meaning that you prefer and put it wherever you like, which is clearly what you are doing when interpreting verse 2:153. When you say that صبر و الصلاة means النبي و الإمام, that interpretation is totally out of the question because the view is not supported by the متن of the Qu'ran itself.

Everything is dependent on the intention. So if you are unable to grasp the reality of things from which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded you to seek assistance, then why don't you just sincerely look at your prayers? The salah you offer, how many things unintentionally or intentionally becomes "shareek" in that ibadah? Can you stop different thoughts to pop into your mind while offering the salah? Do you consider your salah خالص enough that nothing is associated in that worship? 

I don't find my salah as a thing which could help me, 

So by the definition of Quran salah is a thing which stops one from fahishaat & munkar:

إِنَّ الصَّلَاةَ تَنْهَى عَنِ الْفَحْشَاء وَالْمُنكَرِ

And here in this verse too, salah is mentioned as ذكر

اتْلُ مَا أُوحِيَ إِلَيْكَ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَأَقِمِ الصَّلَاةَ إِنَّ الصَّلَاةَ تَنْهَى عَنِ الْفَحْشَاء وَالْمُنكَرِ وَلَذِكْرُ اللَّهِ أَكْبَرُ وَاللَّهُ يَعْلَمُ مَا تَصْنَعُونَ

29:45

So I expect that you must be offering all your wajibaat, including the salah, can you claim or even witness that your salah has raised you to the level where you don't commit anything fahash or munkar? 

Answer this with true honesty by feeling yourself in the presence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

I have yet to discuss the sabr, the points which I mentioned about sabr earlier are gone above your head. 

So what is the reality of salah?

Are we not just copy the actions of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? And copying his actions with impure hearts would let "the act of copying the action of Prophet" (i.e. salah) to stop us from committing fahshaat & munkar? 

So is it the salah which purify our heart? Or is it a being which is appointed specifically for purifying our hearts? 

رسولا منهم يتلوا عليهم أياته و يزكيهم

And this blessed being is that which do not even purify someone out of his own will:

بل الله يزكي من يشاء

Look within yourself, you can read yourself, evaluate yourself and your actions

بل الانسان على نفسه بصيرة

So that you can know the truth. 

And in last, I would also like to quote another profound verse of Quran which would further explain what I am saying:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَتَّبِعُوا خُطُوَاتِ الشَّيْطَانِ وَمَن يَتَّبِعْ خُطُوَاتِ الشَّيْطَانِ فَإِنَّهُ يَأْمُرُ بِالْفَحْشَاء وَالْمُنكَرِ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ مَا زَكَا مِنكُم مِّنْ أَحَدٍ أَبَدًا وَلَكِنَّ اللَّهَ يُزَكِّي مَن يَشَاء وَاللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ

24:21

The purification, the fadl & rehmah mentioned in the above profound verse are the things which could help anyone to avoid committing the fahshaa & munkar. 

So I do view salah as purified souls, the ones who are the bearers of divine grace & mercy, peace & blessings of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) be upon them. 

 

[Cool]

6 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

My article is not self-refuting, rather, it is your understanding of my words, and even Allah's words, that is very illogical.

Your inability to identify & accept Allah's words is apparent from your OP. Your interpretation of اياك نستعين collapsed when you mention another verse which mentions استعينوا بالصبر والصلاة 

6 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

When I say that "seeking help from anyone behind the curtain of ghayb is prohibited", anyone who has read the entirety of my article would understand that by "anyone", I'm clearly referring to the "created beings", not Allah Himself. This is clarified by the very next phrase "as ghaybi assistance is from Allah alone".

You were not clear in your post, you should have clearly stated the fact that the source of every help is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). A friend's help for you is nothing but a wasilah from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Similarly, Prophet's help would also be a wasilah from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), angels help would also be a wasilah from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

So when I mentioned to you, your problems, you start twisting the words 

6 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Now, when quoting this part of my post, you made a very big blunder.

"Ghaybi assistance is from Allah only" IS IN NO WAY OR FORM EQUAL TO THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT — "Only ghaybi assistance is from Allah"

You are trying to strawman my argument here

Why ghabi assistance is from Allah? (Lets ignore the word "only" for a while)

Why not every? 

You must be careful, you are quoting verses of Quran on one hand and you, at the same time, either ignoring or obscuring the Quranic message. 

That's not my misunderstanding clearly but the problem in your writing precisely.

6 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

What I said was "ghaybi assistance is reserved for Allah" — I stand by that. What I mean is that whomever you call upon besides Allah, if they are in ghayb, they can not hear you.

Now you are caught red handed here.

Now the Imam of your time is in ghayb, he is a also a witness over people even in his ghaybah. Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is in ghayb but still he is a witness over Prophets & Imams. 

وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا

What kind of شُهَدَاءَ are these? The ones who cannot hear nor see us? What is the worth of this witnessing? The ones unaware of our actions, cannot be the witness in any way. 

Perhaps you can learn why Imams are known as "اسماء الله الحسنى". 

[Cool]

For my brothers, I would like to elaborate the basis on which I am viewing Imams as salah. 

According to Quran:

5 hours ago, Cool said:

So by the definition of Quran salah is a thing which stops one from fahishaat & munkar:

إِنَّ الصَّلَاةَ تَنْهَى عَنِ الْفَحْشَاء وَالْمُنكَرِ

 

5 hours ago, Cool said:

And in last, I would also like to quote another profound verse of Quran which would further explain what I am saying:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا تَتَّبِعُوا خُطُوَاتِ الشَّيْطَانِ وَمَن يَتَّبِعْ خُطُوَاتِ الشَّيْطَانِ فَإِنَّهُ يَأْمُرُ بِالْفَحْشَاء وَالْمُنكَرِ وَلَوْلَا فَضْلُ اللَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ وَرَحْمَتُهُ مَا زَكَا مِنكُم مِّنْ أَحَدٍ أَبَدًا وَلَكِنَّ اللَّهَ يُزَكِّي مَن يَشَاء وَاللَّهُ سَمِيعٌ عَلِيمٌ

24:21

The purification, the fadl & rehmah mentioned in the above profound verse are the things which could help anyone to avoid committing the fahshaa & munkar. 

We know everything has a zahir and a batin, while viewing the reality of salah, I am viewing the batini meaning of this reality through these verses to further understand the ahadith which we have in our books, I am quoting just two of them here:

فقال: يا داود نحن الصلاة في كتاب الله عز وجل، ونحن الزكاة، ونحن الصيام، ونحن الحج، (ونحن الشهر الحرام) (3)، ونحن البلد الحرام، ونحن كعبة الله ونحن قبلة الله، ونحن وجه الله، قال الله تعالى: (فأينما تولوا فثم وجه الله) (4) ونحن الآيات، ونحن البينات.

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/3744_تأويل-الآيات-شرف-الدين-الحسيني-ج-١/الصفحة_17#top

وفي الرواية الواردة في معرفة الإمام بالنورانية، قال سلمان: قلت: يا أخا رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) ومن أقام الصلاة أقام ولايتك؟ قال: نعم يا سلمان، تصديق ذلك قوله تعالى في الكتاب العزيز: * (واستعينوا بالصبر والصلاة) * - الآية. فالصبر رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله)، والصلاة إقامة ولايتي، فمنها قال الله تعالى: * (وإنها لكبيرة) * ولم يقل وإنهما لكبيرة، لأن الولاية كبيرة حملها إلا على الخاشعين، والخاشعون هم الشيعة المستبصرون

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1620_مستدرك-سفينة-البحار-الشيخ-علي-النمازي-الشاهرودي-ج-٦/الصفحة_156#top

I always try to avoid تفسير بالرائ and try to base my views on Quran & hadith. There is much more which I can add here, but I think the above two should suffice.

Wassalam!!

[Muhammad Qaim]

5 hours ago, Cool said:

Dua is worship according to many sahih ahadith. So technically, dua cannot be done to the ones whom we don't worship. 

# 2 in above quote is your misinterpretation as there is only Allah, the One & Only Lord, worthy of being worshipped. 

No. I am talking about the literal meaning of the word دعاء and it's forms like أدعو، تدعو، etc. For example:

[40:41] وَيَا قَوْمِ مَا لِي أَدْعُوكُمْ إِلَى النَّجَاةِ وَتَدْعُونَنِي إِلَى النَّارِ

O my people, how is it that I call you to salvation, and you call me to the Fire?

Similarly, the verse that I quoted from Surah Fatir, it uses the same word:

إِن تَدْعُوهُمْ لَا يَسْمَعُوا دُعَاءَكُمْ وَلَوْ سَمِعُوا مَا اسْتَجَابُوا لَكُمْ

If you call them they do not hear your call....

You are so hell-bent on refuting me that now when I even raise simple points you are unable to comprehend what I am saying. Otherwise you would not have limited your perspective to only one meaning of دعاء which is worship.

دعاء is done by believers to Allah, and it is also done by disbelievers and mushrikeen to their idols. The action itself is that of "calling, invoking, inviting". 

As for the "worship" that you are talking about — then دعاء only becomes worship when you call upon Allah:

وَقَالَ رَبُّكُمُ ادْعُونِي أَسْتَجِبْ لَكُمْ ۚ إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَسْتَكْبِرُونَ عَنْ عِبَادَتِي سَيَدْخُلُونَ جَهَنَّمَ دَاخِرِينَ

Your Lord has said, “Call upon Me, and I will respond to you. But those who are too proud to worship Me will enter Hell forcibly.” 

This kind of calling or invocation Allah has reserved for himself.

That's why in Surah Ahqaf, Allah says:

وَمَنْ أَضَلُّ مِمَّن يَدْعُو مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ مَن لَّا يَسْتَجِيبُ لَهُ إِلَىٰ يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ وَهُمْ عَن دُعَائِهِمْ غَافِلُونَ

Who is more wrong than him who calls, (يدعو) besides God, those who will not answer him until the Day of Resurrection, and are heedless of their prayers (دعائهم)? 

Quote

Why ghabi assistance is from Allah? (Lets ignore the word "only" for a while)

Why not every? 

Yes. Every help is from Allah alone. The source of every help is Allah.

When did I say that that is not the case?

However, there is a certain kind of help reserved for Allah alone. That is the part you are unable to comprehend. It is the type of removal of adversity Allah talks about in the verse:

 أَمَّن يُجِيبُ الْمُضْطَرَّ إِذَا دَعَاهُ وَيَكْشِفُ السُّوءَ

Or, who answers the one in need when he calls upon Him, and relieves adversity

Am I not being clear enough already?

Quote

Now you are caught red handed here.

Now the Imam of your time is in ghayb, he is a also a witness over people even in his ghaybah. Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is in ghayb but still he is a witness over Prophets & Imams. 

وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا

What kind of شُهَدَاءَ are these? The ones who cannot hear nor see us? What is the worth of this witnessing? The ones unaware of our actions, cannot be the witness in any way. 

Perhaps you can learn why Imams are known as "اسماء الله الحسنى". 

وَلَوْ سَمِعُوا مَا اسْتَجَابُوا لَكُمْ

Even if they heard you, they can not respond to you [35:14]

Ponder over the above statement.

As for your point about the Prophet and Imams being shuhada:

مَا قُلْتُ لَهُمْ إِلَّا مَا أَمَرْتَنِي بِهِ أَنِ اعْبُدُوا اللَّهَ رَبِّي وَرَبَّكُمْ ۚ وَكُنتُ عَلَيْهِمْ شَهِيدًا مَّا دُمْتُ فِيهِمْ ۖ فَلَمَّا تَوَفَّيْتَنِي كُنتَ أَنتَ الرَّقِيبَ عَلَيْهِمْ ۚ وَأَنتَ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ شَهِيدٌ

I only told them what You commanded me: that you shall worship God, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them while I was among them; but when You took me to Yourself, you became the Watcher over them—You are Witness over everything. [5:116]

Just like Isa (عليه السلام). who is not dead, but in ghayb, not among us. Same is the case with our Prophet (S). He was a witness over us when he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).a. was among us. 

 

[Muhammad Qaim]

6 hours ago, Cool said:

Same is what you are doing. Accepting Allah as your wali but you are showing problem in accepting the Prophet & Imams as your wali. 

You too are seeking the way between the two extremes:

1. Believing in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and whatever He revealed to His Apostle.

2. Disbelieve in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and whatever He revealed to His Apostle.

So you are trying to make a way-out by:

3. Believe in Allah and "some" of whatever He revealed to His Apostle. 

I accept Allah, His Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).w, and the Imams (عليه السلام). as my awliya', but for me, all three are not equal.

I accept Imams (عليه السلام). as my wali, but I also refrain to attribute to them what they never attributed to themselves.

As for Allah's wilayah, that is His All-Encompassing qudrah and milkiyyah over all the world. That's why He can do whatever He wishes and He controls everything. 

As for His Messenger's and Aimmah's wilayah, I believe that their obedience is compulsory, their lives are exemplars for us to follow, their love is incumbent upon us, and dissociation from their enemies is a result of loving them.

This concept of the wilayah of Imams I have gotten from verse 4:59 (obedience), and 42:23 (love).

However, their wilayah for me does not mean that they can answer my supplication. This is not confirmed by the Qur'an.

[Muhammad Qaim]

5 hours ago, Cool said:

Your inability to identify & accept Allah's words is apparent from your OP. Your interpretation of اياك نستعين collapsed when you mention another verse which mentions استعينوا بالصبر والصلاة 

You were not clear in your post, you should have clearly stated the fact that the source of every help is Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). A friend's help for you is nothing but a wasilah from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Similarly, Prophet's help would also be a wasilah from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), angels help would also be a wasilah from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

I do accept that my writing was not precise and I left a lot of it unclear.

However, as I have been restating continuously:

I have no problem with wasilah. Asking Allah in the name of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). and his pure progeny (عليه السلام). is something I myself do.

My only problem is with invoking them directly.

It is not my interpretation of إياك نستعين that collides with استعينو بالصبر و الصلاة but it is your perspective. Because I accept sabr and salah as wasaa'il. 

I do not say "Ya sabr Ya salah help me" in the same way I do not say "Ya Ali Ya Muhammad (peace be upon them all) help me"

But I pray so that Allah will help me, and I observe patience so that Allah will help me.

Similarly I DO SAY: "I ask for your help by the wasilah of your Prophet (S) and his pure progeny ((عليه السلام).)" 

[Cool]

2 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

My only problem is with invoking them directly.

Ok, do you not "invoke" Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in your salah? 

Do you not say السلام عليك ايها النبي و رحمة الله و بركاته ?

2 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Because I accept sabr and salah as wasaa'il. 

That's good, but what causes you to not accept Prophet & Imams as wasa'il?

You are accepting the fact that you take assistance from sabr & salah but not accepting the other fact i.e., you also take assistance of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams (عليه السلام), for they are the ones from whom you have learned the same? 

2 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

I do not say "Ya sabr Ya salah help me" in the same way I do not say "Ya Ali Ya Muhammad (peace be upon them all) help me"

lol, do you not say:

ربنا افرغ علينا صبرا و ثبت اقدامنا وانصرنا على القوم الكافرين ? 

The above are the words of some pious people and quoted by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in Quran:

وَلَمَّا بَرَزُواْ لِجَالُوتَ وَجُنُودِهِ قَالُواْ رَبَّنَا أَفْرِغْ عَلَيْنَا صَبْرًا وَثَبِّتْ أَقْدَامَنَا وَانصُرْنَا عَلَى الْقَوْمِ الْكَافِرِينَ

2:250

See the word قَالُواْ up there, it is the nass that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has quoted the words of some pious people. 

Similarly the verse:

الَّذِينَ إِذَا أَصَابَتْهُم مُّصِيبَةٌ قَالُواْ إِنَّا لِلّهِ وَإِنَّـا إِلَيْهِ رَاجِعونَ

2:156

Whose words are these? These are the words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which he uttered in battle of Uhad. So Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has quoted the words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and almost every Muslim when face the adversary call out these words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), hence take assistance of him. Why denial of the fact then? 

في أن قوله تعالى: * (الذين إذا أصابتهم مصيبة قالوا إنا لله وإنا إليه راجعون أولئك عليهم صلوات من ربهم ورحمة) * - الآية نزل في حق مولانا أمير المؤمنين صلوات الله عليه لما وصل إليه قتل عمه حمزة في أحد قال: إنا لله وإنا إليه راجعون، كما في البحار

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1620_مستدرك-سفينة-البحار-الشيخ-علي-النمازي-الشاهرودي-ج-٦/الصفحة_428#top

3 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

But I pray so that Allah will help me, and I observe patience so that Allah will help me.

Similarly I DO SAY: "I ask for your help by the wasilah of your Prophet (S) and his pure progeny ((عليه السلام).)" 

That's good. We have no problem with that. Infact the same is what we do too. 

[Muhammad Qaim]

3 hours ago, Cool said:

Ok, do you not "invoke" Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in your salah? 

Do you not say السلام عليك ايها النبي و رحمة الله و بركاته ?

No, although our manner of sending salutations on the prophet is this: "Peace and blessing be upon you O' Prophet", however, in reality, salam is actually a prayer to Allah to send blessings on His Messenger. Sure, the أسلوب is that of direct invocation, but the essence is that the Prophet does not hear us. Allah hears us and sends down blessings on His Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

In Fiqh, it is obligatory for the hearer of the salam to make sure the other person hears the answer of salam. But we do not hear the Prophet's salam back, do we? 

This is also the reason for when Allah says "صلو عليه و سلمو تسليما", in obedience to this command of Allah, we invoke Allah to send blessings on the Prophet and his family.

That is why the  complete and actual salawat is recited like this: اللهم صل على محمد و ال محمد 

Even when we say صلو عليك يا نبي what we really mean is اللهم 

Because WE lack power to send blessings on the Prophet, hence we ASK ALLAH to send blessing on the Prophet. Doesn't matter the أسلوب، the invocation is to Allah.

Quote

That's good, but what causes you to not accept Prophet & Imams as wasa'il?

You are accepting the fact that you take assistance from sabr & salah but not accepting the other fact i.e., you also take assistance of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams (عليه السلام), for they are the ones from whom you have learned the same?

As to the second point. I DID ACCEPT THEM AS WASAA'IL BRO

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO "YELL" AT YOU (IN THE INTERNET LANGUAGE) THAT I ACCEPT TAWASSUL. 

But I do not accept direct invocation to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). in light of Qur'anic verses where Allah prohibits invocation.

Quote

Whose words are these? These are the words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) which he uttered in battle of Uhad. So Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has quoted the words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and almost every Muslim when face the adversary call out these words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), hence take assistance of him. Why denial of the fact then? 

Wrong again. It's true that those are Imam's words. However, when we says those words the one invoked is Allah. The one who hears us is Allah. Imams invoked Allah. They taught us that. We do that because they taught us. That's true. But that does not mean we are seeking their assistance in whatever hardship we are facing.

We are "using their method" to "call upon Allah".

For example, when we read ربنا تقبل منا إنك أنت السميع العليم, who are we invoking?

Allah, right?

But wait! If we apply your logic, then this is the prayer of Ibrahim (عليه السلام). and Ismail (عليه السلام).

So we must be seeking these two prophets' help? Right? 

WHAT A PATHETIC ARGUMENT!

The moment you say ربنا or رب, the One being invoked is Allah, no matter who taught us the words, the one being supplicated to is Allah. The مخاطب is Allah. 

The more that I read your replies, the more of my logic seems to go away. It is tiring breaking down your fallacies one by one.

[Muhammad Qaim]

@Cool I have two replies from 7 hours ago that are still awaiting moderation. They're hidden and highlighted in red. I do not know when they will become visible to you all. Similarly, There is one reply that I posted a few minutes ago that is in the same boat.

In total 3 are left to be approved.

 

[Muhammad Qaim]

The supplication of Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام). that is famous as "Dua Abu Hamzah Thumali" is in alignment with Allah's words in Surah Fatir:

الحمد لله الذي لا أدعو غيرَهُ و لو دَعَوتُ غيرَهُ لم يستجب لي دعائي و الحمد لله الذي لا أرجو غيرَهُ و لَو رَجَوتُ غيرَهُ لأَخلَف رَجائي

"Praise be to Allah other than whom I do not call upon, and if I called upon other than Him, my prayer would not be answered and praise be to Allah from other than Whom I do not hope and even if I hope from anyone else, he will disappoint me"

Now read the verses:

As for those whom you invoke besides Him, they do not control so much as the husk of a date stone. (13) If you invoke them they will not hear your invocation, and even if they heard they cannot respond to you [35:13-14]

If Allah helps you, no one can overcome you, but if He forsakes you, who will help you after Him? So in Allah let all the faithful put their trust. [3:160]

Say, "Have you considered that which you invoke besides Allah? Show me what they have created of the earth; or did they have partnership in the heavens? Bring me a scripture before this or a trace of knowledge, if you should be truthful."  And who is more astray than he who invokes besides Allah those who will not respond to him until the Day of Resurrection, and they, of their invocation, are unaware.  [46:4-5]

Even if the chain of narrators linking this supplication to the 4th Imam is found to be weak (I'm not saying it has been), the format would be applicable and unproblematic as long as it CONFORMS exactly to the Qur'an. 

Dua Tawassul, which has no chain linking it to any Imam (عليه السلام). has been found to be weak and not from Ahl Al-Bayt, and similar is the case of Du'a Al Faraj. The scholars of Rijaal have put forward researches showing this. For that source, however, one would have to do some digging. But that is not needed as long as one ponders over the Qur'an with pure intention.

[Cool]

8 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

No, although our manner of sending salutations on the prophet is this: "Peace and blessing be upon you O' Prophet", however, in reality, salam is actually a prayer to Allah to send blessings on His Messenger.

So we now need to discuss what salam is according to Quran. Whether it is a dua or a greeting? So here are the verses:

 دَعْوَاهُمْ فِيهَا سُبْحَانَكَ اللَّهُمَّ وَتَحِيَّتُهُمْ فِيهَا سَلَامٌ ۚ وَآخِرُ دَعْوَاهُمْ أَنِ الْحَمْدُ لِلَّهِ رَبِّ الْعَالَمِينَ

10:10

The greeting is enveloped between the two dua. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has used the word دَعْوَاهُمْ precisely for what is dua and mentioned precisely what is greeting as تَحِيَّتُهُمْ.

تَحِيَّتُهُمْ يَوْمَ يَلْقَوْنَهُ سَلَامٌ ۚ وَأَعَدَّ لَهُمْ أَجْرًا كَرِيمًا

33:44

Again the word تَحِيَّتُهُمْ

So may I ask now what is salam according to Quran? 

And why you greet the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) directly, in your prayer? 

8 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Sure, the أسلوب is that of direct invocation, but the essence is that the Prophet does not hear us. Allah hears us and sends down blessings on His Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

lol, you are getting pathetic again.

So you invoke the one in first place who, according to you, cannot hear you (are you crazy?) then Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) jump into the scene and pick up your call and extend your greeting to His Apostle.

So Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made His Apostle to hear your greeting but according to you, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) cannot hear your greeting. 

And since you are repeating again and again the Prophet cannot hear you, nor can he see you, I would like to repeat my unanswered question, why did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has appointed such a witness over us who neither able to listen nor see? 

8 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

In Fiqh, it is obligatory for the hearer of the salam to make sure the other person hears the answer of salam. But we do not hear the Prophet's salam back, do we? 

lol, it is mustahab to do the salam and it is obligatory to answer the salam. 

Imagine if a deaf or a person who has impaired hearing, say salam to you, you would be in a deep trouble  because according to your fiqh, it is obligatory on you to make him hear the answer, that would really require a miracle. 

So we do the mustahab part and satisfied with our knowledge that since it is obligatory to answer the salam therefore Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) will certainly answer, may we not perceive or hear his answer. Like we believe he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is alive with his Lord, even though we do not perceive his life. 

9 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

As to the second point. I DID ACCEPT THEM AS WASAA'IL BRO

HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO "YELL" AT YOU (IN THE INTERNET LANGUAGE) THAT I ACCEPT TAWASSUL. 

But I do not accept direct invocation to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). in light of Qur'anic verses where Allah prohibits invocation

You don't need to yell at me. Yell at yourself and stop lying me. Yes, you are a liar, you call the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) directly, in your prayers, at least five times a day yet you believe your Prophet cannot hear you therefore it is Allah in reality whom you are invoking.

So by this logic, You must say Ya Ali Madad too, because Ali (عليه السلام) cannot hear you and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) hear you and He will let or depute Ali (عليه السلام) to help you because as per your belief Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is القادر.

9 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Wrong again. It's true that those are Imam's words. However, when we says those words the one invoked is Allah.

lol, no one invoke anyone by saying "inna lillah wa inna ilayhe raji'oon" (we belongs to Allah & to Him is our return). You just remind this fact, this truth to yourself or to each other. I am not going to do the tafseer of this profound sentence. 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is witness & sufficient is He as witness. So whether you invoke Him or not, He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is scanning you all the time by watching & hearing you. 

So I once again repeat my unanswered question here too, why such a Magnificent Lord, who alone is sufficient as witness, has appointed witnesses, other then Him, over us? And those witness are such,.which according to you, cannot hear or see you...

9 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

We are "using their method" to "call upon Allah".

For example, when we read ربنا تقبل منا إنك أنت السميع العليم, who are we invoking?

Allah, right?

But wait! If we apply your logic, then this is the prayer of Ibrahim (عليه السلام). and Ismail (عليه السلام).

So we must be seeking these two prophets' help? Right? 

WHAT A PATHETIC ARGUMENT!

I do think that you need to carefully read first what you are trying to say here. 

By the way, what is my logic? 

I have only stated that you or every Muslim are repeating the words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), taking help of words attributed to him and yet deny that they take their help. 

13 hours ago, Cool said:

So Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has quoted the words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and almost every Muslim when face the adversary call out these words of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), hence take assistance of him. Why denial of the fact then? 

So it appears to me that your comprehension is also pathetic. 

9 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

The more that I read your replies, the more of my logic seems to go away. It is tiring breaking down your fallacies one by one.

Yes, it is expected from you to chant this "pigeon chess" sort of thing. 

[Cool]

3 hours ago, Muhammad Qaim said:

Praise be to Allah other than whom I do not call upon, and if I called upon other than Him, my prayer would not be answered

You need to look at your writing skills once again. It was you who stated this:

On 6/10/2023 at 10:54 PM, Muhammad Qaim said:

let us clarify what is dua: The literal meaning of the word is "calling, invocation, or supplication." Depending upon the action and intent of the doer, (1) it can be done to Allah also, (2) and the Infallibles also

You stated a lie here that dua can be done to infallibles. I corrected you:

23 hours ago, Cool said:

Dua is worship according to many sahih ahadith. So technically, dua cannot be done to the ones whom we don't worship. 

# 2 in above quote is your misinterpretation as there is only Allah, the One & Only Lord, worthy of being worshipped. 

And now you are referring me the words of my Imam (عليه السلام) instead of reading and remembering them yourself so that next time you don't even think that anyone can make dua to the one whom he do not worship. 

And I posted a specific question, from which you are running. Look at # 1 in the following quote:

On 6/10/2023 at 8:32 PM, Cool said:

So it is upon you to prove to us few things;

1. What makes our words "dua" and what makes them "istightha"? 

2. The very beings of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams cannot be our "wasilah".

3. If calling other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is shirk, why you call Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) in your salah by saying:

السلام عليك ايها النبي

4. And that the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams عليهم السلام cannot help us by doing istaghfaar for us. They cannot listen to our salutation and istighatha and yet they are the divinely appointed witnesses 

You are getting more and more pathetic.