Shirk?

[JeremySunni]

I've heard some Shia Muslims say "Ma'sha'Ali", "Ya'Ali".

They would also talk about the Imams and say:

"By listening to the voice of a person, the Imams can tell if the person was destined to go to hell or to heaven; they would thus answer his questions accordingly"

(Usool al Kafi, p. 185)

"The Imams have knowledge of all the revealed books, regardless of the languages in which they were revealed"

(Ibid, p. 227.)

My question is, do Shias not realise that this is Shirk??? These Hadiths come from your own books, Al-Kafi (your most authentic hadith book).

[Abu_Zahra]

Unfortunately modern day Shiism has been heavily contaminated by ghuluw (exaggeration)

Such practices have no basis in the Quran or authentic narrations. The school of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) is free from it. Anyone who does such things has deviated. 

[Muslim2010]

14 hours ago, JeremySunni said:

My question is, do Shias not realise that this is Shirk??? These Hadiths come from your own books, Al-Kafi (your most authentic hadith book).

The answer is that you do not understand the meaning of the hadith that have been quoted  possibly their translation is a misquoted text presented by yourself instead of true English translation.

Also your understanding of tauheed / oneness of Allah is poor as sunnis are believers of the physical hand, face, leg of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) like an idol or god of hindus.

Edited March 22 by Muslim2010

[layman]

On 3/22/2023 at 11:13 AM, JeremySunni said:

I've heard some Shia Muslims say "Ma'sha'Ali", "Ya'Ali".

They would also talk about the Imams and say:

"By listening to the voice of a person, the Imams can tell if the person was destined to go to hell or to heaven; they would thus answer his questions accordingly"

(Usool al Kafi, p. 185)

"The Imams have knowledge of all the revealed books, regardless of the languages in which they were revealed"

(Ibid, p. 227.)

My question is, do Shias not realise that this is Shirk??? These Hadiths come from your own books, Al-Kafi (your most authentic hadith book).

1.  We say MashaAllah and not Ma'sha Ali.

2.  When we say Ya Allah, it means we acknowledge that Allah is the Rabb in His Presence. When we say Ya Rasulullah,  we acknowledge that Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is the Prophet of Allah in the Presence of Allah.  When we say Ya Ali, we acknowledge that Ali(عليه السلام) is the Waliyullah in the Presence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

3. We all know the destination of the US Presidents such as Bush the Jr and Trump will end up where in the hereafter. They are still alive.  If we able to meet them face to face in this world, we will talk to them according to conditions. We won't say directly to them, you will be in hell, eventhough deep in our heart that they will be in hellfire. We will say something accordingly, based on the situation.

4.  The real language for all the revealed books is the language of "haqq".  What the truth behind the written Qur'an, only Allah , Prophet and those approved by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  understand it.  Even  Arab speaking people will not know the real truth about Qur'an that they read in written arabic texts.  All the revealed books in whatever languages can be understood if the person has access to the "truth".  Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is the city of knowledge and Ali (عليه السلام) is gate.  Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Ahlulbayt have access to the "truth" by the Permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Wallahualam. 

[PureExistence1]

1 hour ago, layman said:

1.  We say MashaAllah and not Ma'sha Ali.

2.  When we say Ya Allah, it means we acknowledge that Allah is the Rabb in His Presence. When we say Ya Rasulullah,  we acknowledge that Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is the Prophet of Allah in the Presence of Allah.  When we say Ya Ali, we acknowledge that Ali(عليه السلام) is the Waliyullah in the Presence of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

3. We all know the destination of the US Presidents such as Bush the Jr and Trump will end up where in the hereafter. They are still alive.  If we able to meet them face to face in this world, we will talk to them according to conditions. We won't say directly to them, you will be in hell, eventhough deep in our heart that they will be in hellfire. We will say something accordingly, based on the situation.

4.  The real language for all the revealed books is the language of "haqq".  What the truth behind the written Qur'an, only Allah , Prophet and those approved by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)  understand it.  Even  Arab speaking people will not know the real truth about Qur'an that they read in written arabic texts.  All the revealed books in whatever languages can be understood if the person has access to the "truth".  Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) is the city of knowledge and Ali (عليه السلام) is gate.  Muhammad ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and Ahlulbayt have access to the "truth" by the Permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Wallahualam. 

mMashaAllah, beautifully put brother.

[Guest Ya Ali]

I have never heard or seen any Ithna Ashari Shia in the world or on the internet say MashAli. That is definitely misinformation and false accusations. For if anyone does say such a thing, they have gone outside of Shia Islam. Ya Ali is not shirk, although you do not need to say it. It is simply a call upon a person as you would call upon any person, or an exclamation of their love, or a desire of help from them. It is not a calling of their worship. Shia Muslims do not believe the chosen by Allah is dead according to Quran 2:154. By the will of Allah they can still hear and see & are given sustenance by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). The understanding of Prophets, Imams & anyone chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) in Ithna Ashari Shia Islam is that it is by the will and power of Allah if He desires to give any knowledge to them. As Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says He has endowed special chosen ones with wisdom and grace. Quran 2:269 72:6 2:31

Yahya ibn ‘Abdullah has said, “I was in the presence of Imam Musa ibn Ja’far al-Kadhim and asked him: ‘Do you have Knowledge of the Unseen?’ In relation to my question, he become upset and said to me, ‘From this type of question, the hairs on the body of a person will stand up! That which we know and we inform you about is the knowledge which has reached us from the Prophet of Allah.’”6
Rijal al-Kishi, Pages 252-253; Amali of Shaikh Mufid, Third Sitting, Page 493. For a deeper understanding on the issue of Knowledge of the Unseen, refer to the book, Mafahim al-Qur’an, Pages 321 to 383. In this section of the book, a complete discussion in relation to the Knowledge of the Unseen of the Prophet and the A’immah has been covered.

[Shabir Hijab]

On 3/21/2023 at 11:13 PM, JeremySunni said:

Usool al Kafi, p. 185

Salam Alykum. Can you provide the Chapter and Hadith?

[Eddie Mecca]

On 3/21/2023 at 11:13 PM, JeremySunni said:

I've heard some Shia Muslims say "Ma'sha'Ali", "Ya'Ali".

Wallahi, I've never heard a Shi'i say this in my life...your Wahhabi friends are misguiding you

On 3/21/2023 at 11:13 PM, JeremySunni said:

They would also talk about the Imams and say:

"By listening to the voice of a person, the Imams can tell if the person was destined to go to hell or to heaven; they would thus answer his questions accordingly"

(Usool al Kafi, p. 185)

"The Imams have knowledge of all the revealed books, regardless of the languages in which they were revealed"

(Ibid, p. 227.)

The Imams (a) are extensions of the Prophet (s) and they (a) are the heirs of his (s) knowledge so such statements are conceivable...Islam is the summarization and grand culmination of all previous faith traditions...also, for example, there are statements in al-Kafi where they (a) claim to rule (derive verdicts or rulings) in accordance with the House of Dāwūd and Sulaymān (peace be upon them both)…all truth (e.g. mathematical truth, scientific truth, spiritual truth etc.) emanates and derives from the same Universal Source so don't be shocked or surprised

On 3/21/2023 at 11:13 PM, JeremySunni said:

My question is, do Shias not realise that this is Shirk??? These Hadiths come from your own books, Al-Kafi (your most authentic hadith book).

Listen, if Tehran and Riyadh can put aside their grievances and try to begin anew then shouldn't we try to do the same? Should we spend our lives taking cheap shots and attempting to score points against one another? Shouldn't we (instead) try to sincerely help and understand one another? The truth is Shi'ism has a tendency toward ghuluww on rare occasion...ghuluww is not a prevalent force within Shi'ism but it's forever lurking on the periphery...Sunnism is on the exact opposite end of the spectrum...if one reads Sunni literature with a keen eye and an engaging mind he (she) will be able to detect an implicant hatred toward Muhammad and his progeny...Sunnis must remain forever vigilant against subtle and subconscious forms of maliciousness toward Bani Hashem, the Prophet (s) and Ahlul Bayt (a) on the one hand...and Shi'is must guard against doctrinal extremism and the tendency toward exaggeration on the other   

Edited March 24 by Eddie Mecca

[Abu_Zahra]

12 hours ago, Guest Ya Ali said:

I have never heard or seen any Ithna Ashari Shia in the world or on the internet say MashAli. That is definitely misinformation and false accusations

Unfortunately it has become a trend among some of the self-styled neo 'Akhbaris' from the Indian subcontinent (in reality they have very little in common with the actual classical Akhbari school)

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

Quote

 

My question is, do Shias not realise that this is Shirk???

Kindly, define this term / concept "Shirk"?

[علوي]

Salam alaikom

On 3/22/2023 at 2:13 PM, JeremySunni said:

I've heard some Shia Muslims say "Ma'sha'Ali",

This is incorrect. No shia say "ما شاء علي".

On 3/22/2023 at 2:13 PM, JeremySunni said:

"Ya'Ali".

We do say "يا علي". However, as was mentioned in an above post, when we shia say "Ya Ali", we don't mean it in the same way as we say "Ya Allah". When we say "Ya Ali", we know that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) relies on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for everything. We're just asking him to intercede for us before Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Allah actually commands us to do this in the holy Quran:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَابْتَغُوا إِلَيْهِ الْوَسِيلَةَ
"O you who have faith! Be wary of Allah, and seek the means of recourse to Him." (Surah al-Ma'idah 5:35)

The "وسيلة" that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) mentions here means the prophets and imams. 

On 3/22/2023 at 2:13 PM, JeremySunni said:

They would also talk about the Imams and say:

"By listening to the voice of a person, the Imams can tell if the person was destined to go to hell or to heaven; they would thus answer his questions accordingly"

(Usool al Kafi, p. 185)

"The Imams have knowledge of all the revealed books, regardless of the languages in which they were revealed"

(Ibid, p. 227.)

My question is, do Shias not realise that this is Shirk??? These Hadiths come from your own books, Al-Kafi (your most authentic hadith book).

I couldn't find the first hadeeth, but there is a chapter with a name similar to the second one you mentioned: "The Imams ((عليه السلام).) have with all the books that Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has revealed and that they know them even the language in them are different".

There is no problem in believing this and no, it is not shirk. It is not shirk because we believe that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has granted the prophets (A) and imams (A) portions of His knowledge. The prophets and imams don't have this knowledge independently, rather they rely on Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for such knowledge.

Shirk would be if we said that the prophets and imams knew all the languages without Allah helping them. However, we believe that everything the prophets and imams knew or did was from the power of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

لا حول ولا قوة الا بالله

[Diaz]

I am almost mid 20’s and I have never heard anyone say that word, first time in my whole life. 

[Muslim2010]

On 3/22/2023 at 10:54 PM, Muslim2010 said:

The answer is that you do not understand the meaning of the hadith that have been quoted  possibly their translation is a misquoted text presented by yourself instead of true English translation.

Also your understanding of tauheed / oneness of Allah is poor as sunnis are believers of the physical hand, face, leg of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) like an idol or god of hindus.

View of Sunnah on Allah’s Face, Eyes, Hands, Fingers, Leg, Foot and Seeing Allah”

Allāh (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ‎) has a real face. His face is most perfect and majestic.

Allāh (ﷻ) has real eyes. His eyes are most perfect

Allāh (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ‎) has real hands. His hands are most perfect. Both Hands Are Right Hands

Allāh (ﷻ) has real fingers. His fingers are most perfect.

Allāh (ﷻ) has a real leg (or shin). His leg is most perfect. Yet, it is totally different from the legs of the creation.

The Prophet (ﷺ) tells us about Allah’s leg. Abu Sa’id al-Khudri (رضي الله عنه) reported that the Prophet (ﷺ) said:

“Our Lord will show His leg (on Judgment Day). So, every believing man and woman will make sujūd to Him. But not so for those who pretended to make sujūd in the first life for showoff and reputation. They will try to make sujūd, but their back will turn into one block.”

[This was recorded by al-Bukhari (4919) and Muslim (183)]

Allāh (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ‎ ) has a real foot. His foot is most perfect. Yet, it is totally different from the feet of the creation.

Anas and Abu Hurayrah (رضي الله عنه) reported that the Prophet (ﷺ) said:

“(In the hereafter,) more and more (disbelievers) will be thrown into hell, and hell will say, “Is there more?” Finally, the Lord of dignity will place His foot over it. It will then shrink down and say, “(I have) enough, (I have) enough-by Your Honor.”

[This was recorded by al-Bukhārī (4848-4850) and Muslim (2846, 2848)]

https://preciousgemsfromthequranandsunnah.wordpress.com/2021/01/19/allahs-face-eyes-hands-fingers-leg-foot-and-seeing-allah/

 

These words of sunnah given in their authentic books can be compared and refuted by Shia through the verses of quran and hadith given in Al kafi. The details can be seen at the link given below:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027486-allahswt-al-kafishia-vs-bukharisunni-hadith/

Edited March 25 by Muslim2010

[Eddie Mecca]

^^^Yeah, that's another thing Sunnism must remain vigilant against...excessive literalism and gross anthropomorphism

[علوي]

2 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

View of Sunnah on Allah’s Face, Eyes, Hands, Fingers, Leg, Foot and Seeing Allah”

Allāh (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ‎) has a real face. His face is most perfect and majestic.

Allāh (ﷻ) has real eyes. His eyes are most perfect

Allāh (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ‎) has real hands. His hands are most perfect. Both Hands Are Right Hands

Allāh (ﷻ) has real fingers. His fingers are most perfect.

Allāh (ﷻ) has a real leg (or shin). His leg is most perfect. Yet, it is totally different from the legs of the creation.

The Prophet (ﷺ) tells us about Allah’s leg. Abu Sa’id al-Khudri (رضي الله عنه) reported that the Prophet (ﷺ) said:

“Our Lord will show His leg (on Judgment Day). So, every believing man and woman will make sujūd to Him. But not so for those who pretended to make sujūd in the first life for showoff and reputation. They will try to make sujūd, but their back will turn into one block.”

[This was recorded by al-Bukhari (4919) and Muslim (183)]

Allāh (سُبْحَانَهُ وَتَعَالَىٰ‎ ) has a real foot. His foot is most perfect. Yet, it is totally different from the feet of the creation.

Anas and Abu Hurayrah (رضي الله عنه) reported that the Prophet (ﷺ) said:

“(In the hereafter,) more and more (disbelievers) will be thrown into hell, and hell will say, “Is there more?” Finally, the Lord of dignity will place His foot over it. It will then shrink down and say, “(I have) enough, (I have) enough-by Your Honor.”

[This was recorded by al-Bukhārī (4848-4850) and Muslim (2846, 2848)]

https://preciousgemsfromthequranandsunnah.wordpress.com/2021/01/19/allahs-face-eyes-hands-fingers-leg-foot-and-seeing-allah/

 

These words of sunnah given in their authentic books can be compared and refuted by Shia through the verses of quran and hadith given in Al kafi. The details can be seen at the link given below:

https://www.shiachat.com/forum/topic/235027486-allahswt-al-kafishia-vs-bukharisunni-hadith/

 

2 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

^^^Yeah, that's another thing Sunnism must remain vigilant against...excessive literalism and gross anthropomorphism

Sa7ee7.

And they also believe that we can literally see Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

Quote

حَدَّثَنَا إِسْحَاقُ بْنُ إِسْمَاعِيلَ، حَدَّثَنَا سُفْيَانُ، عَنْ سُهَيْلِ بْنِ أَبِي صَالِحٍ، عَنْ أَبِيهِ، أَنَّهُ سَمِعَهُ يُحَدِّثُ، عَنْ أَبِي هُرَيْرَةَ، قَالَ قَالَ نَاسٌ يَا رَسُولَ اللَّهِ أَنَرَى رَبَّنَا يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ قَالَ ‏"‏ هَلْ تُضَارُّونَ فِي رُؤْيَةِ الشَّمْسِ فِي الظَّهِيرَةِ لَيْسَتْ فِي سَحَابَةٍ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالُوا لاَ ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ هَلْ تُضَارُّونَ فِي رُؤْيَةِ الْقَمَرِ لَيْلَةَ الْبَدْرِ لَيْسَ فِي سَحَابَةٍ ‏"‏ ‏.‏ قَالُوا لاَ ‏.‏ قَالَ ‏"‏ وَالَّذِي نَفْسِي بِيَدِهِ لاَ تُضَارُّونَ فِي رُؤْيَتِهِ إِلاَّ كَمَا تُضَارُّونَ فِي رُؤْيَةِ أَحَدِهِمَا ‏"‏ ‏.‏

Abu Hurairah said: The people asked: Messenger of Allah! Shall we see our lord, the Exalted, on the Day of resurrection? He replied: Do you feel any trouble in seeing the sun at noon when it is not in the cloud? They said: No. He asked: Do you feel any trouble in seeing the moon on the night when it is full and not in the cloud? They replied: No. He said: By him in whose hand my soul is, you will not feel any trouble in seeing him except as much as you feel in seeing any of them.

Sunan Abi Dawud 4730
Chapter 1696: The Vision Of Allah, Book 42: Model Behavior of the Prophet (Kitab Al-Sunnah)
Grade: Sahih (Al-Albani)
https://sunnah.com/abudawud:4730

However, Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says in his honourable book:

 لَنْ تَرَانِي
‘You shall not see Me.' (Surah al-A'raf 7:143)

[Cool]

On 3/22/2023 at 8:13 AM, JeremySunni said:

I've heard some Shia Muslims say "Ma'sha'Ali", "Ya'Ali".

Saying "Ya Ali" or "Ya Muhammad" doesn't make someone mushrik. 

As for the case of "Masha Ali", no shia say that. "Ma-sha Allah", "In-Sha Allah" are what we say.

By the way Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is also "Al-Ali", He is Aliyul Azeem as well and to Him belongs all the "asma al husna". So if anyone is saying "Ma-sha Ali", you need to know the intention of the person (whether he is calling the name of a mukhlas servant of Allah or calling Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) with one of His asma al husna) to pass any judgement against him. 

On 3/22/2023 at 8:13 AM, JeremySunni said:

By listening to the voice of a person, the Imams can tell if the person was destined to go to hell or to heaven; they would thus answer his questions accordingly"

وَعَلَى الْأَعْرَافِ رِجَالٌ يَعْرِفُونَ كُلًّا بِسِيمَاهُمْ

7:46) and on the most elevated places there shall be men who know all by their marks

So there will be men on Aaraaf who knows everyone by their marks and Quran has also quoted their dialogue:

وَنَادَىٰ أَصْحَابُ الْأَعْرَافِ رِجَالًا يَعْرِفُونَهُمْ بِسِيمَاهُمْ قَالُوا مَا أَغْنَىٰ عَنْكُمْ جَمْعُكُمْ وَمَا كُنْتُمْ تَسْتَكْبِرُونَ

7:48) And the dwellers of the most elevated places shall ca!l out to men whom they will recognize by their marks saying: Of no avail were to you your amassings and your behaving haughtily:

The ones about whom you are complaining, we recognize them as the "Rijaal of A'araaf". 

On 3/22/2023 at 8:13 AM, JeremySunni said:

The Imams have knowledge of all the revealed books, regardless of the languages in which they were revealed"

That is true. Imagine if there are no such personalities, who will be obeying the following divine command:

وَلْيَحْكُمْ أَهْلُ الْإِنْجِيلِ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ فِيهِ

5:47) And the followers of the Injeel should have judged by what Allah revealed in it; 

فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ ۖ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ عَمَّا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ ۚ لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنْكُمْ شِرْعَةً وَمِنْهَاجًا

5:48) therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you; for every one of you did We appoint a law and a way,

[Muslim2010]

On 3/22/2023 at 8:13 AM, JeremySunni said:

My question is, do Shias not realise that this is Shirk??? These Hadiths come from your own books, Al-Kafi (your most authentic hadith book).

Where is OP in defense of his claims? 

SC has not seen him for last 7 days. 

[JeremySunni]

It was narrated from Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stood among us and said: “Those who came before you of the people of the Book split into seventy-two sects, and this ummah will split into seventy-three: seventy-two in Hell and one in Paradise, and that is the jamaa’ah (main body of Muslims).”

[Muslim2010]

18 hours ago, JeremySunni said:

It was narrated from Mu’aawiyah ibn Abi Sufyaan (may Allaah be pleased with him) that he said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stood among us and said: “Those who came before you of the people of the Book split into seventy-two sects, and this ummah will split into seventy-three: seventy-two in Hell and one in Paradise, and that is the jamaa’ah (main body of Muslims).”

1- The quoted hadith text does not have any reference for its verification.

2- Muawiya bin Abi Sufyan is not a reliable narrator due to his hatred towards Ahl albayat (عليه السلام) and his actions resulted in the killing of Imam Ali (عليه السلام)., Imam Hassan and Imam Hussain (عليه السلام). The following hadith provides its glimpse:

 Sahih Muslim, chapter virtues of Imam Ali.

English Translation:

Sa’ad bin Abbi Waqas reported:

Moawiya bin Abu Sufyan asked him what prevents you to say bad words (abusive words) to Abu Turab (Ali), Sa’ad replied I won’t say abusive words for Ali until I remember these three things, If I would get one of those I would love it more than red Camels. I heard it when the Prophet made him Caliph while he was leaving for Tabuk Ali said to the Holy Prophet that O holy Prophet you are making me Caliph for women and children, the Holy Prophet replied are you not happy that you are to me as Aaron to Moses, the only difference is there is no Prophet after me.I heard at the day of Khaiber, The Holy Prophet said surely I will give the flag of Islam to that person who loves Allah and his Prophet also Allah and his Prophet love him. We all were hoping to get the flag of Islamic army. The holy Prophet ordered bring Ali to me, Ali came while he is having eye sore , The Holy Prophet put saliva on Ali’s eyes and granted him the flag. When this verse was revealed that Allah wants to take away any uncleanliness from you O Ahlalbait and purify you, The Holy Prophet called Ali , Fatima , Hassan and Hussain and said : O Allah these are my Ahlalbait!

Mohibuddin al Tabari in his classical book of hadith Riyad ul Nadira states that "Mu'awiya ordered Sa'd bin Abi Waqqas to curse 'Abu Turab" (Volume 3 page 194).

Ibn Hajar Asqalani in his commentary of Sahih al Bukhari "Fathul Bari" states:

"Mu'awiya issued an order to curse Hadhrath 'Ali. Upon hearing this Sa'd bin Abi Waqqas said "Even if you place a sword over my head and demand that I curse 'Ali, I will refuse to do so".

Fathul Bari, Vol. 7, Page 74, "Bab Manaqib 'Ali"

3-  The use of term Jamaah does not mean the main body of Muslim. The term Ahl sunnaa wal jama was invented by Muawaiya to use this so called label in his favor. 

The term Jamaah has been defined by Imam Ali, (the 4th caliph of sunnis) in  their sources as given:

 Imam Ali peace be upon him gave us a thorough definition for the term Jammah. Al Mutaqi Al Hindi, a prominent Sunni scholar, in Kanzu Al Umal vol 16 page 184 said that Imam Ali peace be upon him was asked:

“Who are the people of Jama’a ? Who are the people of disunity and dissension? Who are the people of Sunna (traditions of the prophet)? And who are the people of innovation”?

Imam Ali peace be upon him replied: “Now that you asked, do store in your mind what I advise you! You must not ask anyone else after I inform you! As for the people of Jama’a , they include me and whoever follows me despite their little number . That has been confirmed as the Truth by Allah’s command and his prophet (peace be upon him and his family). As for the people of disunity and religious nonconformity, they include all those who oppose me and my followers despite their large numbers. As for the people of Sunna ( traditions and practices of the prophet peace be upon him and his family), they include those who strictly abide by those traditions and practices despite their little numbers. And as for the people of innovation, they include all those who opposed Allah’s commands, contested the Quran, went up against the prophet peace be upon him and his family and observed their self made decisions and choices despite their huge numbers. The early flock had gone past. Many more flocks are yet to follow. I ask Allah to uproot those deviators from the face of Earth!”

wasalam

Edited March 30 by Muslim2010

[Guest Reform]

Salamualaykum,

The reality is, there is now an awakening among Shias, paticularly the younger generations, with respect to practises happening.

With the advent of the internet, you no longer have these 'echo' chambers where deviant practises can ferment and then somehow slip into mainstream.

I have heard of people , a small, specific, tiny minority in the subcontinent use that phrase, but it really is a tiny minority.