Electric Cars

[Quran313]

I'm not a fan of electric cars due to several reasons. Maybe one day if Toyota make a 600 mile range electric, I would consider buying a USED one if it becomes common cause I hate showing off.

Most people who buy electric cars, they want to show off. Their concern is not environment or anything like that. Just being excited to get something different and show off. You know it when you talk to them about the reason behind buying electric. Most of the times things like it's cool, my wife likes it, and things like this. Environment and gas price are not an issue. A person who can afford buy an electric, surely afford gas price.

Not all electric stations are functional. Some people stranded at the middle of the road especially in road trips. Not all electric stations are fully functional. This applies to hydrogen fuel stations as well. Some people want to charge their car, but some stations are not working. I saw a guy on youtube who went out of charge and decided to charge his car with a regular charging (not supercharge) at a store. It was cold outside and range drops as temperature goes down. He said:" I plugged in my car into the wall, but it was still losing range. The rate of losing range due to cold weather was faster than the rate of charging". Of course it wasn't supercharge but you get the point.

When it comes to repair, you have to go to dealership. You know how expendive dealership repairs are. There are few electric mechanic shops, and dealerships take advantage of this.

I prefer to drive a normal reliable car and spend the money on my health, family, people in need, etc.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Quran313

[Haji 2003]

5 hours ago, Quran313 said:

When it comes to repair, you have to go to dealership. You know how expendive dealership repairs are. There are few electric mechanic shops, and dealerships take advantage of this.

Agree that they are still relatively expensive to buy and range is an issue for some people. But:

Quote

Despite their high-tech image, electric cars actually have fewer moving parts than a car with a conventional engine, meaning there are less things to go wrong and need replacing. The government agency tasked with promoting electric cars, Go Ultra Low, estimated that an EV’s maintenance costs will be around 70% cheaper than those of diesel or petrol car over its lifetime.

https://www.carwow.co.uk/electric-cars/compare#gref

[Haji 2003]

On 9/25/2023 at 12:38 PM, notme said:

this sounds like words from someone who has never endured a layoff, death of wage earner, or other sudden life disruption.

You're speaking with someone who drives a 14 year old Honda Jazz/Fit, with 130,000 miles on the clock. 

[Haji 2003]

 

@Ashvazdanghe no prayers needed Bro. it's a matter of principle / choice.

[Ibn Tayyar]

On 9/25/2023 at 6:09 PM, Haji 2003 said:

This is very much an outlier for people buying these vehicles because they physically need them.

Most purchasers do so because they think minivans etc. look dorky. 

And then you end up with people queuing up at food banks in fairly expensive vehicles:

Most pickup trucks are better vehicles than minivans.

[notme]

On 10/1/2023 at 2:25 PM, Haji 2003 said:

You're speaking with someone who drives a 14 year old Honda Jazz/Fit, with 130,000 miles on the clock. 

Frugality and hardship are two matters.  A person can live luxuriously or frugally, and still experience economic hardship.  Almost all of us are no more than two paychecks from destitution.  But maybe things are different in UK. 

[Haji 2003]

On 10/3/2023 at 1:19 PM, notme said:

A person can live luxuriously or frugally, and still experience economic hardship

That sounds like the "grandad smoked 100 cigarettes a day and he lived to 100" type of argument.

It's a matter of probabilities, if you live within your means and are therefore able to save some money, you are more likely to be resilient in the face of hardship. In contrast, if you follow the opinion cited by someone elsewhere on this forum that paying riba is ok because you then get to enjoy things that you otherwise would not do - then an adverse event will hit you twice as hard.

I'll be clear about why I chose that pic of SUVs in particular. There's an old Harvard Business School case study about Land Rover's entry into the US car market with their SUV and one takeaway from that was the huge extent to which purchases of SUVs were emotional rather than practical. And I don't see how that has changed much in the intervening years.

So people can buy expensive cars because they make them feel good and they can also do so on credit, because they want to feel better today rather than tomorrow, but it's a bit rich to then complain if someone dares suggest that maybe living beyond your means is not such a great idea.

[notme]

8 minutes ago, Haji 2003 said:

but it's a bit rich to then complain if someone dares suggest that maybe living beyond your means is not such a great idea.

I did not say it's a good or even acceptable idea to live beyond your means. Most of us in the United States do not buy expensive cars just to look or feel cool.  Most of us drive what we can afford.  But the system here is set up to keep wealth in the hands of a few people. It's nearly impossible to save, no matter how frugally you live, and having ample income right now is no guarantee that you'll have enough to pay your bills in two months.  

What you see on TV is not the least bit like real life. Most people are sensible and still hanging on by a thread.  

[PureExistence1]

On 7/4/2023 at 6:57 AM, Irfani313 said:

Electric cars are another big scam to fleece the people, snake oil, extremely destructive to environment with all the mining goes for the rare earth materials for these highly efficient batteries. 

Salaam brother, when I was out of the country last year, I saw this documentary about how horribly destructive the mining of the materials they need to produce these cars is. I believe it was in brazil, and the environment was completely damaged, and the people that worked in the mines and in the surrounding areas were full of cancer, there were kids with all kinds of health problems and cancers and it was from the mining of this material. So it was environmentally damaging as well as damaging to humans health.

The documentary that I saw talked about how destructive it is to produce the cars for the people where the material is mined, yet how "supposedly wonderful" it is for the First world countries where these cars are being used at.

It was just a shock to me that this kind of information isn't more widely known. Like, why do I have to see a program like that in another country, yet i dont see it on regular tv here?

 

[Haji 2003]

11 hours ago, notme said:

Most of us in the United States do not buy expensive cars just to look or feel cool.  Most of us drive what we can afford. 

According to Statista the average price of a used car in the United States is about $30,000. Now it's not the median which would have been more helpful, but then again the wealthy are unlikely to be buying a used car.

Looking at US car dealerships, interestingly the price of a used Toyota Corolla is around $20,000 and that of a Honda Fit (yay) is less than $15k - i.e. half the average. These are both reliable cars with relatively low maintenance costs (at least in the UK) and obviously much better fuel consumption than an SUV.

I imagine most people are buying $30k on credit, and apparently car credit costs close to 10%. You immediately see where money is leaking out of a household budget.

Key to the problem is your use of the word 'afford'. For many people, this translates to the monthly payment that they can afford. This can mean that they actually are buying something fairly expensive, but when the cost is spread out over the course of years, it seems affordable - but only because they'll have paid an eye-watering amount of interest.

[Cool]

I would love to get a solar powered vehicle. We have access to Sun almost 12 hours in a day so charging would not be an issue if Automobile makers introduce solar powered vehicles. 

[Quran313]

On 10/5/2023 at 12:32 AM, Haji 2003 said:

According to Statista the average price of a used car in the United States is about $30,000. Now it's not the median which would have been more helpful, but then again the wealthy are unlikely to be buying a used car.

Looking at US car dealerships, interestingly the price of a used Toyota Corolla is around $20,000 and that of a Honda Fit (yay) is less than $15k - i.e. half the average. These are both reliable cars with relatively low maintenance costs (at least in the UK) and obviously much better fuel consumption than an SUV.

I imagine most people are buying $30k on credit, and apparently car credit costs close to 10%. You immediately see where money is leaking out of a household budget.

Key to the problem is your use of the word 'afford'. For many people, this translates to the monthly payment that they can afford. This can mean that they actually are buying something fairly expensive, but when the cost is spread out over the course of years, it seems affordable - but only because they'll have paid an eye-watering amount of interest.

Agree with most of the points. 30k for a car is too much. My first job car was $2300 toyota  with 120k miles on it (used cars were cheaper before covid). AC wasn't working, but it was ok. My colleague asked me how much did you buy this car? I said $2300. He said you got it for free

[Haji 2003]

18 hours ago, Quran313 said:

My first job car was $2300 toyota

Well done.

People often blame big banks, businesses etc. for the state we are all in. But GM never held a gun to someone's head and forced them to buy an over-priced SUV. A car is a wasting asset, for the vast majority of us.

18 hours ago, Quran313 said:

AC wasn't working,

Our car just does not have it. My wife does make comments about this.But London never gets so got that it's unbearable.

[notme]

I've never owned a brand new car, but if a person is working but does not have a lot of cash, it is often more attainable to buy a new car, which can be financed and has a warranty, than a safe and well maintained used car.  

In some parts of the world it is feasible to save up and buy when you can afford the whole car, but most of the United States is designed so that a person can't go to work, school, or the grocery store if they don't have a car.  

[Ashvazdanghe]

16 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

People often blame big banks, businesses etc. for the state we are all in. But GM never held a gun to someone's head and forced them to buy an over-priced SUV. A car is a wasting asset, for the vast majority of us

Salam without using selling techniques majority of people would  hold their first car until total breakdown of it which it  would lead to shutting down of majority of companies after a short period of time but on the other hand number of car companies have increased by using selling techniques by persuading people to buy a new car or change their cars even if they don't need it which  unfortunately  in countries  likewise Iran  buying a car is a saving for rainy days . 

[notme]

Many rich middle class people see their car as a status symbol or fashion statement, not just a tool. These are the same people who "need" a new car if they see their neighbor has one. 

Normal working folk drive their cars until they no longer make sense to repair.  

 

 

[Haji 2003]

On 10/11/2023 at 1:29 AM, notme said:

but if a person is working but does not have a lot of cash, it is often more attainable to buy a new car, which can be financed and has a warranty, than a safe and well maintained used car.

Yes, I have made this point before. There is a difference between affordability/attainability and being cheap.

1. Something can be affordable but expensive - because the cost is split over many years (and the interest charge is part of what makes it expensive).
2. Something can be cheap but difficult to afford/attain because the money has to be paid upfront.

GM/Ford never held a gun to someone's head and forced them to pay interest, but people often make the wrong decision through a lack of mathematical understanding and/or an inability to control their nafs.

[Haji 2003]

This is insane

Even for a rich country, this makes no sense. I'd hazard that there's a fair few people buying these, who are stretching their budgets to do so and/or committing themselves to years of excessive interest payments.
 

Quote

 

One in five cars sold in the US and Canada last year were pick-up trucks, according to data provider Jato Dynamics. Half of those, around 1.5mn vehicles, were “full-sized” pick-ups, such as the Ford F-150 or Chevrolet’s Silverado, the market where the Cybertruck will compete.

 

And
 

Quote

At Stellantis, which owns the Ram and Jeep brands, European van and US truck sales account for just under half of the company’s profits, with per-vehicle margins dwarfing those of its passenger cars. 

https://www.ft.com/content/01ac02ff-cafc-42d8-bd33-719fa1477cf3

[notme]

4 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

This is insane

Yes.  

I've heard people explain the "need" for a giant car as a matter of safety. They claim that if you've got the biggest car on the highway, you're safest in a collision.  I believe this is a widely held view.  

Making them illegal or highly taxed is a feasible solution, but it would harm large families who need a large passenger vehicle, and people who do work that needs a full size pickup.  

[Haji 2003]

12 hours ago, notme said:

I've heard people explain the "need" for a giant car as a matter of safety. They claim that if you've got the biggest car on the highway, you're safest in a collision.  I believe this is a widely held view.  

Yes.

And then we have the reality:

Quote

‘SUVs are no safer for their drivers than the average midsize or large car and not much safer than many of the most popular compact and subcompact car models. Drivers of pickup trucks are at even greater risk than drivers of SUVs. When the combined risk is considered, SUVs and pickup trucks are revealed to be significantly more dangerous than just about any car’.

https://trevinolaw.com/are-pickup-trucks-safer-than-cars-to-drive/#:~:text=Drivers of pickup trucks are,than just about any car'.

 

It's anomalies like the above that got me thinking about the references to perception in the Qur'an.

 

[Diaz]

I saw this, do you think he is right?

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CyqTFGwMC7r/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[Haji 2003]

8 hours ago, Haji 2003 said:

It's anomalies like the above that got me thinking about the references to perception in the Qur'an.

Also when it comes to people buying things because of how they 'look' rather than what they are really like also has implications for the sellers who play to that weakness, which i talk about in this blog entry:

Quote

This post is about the reasons why there is so much imperative in the Qur'an on sellers not taking advantage of their customers. The point being elaborated here is that it can be easy for sellers to take advantage of their buyers. The Qur'an uses a specific context (weights and measures) but this notion can be extended to other areas of the transaction.

 

[Haji 2003]

6 hours ago, Diaz said:

saw this, do you think he is right?

There are some aspects in which I think he is right and some with which I don't agree.

• He argues that the electricity that powers electric cars comes from fossil fuels. This may well be the case. But the point is that over time countries are trying to transition away from fossil fuels to generate electricity, with a greater mix of renewables. So obviously, there will be a period where you have the situation he refers to.
• He is careful to mention fossil fuels in general. But which ones we are talking about makes a difference. Cars are powered by petrol, whereas power stations tend to be powered by natural gas, and the latter is less bad for the environment than petrol is. Sure there are inefficiencies from converting gas to electricity, but as I said about this is a transition situation.
• He then moves onto ships and their pollution. The points he makes are valid. But you have to start somewhere and its easier for cars to make the transition than it is for ships. Though, there also seem to be some changes in that area also.

Seems to me the dude has a few Lamborghinis in his garage and does not like to feel guilty.

 

[Haji 2003]

Rather apt

given the content of this thread. I haven't checked the numbers this person is talking about, but they are shocking and they reveal a fundamental financial problem in the American economy and a problem on the part of the behaviour of large numbers of people.

https://x.com/wallstreetsilv/status/1719400191768355092?s=46&t=cSBAFSCGH9dVrM-ogKDT2Q

[Haji 2003]

This Tweet has generated some interesting comments

9% interest to buy a car. Sheesh.

[Haji 2003]

SUV's again

On 9/25/2023 at 12:09 PM, Haji 2003 said:

And then you end up with people queuing up at food banks in fairly expensive vehicles

 

Yes, there is something definitely weird about the US car market:

Quote

Brian Moody, a senior editor at Kelley Blue Book, a car industry publication, says automakers used the pandemic to shift product lines toward higher-margin products. Instead of small cars and base models, they pivoted to luxury cars and SUVs with fully loaded trims, which turn far greater profits per sale. That means “the less expensive the car, the fewer choices you have”, says Moody. Some commentators have called the trend “trimflation”. A 2023 Cox Automotive report declared that “the US new vehicle market is becoming a luxury market”, a “seismic shift” that, for many buyers, is “about as enjoyable as a sharp stick in the eye”.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2024/jan/29/us-car-costs-insurance-unaffordable

 

People equate cars with freedom, it's become a form of imprisonment.

[laithAlIRAQI]

Been contemplating upgrading from my petrol hatchback to the same newer model, but plug-in hybrid, I'm just not willing to spend 30k on a newish car. Car prices in Denmark are unfortunately ridiculous.

Edited January 29, 2024 by laithAlIRAQI

[laithAlIRAQI]

really been wanting to upgrade to this bad boy, but just cant justify the 30k usd price tag

[Haji 2003]

Build your dreams for US$9000

this car costs $9000, but US tariffs mean that it will sell for double that.

In the era of the Soviet Union, Western consumer goods were either banned or had very high tariffs. 
US now does what it accused others of doing.
 

The United States will say that the Chinese are 'dumping' cars, which have state subsidies in America. I can't understand why they then cannot have trade negotiations with the Chinese the way they do over Boeing vs. Airbus.

Of course, there is the parallel argument about China having the benefit of a massive internal market, which allows it to gain from economies of scale. That is true. But the US enjoyed that advantage post WW2 with its exports around the world.

The US is in a no-win situation. In the short term, either its consumers suffer or its industry does. In the long term will it end up like the Soviet Union? That would be a point where it simply gives up being protectionist and allows unfettered imports?

 

[Haji 2003]

Reminds me of my childhood

When I was growing up, the UK media used to run stories about how impoverished the Soviets were. We were familiar with Lada cars that only a few Russians could afford and which lacked basic functions.

How the world has changed!

There are many posts on social media, such as the one below, which illustrate the many features of Chinese-built cars that are not commonly found in British cars.

 

[Haji 2003]

On 1/29/2024 at 6:18 PM, laithAlIRAQI said:

I'm just not willing to spend 30k on a newish car.

I had a bit of a shock from the mechanics who are servicing my 2009 Honda Jazz. They reckon the clutch has gone. They thought given all the other repairs the final bill might be such that I might be better off getting another car. A day or so later the panic was over and I can likely stick with this car for another year at least.

But I did look around. A used VW id3 (fully electric) with less than 20k on the clock in the UK is about £16,000, around US$20k.

This is not bad.

But it feels like such a waste to spend that much on a car. A used (petrol) Honda Jazz with similar low mileage is still only around £10k. I might compromise on my sustainability principles and buy that instead when the time comes. 

[Future_Banker_Insha Allah]

On 3/15/2023 at 12:03 PM, Abu Hadi said:

Just a quick survey to see how many ShiaChat members drive an electric car

me who legally can't drive: 

[IraqiFeyli313]

Have you guys seen the whole Fisker Inc. fiasco? Mainly the issue with their ocean car model doesn't help the fact their stock prices are at an all-time low, and they have a backlog of cars they need to deliver to people who bought from them. Looking into the future in terms of what car I would want? I don't really want an electric car due to their cons outweighing the pros, the low mileage, long charging times, and how expensive they can be (Even though BYD exists, I wouldn't trust China with cars, but that's up to you to decide), I obviously do see the reason why electric cars should be the norm in future, just not at this moment in time. 

[Haji 2003]

BYD in Europe

 

This could be an advantage that makes it much harder for others to compete

Quote

And where other carmakers have focused on long-range batteries containing expensive nickel, manganese and cobalt (NMC), BYD has pioneered the use of the cheaper lithium iron phosphate (LFP) chemistry.

 

And even though tariffs are planned in Europe, they may not make much difference

Quote

The cheapest version of a Dolphin will start at £25,490, less than a VW ID.3.. Yet a version of the Dolphin sells for 99,800 yuan (£10,700) in China. Even accounting for extra costs because of stricter UK and European regulation, that implies a lot of leeway to absorb tariffs. A planned car factory in Hungary could export to the EU tariff-free, and an executive last week said BYD was committed to building a second.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/article/2024/jun/18/byd-china-electric-vehicle-europe-eu-tariffs-tesla

 

 

[Haji 2003]

About 2/6 Uber taxis we’ve taken in Cairo are BYD’s. Small and unrepresentative sample, perhaps.

But if it reflects a trend …

Given their spec/price ratio - their sales will likely rise exponentially.

I’d say the developing country export markets for American, European and Jap carmakers are a busted flush.