Is it permissible to pay/make Dua to Mary and Jesus?

[Guest Pure Tawheed]

6 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

Again and again, as they say 'You are missing the forest for the trees'. 

Whoever you ask, Hazrat Abbas, Imam Ali, Imam Hussein, Prophet Isa (peace be upon all of them) you are not asking them for anything, you are asking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) thru them because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has granted certain individuals the power of Wasilat or Shifa3at (being a vehicle thru which the dua reaches Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) more quickly and with more certainty). 

 

Salam brother,

I hope you are well. 

I hope we can perhaps clarify which position you hold, insha Allah as many people defending this have a wide range of beliefs on the issue.

Before i do go on, weren't you a follower of Sayed Fadalla (رضي الله عنه), at one time one of the most followed Marji' in the Shia world? He regards those who claim we should cry out to Ali, Fatima, Hasan and Hussain as Ghuluw, and states we should rather follow the clear instructions of the Quran, and call out to Allah by his beautiful names, and ask Allah Bihaqqi Muhammed wa ale Muhammed. He states God knows how wretched and sinful we all are, yet demands no matter how lost we are , to call on him, and that he is closer to us than our jugular vein. 

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Position one:

Do you believe that it is permissible to pray/make Dua to Jesus, son of Mary, and say: "O Jesus, grant me a long life, cure my sick, and fulfill for me all my needs, O the one who hears my Dua" 

With the intention that Allah has created Jesus, and then given him the power to grant Dua, so the ultimate power is Allah's, and in effect, it is Allah who is granting the Dua, but you are asking it from Jesus Christ, who will grant it by the power given to him by Allah?

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Position two:

If you don't believe this, but believe saying ' O Jesus i beg you to protect me' but in effect mean O Allah, i beg you to protect me and i am using the name Jesus but really i am asking you? In that sense, why not say, O Allah, i ask you Bihaaqi Jesus, to provide me help, turning towards only you O Allah, and mentioning the names of your pious slaves as a means of Tawassul to you? 

If you do hold this view, that Jesus can not grant your Dua, that you are not literally asking Jesus for help but you are asking Allah help through Jesus, but say Ya Jesus for sake of brevity, then i ask you, why not say Ya Allah with the intention of seeking tawassul through Jesus? Why explicitly make your words the opposite of what it is you actually mean?

___________________________

Now, if it is the second one, you need to let me know.

However, if it is the first one (and i am assuming it is, so if it is not, none of the below applies to you directly ) you are associating partners with Allah, performing an act of worship that is only reserved for Allah, and attributing to the Aimmah / Awliyah of Allah something they never attributed to themselves. 

I am making three claims i can bring and back up with evidence:

1. Dua is an act of Worship that Allah in the noble Quran, and the Prophet and his purified progeny. They explicitly tell us the only one we can plead to is Allah. They never once have told us that we are too sinful to call on Allah directly, and to call out to them. Rather, they tell us how to make our Duas more likely to be accepted:

A. Sincere intentions / refrain from sinning

B. Reciting Salawat on Muhammed and his Ahlulbayt

C. Praising Allah , and glorifying Allah before making Dua, and calling on him by his beautiful names

D. Crying, being tearful, being sincere before making Dua

2. The claim that Hazrat Abbas, Jesus, Zainab etc, have been given the authority by Allah to hear supplications from all corners of the world, and grant sustenance, children, wives, by permission of Allah / power of Allah, can not be found in even a single authentic narration by Muhammed and ale Muhammed. During the time of Muhammed and ale Muhammed, we never find any of their companions asking them for cure, health, wealth and children.

And in every single authentic supplication they gave to their companions when their companions had ill health, indeed, even when the sons of the Imams were poor, they never once told them they were the ones to cry out to in times of need. 

3. The Imams cursed those who beleived Allah created them, and then delegated to them and gave them the power to grant sustenance, health, wealth, and all other matters. Even if one believes they are not independent of Allah, the Imams send their L'anah on such people.

There is no doubt Muhammed and his Ahlulbayt are the ark of salvation for humanity.  I have written articles and debated those weakening Hadith al-Thaqalayn and distorting its message on Salafi websites we all know the name of. There is no doubt we should send the blessings of Allah on Muhammed and his Ahlulbayt, and we may even ask Allah through them.

However, Dua is worship, and it is an act of worship. We exist to worship and serve the creator, and the Quran, Prophets, and pious among the ahle of the Prophets have commanded us to glorify Allah before making Dua, send Salawat on chosen servants of Allah, cry, weep, and beg Allah by calling him by his beautiful names.

On Yawm al Qiyamah, when Muhammed and ale Muhammed are brought before us, and Allah asks us, and this will remain an open challenge here on ShiaChat, where did the Prophet or Imams, even once, in any reliable tradition, ask us to cry out to them in times of need, and make Dua to them, can anyone present, a single reliable explicit statement from the Prophet or any Imam sanctioning such an act?

When Imam Jaffer as Sadiq [as] tells us that he explicitly commanded us to only call and beg to Allah? 

Again you can not beg Jesus and say that is begging Allah. You are begging Jesus, not Allah. If your intention is that Allah has given Jesus the power to hear and grant your Dua and that he is not independent, this applies to you. If your claim is the calling to Jesus is just semantics, what you mean is Ya Allah, i ask you by Jesus, then you need to say, Ya Allah with the intention of seeking tawassul. 

[Ethics]

2 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

If you are really saying that a person can supplicate to anyone or anything,

I will give you the benefit of the doubt, and say that, that is the only thing you saw and thus misunderstood my point. My point is stop being dishonest you are smart enough to understand the difference between literally worshiping and supplicating. Yes, supplicating can be an act of worship and it can also be by definition a call of any kind of help from asking your mom for sustenance, to pleading for your doctor to cure you, to begging, crying upon someone/anyone to help you from drowning. These are all prayers, pleas, calls, invocations to beings or things other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Now why is it these are not shirk by definition?! You know why, but you and every other reformist are being insanely dishonest and conflating and putting words in peoples mouths and completing misrepresenting peoples intentions.

Yall really do not understand what supplication means?  Not every supplication or dua means worship. It is literally in the definition both in arabic and in english for the love of Allah. I pray that if you are all not being truthful may Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide you all...

 

2 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

If you are really saying that a person can supplicate to anyone or anything, and the only question remains whether it 'works' or not, then essentially we are going back to the days of jahiliyyah where the Quraysh of Makkah used to supplicate to their idols with the belief that it brought them closer to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and acknowledging that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the creator and sustainer.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protect us from such things. 

See what I mean? You really do not understand or...? The issue with the idolaters were that they were literally WORSHIPING the idols as in taking them as their Gods, rejecting Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), or partnering them with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Wa Salaam
 

Salafiyyah Interpretation of Ayah 18 of Surah al-Jinn

Another reason put forward by the Salafiyyah such as Muhammad Rashid Rida on non-permissibility of tawassul to the Prophet (saws) after his death is that any wasilah for proximity to God should be a thing which God has determined for mankind such as faith, action and supplication.

It was in the middle ages that tawassul to the person of the Prophets and pious men became widespread and they were considered wasa'il ila Allah (means to Allah) by people who would invoke God by their names and would supplicate to them at their tombs for their needs, when supplication is a form of worship as God says in the Holy Qur'an:

“So call you not anyone with Allah.” (72:18)

“Surely, those whom you call other than Allah are subservient (to Allah) like unto your own selves...” (7:194)

Critique

In answer to this objection it should be said that every supplication is not a form of worship or even the spirit of worship, since the root of du'a' (supplication) is da'wat, a word which along with its derivatives occurs frequently in the Holy Qur'an. For instance,

“let us call (nad'u) our sons (3:61)”

and

“Make you not the addressing (du'a') of the Prophet among you like your addressing one another” (24:63)

As could be discerned, in most of the 'Ayas the word du'a' means to call or address. Accordingly neither every nida' (call) is du'a' nor every du'a' is 'ibadat (worship). In other words du'a' (supplication) becomes 'ibadat when the rules of worship such as servitude and submissiveness to Allah are observed with acknowledgement of the over lordship of the Almighty Creator. What connection does this have with tawassul and tabarruk to the Prophet (saws) and the Infallible Imams (عليه السلام) and requesting them for help and succour?

Thus, the narration al-du'a' huwa al-'ibadah (supplication is among the acts of worship), does not necessarily mean that every supplication is a form of worship.25

Salafiyyah Interpretation of Ayahs 13-14 of Surah al-Fatir

The Salafiyyah also resort to the following Ayah of the Holy Qur'an as part of their attempt to discourage tawassul

And those whom you call upon other than Him, own not (even) a straw. If you call on them they shall hear not your call; and even if they hear they shall answer you not; and on the Day of Judgement they will deny your associating them (with Allah); and none can (ever) inform you as the All-Aware. (35:13- 14)

Critique

This Ayah refers to the polytheists who worship idols instead of the One and Only God and supplicate to these man-made objects in their hour of need. Allah says here that these idols do not own even a straw, so how can they grant anything to those who worship and prostrate before them? No matter how fervently these idols are called upon, they do not listen since they are inanimate objects, and suppose even if they were to listen, they cannot answer since they do not have the tongues.26²⁶

As is crystal clear for any discerning person, it has no connection whatsoever concerning tawassul to the Prophet (saws) and the Infallible Imams (عليه السلام) or saints. First and foremost, it is a gross mistake to place those who seek tawassul in the same category as the polytheists, since idolaters seek their needs from idols and not from the Almighty Creator.

But those who make tawassul beseech Allah for their needs and regard Prophet Muhammad (saws) as a wasilah or means for the acceptance of their supplications, since he is the Messenger of Allah. To quote Rashid Rida himself, those who seek tawassul are like guests who approach the host for some of their needs, and at times request the members of the household or friends of the hosts who have been appointed to serve the guests, since they consider everything to be the favour of the host.27²⁷

Secondly, it is a manifest error to equate with idols the Prophet (saws) who has been sent by Allah as a divine sign and is called Habib-Allah (Friend of God) by all Muslims. Even Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab maintains that Prophet Muhammad (saws) is alive in his grave and his life in the intermediary world (barzakh) is superior to the life of the martyrs, since he hears the voices of those who send blessings upon him.28²⁸

Salafiyyah Interpretation of Ayah 194 of Surah al-A'raf

The fifth reason that the Salafiyyah such as Ibn Taymiyyah, Muhammad Ibn 'Abd al-Wahhab and Muhammad Rashid Rida have cited as non-permissibility of tawassul to the Prophet (saws) after his death, is the following Ayah of the Holy Qur'an

“Surely, those whom you call other than Allah are subservient (to Allah) like unto your own selves...” (7:194)

Critique

All exegetes of the Holy Qur'an have unanimously stated that this Ayah refers to the idol-worshippers who associate man-made objects with God in creation and in administering the affairs of the world. In contrast, tawassul is made by those who never regard the Prophets as partners of Allah in creation and in running world affairs, and neither do they worship the Last Prophet (saws).

Since every day several times they bear testimony that Prophet Muhammad (saws) is the servant and Messenger of Allah (ash-hadu anna Muhammadan 'abduhu wa rasuluh). As the Holy Qur'an says, Prophet Muhammad (saws) has been sent as mercy to the entire creation (21:107) and is a means of acceptance of supplications, so it is natural for us to request him to supplicate and intercede (shafa'at) with Allah for us.

Salafiyyah Interpretation of Ayah 3 of Surah al-Zumar

The Chief Mufti of Saudi Arabia, Shaykh 'Abd al-'Aziz bin Baz, in his exchange of letters with Iran's Ayatullah Muhammad Wa'iz-Zadeh Khurasani, has remarked,The polytheists also testified to the Oneness of Allah but as the Holy Qur'an states, they tried to justify their worshipping of idols by saying:

“we worship them not but (in order) that they make us near to God” (39:3).

This is similar to the actions of those who make tawassul to those in the graves in order to seek proximity to Allah29.

Critique

'Allamah Sayyid Muhammad Husayn Tabataba'i responding to such a reasoning says that according to the books of religions and the testimony of idol-worshippers, hundreds of millions of whom live in India, China and Japan, idolatry is based on the theory that the creation of the universe and even the deities which are worshipped, have as their source the same Almighty God.

But since He is beyond comprehension there is no other choice but to worship some of His closest servants such as angels, genies and saints so that they make intercession (shafa'at) and people may reach the proximity of God through them. In the opinion of the polytheists, angels are like the builder to whom the owner of the house has entrusted the building and hence intercession (shafa'at) is according to His discretion.

But, adds 'Allamah Tabataba'i, in the Holy Qur'an tawassul to the Prophets is in the manner of an intermediary and is not something independent, and for this reason it has not been considered as shirk or polytheism. Similarly, the polytheists have been reproached in the Holy Qur'an not because of seeking intercession (shafa'at) but because of worshipping other than God.30³⁰

Salafiyyah Interpretation of Ayah 10 of Surah Yunus

Shaykh Bin Baz in his answers to Ayatullah Wa'iz-Zadeh has also cited the following Ayah of the Holy Qur'an as another instance of non-permissibility of tawassul, saying that in his opinion Muslims who uphold tawassul to the Prophet (saws) are like idolaters who seek intercession from objects which are of no use:

“And they worship beside Allah which can neither hurt them nor profit them, and they say: these are our intercessors with Allah...” (10:18)

Critique

First, this Ayah has no connection with Muslims since they do not worship any thing or object except Allah.

Secondly, as said earlier, addressing the Prophet is not meant to worship him but to request him for supplication and intercession.

Thirdly, it is a matter of surprise to compare the Prophet to those whom the Holy Qur'an says “can neither hurt them nor profit them,” since the fact cannot be denied that obedience to the Prophet is to the benefit of Muslims and disobedience to him, whether during his lifetime or after his death, is certainly detrimental to them.

Similarly, the supplication and intercession of the Prophet for those who are eligible, whether in worldly life or in the Hereafter, are profitable for the Muslims as unanimously confirmed by the 'ulama'.

Fourthly, it is a grave error to equate the belief of the Muslims that Prophet Muhammad (saws) is the intercessor, with the belief of the polytheists “these (idols) are our intercessors with Allah,” since God has explicitly rejected their claim as lies.

“Those who take guardians besides Him, (say) we worship them not but (in order) that they make us near to Allah; surely Allah will judge between them about what they differ; surely Allah does not guide the one who is a liar and an ingrate.” (39:3)

As is clear from the wordings of the Holy Qur'an the polytheists who make such claims are liars. They are not conscious of God, neither do they worship Him or prostrate to Him nor have they any faith in their Unseen Creator.

“And when it is said to them prostrate you in obeisance to the Rahman (the Beneficent God), they say: Who is Rahman? Shall we prostrate in obeisance unto what you bid us? And it (only) adds to their flight (from the truth).” (25:60)

Non-Permissibility of Tawassul to the Dead

Another claim put forward by the Salafiyyah is that, on the basis of evidences tawassul to Prophet Muhammad (s) during his lifetime is acceptable but after his death there is lack of evidence to support the view that tawassul was ever made to him.31

Critique

The contemporary Sunni scholar Dr. Ramadan Buti of the University of Damascus, rejects this viewpoint of the Wahhabiyyah sect. He says tawassul to Prophet Muhammad (saws) and things pertaining to him is permissible, whether during his lifetime or after his death, since things or items related to him are not necessarily linked to his lifetime such as tabarruk (sacred relics) or tawassul, as is confirmed by Sahih al-Bukhari, Chapter on the hair of the Prophet (saws)

No Muslim would ever attribute to other than the One and Only God the effect of anything related to the person of the Prophet (saws) during his life or after his death. If a person were to hold the opposite view that this effect is independent in itself, he would be considered an infidel.

Accordingly, the tabarruk of the Prophet (saws) and tawassul to him and to things related to him, does not mean attributing the blessed effect to his personal influence independent of God, but is an indication of the fact that as the Last Divine-Sent Messenger he is the 'Best of Creation' and is the 'Mercy of Allah' for the entire creation.

Therefore tawassul to him is a means of gaining proximity to Allah and His infinite Mercy for mankind. It was in this sense that the companions sought tawassul to the Prophet and things related to him. Likewise, it is recommended to seek intercession (shafa'at) through the pious persons such as the Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام) of the Prophet (saws).

Sunni authorities including Shawkani, Ibn Qudamah Hanbali, San'ani and others are unanimous on this issue as was made clear concerning the request for rain. In view of these facts, Dr. Buti calls it a strange confusion by the Wahhabiyyah to make difference between the lifetime of the Prophet and after his death.32³²

To quote Professor Hasan bin 'Ali al-Saqqaf, polytheism (shirk) is polytheism either in this world or in the next, whether or not the person through whom people are seeking tawassul to God, is alive. But, he adds, without the least doubt tawassul to Prophet Muhammad (saws) is supported by the general rules of permissibility, and includes both his lifetime and after his death as well as in the Hereafter.33³³

Tawassul to the Dead is Addressing the Non-Existent

Muhammad bin 'Abd al-Wahhab writes: Tawassul to a person who is alive has no objection, but tawassul to the dead is to address the non-existent and is an absurd, ugly and despised act.

Critique

1. This statement is a clear violation of Allah's words in the Holy Qur'an

“Reckon not those who are slain in the way of Allah, to be dead nay! They are alive and are being sustained by their Lord.” (3:169)

2. It is also in contradiction to the saying of Prophet Muhammad (s) as recorded in Sahih al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim and all other authoritative (Sihah) Sunni works. After the Battle of Badr the Prophet (s) stood near the well of the same name and addressed the dead with ayah 46 of Surah al-A'raf. When some of his companions objected that how could the dead hear him, the Prophet (s) replied: “You are not more hearing than them.”34

3. It is in opposition to the statements of Islamic intellectuals such as al-Ghazzali who writes in Ihya' 'Ulum al-Din: “Some people think death as extinction and state of non-existent, and those who hold such beliefs have no faith and actually mean to deny Allah and the Hereafter.”

Hafiz al-Nawawi in al-Majmu' fi Sharh al-Muhadhdhab which says that while standing beside the tombs of Prophets, especially the shrine of Prophet Muhammad (saws), it is recommended to request them to supplicate to God for our needs, since they are alive and as the Holy Qur'an says:

“are being sustained by their Lord.” (3:169)35

Shaykh Khalil Ahmad Saharanpuri who states his fatwa and that of 75 'ulama' of different Islamic lands as follows: In our view, Prophet Muhammad (s) is alive in his holy tomb and his life is similar to worldly life but without its duties.

'Allamah Jalal al-Din Suyuti writes in his book Anba' al-Azkiya' bi-Hayat al-Anbiya' on the authority of Shaykh Taqi al-Din Subki that the proof of the life of Prophets and martyrs in their graves is the prayer offered by Prophet Moses in his own tomb as mentioned in a hadith. In this regard Shaykh Shams al-Islam Muhammad Qasim has written a booklet titled Ab-i Hayat 36.

As part of their misinformation campaign against tawassul, the Salafiyyah attempt to exploit certain Ayahs of the Holy Qur'an which refer to the polytheists who worship idols instead of the One and Only God and who seek their wants from these lifeless man-made objects. However, it is clear that equating those who seek Tawassul to the Prophet (saws) with the polytheists and infidels is an erroneous idea, since Tawassul-seekers, unlike the idolators, address the Almighty Creator and seek their needs from Him by making the Prophet (saws) a wasilah for acceptance of prayer.

On the other hand, the idols have no connection with God and are nothing more than inanimate objects made by man, while Prophet Muhammad (saws) is the manifest sign of Allah, the Messenger of Allah and Mercy to the creation. Allah has also given him power, both in this world and in the next, to supplicate and intercede for his true followers. The Wahhabi contention of the period of Barzakh of the Prophet (saws) lacks any rational explanation and is against the view of the 'ulama' of all other sects of the Ahl al-Sunnah.

7. Those who wish to make the Prophet (saws) the intercessor without being obedient to the Holy Qur'an and the Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام) have been likened by Shi'ah 'ulama' such as 'Allamah Tabataba'i, to a wishful person who wants to become the sage of the age without learning or studying anything.

[Guest Pure Tawheed]

13 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

To the naked eye looks, sounds and 'feels' very Catholic 

May Allah lengthen the likes of Sayed Fadallah [ra] who forbade this: https://english.bayynat.org.lb/FAQ/faq_yaali.htm

This is why you find a lot of users hitting a wall here. They call out to Hazrat Abbas and Lady Zainab, and know they are probably by the same logic, able to call out to Jesus and Mary, who are technically higher in rank, but many realise it will be identical to what the Catholics do for Mary. That's why you've found people doing anything and everything from directly answering.

Their hearts know.

Even the protestants forbid making Dua/praying to Mary, despite catholics using the same arguments "this is Intercession".

I won't be held accountable now, for not warning against this on the day of judgement. Allah punishes those who do and the silent ones who don't but remain silent together when he punishes nations in certain contexts. 

I dissociate myself from the practice of praying to/making Dua to anyone but the creator of the universe, and i do so along with sending Salawat on Muhammed and ale Muhammed, and i beg Allah and only Allah to grant me my Dua for their sake, and by their intercession , especially their intercession on the day of judgement.

However, Dua belongs only to Allah, it is an act of worship and i am free from associating anyone with him in worship.

O Allah, O the one closer to us than our own jugular veins, who knew our sinful states before you created us, you command us to call on you and never lose hope in you, making losing hope in your mercy one of the major sins. I beg you in the way you asked me to, and in the exact way your pious slaves, Muhammed and ale Muhammed asked me to, never finding a shred of evidence they asked us to devote our prayers/duas to them instead of calling on you directly. Send Salawat on Muhammed and ale Muhammed, and grant us their intercession, for they never called us to pray to them, but only directed us to you. 

 

[Guest Pure Tawheed]

With the utmost respect, and by no means do i intend to offend, can there be some sort of rethinking of posting articles worth 3-4 pages?

If you want to share an artice, post the link.

However, this is a discussion forum, you should post the link and then explain directly how it relates to the post of the person you are replying to.

This allows a two way discussion, and promotes an open mind, where each party has to think and be open minded and sincere (inshaAllah) about the intentions and arguments of the other.

By mass copy pastes destroy discussions.

[Cool]

25 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Firstly, Allah (s) directed all Muslims to face Mecca / Kaa'ba / Black Stone etc....this can be easily ascertained directly from the Quran itself...no need for my interpretation or your opinion or mental gymnastics etc..

lol, thanks for informing me that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded you to turn your face towards Ka'ba while offering the prayers. I was unaware of this command . 

By the way, I am not talking about on whose command you turn your face towards a building built of stones. I am questioning your basic aqeedah. You believe Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is limitless, infinite and you also believe that Ka'ba is the house of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and you also believe that houses are used for living/staying, so mind telling me how your infinite/limitless God "need" a house for Himself while He is limitless/infinite/needless? 

And mind telling me any verse of Quran which say "Ka'ba" is the "house of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)"? 

I am only pushing you towards deducting the hikmah, burden your intellect instead of becoming angry.

41 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Secondly, Muhammad (s) and Ali (a) cleansed Qibla of all idols and images after conquest of Mecca so Kaa'ba was idol-free...

Hmmm, So your Lord was unable to keep "his house" clean from the idols? He need human beings who go & clean his house? Also he cannot even built His house and need human beings for building it? 

When He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is able to send "ababil' (birds) for protecting His house, why He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not able to protect it from idols? He (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), when intends anything say "Be"(kun) to it and it is (fayakoon), so why you see birds protecting Ka'ba, Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ali (عليه السلام) cleaning the Ka'ba from idols? 

1 hour ago, Eddie Mecca said:

when you call upon Faḍl ibn al ʿAbbās (r) and Zaynab (r) etc. do you guys do it in front of one of those posters or portraits depicting their images?

Do you need posters/buildings/any other symbols for assurance that you are worshipping a LIVING GOD? Do you need a poster/picture or any other thing/symbol for believing that the martyrs are alive? 

Perhaps you have a contamination in your understanding as you need a house built of stones to worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) where you turn your face during salah. 

So I am not going to answer you question because of two reasons:

1. It is based on assumption. 

2. It is based on ignorance. 

Forget about Syeda Zainab and Abbas عليهم السلام، take the names of Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Ali (عليه السلام) directly because your logic & line of reasoning equally applies to them as well. 

Unless you learn the hikmah why do you turn your face towards a building built of stones and worship your that Lord which is everywhere ولله المشرق والمغرب، unless you learn the hikamh and reality of salah, I am not going to answer your this question.  

 

[Abu Hadi]

7 hours ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

Just like any belief that has no basis in the Quran or teachings of ale Muhammed, you get a different answer from anyone you ask.

From this thread alone:

1. Some admit many Shia speakers/scholars/lay man go to Ziyarah, or even in their own homes, and directly ask Hazrat Abbas , Imam Hussain to grant them children, to grant them sustenance, to grant them health, to grant them wealth. It's widespread, i've even posted a video of Mahdi Moderrasi claiming you can ask Hazrat Abbas to grant you a wife, wealth, children etc. So they will reluctantly admit Jesus was Mas'um, and Ali Akbar, Hazrat Abbas, Lady Zainab, Ruqayah etc were not, and that if they can Hazrat Abbas for these things, they can ask Jesus / and Mary too.  

2. Some will realise the seriously bad optics of saying you can call on Jesus and Mary for health, wealth, children, and forgiveness. They will then try to argue a non-Masum like Hazrat Abbas is equal or superior to Isa b. Maryam, a M'asum Ululazam Prophet so will try to shut the questioner down using their own Dhann.  Others will claim Jesus is a thing of the past, now we focus on the descendents of Muhamed. But isn't Jesus alive in one way or the other no matter the differing opinions of how? Isn't he Ma'sum? Isn't the same logic you apply to call on Hazrat Abbas also applicable to him?

3. Some, will deny anyone but Muhammed / the 12 imams are called on for their Duas and needs

4. Some will claim we should only ask Imam Mahdi, the culmination of everything

5. Some will claim no, we should ask the most superior of the Ma'sumeen which is Muhammed [saw], despite the fact so many Shias call on / ask Ali ,Hasan, Hussain etc, for health, wealth, sustenance

6. Some will say asking Hazrat Abbas to grant your Duas is like asking Allah to, because Allah has given him the power, but Jesus was the past, if we ask him, people will think we are not giving love and attention to the Prophet and his family.  

 

There is no logic, nor sense to any of it. But rather, the Fitrah recognises when something is wrong. When Protestants themselves say you can not call on Mary or those they do not consider God,  when the Jehovah witness themselves say you can not call on Jesus, it splinters opinion due to the optics , and due to the fitrah being in a state of turmoil at such a question, let alone such a belief having no basis in the Quran or the teachings of ale Muhammed asws. 

You hear something and you interpret it a certain way. That may or may not be what the speaker or writer meant by it. 

If you really want to know, why don't you email Sayyid Modarrasi regarding your interpretation of what he said and see what his response is. If you really want to know, that is what you would do. He would probably respond. 

What you are repeating is a common trope that is used by the Salafis in order to slander our ulema. So you should be careful of that. 

I have sat in on probably hundreds of lectures on Tauhid from Shia ulema. I have never heard one of them say, 'I am asking Imam Hussein or Hazrat Abbas(peace be upon them) directly, not thru their wasilat which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has granted them'. Some person at some point in history may have done this, but I have never heard of it. I have been in the Shia community for 30 years, btw. So your accusation has no basis, again from the knowledge that I have. 

I was also in the Christian community for 20 years before I reverted to Islam, and I was raised in the Christian Church as many here already know. The idea, in Christianity of 'praying to Mary' is something that is not common from what I have seen. Obviously, because of the idea of the Trinity which most Christians accept, the idea of praying to Jesus is less clear, regarding whether you are praying directly to Jesus or God (the Father) or both. Because the theology of Christianity is confusing (because of the issue of Trinity), it is much less clear of an issue vs. the issue of praying or asking other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly. Again, generally from what I experienced, praying to Mary directly is not something that is commonly seen. 

Edited May 2 by Abu Hadi

[Guest pure tawheed]

1 minute ago, Abu Hadi said:

.

Salam brother,

I specifically took some time to reply to your post, because you are one of the few users who does not just copy and paste, but sits down and takes time to formulate their replies. The post has not yet been approved, incase you missed it. 

[Abu_Zahra]

6 hours ago, Ethics said:

See what I mean? You really do not understand or...? The issue with the idolaters were that they were literally WORSHIPING the idols as in taking them as their Gods, rejecting Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), or partnering them with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

Some of them yes. Others simply considered them to be intercessors to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), therefore not equal to him and therefore not actually rejecting Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

[Guest Pure Tawheed]

30 minutes ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Some of them yes. Others simply considered them to be intercessors to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), therefore not equal to him and therefore not actually rejecting Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

This is something i think can't be emphasized enough, many of those who worshipped Idols believed Allah was the ultimate creator.

On an aside, the only way to associate partners to Allah is not merely outright calling them Gods beside him. Many cursed groups beleived there were beings created by Allah, and then given powers that only belong to Allah.

The mufawwidah believed Allah created the universe, and then delegated control over all of the atoms of the universe to the Imams, and left for them matters such as delegating sustenance, such their power only came from Allah [(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)]. Yet, the Imams were so enraged by such accusations, they performed L'anah on those who had this belief. 

The claim the Imams knew all of the past and all of the future is a lie. Imam Jaffer as Sadiq [as] states he didn't even know where the next meal would from from or when his Dua would be answered. Yet you have people claiming the Imams grant us Risq, health, wealth, and children by the permission of Allah. This is a lie on Allah. Those who cry out to Hazrat Abbas to fulfill their needs, and grant them sustenance should know Hazrat Abbas has no power to do so, only Allah is the one who we should call onto for sustenance, only he can decide whether to grant it and only he can grant it. Those who claim others can grant us sustenance, and divide the sustenance, and should be called on directly to grant sustenance are cursed by the Aimmah. 

Brother Islamic Salvation wrote a beautiful article here:  https://shiiticstudies.com/2020/10/06/the-worldview-of-the-ghulat-pt-i/#f16

"“Two companions enter upon Imam al-Sadiq and inform him that: Mufadhal b. Umar says that you are the ones who allot the Rizq of the slaves.

The Imam replied: By Allah – None allots our Rizq except Allah. I was in need of food for my family once, so my heart became constrained, and I became ponderous over what I was going to do, until their (i.e. my family members’) strength drained (i.e. due to hunger), only then did my soul get pleased (i.e. my Dua for Rizq was answered).

May Allah curse him and disassociate from him. They both said to him: Do you curse him and disassociate from him? He said: Yes, so you two also curse him and disassociate from him, may Allah and his messenger disassociate from him[15]

So if the Imam himself has to plead to Allah for his Rizq then how can he be the one who distributes Rizq?”

[Rijal al Kashi]

[Ethics]

8 hours ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

With the utmost respect, and by no means do i intend to offend, can there be some sort of rethinking of posting articles worth 3-4 pages?

Because your side likes to take verses of the quran out of context and to mistranslate it is vital to post clear evidence easily showing how incorrect you are. My posts are very vital to the discussion at hand, since you all like dodging any questions or counter points I post. I want to make it very clear not to you all since I am done responding to any of you really. You have shown me since last few weeks, there is no purpose in arguing or discussing with disingenuous people who take out of context, keeping putting words in mouths, incorrectly time and time again defining peoples believes, ignoring questions, repeating yourselves etc etc

 I just post for the 3rd party readers online or people that are here. And I was responding to Brother Abu Zahra

Edited May 2 by Ethics

[Eddie Mecca]

On 5/1/2023 at 7:36 AM, Cool said:

We on the other-hand, have imprisoned our selves in the love of duniya and its adornments

If the situation is this hopeless and dire then perhaps we should abandon salah (nay all religion) altogether...what the heck type(s) of major sins are we committing in our private lives that we can't show our faces to God on a daily basis??…are we performing mass genocides yearly? Zina 365 days a year? If we've corrupted our souls to the point of a Hitler, or a Jeffrey Dahmer, Iceberg Slim, Charles Manson etc. then all the intersession in the world won't help my man...Prophet Muhammad (s) was asked by some companions "Will you intercede for us on the Day of Judgement O Messenger of Allah?" He (s) said "Help me"...by "help me" (i.e. help me to help you) he meant the Ummah of Muhammad should struggle and strive hard with righteous deeds so he is able to hold his head high (in a proud manner) and offer an intervention on Yawm al-qiyāmah...in other words, don't be like Bani Israel

On 4/30/2023 at 6:28 AM, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

Is it permissible to pray to Mary and Jesus

We (Muslims) can seek intercession through anyone as long as we seek a direct means first

On 4/30/2023 at 10:54 AM, Cool said:

Are you Christian? 

What is this ʿaṣabiyyah? Look at the language being used..."our Imam", "our Prophet", "their Prophet", "Are you Christian?"...Wallahi, I love all the Prophets (s) and awliyah (a) regardless of their ethnicity or their national identity or the time-period in which they lived or their race or the language which they spoke etc...all prophets are our prophets, all imams are our imams, all saints are our saints etc.

Edited May 2 by Eddie Mecca

[Ethics]

This whole argument is wahabi level idiotic. If asking for help is considered worship or shirk, why is the whole human existence revolve around seeking the needs, help, requests, pleas, calls, invocations of other humans and other beings and inanimate objects such as cars to live your life? Why are you not being consistent with this whole stupid argument. Without garbage disposals you would be living in garbage. You are dependent on it to live a clean and healthy life. Are you worshiping it? It is food that gives you sustenance, are you worshiping it since it answers your needs and gives you sustenance to keep living? like come on. You try and bring such an argument to an atheist, they will laugh at your face due to how illogical and contradictory your beliefs are.

Edited May 2 by Ethics

[Eddie Mecca]

1 hour ago, Ethics said:

If asking for help is considered worship or shirk

Everyone participating in this debate/discussion is pro-tawassul...you keep suggesting there's a pro-tawassul camp and an anti-tawassul camp...this is a strawman of the highest order...there's only one camp...but we're debating very technical points...there's a difference of opinion regarding particular word usage, or the best word usage when an Imam, prophet, saint etc. is deceased or dead...when they're alive we agree with you...no problem...ask as much as you want ("O Abbas", "O Zaynab" etc.)...there's one camp here that says they have evidence that the Imams (a) prayed something like this "O Allah I beseech you alone...I ask you bi 'ism Muhammad etc"...we have another group that says "I'm free to do or say whatever I want...you can't control me" etc....let me ask you a question...hypothetical scenario...If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says "go West" and Muhammad (s) "go East"...who would you listen to??...of course we would listen to Allah and head west...If Muhammad (s) said "Black" and Imam Ali (a) said "White"...of course we would say "Black" and follow and mimic Muhammad's word...If Imam Ali said "Cold" and Salman (r) or Ammar (r) said "Hot"...we would say "Cold" and follow Imam Ali (a)...if Salman said "Dry" and Eddie Mecca says "Wet"...I would say "Eddie Mecca? Who is Eddie Mecca and how did he even enter into this discussion?"..."Eddie Mecca isn't qualified to say anything"...you (on the other hand) would say "Eddie Mecca's opinion is equal to Salman's opinion or Imam Ali's opinion or Prophet Muhammad's opinion"...see bro. there's a proper hierarchy and descending order here ..of course we know Muhammad (s) would never contradict Allah's word and Imam Ali would never go against the Prophet's word etc. etc. I'm trying to illustrate a point.

Edited May 3 by Eddie Mecca

[Cool]

6 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

What is this ʿaṣabiyyah? Look at the language being used..."our Imam", "our Prophet", "their Prophet", "Are you Christian?

I think it is better to quit engaging in further discussions if you are losing your temper. Your دریدہ دہنی would not effect me at all, neither it will change the words I have written and then further clarified. Instead of pondering on the questions raised by me, instead of getting to the wisdom and understanding why you do something, you came up with this tone. It is sad indeed and is become a barrier among us to engage further in discussion.

So stay blessed

Wassalam!!

[AbdusSibtayn]

Don't want to get embroiled in this mess, but can't help pointing this out either. To the esteemed brethren who are complaining of insults/hurtful words being flung- you all were perfectly okay when another thread was made insinuating mass- takfir millions of the faithful, accusing them of ridda and being literal apostates. No one batted even an eyelid and you people spoke in unison with the OP instead of rebuking him for coming up with that hideous title.

You profess to 'respectfully disagree' yet chuckle with glee when threads such as this are made with such edgy 'gotcha' one-liners as headings to bait the other side. People , myself included, have had warnings issued for far ,far less.  All of this is acceptable behavior for you? Accusations of ridda, not even thinly veiled, and edgy baiting is reasoned discourse, but the other side taking offense and responding in kind/with aggression is wrong? 

Day in and day out they are being blasted and bombarded witness accusations of violating tawheed, innovating and instituting bid'ah, taking from the practices of the ghulat and mufawwidah, and even of open shirk and apostasy. What do you expect in return? 

At this point of my SC presence I really don't care if I get banned for speaking my mind, but the whole thing reeks of pungent nifaq and doesn't seem very ethically consistent to me. A mu'min renders onto another what he likes for himself. And as ye give, so shall ye receive. 

Not joining the slugfest. Won't be responding here. Feel free to troll. Not going to engage. 

Wassalam. 

Edited May 3 by AbdusSibtayn

[AbdusSibtayn]

1 hour ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Don't want to get embroiled in this mess, but can't help pointing this out either. To the esteemed brethren who are complaining of insults/hurtful words being flung- you all were perfectly okay when another thread was made insinuating mass- takfir millions of the faithful, accusing them of ridda and being literal apostates. No one batted even an eyelid and you people spoke in unison with the OP instead of rebuking him for coming up with that hideous title.

You profess to 'respectfully disagree' yet chuckle with glee when threads such as this are made with such edgy 'gotcha' one-liners as headings to bait the other side. People , myself included, have had warnings issued for far ,far less.  All of this is acceptable behavior for you? Accusations of ridda, not even thinly veiled, and edgy baiting is reasoned discourse, but the other side taking offense and responding in kind/with aggression is wrong? 

Day in and day out they are being blasted and bombarded witness accusations of violating tawheed, innovating and instituting bid'ah, taking from the practices of the ghulat and mufawwidah, and even of open shirk and apostasy. What do you expect in return? 

At this point of my SC presence I really don't care if I get banned for speaking my mind, but the whole thing reeks of pungent nifaq and doesn't seem very ethically consistent to me. A mu'min renders onto another what he likes for himself. And as ye give, so shall ye receive. 

Not joining the slugfest. Won't be responding here. Feel free to troll. Not going to engage. 

Wassalam. 

With accusations*

[Abu_Zahra]

1 hour ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

Don't want to get embroiled in this mess, but can't help pointing this out either. To the esteemed brethren who are complaining of insults/hurtful words being flung- you all were perfectly okay when another thread was made insinuating mass- takfir millions of the faithful, accusing them of ridda and being literal apostates. No one batted even an eyelid and you people spoke in unison with the OP instead of rebuking him for coming up with that hideous title.

This is factually incorrect. I understand that it was a long thread so you couldn't read every single post, but nearly all if not all participants in the thread clearly disagreed with the term 'apostasy' and the author also acknowledged that it was a mistake and not what he actually had intended. 

[Haydar Husayn]

On 5/2/2023 at 11:32 AM, Abu Hadi said:

What you are repeating is a common trope that is used by the Salafis in order to slander our ulema. So you should be careful of that. 

I have sat in on probably hundreds of lectures on Tauhid from Shia ulema. I have never heard one of them say, 'I am asking Imam Hussein or Hazrat Abbas(peace be upon them) directly, not thru their wasilat which Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has granted them'. Some person at some point in history may have done this, but I have never heard of it. I have been in the Shia community for 30 years, btw. So your accusation has no basis, again from the knowledge that I have. 

I’m surprised by this. Why do you think the belief in wilaya takwiniya is so important to some scholars if it’s not because they believe that the Imams (a) have the ability to intervene directly in human affairs (with Allah’s permission of course)? There is no need for such powers if all you are going to do is supplicate to Allah on someone else’s behalf.

And rationally, what is the problem to ask someone who you believe Allah has given power over creation to do something for you using those powers? After all, whether that person supplicates on your behalf or performs a miracle on your behalf, they are in both cases simply performing an action on your behalf that is within their power.

 

Quote

Wilayah Takwiniyyah: that is creational authority like direct intervention and control over things and affairs in the creation. The human power to walk, to climb, to carry heavy loads, etc. are all examples of this authority.

[…]
 

Some scholars have claimed that Allah has given total or partial authority to the Prophet and Imams, peace be upon them, for the administration of the world and that they have control over it, at least partially, with His permission. They base their opinion relying on certain hadith and some intellectual concepts. This is the maximum extent of the concept of wilayah takwiniyya in relation to the Prophet and Imams. 

Other scholars however reject such view and consider it against the Qur'an, implicitly or explicitly, based on conjectures and weak ahadith.

https://www.al-islam.org/ask/can-you-explain-the-concepts-of-wilayat-e-takvini-and-wilayat-e-tashrihi-with-examples-how-are-they-supported-by-the-quran-and-hadith
 

 

On 5/2/2023 at 11:32 AM, Abu Hadi said:

I was also in the Christian community for 20 years before I reverted to Islam, and I was raised in the Christian Church as many here already know. The idea, in Christianity of 'praying to Mary' is something that is not common from what I have seen.

It’s common among Catholics, but they also deny it’s worship by using similar mental gymnastics to the ones seen in this thread. To their credit, at least they don’t try to deny that it is prayer, they just say they aren’t praying to her as if she is a deity.

Quote

In a similar way to Jesus being the one true mediator between God and humanity, Mary intercedes on the behalf of us to Jesus. One objection to this could be that since Jesus is the one true mediator for us, we don’t need the intercession of Mary, as we only need Jesus and can go directly to him when we pray.

While it is true that we can go directly to Jesus during prayer, intercessory prayer through Mary (as well as other saints such as St Peter or St Faustina) still makes sense as in the same way that we ask Christian friends and family on earth to pray for us (something which in strongly encouraged in scripture e.g. 1 Timothy 2:1-4), we can ask our Christian family in heaven (Mary and the saints) to pray for us.
 

Why pray to Mary in particular?

So why do Catholics pray to Mary in particular? For one thing, it’s the quickest way to Jesus. When you think about it, Mary was probably one of the people Jesus was closest to on earth during his life (other than God) as seen at the wedding of Cana (John 2: 1-12), as it was due to her promoting that Jesus performed his first miracle of turning water into wine.

Therefore, it makes sense to pray to Mary as she knew Jesus best in his life, and will lead us to him.

https://dowym.com/voices/catholics-pray-mary/
 

As you can see, the arguments are similar.

[Haydar Husayn]

By the way, here is an example of a scholar saying what some are claiming no Shia scholar says:

 

[Haydar Husayn]

On 5/2/2023 at 6:00 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam respectfully  it seems you totally misunderstood my point which all of us here agree that we must suplicate toward Allah alone for fullfilling our needs which personalities likewise Imam Musa bin Ja'far ((عليه السلام).) , Hazrat Abbas , Umulbaneen, Ali Akhbar, Ali ashghar... are not independant from Allah which Allah has appointed them as Bab-ul-Hawaij (The Door to Fulfilling Peoples Needs) which Allah accepts our drirect Dua/supplication to him through them  as fastests & guaranteed way toward Allah

What is the evidence for this? In the thread of mine that you quoted in your post, I asked for any hadiths on this title, and as far as I can remember none were produced. Even the answer you quoted simply says that these titles are conferred on them by their 'admirers'. You can't just go around saying things about Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) without having any evidence to support it.

[Abu_Zahra]

@Haydar Husayn welcome back!

[Cool]

11 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

By the way, here is an example of a scholar saying what some are claiming no Shia scholar says:

Salam!!

By the way, what the scholar was saying?

Don't give me the translation they have done in that video. And don't even pick something within the statement to give it the meaning of what these nawasibs want to say. 

I am not surprised to see you are throwing on us videos made by these nawasibs.

11 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

There is no need for such powers if all you are going to do is supplicate to Allah on someone else’s behalf.

  Very poor reasoning indeed. 

وصل عليهم إن صلاتك سكن لهم

(and pray for them; surely your prayer is a relief to them)

[Haydar Husayn]

15 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

@Haydar Husayn welcome back!

Thanks! Don’t know how much I’ll be around, but I never could resist this topic!

[Haydar Husayn]

11 hours ago, Cool said:

Salam!!

Wa alaikum as-salaam!

11 hours ago, Cool said:

By the way, what the scholar was saying?

Don't give me the translation they have done in that video. And don't even pick something within the statement to give it the meaning of what these nawasibs want to say. 

I am not surprised to see you are throwing on us videos made by these nawasibs.

  Very poor reasoning indeed. 

وصل عليهم إن صلاتك سكن لهم

(and pray for them; surely your prayer is a relief to them)

Just to clarify, is your position that no Shia scholar thinks that the Imams have been given power over creation by Allah? And that all the Imams do when you call on them is to supplicate to Allah, and that they aren’t able to help you directly with their God-given powers?

Edited May 9 by Haydar Husayn

[Guest Pure Tawheed]

1 hour ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Thanks! Don’t know how much I’ll be around, but I never could resist this topic!

Salam brother,

Great to have you back. 

Have you noticed, many who advocate even asking Hazrat Ali Akhbar, Zainab, Sakina,  for health, wealth and children have shyed away from making any such statements about an Ulul Azam Prophet like Jesus, or his mother Mary?

 

[Haydar Husayn]

13 minutes ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

Salam brother,

Great to have you back. 
 

Wa alaikum as-salaam. Thank you!

13 minutes ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

Have you noticed, many who advocate even asking Hazrat Ali Akhbar, Zainab, Sakina,  for health, wealth and children have shyed away from making any such statements about an Ulul Azam Prophet like Jesus, or his mother Mary?

 

Yeah, but that’s not a big surprise. Slightly more surprising (but not completely) is people asking for evidence that Ulul-azam prophets have a higher status than certain non-masoomeen.

[Cool]

4 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Just to clarify, is your position that no Shia scholar thinks that the Imams have been given power over creation by Allah?

Salam Brother, 

I just wanted to know what you understood from the words of scholar mentioned in that video:

نحن عندما ندخل، عندما ندعوا، عندما نخلق حاجاتنا 

I believe in wilayat e takwiniyyah of Imams عليهم السلام. 

4 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

And that all the Imams do when you call on them is to supplicate to Allah, and that they aren’t able to help you directly with their God-given powers?

It is not we who decide & dictate how the Imam will act upon any request. The one's who are deputed to act according to mashi'ah, knows well how to act & when to act. (و ما تشأؤؤن الا ان يشاء الله). 

 

3 hours ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

many who advocate even asking Hazrat Ali Akhbar, Zainab, Sakina,  for health, wealth and children have shyed away from making any such statements about an Ulul Azam Prophet like Jesus, or his mother Mary?

People infact did asked for health & sustenance from Jesus. It is in Quran chapter 5

إِذْ قَالَ الْحَوَارِيُّونَ يَا عِيسَى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ هَلْ يَسْتَطِيعُ رَبُّكَ أَنْ يُنَزِّلَ عَلَيْنَا مَائِدَةً مِنَ السَّمَاءِ ۖ قَالَ اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ إِنْ كُنْتُمْ مُؤْمِنِينَ {112}

[Shakir 5:112] When the disciples said: O Isa son of Marium! will your Lord consent to send down to us food from heaven? He said: Be careful of (your duty to) Allah if you are believers.

They asked it when they ran out of food. Asking help (in itself) from someone (you consider as other than Allah) doesn't make you mushrik. 

In the above case, the Hawariyyoon already believed as the verse 111 mentions and yet they came to Jesus (عليه السلام) with their request. 

The case of brothers of Prophet Yusuf (عليه السلام) is also there in Quran:

قَالُوا يَا أَبَانَا اسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا خَاطِئِينَ {97}

[Shakir 12:97] They said: O our father! ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners.

If you are claiming that "istighatha" is shirk, bring in your evidences, naqli as well as aqli. Repeating the statements of nawsib's wouldn't "help" you. 

[Guest Pure Tawheed]

6 hours ago, Haydar Husayn said:

Wa alaikum as-salaam. Thank you!

Yeah, but that’s not a big surprise. Slightly more surprising (but not completely) is people asking for evidence that Ulul-azam prophets have a higher status than certain non-masoomeen.

Yes, i had assumed people would have accepted that, but it really does appear rational thought and evidence are no longer criteria. 

Wen people are willing to take weak traditions from infamous ghulat, it is clear many form a belief and then twist the evidence, instead of critically examining the evidence, and then forming their belief.

 

 

 

[Muslim2010]

6 hours ago, Cool said:

If you are claiming that "istighatha" is shirk, bring in your evidences, naqli as well as aqli. Repeating the statements of nawsib's wouldn't "help" you. 

OP has been found speechless by only repeating such claims during this thread on many instances like the following post is quoted for example:

wasalam

Edited May 10 by Muslim2010