2 witnesses needed - can someone help?

[AussieShia]

Salam all

This is a bit random but I need some help and am hoping there are two men on here that can assist me.

My wife and I have been married for quite a while, and although we are very amicable with one another we are not feeling satisfied or content with each other. After a lot of discussion between my wife and I, we have mutually agreed to divorce. We are not upset or sad about the situation, and fully understand the impact of divorce, and we wish each other nothing but the best.

Our problem is that we would very much prefer to keep this private as much as possible for the time being, but we will find it difficult to find 2 witnesses for our divorce outside of family/close friends. It would also not be a good option for us to see a Sheikh.

There was a question posted a while back about the witnesses being able to hear the divorce being recited over the phone. The answer from Ayat.Sayyed Khamenei's office was that this was valid and there was no need for the witnesses to be physically present:

I am hoping that I might find two men on here that would be willing to hear my divorce recital over the phone? My wife would be on the call, and it wouldn't take up much of your time.

Is there anyone that can help us with this? We would be very grateful if we could get some help with this.

[Haji 2003]

Personal contact details cannot be shared over the discussion forums (they can be shared via personal messaging, for which a minimum post history is needed). But I am approving this post in case anyone has any comment on the general principle.

[Abu Hadi]

From my understanding, while it is true that they don't need to be physically present, the witnesses must be 'adl'. They should be known to be practicing muslims, not do anything haram openly (not fasiq) and known to tell the truth. The problem with doing this online, with people you don't know is that 1) You don't know if this is actually a real person or not. With modern tools like ChatGPT, it is quite easy for a 'bot' (i.e. a computer program) to imitate a person to the extent that you will not be able to tell, just be chatting over the internet, that it is not an actual person. Second, even if it is a real person, you don't know if they are adl, because you don't know them. 

If you have brothers that you know, in real life, they can do it. Another option is to go to a masjid in another community, not where you live, and do it there, if you want to keep it private, although I don't understand the logic behind this. If you are divorced, everyone in your community will find out eventually, unless you are both willing to pack up and move to another area, country.  You are just prolonging the inevitable.

Also, with divorce, it is highly, highly discouraged in Islam to come to these sorts of conclusions without advice and counseling from a neutral third party that is adl(just) and alim(knowledgeable about Islam) such as a sheik or a mufti. Divorce is an extremely serious thing in Islam that shouldn't be taken lightly. I am not accusing you of taking it lightly, but I think you should consult a third party about this that you both trust, in case you haven't already, and go thru the counseling process before you make this decision. 

Salam. 

Edited March 23 by Abu Hadi

[AussieShia]

4 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

Personal contact details cannot be shared over the discussion forums (they can be shared via personal messaging, for which a minimum post history is needed). But I am approving this post in case anyone has any comment on the general principle.

I appreciate you putting up my post in any case. Can I ask what that minimum post history would be?

[AussieShia]

3 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

From my understanding, while it is true that they don't need to be physically present, the witnesses must be 'adl'. They should be known to be practicing muslims, not do anything haram openly (not fasiq) and known to tell the truth. The problem with doing this online, with people you don't know is that 1) You don't know if this is actually a real person or not. With modern tools like ChatGPT, it is quite easy for a 'bot' (i.e. a computer program) to imitate a person to the extent that you will not be able to tell, just be chatting over the internet, that it is not an actual person. Second, even if it is a real person, you don't know if they are adl, because you don't know them. 

If you have brothers that you know, in real life, they can do it. Another option is to go to a masjid in another community, not where you live, and do it there, if you want to keep it private, although I don't understand the logic behind this. If you are divorced, everyone in your community will find out eventually, unless you are both willing to pack up and move to another area, country.  You are just prolonging the inevitable.

Also, with divorce, it is highly, highly discouraged in Islam to come to these sorts of conclusions without advice and counseling from a neutral third party that is adl(just) and alim(knowledgeable about Islam) such as a sheik or a mufti. Divorce is an extremely serious thing in Islam that shouldn't be taken lightly. I am not accusing you of taking it lightly, but I think you should consult a third party about this that you both trust, in case you haven't already, and go thru the counseling process before you make this decision. 

Salam. 

Salam 

I understand the witnesses need to be adl, I would have hoped the witnesses who put their hand up to assist would count themselves as practising Muslims. I'm not concerned about the person being a bot if they were going to be jumping on a call, I know AI is progressing but maybe not to that extent yet.

Going to a masjid in another community will be the option for us seeing as I won't be able to private message anyone on here. We did hope to avoid that as I would expect that Sheikh or mufti to try and counsel us. My wife and I have resolved this together over a significant period of time, are firm in our decision, and merely need witnesses so we can proceed.

I hate to bring the whole Sunni/Shia issue into it, but do you think there is any question on whether a practicing Sunni could be a witness to the divorce of a Shia couple?

I do find it interesting that a Sunni couple would need no witnesses for their divorce but a Shia couple need two.

[Abu Hadi]

14 minutes ago, AussieShia said:

Salam 

I understand the witnesses need to be adl, I would have hoped the witnesses who put their hand up to assist would count themselves as practising Muslims. I'm not concerned about the person being a bot if they were going to be jumping on a call, I know AI is progressing but maybe not to that extent yet.

Going to a masjid in another community will be the option for us seeing as I won't be able to private message anyone on here. We did hope to avoid that as I would expect that Sheikh or mufti to try and counsel us. My wife and I have resolved this together over a significant period of time, are firm in our decision, and merely need witnesses so we can proceed.

I hate to bring the whole Sunni/Shia issue into it, but do you think there is any question on whether a practicing Sunni could be a witness to the divorce of a Shia couple?

I do find it interesting that a Sunni couple would need no witnesses for their divorce but a Shia couple need two.

AI has progressed to that point. I'm not sure how familiar you are with new technologies like Chat  GPT, there are other threads about it. Also, I don't think that many people here would volunteer to be a witness for a divorce when they know nothing about the couple, don't know the couple, and know nothing about the situation. IMHO, that would be irresponsible of them to do. I am not saying haram, but irresponsible. In a regular, in person situation, people do do that, i.e. be witnesses to a divorce without knowing the couple or anything about the situation, but they do this only after an alim, who is familiar with the case asks them to do it. They do it because they trust the alim who asked them. That is how it normally works and there are very good reasons it works this way. Divorce is not supposed to be very easy, otherwise people would do it out of haste, then regret their decision later. 

From what I know, a Sunni could not be a witness because they don't have the same fiqh as us regarding divorce, i.e. they believe that you can do a final divorce at one time (the famous 'Talaq, Talaq, Talaq' which I'm sure you have seen on Egyptian movies, lol). This is from what I know. I think you have decided to go to a masjid not in your community and I think that is a very good idea. InShahAllah things will work out for the best for you and your wife. 

Edited March 23 by Abu Hadi

[Haji 2003]

1 hour ago, AussieShia said:

Can I ask what that minimum post history would be?

@Hameedeh help!

[AussieShia]

5 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

AI has progressed to that point. I'm not sure how familiar you are with new technologies like Chat  GPT, there are other threads about it. Also, I don't think that many people here would volunteer to be a witness for a divorce when they know nothing about the couple, don't know the couple, and know nothing about the situation. IMHO, that would be irresponsible of them to do. I am not saying haram, but irresponsible. In a regular, in person situation, people do do that, i.e. be witnesses to a divorce without knowing the couple or anything about the situation, but they do this only after an alim, who is familiar with the case asks them to do it. They do it because they trust the alim who asked them. That is how it normally works and there are very good reasons it works this way. Divorce is not supposed to be very easy, otherwise people would do it out of haste, then regret their decision later. 

From what I know, a Sunni could not be a witness because they don't have the same fiqh as us regarding divorce, i.e. they believe that you can do a final divorce at one time (the famous 'Talaq, Talaq, Talaq' which I'm sure you have seen on Egyptian movies, lol). This is from what I know. I think you have decided to go to a masjid not in your community and I think that is a very good idea. InShahAllah things will work out for the best for you and your wife. 

 

I didn't think there would be many takers on here as it is an unusual request, but I did have some hope I could find two brothers that would help us.

I do have to disagree with your opinion that it would be irresponsible for someone to volunteer to be a witness without knowing us or our situation. My understanding is that two witnesses are required to independently verify and attest if needed that the divorce did in fact happen. Not that they are there to know the couple, understand the situation, and do what they can to prevent the divorce. There is no mention in the response from Ayat.Sayyed Khamenei's office that the witness should know the couple or understand the situation, only that the witnesses must be able to hear the divorce recital. My wife and I are both educated, intelligent and responsible, have given this divorce considerable thought and we don't need any further counselling on this matter. So in our situation, having to go through a Sheikh to seek a divorce, where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given us the power to act upon this without the involvement of a Sheikh, is unfortunate. 

I had the same feeling regarding having a Sunni witness the divorce recital. That unfortunately severely limits our options as well.

I appreciate your responses and this forum.

[Abu Hadi]

2 minutes ago, AussieShia said:

 

I didn't think there would be many takers on here as it is an unusual request, but I did have some hope I could find two brothers that would help us.

I do have to disagree with your opinion that it would be irresponsible for someone to volunteer to be a witness without knowing us or our situation. My understanding is that two witnesses are required to independently verify and attest if needed that the divorce did in fact happen. Not that they are there to know the couple, understand the situation, and do what they can to prevent the divorce. There is no mention in the response from Ayat.Sayyed Khamenei's office that the witness should know the couple or understand the situation, only that the witnesses must be able to hear the divorce recital. My wife and I are both educated, intelligent and responsible, have given this divorce considerable thought and we don't need any further counselling on this matter. So in our situation, having to go through a Sheikh to seek a divorce, where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has given us the power to act upon this without the involvement of a Sheikh, is unfortunate. 

I had the same feeling regarding having a Sunni witness the divorce recital. That unfortunately severely limits our options as well.

I appreciate your responses and this forum.

You need to look at the response of Ayat Khamenis office in context. He is assuming you are going thru the normal process of divorce which means counseling by an alim. In that normal context where you have went thru this process then it is correct that the witnesses do not need to know you or your situation. The kind of divorce you are talking about is not the normal process so you can't assume that the answer given by the office is based on this not normal context. Answers from offices of Marjaa always make assumptions as most people who send inquiries only give partial information. 

 

 

[AussieShia]

15 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

You need to look at the response of Ayat Khamenis office in context. He is assuming you are going thru the normal process of divorce which means counseling by an alim. In that normal context where you have went thru this process then it is correct that the witnesses do not need to know you or your situation. The kind of divorce you are talking about is not the normal process so you can't assume that the answer given by the office is based on this not normal context. Answers from offices of Marjaa always make assumptions as most people who send inquiries only give partial information. 

 

 

I don't mean this to be taken the wrong way, but I don't think you should be saying what Ayat Khameni's office has based their ruling on and what assumptions they have made in making their ruling.

If a ruling assumes certain preconditions, then those preconditions needs to be stated in the ruling, otherwise the ruling would not stand and could not be relied upon. The ruling makes no mention of going through an alim, so it's not right to state that the ruling is based on that.

If you can point me to a ruling that states that you must go through counselling by an alim then I will stand corrected, but my understanding is that a man can divorce his wife without being counselled by an alim if he so wishes.

Further, you did make a point that a divorce shouldn't be done in haste in case there is regret by the parties after. We are not doing this in haste, and in any case there is an extended iddah period under which I could take my wife back, which negates the argument of a divorce being done in haste.

Your responses are part of the reason why we would much rather avoid going through a Sheikh, as there will be many questions and attempts to change our minds when we have already decided on the matter.

[Hameedeh]

7 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

@Hameedeh help!

It used to be 25 posts in the forums, but it could have been reduced by Site Admins to 20 posts. About 3 days. 

[Abu Hadi]

11 hours ago, AussieShia said:

I don't mean this to be taken the wrong way, but I don't think you should be saying what Ayat Khameni's office has based their ruling on and what assumptions they have made in making their ruling.

If a ruling assumes certain preconditions, then those preconditions needs to be stated in the ruling, otherwise the ruling would not stand and could not be relied upon. The ruling makes no mention of going through an alim, so it's not right to state that the ruling is based on that.

If you can point me to a ruling that states that you must go through counselling by an alim then I will stand corrected, but my understanding is that a man can divorce his wife without being counselled by an alim if he so wishes.

Further, you did make a point that a divorce shouldn't be done in haste in case there is regret by the parties after. We are not doing this in haste, and in any case there is an extended iddah period under which I could take my wife back, which negates the argument of a divorce being done in haste.

Your responses are part of the reason why we would much rather avoid going through a Sheikh, as there will be many questions and attempts to change our minds when we have already decided on the matter.

I'm not going to get into a debate with you about an obvious point. Obviously you can do what you want, it makes no difference to me. I am only trying to do my wajib kafiya by trying to advise someone who asks for advice. 

The obvious point here is that the Marjaa live in Muslim countries. Sayyid Ali Khameni lives in Iran, and he is the head of the govt there. Sayyid Sistani lives in Iraq, etc. 

Now consider this scenario. A man in a muslim country (any muslim country that I am familiar with) says 'I want to divorce my wife, hey you over there and you over there, come be witnesses to this divorce'. He does this without going thru the legal channels necessary to do this first. For someone who lives in a muslim country, it is assumed that there is a process outside of just 'Hey you, Hey you'. There is a system in muslims countries and even some Western Countries like the the UK for religious marriages  / divorces that are recognized by the National Govt. There isn't a system like this in the US, and I'm not sure if there is one in Australia, but my guess is there isn't. 

The marjaa are human beings. They live in a particular country, in a particular environment, and they, like everyone else, makes assumptions based on the knowledge they have, and this knowledge comes from their environment. This seems like an obvious point to me, prima facie (accepted as correct until proven otherwise). 

For most questions people ask marjaa (like questions regarding prayer, fasting, for women childbirth, menstrual cycle, hajj, etc) the current legal system where they live is not a factor, so there is no reason to make assumptions about this. In this case it is a factor. 

Edited March 24 by Abu Hadi

[AussieShia]

41 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

I'm not going to get into a debate with you about an obvious point. Obviously you can do what you want, it makes no difference to me. I am only trying to do my wajib kafiya by trying to advise someone who asks for advice. 

The obvious point here is that the Marjaa live in Muslim countries. Sayyid Ali Khameni lives in Iran, and he is the head of the govt there. Sayyid Sistani lives in Iraq, etc. 

Now consider this scenario. A man in a muslim country (any muslim country that I am familiar with) says 'I want to divorce my wife, hey you over there and you over there, come be witnesses to this divorce'. He does this without going thru the legal channels necessary to do this first. For someone who lives in a muslim country, it is assumed that there is a process outside of just 'Hey you, Hey you'. There is a system in muslims countries and even some Western Countries like the the UK for religious marriages  / divorces that are recognized by the National Govt. There isn't a system like this in the US, and I'm not sure if there is one in Australia, but my guess is there isn't. 

The marjaa are human beings. They live in a particular country, in a particular environment, and they, like everyone else, makes assumptions based on the knowledge they have, and this knowledge comes from their environment. This seems like an obvious point to me, prima facie (accepted as correct until proven otherwise). 

For most questions people ask marjaa (like questions regarding prayer, fasting, for women childbirth, menstrual cycle, hajj, etc) the current legal system where they live is not a factor, so there is no reason to make assumptions about this. In this case it is a factor. 

Grand Ayatollah Sayyed Mohammad Saeed Al-Hakeem lived in Iraq. As per the Q&A on his website (https://www.alhakeem.com/en/questions/660/2):

 

The Approval of the Witnesses

Question :

Do I need the approval of the witnesses to hear the divorce formula? Can I just say it in front of them, or must they agree to be witnesses for it?

Answer :

It is not required to seek the approval of the witnesses.

 

This pretty much goes against everything you said. This is a ruling from Iraq, and the ruling is implying I could effectively go up to any two men that meet the requirements for being a witness and say the divorce recital in front of them.

I understand you are trying to help me, and I respect and appreciate that. But we should stick to the actual rulings rather than try and fill in perceived gaps ourselves or make assumptions about rulings.