Are modern day shias turning apostates??

[Abu_Zahra]

7 hours ago, Cool said:

Salam!

I think we are not talking about part (جزو) of adhan. There is no debate going on, on the fact that the third testimony is not a "part" of adhan. We are discussing its saying with the intention of istehbaab. 

And I can quote multiple authentic narrations in support of its istehbaab. 

Isn't it interesting that people in the times of Sheikh Sadooq used to say it. Respected Sheikh has identified them as "Mufawwidah" and here we get back to my point again, we are believing on the opinion of a scholar who could be wrong.

Wa alaikum as salam brother 

Yes I think your position on this is clear and it is also the conventional position today, ie that it isn't part of the adhan but can be recited as a 'supplement'

Regarding your comment about its recitation during the time of as Saduq, I am not looking at the opinion of Saduq alone, rather the fact that for 900 years this was not a mainstream Shi'i practice. We don't find any scholars who supported or condoned this, rather we have multiple scholars who condemned it and of course and more importantly no evidence that any of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) practiced this. 

In any case it is a discussion that has occured several times on this forum so I don't think we need to repeat it if there's nothing new to add. 

[Cool]

49 minutes ago, Abu_Zahra said:

We don't find any scholars who supported or condoned this, rather we have multiple scholars who condemned it

First of all, as I have quoted the words of Allamah Majlisi:

 لا يبعد كون الشهادة بالولاية من الأجزاء المستحبّة في الأذان

(It is not far-fetched that the testimony of guardianship is one of the desirable parts of the call to prayer)

Then we have the statements of other scholars as well:

وقال صاحب الجواهر : لا بأس بذكر الشهادة بالولاية ، لا على سبيل الجزئيّة ، عملاً بالخبر المزبور

I can quote more supporting statements of scholars. 

Next is the fact that we have no idea of the actual number of words in adhan & iqamah. Here are couple of contradicting reports mentioned by classical scholars and Sheikh Sadooq was among them:

4138 / 7 - الصدوق في الهداية، قال: قال الصادق (عليه السلام):
(الأذان و الإقامة مثنى (1) مثنى، وهما اثنان وأربعون حرفا، الأذان عشرون حرفا، والإقامة اثنان وعشرون حرفا).

قلت: قال الشيخ في النهاية (2)، بعد ذكر مختاره في فصولهما ونقل بعض ما ورد بخلافه قال: ومن روى اثنين وأربعين فصلا، فإنه يجعل في آخر الأذان التكبير أربع مرات، وفي أول الإقامة أربع مرات، وفي آخرها أيضا مثل ذلك أربع مرات، ويقول: لا إله إلا الله مرتين في آخر الإقامة، فإن عمل عامل على إحدى هذه الروايات، لم يكن مأثوما

http://shiaonlinelibrary.com/الكتب/1240_مستدرك-الوسائل-الميرزا-النوري-ج-٤/الصفحة_43#top

So with these sort of comments and reports, it becomes a fact that what we have in adhan/iqamah are the sequence & words approved by our scholars. So again, what we are accepting are what our scholars have selected and deemed correct. 

Here we came back to the point I raised earlier:

22 hours ago, Cool said:

We have to depend on our scholars for figuring out what is the correct and acceptable way of offering the salah.

Anyway, I think with this discussions it should be cleared to everyone that we are not the ones who have abandoned the sunnah of Imams عليهم السلام، rather we are the ones who are carefully examine every report and adopt the best practice.

And one more thing is that the third testimony itself cannot be considered as bid'ah rather it is a condition of faith even at the time of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). So with all these reports of its istehbaab and its reality, no one is entitled to say it a bid'ah if it is said with the intention of istehbaab in adhan & iqamah.

I am now finished with this topic. 

Wassalam!

[Abu_Zahra]

5 hours ago, Cool said:

First of all, as I have quoted the words of Allamah Majlisi:

 لا يبعد كون الشهادة بالولاية من الأجزاء المستحبّة في الأذان

(It is not far-fetched that the testimony of guardianship is one of the desirable parts of the call to prayer)

Then we have the statements of other scholars as well:

Like I mentioned, for 900 years this practice was not condoned by any scholar. In any case it was not practiced by any Imam. Essentially it ONLY gained prominence and acceptance under the Safawids who enforced it and since then we have seen a more lenient stance on it. 

 

[Cool]

31 minutes ago, Abu_Zahra said:

In any case it was not practiced by any Imam. 

Isn't it surprising that after 328 AH shias figured out the exact wordings of Adhan & Iqamah lol. And you are talking that it is not practiced by any Imam this essentially means what you know? We have ahadith, some even sahih infact, where they (عليه السلام) are commanding us to say the third testimony but they (عليه السلام) themselves were not saying it. No one can expect this from Imams. 

37 minutes ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Essentially it ONLY gained prominence and acceptance under the Safawids who enforced it

At least we have seen that saying of it was practiced even before 300AH, there are even reports that the third third testimony was in practice in the times of Ummiyad caliphs when they started cursing Ali (عليه السلام) from the mosques. 

Sheikh Sadooq's statement itself is an evidence against the claim that third testimony gained prominence under the Safawids. And what is interesting from your comment is that you have figured out from where it gained prominence but none of our scholars who spent their whole lives in research & study of ahadith & lives of Imams.

Here are the statements of few of our prominent scholars:

1. Ayatullah Khoei:

لا ريب في أنّ الشهادة لعلي (عليه وعلى أولاده الطاهرين أفضل التحية والسلام) بالولاية وإن لم تكن جزءاً من الأذان والإقامة إلّا أنها في نفسها مستحبة بلا إشكال

2. Ayatullah Mohsin Al,-Hakeem:

قال السيّد محسن الحكيم في [منهاج الصالحين]: « وتستحب الشهادة على محمد وآله عند ذكر اسمه الشريف وإكمال الشهادتين بالشهادة لعلي (عليه السلام) بالولاية وإمرة المؤمنين في الأذان وغيره

3. Syed Abul Hasan al-Isfahanj:

وقال السيّد أبو الحسن الأصفهانيّ في [ذخيرة العباد ص112: « والشهادة بالولاية لعليّ (عليه السلام) ليست جزءاً من الأذان، ولكن حسن إذا أتى بها بعد الشهادة بالرسالة بقصد القربة »

4. Ayatullah Mirza Na'ini:

قال الميرزا النائينيّ في [وسيلة النجاة ص56]: « يستحب الصلاة على محمد وله عند ذكر اسمه الشريف وإكمال الشهادتين بالشهادة لعليّ (عليه السلام) بالولاية وإمرة المؤمنين في الأذان وغيره »

5. Syed Muhammad Mehdi al-Sadr:

وقال السيد محمد مهدي الصدر الكاظميّ في [بغية المقلدين ص52]: « الشهادة بولاية أمير المؤمنين وإنْ لم تكن جزءاً من الأذان والإقامة، لكنه حسن جداً، وإعلاء لكلمة الإيمان وفعلاً هو شعار الشيعة.. »

6. Sheikh Ahmed Kashif al-Ghita':

قال الشيخ أحمد كاشف الغطاء في [سفينة النجاة ج1 ص206]: « ويستحب في الأذان والإقامة إكمال الشهادتين بالشهادة بالولاية لعلي مرّتين وإنْ كانت خارجة عن فصولهما

7. Mirza Shirazi:

وقال الميرزا الشيرازيّ في [مجمع الرسائل ص98]: « الشهادة بالولاية لعليّ ليست جزءاً من الأذان، ولكن يُؤتى بها إما بقصد الرجحان في نفسه وإما بعد ذكر الرسالة، فإنه حسن ولا بأس به »»

8. Sheikh al-Ansari:

قال الشيخ الأنصاريّ في [النخبة ص52]: «الشهادة بالولاية لعليّ (عليه السلام) ليست جزءاً من الأذان، ولكن يستحب أن يُؤتى بها بقصد الرجحان إما في نفسه أو ذكر الرسول (صلى الله عليه وآله)»

I can go further back in time to pull out more. But I think there is no need for that hard work as you cannot claim that all the above scholars were on the payroll of Safavid's hence avoiding to speak truth. 

[Ethics]

18 minutes ago, Cool said:

Isn't it surprising that after 328 AH shias figured out the exact wordings of Adhan & Iqamah lol. And you are talking that it is not practiced by any Imam this essentially means what you know? We have ahadith, some even sahih infact, where they (عليه السلام) are commanding us to say the third testimony but they (عليه السلام) themselves were not saying it. No one can expect this from Imams. 

At least we have seen that saying of it was practiced even before 300AH, there are even reports that the third third testimony was in practice in the times of Ummiyad caliphs when they started cursing Ali (عليه السلام) from the mosques.

Not to mention why would the imams allow their followers to say something even mustahab that would get the shias killed? Even though just by being associated with the ahlulbayt got you on crosshairs already.. You think during our imams times the shias were allowed to openly practice the truth teachings of the Imams? I think what akbari and reformist shias do not even take into account is taqiyya when it comes to narrating hadith, teachings, preaching etc which is ironic considering their so much emphasize on hadith.

Imagine proclaiming in prayer that you accept imamate as the true wali/caliph of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...that is openly rejecting and proclaiming the illegitimacy of the caliphates of that time. For normal Shias that is literal suicide

Edited May 3 by Ethics

[Cool]

11 minutes ago, Ethics said:

why would the imams allow their followers to say something even mustahab

Yes, there are ahadith where Imams (عليه السلام) teaching their companions to say tathweeb in adhan. They sometimes preach the companions the adhan & iqamah exactly in the sunni way. 

I have already highlighted these ahadith.

Edited May 3 by Cool
Typo

[AbdusSibtayn]

I am trying to calculate if I am 'apostate' enough yet. Does the OP also have something like a rating chart? 

'Rubs his face against the dhareeh- ridda level 6'

'Cries near it, calling out to the wali buried within- ridda level 7.'

'Calls out to the masoomeen and other awliya during day to day difficulties- ridda level 8.'

It'd be helpful. 

[Guest Pure Tawheed]

18 minutes ago, AbdusSibtayn said:

I am trying to calculate if I am 'apostate' enough yet. Does the OP also have something like a rating chart? 

'Rubs his face against the dhareeh- ridda level 6'

'Cries near it, calling out to the wali buried within- ridda level 7.'

'Calls out to the masoomeen and other awliya during day to day difficulties- ridda level 8.'

It'd be helpful. 

Habibi, the user was asking if he was the one regarded as an apostate for not reciting added lines that were introduced by the Ghulat and Mufawwidah, by not crying out to created beings for health, wealth, children and sustenance, by wanting a closer relationship with the Quran, and whilst loving the Ahlulbayt recognising God-centrality, and the Sunnah.  He was not making Tafkir on you. 

My Islam is the Islam inshaAllah of Muhammed and ale Muhammed as they taught it - though i am a sinful, flawed, but repentful and growing human being who knows his flaws and knows he wants to be better.

So:

1. I only make Dua to the one closer to me than my jugular veins, and call out to him by his beautiful names. If i am in the middle of the seas, or on a plane and calamity strikes, if the Mushrikeen of Makkah at those times cried out Ya Allah, how on earth am i going to call out to other than Allah? 

2. My Adhan is the Adhan Muhammed and ale Muhammed recited. If there are a dozen or hundreds of mustahab phrases and if one can turn their adhans into anything and everything with the intention of Qurbat, let it be known had it been better to, ale Muhammed would have been foremost in doing so.

3. While i cry for Hussain b. Ali, i don't take of my shirt and start hitting myself in a violent manner, nor do i use chains or blades. I do, occasionally perform light, gentle, symbolic matam.

4. My focus is on Hajj, and Quran, as opposed to Noha's and ZIyarah, because i have not memorised the Quran , nor have i been to Hajj. InshaAllah, if i am blessed with Ziyarah it will be after the far more important Hajj / Umrah are performed, and none is more meritious to visit than the Messenger of Allah [saw]. If ii am granted the honour to visit his grave, i will affirm Tawheed at his grave, send my Salawat to him and his family, and beg Allah bihaaqi muhammed wa ale Muhammed for my Hajjat. 

5. The Imams are the ones we are commanded to follow as the Itrah and second weight. But they ate, slept, wet, had marital relations. They sometimes didn't know when their next meal would come.  The idea they made lions jump out of paintings, knew everything past, present and future, is a lie on them. They felt fear, they begged Allah in the middle of the night, in sincere hope, rather than all knowing, all powerful demi-deities. 

 

 

[AbdusSibtayn]

40 minutes ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

Habibi, the user was asking if he was the one regarded as an apostate for not reciting added lines that were introduced by the Ghulat and Mufawwidah, by not crying out to created beings for health, wealth, children and sustenance, by wanting a closer relationship with the Quran, and whilst loving the Ahlulbayt recognising God-centrality, and the Sunnah.  He was not making Tafkir on you. 

My Islam is the Islam inshaAllah of Muhammed and ale Muhammed as they taught it - though i am a sinful, flawed, but repentful and growing human being who knows his flaws and knows he wants to be better.

So:

1. I only make Dua to the one closer to me than my jugular veins, and call out to him by his beautiful names. If i am in the middle of the seas, or on a plane and calamity strikes, if the Mushrikeen of Makkah at those times cried out Ya Allah, how on earth am i going to call out to other than Allah? 

2. My Adhan is the Adhan Muhammed and ale Muhammed recited. If there are a dozen or hundreds of mustahab phrases and if one can turn their adhans into anything and everything with the intention of Qurbat, let it be known had it been better to, ale Muhammed would have been foremost in doing so.

3. While i cry for Hussain b. Ali, i don't take of my shirt and start hitting myself in a violent manner, nor do i use chains or blades. I do, occasionally perform light, gentle, symbolic matam.

4. My focus is on Hajj, and Quran, as opposed to Noha's and ZIyarah, because i have not memorised the Quran , nor have i been to Hajj. InshaAllah, if i am blessed with Ziyarah it will be after the far more important Hajj / Umrah are performed, and none is more meritious to visit than the Messenger of Allah [saw]. If ii am granted the honour to visit his grave, i will affirm Tawheed at his grave, send my Salawat to him and his family, and beg Allah bihaaqi muhammed wa ale Muhammed for my Hajjat. 

5. The Imams are the ones we are commanded to follow as the Itrah and second weight. But they ate, slept, wet, had marital relations. They sometimes didn't know when their next meal would come.  The idea they made lions jump out of paintings, knew everything past, present and future, is a lie on them. They felt fear, they begged Allah in the middle of the night, in sincere hope, rather than all knowing, all powerful demi-deities. 

 

 

Nice but irrelevant. Carry on. 

[Abu_Zahra]

4 hours ago, Cool said:

No one can expect this from Imams

Good, so we agree they didn't practice it.

4 hours ago, Cool said:

Here are the statements of few of our prominent scholars:

Indeed, as I mentioned the practice was only endorsed by Safavid and post Safavid scholars. Before 900 AH, we have only seen condemnations from Saduq, Tusi, Shaheed al Awwal, Shaheed al Thani, Muhaqqiq al Hilli etc  In fact it appears there was a 900 year ijmah on this topic which only got broken when the Safavids ordered the adhan to be recited in the modern way.

These are the facts.  How one then handles them is a question of methodology or opinion. 

[Abu_Zahra]

3 hours ago, Ethics said:

Not to mention why would the imams allow their followers to say something even mustahab that would get the shias killed? Even though just by being associated with the ahlulbayt got you on crosshairs already.. You think during our imams times the shias were allowed to openly practice the truth teachings of the Imams?

The ghulat/mufawwidah were essentially doing the kinds of things you think would have gotten the Shi'a killed, and yet they seemed to survive (but did unfortunately get cursed by the Aimmah (عليه السلام) which is much worse than being killed)

[Guest Pure Tawheed]

4 hours ago, Ethics said:

Not to mention why would the imams allow their followers to say something even mustahab that would get the shias killed? Even though just by being associated with the ahlulbayt got you on crosshairs already.. You think during our imams times the shias were allowed to openly practice the truth teachings of the Imams? I think what akbari and reformist shias do not even take into account is taqiyya when it comes to narrating hadith, teachings, preaching etc which is ironic considering their so much emphasize on hadith.

Imagine proclaiming in prayer that you accept imamate as the true wali/caliph of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)...that is openly rejecting and proclaiming the illegitimacy of the caliphates of that time. For normal Shias that is literal suicide

Imagine being taught a Ziyarah cursing companions and prominent Ummayad figures?

The reality is, even during more favourable times for the Shia, such as during the time of Saduq [ra] he himself did not find the need to add it.

Furthermore, the AImmah have taught their followers far more dangerous things, including Wilayah itself, and, even among their most trusted companions were never to have been found reciting or adding it. Nor do we have any examples that they asked their followers to recite it in secret, or only privately. 

There are no two ways around this brother Ethics. The Imams never recited it, or asked us to do so publicly or in secret, nor did any of our classical scholars. It was brought in by the mufawwidah, who the Imams cursed, and justified by modern day scholars under the pretext one can add as many Mustahab lines as they like to the Adhan (you can add L'anah ila Israell) if you like etc.

However, the best lines to utter during or along with the adhan, at the time of the salah, are the ones by the Prophet and his ahlulbayt. No more , no less. 

[Cool]

13 minutes ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Good, so we agree they didn't practice it.

 Excellent comprehension!!

13 minutes ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Before 900 AH, we have only seen condemnations from Saduq, Tusi, Shaheed al Awwal, Shaheed al Thani, Muhaqqiq al Hilli etc 

lol and again, the condemnation is only related to making the third trstimony a "part" of adhan.

المفوضة لعنهم الله قد وضعوا أخباراً وزادوا في الأذان

As for its istehbaab, sufficient are his words:

ولا شك أن علياً ولي الله، وأنه أمير المؤمنين حقاً، وأن محمداً وآله خير البرية. ولكن ذلك ليس في أصل الأذان

What else? He further explains the last part which is not highlighted:

وإنما ذكرت ذلك ليوف بهذه الزيادة المتهمون بالتفويض، المدلسون أنفسهم في جملتنا

 

[Cool]

3 minutes ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

The reality is, even during more favourable times for the Shia, such as during the time of Saduq [ra] he himself did not find the need to add it.

Correction please!!

Nothing has been "added" yet. 

[Guest Pure Tawheed]

Why are we fixating on the Adhan issue, it's established the Aimmah - at least there is no proof otherwise - never taught us to add it to adhan with intention of qurbat etc. It's your own doing, your own addition, and on the day of judgement, you will justify it. Nothing more needs to be said.

The more key issue, one pertaining to your salvation, is whether you believe you can pray and make Dua to other than Allah, with Dua being an act of worship.

Can you pray to Mary, Jesus, Hazrat Abbas etc for health, wealth, risq and sustenance, with the belief Allah has given them the power to grant and delegate sustenance? 

This imo, can affect your eternal life's outcome and where you go. It's serious, it is no joke brothers and sisters. 

I never make takfir, that is not my remit, i present what is clear and leave it at that. 

[X96]

3 hours ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

Why are we fixating on the Adhan issue, it's established the Aimmah - at least there is no proof otherwise - never taught us to add it to adhan with intention of qurbat etc. It's your own doing, your own addition, and on the day of judgement, you will justify it. Nothing more needs to be said.

The more key issue, one pertaining to your salvation, is whether you believe you can pray and make Dua to other than Allah, with Dua being an act of worship.

Can you pray to Mary, Jesus, Hazrat Abbas etc for health, wealth, risq and sustenance, with the belief Allah has given them the power to grant and delegate sustenance? 

This imo, can affect your eternal life's outcome and where you go. It's serious, it is no joke brothers and sisters. 

I never make takfir, that is not my remit, i present what is clear and leave it at that. 

Did any Ayatollahs forbid Istigatha?

[X96]

I would just like to say one of the reasons why many apostate is because of the rise of internet and the various differing views presented to people, it is hard to find the truth. Not only do you have Shia-Sunni polemics, you even have Shia-Shia polemics. 

In the olden days it was easier, you just followed what your community followed

[Guest Hello there]

On 4/28/2023 at 7:03 PM, Ya Mahdi1999 said:

Salam,

Before starting I would like to make this well clear; I have reviewed many sects within islam and am beyond convinced beyond conviction that shiaism is the true path to Allah and his Messenger. I have no doubts regarding the fundamental and foundation aspects of shiaism.

 

What I do have an issue with is the conduct of modern day shias, and even certain practices that have been adopted which seem to conflict with the quran and teachings of the Prophet and his immaculate progeny. I have tried to ignore this but it's becoming more and more obvious to a point that I am now writing this post.

There are a number of practices that are off-putting to me, whether it'd be ideas that are being taught to the masses or just simply trends that the youth are adopting. 

Here is a list of my below concerns that I hope at the very least can be addressed: 

1. Over decorating of the shrines: Numerous traditions highlight the importance of visitation to our aimmah, however it seems nowadays its more of a tourist destination than it is to connect to Allah through his vicevergents. Is it necessary to construct the dome out of pure gold, and overexhaust the interiors with pure diamonds and rubies? Would the Imam of our time approve of how we maintained the graves of his forefathers? We can the shrines and masajids beautiful in accordance to modern day architecture, but I feel like this is overindulgence, which is ironic considering the ahlulbayt lived ascetic lives and preferred their Lord over this dunya. Additionally we have narrations that when the Imam of our time returns, he will demolish numerous masajids because they have been over decorated.

 

2. Adding the 3rd kalimah into the adhan: We cannot bash sunnis/salafis for their own biddah in changing the adhan when we are guilty of this too. Majority of our classical scholars such as sheikh al sadooq, mufeed and others had condemned the motion of adding the 3rd kalimah into the adhan, yet it seems basically every modern day scholar permits it. Is there a way to justify this?

 

3. Our scholars are not vast in their teachings: Shias, or atleast western Shias seem to be lacking in teaching Islamic knowledge and ideas across a wide range of topics. Every lecture and series I attend is always pertaining the same topics; Imam Ali, Imam Hussain, saqifa, jamal/siffeen, 12 imams, Imam mahdi etc. Why aren't our scholars able to discuss other topics such as fiqh, barzakh, day of judgement, matters pertaining enjoying good and forbidding evil, modern day issues etc? 

4. Extreme Azadari: Of course we have some misguided individuals within our creed (and even scholars) that permit the idea of flagging oneself with knives and whips in commemoration for Imam Hussain. These are a minority and do not reflect the bulk of shias. However, I still find certain practices to be of question that the majority practice. For e.g. during the nights of Muharram after the majlis in my centers, all the men will come together to take their shirts off and start aggressively beating their chests. What is the meaning of this? It has no basis and never was endorsed by the Prophet or Imams. I have no objection in 'light' beating the chest, WITHOUT TAKING THE SHIRT OFF, but this is a tad too far

 

5. Our relationship with the quran. I too am guilty of this point myself. When I look at other sects, mashallah they are very well renowned in their relationship with the quran. Many of their masajids offer numerous quranic memorisation and tafsir classes throughout the week. When they offer their salat, they are able to recite the longer surahs. Compare this to our communities? At-least within my community, none of our masajids or hussaineyat offer these classes. Also it seems when we come together for jamaat prayers, the imam can only recite the small surahs (usually only surah tawheed and nass/falaq). It is quite embarassing especially since we have been blessed in having the correct aqida and understanding of the quran through the ahlulbayt

 

6. Praying to the Imams: no doubt the Prophet and the Imams are able to intercede for us and even perhaps plea to Allah on our behalf, but some shias take this too far. 

For e.g. i have heard/read so many times people saying that if one wishes to have their dua answered, they should do wudu and raise their hands to the sky and invoke Imam Hussain for him to answer their pleas. This is pure shirk I am sorry. The Prophet nor imams answer our dua. They are merely intercedors. The best way around this in my view is to say the following "Ya Allah I ask you through your love of your beloved servant Imam Hussain, to answer my dua".... This is the correct way and one that aligns to tawheed. One could even say, if they wish to address the holy personalities directly, "Ya Hussain, I ask you as the proof of Allah to intercede on my behalf and ask Allah to provide for me so and so"

7. A rise in our youths having tattoos. What is the deal with this? Everytime I attend a masjid, I find literally half the young men there with tattoos. Why have tattoos been permitted? I am no hadith expert but I recall reading a saying from Imam al Sadiq (عليه السلام) whereby he outright condemns tattoos (not sure of its grading). Even though it's not hujjah upon us, but if we look outside of shia narrations, you'll find numerous traditions in other schools whereby the Prophet cursed the one who gets a tattoo. Even in other scriptures such as the old and new testament, tattoos are disliked. So why don't our scholars prohibit this, or at the very least say it is makrooh? Who are our youths trying to imitate; the ahlulbayt and their rightful followers, or are they trying to replicate singers, actors, gang members?? 

 

I am just confused right now and would like your thoughts on the points I raised and even maybe clarification. 

 

Jzk

Thank you for this. As a shia myself some of them are the same problems I have been facing myself. At times I felt ashamed and thought maybe I wasn't a good shia like others but to know I'm not alone in this makes me relieved. I was contemplating between sunni and shia because of the issues you raised. how you felt I was feeling too. I'm so happy to know I am not alone in thinking this way. 

[Guest Hello]

On 4/28/2023 at 7:03 PM, Ya Mahdi1999 said:

Salam,

Before starting I would like to make this well clear; I have reviewed many sects within islam and am beyond convinced beyond conviction that shiaism is the true path to Allah and his Messenger. I have no doubts regarding the fundamental and foundation aspects of shiaism.

 

What I do have an issue with is the conduct of modern day shias, and even certain practices that have been adopted which seem to conflict with the quran and teachings of the Prophet and his immaculate progeny. I have tried to ignore this but it's becoming more and more obvious to a point that I am now writing this post.

There are a number of practices that are off-putting to me, whether it'd be ideas that are being taught to the masses or just simply trends that the youth are adopting. 

Here is a list of my below concerns that I hope at the very least can be addressed: 

1. Over decorating of the shrines: Numerous traditions highlight the importance of visitation to our aimmah, however it seems nowadays its more of a tourist destination than it is to connect to Allah through his vicevergents. Is it necessary to construct the dome out of pure gold, and overexhaust the interiors with pure diamonds and rubies? Would the Imam of our time approve of how we maintained the graves of his forefathers? We can the shrines and masajids beautiful in accordance to modern day architecture, but I feel like this is overindulgence, which is ironic considering the ahlulbayt lived ascetic lives and preferred their Lord over this dunya. Additionally we have narrations that when the Imam of our time returns, he will demolish numerous masajids because they have been over decorated.

 

2. Adding the 3rd kalimah into the adhan: We cannot bash sunnis/salafis for their own biddah in changing the adhan when we are guilty of this too. Majority of our classical scholars such as sheikh al sadooq, mufeed and others had condemned the motion of adding the 3rd kalimah into the adhan, yet it seems basically every modern day scholar permits it. Is there a way to justify this?

 

3. Our scholars are not vast in their teachings: Shias, or atleast western Shias seem to be lacking in teaching Islamic knowledge and ideas across a wide range of topics. Every lecture and series I attend is always pertaining the same topics; Imam Ali, Imam Hussain, saqifa, jamal/siffeen, 12 imams, Imam mahdi etc. Why aren't our scholars able to discuss other topics such as fiqh, barzakh, day of judgement, matters pertaining enjoying good and forbidding evil, modern day issues etc? 

4. Extreme Azadari: Of course we have some misguided individuals within our creed (and even scholars) that permit the idea of flagging oneself with knives and whips in commemoration for Imam Hussain. These are a minority and do not reflect the bulk of shias. However, I still find certain practices to be of question that the majority practice. For e.g. during the nights of Muharram after the majlis in my centers, all the men will come together to take their shirts off and start aggressively beating their chests. What is the meaning of this? It has no basis and never was endorsed by the Prophet or Imams. I have no objection in 'light' beating the chest, WITHOUT TAKING THE SHIRT OFF, but this is a tad too far

 

5. Our relationship with the quran. I too am guilty of this point myself. When I look at other sects, mashallah they are very well renowned in their relationship with the quran. Many of their masajids offer numerous quranic memorisation and tafsir classes throughout the week. When they offer their salat, they are able to recite the longer surahs. Compare this to our communities? At-least within my community, none of our masajids or hussaineyat offer these classes. Also it seems when we come together for jamaat prayers, the imam can only recite the small surahs (usually only surah tawheed and nass/falaq). It is quite embarassing especially since we have been blessed in having the correct aqida and understanding of the quran through the ahlulbayt

 

6. Praying to the Imams: no doubt the Prophet and the Imams are able to intercede for us and even perhaps plea to Allah on our behalf, but some shias take this too far. 

For e.g. i have heard/read so many times people saying that if one wishes to have their dua answered, they should do wudu and raise their hands to the sky and invoke Imam Hussain for him to answer their pleas. This is pure shirk I am sorry. The Prophet nor imams answer our dua. They are merely intercedors. The best way around this in my view is to say the following "Ya Allah I ask you through your love of your beloved servant Imam Hussain, to answer my dua".... This is the correct way and one that aligns to tawheed. One could even say, if they wish to address the holy personalities directly, "Ya Hussain, I ask you as the proof of Allah to intercede on my behalf and ask Allah to provide for me so and so"

7. A rise in our youths having tattoos. What is the deal with this? Everytime I attend a masjid, I find literally half the young men there with tattoos. Why have tattoos been permitted? I am no hadith expert but I recall reading a saying from Imam al Sadiq (عليه السلام) whereby he outright condemns tattoos (not sure of its grading). Even though it's not hujjah upon us, but if we look outside of shia narrations, you'll find numerous traditions in other schools whereby the Prophet cursed the one who gets a tattoo. Even in other scriptures such as the old and new testament, tattoos are disliked. So why don't our scholars prohibit this, or at the very least say it is makrooh? Who are our youths trying to imitate; the ahlulbayt and their rightful followers, or are they trying to replicate singers, actors, gang members?? 

 

I am just confused right now and would like your thoughts on the points I raised and even maybe clarification. 

 

Jzk

Please rewrite masha'Allah like this

[Cool]

10 hours ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

etc. It's your own doing, your own addition, and on the day of judgement, you will justify it. Nothing more needs to be said.

Ok, so based on your insistence on your ignorance as well as your poor line of reasoning, we have also added جل جلاله or جل شأنه after saying Allaho Akbar. We have also added وحده لا شريك له after saying the first testimony. We also have added the salawat or (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after saying the second testimony. 

Set aside the adhan & iqamah, we also have added the salawat in ruku, in sujood and in tashahud of salah. We also have added a dua in the last sajdah of salah like saying يا لطيف! ارحم عبدك الضعيف. 

So we are indeed either apostates, or perhaps mushriks or may be you award us the title of kafir. We are the people of bid'ah who invent a d add new things into religion, we are the people of misguidance who "worship" Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Ali (عليه السلام) or anyone else you name. 

You are set free to say all this without fearing of the day of judgement. You are free to say that people like us are destined for hell. And you are free to say all this as a guest. We on the other hand are trying to comply with the rules of business of this site. 

Just know that we are already familiar with all what you are saying. Nawasibs and Wahabi's have already provided us enough immunity. And lastly don't let us know whom do we worship and which of our words becomes dua. We have ilm e hudoori and we know what we are saying and to whom we are supplicating.

Wassalam!!

[Abu_Zahra]

7 hours ago, X96 said:

In the olden days it was easier, you just followed what your community followed

2:170

And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided?

 

2 hours ago, Guest Hello there said:

Thank you for this. As a shia myself some of them are the same problems I have been facing myself. At times I felt ashamed and thought maybe I wasn't a good shia like others but to know I'm not alone in this makes me relieved. I was contemplating between sunni and shia because of the issues you raised. how you felt I was feeling too. I'm so happy to know I am not alone in thinking this way. 

Yes this is a more common issue than what people imagine. My only advice is to hold onto the thaqalayn and follow the authentic manhaj of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). The problems within the Shi'a community should not cause one to abandon the manhaj, rather to cleanse it from contaminations.

 

[Eddie Mecca]

On 5/2/2023 at 11:49 PM, Abu_Zahra said:

Wa alaikum as salam brother 

Yes I think your position on this is clear and it is also the conventional position today, ie that it isn't part of the adhan but can be recited as a 'supplement'

Regarding your comment about its recitation during the time of as Saduq, I am not looking at the opinion of Saduq alone, rather the fact that for 900 years this was not a mainstream Shi'i practice. We don't find any scholars who supported or condoned this, rather we have multiple scholars who condemned it and of course and more importantly no evidence that any of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) practiced this. 

In any case it is a discussion that has occured several times on this forum so I don't think we need to repeat it if there's nothing new to add. 

@Abu_Zahra, As-Salaam Aleikum brother...for clarification purposes...your stance is a pro-Tawassul and anti-Istighatha position...is that correct? Tawassul = 1.) Seeking intercession through living holy people or 2.) Seeking intercession through invoking the name of Allah directly then attaching the name of a deceased prophet, viceregent, divine guide, saint etc. 3.) Seeking intercession through our righteous deeds and actions (prostration, prayer, fasting, almsgiving etc.)…Istighatha = 1.) Seeking intercession from (or through) created beings directly for financial assistance, sexual potency, passing USMLE (United States Medical Licensing Exam) or whatever...Top-Down Approach (Tawassul) versus Bottom-Up Methodology (Istighatha)

Also, are there examples in nascent Shi'ism where Istighatha was practiced? If no, then when did the practice as it's known (or seen) today emerge? If yes, can you cite examples? By "nascent Shi'ism" I mean during the lifetime of the Imams (peace be upon them) themselves or shortly after the passing of the Arba'a Abwāb (may Allah exalt their ranks)…Thanks in advance  

Edited May 4 by Eddie Mecca

[Guest Pure Tawheed]

11 hours ago, X96 said:

Did any Ayatollahs forbid Istigatha?

Bismillah,

Salam,

The question of whether it is permissible to believe there are entities other than Allah [ghair-ullah] who we can make Dua to/pray to, for sustenance, in times of peril, in times of need, with the intention they have been given the power by Allah to grant, hear, and provide risq to the supplicant when they supplicate to them, is not a Fiqh issue one can refer to the scholars over, it is an Aqeedah issue.

One can not defer to a Marja to convince themselves that Allah is one in his absolute oneness and indivisibility, such that he is not numerable or quantifiable i.e it is impossible for there to be a second. 

However, there are a good handful of famous modern day scholars, as well as speakers, who have explicitly stated Dua is only for Allah. I will post their names and the exact link to either videos on Shia YT channels where they explicitly say it, or on their websites where they give Fatawah about it. There is also a growing movement of people , especially the al-Islah institute led effectively, by Sayed Kamapoori. I don't agree with everything they say, but on Ghuluw pertaining to attributing that which should only be Allah's , i firmly agree. 

Grand Marja' Taqleed, As-Sayeed Muhammed Hussain Fadllalah (ra):

Fatwah:  http://english.bayynat.org.lb/faq/faq_yaali.htm

Grand Marja' Taqleed, Muhammed Hussain Najafi [Dhakku]:

Fatwah/ Video: https://youtu.be/py5zhtLHeiA

Shaykh Yassir Awdah, quoting the representative of Grand Marja' Ay.Khamanei: 

Video: https://youtu.be/IxEP8KMwov8

Sayed Ammar Nakhswani, explicitly saying not to make Dua to other than Allah:

VIdeo: https://youtu.be/5bwf1Q3Xdw0

Shayk Arif, head of the al-Mahdi institute, Birmingham, United Kingdom, dedicating an entire 10 part series on refuting the idea of Ghuluw/Tafweed/making Dua to other than Allah:

Video: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRcPfyWiWk8nJxK-QzaZe3vaOKnuxZK5D

And of course, you will find hundreds of hours worth of material at high level, dissecting the chains of narrators, giving pretty much indepth analysis, arabic translations, inside-knowledge of scholars and their manhaj i.e. who favours which rijal book, and a robust refutation of those who believe we can pray to/make Dua to other than Allah and ask the for health, wealth, and children at Al-Islah. 

Al-Islah institute: https://youtu.be/OHLk2M0V-jc

6 hours ago, Guest Hello there said:

Thank you for this. As a shia myself some of them are the same problems I have been facing myself. At times I felt ashamed and thought maybe I wasn't a good shia like others but to know I'm not alone in this makes me relieved. I was contemplating between sunni and shia because of the issues you raised. how you felt I was feeling too. I'm so happy to know I am not alone in thinking this way. 

You are not alone. Throughout the history of Shia Chat, we have had giants, arguably our most knowledgeable users explicitly against Dua to other than Allah, and a lot of the self-harm, ritualistic type actions you find done by the lay people today. 

Nader Zaveri has dedicated an entire website: http://www.revivingalislam.com/

While i am not claiming users like Islamic Salvation or Nader Zaveri endorse what i am saying, only they can speak what is on their minds, you have a website by Islamic Salvation whereby it clearly states, the Imam [as] didn't know when his next meal would come from, so how can one claim they know everything and anything , past , present, future until the day of judgement? 

Here's the link:  https://shiiticstudies.com/2020/10/06/the-worldview-of-the-ghulat-pt-i/#f16

So how can ahlul-mimbar, and people on here claim the Imams knew every single thing that was, and will be, except the date of the day of judgement? Apparently, they knew when they'd have kids, what their kids would look like, every ailment that would befall their kids  This is all a lie on ale Muhammed.

You also have the links aboved, with the same concerns you and i share echoed by Grand maraji', famous speakers, heads of institutes etc. 

Our Islam is the Islam of Muhammed and ale Muhammed, that was God-centric, that recognised Muhammed and ale Muhammed as the chosen slaves of Allah, but did not attribute to them what the Muffawidah and Ghulat did, in answering prayers, giving sustenance, being the one to supplicate to at all times including sujood, having knowledge of all there is and was except the day of judgement etc.  

Ultimately , the truth of the path of Muhammed and ale Muhammed is clear. I have written some articles in-depth refuting salafi/typical claims made by famous anti-shia websites. I have taken these arguments directly to the people who make those websites/write those articles, and they literally had no answers, for truth is truth.

Here is the website:  https://shiaresponses.wordpress.com/

[Eddie Mecca]

16 hours ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

If ii am granted the honour to visit his grave, i will affirm Tawheed at his grave, send my Salawat to him and his family, and beg Allah bihaaqi muhammed wa ale Muhammed for my Hajjat

I believe Istighatha in the actual vicinity (e.g. grave, shrine) of a deceased venerated figure is considered allowable...they are alive and in a blessed state and they can hear infinitely better than we can...there's evidence for this...Muhammad famously (acknowledged by all Muslim sects) spoke to the dead pagan Meccans following the Battle of Badr saying, “We have found the promise of our Lord to be true, did you find true what your Lord promised you?” Umar said, “O Messenger of Allah, are you speaking to bodies that possess no souls?” The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) replied, “They hear better than you except that they are unable to reply.” Also, "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord; They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah. And with regard to those left behind, who have not yet joined them (in their bliss), the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve. Qurʾān 3:169–170(7) Also, Muhammad said, “The best day is Friday, so send blessings on me frequently on that day as your prayers are reviewed by me.” They (Companions) asked him, “How can you review our blessings after your body has decayed, O Messenger of Allah?” He said, “Allah has prohibited the Earth from consuming the bodies His prophets.”

Edited May 4 by Eddie Mecca

[Guest Pure Tawheed]

4 hours ago, Cool said:

Ok, so based on your insistence on your ignorance as well as your poor line of reasoning, we have also added جل جلاله or جل شأنه after saying Allaho Akbar. We have also added وحده لا شريك له after saying the first testimony. We also have added the salawat or (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) after saying the second testimony. 

Set aside the adhan & iqamah, we also have added the salawat in ruku, in sujood and in tashahud of salah. We also have added a dua in the last sajdah of salah like saying يا لطيف! ارحم عبدك الضعيف. 

So we are indeed either apostates, or perhaps mushriks or may be you award us the title of kafir. We are the people of bid'ah who invent a d add new things into religion, we are the people of misguidance who "worship" Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Ali (عليه السلام) or anyone else you name. 

You are set free to say all this without fearing of the day of judgement. You are free to say that people like us are destined for hell. And you are free to say all this as a guest. We on the other hand are trying to comply with the rules of business of this site. 

Just know that we are already familiar with all what you are saying. Nawasibs and Wahabi's have already provided us enough immunity. And lastly don't let us know whom do we worship and which of our words becomes dua. We have ilm e hudoori and we know what we are saying and to whom we are supplicating.

Wassalam!!

I never make tafkir.

But Dua is for Allah and Allah alone. Only Allah allots the Risq, and only Allah grants our Dua, and only Allah is the one who, when the seas engulf us, whereby even the Mushriks would abandon all else and call on him alone, is the one we should call to.

When you're about to go for a job interview, do as Moses did. Don't ask Hazrat Abbas to grant you courage and strength and fulfill your needs, instead ask Allah to open your chest, untie the knot in your tounge. 

It is within your right to add as many, individually mustahab lines to recite, but my Adhan/Iqamah will remain that of ale Muhammed and not the one our scholars testify was brought in by the very group the Imams performed L'anah on (The mufawwidah). 

They go left, i go left. They go right, i go right. They stop, i stop. 

[Guest Pure Tawheed]

4 minutes ago, Eddie Mecca said:

I believe Istighatha in the actual vicinity (e.g. grave, shrine) of a deceased venerated figure is considered allowable...they are alive and in a blessed state and they can hear infinitely better than we can...there's evidence for this...Muhammad famously (acknowledged by all Muslim sects) spoke to the dead pagan Meccans following the Battle of Badr saying, “We have found the promise of our Lord to be true, did you find true what your Lord promised you?” Umar said, “O Messenger of Allah, Are you are speaking to bodies that possess no souls?”  The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) replied, “They hear better than you except that they are unable to reply.” Also, "Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord; They rejoice in the bounty provided by Allah. And with regard to those left behind, who have not yet joined them (in their bliss), the (Martyrs) glory in the fact that on them is no fear, nor have they (cause to) grieve. Qurʾān 3:169–170(7) Also, Muhammad said, “The best day is Friday, so send blessings on me frequently on that day as your prayers are reviewed by me.” They (Companions) asked him, “How can you review our blessings after your body has decayed, O Messenger of Allah?” He said, “Allah has prohibited the Earth to consume the bodies His prophets.”

You can not ask Muhammed [saw] to grant you forgiveness, risq, health, wealth, and children, never the less.

If Allah wills my salams to reach Muhammed [saw], then so be it.

But i will never directly ask the Prophet for health, wealth, and sustenance, when people even during the time he was alive never came to him for these things.

[Cool]

1 hour ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

The question of whether it is permissible to believe there are entities other than Allah [ghair-ullah] who we can make Dua to/pray to, for sustenance, in times of peril, in times of need, 

Guest Pure Tawheed, 

The more you write the more you express your ignorance. Only a Kafir would believe there are entities other than Allah who can hear the "dua". Neither any Ayatullah says this, approves this or allow this. 

1 hour ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

with the intention they have been given the power by Allah to grant, hear, and provide risq to the supplicant when they supplicate to them, is not a Fiqh issue one can refer to the scholars over, it is an Aqeedah issue.

Have you ever feed any poor or needy person? So you become Allah (na'udobillah) when you are providing rizq to the poor or needy person? Or you are ghayr Allah who is spending from what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given you and commanded you to spend?

Have you ever helped any believer who asked your help? What would you say to the call of help of that believer? He is making a dua to you? He is supplicating to you? 

Your problem was correctly identified by me earlier and now you have confirmed it lol. 

1 hour ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

There is also a growing movement of people , especially the al-Islah institute led effectively, by Sayed Kamapoori

lol, Finally you have shown yourself. 

1 hour ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

don't agree with everything they say, but on Ghuluw pertaining to attributing that which should only be Allah's , i firmly agree. 

lol, you actually agree with him 100% on every matter and on everything which he says. 

So you and @Abu_Zahra belongs to same tribe. Both of you believe that Prophet & Imams cannot hear you even if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) appoint them as witness over you. 

لتكون شهداء على الناس و يكون الرسول عليكم شهيدا 

So essentially both of you, not only denying these blessed verses but also trying to limit the "qudrat" of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

And what else one could expect from the lovers of likes of Abu Jahel of this time Mr. Kamanpoori. 

Your gross inability to understand the difference between دعا & استعانة is apparent. So صبر & صلاة are Allah? From them Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) commanded you to seek help. 

No I should rather use your words lol, from them Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded you to supplicate. 

1 hour ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

and a robust refutation of those who believe we can pray to/make Dua to other than Allah and ask the for health, wealth, and children at Al-Islah. 

lol, the one who don't even know what an istighfaar could do for him. The one who also don't have any idea what the istaghfaar of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imam (عليه السلام) could do for him.

What a shame for you people is that you keep on denying the verses of Quran. 

ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاؤوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما 

Why Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned واستغفر لهم الرسول here? Why the companions, after doing injustice, went to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? 

(Note here for the readers is that shirk is also injustice rather it is mentioned as ظلم عظيم in Quran. The majority of those who believe often do this injustice unknowingly as a verse of Quran says:

وَمَا يُؤْمِنُ أَكْثَرُهُمْ بِاللَّهِ إِلَّا وَهُمْ مُشْرِكُونَ

12:106) And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him).

The verse before this is mentioning something more important:

وَكَأَيِّنْ مِنْ آيَةٍ فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ يَمُرُّونَ عَلَيْهَا وَهُمْ عَنْهَا مُعْرِضُونَ 

12:105) And how many a sign in the heavens and the earth which they pass by, yet they turn aside from it.

The very beings of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) & Imams are among divine signs)

Indeed my Lord has spoken the truth, the mentality of these reformists & wahabis/nawasibs is identical in a sense, effort of both is to eliminate the wasilah

و ما قدر الله حق قدره

يريدون لِيُطْفِئُوا نور الله بافواهيهم

Edited May 4 by Cool

[Cool]

6 minutes ago, Cool said:

Have you ever feed any poor or needy person? So you become Allah (na'udobillah) when you are providing rizq to the poor or needy person? Or you are ghayr Allah who is spending from what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given you and commanded you to spend?

Have you ever helped any believer who asked your help? What would you say to the call of help of that believer? He is making a dua to you? He is supplicating to you? 

Your problem was correctly identified by me earlier and now you have confirmed it lol. 

The above questions I have been asking from pure tawheed repeatedly and every time he ignore these questions lol.

[Abu_Zahra]

6 hours ago, Cool said:

Only a Kafir would believe there are entities other than Allah who can hear the "dua". Neither any Ayatullah says this, approves this or allow this. 

 

6 hours ago, Cool said:

 

So you and @Abu_Zahra belongs to same tribe. Both of you believe that Prophet & Imams cannot hear you even if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) appoint them as witness over you. 

I rest my case 

[Guest Pure Tawheed]

8 hours ago, Cool said:

Guest Pure Tawheed, 

The more you write the more you express your ignorance. Only a Kafir would believe there are entities other than Allah who can hear the "dua". Neither any Ayatullah says this, approves this or allow this. 

 

Are you sure this is your view?

[Cool]

9 hours ago, Guest Pure Tawheed said:

Are you sure this is your view?

ان الله لسميع الدعا

Why should I answer your questions when you are ignoring mine?

اليه يصعد كلمة الطيب

Wassalam!!

[realizm]

On 5/4/2023 at 11:03 AM, Cool said:

What a shame for you people is that you keep on denying the verses of Quran. 

ولو أنهم إذ ظلموا أنفسهم جاؤوك فاستغفروا الله واستغفر لهم الرسول لوجدوا الله توابا رحيما 

Brother, I think you are mixing up things here. 

Do we agree that the verse mean something in the lines of "If they had come after they had erred and done wrong to themselves, asking forgiveness to Allah, and that the Messenger himself had asked for their forgiveness, then they would have found Allah Tawwaban Rahima'? 

If we do, 

Then why do you immediately deduce that it is themselves that had asked the Messenger (sawas) to ask for their forgiveness ? 

The way I read Qur'an, I understand Allah (sawas) mentions the Prophet as a person with a tendency to pray for others because that's in his character. More than a person to whom people turn in times of needs, even if it may occur in some occasions. 

But one way or the other, the verse you quoted does not only mention a condition where the Prophet asks for someone's forgiveness, it implies someone asking for Allah's mercy in the first place. 

 

[Cool]

38 minutes ago, realizm said:

Brother, I think you are mixing up things here. 

Salam Brother!

Since I don't consider you a troll, so I have decided to respond to your query. 

41 minutes ago, realizm said:

Then why do you immediately deduce that it is themselves that had asked the Messenger (sawas) to ask for their forgiveness ? 

The way I read Qur'an, I understand Allah (sawas) mentions the Prophet as a person with a tendency to pray for others because that's in his character. More than a person to whom people turn in times of needs, even if it may occur in some occasions

Indeed, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has sent His Messenger as mercy for the worlds. And he (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) certainly hold the capacity of asking forgiveness for the believers specifically those who sincerely repent. This tendency has also been infused in the angels as a verse mentions the dua of angels:

رَبَّنَا وَسِعْتَ كُلَّ شَيْءٍ رَحْمَةً وَعِلْمًا فَاغْفِرْ لِلَّذِينَ تَابُوا وَاتَّبَعُوا سَبِيلَكَ وَقِهِمْ عَذَابَ الْجَحِيمِ

40:7) Our Lord! Thou embracest all things in mercy and knowledge, therefore grant protection to those who turn (to Thee) and follow Thy way, and save them from the punishment of the hell:

It should also be noted that at another place, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned this important statement:

لِيَغْفِرَ لَكَ اللَّهُ مَا تَقَدَّمَ مِنْ ذَنْبِكَ وَمَا تَأَخَّرَ وَيُتِمَّ نِعْمَتَهُ عَلَيْكَ وَيَهْدِيَكَ صِرَاطًا مُسْتَقِيمًا
48:2) That Allah may forgive your community their past faults and those to follow and complete His favor to you and keep you on a right way,

This means it has been promised by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that if anyone sincerely follow the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) forgiveness will accompany him. 

In that sense, following the Prophet brings forgiveness of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), this is mentioned in another place:

71:3-4) That you should serve Allah and be careful of (your duty to) Him and obey me: He will forgive you some of your faults and grant you a delay to an appointed term; surely the term of Allah when it comes is not postponed; did you but know!

Now coming to your point, actually we cannot get rid of the fact that we need a wasilah in any form or way to reach to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). From our actions/deeds to whatever Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has provided for us and mentioned specifically as bearer of divine mercy or in a place, commanded us to seek help "through" some things. The verse in question has a historical back ground too. There are verses which clearly mentioning this:

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ تَعَالَوْا إِلَىٰ مَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ وَإِلَى الرَّسُولِ رَأَيْتَ الْمُنَافِقِينَ يَصُدُّونَ عَنْكَ صُدُودًا {61}

4:61) And when it is said to them: Come to what Allah has revealed and to the Messenger, you will see the hypocrites turning away from you with (utter) aversion.

This same "come" (تعالوا) is mentioned in another place:

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ تَعَالَوْا يَسْتَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ لَوَّوْا رُءُوسَهُمْ وَرَأَيْتَهُمْ يَصُدُّونَ وَهُمْ مُسْتَكْبِرُونَ 

63:5) And when it is said to them: Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you, they turn back their heads and you may see them turning away while they are big with pride. 

So come here perhaps pointing towards "coming to messenger in submission". With these supporting verse, I think it should get clear to you that repentance is a process which starts with being ashamed on wrong doing, confessing the wrong doings before Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and because the wrong doing itself is a thing which caused the disobedience of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as well, so how is it possible that one feel arrogant enough to ignore the very being of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? We have to approach him (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and should ask his help too for the forgiveness of sin which is a result of disobedience of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His Messenger (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). And why would anyone refuse to come to that thing which is mentioned as "urwatul wuthqa" & "hablillah" in Quran? As per the above verse of chapter 63, only a munafiq has the capacity of "turning away with pride" from the hablillah. 

So lets take a look at the text of verse you quoted:

  وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوك

( had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you) 

This "coming" to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has been explained in earlier verses as well:

فَكَيْفَ إِذَا أَصَابَتْهُمْ مُصِيبَةٌ بِمَا قَدَّمَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ جَاءُوكَ يَحْلِفُونَ بِاللَّهِ إِنْ أَرَدْنَا إِلَّا إِحْسَانًا وَتَوْفِيقًا

4:62) But how will it be when misfortune befalls them on account of what their hands have sent before? Then they will come to you swearing by Allah: We did not desire (anything) but good and concord.

Verse 63 mentions these people as people of impure hearts, liars, those whose hearts were sealed:

أُولَٰئِكَ الَّذِينَ يَعْلَمُ اللَّهُ مَا فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ فَأَعْرِضْ عَنْهُمْ وَعِظْهُمْ وَقُلْ لَهُمْ فِي أَنْفُسِهِمْ قَوْلًا بَلِيغًا {63}

[Shakir 4:63] These are they of whom Allah knows what is in their hearts; therefore turn aside from them and admonish them, and speak to them effectual words concerning themselves.

See what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has commanded to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? Is there a command to seek forgiveness for these types of people? While the verse 64 mentions the people having sincerity in their hearts, so the asking of forgiveness for them is mentioned as a condition for the forgiveness of their sins:

فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ

(and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them)

Means they confessed their wrongdoing before Allah, asked His forgiveness, has this alone was sufficient, it would not have said "and Messenger has (also) asked forgiveness for them".

So only after proper compliance of the process of repentance, one would find the divine forgiveness:

لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا 

I hope I am clear. If you need further explanation, feel free to submit your query. 

May the blessings of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) be with you brother.

Wassalam!

[313_Waiter]

On 5/4/2023 at 7:03 PM, Cool said:

Have you ever feed any poor or needy person? So you become Allah (na'udobillah) when you are providing rizq to the poor or needy person? Or you are ghayr Allah who is spending from what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given you and commanded you to spend?

Have you ever helped any believer who asked your help? What would you say to the call of help of that believer? He is making a dua to you? He is supplicating to you? 

Your problem was correctly identified by me earlier and now you have confirmed it lol. 

Your questions are very important and remind me of a few Hadiths I will quote below, from both Sunni and Shi’i texts.

Shi’i Hadith:

 

Quote

https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/14/2/62/1
1 - أخبرني أبو الحسين طاهر بن محمد بن يونس بن حياة الفقيه ببلخ، قال: حدثنا محمد بن عثمان الهروي، قال: حدثنا أبو محمد الحسن بن الحسين بن مهاجر قال: حدثنا هشام بن خالد، قال: حدثنا الحسن بن يحيى الحنيني قال حدثنا صدقة بن عبد الله، عن هشام، عن أنس عن النبي صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم، عن جبرئيل، عن الله عز وجل، قال: قال الله تبارك وتعالى: من أهان وليا لي فقد بارزني بالمحاربة وما ترددت في شئ أنا فاعله مثل ما ترددت في قبض نفس المؤمن يكره الموت وأكره مساءته ولا بد له منه، وما تقرب إلي عبدي بمثل أداء ما افترضت عليه، ولا يزال عبدي يتنفل لي حتى أحبه، ومتى أحببته كنت له سمعا وبصرا ويدا ومؤيدا، إن دعاني أجبته، وإن سألني أعطيته، وإن من عبادي المؤمنين لمن يريد الباب من العبادة فأكفه عنه لئلا يدخله عجب فيفسده ذلك، وإن من عبادي المؤمنين لمن لا يصلح إيمانه إلا بالفقر ولو أغنيته لأفسده ذلك، وإن من عبادي المؤمنين لمن لا يصلح إيمانه إلا بالغناء ولو أفقرته لأفسده ذلك، وإن من عبادي المؤمنين لمن لا يصلح إيمانه إلا بالسقم ولو صححت جسمه لأفسده ذلك وإن من عبادي المؤمنين لمن لا يصلح إيمانه إلا بالصحة ولو أسقمته لأفسده ذلك، إني أدبر عبادي لعلمي بقلوبهم، فإني عليم خبير. 

1. Abu al-husayn Tahir ibn Muhammad ibn yunys ibn Haywah the Jurist in Balkh reported to us that Muhammad ibn `Uthman al-Hirawi said: Abu Muhammad al-Hasan ibn al-Husaynibn Muhajir said: Hisham ibn Khalid said: al-Hasan ibn Yahya al-Hunayni said: Sadaqah ibn `Abd Allah said, on the authority of Hisham, on the authority of Anas that The Prophet (SA) said: Jibra’il said: Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, said: Whoever insults My Beloved one has declared war on Me. I do not hesitate in anything like I do when I seize the soul of a believer. He abhors death, and I abhor his evil deeds. However, there is no escape from it. My Servant is never so close to Me as when he fulfils all that I have made obligatory on him. My servant continues to perform superogatory prayers until I star to love him. And when I stat to love him, I become his hearing, his seeing, his hand, and his supporter. When he calls Me, I answer him. And if he asks Me for something, I bestow it upon him. Verily, among My believing servants is one that intends an act of service, but I prevent him from it so self-admiration does not enter him, as this would lead to his destruction. Among My believing servants is one whose faith will not be proper unless he remains poor, for if I made him wealthy, it would lead to his destruction. Among My believing servants is one whose faith will not be proper unless he is wealth, for if I made him poor it would lead to his destruction. Among My believing servants is one whose faith will not be proper unless he is ill, for if I made him healthy, it would lead to his destruction. Among My believing servant sis one whose faith would not be proper unless he was healthy, for if I made him ill, it would lead to his destruction. Verily, I mange My Servants though my Knowledge of what is in their hearts. Verily, I am the AllKnowing, the All-informed.

 

Sunni Ahadith:

Quote

https://sunnah.com/qudsi40:18
On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

Allah (mighty and sublime be He) will say on the Day of Resurrection: O son of Adam, I fell ill and you visited Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I visit You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so had fallen ill and you visited him not? Did you not know that had you visited him you would have found Me with him? O son of Adam, I asked you for food and you fed Me not. He will say: O Lord, and how should I feed You when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: Did you not know that My servant So-and-so asked you for food and you fed him not? Did you not know that had you fed him you would surely have found that (the reward for doing so) with Me? O son of Adam, I asked you to give Me to drink and you gave Me not to drink. He will say: O Lord, how should I give You to drink when You are the Lord of the worlds? He will say: My servant So-and-so asked you to give him to drink and you gave him not to drink. Had you given him to drink you would have surely found that with Me. 
It was related by Muslim.
 

عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: " إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ يَقُولُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ: يَا ابْنَ آدَمَ، مَرِضْتُ فَلَمْ تَعُدْنِي(1) قَالَ: يَا رَبِّ كَيْفَ أَعُودُكَ وَأَنْتَ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ؟ قَالَ: أَمَا عَلِمْتَ أَنَّ عَبْدِي فُلَانًا مَرِضَ فَلَمْ تَعُدْهُ؟ أَمَا عَلِمْتَ أَنَّكَ لَوْ عُدْتَهُ لَوَجَدْتَنِي عِنْدَهُ. يَا ابْنَ آدَمَ: اسْتَطْعَمْتُكَ فَلَمْ تُطْعِمْنِي، قَالَ: يَا رَبِّ وَكَيْفَ أُطْعِمُكَ وَأَنْتَ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ؟ قَالَ: أَمَا عَلِمْتَ أَنَّهُ اسْتَطْعَمَكَ عَبْدِي فُلَانٌ فَلَمْ تُطْعِمْهُ؟ أَمَا عَلِمْتَ أَنَّكَ لَوْ أَطْعَمْتَهُ لَوَجَدْتَ ذَلِكَ عِنْدِي. يَا ابْنَ آدَمَ: اسْتَسْقَيْتُكَ فَلَمْ تَسْقِنِي، قَالَ: يَا رَبِّ كَيْفَ أَسْقِيكَ وَأَنْتَ رَبُّ الْعَالَمِينَ؟ قَالَ اسْتَسْقَاكَ عَبْدِي فُلَانٌ فَلَمْ تَسْقِهِ، أَمَا إِنَّكَ لَوْ سَقَيْتَهُ لَوَجَدْتَ ذَلِكَ عِنْدِي" 

رواه مسلم

 

Quote

https://sunnah.com/qudsi40:25
On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) said:

Allah (mighty and sublime be He) said: Whosoever shows enmity to someone devoted to Me, I shall be at war with him. My servant draws not near to Me with anything more loved by Me than the religious duties I have enjoined upon him, and My servant continues to draw near to Me with supererogatory works so that I shall love him. When I love him I am his hearing with which he hears, his seeing with which he sees, his hand with which he strikes and his foot with which he walks. Were he to ask [something] of Me, I would surely give it to him, and were he to ask Me for refuge, I would surely grant him it. I do not hesitate about anything as much as I hesitate about [seizing] the soul of My faithful servant: he hates death and I hate hurting him. It was related by al-Bukhari.
 

عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ قَالَ: قَالَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ: " إِنَّ اللَّهَ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ قَالَ: مَنْ عَادَى لِي وَلِيًّا، فَقَدْ آذَنْتُهُ بِالْحَرْبِ، وَمَا تَقَرَّبَ إِلَيَّ عَبْدِي بِشَيْءٍ أَحَبَّ إِلَيَّ مِمَّا افْتَرَضْتُ عَلَيْهِ، وَمَا يَزَالُ عَبْدِي يَتَقَرَّبُ إِلَيَّ بِالنَّوَافِلِ حَتَّى أُحِبَّهُ، فَإِذَا أَحْبَبْتُهُ، كُنْتُ سَمْعَهُ الَّذِي يَسْمَعُ بِهِ، وَبَصَرَهُ الَّذِي يُبْصِرُ بِهِ، وَيَدَهُ الَّتِي يَبْطِشُ بِهَا، وَرِجْلَهُ الَّتِي يَمْشِي بِهَا، وَإِنْ سَأَلَنِي لَأُعْطِيَنَّهُ، وَلَئِنْ اسْتَعَاذَنِي لَأُعِيذَنَّهُ، وَمَا تَرَدَّدْتُ عَنْ شَيْءٍ أَنَا فَاعِلُهُ تَرَدُّدِي عَنْ نَفْسِ عَبْدِي الْمُؤْمِنِ، يَكْرَهُ الْمَوْتَ وَأَنَا أَكْرَهُ مَسَاءَتَهُ" 

رواه البخاري

 

[Cool]

4 hours ago, 313_Waiter said:

And when I stat to love him, I become his hearing, his seeing, his hand, and his supporter.

Salam Brother!!

Thank you for sharing this profound hadith. 

Jazak Allah!!

Wassalam!!