Taraweeh Shia

[Simple thinking]

Salam Alaikum 

Since shehr Ramadan has arrived, the usual taraweeh polemics have emerged. It appears that Wahhabis have given up trying to prove it is not bidah to pray in congregation, so they have resorted to claiming that we Shia believe in it as well, and that it is mentioned in our Hadiths. 

Shia References they are using:

Milath ul Akhyar vol 5 page 505

They are essentially arguing that this Hadith says to pray the compulsory prayer and nafafil prayers with your family during shehr Ramadan, where "with your family" refers to a congregation.

Insha Allah, someone will correct these misconceptions.

[Abu_Zahra]

Wa alaikum as salam

It isn't necessarily a misconception.  There are some interesting counter arguments to the idea that taraweeh is an innovation:

https://shiareformist.wordpress.com/2016/09/11/taraweeh/

[Muslim2010]

20 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

Salam Alaikum 
Since shehr Ramadan has arrived, the usual taraweeh polemics have emerged. It appears that Wahhabis have given up trying to prove it is not bidah to pray in congregation, so they have resorted to claiming that we Shia believe in it as well, and that it is mentioned in our Hadiths. 

Shia References they are using:

Milath ul Akhyar vol 5 page 505

They are essentially arguing that this Hadith says to pray the compulsory prayer and nafafil prayers with your family during shehr Ramadan, where "with your family" refers to a congregation.

Insha Allah, someone will correct these misconceptions.

The taraweeh is an excellent bidah innovated by the second caliph.  The following links can be seen for explanation:

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/laws-and-practices-why-do-shiah-avoid-tarawih-congregations

https://shiapen.com/blog/chapter-one-the-lies-innovations-conjectures-behind-tarawih

Edited March 23 by Muslim2010

[Abu_Zahra]

1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

The taraweeh is an excellent bidah innovated by the second caliph.  The following links can be seen for explanation:

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/laws-and-practices-why-do-shiah-avoid-tarawih-congregations

https://shiapen.com/blog/chapter-one-the-lies-innovations-conjectures-behind-tarawih

These authors and many others often rely on a hadith narrated by Abu Hurayra, to imply that Umar was the one who started the practice of tarawih.

Strangely the same narration that they quote includes the following:

I went out in the company of ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups – a man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him.

So if this narration is accurate, people were already praying the nawafil in congregations and Umar simply grouped the smaller congregations into a larger congregation.

[Simple thinking]

1 hour ago, Abu_Zahra said:

These authors and many others often rely on a hadith narrated by Abu Hurayra, to imply that Umar was the one who started the practice of tarawih.

Strangely the same narration that they quote includes the following:

I went out in the company of ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups – a man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him.

So if this narration is accurate, people were already praying the nawafil in congregations and Umar simply grouped the smaller congregations into a larger congregation.

There are numerous sahih Shia Hadiths that support the assertion that taraweeh in congregation is a bidah. 

Now, you can go pray taraweeh at the mosque by yourself, and that is OK, but according to Shia sources, praying in congregation is a bidah. 

Also, in regards to the Hadith I sent, I believe you are able to pray, but only nafila with your family rather than taraweeh in congregation. Correct me if I’m wrong.

[Abu_Zahra]

5 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

There are numerous sahih Shia Hadiths that support the assertion that taraweeh in congregation is a bidah. 

If you say they are numerous and that they are saheeh, then we can only take your word for it. 

In the article that you presented we see only one single narration (not clear whether it's authentic)

5 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

Now, you can go pray taraweeh at the mosque by yourself, and that is OK, but according to Shia sources, praying in congregation is a bidah. 

So we reject the narrations that claim that people were praying in small groups and Umar united them behind one single Qari?

Interestingly the Qari who he apparently united them behind (Ubay ibn Ka'b) was one of the earliest Shi'a of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)

5 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

Also, in regards to the Hadith I sent, I believe you are able to pray, but only nafila with your family rather than taraweeh in congregation. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Praying nawafil with the family would still be a congregational prayer. 

[Irfani313]

9 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Wa alaikum as salam

It isn't necessarily a misconception.  There are some interesting counter arguments to the idea that taraweeh is an innovation:

https://shiareformist.wordpress.com/2016/09/11/taraweeh/

Prove it please!! 

[Simple thinking]

14 minutes ago, Abu_Zahra said:

If you say they are numerous and that they are saheeh, then we can only take your word for it. 

In the article that you presented we see only one single narration (not clear whether it's authentic)

I’ll see if I can find narrations and post them later.

14 minutes ago, Abu_Zahra said:

So we reject the narrations that claim that people were praying in small groups and Umar united them behind one single Qari?

Interestingly the Qari who he apparently united them behind (Ubay ibn Ka'b) was one of the earliest Shi'a of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)

I'd have to look into it, but in any case, he's not Masoom.

14 minutes ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Praying nawafil with the family would still be a congregational prayer. 

I’m a layman. I believe this video by Sheikh Wathiq Shimri clarifies the Hadith I was having trouble understanding. If anyone else wants to comment on it, that would also be helpful, insha Allah

 

https://youtu.be/EWFHLxkEO8A

[Muslim2010]

11 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

If you say they are numerous and that they are saheeh, then we can only take your word for it. 

In the article that you presented we see only one single narration (not clear whether it's authentic)

So we reject the narrations that claim that people were praying in small groups and Umar united them behind one single Qari?

Interestingly the Qari who he apparently united them behind (Ubay ibn Ka'b) was one of the earliest Shi'a of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)

Praying nawafil with the family would still be a congregational prayer. 

The simple question arises here  that (instead of a self created text as referred by your side in last post), a layman may like to know "what is the fatwa / religious view of the prominent Shia Marja's of our time about Tarawih / congregational prayers in Ramzan"?

They are most knowledgeable Shia scholars in present time instead of any one else.

wasalam

Edited March 24 by Muslim2010

[Abu_Zahra]

1 hour ago, Muslim2010 said:

The simple question arises here  that (instead of a self created text as referred by your side in last post), a layman may like to know "what is the fatwa / religious view of the prominent Shia Marja's of our time about Tarawih / congregational prayers in Ramzan"?

Feel free to ask the question. If you're interested, you can also ask them for the view of Allamah al Hilli and Shareef al Murtadha

[Abu_Zahra]

12 hours ago, Irfani313 said:

Prove it please!! 

You mean you would like me to summarize the counter arguments that are presented in the article?

In short:

-to claim that taraweeh is an innovation (and therefore haram) is problematic since the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) did in fact perform this prayer with a congregation (even if it was only for 1 or 2 nights) and his reason for turning the people away was not due to the prayer itself being problematic.

-while the Sunni narrations claim that this only occured for a few nights, apparently various shia hadith in tahdheebul ahkam claim that the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) performed such prayers with a congregation repeatedly

-the hadith used to suggest that Umar innovated the practice of taraweeh actually states that people were praying in small congregations in the masjid, so the only apparent innovation here would have been to join the smaller groups into one large group 

-the claim that nawafil cannot be offered in the masjid is inconsistent with the numerous narrations and instances of the aimmah (عليه السلام) performing mustahab prayers in masajid 

-the idea that this is a sunni practice is inconsistent with the fact that it was a follower of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) who was apparently appointed by Umar to lead taraweeh

-the hadith attributed to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in Rawdatul Kaafi claiming that taraweeh is an innovation has a weak chain 

-the argument that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) tolerated taraweeh because he didn't want to lose followers is inconsistent with the fact that he had refused to rule by the sunnah of the first two caliphs as well as other narrations confirming him to be someone who didn't compromise in matters of religion. 

 

[Guest Guest110]

Sheikh Allahyari refutes and goes into detail why Taraweeh is indeed a great Bid'ah & according to the teachings/Ahadith of the Ahlulbayt (as):

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rydaMSOYcmw&t=3332s

[Muslim2010]

1 hour ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Feel free to ask the question. If you're interested, you can also ask them for the view of Allamah al Hilli and Shareef al Murtadha

Thanks for your response, but what is the fatwa / religious view of the shia scholars / Mar'aja of our time on the Taraweeh / prayer in congregation in Ramzan?

Like what is view of Ayat ullah Khameni, Ayat ullah Sistani and other Shia Marajy kram of our time?

Would you please post their views / fatwa here to verify the claims made so far about this issue?

wasalam

Edited March 24 by Muslim2010

[layman]

I live among Sunnis Majority. Taraweeh is important activity during Ramadan.

Many of them who participate in taraweeh prayer, feels that it is sort of important to do it in congregation for more blessings and sign of unity among muslims in the community.

However, there is not firm agreement on how many raka'at and what to read between each two raka'at. Also, some Imams would read very long surahs, and many will not able to follow it.  We all know, congregation prayer should not take that long because we have to consider the people physical conditions. 

 I do not see sunni muslims in my place of stay who enter the masjid for friday prayer and right after the azan, they will make 2 raka'at sunnat prayers individually even though there many people are presence.  Why not do it in congregation!!! It would be good innovation then! Infact, they should make all sunnat prayers in congregation, and establish the highest level of innovation!!

Wallahualam.

[Cool]

On 3/24/2023 at 12:14 AM, Abu_Zahra said:

So if this narration is accurate, people were already praying the nawafil in congregations and Umar simply grouped the smaller congregations into a larger congregation.

Hmmm, what do you think about this action of Umar? Was he not aware of the fact that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) prohibited the nawafil in congregation?

So instead of correcting them and calling them to the sunnah of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), he invented his own sunnah by grouping them into larger congregation. Do you really think he has this authority?

[Cool]

On 3/23/2023 at 10:19 PM, Muslim2010 said:

The following links can be seen for explanation:

https://www.al-islam.org/articles/laws-and-practices-why-do-shiah-avoid-tarawih-congregations

Here are the ahadith mentioned in that article:

The Prophet (s) said: “O people! Perform your prayers at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is what he performs at his home, except the compulsory (congregational) prayer."

[Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 9, book 92, number 393]
[al-Nasa’i, Sunan, volume 3, p. 161, p. 198]

• Once Abdullah bin Mas’ud asked the Prophet (s): “Which is better; to pray in my house or in the mosque?” The Prophet (s) replied: “Do you not see how near to the mosque my house is? To pray in my house is more beloved to me than to pray in the mosque except for the obligatory prayers.”

[Ibn Majah, Sunan, volume 1, page 439, number 1378]

• Narrated Zayd bin Thabit: Allah's Apostle (s) made a small room (with a palm leaf mat). He (s) came out (of his house) and prayed in it. Some men came and joined him in his prayer. Then again the next night they came for the prayer, but the Prophet (s) delayed and did not come out to them. So they raised their voices and knocked the door with small stones (to draw his attention). He came out to them in a state of anger, saying, “You are still insisting (on your deed) that I fear this prayer might become obligatory on you. So, O you people! offer this prayer at your homes, for the best prayer of a person is the one which he offers at home, except the compulsory (congregational) prayer.”

[Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 8, book 73, number 134]

Ahh but Umar never knew all this, so what he did was not a bid'ah lol. 

Edited March 25 by Cool

[Simple thinking]

Ibn Omar has an interesting take on taraweeh in congregation, he says....
 

A man come and Asked Ibn Omar ( Son of Omar b. Al-Khattab ) about Al-Taraweeh Prayer and said :Shall I pray behind the Imam in the Month of Ramadan? Ibn Omar replied : Will you want to hear the Imam like A Donkey? "
 

————————

Narrated Abdul-Razaq from Al-Thawry from Mansour from Mujahid that he said :

A man came to Ibn Omar and Asked him : Shall I pray behind the Imam in Ramadan? He Ibn Omar replied: Do you read the Holy Quraan?
The Man said: Yes Ibn Omar replied: Will you want to here the Imam like A Donkey? , Pray in your Home. "

 

 

Sunni sources:

Sunan al-kubra,Vol 2,Page 29 696,No#4608 Musanaf Abdulrazaq, Vol 4, page 264, No#7742 Musanaf Ibn Abi Shaybah Vol 5,No#7926, page 162

[Abu_Zahra]

6 hours ago, Cool said:

Hmmm, what do you think about this action of Umar? Was he not aware of the fact that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) prohibited the nawafil in congregation?

This hadith is usually presented as the argument that Umar introduced taraweeh. If it's false then it can't be used as an argument. If it's authentic, then it shows that he wasn't the one who introduced nawafil in congregation.

Moving on to your question, there are also two options.  

1. Congregational nawafil were prohibited (in which case Umar and every caliph after him including Imam Ali (عليه السلام) apparently tolerated this prohibited act)

2. Congregational nawafil weren't prohibited. 

[Guest Taraweeh Is Bid'ha]

Tarawih Prayer refers to Nafilah prayers performed at night in the holy Month of Ramadan, after salat of Isha.[1]

 Tarawih prayer is offered by Ahlul Sunna in congregation, ordered by their second caliphate.[2] The prayers are offered in two or more raka‘āt. The Holy Prophet of Islam never offered such prayer in congregation, according to some traditions that have been narrated from Ahlul Bayt (pbuth). Moreover, offering Nafila (mustahhab) prayers in congregation are considered as Bid‘ah, that we are forbidden to do, according to the traditions[3]. [4]

 

[1] . Sa`di Abu Habib, al-Qamus al-Fiqhi Loghatan wa Istilahan, Pg. 155.

[2] . In this regards please refer to: Ibn al-Sharaf al-Noori, Sharhul Arbaeen al-nawiyyah fi al-Ahadith al-Sahihat al-Nabaviyah, Pg. 25.

[3] . Refer to: Shikh Hurr Ameli, Wasael al-Shia, Vol. 8, Pg. 44, Chapter “Adam e Jawazel Jamaat fi Salatel Nawafil fi Shahr –e- Ramadan wa la fi gheirehee”.

[4] . Ayatollah Jafar Sobhani, al-Insaf fi Masael e Dama fiha al-Khilaf, Pg. 381.

More Hadith From Our Imams:

• “Verily, the offering of nafila (recommended prayers) in congregation during the nights of Ramadan is an innovation… O people! do not say nafila prayers of Ramadan in congregation…. Without doubt, performing a minor act of worship which is according to the sunna is better than performing a major act of worship which is an innovation.”

[al-Hurr al-`Amili, Wasa’il al-Shi`ah, volume 8, page 45]

Ali Bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Hamaad Bin Isa, from Ibrahim Bin Usman, from Sulaym Bin Qays Al-Hilaly who said: Amir-ul-Momineen (asws) preached, so he (asws) Praised Allah (azwj) and Extolled Him (azwj), then sent greetings of peace Salam upon the Prophet (saww), then said: Indeed From the fears what I (asws) fear for you are two categories – following of desires and long hopes.

By Allah (azwj), they would disperse from me (asws) if I (asws) were to order the people not to gather in the Month of Ramadhan except for the obligatory (Prayers) and make it known to them that their gathering for the optional Prayers (Nawaafil) is an innovation. So some of the people in my (asws) army would call out to the ones who are fighting alongside me (asws), O people of Al-Islam The Sunnah of Umar has been changed. He (asws) is preventing us from the optional Prayer in the Month of Ramadhan, and I (asws) had feared that there would be a revolt in a section of my (asws) army. What will be meted out from this community from the sectarianism and the obedience to the imams of the misguidance and their calling to the Fire
Al Kafi 8 #21

 

[Abu_Zahra]

For anyone who is interested in learning more about this topic I highly recommend this excellent video by Dr Kamoonpuri where he presents evidence from our books supporting the sunnah of Qiyamul Layl in congregation 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LxqGFB0X0Nw

[Cool]

7 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

If it's false then it can't be used as an argument. 

Actually you don't have the idea how many ahadith they have in their books which we can present as argument. Here is one more:

في كنز العمال:"عن أُبي بنِ كعب : أنَّ عمرَ بنَ الخطّابِ أمرَه أنْ يصلّيَ بالليل في رمضانَ ، فقالَ :ـ إنَّ الناسَ يصومونَ النهارَ ، ولا يحسنونَ أنْ يقرأوا ، فلو قرأتَ عليهم بالليل ، فقالَ :ـ يا أميرَ المؤمنينَ! هذا شيءٌ لم يكنْ!! فقالَ :ـقد علمتُ ،ولكنَّه حَسَنٌ! فصلّى بهم عشرينَ ركعةً."(المتقي الهندي،علاء الدين، كنز العمال،ج٨ ،ح ٢٣٤٧١/٤٠٩

The phrase هذا شيءٌ لم يكنْ indicates that the practice introduced by Umar was not present before he authorized it. 

7 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

. If it's authentic, then it shows that he wasn't the one who introduced nawafil in congregation.

If it is authentic, sufficient would be his words which mentions the taraweeh as bid'ah

Here is that hadith, have a look at it:

Narrated Abu Hurayra: Allah's Apostle said, “Whoever prayed at night the whole month of Ramadan out of sincere faith and hoping for a reward from Allah, then all his previous sins will be forgiven.” Ibn Shihab (a sub-narrator) said, “When Allah's Apostle died, the people continued observing that (i.e. Nawafil offered individually, not in congregation), and it remained as such during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr and in the early days of ‘Umar's Caliphate.” ‘Abdur Rahman bin ‘Abdul Qari said, “I went out in the company of ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab one night in Ramadan to the mosque and found the people praying in different groups – a man praying alone or a man praying with a little group behind him.

Then, ‘Umar said, ‘In my opinion I would better collect these (people) under the leadership of one Qari (reciter) [i.e. let them pray in congregation!]'. So, he made up his mind to congregate them behind Ubayy bin Ka’b. Then, on another night, I went again in his company and the people were praying behind their reciter. On that, ‘Umar remarked, 'What an excellent bid'a (innovation in religion) this is; "

قَالَ عُمَرُ نِعْمَ الْبِدْعَةُ هَذِهِ،

You can find more ahadith here:

https://sunnah.com/bukhari/31

8 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Congregational nawafil were prohibited (in which case Umar and every caliph after him including Imam Ali (عليه السلام) apparently tolerated this prohibited act)

This time you are unaware of your own hadith record as well as historical record. ابن أبي الحديد، شرح نهج البلاغة has mentioned something important for you:

روي أن أمير المؤمنين  لما اجتمع إليه الناس بالكوفة، فسألوه أن ينصب لهم إماما يُصلى بهم صلاة التراويح في شهر رمضان، زجرهم وعرفهم أن ذلك خلاف السنة، فتركوه واجتمعوا لانفسهم، وقدّموا بعضهم، فبعث إليهم ابنه الحسن، فدخل عليهم المسجد ومعه الدرة فلما رأوه تبادروا الأبواب وصاحوا: واعمراه

8 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Congregational nawafil weren't prohibited. 

According to whom? 

أن الصلاة بالليل في شهر رمضان من النافلة جماعة بدعة، وكذلك الحال في صلاة الضحى وأنَّ البدعة ضلالة وهي في النار

 

[Cool]

3 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

I highly recommend this excellent video by Dr Kamoonpuri where he presents evidence from our books supporting the sunnah of Qiyamul Layl in congregation 

Let me quote here the ahadith:

1.

محمّد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن محمّد بن عيسى ، عن يونس ، عن أبي العبّاس وعبيد بن زرارة ، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السّلام قال : « كان رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله يزيد في صلاته في شهر رمضان ، إذا صلّى العتمة صلّى بعدها ، فيقوم الناس خلفه فيدخل ويدعهم ، ثمّ يخرج أيضاً فيجيئون ويقومون خلفه فيدخل ويدعهم مراراً ».

قال : وقال : « لا تصلّ بعد العتمة في غير شهر رمضان ».

محمّد بن الحسن بإسناده لاعن محمّد بن يعقوب ، مثله 

2. 

وبإسناده عن علي بن حاتم ، عن حميد بن زياد ، عن عبد الله (2) بن أحمد النهيكي ، عن علي بن الحسن ، عن محمّد بن زياد ، عن أبي خديجة ، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السّلام قال : « كان رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله إذا جاء شهر رمضان زاد في الصلاة ، وأنا أزيد فزيدوا

3.

وبإسناده عن عليّ بن الحسن بن فضّال ، عن إسماعيل بن مهران ، عن الحسن (3) بن الحسن المروزي ، عن يونس بن عبد الرحمن ، عن محمّد بن يحيى قال : كنت عند أبي عبدالله عليه السّلام ، فسئل : هل يزاد في شهر رمضان في صلاة النوافل ؟ فقال : « نعم ، قد كان رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله يصلّي بعد العتمة في مصلّاه ويكثر ، وكان الناس يجتمعون خلفه ليصلّوا بصلاته ، فإذا كثروا خلفه تركهم ودخل منزله ، فإذا تفرّق الناس عاد إلى مصلّاه فصلّى كما كان يصلّي ، فإذا كثر الناس خلفه تركهم ودخل ، وكان يصنع ذلك مراراً

4.

وعنه ، عن محمّد بن خالد ، عن سيف بن عميرة ، عن إسحاق بن عمّار ، عن جابر (4) بن عبد الله قال : إنّ أبا عبد الله عليه السّلام قال له : « إنّ أصحابنا هؤلاء أبوا أن يزيدوا فيه صلاتهم في رمضان ، وقد زاد رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله في صلاته في رمضان ».

5.

وعنه ، عن محمّد بن عليّ ، عن عليّ بن النعمان ، عن منصور بن حازم ، عن أبي بصير ، أنّه سأل أبا عبد الله عليه السلام : أيزيد الرجل في الصلاة في رمضان ؟

قال : « نعم ، إنّ رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله قد زاد في رمضان في الصلاة ».

 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 3/23/2023 at 1:25 AM, Simple thinking said:

Salam Alaikum 
 

Since shehr Ramadan has arrived, the usual taraweeh polemics have emerged. It appears that Wahhabis have given up trying to prove it is not bidah to pray in congregation, so they have resorted to claiming that we Shia believe in it as well, and that it is mentioned in our Hadiths. 

 

Shia References they are using:

Milath ul Akhyar vol 5 page 505

 

They are essentially arguing that this Hadith says to pray the compulsory prayer and nafafil prayers with your family during shehr Ramadan, where "with your family" refers to a congregation.

 

 

Insha Allah, someone will correct these misconceptions.

With your family means Salat in congregation? Sorry to say but thats dumbest thing i've heard in while.

People can go to masjid pray compulsory prayers in congregation and then to this date, everyone either waits for next prayer or start nawafil prayers own their own.

[gajarkahalva]

5 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

For anyone who is interested in learning more about this topic I highly recommend this excellent video by Dr Kamoonpuri where he presents evidence from our books supporting the sunnah of Qiyamul Layl in congregation 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LxqGFB0X0Nw

You should see what Sayed Moderrassi has to say about this guy. Some very odd content on this guy's channel too. He doesn't seem like a qualified scholar either.

[Abu_Zahra]

20 minutes ago, gajarkahalva said:

You should see what Sayed Moderrassi has to say about this guy. Some very odd content on this guy's channel too. He doesn't seem like a qualified scholar either.

He has presented his proof. If anyone wishes to counter it they are free to do so. 

[Muslim2010]

5 hours ago, Cool said:

Let me quote here the ahadith:

1.

محمّد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن محمّد بن عيسى ، عن يونس ، عن أبي العبّاس وعبيد بن زرارة ، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السّلام قال : « كان رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله يزيد في صلاته في شهر رمضان ، إذا صلّى العتمة صلّى بعدها ، فيقوم الناس خلفه فيدخل ويدعهم ، ثمّ يخرج أيضاً فيجيئون ويقومون خلفه فيدخل ويدعهم مراراً ».

قال : وقال : « لا تصلّ بعد العتمة في غير شهر رمضان ».

محمّد بن الحسن بإسناده لاعن محمّد بن يعقوب ، مثله 

The English translation can be seen as given below taken from the English version of Alkafi:

H 6578, Ch. 21, h 2    (Vol. 4)
Ali ibn Ibrahim has narrated from Muhammad ibn ‘Isa ibn ‘Ubayd from Yunus from abu al-‘Abbas al-Baqbaq and ‘Ubayd ibn Zurarah who has said the following:
“Abu ‘Abd Allah, ‘Alayhi al-Salam, has said that the Messenger of Allah, O Allah, grant compensation to Muhammad and his family worthy of their services to Your cause, would increase his salat (prayer) during the month of Ramadan. After al-‘Atmah (late evening salat [prayer]), he would perform more prayers. People behind would stand up (for prayer), but he would go inside and leave them. Then, after he came out, they would come and stand up behind him (for prayer), but he would leave them and go inside several times.’ He (the narrator) has said that the Imam then said, ‘You must not perform salat (prayer) after late evening prayer during the times other than the month of Ramadan.’”

Majlisi : Sahih 

Thus it has been well proven that prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) has avoided  & stopped the people by leaving  those who came behind him for praying nawafil in congregation.

wasalam

Edited March 26 by Muslim2010

[Muslim2010]

On 3/26/2023 at 5:37 PM, Cool said:

Let me quote here the ahadith:

1.

محمّد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن محمّد بن عيسى ، عن يونس ، عن أبي العبّاس وعبيد بن زرارة ، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السّلام قال : « كان رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله يزيد في صلاته في شهر رمضان ، إذا صلّى العتمة صلّى بعدها ، فيقوم الناس خلفه فيدخل ويدعهم ، ثمّ يخرج أيضاً فيجيئون ويقومون خلفه فيدخل ويدعهم مراراً ».

قال : وقال : « لا تصلّ بعد العتمة في غير شهر رمضان ».

محمّد بن الحسن بإسناده لاعن محمّد بن يعقوب ، مثله 

2. 

وبإسناده عن علي بن حاتم ، عن حميد بن زياد ، عن عبد الله (2) بن أحمد النهيكي ، عن علي بن الحسن ، عن محمّد بن زياد ، عن أبي خديجة ، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السّلام قال : « كان رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله إذا جاء شهر رمضان زاد في الصلاة ، وأنا أزيد فزيدوا

3.

وبإسناده عن عليّ بن الحسن بن فضّال ، عن إسماعيل بن مهران ، عن الحسن (3) بن الحسن المروزي ، عن يونس بن عبد الرحمن ، عن محمّد بن يحيى قال : كنت عند أبي عبدالله عليه السّلام ، فسئل : هل يزاد في شهر رمضان في صلاة النوافل ؟ فقال : « نعم ، قد كان رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله يصلّي بعد العتمة في مصلّاه ويكثر ، وكان الناس يجتمعون خلفه ليصلّوا بصلاته ، فإذا كثروا خلفه تركهم ودخل منزله ، فإذا تفرّق الناس عاد إلى مصلّاه فصلّى كما كان يصلّي ، فإذا كثر الناس خلفه تركهم ودخل ، وكان يصنع ذلك مراراً

4.

وعنه ، عن محمّد بن خالد ، عن سيف بن عميرة ، عن إسحاق بن عمّار ، عن جابر (4) بن عبد الله قال : إنّ أبا عبد الله عليه السّلام قال له : « إنّ أصحابنا هؤلاء أبوا أن يزيدوا فيه صلاتهم في رمضان ، وقد زاد رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله في صلاته في رمضان ».

5.

وعنه ، عن محمّد بن عليّ ، عن عليّ بن النعمان ، عن منصور بن حازم ، عن أبي بصير ، أنّه سأل أبا عبد الله عليه السلام : أيزيد الرجل في الصلاة في رمضان ؟

قال : « نعم ، إنّ رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله قد زاد في رمضان في الصلاة ».

 

The other hadith from our sources for Prohibition of Nawafil in Congregation may also be seen at the following link:

10062:

محمد بن علي بن الحسين بأسانيده عن زرارة ومحمد بن مسلم والفضيل أنهم سألوا أبا جعفر الباقر وأبا عبدالله الصادق (عليهما السلام) عن الصلاة في شهر رمضان نافلة بالليل في جماعة؟ فقالا: إن رسول الله (صلى الله عليه وآله) كان إذا صلى العشاء الاخرة انصرف إلى منزله، ثم يخرج من آخر الليل إلى المسجد فيقوم فيصلي، فخرج في أول ليلة من شهر رمضان ليصلي كما كان يصلي، فاصطف الناس خلفه فهرب منهم إلى بيته وتركهم، ففعلوا ذلك ثلاث ليال، فقام في اليوم الثالث على منبره فحمد الله وأثنى عليه ثم قال: أيها الناس، إن الصلاة بالليل في شهر رمضان من النافلة في جماعة بدعة، وصلاة الضحى بدعة، ألا فلا تجمعوا (1) ليلا في شهر رمضان لصلاة الليل، ولاتصلوا صلاة الضحى فان تلك معصية، ألا وإن كل بدعة ضلالة وكل ضلالة سبيلها إلى النار، ثم نزل وهو يقول: قليل في سنة خير من كثير في بدعة.
محمد بن الحسن بإسناده عن الحسين ابن سعيد، عن حماد بن عيسى، عن حريز، عن زرارة ومحمد بن مسلم والفضيل، مثله (2).

http://qadatona.org/عربي/مكتبة-الكتب/1_وسائل-الشيعة/1945_باب-عدم-جواز-الجماعة-في-صلاة-النوافل-في-شهررمضان-ولا-في-غيره-عدا-ما-استثنى

 

[Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi]

On 3/23/2023 at 9:49 PM, Abu_Zahra said:

Wa alaikum as salam

It isn't necessarily a misconception.  There are some interesting counter arguments to the idea that taraweeh is an innovation:

https://shiareformist.wordpress.com/2016/09/11/taraweeh/

The website seems to be full of misguidance honestly i'll mention it to Allahyari.

There is one thing about Sermon of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) from Al-Kafi that I'd like to mention here.

About its chain, the discussion goes as follows:

 إFrom Ali bin Ibrahim, from his father, from Hammad bin Isa, from Ibrahim bin Uthman, from Sulaym bin Qays al Hilali, he said…..

Allama Najafi: Just off the top of my head, I can tell you there are several problems and glaring weaknesses in this chain. Any scholar well-versed in Ilme Rijaal will attest that this chain either has an error in its transcription or it was fabricated by an amateur who really didn't have much info at hand on the background of narrators.

Hammad bin Isa and Ibrahim bin Uthman: a) This chain would have us believe that Hammaad bin Isa heard this narration from Ibrahim b. `Uthman who transmitted it from Sulaym b. Qays. In reality, Hammad bin Isa had no teacher/Sheikh called Ibraheem bin Uthman, and he is never known to have taken any Ahadith from a Sheikh called Ibrahim bin Uthman. So what do we do now? Well, depending on the Manhaj of Rijaal you follow, there are two possibilities:

1.) If you are a very strict, skeptical and conservative Rijaalist like me and my teachers, you will declare that some mischief monger fabricated this chain of narrators and he must have invented a person called Ibrahim bin Uthman from thin air and then made him transmit this narration to Hammaad, because Hammaad had no teacher who went by the name Ibrahim b. Uthman. OR 29 | P a g e

2.) If you are a lenient scholar of Rijaal, who is obsessed with saving as many narrations as you can from being discarded, then you will resort to speculation, and argue that it is possible that there was an error in transcribing this chain, and may be Hammad actually got this narration from a well-known teacher of his, who was called Ibrahim b. `Umar al-Yamani, for it is known that Hammaad did have a teacher of Hadith who went by the name of Ibrahim b. Umar, and may be the transcriber made an error in recording the name of Hammaad's teacher as Ibrahim b. Uthman instead of Ibrahim b. Umar, and this is quite possible, because Umar and Uthman are names easily confused. Therefore, the lenient scholars will argue that we can safely assume that Hammaad actually got this narration from his well-known teacher of Hadith, Ibrahim b. `Umar al-Yamani, and the transcriber made a mistake in recording his name, and added bin Uthman instead of bin Umar. Thus, the problem is solved, and we need not discard this chain even though the name, Ibrahim b. Uthman, is next to Hammad in the chain, because it must have actually been Ibrahim b. Umar, but the transcriber copied it wrong. Happens all the time (at least, in the dream world these lenient modern day Qummi scholars of Rijaal like to live in.)

We say to these lenient scholars of Rijaal, okay, so Ibrahim b. `Umar al-Yamani it is. No problem for us. But your problems are far from over. Ibrahim b. `Umar al-Yamani and Sulaym bin Qays: There is another major issue here, which is this: there are some scholars who have argued that there is no way Ibrahim b. `Umar al-Yamani could have narrated directly from Sulaym b. Qays, because there has to be at least one to two wasitas (intermediaries) in between Sulaym and Ibrahim. Agha Reza Mahdavi (Iranian Scholar): Excuse me, Sayyidana, but hasn‟t Sayyid Khui tried to answer this objection in his “Buhooth”. Allama Najafi: Yes, you are right. But even if we were to let this one go, there is another major issue which has to be addressed here which is the reliability of Ibrahim b. `Umar al-Yamani, Hammaad's teacher himself. After all, this narration has been narrated by Ibrahim b. Umar al-Yamani from Sulaym bin Qays al-Hilaali.

ENDS...

Now I'm no expert in ilm-ul-rijal or arabic, however i did read about it like 1.5 years ago. Havent touched anything in a while,
But especially from the last paragraph, written by this person, its very clear that this person takes shia hadiths just like sunni hadiths.

I mean, he says, Ibrahim bin Umar needs at least two people between him and Sulaim bin qays because Sulaim died long ago.

It clearly tells us he thinks shia hadiths are like sunni hadiths, i mean like A heard from B heard from C bla bla....

however, if you go back to rijal books of Tusi or Nijashi, please at least carefully read those names. The names indicate those books contain list of AUTHORS of shia not narrators. companions of imams compiled BOOKS  in era of Imams (عليه السلام) and those books were obtained by further AUTHORS by their ijaza.

so, since book of sulaim authored a BOOK, it is very likely that some of our scholars obtained that book and Hammad Ibn Isa if i'm not wrong, is from ASHAAB AL IJMA which means by IJMA ( consensus ) , hadiths transmitted by him are reliable. Opinions of one or two, coming waaaay after classical scholars, discrediting narrators that came 100s of years ago, without any proof, isn''t reliable either. thats double standards of these rijaalis.

I think somebody, really needs to come forward, study everything in detail, and refute these people.

[Abu_Zahra]

3 hours ago, Syed Ali Mehdi Shah Naqvi said:

I think somebody, really needs to come forward, study everything in detail, and refute these people.

Sure, why not, but the few attempts so far have been incredibly weak. If nobody comes up with a credible refutation then one has to ask themselves why that is. 

[kadhim]

On 3/26/2023 at 8:37 AM, Cool said:

Let me quote here the ahadith:

1.

محمّد بن يعقوب ، عن علي بن إبراهيم ، عن محمّد بن عيسى ، عن يونس ، عن أبي العبّاس وعبيد بن زرارة ، عن أبي عبد الله عليه السّلام قال : « كان رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله يزيد في صلاته في شهر رمضان ، إذا صلّى العتمة صلّى بعدها ، فيقوم الناس خلفه فيدخل ويدعهم ، ثمّ يخرج أيضاً فيجيئون ويقومون خلفه فيدخل ويدعهم مراراً ».

قال : وقال : « لا تصلّ بعد العتمة في غير شهر رمضان ».

محمّد بن الحسن بإسناده لاعن محمّد بن يعقوب ، مثله 

2. 

وبإسناده عن علي بن حاتم ، عن حميد بن زياد ، عن عبد الله (2) بن أحمد النهيكي ، عن علي بن الحسن ، عن محمّد بن زياد ، عن أبي خديجة ، عن أبي عبدالله عليه السّلام قال : « كان رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله إذا جاء شهر رمضان زاد في الصلاة ، وأنا أزيد فزيدوا

3.

وبإسناده عن عليّ بن الحسن بن فضّال ، عن إسماعيل بن مهران ، عن الحسن (3) بن الحسن المروزي ، عن يونس بن عبد الرحمن ، عن محمّد بن يحيى قال : كنت عند أبي عبدالله عليه السّلام ، فسئل : هل يزاد في شهر رمضان في صلاة النوافل ؟ فقال : « نعم ، قد كان رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله يصلّي بعد العتمة في مصلّاه ويكثر ، وكان الناس يجتمعون خلفه ليصلّوا بصلاته ، فإذا كثروا خلفه تركهم ودخل منزله ، فإذا تفرّق الناس عاد إلى مصلّاه فصلّى كما كان يصلّي ، فإذا كثر الناس خلفه تركهم ودخل ، وكان يصنع ذلك مراراً

4.

وعنه ، عن محمّد بن خالد ، عن سيف بن عميرة ، عن إسحاق بن عمّار ، عن جابر (4) بن عبد الله قال : إنّ أبا عبد الله عليه السّلام قال له : « إنّ أصحابنا هؤلاء أبوا أن يزيدوا فيه صلاتهم في رمضان ، وقد زاد رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله في صلاته في رمضان ».

5.

وعنه ، عن محمّد بن عليّ ، عن عليّ بن النعمان ، عن منصور بن حازم ، عن أبي بصير ، أنّه سأل أبا عبد الله عليه السلام : أيزيد الرجل في الصلاة في رمضان ؟

قال : « نعم ، إنّ رسول الله صلّى الله عليه وآله قد زاد في رمضان في الصلاة ».

 

I don’t see the need for the rude/mocking emoji. 
It’s possible to have vigorous reasoned disagreement and still show some decorum.

Ramadan and Laylatul Qadr, remember? Time to be on the best behavior. 

[gajarkahalva]

2 hours ago, kadhim said:

I don’t see the need for the rude/mocking emoji. 
It’s possible to have vigorous reasoned disagreement and still show some decorum.

Ramadan and Laylatul Qadr, remember? Time to be on the best behavior. 

The irony.....

[kadhim]

2 minutes ago, gajarkahalva said:

The irony.....

Do you want to play tu quoque or do you want to defend the best behavior? 

Which is it? 

Does good advice suddenly stop being good advice when the “””wrong person””” delivers it?

Edited April 12 by kadhim

[Guest reform]

On 3/26/2023 at 5:01 AM, Abu_Zahra said:

This hadith is usually presented as the argument that Umar introduced taraweeh. If it's false then it can't be used as an argument. If it's authentic, then it shows that he wasn't the one who introduced nawafil in congregation.

Moving on to your question, there are also two options.  

1. Congregational nawafil were prohibited (in which case Umar and every caliph after him including Imam Ali (عليه السلام) apparently tolerated this prohibited act)

2. Congregational nawafil weren't prohibited. 

Salam,

I, through many years (including a decade and a half ago in my early teens) have always, always tried to follow the evidence and what makes sense. 

And to be honest with you, i think having engaged in debates, and maybe myself sometimes out of love of Allah and his Messenger and the purified progeny, vehemently went after innovations, ghali practices which didn't exist until recently etc.

I've come to realise, nobody will be open minded. Look to the Quran at how communities of people responded to Messengers? By no means am i, or anyone else on either side anywhere near that level, we are all sinful people.

But consider Surah Yasin, a man went to warn his people, and he got stoned to death. Time and time again people warn groups of people who are so set in their ways, they refuse to even consider being wrong.

People seem to think Shia islam as it is today, is how it existed back then. I wish that were the case. It frankly wasn't. Scholarly orthodoxy then and now was also different.  

If you read the Quran and consider how the creator of the universe has warned you that time and time again so many communities were warned and repeatedly turned aside warners, you'll realise how not using reason, not being open minded, worshipping your own bubble have been tendencies since the beggining.

I have no opinion on this area, because the Ahadith/ the issue is muddy. I can't claim Taraweh itself is a Bi'dah nor can i claim it is not, based on the evidence. But who cares about what's true or not anymore? 

Do you know how many people actually believe the fabrication the twelfth Imam [as]'s mother is allegedly a princess from Rome?

In summary...people need to reflect on what truth means to them, if they are willing to shake the ideas they have now,, and sincerely not do these discussions just to confirm already held beliefs.

[Cool]

9 hours ago, kadhim said:

don’t see the need for the rude/mocking emoji

Salam!

The emoji which you are identifying as "rude/mocking" is mentioned as an expression of "hahaha". 

So I laughed on 26th of March in a surprising way when I saw that a brother is referring me a so called reformist "Ali Hur Kamanpuri" who runs the chanel al-islah.

And you my dear brother, have picked up that emoji on lailatul qadr, started telling me that "you dont feel the need for it" instead of asking me why I used that emoji, whether that was an expression of rudeness or mocking or something else. 

9 hours ago, kadhim said:

It’s possible to have vigorous reasoned disagreement and still show some decorum.

"Don't laugh" was not the agreed decorum in this discussions Sir. 

10 hours ago, kadhim said:

Ramadan and Laylatul Qadr, remember? Time to be on the best behavior. 

Thanks anyway

Wassalam!!

[kadhim]

On 4/12/2023 at 5:32 AM, Cool said:

Salam!

The emoji which you are identifying as "rude/mocking" is mentioned as an expression of "hahaha". 

So I laughed on 26th of March in a surprising way when I saw that a brother is referring me a so called reformist "Ali Hur Kamanpuri" who runs the chanel al-islah.

And you my dear brother, have picked up that emoji on lailatul qadr, started telling me that "you dont feel the need for it" instead of asking me why I used that emoji, whether that was an expression of rudeness or mocking or something else. 

"Don't laugh" was not the agreed decorum in this discussions Sir. 

Thanks anyway

Wassalam!!

I did not notice the date. So the LQ part is my mistake. I’ll take ownership for that error.

The Ramadan part however remains, as does the mocking part, which, let’s be honest, is what you were doing in this case. You can be honest about that and take ownership or not, it’s up to you. I’m not going to prolong the point. 

In my experience over many years, Abu Zahra is a pretty serious, evidence-based orthodox sort of dude. If he shares a video, you know with some confidence that the content is backed up and well-argued at least and deserves to taken seriously on its merits. 

If you have a disagreement with the contents or conclusion of the piece, maybe just stick to answering the points rather than mocking because you find the name of the channel amusing. (Which, I’m just going to say is an odd reaction on a Shia site, given that the name al-islaah is clearly a reference to that rather famous narration from Imam Hussain (a) in the run up to Kerbala. Not exactly a joking matter)