What if we do indeed commit shirk without knowing?

[zizi_00]

The title is really all I want to ask. I know the famous Quran quotes that would refute the whole tawassul and istighta as shirk, which is that we don't perceive the 14 ma'soomin as dead but alive for they died as martyrs. But what about the hadiths and other clerics or just shias in general who also use the argument that the imams are all hearing and have the knowledge of the universe and are more than infallible humans (and all kinds of praise and making them sound they possess the highest ranks in the whole universe). I'm truelly asking this sincerely since this is a concept in Shia Islam that I need hard evidence for to practice it confidentially without falling into committing shirk or ghulu without knowing.

 

Cause I come from a very strict Shia family and whenever I bring this question to the table it always turns into chaos and tell me that I stress to much about this concept and even go as far as telling me that I can't be a true Shia if I don't believe in the ma'soomin having such abilities such as being all hearing whenever we talk about them during hussainiyas or whenever we make duas. My father is a cleric but his views on this topic are even more scary, he even goes as far as praying his 5 prayers by giving salams to the mas'umin even though we pray for Allah and only give Salam to the prophet during prayers. I fear for him mostly. The worst of it all is it's not just them, it's basically everyone in my community and I was surprised to see that I'm the only one who's that hesitant to practice Tawassul and this general belief in case I commit shirk or ghulu. I'm honestly done with the fact that my 'hysteria' as people would like to call it isn't being seen as something serious since we all know that shirk and ghulu (and even  bidah) are the worst type of sin one can commit, and the worst case being that it can easily be committed if a person has been doing it without realizing it or is too ignorant to realize it is. I refuse to fall in to that sin and I'm know that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the only one who knows how much I fear to fall for that trap.

I know there are already many threads about this topic but end with a satisfying answer and are just members arguing with each other. So I thought to myself; I need to make this thread for my own good if I truelly want to practice my faith better and to become a mu'mina and not die and be (eternally) punished for it in the hereafter after trying so hard to please Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by following the ahlulbayt.

[zizi_00]

3 minutes ago, zizi_00 said:

I know there are already many threads about this topic but end with a satisfying answer and are just members arguing with each other.

Correction: but *don't* end with a satisfying answer

[Abu Nur]

1 hour ago, zizi_00 said:

The title is really all I want to ask. I know the famous Quran quotes that would refute the whole tawassul and istighta as shirk, which is that we don't perceive the 14 ma'soomin as dead but alive for they died as martyrs. But what about the hadiths and other clerics or just shias in general who also use the argument that the imams are all hearing and have the knowledge of the universe and are more than infallible humans (and all kinds of praise and making them sound they possess the highest ranks in the whole universe). I'm truelly asking this sincerely since this is a concept in Shia Islam that I need hard evidence for to practice it confidentially without falling into committing shirk or ghulu without knowing.

 

Cause I come from a very strict Shia family and whenever I bring this question to the table it always turns into chaos and tell me that I stress to much about this concept and even go as far as telling me that I can't be a true Shia if I don't believe in the ma'soomin having such abilities such as being all hearing whenever we talk about them during hussainiyas or whenever we make duas. My father is a cleric but his views on this topic are even more scary, he even goes as far as praying his 5 prayers by giving salams to the mas'umin even though we pray for Allah and only give Salam to the prophet during prayers. I fear for him mostly. The worst of it all is it's not just them, it's basically everyone in my community and I was surprised to see that I'm the only one who's that hesitant to practice Tawassul and this general belief in case I commit shirk or ghulu. I'm honestly done with the fact that my 'hysteria' as people would like to call it isn't being seen as something serious since we all know that shirk and ghulu (and even  bidah) are the worst type of sin one can commit, and the worst case being that it can easily be committed if a person has been doing it without realizing it or is too ignorant to realize it is. I refuse to fall in to that sin and I'm know that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the only one who knows how much I fear to fall for that trap.

I know there are already many threads about this topic but end with a satisfying answer and are just members arguing with each other. So I thought to myself; I need to make this thread for my own good if I truelly want to practice my faith better and to become a mu'mina and not die and be (eternally) punished for it in the hereafter after trying so hard to please Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by following the ahlulbayt.

Sincerity is the most important thing in Islam. To be sincere we can only worship Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) alone and ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) alone and believe that only Allah response the dua alone and only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) who is the causes of all thing. Even thanking a person thinking that it is the person who did you favor is shirk. 

Now, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says:

If, when they had wronged themselves, they had come to you, and asked forgiveness from God, and the Messenger had asked forgiveness for them, they would have found God Relenting, Merciful.

— Al-Qur'an, Surah an-Nisa, 4:64

Is the following dua a shirk? 

O Allah, we seek your forgiveness and we also ask you to inform your Prophet Muhammad (saws) to seek forgiveness for us. 

This goes according the Qur'an. I don't see any shirk on this. 

Can they be informed our duas? Yes, for example our salam and blessings are informed to the them (salawat) . They will response to our salam and blessings by seeking forgiveness to us. 

We have narrations that says that they can hear our call in near their shrine. If you believe in this then calling them will go back previous point where they can ask God our forgiveness after them hearing the caller in near their grave. 

Edited April 13, 2023 by Abu Nur

[Abu Nur]

I updated my post. 

[Abu Nur]

But if you want to know what shirk is the most dangerous and that what we do often without us realizing it is exactly thinking and acting that things are happening without God being the real cause. For example, we may think that it is our own effort that we get good number in exam or all that paycheck is because of our own effort. Or thinking that if it was x then y will not happen when actually everything will be according Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) will. 

Another shirk is Riya' where we could do all these worship acts to either to our own satifaction or to show off and please other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protect us from all of this.

Edited April 13, 2023 by Abu Nur

[Ashvazdanghe]

2 hours ago, zizi_00 said:

My father is a cleric but his views on this topic are even more scary, he even goes as far as praying his 5 prayers by giving salams to the mas'umin even though we pray for Allah and only give Salam to the prophet during prayers.

Salam sayin Salam at end of prayer is three parts which two parts of sending Salam to prophet Muhammad (pbu) & sending Salam to righteous people is Mustahab so  therefore  adding name of  the mas'umin to second part as righteous people these  has not any problem which only third part of saying Salam is oblagatory for ending the prayer.

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/سلام_(نماز)

https://portal.anhar.ir/node/3207/?ref=sbttl#gsc.tab=0

 

[zizi_00]

1 hour ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam sayin Salam at end of prayer is three parts which two parts of sending Salam to prophet Muhammad (pbu) & sending Salam to righteous people is Mustahab so  therefore  adding name of  the mas'umin to second part as righteous people these  has not any problem which only third part of saying Salam is oblagatory for ending the prayer.

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/سلام_(نماز)

https://portal.anhar.ir/node/3207/?ref=sbttl#gsc.tab=0

 

I guess that's possible, but what about naming the prayers after the ahlulbayt though? Cause he seems to have completely abandoned the names fajr, dhur, ase maghrib and Isha and instead says salat Al Fatima, salat Al Hussain etc.

[PureExistence1]

@zizi_00salaam, i can understand your hesitancy and discomfort. 

I was listening to a speech the other night and the molauna said we should say our salaats to please imam mahdi(عليه السلام) and I was really taken aback by hearing that...maybe he meant it in some other way and it just came out weird, but i thought salaat should only be with the intention to please Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Of course our Imam is happy if we do it, but the PRIMARY reason should be Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

At the moment, im feeling uncomfortable about what i heard and where the molaunas head is at.

[Ashvazdanghe]

3 hours ago, zizi_00 said:

I guess that's possible, but what about naming the prayers after the ahlulbayt though? Cause he seems to have completely abandoned the names fajr, dhur, ase maghrib and Isha and instead says salat Al Fatima, salat Al Hussain etc.

Salam there are two types which there are some Mustahab  prayers which have been accustomed to infallibles which is available in books likewise Mafati Al Jinan also there are some narration which Namz of Maghrib is three rakat because of birth of lady Fatima (sa)

The third rakat of Maghrib prayer is thanksgiving for the presence of Fatima Zahra, peace be upon her

Quote

She was born to his noble mother during Maghrib prayer and entered this mortal world. At this time, the happy news of the birth of that great light was given to the Prophet, and Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his progeny, added one rak'at to the Maghrib prayer in gratitude for the arrival of Fatima, and after that, three rak'ats of the Maghrib prayer became obligatory for all Muslims. The first two rak'ahs were made obligatory by Allah Almighty and the Prophet added one rak'ah to the Maghrib prayer out of gratitude for the  birth of the blessingof  universe, and these three rak'ahs do not become two rak'ahs when traveling. Contrary to the four rak'at prayers that must be recited brokenly. (10)

10. لوامع صاحبقرانى (شرح الفقیه/ فارسی) - محمد تقی المجلسی ( الأول ) - ج 5 - ص 62 – 63،و الحدائق الناضرة - المحقق البحرانی - ج 6 - ص 58 – 59 و ذکرى الشیعة فی أحکام الشریعة - الشهید الأول - ج 2 - ص 312)

https://snn.ir/fa/news/237049/نماز-مغرب-به-شکرانه-ولادت-حضرت-زهراس-سه-رکعتی-شد-ماجرای-نجات-ام‌ایمن-با-واسطه-قرار-دادن-فاطمه-س

[zizi_00]

18 hours ago, PureExistence1 said:

@zizi_00salaam, i can understand your hesitancy and discomfort. 

I was listening to a speech the other night and the molauna said we should say our salaats to please imam mahdi(عليه السلام) and I was really taken aback by hearing that...maybe he meant it in some other way and it just came out weird, but i thought salaat should only be with the intention to please Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Of course our Imam is happy if we do it, but the PRIMARY reason should be Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

At the moment, im feeling uncomfortable about what i heard and where the molaunas head is at.

But see, giving salams to imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام)) makes a bit more sense since he's in occultation by the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and is compared to the previous imams alive, plus he's the one who will show up before the day of judgement. So that's not shirk or anything blasphemous, right? 

[YUSHA_EGWA]

Yes even though imam mehdi will be pleased that we are praying instead of doing something haram it doesn’t mean our prayers should be for the imam that’s shirk. We pray only to Allah not to the imams. We give our salaams but we don’t give our prayers.

[AbdusSibtayn]

On 4/12/2023 at 8:46 PM, zizi_00 said:

The title is really all I want to ask. I know the famous Quran quotes that would refute the whole tawassul and istighta as shirk, which is that we don't perceive the 14 ma'soomin as dead but alive for they died as martyrs. But what about the hadiths and other clerics or just shias in general who also use the argument that the imams are all hearing and have the knowledge of the universe and are more than infallible humans (and all kinds of praise and making them sound they possess the highest ranks in the whole universe). I'm truelly asking this sincerely since this is a concept in Shia Islam that I need hard evidence for to practice it confidentially without falling into committing shirk or ghulu without knowing.

 

Cause I come from a very strict Shia family and whenever I bring this question to the table it always turns into chaos and tell me that I stress to much about this concept and even go as far as telling me that I can't be a true Shia if I don't believe in the ma'soomin having such abilities such as being all hearing whenever we talk about them during hussainiyas or whenever we make duas. My father is a cleric but his views on this topic are even more scary, he even goes as far as praying his 5 prayers by giving salams to the mas'umin even though we pray for Allah and only give Salam to the prophet during prayers. I fear for him mostly. The worst of it all is it's not just them, it's basically everyone in my community and I was surprised to see that I'm the only one who's that hesitant to practice Tawassul and this general belief in case I commit shirk or ghulu. I'm honestly done with the fact that my 'hysteria' as people would like to call it isn't being seen as something serious since we all know that shirk and ghulu (and even  bidah) are the worst type of sin one can commit, and the worst case being that it can easily be committed if a person has been doing it without realizing it or is too ignorant to realize it is. I refuse to fall in to that sin and I'm know that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the only one who knows how much I fear to fall for that trap.

I know there are already many threads about this topic but end with a satisfying answer and are just members arguing with each other. So I thought to myself; I need to make this thread for my own good if I truelly want to practice my faith better and to become a mu'mina and not die and be (eternally) punished for it in the hereafter after trying so hard to please Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by following the ahlulbayt.

There's nothing wrong with your concern for not falling into deviance. It's not like you are rejecting tawassul. Let ignorant people do as they please if they don't listen to you. Don't succumb to the herd mentality pressure. 

On 4/13/2023 at 3:07 AM, PureExistence1 said:

@zizi_00salaam, i can understand your hesitancy and discomfort. 

I was listening to a speech the other night and the molauna said we should say our salaats to please imam mahdi(عليه السلام) and I was really taken aback by hearing that...maybe he meant it in some other way and it just came out weird, but i thought salaat should only be with the intention to please Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Of course our Imam is happy if we do it, but the PRIMARY reason should be Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

At the moment, im feeling uncomfortable about what i heard and where the molaunas head is at.

Unfortunately this is the extent of rot in the community. You see [certain popular speakers] who are more interested in theatrics and rhetoric to amuse the sheeple Shi'a than discharging their actual pastoral obligations, putting people's akhirah in danger. 

That 'discomfort' you feel is hundred percent correct and it is basically your fitrah kicking in, which, unlike these [speakers], happens to be on tawheed. 

The degree of deviance these people normalize in the name of tawassul is insane. 

Anyone who listens to an odd speech by these [speakers] and then opens up a book by our classical scholars will get the jump scare of his/her life seeing how much these [people] have distorted the religion. 

On 4/13/2023 at 9:37 PM, zizi_00 said:

But see, giving salams to imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام)) makes a bit more sense since he's in occultation by the will of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and is compared to the previous imams alive, plus he's the one who will show up before the day of judgement. So that's not shirk or anything blasphemous, right? 

Salams to any of the ma'sumeen (ams) or the awliya (rh) after prayers is fine as in our belief they are all alive (spiritually, not physically). In this matter there is no distinction between Sahib al-Asr (aj) Or the preceding Imams (ams). The problem arises when you start directing your prayers to them, like the other posters have mentioned above. 

[Abu_Zahra]

As salamu alaikum 

You can not go wrong by supplicating to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only and avoiding istighatha altogether. 

Despite the weak arguments that people try to provide for istighatha they will never be able to prove that supplicating to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is problematic because this is exactly the sunnah of the Quran and the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام).

Some of the common arguments in favor of istighatha have been refuted in this video:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mY-TvsxFaCo&pp=ygUJYWwgaXNsYWFo

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

30 minutes ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Despite the weak arguments that people try to provide for istighatha they will never be able to prove that supplicating to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is problematic because this is exactly the sunnah of the Quran and the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام).

Salam there is no differnce between istighatha & Tawassul except that Istightha is doing Tawassul in dire situation which people do Tawassul in both of normal & hardship but on the other hand Istightha will be done in hardship which it is accepted by both of Shias & Sunnis except Wahabis (or prople who act likewise Wahabis)

Quote

Conceptology

Istighatha means pleading and asking for help in a difficult and intense state.[1] Its difference with dua is that dua includes any type of reading, but istighatah is accompanied by a cry and seeking help. Is; But tavassul includes in two situations of difficulty and ease .[3] Some believe that supplication, tavassul and supplication are not different from each other.[4]

 

Quote

Types of Istighatha

Istighatha can be divided into supplication to Allah and supplication to other than Allah. Salafis and Wahhabis, unlike other Muslims, consider some forms of Istighatha to other than Allah to be forbidden and polytheistic. which thay only accepts it , from a living and present person, the rest of the Istighathas are considered haram and polytheistic. [6] Shia and Sunni scholars have spoken about its permissibility. They believe that tradition of the Prophets, righteous people and Muslims has been  to do it.[7]

 

Istightha  to Allah

Mughith is one of the names of Allahthat is mentioned in Joshan Kabir's prayer, paragraph 59: یاغیاث من لا غیاث له(O helper of the one who has not help) [8] and in some prayers with the phrase "Yaghiath al-Mustaghithinیاغیاث المستغیثین ; O helper of those who don't has help." It is mentioned. [9] Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) called Allah by this name on the day of Ashura. [10] It is also mentioned in the Qur'an, the plea of Mujahideen [11] and the plea of parents who believe in Allah to guide their children. [12] A tradition of Imam Sadiq has also said: "Allah can helps you and take you to refuge, gives you shelter where there is no refuge." [13]

Imam Baqir ((عليه السلام).) said: "Whenever you have seen an Imam from the family of Muhammad absent, you will not see him, so seek help from Allah Almighty."[14]

Isthightha  to other than Allah

Isthightha to other than Allah means asking for help from humans. To prove the permissibility of Isthightha to other than Allah, some cite a verse from the Qur'an in which one of the followers of Prophet Moses ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) asked him for help against the injustice that had been done to him [15] [note 2] or that Imam Hussain ( (A) He pleaded on the day of Ashura.[16]

The relationship between the Istightha and the Welayat Takvini

There is a dispute between Wahhabis and other Muslims regarding the permissibility of  Istightha  to the prophets or guardians of Allah's order to obtain a need that is in some way within the scope of Allah's power. Wahhabis consider it as polytheism [note 3] and other Muslims believe that it is permissible if the asking person has an independent view of the infallibles(عليه السلام), in the sense that he believes that Allah created them and entrusted all the affairs of mankind to them. According to Shia and Sunni scholars, this act is shirk. [21] However, it is not shirk if he  does not have an independent view of them. It means that the petitioner believes that the possessions of Allah's guardian are with Allah's power and his permission. That is, Allah has given some servants the guardianship of creation and permission to occupy parts of the world of creation. Like Jesus' ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) possessions in creating a bird, healing the sick and raising the dead[22] and Asif bin Barkhia's possession in bringing the throne of Balqis in one moment.[23]

Requesting needs from Allah's guardian during life and death independently is shirk . [24] However, asking Allah's guardians and asking for needs during life and death with Allah's permission is not considered shirk by Islamic scholars. With the permission of Almighty Allah, they can be cryers and be addressed as "Ghiyath al-Mustaghithin"«غياث المستغيثين». In a narration, the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) introduced Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) with attributes such as the master of the believers and the successor of the Lord of the worlds, as well as "Ghyath al-Mustaghithin"«غياث المستغيثين». [26] [Note 4] Also, in one of the honors realized by Amir al-Mu'minin ((عليه السلام).), the unseen messenger addressed him as "Ya Ghiyath al-Mustaghithin"«غياث المستغيثين». [27]

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/استغاثه

https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/fa72281

https://fa.wikifeqh.ir/استغاثه_(دیدگاه_وهابیت)

 

[Abu_Zahra]

2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam there is no differnce between istighatha & Tawassul except that Istightha is doing Tawassul in dire situation which people do Tawassul in both of normal & hardship but on the other hand Istightha will be done in hardship which it is accepted by both of Shias & Sunnis except Wahabis (or prople who act likewise Wahabis)

The question is not what the people do, but rather what did the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and aimmah (عليه السلام) teach. 

[Abu Nur]

In Dua Abu Hamza Thumali it says:

All praise is for God whom I call upon with my needs whenever I wish, and I entrust Him with my secrets without an intercessor, and He grants me my wishes. All praise is for God whom I do not plead to anyone but Him, for if I pleaded to others, they would not grant me.

- Is this not proof that only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is asked for our needs. 

I was watching one video about our Ulema and he beautifully said that He only ask and rely to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) alone because everyone else are needy and they too are seeking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) help for their need. 

Edited April 15, 2023 by Abu Nur

[Abu Nur]

In this following verse the companions did istigatha directly to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and then He sended Angels to help. 

˹Remember˺ when you cried out to your Lord for help, He answered, “I will reinforce you with a thousand angels—followed by many others.”1

- Why they did not do isthighata directly to Angels for help? 

This literally show us that we should actually do Istigatha to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and then He will help us. 

[Guest Pure Tawheed]

38 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

In this following verse the companions did istigatha directly to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and then He sended Angels to help. 

˹Remember˺ when you cried out to your Lord for help, He answered, “I will reinforce you with a thousand angels—followed by many others.”1

- Why they did not do isthighata directly to Angels for help? 

This literally show us that we should actually do Istigatha to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and then He will help us. 

Salam,

Sayed Mahdi Moderrasi in a recent lecture said , we can ask our dad to help us find a wife, why can't we ask Hazrat Abbas or Qasim/Bibi Sakina etc

This is what people don't understand. Dua is your call to the ultimate controller of the universe, who has control over every atom of the universe, who knows you more than any created being can ever know you, and has full knowledge over whether to grant your supplication or not. He knows how sinful you are and has created you to worship him, build a relationship with him, one of the foremost ways is completely relying on him and calling to him and communicating constantly with him. 

You seek material help using the law of physics, but you then turn to the creator of the law of physics and seek ultimate help from him - who even allows actions to take place. You also do this to form a relationship with you, and your creator.

While he can help you via angels, your parents, a random person, even an insect, and while you can use the world and means of cause and effect to ask for help within the laws of physics, Dua is you turning away from this, and relying on the one above this all, the creator of this all.

How can any human being, who recites you alone we worship and you alone we seek help daily over a dozen times, early in the morning at noon and later, sunset and later, who is aware there is not a single authentic narration where the Imams or Prophets ever ask us to make Istigatha to them, and hundreds of authentic narrations where they command us to seek help from Allah alone and some of the most beautiful Duas for this purpose, then, allow us to be calling on Bibi Sakina for a husband, or asking Hazrat Abbas to forgive our sins and grant us sustenance?

Wake up , o people of reason. Wake up, before the hour and judgement, when scholars will abandon those that were their followers, when a mother giving birth will abandon the child she has given birth to, when it will be each soul for themselves, and many will lament, woe onto us! Had we but only used reason!

[Abu_Zahra]

Know that He Who owns the treasuries of the heavens and of the earth has permitted you to pray to Him and has promised you acceptance of the prayer. He has commanded you to beg from Him in order that He may give you and to seek His mercy in order that He may have mercy on you. He has not placed any thing between you and Him that may veil Him from you. He has not required you to get a mediator for you to Him, and if you err, He has not prevented you from repentance.

-Letter 31, Nahjul Balagha

[Guest Truth seeker]

Please watch videos of Syed Ali Hur Kamoonpuri on YouTube about this topic and many other which he explains as per the classical shia beliefs and authentic teachings. He aims to go back to the original beliefs n practices of Early shias/Shia’s of Ali as.

[Ashvazdanghe]

19 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

The question is not what the people do, but rather what did the prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and aimmah (عليه السلام) teach. 

Salam I have provided examples from prophet Muhammad (pbu) & aimmah (عليه السلام) which they have taught us way of Tawasssul & Istightha likewise Duas & prayers which have been recorded in Sahifa Sajadia or accustomed prayers to Imams in Mafatih al jinan .

 

2 hours ago, Guest Truth seeker said:

Please watch videos of Syed Ali Hur Kamoonpuri on YouTube about this topic and many other which he explains as per the classical shia beliefs and authentic teachings. He aims to go back to the original beliefs n practices of Early shias/Shia’s of Ali as.

He is just injecting Wahabi & Salafi teachings under guise of reforming in Shia Islam which such deviated people never could be successful in their way of turning Shia Islam into a copy cat from Salafism.

[Abu_Zahra]

3 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

He is just injecting Wahabi & Salafi teachings under guise of reforming in Shia Islam which such deviated people never could be successful in their way of turning Shia Islam into a copy cat from Salafism.

He brings his proof entirely from Shi'i sources. 

[Abu_Zahra]

4 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam I have provided examples from prophet Muhammad (pbu) & aimmah (عليه السلام) which they have taught us way of Tawasssul & Istightha likewise Duas & prayers which have been recorded in Sahifa Sajadia or accustomed prayers to Imams in Mafatih al jinan

Wa alaikum as salam 

There is not a single example of supplicating to ghairAllah in what you have brought forward. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

5 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Why they did not do isthighata directly to Angels for help? 

This literally show us that we should actually do Istigatha to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and then He will help us

nobody has done Istigatha to angels because it's taking partnership besides Allah which such thing in Shia supplications about Istigatha doesn't exist although archangels likewise Jibrail & Mikail & Isarfil have been praised in Nhjul Balagha & Sahifa Sajjadia but it doesn't mean praying to them which it's showing humblness to Allah for creation of them which according to holy Quran enmity with angels is equivalent to enmity with Allah which Jews have shown enmity with archangel Jibrail as their indirect enmity with Allah whivh in similar fashion Wahabis & Salafis have accused Shias to enmity with trustworthy archangel Jibrail.

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

3 minutes ago, Abu_Zahra said:

He brings his proof entirely from Shi'i sources. 

Some people likewise Burqa'i& another guy  have claimed same thing that they bring their accusation against Shias from Shi'i sources which their baseless claims have been refuted by Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) which your new favorit speaker mr Kamoonpuri just is following Burqa'i& another guy.

[Cool]

On 4/13/2023 at 6:46 AM, zizi_00 said:

I know the famous Quran quotes that would refute the whole tawassul and istighta as shirk,

Salam!

How can tawassul be shirk while Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is commanding us وابتغوا اليه الوسيلة?

How can istighatha be shirk while there are verses as well as logical reasoning which proves it right? 

A shia of Musa (عليه السلام) asked him help:

فَاسْتَغَاثَهُ الَّذِي مِنْ شِيعَتِهِ عَلَى الَّذِي مِنْ عَدُوِّهِ

28:15) and he who was of his party cried out to him for help against him who was of his enemies

Had this istighatha wrong, Musa (عليه السلام) would have told him to call Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for help instead of me. But instead of doing this, Prophet Musa (عليه السلام) helped him. 

So wouldn't it be strange that at one hand you believe that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is شافع المذنبين yet you don't consider him helpful in the forgiveness of your sins? 

How come your prayer "Allahumma behaqqe Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) wa ant al-Mehmood" become shirk? Companions of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) were used to go to him for seeking his help in the forgiveness of their sins, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never commanded them that I am not helpful for you, ask help directly from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). In fact a verse mentions this:

وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذْ ظَلَمُوا أَنْفُسَهُمْ جَاءُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُوا اللَّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُوا اللَّهَ تَوَّابًا رَحِيمًا

4:64) and had they, when they were unjust to themselves, come to you and asked forgiveness of Allah and the Messenger had (also) asked forgiveness for them, they would have found Allah Oft-returning (to mercy), Merciful.

Whatever the way you adopt in understanding the above verse, one thing is quite clear in that i.e., the forgiveness of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is made conditional in the above verse with the asking of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for their forgiveness. Means it could be possible that they would not reach  to divine mercy or become eligible for divine mercy unless Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) ask forgiveness for them from Lord Almighty. 

At another place, the same situation is mentioned again:

سَيَقُولُ لَكَ الْمُخَلَّفُونَ مِنَ الْأَعْرَابِ شَغَلَتْنَا أَمْوَالُنَا وَأَهْلُونَا فَاسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا

48:11) Those of the dwellers of the desert who were left behind will say to you: Our property and our families kept us busy, so ask forgiveness for us.

What a profound verse this is!! So Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) informed the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) first that these people are saying that which is not in their hearts and then commanded the Prophet to respond to them with the word "Qul":

يَقُولُونَ بِأَلْسِنَتِهِمْ مَا لَيْسَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ ۚ قُلْ فَمَنْ يَمْلِكُ لَكُمْ مِنَ اللَّهِ شَيْئًا إِنْ أَرَادَ بِكُمْ ضَرًّا أَوْ أَرَادَ بِكُمْ نَفْعًا ۚ بَلْ كَانَ اللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ خَبِيرًا

48:11) They say with their tongues what is not in their hearts. Say: Then who can control anything for you from Allah if He intends to do you harm or if He intends to do you good; nay, Allah is Aware of what you do:

Obviously Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) cannot undo anything willed by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), rather he is deputed to act upon the divine will. So Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never asked forgiveness for hypocrites as it has been made clear to him by Allah that whether you ask forgiveness for them multiple times, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not going to spare them:

سَوَاءٌ عَلَيْهِمْ أَسْتَغْفَرْتَ لَهُمْ أَمْ لَمْ تَسْتَغْفِرْ لَهُمْ لَنْ يَغْفِرَ اللَّهُ لَهُمْ

63:6) It is alike to them whether you beg forgiveness for them or do not beg forgiveness for them; Allah will never forgive them.

Interestingly, the previous verse mentions this:

وَإِذَا قِيلَ لَهُمْ تَعَالَوْا يَسْتَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ

63:5) And when it is said to them: Come, the Messenger of Allah will ask forgiveness for you

What they do after listening to this invitation is also mentioned in the same verse:

لَوَّوْا رُءُوسَهُمْ وَرَأَيْتَهُمْ يَصُدُّونَ وَهُمْ مُسْتَكْبِرُونَ

63:5) they turn back their heads and you may see them turning away while they are big with pride.

So would you like to behave in that manner? 

Another example of istighatha is present in chapter 12 where the brothers of Prophet Yusuf (عليه السلام) asking their father's help in forgiveness of their sins:

قَالُوا يَا أَبَانَا اسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا خَاطِئِينَ

12:97) They said: O our father! ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners.

Their father was a Prophet of Allah, instead of stopping them from committing this alleged shirk, he responded to them:

 قَالَ سَوْفَ أَسْتَغْفِرُ لَكُمْ رَبِّي ۖ إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ

12:98) He said: I will ask for you forgiveness from my Lord; surely He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

I can keep quoting verses after verses to show you that salah, sowm, hajj, zakat, khayraat, khums, Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Imams عليهم السلام  and even their love, are among the wasilah, they are the الباقيات الصالحات، and when you ask in your prayers "only You do we seek help", you must remember that the same God has commanded you to seek help from sabr & salah. 

On 4/13/2023 at 6:46 AM, zizi_00 said:

who also use the argument that the imams are all hearing and have the knowledge of the universe and are more than infallible humans (and all kinds of praise and making them sound they possess the highest ranks in the whole universe).

Do you think this a lie? 

Lets see just one verse first:

وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ ۚ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ ۚ مِلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ ۚ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ {78}

[Shakir 22:78] And strive hard in (the way of) Allah, (such) a striving a is due to Him; He has chosen you and has not laid upon you an hardship in religion; the faith of your father Ibrahim; He named you Muslims before and in this, that the Messenger may be a bearer of witness to you, and you may be bearers of witness to the people; therefore keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and hold fast by Allah; He is your Guardian; how excellent the Guardian and how excellent the Helper!

Each word of this verse mentioning nothing but their highest rank. So imagine how could be the Imam of your time be a witness over people? He (ajtf) is in occultation, so how be be a witness? & How can he be a witness over 8 billion human beings living on Earth right now? 

I hope you will not only start reciting Quran from now, but would also start pondering on each of the verse you recite. May Almighty Lord opens your breast and grant you abundance in knowledge. 

I have left some points as this post already become lengthy. 

Wassalam!!

[Abu_Zahra]

7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

nobody has done Istigatha to angels because it's taking partnership besides Allah

Looks like we have finally reached an agreement 

[Abu_Zahra]

7 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Some people likewise Burqa'i& another guy  have claimed same thing that they bring their accusation against Shias from Shi'i sources which their baseless claims have been refuted by Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) which your new favorit speaker mr Kamoonpuri just is following Burqa'i& another guy.

The sources and references are there for everyone to see. If you can refute them go ahead

[Zainuu]

On 4/13/2023 at 7:16 AM, zizi_00 said:

The title is really all I want to ask. I know the famous Quran quotes that would refute the whole tawassul and istighta as shirk, which is that we don't perceive the 14 ma'soomin as dead but alive for they died as martyrs. But what about the hadiths and other clerics or just shias in general who also use the argument that the imams are all hearing and have the knowledge of the universe and are more than infallible humans (and all kinds of praise and making them sound they possess the highest ranks in the whole universe). I'm truelly asking this sincerely since this is a concept in Shia Islam that I need hard evidence for to practice it confidentially without falling into committing shirk or ghulu without knowing.

 

Cause I come from a very strict Shia family and whenever I bring this question to the table it always turns into chaos and tell me that I stress to much about this concept and even go as far as telling me that I can't be a true Shia if I don't believe in the ma'soomin having such abilities such as being all hearing whenever we talk about them during hussainiyas or whenever we make duas. My father is a cleric but his views on this topic are even more scary, he even goes as far as praying his 5 prayers by giving salams to the mas'umin even though we pray for Allah and only give Salam to the prophet during prayers. I fear for him mostly. The worst of it all is it's not just them, it's basically everyone in my community and I was surprised to see that I'm the only one who's that hesitant to practice Tawassul and this general belief in case I commit shirk or ghulu. I'm honestly done with the fact that my 'hysteria' as people would like to call it isn't being seen as something serious since we all know that shirk and ghulu (and even  bidah) are the worst type of sin one can commit, and the worst case being that it can easily be committed if a person has been doing it without realizing it or is too ignorant to realize it is. I refuse to fall in to that sin and I'm know that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is the only one who knows how much I fear to fall for that trap.

I know there are already many threads about this topic but end with a satisfying answer and are just members arguing with each other. So I thought to myself; I need to make this thread for my own good if I truelly want to practice my faith better and to become a mu'mina and not die and be (eternally) punished for it in the hereafter after trying so hard to please Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) by following the ahlulbayt.

Answer to your questions are their in Quran. Read the book of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) you will get the answer.

 

I will share just a few verses but research must be done from your side. I can just say that you need nothing to understand tawassul but Quran. Not even the hadith.

1. Ayat ul Kursi: have you memorised it. Ayat 255 says: Man zal lazi yashfahu indahu illa be izneh.

Who is he that can intercede with Him but by his permission?

Contemplate. You can even take into account verse 254 that says :

O you who believe! spend out of what We have given you before the day comes in which there is no bargaining, neither any friendship nor intercession, and the unbelievers-- they are the unjust.

2. Now lets move ahead. Verse 5:35.

 

What do you understand through the first point and second point verses? 

Moving further with some practical steps:

1. Surah Yusuf verse 97 is a very clear practical example with pure context.

2. Surah Ibrahim verse 35-41

3. Surah An Nahl verse 69

4. Surah Bani Israel verse 79

Comtemplate on these as well and I am one for further discussion if needed.

Now, the last segment specifically for infallibles:

1. Surah An Nahl verses 84,89

2. 16:43

3. 13:43

4. 14:27

5. 17:79

6. 11:17

7. 9:111-112

8. 8: 30

9. 8:75

10. 8:17

Combine all those verses together. 

 

Also, combine 14:1-5 with 2:257.

The conclusion that I reached was interested. The positive point will be that all you referred was the Quran so you will be clear on the day of judgement.

You also do your research. I have tried to provide the content. Can ask anything related to this. I will try to answer inshallah, beiznillah.