Ayatollah Sayed Murtadha Qazwini believes in changed Quran

[SoRoUsH]

Much has been said already. I'll just add one comment, which can be helpful. 

Our Imams, sometimes, when they are reading a verse they add a word or two as part of the verse. This, however, is likely to help the inquirer understand the proper tawil and meaning of the verse; it doesn't necessarily mean that these words are missing or that there has been tahreef. 

There's however one example, with multiple supportive authentic narrations, that I can think of, in which the Imam (عليه السلام) points to a verse where a letter (ا) was removed from a word, by mistake, during transcription.

Edited April 27 by SoRoUsH

[matrix]

Wasn't there a report in Tafsir al-Qummi that, during the caliphate of Uthman, some companions refused to hand over their copies of the Qur'an to Uthman? Their copies contained additional and alternative readings that ended up being omitted from the final, standardized version that Uthman distributed.

I don't know how true this account is though.

[علوي]

23 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

There's however one example, with multiple supportive authentic narrations, that I can think of, in which the Imam (عليه السلام) points to a verse where a letter (ا) was removed from a word, by mistake, during transcription.

Interesting. Do you have the hadeeth?

[SoRoUsH]

6 hours ago, علوي said:

Interesting. Do you have the hadeeth?

Here's one of the narrations:

عَلِيُّ بْنُ إِبْرَاهِيمَ عَنْ أَبِيهِ عَنِ اِبْنِ أَبِي عُمَيْرٍ عَنْ حَمَّادِ بْنِ عُثْمَانَ قَالَ: تَلَوْتُ عِنْدَ أَبِي عَبْدِ اَللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ « ذَوٰا عَدْلٍ مِنْكُمْ »(5:95) فَقَالَ ذُو عَدلٍ مِنْكُمْ هَذَا مِمَّا أَخْطَأَتْ فِيهِ اَلْكُتَّابُ . 

الکافي ج ۸، ص ۲۰۵

 

I must add, after years and years of reading through the narrations this is the only narration, with its supportive (authentic) derivatives, that I have found about issues in the book. 

This minor issue, the addition of an extra letter, does change the meaning and it does affect matters of fiqh. 

 

[Ethics]

With due respect, even if there was tens of sahih hadiths, the simple fact that the quran is absolutely decisive, not allegorical, when it comes to the perfection of the quran. It easily counters any hadith.  It is impossible the quran is missing anything, even a letter at that.

[SoRoUsH]

13 minutes ago, Ethics said:

With due respect, even if there was tens of sahih hadiths, the simple fact that the quran is absolutely decisive, not allegorical, when it comes to the perfection of the quran. It easily counters any hadith.  It is impossible the quran is missing anything, even a letter at that.

 

Sure brother. I'm not going to argue for or against it. All I say is that this narration is present and it's supported by other narrations with other isnad, all pointing to the same issue. 

Whether you choose to be consistent in your epistemic approach to the narrations, that's up to you 

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 4/28/2023 at 2:39 AM, matrix said:

Wasn't there a report in Tafsir al-Qummi that, during the caliphate of Uthman, some companions refused to hand over their copies of the Qur'an to Uthman? Their copies contained additional and alternative readings that ended up being omitted from the final, standardized version that Uthman distributed.

I don't know how true this account is though.

Salam Imam Ali(عليه السلام) has written most complete version of holy Quran which it has contained all details likewise reason of each revelation & palce  & time of it which three caliphs including Uthman have refused to accept it as standard version of holy Quran.

[Zainuu]

On 4/24/2023 at 4:31 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I could say the same,

when ahadtih declare tahreef, are you and our scholars more knowledablge than Ahlebait (عليه السلام) about Quran and know its interpretation more than Ahlebait (عليه السلام)?

When Ahlebait (عليه السلام) clearly has said in ahadtih that tahreef has occured, who are you and your scholars to interpret some verses today, in a certain way, again majority of hadiths, and make up something new. !?

You know, interpreting the book of Allah, in your opinion, is haram according to shias, so make sure to bring some hadiths as proof in commentary of the verses you've quoted.
Otherwise, you have no proof, except for your custom taweel of the Quran which is haram and is not Hujjah for anyone.

Being a Reminder, Guidance, Divine Sign of Allah, Truth has nothing to do with argument of tehreef as we only believe in naqs, that things have been taken out of Quran and its context as well. As you know that too.

You have to refer back to waris e Quran to understand verses, just following the book alone is misguidance. Even wahabi ulima are known to have said anyone who demands proof from Quran alone is zindeeq, Quran alone isn't sufficient.

Still, its considered as Guidance, Truth and we believe in it for sure, then why you have issues when hadiths of tehreef are bought into discussion?

As for the verse inna nahnu nazalna Al-zikr wa inna lahu la hafizun, there is no signle hadith in the world that says it means no tehreef can occur in Quran. If there is, then bring one. 
If you say, verse is clear, i'd argue its ambigious and will come up with plenty of tafaseer from arabic scholars where they argued that in wa inna lahu la hafizun , lahu refers to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). or that Al-Zikr doesn't mean Quran, it refers to Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).

If one of those translations has become famous in English, doesn't mean other opinions are wrong. Truth is, the verse is ambigious and doesn't prove your point. 

See brother. No offence but Surah Ale Imran verse number 7:

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

You are basically trying to call a clear verses ambiguous and trying to ignore it so that the listener jumps ahead on to rivayaat without giving importance to the quranic proofs.

One claim you raised upon me and my scholars of daring to interpret verses when 'ahlulbayt' have said (according to you) that quran is distorted. Let me answer that:

Where are you bringing these ahadith from? Aren't you believing blindly upon scholars for that.

You said interpreting quran requires Ahadith. Subhanallah! 

So, basically, Quran itself is not a hujjat because we cannot believe or act on it without a separate depedency which is hadith. Also, not mentioning that these hadith are not coming directly from Aimma (عليه السلام) but rather through chains and narrators and scholars (may be they added their own interpretation, maybe not, some were kazzab, some were not etc). 

So, finally neither Quran, nor ahlulbait, according to your theory, we take deen from scholars. 

So, hadith as Thaqalayn has no importance. Will of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and the holy prophet (S) has no importance. Even if these are a ahadith but what value they serve because they are guiding us towards a 'distorted book' according to you.

I respectfully disagree with all this crap.

Further, you said that in shiism interpreting Quran without hadith is invalid but that's not true. Their are 3 ways to interpret the Quran:

1. Through aql.

2. Through naql (Ahadith) example: Tafsir al Qummi.

3. Tafsir of Quran through Quran. (Quran ba quran): interpreting the ambiguous verses of Quran through its clear verses. Because verses of Quran are divided in 2 categories. They are ambiguous or clear as per ale Imran verse 7.

In fact, your claim that Verse 10 of Surah Al Hijr is ambiguous is itself a qias and your own interpretation which according to you is incorrect.

[Zainuu]

Let me further add to what I already said. Considering Quran to be distorted  based on ahadith is itself an incorrect methodology.

Because as per Hadith as Thaqalayn (which is a fundamental fact). Quran is a greater thiql among Thaqalayn (2 weighty things).

So, can call every Hadith in the name of ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) that goes against Quran to be weak and rejected. But we must never even try this in dreams to call Quran as distorted based on ahadith.

[anzurna]

Salam brothers and sisters,

I don't think it was/is ever possible to alter the Quran because firstly, Allah has taken guarantee against any alteration, secondly, remember - we have 12 Imams s.a. after Prophet Mohammad's (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) demise and One living Imam s.a. still in occultation, to correct any alteration, if any enemy of Islam ever try to do it.

[Eddie Mecca]

On 4/29/2023 at 3:43 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Uthman have refused to accept it as standard version of holy Quran.

Did Ali (peace be upon him) attempt to offer his codex to the masses? Are you sure about this? My understanding is he wrote it (i.e. Qurʾān) in secret/seclusion and he wrote it in chronological order and with his own blessed commentary and this copy got passed down from father to son, father to son etc...this was during the first six months after the Prophet's death...and al-Qāʾim Āl Muḥammad (peace be upon him) will produce it when he makes his reappearance open to the world...it will be one of his many bona fide proofs of his claim to divine authority.

Edited May 22 by Eddie Mecca

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 5/22/2023 at 7:40 AM, Zainuu said:

See brother. No offence but Surah Ale Imran verse number 7:

He it is Who has revealed the Book to you; some of its verses are decisive, they are the basis of the Book, and others are allegorical; then as for those in whose hearts there is perversity they follow the part of it which is allegorical, seeking to mislead and seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. but none knows its interpretation except Allah, and those who are firmly rooted in knowledge say: We believe in it, it is all from our Lord; and none do mind except those having understanding.

brother, lets make one thing clear, i testify that The Quran is word of Allah and is free from any additions.
Regarding Tehreef, its not really a belief, its something that we have alot of evidence for in ahadith and no verse in Quran Al-Kareem says the book can't be changed.

In Above verse, it is mentioned that some people go astray by giving it their own interpretation. Lets just keep this in mind and move on to next part of your post, so we'd know who is making up his own interpretation (not intentionally however, by mistake)

On 5/22/2023 at 7:40 AM, Zainuu said:

You are basically trying to call a clear verses ambiguous and trying to ignore it so that the listener jumps ahead on to rivayaat without giving importance to the quranic proofs.

Please let everyone know, which clear vut verse, i said was ambiguous?

Instead, you present, very general verses, that can have various meanings and you interpret them without any hadith or nass to justify your stance on tehreef.

Again, no clear verse, is present that says Quran can't be distorted. All verses, you present, require a very specific interpretation just by aql to justify your stance on tehreef and thats against plenty of hadiths we have. Thats the point. Your interpretation, goes against words of Waris Al-Quran Aima Tahereen (عليه السلام).

Thats what verse of Ale imran 7 refers to, its clear who's seeking his own interpretation because thats against the view of Ahl-Al-Zikr.

On 5/22/2023 at 7:40 AM, Zainuu said:

One claim you raised upon me and my scholars of daring to interpret verses when 'ahlulbayt' have said (according to you) that quran is distorted. Let me answer that:

Where are you bringing these ahadith from? Aren't you believing blindly upon scholars for that.

You said interpreting quran requires Ahadith. Subhanallah!

 

On 5/22/2023 at 7:40 AM, Zainuu said:

Further, you said that in shiism interpreting Quran without hadith is invalid but that's not true. Their are 3 ways to interpret the Quran:

1. Through aql.

2. Through naql (Ahadith) example: Tafsir al Qummi.

3. Tafsir of Quran through Quran. (Quran ba quran): interpreting the ambiguous verses of Quran through its clear verses. Because verses of Quran are divided in 2 categories. They are ambiguous or clear as per ale Imran verse 7.

First of all, when you, blindly adhere to the opinions of scholars, you can't question me for blindly accepting hadiths from scholars and following them.

Thats a contradiction, something thats halal and you do nearly as an obligation (taqlid) you can't question me even if i was blindly following scholars in accepting hadiths because what you do is worse. You follow, without asking them for evidence, i at least try to see evidence then follow.

Secondly, please refer to the definition of taqlid and that will answer your question if i'm blindly following scholars or not.

You know what blind following is? Its accepting someones opinion, without demanding evidence. When evidence is clear, it is no longer blind following aka taqlid.

Thats similar to how your schools have defined taqlid. So don't throw stuff at me that contradicts your own mazhab and your own scholars.

now lets come to the next part

I'd say, you are mistaken when it comes to interpretation stuff, now i'm not an expert, but its very clear in shia mazhab,

that one who interprets book of Allah by his opinion, is out of the folds of Islam.

By Aql, you can understand the verse, not interpret them because that's against nass.

On 5/22/2023 at 7:40 AM, Zainuu said:

So, basically, Quran itself is not a hujjat because we cannot believe or act on it without a separate depedency which is hadith. Also, not mentioning that these hadith are not coming directly from Aimma (عليه السلام) but rather through chains and narrators and scholars (may be they added their own interpretation, maybe not, some were kazzab, some were not etc). 

So, finally neither Quran, nor ahlulbait, according to your theory, we take deen from scholars.

you're again throwing stuff at me that i don't believe in nor i said anything like that.

Quran and Ahlebait both together are Hujjah and can't be separated from each other, then one who follows Either of two is misguided, we must adhere to both to be on the right path. Thats what hadith of thaqalayn says.

And again, you are the one, who do taliqd (aka blindly following scholars) not me.

[Sabrejet]

I am personally inclined towards Ayatollah al Khoei's in this matter, but I have listened to the other side's arguments summarized by Allahyari.

If I'm not mistaken, @Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi, he doesn't believe actually believe that the Quran has tahreef, but that the copies available since Uthman's time till today have missing words or verses, correct? And that the Quran is preserved in the sense that the Mushaf of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) is present with Imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام))?

I think he also believes that the copies we have today have no fabrications or interpolations, i.e. it is the pure Word of Allah. Is it so?

[Guest Window]

The ayatollah is wrong. There is only one “correct” Quran and that is the *12ver* Shia Quran. 

[Ethics]

This is one of the greatest and most rational approaches I have ever read in terms of the Quran. Have yet to see anyone come close to countering this..

Introduction

In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate, this is an explanation for the people, and guidance and exhortation for the God-fearing.

Synopsis: Analytical discussion of Qur'anic sciences and of the importance of the Qur'an; its universal and legal explanations; methods and principles of its exegesis; aspects of its miraculous nature and its distinctiveness; its various readings and its protection from omission and alteration.

 

Foreword

In the Name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate

Praise be to God, who revealed to His servant [Muhammad (S)] the Book, and has not placed therein any crookedness. [But He has made it] straight to give warning of stem punishment from Him, and to bring to the believers who do good works the news that theirs will be a fair reward.

Wherein they will abide forever [Qur’an18:1-3].

This is a Book the revelations whereof are perfected and then expounded.

[It comes] from One Wise, Informed [Qur’an 11:1].

Falsehood cannot come at it from before it or behind it.

[It is] a revelation from the Wise, the Owner of Praise [Qur’an 41:42].

This is the Book whereof there is no doubt,

guidance to those who ward off evil [Qur’an 2:2].

The Holy Spirit has revealed it from your Lord with truth, that it may confirm [the faith of] those who believe, and as guidance and good tidings for those who have surrendered [to God] [Qur’an 16:102]. It is no invented story but a confirmation of everything, and guidance and a mercy for folk who believe [Qur’an 12:111].

And lo! It is in truth a Reminder for you and for your folk; and you will be questioned [Qur’an 42:44].

God's mercy and His peace be on the Prophet whom,

He sent with the guidance, the religion of truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religions, however much the unbelievers may be averse [Qur’an 9:33].

The unlettered Prophet whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel [which are] with them: He will enjoin on them that which is right and forbid them that which is wrong [Qur’an 7:157].

And God's mercy be on his family, the excellent and the selected ones,

Who believe in him [Muhammad (S)] and honor him and help him, and follow the light [the Qur'an] that was revealed with him [Qur’an 7:157].

They are the truthful ones and the witnesses [to the revelation] with their Lord; they have their re­ ward and their light [Qur’an 57:19].

God is well pleased with them, and they are well pleased with Him. They are the Party of God. Lo! is it not the Party of God that is prosperous? [Qur’an 58:22].

And God's eternal curse be upon their enemies,

Who have exchanged guidance for error. Thus, their bargain did not profit them, and neither are they guided [Qur’an 2: 16].

The day when they come forth from their graves in haste, as racing to a goal, with eyes aghast, abasement stupefying them: Such is the Day which they are promised [Qur’an 70:43-44];

the day when their excuse avails not the evildoers, and theirs is the curse, and theirs the ill abode [Qur’an 40:52].

 

In view of this, I decided to write this work of exegesis, in the hope that God will help me in what I intend and will forgive me where I fail. Consequently, I have taken it upon myself to gather in this book what I can of the Qur'anic sciences that pertain to the meaning of the text. As for the sciences of Qur'anic style, I shall in most cases avoid them, for they have been extensively treated by a great number of exegetes, such as al-Shaykh al-Tusi in his al-Tibyan, al-Tabarsi in his Majma' al-Bayan, and al-Zamakhshari in his al-Kashshif. However, I shall deal with these stylistic aspects when the discussion requires it or when I find that an important aspect was neglected by other exegetes. Occasionally, I shall turn my attention to some important aspect even when other scholars have not neglected it.

The reader will find that my exegesis shall not deviate from the literary meaning of the Qur'an and its precise verses, nor shall it depart from the uninterrupted and universally accepted traditions (tawatur),1 which have been related through reliable chains of transmission from the inerrant Imams of Ahl al-Bayt (the progeny of the Prophet) (peace be upon him and his progeny). In addition, I shall abide by what would be independently accepted by innate reason, which God has made an internal proof, just as He has made [the teachings of] His Prophet and of those of his family who are divinely protected from error [the Imams] (peace be upon all of them) an external proof.2 The reader will also find that I frequently explain one verse with the help of another and that I seek guidance from the Qur'an itself to understand its meanings; and, subsequently, I employ the related traditions to support this comprehension.

What follows are a number of topics closely related to the purpose of this work, which shed some light on several of its aspects. I start with these because they will serve as an introduction to the exegesis of the Qur'an. They include academic topics related to the greatness and miraculous nature of the Qur'an; its immunity from alterations and freedom from contradictions; the principle of abrogation in its laws; and other such academic questions that need to be clarified as an introduction to understanding the Qur'an and exegeting it on a sound intellectual basis.

To God I turn humbly in supplication that He may grant me success and look upon my work with approval. Indeed, He is Praiseworthy, Glorious.

Read Full Book:
https://www.al-islam.org/al-bayan-fi-tafsir-al-quran-prolegomena-quran-sayyid-abu-al-qasim-al-khoei

[Zainuu]

On 5/25/2023 at 7:18 PM, Sabrejet said:

am personally inclined towards Ayatollah al Khoei's in this matter, but I have listened to the other side's arguments summarized by Allahyari.

If I'm not mistaken, @Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi, he doesn't believe actually believe that the Quran has tahreef, but that the copies available since Uthman's time till today have missing words or verses, correct? And that the Quran is preserved in the sense that the Mushaf of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) is present with Imam Mahdi ((عليه السلام))?

I think he also believes that the copies we have today have no fabrications or interpolations, i.e. it is the pure Word of Allah. Is it so?

Salaam,

 

You have asked him so the answer will come from brother's side. But let me make it clear that this is the exact point of view that I have criticized.

If someone says that the Quran we have between our 2 hands has tehreef and says that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) had the original one and it is preserved in a way that it is with Imam Mehdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف), that doesn't change anything.

Quran was not for Ahlebait (عليه السلام), they are the Uli al Amr. The ahl ul Dhikr, the ones with Ilm ul Kitab.

Quran e Majeed is a reminder, a guide for us. So, Quran being a guide for us (which is written in the book itself) will be negated if Quran is subject to distortion. This is as simple as it is.

If you consider the book of Allah to be distorted in any sense or way (The book we have in our homes). Then, it certainly weakens the argument of Thaqalayn.

 

And I am not using sole aql to make my point brother. It is purely based upon the mutawatir hadith (hadith as Thaqalayn) and the plain and flat verses of Quran (Surah al Hijr verse 10)

[Sabrejet]

@Zainuu Like I said brother, I don't personally ascribe to this view. I have found the arguments presented by Ayatollah al-Khoei to be sufficiently compelling.

However, I have also realized that the other view does exist. We can't simply pretend to ignore it anymore; Allahyari has spread it among the Urdu and Hindi speaking masses, and his audience base is expanding rapidly.

Instead of ignoring it, it is wise that we listen to their arguments and prepare our answers thoughtfully and logically, because this isn't an unknown view anymore.

[Zainuu]

On 5/25/2023 at 2:36 PM, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

First of all, when you, blindly adhere to the opinions of scholars, you can't question me for blindly accepting hadiths from scholars and following them.

I am not questioning you brother for doing so and it is actually you who question and blame muqallideen for doing taqleed. Although, you are yourself doing the same thing by relying on the works of scholars of hadith.

Taqleed is not even a debate, every Muslim does it in all senses. It is just that some do it knowingly and some do it unknowingly.

My entire point is:

There is only one book, one text in the entire islamic texts on which their is no debate and dispute of tehreef. It is the book of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), the same miraculous book that you and me have in our homes and we read and take lessons from it. Its purpose is guidance and it has completed its purpose in all sense and manner. Verses in Quran as per Surah Ale Imran verse 7 are of 2 types:

1. Plain, flat and certain and their is no doubt in them.

2. Allegorical ones and these are the verses for whom we need the help of Aimma e Ahlebait (عليه السلام) to explain it.

 

Verses we discussed in this discussion are all clear and certain and their is no doubt about it. Proof: because the verse itself says the same. Can we now not understand easy and simple language now? 

Inna (SURELY) Nahnu Nazzal naz Dhikra fa inna lahu la haafizoon

When Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says surely, then it means the their is no doubt in these words. And there is no hidden interpretation as well. Because showing certainty about something demands clarity in speech.

Rest I would say: Inna Lillahe wa Inna Ilaihe Rajeoon

We all have to return to Allah alone and we are answerable to Him alone.

[Zainuu]

5 minutes ago, Sabrejet said:

@Zainuu Like I said brother, I don't personally ascribe to this view. I have found the arguments presented by Ayatollah al-Khoei to be sufficiently compelling.

However, I have also realized that the other view does exist. We can't simply pretend to ignore it anymore; Allahyari has spread it among the Urdu and Hindi speaking masses, and his audience base is expanding rapidly.

Instead of ignoring it, it is wise that we listen to their arguments and prepare our answers thoughtfully and logically, because this isn't an unknown view anymore.

Yeah. That's actually correct.

The best in my belief is to bring the masses close to Quran (the Reminder, the guide).

[Ashvazdanghe]

 

[Cool]

2 hours ago, Zainuu said:

Quran was not for Ahlebait (عليه السلام), they are the Uli al Amr. The ahl ul Dhikr, the ones with Ilm ul Kitab.

Quran e Majeed is a reminder, a guide for us. So, Quran being a guide for us (which is written in the book itself) will be negated if Quran is subject to distortion. This is as simple as it is.

Salam Brother!!

I would like to add precisely that Quran is specifically for the "Ulil Albab" (the people of understanding, the ones who have the capacity to properly & positively use reason). Quran itself says this in Sura e Talaq:

فَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ يَا أُولِي الْأَلْبَابِ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا ۚ قَدْ أَنزَلَ اللَّهُ إِلَيْكُمْ ذِكْرًا 

65:10) therefore be careful of (your duty to) Allah, O men of understanding who believe! Allah has indeed revealed to you a reminder,

Neither the reason accepts the claim nor the Quran itself mentions that there are chances of distortion in its text. So the "reminder" which has been revealed for the "men of understanding", Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has taken the responsibility of its protection as well as explanation:

و انا له لحافظون

انا علينا جمعه و قرأنا ثم انا علينا بيانه

Wassalam!!

 

[Cool]

On 4/15/2023 at 7:30 AM, Cool said:

The word لب (lub) means the seed which is present inside the shell. It means those who have ability to use their intellect for understanding things. So whatever is the existing arrangement of Quranic text, the men of understanding, always find a way out & guidance from it. 

Quran describes "Ulil Albaab" as:

الَّذِينَ يَسْتَمِعُونَ الْقَوْلَ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ أَحْسَنَهُ أُوْلَئِكَ الَّذِينَ هَدَاهُمُ اللَّهُ وَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمْ أُوْلُوا الْأَلْبَابِ

39:18) Those who listen to the word, then follow the best of it; those are they whom Allah has guided, and those it is who are the men of understanding.

This ability to extrapolate the أَحْسَنَهُ, (or to reach to what is best of it,) from any قَوْلَ make the ones "Ulil Albaab".

[Zainuu]

3 hours ago, Cool said:

would like to add precisely that Quran is specifically for the "Ulil Albab" (the people of understanding, the ones who have the capacity to properly & positively use reason).

Salaam Brother! 

It is a good addition to make the matter more clear. Yes, there are people of a certain category only who are guided. But it's not only about Quran e Majeed. They just are not guided by any source. And guidance will actually never reach them. Neither through Ahlulbayt's (عليه السلام) intercession nor anything through the sunnah of the holy prophet (S).

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

People here have quoted a bunch of irrelevant verses that have nothing to do with Tehreef, most of us don't even know how Quran was compiled, see how it all begin,

Sahih Bukhari - Hadith 4679

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari:

who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). `Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, `Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to `Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?' `Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So `Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as `Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added:) `Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Messenger (ﷺ). Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript). 

Till that time, its very clear from Hadith that Quran was never between the two covers and that a job of compilation of Quran was assigned to Zayd Bin Thabit. Question is who is he and how come a book compiled by him became a book that can't have any issues or what is the proof that nothing was missing from it? Lets see rest of hadith:

By Allah, if he (Abu Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and `Umar. So I started locating Qur'anic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuza`ima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):-- "Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)" (9.128) The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with `Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, `Umar's daughter.

This is how initially compilation begin, anyone who reads this without any bias would agree that this method of collection of Quran seems very immature and proves placement of verses, and even chapter is an innovation from Zayd Bin Thabit since Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never collected Quran between two covers.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

The reason i've quoted Bukhari is because those are the people who have compiled Quran that is with us now.
Here in bukhari hadith 7170 chapter 

باب الشَّهَادَةِ تَكُونُ عِنْدَ الْحَاكِمِ فِي وِلاَيَتِهِ الْقَضَاءِ أَوْ قَبْلَ ذَلِكَ لِلْخَصْمِ

There is a hadith from, Umar:
 قَالَ عُمَرُ لَوْلاَ أَنْ يَقُولَ النَّاسُ زَادَ عُمَرُ فِي كِتَابِ اللَّهِ. لَكَتَبْتُ آيَةَ الرَّجْمِ بِيَدِي
Umar said if people won't say i added to Quran, then i would've written ayah rajam in Quran.

These are people who have compiled Quran and see there testimonies against the completeness of Quran and the way they compiled Quran is not an authentic or academic way / approach.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

And now for clarification of a claim that i made that Zayd bin thabit never collected whole Quran:

Al Kafi: 

مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ يَحْيَى عَنْ أَحْمَدَ بْنِ مُحَمَّدٍ عَنِ ابْنِ مَحْبُوبٍ عَنْ عَمْرِو بْنِ أَبِي الْمِقْدَامِ عَنْ جَابِرٍ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ أَبَا جَعْفَرٍ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) يَقُولُ مَا ادَّعَى أَحَدٌ مِنَ النَّاسِ أَنَّهُ جَمَعَ الْقُرْآنَ كُلَّهُ كَمَا أُنْزِلَ إِلا كَذَّابٌ وَمَا جَمَعَهُ وَحَفِظَهُ كَمَا نَزَّلَهُ الله تَعَالَى إِلا عَلِيُّ بْنُ أَبِي طَالِبٍ (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) وَالائِمَّةُ مِنْ بَعْدِهِ (عَلَيْهم السَّلام )

Muhammad ibn Yahya has narrated from Ahmad ibn Muhammad from ibn Mahbub from ‘Amr ibn abu al-Miqdam from Jabir who has said that he heard abu Ja‘far ((عليه السلام)) say the following. “No one from the people has claimed to have collected the whole of the Holy Quran (in a book form) as it was revealed. If anyone would come up with such a claim, he is liar. No one collected this Holy Book and memorized as Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High revealed it except Ali ibn abu Talib ((عليه السلام)) and the Imams after him.”

Next hadith from Al-Kafi:

 مُحَمَّدُ بْنُ الْحُسَيْنِ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ الْحَسَنِ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ سِنَانٍ عَنْ عَمَّارِ بْنِ مَرْوَانَ عَنِ الْمُنَخَّلِ عَنْ جَابِرٍ عَنْ ابي جعفر (عَلَيْهِ السَّلام) أَنَّهُ قَالَ مَا يَسْتَطِيعُ أَحَدٌ أَنْ يَدَّعِيَ أَنَّ عِنْدَهُ جَمِيعَ الْقُرْآنِ كُلِّهِ ظَاهِرِهِ وَبَاطِنِهِ غَيْرُ الاوْصِيَاءِ

Muhammad ibn al-Husayn has narrated from Muhammad ibn al-Hassan from Muhammad ibn Sinan from ‘Ammar ibn Marwan from al-Munakhkhal from Jabir from abu Ja‘far ((عليه السلام)) who has said the following. “No one is able to claim that with him is the whole of the Holy Quran; its apparent and hidden (essence), except the executors of the will of the Holy Prophet (s.a.).

Please note that Imam (عليه السلام) said: No one is able to claim that with him is whole Quran, (كُلِّهِ ظَاهِرِهِ وَبَاطِنِهِ) both zaahir and baatin. this statement proves present Quran is incomplete in terms of both: Zaahir verses, and batin meanings.

[Ethics]

You can quote as many hadiths as you want, it does not supersede quranic statements proving the perfection of itself, unless you claim the quran is imperfect, then your entire religious premise falls apart for everything you rely and depend on becomes relative, false, and contradictory.

You claim to be a muslim, you claim to be someone who abides by the quran and sunnah, yet the same sources you abide and believe in, you also believe to be distorted, incomplete, and changed. How can you prove anything you believe in is not man-made and convoluted? Better yet, why would I follow your religion, when a God you claim is so almighty so absolute, and a prophet you claim is so perfect, cannot even protect the central thing which is your God's words, that which you claim as a muslim was divinely inspired at the same time. To me, your beliefs are no different than protestants, catholics, and sunni muslims... each claim they follow the word of god, which at the same time fallible beings were able to infiltrate, change, and distort.

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 5/28/2023 at 11:29 AM, Zainuu said:

Verses we discussed in this discussion are all clear and certain and their is no doubt about it. Proof: because the verse itself says the same. Can we now not understand easy and simple language now? 

Inna (SURELY) Nahnu Nazzal naz Dhikra fa inna lahu la haafizoon

When Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says surely, then it means the their is no doubt in these words. And there is no hidden interpretation as well. Because showing certainty about something demands clarity in speech.

Rest I would say: Inna Lillahe wa Inna Ilaihe Rajeoon

Failed to address any of my question regarding this verse, here an extract of tafseer from hub e Ali and before you attack Hub-e-Ali, just letting you know they've quoted Sadooq here from Uyun Akhbaar e Reza:

Zikr in the verse 15:9 refers to Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

2 minutes ago, Ethics said:

You can quote as many hadiths as you want, it does not supersede quranic statements proving the perfection of itself,

Nothing supersede quranic verses no doubt about that. but majority of verses are subject to interpretation which can either come from Ahlebait (عليه السلام) in hadiths, or it can be your own personal opinion which is not a hujjah on anyone.

3 minutes ago, Ethics said:

unless you claim the quran is imperfect, then your entire religious premise falls apart for everything you rely and depend on becomes relative, false, and contradictory

Its just a claim, yes Quran is incomplete and without completely knowing occasion of revelation of verses or verses in their real form, yes it can be said that its imperfect because it was compiled by fallible people and is not the Quran that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) gathered.
if you talk about Quran of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), obviously it is complete, under protection by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

However to think that Zayd Bin Thabit would compile a book and it would be protected by Allah is just non-sense and falsehood.

[Ethics]

1 minute ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Nothing supersede quranic verses no doubt about that. but majority of verses are subject to interpretation which can either come from Ahlebait (عليه السلام) in hadiths, or it can be your own personal opinion which is not a hujjah on anyone.

That makes no sense, as I pointed to above. If you claim nothing supersedes the quranic verses but reject the verses that prove the quran is complete and perfect, then you are clearly contradicting yourself.

 

 

3 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Its just a claim, yes Quran is incomplete and without completely knowing occasion of revelation of verses or verses in their real form, yes it can be said that its imperfect because it was compiled by fallible people and is not the Quran that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) gathered.
if you talk about Quran of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), obviously it is complete, under protection by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Besides the points I raised above, this is just far from irrational and just belittling your own faith that you claim is the truth religion. Why would I follow your religion when your God cannot even guide you properly? And supposedly you believe He is perfect in guidance? What purpose does a man you claim as a successor as a prophet and your leader/guide have if his version of your laws and divine commands is lost with him? Nothing makes sense, no justice, no guidance, no leadership, cannot even protect the words of God, what am i even suppose to be following? maybe the most important laws and commands are missing? whole religion is baseless just like all the other infiltrated religions

[Abu Hadi]

52 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Nothing supersede quranic verses no doubt about that. but majority of verses are subject to interpretation which can either come from Ahlebait (عليه السلام) in hadiths, or it can be your own personal opinion which is not a hujjah on anyone.

Its just a claim, yes Quran is incomplete and without completely knowing occasion of revelation of verses or verses in their real form, yes it can be said that its imperfect because it was compiled by fallible people and is not the Quran that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) gathered.
if you talk about Quran of Imam Ali (عليه السلام), obviously it is complete, under protection by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

However to think that Zayd Bin Thabit would compile a book and it would be protected by Allah is just non-sense and falsehood.

Unfortunately Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) himself would not agree with you. It was Imam Ali((عليه السلام)) who was the first to compile all the ayats and surats (verses and chapters) and he did this immediately following the death of Rasoulallah(p.b.u.h). Just so there is no misunderstanding, I am using the definition of the Quran which is accepted by all Muslims, i.e. the words that were revealed to Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). These words came to Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h) in the form of ayat(verses) and surat(chapters). All these ayat and surat are included in the Holy Quran, i.e. the book that we have today. 

If you want to make the statement that the verses and chapters that are currently part of the Holy Quran (ayat and surat) are not in their 'real form' i.e. different from the form that they were reveled to Prophet Muhammad(p.b.u.h), then the burden is on you to give proofs for that, since the vast, vast majority of Muslims today (99.999%) including all our (Shia) ulema and marjaa' that I am aware of do not believe this. These are people who have spent their entire lives studying Quran. The video posted in the beginning of this thread is a fabricated video edited to show something which is false (i.e. that Sayid Murtada Qazwini believes in Tahreef(distortion of the Quran). 

What you are talking about (occasions of revelation of verses, circumstances, who they were revealed about, etc) is not Quran but Tafsir. Yes, the book of Al Jame3at (Tafsir of the Quran written by Imam Ali((عليه السلام))) is a real book that was written by him that was presented to Abu Bakr and Umar and which they rejected and made Hadith and Tafsir forbidden to be transmitted while they were Caliphs in order (mainly) to hide this tafsir from the public. Yes, It is maybe the biggest or one of the biggest tragedies in the history of humanity that this Tafsir was hidden from us (i.e. the Muslims). At the same time, that it not Quran, so you cannot mix the two together. 

 

Edited July 1 by Abu Hadi

[Ashvazdanghe]

17 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

This is how initially compilation begin, anyone who reads this without any bias would agree that this method of collection of Quran seems very immature and proves placement of verses, and even chapter is an innovation from Zayd Bin Thabit since Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never collected Quran between two covers.

Salam according to Shia hadiths & approving of all infallible Imams  all placement of verse has been done by prophet Muhammad (pbu) himself not anyone else also it's clear that Zayd ibn Thabit & other companions of prophet have not enough knowledge to change order of verse after demise of prophet Muhammad (pbu) which most knowledgeable person about causes & places of sending of revelation after prophet has been Imam Ali (عليه السلام) who has confirmed current holy quran which in similar fashion rest of infallible Imams have confirmed it's perfection  .

17 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Please note that Imam (عليه السلام) said: No one is able to claim that with him is whole Quran, (كُلِّهِ ظَاهِرِهِ وَبَاطِنِهِ) both zaahir and baatin. this statement proves present Quran is incomplete in terms of both: Zaahir verses, and batin meanings.

Zaahir 7 Baatin are not seperate from each other which text of holy quran as it's Zaahir is completle  & without any distortion but for interpreting of Baatin we need knowledge of infallible Imam to decode real meaning from perfect Zaahir so therefore prophet (pbu) Quran & Ahlulbayt won't seperate from each other until judgment day.

 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Salam according to Shia hadiths & approving of all infallible Imams  all placement of verse has been done by prophet Muhammad (pbu) himself not anyone else also it's clear that Zayd ibn Thabit & other companions of prophet have not enough knowledge to change order of verse after demise of prophet Muhammad (pbu) which most knowledgeable person about causes & places of sending of revelation after prophet has been Imam Ali (عليه السلام) who has confirmed current holy quran which in similar fashion rest of infallible Imams have confirmed it's perfection 

a claim that has no basis or proofs, even sunni scholars won't agree with you on this let alone shia scholars.

I'm surprised that people here just claim anything they like and take it as hujjah without evidence seriously? 

18 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

What you are talking about (occasions of revelation of verses, circumstances, who they were revealed about, etc) is not Quran but Tafsir. Yes, the book of Al Jame3at (Tafsir of the Quran written by Imam Ali((عليه السلام))) is a real book that was written by him that was presented to Abu Bakr and Umar and which they rejected and made Hadith and Tafsir forbidden to be transmitted while they were Caliphs in order (mainly) to hide this tafsir from the public.

All people here be witness, that @Abu Hadi will now prove that Quran of Mola Ali (عليه السلام) had Tafsir. Please enlighten us with historical evidence, words of infallible that proves that Quran had tafseer.

I gave plenty of Hadiths in this thread that it verses were recited differently, and people like Zayd Bin Thabiq who compiled Quran and others, their words prove Quran is incomplete.

PLEASE FOR GODS SAKE, WHEN YOU MAKE A CLAIM, PROVE IT!

18 hours ago, Ethics said:

Besides the points I raised above, this is just far from irrational and just belittling your own faith that you claim is the truth religion. Why would I follow your religion when your God cannot even guide you properly? And supposedly you believe He is perfect in guidance? What purpose does a man you claim as a successor as a prophet and your leader/guide have if his version of your laws and divine commands is lost with him? Nothing makes sense, no justice, no guidance, no leadership, cannot even protect the words of God, what am i even suppose to be following? maybe the most important laws and commands are missing? whole religion is baseless just like all the other infiltrated religions

Brother, there has been a big tehreef in `Sunnah` and `Hadiths`. To this date, all Muslims take Sunnah and Hadith as perfect guidance despite there having tehreef in it but people who have aql can differentiate between whats sahih and whats wrong.

Therefore the answer you give to the above question would be my answer and would be rebuttal of `Imperfect Religion hence no guidance` or `Allah couldn't protect religion how can he guide` `commands have been lost then whats the point of followin religion` etc.

Because its established there have been plenty of Ahkaam, halal haram, occasion of revelation of verse that have been `LOST`.

Whats your answer for this would be my answer for why i follow Quran if i think majority of verses have been lost.

2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Zaahir 7 Baatin are not seperate from each other which text of holy quran as it's Zaahir is completle  & without any distortion but for interpreting of Baatin we need knowledge of infallible Imam to decode real meaning from perfect Zaahir so therefore prophet (pbu) Quran & Ahlulbayt won't seperate from each other until judgment day.

Brother, why would you say that? I don't think you understood the hadith or even read the hadith.

قَالَ مَا يَسْتَطِيعُ أَحَدٌ أَنْ يَدَّعِيَ أَنَّ عِنْدَهُ جَمِيعَ الْقُرْآنِ كُلِّهِ ظَاهِرِهِ وَبَاطِنِهِ غَيْرُ الاوْصِيَاءِ

abu Ja‘far ((عليه السلام)) who has said the following. “No one is able to claim that with him is the whole of the Holy Quran; its apparent and hidden (essence), except the executors of the will of the Holy Prophet (s.a.).

No one has whole Quran both (zaahir and battin) except for Ahlebait (عليه السلام) Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) says that.

now Alhumdullah, your trick of getting away from hadiths of tehreef saying its about tafseer has been refuted. because here Imam (عليه السلام) said no one has `zaahir` which has nothing to do with tafseer and it refers to what content we have in Quran and `baatin` refers to tafsir, the meanings that no one has except for Imams (عليه السلام).

I have backed everything (almost) i said with hadiths, but you people just keep claiming things without giving evidence for it.

[Ethics]

17 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

Brother, there has been a big tehreef in `Sunnah` and `Hadiths`. To this date, all Muslims take Sunnah and Hadith as perfect guidance despite there having tehreef in it but people who have aql can differentiate between whats sahih and whats wrong.

Therefore the answer you give to the above question would be my answer and would be rebuttal of `Imperfect Religion hence no guidance` or `Allah couldn't protect religion how can he guide` `commands have been lost then whats the point of followin religion` etc.

Because its established there have been plenty of Ahkaam, halal haram, occasion of revelation of verse that have been `LOST`.

Whats your answer for this would be my answer for why i follow Quran if i think majority of verses have been lost.

With due respect, this answer does not satisfy me. None of the points I raised were answered. How can you compare sunnah to the words of divine lord, that is quite preposterous. But it makes sense that you are comparing Allah's words to narrations/stories/history recorded by fallible beings, because you do not believe your Allah and His guidance to be perfect. The literal ONLY reason why sunnah in Imami Islam is authentic is because of the infalliblity of the quran, you do realize that right? Because there is a checking system, otherwise everything is relative.

[Cool]

16 minutes ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

 

قَالَ مَا يَسْتَطِيعُ أَحَدٌ أَنْ يَدَّعِيَ أَنَّ عِنْدَهُ جَمِيعَ الْقُرْآنِ كُلِّهِ ظَاهِرِهِ وَبَاطِنِهِ غَيْرُ الاوْصِيَاءِ

abu Ja‘far ((عليه السلام)) who has said the following. “No one is able to claim that with him is the whole of the Holy Quran; its apparent and hidden (essence), 

Salam Brother!!

The above hadith certainly does not mean that the zahir & batin of Quran are two separate things. Zahir and Batin always belongs to one single entity. 

So most likely the hadith means "knowledge of whole Quran, its apparent & hidden" where it says جَمِيعَ الْقُرْآنِ كُلِّهِ ظَاهِرِهِ وَبَاطِنِهِ. 

And this interpretation is further attested by Quran:

وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ 

And the term "غَيْرُ الاوْصِيَاءِ" in your quoted hadith further elaborates that the الاوصياء are the ones whom we know as "Rasikhoona fil ilm". So its about "knowing" and not mentioning the "two types" of Quran. 

Wassalam!!