Even if I accept the principle of Imamah, ghayba is still an issue

[X96]

Let's say the role of the Prophet was a spiritual and social leader, we have texts that show after him there was spiritual and social leaders (underground movements types) of the Shi'a Imams, the main thing was, these imams were present and could give direct guidance to issues for example.

Yet, when we talk about the 12th Imam, he is in ghayba, and no one can claim they have met him or received guidance. Then how example is he fulfilling his role as an imam, what about modern issues that Muslims face, Shia's have had to take it into their own hands, like the lack of a state despite a Shi'a majority was taken into the hands of Khomeini (which should have really been the Imam but ok), or Sistani giving guidance. These guys have literally become Imam like figures in shiism, and the whole reason is because we cannot access the Imam, which to me and I will accept it if I can be proven wrong seems unjustifiable for a position of an Imam

[layman]

7 hours ago, X96 said:

Let's say the role of the Prophet was a spiritual and social leader, we have texts that show after him there was spiritual and social leaders (underground movements types) of the Shi'a Imams, the main thing was, these imams were present and could give direct guidance to issues for example.

Yet, when we talk about the 12th Imam, he is in ghayba, and no one can claim they have met him or received guidance. Then how example is he fulfilling his role as an imam, what about modern issues that Muslims face, Shia's have had to take it into their own hands, like the lack of a state despite a Shi'a majority was taken into the hands of Khomeini (which should have really been the Imam but ok), or Sistani giving guidance. These guys have literally become Imam like figures in shiism, and the whole reason is because we cannot access the Imam, which to me and I will accept it if I can be proven wrong seems unjustifiable for a position of an Imam

Salam,

This writing is my understanding.

We believe that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Prophet and Ulil-Amr are our wali and able to give direct guidance to humans when they are not physically available.

For those who get direct guidance cannot make  a claim to the public and tell people to follow them because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Rasulullah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) or Imams (عليه السلام) talk to them directly (e.g last night, just now, last year...).  If they do that without permission then they are liar.  Meaning Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Rasulullah and Imams will not approve their claims.  We are not officially appointed  spoke person for our Wali.

In reality, our Wali (Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Rasul and Imams) are able to give guidance directly, BUT we cannot make it public and use it as hujjah to others.  It supposedly to be tightly guarded secret between us and our Wali.

If we ever get a direct guidance from our Wali, we need to refer back the message of the guidance to Quran, hadiths, and other Scholars for verifications.  We have to make it such that it appears we get the guidance through intellectual, physical or research efforts before we deliver the message from the guidance to others.

I do believe our important persons that are currently protecting Islam and ummah by adhering to Ahlulbayt, get direct guidance from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), Rasulullah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and Ahlulbayt, in particular Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) on how they should perform their tasks.

 

Let think if we don't get direct guidance from our Wali on daily basis...who then guide us?  What will happen to us?  

Wallahualam 

Edited May 26, 2023 by layman

[Cool]

12 hours ago, X96 said:

Let's say the role of the Prophet was a spiritual and social leader,

Salam!!

This question itself holds the answer to your question above and what you wanted to know about the 12th Imam. 

Lets discuss the first one i.e., Prophethood.

What is the role of Prophet? 

You said the role of Prophet is to act as spiritual & social leader. 

This sounds very limited role, you need to expand the sphere of the role of Nubuwah, first of all.

Now lets take the example of Prophet Yunus (عليه السلام) for instance, he was alive but remain in the belly of fish for some time i.e., he remained in ghaybah from his nation for some time. How would you view the time period in which his nation remain leaderless spiritually & socially? 

Now come to Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). His "Prophethood" remain in ghaybah for 40 years and after 40 years he proclaimed his mission. 

So why Jesus (عليه السلام) started his mission immediate after birth? And Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) took 40 years to proclaim his mission? And why there is a huge gap of 600 years between Jesus a s & Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

There infact are lessons in these stories & situations. I am not going to answer these questions, I want to encourage you to look into the matter from that angle. 

12 hours ago, X96 said:

we have texts that show after him there was spiritual and social leaders

Yes indeed. But lets see the life of very first Imam i.e., Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام). Was he a spiritual & social leader of the muslim ummah after the wafat of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

If you say yes, I would question why his role as "spiritual & social guide" remained in ghaybah for so long? I mean he wasn't the "apparent" spiritual & social leader of Muslims in the times of Abu Bakt, Umar ,& Uthman.

If you say no, I would ask why? 

Look I am specifically trying to raise the questions which are related to the "role" you mentioned for Prophets & Imams (peace & blessings of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) be upon them). 

So Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) reveal to Musa's mother about him, then allowed Musa (عليه السلام) to grow up under the protection of Fir'on but Musa (عليه السلام) didn't proclaimed his mission on his own. 

Now come to Khizr (عليه السلام), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) deputed him on batin. He is not obliged to proclaim anything, he just work for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) while staying in ghaybah for people. Khizr (عليه السلام) came out of his ghaybah for Musa (عليه السلام) as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) deputed him to teach some lesson to Musa (عليه السلام) (I would rather say "to teach lesson to us"). 

I hope you will do some homework we will Insha Allah reach to the answer of your question by adopting a rational approach. 

Wassalam!!

[X96]

4 hours ago, Cool said:

Salam!!

This question itself holds the answer to your question above and what you wanted to know about the 12th Imam. 

Lets discuss the first one i.e., Prophethood.

What is the role of Prophet? 

You said the role of Prophet is to act as spiritual & social leader. 

This sounds very limited role, you need to expand the sphere of the role of Nubuwah, first of all.

Now lets take the example of Prophet Yunus (عليه السلام) for instance, he was alive but remain in the belly of fish for some time i.e., he remained in ghaybah from his nation for some time. How would you view the time period in which his nation remain leaderless spiritually & socially? 

Now come to Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). His "Prophethood" remain in ghaybah for 40 years and after 40 years he proclaimed his mission. 

So why Jesus (عليه السلام) started his mission immediate after birth? And Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) took 40 years to proclaim his mission? And why there is a huge gap of 600 years between Jesus a s & Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

There infact are lessons in these stories & situations. I am not going to answer these questions, I want to encourage you to look into the matter from that angle. 

Yes indeed. But lets see the life of very first Imam i.e., Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام). Was he a spiritual & social leader of the muslim ummah after the wafat of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

If you say yes, I would question why his role as "spiritual & social guide" remained in ghaybah for so long? I mean he wasn't the "apparent" spiritual & social leader of Muslims in the times of Abu Bakt, Umar ,& Uthman.

If you say no, I would ask why? 

Look I am specifically trying to raise the questions which are related to the "role" you mentioned for Prophets & Imams (peace & blessings of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) be upon them). 

So Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) reveal to Musa's mother about him, then allowed Musa (عليه السلام) to grow up under the protection of Fir'on but Musa (عليه السلام) didn't proclaimed his mission on his own. 

Now come to Khizr (عليه السلام), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) deputed him on batin. He is not obliged to proclaim anything, he just work for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) while staying in ghaybah for people. Khizr (عليه السلام) came out of his ghaybah for Musa (عليه السلام) as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) deputed him to teach some lesson to Musa (عليه السلام) (I would rather say "to teach lesson to us"). 

I hope you will do some homework we will Insha Allah reach to the answer of your question by adopting a rational approach. 

Wassalam!!

What is the role of Prophet? 

You said the role of Prophet is to act as spiritual & social leader. 

This sounds very limited role, you need to expand the sphere of the role of Nubuwah, first of all.

 

- Okay let me expand on from this:

¹a messenger from among themselves, reading His signs²to them and purifying them and teaching them the Scripture and wisdom—although they were indeed in evident misguidance before that 

 

62:2

 

Is this sufficient?

 

Now lets take the example of Prophet Yunus (عليه السلام) for instance, he was alive but remain in the belly of fish for some time i.e., he remained in ghaybah from his nation for some time. How would you view the time period in which his nation remain leaderless spiritually & socially? 

Now come to Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). His "Prophethood" remain in ghaybah for 40 years and after 40 years he proclaimed his mission. 

So why Jesus (عليه السلام) started his mission immediate after birth? And Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) took 40 years to proclaim his mission? And why there is a huge gap of 600 years between Jesus a s & Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

- I cannot answer this, I don't know why which is why I'm exploring the issue of ghayba

I cannot answer why and what was hidden in Prophet Younus time, secondly I cannot address the Jesus - Prophet issue because according to Shi'a ideology as far as I understand there is always a constant/successor witness over the earth. If Jesus passed away who was the successor after him, Shi'a hadiths seem to indicate Shamoon/Simon Peter but that's it. That still around a 600 year gap unexplained from what I understand from the Shi'a perspective and seems inconsistent.

 

Yes indeed. But lets see the life of very first Imam i.e., Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (عليه السلام). Was he a spiritual & social leader of the muslim ummah after the wafat of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)?

If you say yes, I would question why his role as "spiritual & social guide" remained in ghaybah for so long? I mean he wasn't the "apparent" spiritual & social leader of Muslims in the times of Abu Bakt, Umar ,& Uthman.

According to Shia ideology yes, I have no view on this, but even if it wasn't apparent, Ali was still accessible and tangible, so much so that even Omar had asked him for guidance on religious issues, unlike the current Imam which was cannot have a tangible evidence for.

 

I see your Khidr point and what not, but atleast this is actually claimed by God in the Qur'an, an issue of ghayba for example for future leaders atleast should be also claimed, infact we don't see this, what we see is verses claiming that the Prophet Mohammad will be witness over all mankind.

 

I am just trying to understand. 

[Muslim2010]

6 hours ago, Cool said:

Now come to Khizr (عليه السلام), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) deputed him on batin. He is not obliged to proclaim anything, he just work for Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) while staying in ghaybah for people. Khizr (عليه السلام) came out of his ghaybah for Musa (عليه السلام) as Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) deputed him to teach some lesson to Musa (عليه السلام) (I would rather say "to teach lesson to us"). 

As far life of our prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) of first forty years is analyzed then it is revealed that he presented only his character and he lived a pious life. During this period the kuffar accepted him as words of Sadiq and Amin.

But his identity as prophet was revealed when he was given order beginning to deliver the message of Islam. Some scholar consider this was a period of the gahyba of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) where his identity was kept hidden as a prophet but only he was physically present and recognized as son of Abdullah.  This was necessary to keep him safe before delivering the message of islam. There is well known hadith that the our prophet s,a,w was a prophet even when Adam as. was between the earth and water.

But the characteristic of gahyba for Imam Mahdi as. has more intensity and importance as he is the last savoir of humanity and he is the 12th successor after the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). As he will bring the peace and justice to the entire world so Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has made arrangement to keep him out of sight of common people in order to protect him from enemies. His guidance function also mentioned by yourself does not require him to be physically seen and recognized by the people that he is the 12 imam. The prophet Jesus / Esa (عليه السلام) will come and pray behind Imam Mahdi a,s when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) permit him to appear to the eyes of the people out of his ghayba.

The above is my view and words for ghayba of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام).

wasalam

[Ethics]

I find it ironic that people can accept that Satan who we cannot see nor hear have such an effect on our existence, that is able to influence man, although evil at the same time & in different times in different places and different people. But if God decides to test mankind and only take away in "presence" His holy leader, people all of a sudden cannot accept or believe that. What nonsense. People so easily accept boogeymen ghosts devil superstitions having negative effects, but a mercy a blessing at the very least will reappear and bring justice and peace once and for all..oh no its hard to believe..

Do you believe an almighty lord is all good? Do you believe that an all mighty lord must effect us in good and positive ways even though we cannot see him nor hear him? Do you believe those chosen and sent by God for all of mankind had a positive and good effect even though people were not directly near or around him, AND even did not know that they existed yet they were recipients as well? It is the same for the Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام) while he exists, does the work of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the sake of the ummah, but we do not see it nor have access to him unless Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) allows it to some people..

I highly recommend these reads to get a more better understanding in his role and purpose:

An Inquiry Concerning Al-Mahdi By Sayyid Muhammad Baqir al-Sadr

Al-Imam al-Mahdi, The Just Leader of Humanity By Ibrahim Amini

This Six Article Series On Examining Imam Mahdi By Mohammad Ali Shomali:
https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-16-no-2-summer-2015/globe-advent-imam-mahdi-part-1-shomali

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-16-no-3-autumn-2015/globe-advent-imam-mahdi-part-2-shomali

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-16-no-4-winter-2016/globe-advent-imam-mahdi-part-3-shomali

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-17-no-1-spring-2016/globe-advent-imam-mahdi-part-4-shomali

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-17-no-2-summer-2016/globe-advent-imam-mahdi-part-5-shomali

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-17-no-3-autumn-2016/globe-advent-imam-mahdi-part-6-shomali

Edited May 26, 2023 by Ethics

[kadhim]

I think the OP is right to recognize this sort of long-extended ghaybah as a problematic thing in relation to the traditional conception of imamate. If a present, divinely-appointed imam in the world is necessary to fulfill all these various forms of wilaayat of humankind (legislative, political, intellectual, ethical, spiritual, etc) is understood as an indispensable part of proper functioning of human civilization, then it’s a problem that this person is, for all intents and purposes, not accessible. If we are supposed to be absolutely dependent on the presence of such leadership to explain everything to us at all levels, then it’s a problem if he’s only known to those few who happen to run into him and no one really knows who he is. 

I think a lot of these problems vanish if we understand instead that the purpose of this absence is to give us the space to become more independent, to learn how to think for ourselves and handle most of the small and medium sized parts of leadership ourselves. Then his return some day becomes a matter of him providing a broad, high-level Godly vision for mankind with people under him autonomously capable of figuring out the details without the need for handholding and micromanagement. 

Ironically enough, the Usooli movement of Shia Islam that has become our mainstream in recent has understood this idea, to some extent at least, for centuries. It recognized that functions of the imam’s constant leadership were necessary, and needed to be taken up by people. At a certain point though, it seems that courage in the project flagged when it came to maintaining the vibrancy of jurisprudence. A venture too far from the comfortable familiarity of centuries-old pronouncements of the imams uttered in a completely different world paradoxically drives a straying from the path as fiqh loses grounding with the reality changes in the world.

Strangely enough, no such timidity was present in the political domain, where Usooli scholars found justifications for greater and greater forays into grabbing hold of political power. This trend of course culminated in the modern Iranian Republic project. 

Unfortunately, the lack of similar boldness on the jurisprudence front meant that the efforts of these scholarticians fell far short of expectations.  Trying as they did to govern a modern country in the late 20th and early 21st centuries with approaches crafted for a vastly different medieval world. 

[Maisam Haider]

1 hour ago, kadhim said:

a lot of these problems vanish if we understand instead that the purpose of this absence is to give us the space to become more independent, to learn how to think for ourselves and handle most of the small and medium sized parts of leadership ourselves

Using this logic, a sunni can claim (and they actually do claim) that the same thing happened when the Prophet left this world. They say that the Prophet left us to be independent, to be able to handle leadership ourselves. If shias can apply this format for the 12th Imam, the sunnis say why can they not apply the same for the Prophet. 

Of course, we know sunnis are wrong because the Prophet (s) directly appointed Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as his successor. But the sunnis can make an argument that if the 12th Imam of shias can leave without naming a successor and he left them to be independent to sort out leadership, then what's the problem if the Prophet applied the same principle. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by Maisam Haider

[Muslim2010]

12 hours ago, Ethics said:

I highly recommend these reads to get a more better understanding in his role and purpose:

An Inquiry Concerning Al-Mahdi By Sayyid Muhammad Baqir al-Sadr

Al-Imam al-Mahdi, The Just Leader of Humanity By Ibrahim Amini

This Six Article Series On Examining Imam Mahdi By Mohammad Ali Shomali:
https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-16-no-2-summer-2015/globe-advent-imam-mahdi-part-1-shomali

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-16-no-3-autumn-2015/globe-advent-imam-mahdi-part-2-shomali

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-16-no-4-winter-2016/globe-advent-imam-mahdi-part-3-shomali

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-17-no-1-spring-2016/globe-advent-imam-mahdi-part-4-shomali

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-17-no-2-summer-2016/globe-advent-imam-mahdi-part-5-shomali

https://www.al-islam.org/message-thaqalayn/vol-17-no-3-autumn-2016/globe-advent-imam-mahdi-part-6-shomali

One of the best answer  my opinion by Shia scholar for replying to Sunnis about the philosophy of Ghayba of Imam Al Mahdi can be seen at the following link:

Further hadith both from sunni and shia sources about Imam AL Mahdi (عليه السلام) can be seen at the links given below for evidence about the presence of Imam Mahdi in Islam at the first link. The second link defines the details about the continuity of Guidance function(s) in the Ghayba of Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام):

wasalam

Edited May 27, 2023 by Muslim2010

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 5/26/2023 at 1:56 AM, X96 said:

ce, Shia's have had to take it into their own hands, like the lack of a state despite a Shi'a majority was taken into the hands of Khomeini (which should have really been the Imam but ok), or Sistani giving guidance. These guys have literally become Imam like figures in shiism, and the whole reason is because we cannot access the Imam, which to me and I will accept it if I can be proven wrong seems unjustifiable for a position of an Imam

Salam according to Shia muslims Marjas are deputies of Imam Mahdi (aj) which as much as they are more pious & sincere so therefore they reflect more signs of attributes  of Imam Mahdi (aj) in similar fashion a more clear & pure mirror reflects more light & accurate reflection but mirror doesn't become real image or source of light by itself  which Imam Khomeini & grand ayatollah Sistani reflect some attributes of Imam mahdi (aj) as pious & sincere his deputies at our era which Imam Khomeini has received title of Imam from people because in eyes of people he has reflected attribute of Imam Mahdi (aj) as his deputy(legate) .

Quote

Imam Khomeini: God has preserved The Promised Mahdī in reserve to carry out prophets' mission when God deems fit

Sahifeh-ye-Imam, Vol.12, page 408

Imam Khomeini: Imam Mahdi will bring man from the abyss of depravation. It is said: “He fills the earth with justice after having been replete with tyranny.”

Sahifeh-ye-Imam, Vol.12, page 409

 

http://en.imam-khomeini.ir/en/key/Imam-Khomeini-and-Imam-Mahdi

Quote

So it manifests its company with prophet Muhammad (pbh) through forceful against the disbelievers,merciful among themselves. Khomeini had a drop from all prophets’ epistle , so the world which had a lot of evolutions because of separation from perfect man understand what it has and what it doesn’t , what it wants and what doesn’t.

And if Imam Mahdi is the inheritor of all prophets , his legates are also helpers of Allah…
And it’s not strange that Imam Mahdi’s legates have all the characteristics they should have…

https://rahyafteha.ir/en/11371/imam-khomeini-and-human/

 

Quote

Martyr Ayatollah Baqir Sadr was deeply impressed by Imam Khomeini.

Extracted from a collection of memoirs about Imam Khomeini

ID:   74150   03/04/2022

It has been reported through a series of memoirs that Martyr Ayatollah Baqir Sadr was a great supporter of Imam Khomeini’s struggle for the Islamic Revolution.

 He was pursuing Imam’s path to dismantle Saddam’s brutal regime in Iraq just on the same pattern as Imam overthrew the Western back Shah regime in Iran.

Ayatollah Mostajabi once said that al-Sadr wanted me to become a coordinator between him and Imam.

Many letters and communications were exchanged between Imam and al-Sadr before and following the victory of the Islamic Revolution.

(Extracted from a collection of memoirs about Imam Khomeini)

http://en.imam-khomeini.ir/en/n46306/Martyr-Ayatollah-Baqir-Sadr-was-deeply-impressed-by-Imam-Khomeini-

Ayatollah Baqir al-Sadr termed Imam Khomeini as great divine treasure of contemporary history

Mohammad Baqir al-Sadr, who had great devotion towards Imam Khomeini, in a historic message had termed Imam the great divine treasure and strength for the Islamic societies in contemporary history.

http://en.imam-khomeini.ir/en/n41267/Imam-s-letter-to-Martyr-Sadr

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

4 hours ago, kadhim said:

Ironically enough, the Usooli movement of Shia Islam that has become our mainstream in recent has understood this idea, to some extent at least, for centuries. It recognized that functions of the imam’s constant leadership were necessary, and needed to be taken up by people. At a certain point though, it seems that courage in the project flagged when it came to maintaining the vibrancy of jurisprudence. A venture too far from the comfortable familiarity of centuries-old pronouncements of the imams uttered in a completely different world paradoxically drives a straying from the path as fiqh loses grounding with the reality changes in the world.

Strangely enough, no such timidity was present in the political domain, where Usooli scholars found justifications for greater and greater forays into grabbing hold of political power. This trend of course culminated in the modern Iranian Republic project. 

Unfortunately, the lack of similar boldness on the jurisprudence front meant that the efforts of these scholarticians fell far short of expectations.  Trying as they did to govern a modern country in the late 20th and early 21st centuries with approaches crafted for a vastly different medieval world. 

Salam this is just your weirdo idea anyway Shia Islam always have been a positive political religion against all false & negative so called Islamic Caliphates & kingship which they don't give opportunity to Shia Imams to establish right government after martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) which after centuries since Buyid dynasty Shias could revive practicing religion & politics together although of all shortcomings & ups & downs  which both of Akhbaris & Usulis have their share in it but in opposition to your claim about calling shia jurisprudence as medieval matter which doesn't fit to modern world revolution of Iran & forming a government based on shia jurisprudence although of all Shortcomings has shown that shia jurisprudence is compatible with modern world also it's ideals can lead us to post modern era in opposition to your claims because it's jurisprudence can create a new brave world instead of following obsolete western rules which have been based on your favorite medieval Greco-roman  ideas which no longer compatible with modern era. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

addendum

Imam Khomeini’s substantial role in Islamic civilization revival

https://www.shora-gc.ir/en/news/182/imam-khomeini’s-substantial-role-in-islamic-civilization-revival

[Ashvazdanghe]

Rays of the Sun, 83 Stories from the Life of Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه)

Foundation of the Representation of the Office of Spiritual Leadership in Universities

Imam and Imam Mahdi (aj)

At the beck and call of Imam Mahdi’s orders

Hazrat Baqiyatullah has commanded so:

https://www.al-islam.org/rays-sun-83-stories-life-imam-khomeini-ra/imam-and-imam-mahdi-aj

[kadhim]

8 hours ago, Maisam Haider said:

Using this logic, a sunni can claim (and they actually do claim) that the same thing happened when the Prophet left this world. They say that the Prophet left us to be independent, to be able to handle leadership ourselves. If shias can apply this format for the 12th Imam, the sunnis say why can they not apply the same for the Prophet. 

Of course, we know sunnis are wrong because the Prophet (s) directly appointed Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as his successor. But the sunnis can make an argument that if the 12th Imam of shias can leave without naming a successor and he left them to be independent to sort out leadership, then what's the problem if the Prophet applied the same principle. 

I can see how you might be tempted to reach for that as a counter. But the fact is it’s a subtly different argument from the Sunni one. Notably, it still allows for the Imam to be there working on his own projects and preparation in parallel alongside side us, but unnoticed and incognito. 

After 1200 years of this though, it is hard, if we allow ourselves to be honest, to critique the Sunnis here too harshly. We are after all, for all practical intents and purposes, facing the same situation as we would be if they were correct. We just got there ~250 years later than they did. 

It’s also a little awkward for you guys to critique my point of view here too harshly when, as I pointed out, our scholars have already, practically speaking activated ~75% or more of the spirit of what I am saying.

Listen, I’m just putting this out there. You can agree or disagree. I tend to think it offers a much more coherent picture of what we’re really supposed to be doing with all of this time left to ourselves. 

Edited May 27, 2023 by kadhim

[Ashvazdanghe]

19 hours ago, kadhim said:

After 1200 years of this though, it is hard, if we allow ourselves to be honest, to critique the Sunnis here too harshly. We are after all, for all practical intents and purposes, facing the same situation as we would be if they were correct. We just got there ~250 years later than they did. 

Salam Sunnis believe to coming of Imam Mahdi (aj)  but due to influencing from Zoroastrianism they believethat he will born in future as normal fallible man which at one night he will repent from all his sins so then he will receive qualification of a leader due to his repentance.

19 hours ago, kadhim said:

It’s also a little awkward for you guys to critique my point of view here too harshly when, as I pointed out, our scholars have already, practically speaking activated ~75% or more of the spirit of what I am saying.

critiquing you is a joke because our scholars have been speaking it since era of sheikh Mufid (رضي الله عنه) since start of great occultation which because you are new to Islam or you have affected by propaganda of radical people likewise wahabis & Salafis so then you have fallen in doubt.

 

[Cool]

On 5/26/2023 at 9:23 PM, X96 said:

Is this sufficient?

It still lacking very important positions. Do some more home work please. I am giving an example:

و انك لتهدي الى صراط المستقيم

42:52) and most surely you show the way to the right path

On 5/26/2023 at 9:23 PM, X96 said:

I cannot answer this, I don't know why which is why I'm exploring the issue of ghayba

Ok, so I think we go straight to ghayba factor, forget about any further homework.

On 5/26/2023 at 9:23 PM, X96 said:

what we see is verses claiming that the Prophet Mohammad will be witness over all mankind.

Well, are you sure this is the case? I am going to clear this thing first.

Lets see few verses first:

وَكَذَٰلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا ۗ 

2:143) And thus We have made you a medium (just) nation that you may be the bearers of witness to the people and (that) the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you;

Who is this "just/medium nation"? The nation which is appointed as witness over people by Lord Almighty. Any idea? 

And you also have seen that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is witness over that "just/medium nation". 

This verse brings for us another role of Prophet and Imams i.e., witnessing (الشهادة). 

And my dear brother, this alone is the key. Remember that point and ask your question regarding this so that I can further elaborate this point. At the moment, I am moving ahead for quoting more verses to further confirm you that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is witness over some people specifically:

فَكَيْفَ إِذَا جِئْنَا مِنْ كُلِّ أُمَّةٍ بِشَهِيدٍ وَجِئْنَا بِكَ عَلَىٰ هَٰؤُلَاءِ شَهِيدًا 

4:41) How will it be, then, when We bring from every people a witness and bring you as a witness against these?

These verses points out clearly that Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is a witness over every prophet and specifically over the Imams of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام who are directly addressed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in the coming verse which I am about to quote. 

But understand that brother, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) presence is must for witnessing from Adam (عليه السلام) to Jesus (عليه السلام). I am not talking about physical/bodily or material presence, I am talking about spiritual presence, presence of the light of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) witnessing the "Ummatan Wasatan" ( from Adam (عليه السلام) to Jesus (عليه السلام) and from Ali (عليه السلام) to Mehdi ajtf). Now understand the period of ghaybah of Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) before his physical appearance.  

Agha Poya has expressed this in his tafseer:

"Allah shall bring, from among every people, a witness, and bring the Holy Prophet as a witness over those witnesses. It indicates that the Holy Prophet was present in the times of all the prophets. He is also a witness over the holy Imams. His spiritual and essential presence in all times to witness the performance of the divinely commissioned messengers and guides proves that he was fully aware of the revelations revealed to Allah's messengers and the agency which communicated the revelations, so it is a blasphemy to say that he did not recognise angel Jibrail when he first came to him to convey Allah's message."

(https://quran.al-islam.org/)

Now finally the verse:

وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ ۚ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ ۚ مِلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ ۚ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ

22:78) And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

As you can see clearly, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is not being addressed here. So who are being addressed? Who are the ones which belongs to the family of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) as the verse says "faith of your father Ibrahim"? Who are the ones whom Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) named as "Muslims" before and in this Quran? Who are the ones who are appointed as "witness over people" and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) being witness over them? 

I am holding myself here. And would like to ask you, are you with me till this point or it is getting difficult for you? If you understood the "witnessing" (الشهادة)، you have travelled 75% distance, only 25% distance left to reach to the answer. 

I am waiting for your response so that we can either move ahead or either I can elaborate these points further.

Wassalam!!

[kadhim]

6 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

critiquing you is a joke because our scholars have been speaking it since era of sheikh Mufid (رضي الله عنه) since start of great occultation which because you are new to Islam or you have affected by propaganda of radical people likewise wahabis & Salafis so then you have fallen in doubt.

Cool. If it’s a joke, then you can just skip the useless commentary entirely. The whole stalking routine is getting a little tired, to be honest. 

Also, I didn’t express any doubt in the ghaybah here. You seem to be misunderstanding something.

[Cool]

يَا أَيُّهَا النَّبِيُّ إِنَّا أَرْسَلْنَاكَ شَاهِدًا وَمُبَشِّرًا وَنَذِيرًا {45}

[Shakir 33:45] O Prophet! surely We have sent you as a witness, and as a bearer of good news and as a warner,

وَدَاعِيًا إِلَى اللَّهِ بِإِذْنِهِ وَسِرَاجًا مُنِيرًا {46}

[Shakir 33:46] And as one inviting to Allah by His permission, and as a light-giving torch.

These two verses are mentioning the role of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). 

The 2nd verse of Chapter 62 is mentioning the prophetic mission which comes under the role # 4 in above verses i.e., one inviting to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by His permission. 

The very first role mentioned above is "witness", then 2nd "bearer of good news" then 3rd "warner" then 4th mentioned above and 5th is "light-giving torch". 

The 4th role is comprehensive in nature and Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) carryout that brief role "by the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)". So let me explain this role & the verse 2 of Jumma as quoted by @X96:

On 5/26/2023 at 9:23 PM, X96 said:

messenger from among themselves, reading His signs²to them and purifying them and teaching them the Scripture and wisdom—although they were indeed in evident misguidance before that 

 

62:2

يتلوا عليهم أياته is the first mission, but is under the clause "by His permission" as another verse in Quran says:

فإذا قرأناه فاتبع قرآنه 

75:18) Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.

Second mission يزكيهم (purify them), this too require Allah's permission as a verse of Quran says:

بل الله يزكي من يشاء

4:49) Nay, Allah purifies whom He pleases; 

Third mission يعلمهم الكتب والحكمة (teaching them the book and the wisdom), this too comes under the clause "باذن الله" as verses of Chapter 75 says:

إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا جَمْعَهُ وَقُرْآنَهُ {17}

[Shakir 75:17] Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.

فَإِذَا قَرَأْنَاهُ فَاتَّبِعْ قُرْآنَهُ {18}

[Shakir 75:18] Therefore when We have recited it, follow its recitation.

ثُمَّ إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا بَيَانَهُ {19}

[Shakir 75:19] Again on Us (devolves) the explaining of it.

Now "to guide" also comes under the clause "by the permission of Allah"

إِنَّكَ لَا تَهْدِي مَنْ أَحْبَبْتَ وَلَٰكِنَّ اللَّهَ يَهْدِي مَنْ يَشَاءُ ۚ وَهُوَ أَعْلَمُ بِالْمُهْتَدِينَ {56}

[Shakir 28:56] Surely you cannot guide whom you love, but Allah guides whom He pleases, and He knows best the followers of the right way.

See the difference, now whether "to lead" is a role of prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or it is one of his mission what comes under the clause "by the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)"? We need to look at it and I will Insha Allah put forward my research on this question soon. 

But for now lets see the all other 4 roles. 

1. Witness: Does Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) always need divine permission for this role? Or is it the fact the Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has sent him in that capacity i.e., He made him witness? 

Infact Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has sent him as witness. That is a one time authorization/appointment. 

2 & 3. Bearer of good news & Warner:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has sent him in this capacity. Appointment as prophet means bearer of good news and warner. This too is a one time authorization/appointment. 

5. Light-giving torch: This again is the very being of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), so he was famous as Sadiq & Ameen well before the official announcement of his prophetic mission. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has made him a light-giving torch i.e., he was "siraj e muneer" through out his existence. 

@X96 can you now understand why I am focusing on الشهادة? 

@Muslim2010, @Ashvazdanghe, I have expressed new line of reasoning above. 

Edited May 28, 2023 by Cool

[Guest Stranger Danger]

Salam

The signs have full manifestation on the day of judgment. That day no one will doubt the truth. Till then, the truth can be hidden to some extend and by design is hidden. 

When a Messenger is present in public, they expected to bring signs, such as miracles. 

The Quran shows society is almost never ready for such signs but rather are playful and accuse the doer of sorcery. On the day of judgment, because all 8 type of signs will be brought out, no one will doubt, and they will be asked "Is this sorcery or did you not see?".

However, when society rejects miracles, they can become oppressive towards the believers of such signs and unredeemable.   When a soul accuses the manifesting one of such signs has being a sorcerer, their hatred and evil increases, and oppression usually follows through.  God usually has to destroy such people. The people of Mecca were lucky they were not destroyed because of Messianic Jews of Yathrib who invited Mohammad (s) and believed in him and became Muslims.  Otherwise, they were on the brink of being destroyed too.

Now, Quran shows there is times such signs are not sent, and it's due to what the first ones denying such signs.  Our Imams (a) performed miracles too but anyone reporting them would be heavily punished by the government of their times.

In order not to destroy the nation, and not destroy mankind, God hid the proof to some degree, including, making the leader not in public, lest people deny the miracles and the heavy consequences occur that are warned about in Quran. 

The Mahdi is also supposed to be universal leader, and is sent to whole world, so the consequences of denying such signs is being delayed. Being delayed, because the worse case scenarios warned about in Quran may still take place.  God is trying to avoid the catastrophe warned about, the Haqah (Inevitable event), if people deny such signs, but we seem to be heading towards this direction. Mankind is awaiting the return of Mahdi and Jesus passively and playfully, and so there return may have huge consequences. If believers are in distress and their oppressors oppression intensify against them, then it is upon God to deliver the believers and will sacrifice majority of mankind to save them. It's upon to deliver the believers.

 But we should be thinking of how to make it that it is an easy victory and a blessing when the Mahdi (a) returns.

Of course, signs are show to people with certainty and patience, and so we ought to pray to be guided by hands of Imam Mahdi (a) and be shown all type of signs and miracles, whether spiritually inward light type ascension to the sky type, or the physical miracles. They both reinforce each other.

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

16 hours ago, kadhim said:

Also, I didn’t express any doubt in the ghaybah here. You seem to be misunderstanding something

You have said we are following Sunnis after passing 250 so therefore we will reach their position 250 years later  after them.