Wilayat At-Takwiniyah and the Quran

[Simple thinking]

salam alaikum

Quran 38:35

He prayed, “My Lord! Forgive me, and grant me an authority that will never be matched by anyone after me. You are indeed the Giver ˹of all bounties˺.”

 

 

Did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) not accept the dua of Solomon (عليه السلام)?? Need Clarification

[Cool]

On 2/6/2023 at 8:12 AM, Simple thinking said:

Did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) not accept the dua of Solomon (عليه السلام)?? Need Clarification

Yes Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) accepted his prayers and granted him the "Mulk" as  mentioned in the verses:

قَالَ رَبِّ اغْفِرْ لِي وَهَبْ لِي مُلْكًا لَا يَنْبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ مِنْ بَعْدِي ۖ إِنَّكَ أَنْتَ الْوَهَّابُ {35}

[Shakir 38:35] He said: My Lord! do Thou forgive me and grant me a kingdom which is not fit for (being inherited by) anyone after me;

فَسَخَّرْنَا لَهُ الرِّيحَ تَجْرِي بِأَمْرِهِ رُخَاءً حَيْثُ أَصَابَ {36}

[Shakir 38:36] Then We made the wind subservient to him; it made his command to run gently wherever he desired,

وَالشَّيَاطِينَ كُلَّ بَنَّاءٍ وَغَوَّاصٍ {37}

[Shakir 38:37] And the shaitans, every builder and diver,

وَآخَرِينَ مُقَرَّنِينَ فِي الْأَصْفَادِ {38}

[Shakir 38:38] And others fettered in chains

[Simple thinking]

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Yes Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) accepted his prayers and granted him the "Mulk" as  mentioned in the verses:

قَالَ رَبِّ اغْفِرْ لِي وَهَبْ لِي مُلْكًا لَا يَنْبَغِي لِأَحَدٍ مِنْ بَعْدِي ۖ إِنَّكَ أَنْتَ الْوَهَّابُ {35}

[Shakir 38:35] He said: My Lord! do Thou forgive me and grant me a kingdom which is not fit for (being inherited by) anyone after me;

فَسَخَّرْنَا لَهُ الرِّيحَ تَجْرِي بِأَمْرِهِ رُخَاءً حَيْثُ أَصَابَ {36}

[Shakir 38:36] Then We made the wind subservient to him; it made his command to run gently wherever he desired,

وَالشَّيَاطِينَ كُلَّ بَنَّاءٍ وَغَوَّاصٍ {37}

[Shakir 38:37] And the shaitans, every builder and diver,

وَآخَرِينَ مُقَرَّنِينَ فِي الْأَصْفَادِ {38}

[Shakir 38:38] And others fettered in chains

Then how can the Imam (عليه السلام) have Wilayat At-Takwiniyah? 

[Ashvazdanghe]

23 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

Then how can the Imam (عليه السلام) have Wilayat At-Takwiniyah? 

Salam

Definition

Wilayat At-Takwiniyahi means extraordinary power over the existence and creatures of the world. It means that God has the power to take control of everything and manage the affairs of all beings in the world[1] or a person who has reached spiritual perfection, with his permission, can make extraordinary changes in existence.[2]

Some examples of the Wilayat At-Takwiniyah are: the miracles and virtues of the prophets and imams, extraordinary works such as long-distance travel through the earth [in blink of an eye] [3] walking on water, [4] knowing the inside of others, [5] talking to animals, [6] emptying the body of the soul. [7] and possession of nature through spiritual power. [8]

What is the issue of Wilayat At-Takwiniyah?

In Islamic sources, the issue of Wilayat At-Takwiniyah is more about humans. In that question, is whether a human being can have Wilayat At-Takwiniyah or not, and if yes, what is its scope. [9]

The meaning of Wilayat At-Takwiniyah is not that a person prays and Allah does extraordinary things in response to his prayer;[10] rather, it means that a person, as a result of worshiping Allah, attains a spiritual power with which he can take control of nature. Of course, this possession takes place with Allah's permission.[11]

https://fa.wikishia.net/view/ولایت_تکوینی

 

[layman]

On 2/7/2023 at 4:47 PM, Simple thinking said:

Then how can the Imam (عليه السلام) have Wilayat At-Takwiniyah? 

Salam...

My understanding.

When a person fully submitted his self to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has full control of the person's self, the person will have some level of Wilayat At-Takwiniyah.  Anyone can attain certain level of this Wilayat, depending how much the submission of his self to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

If person makes a doa, with full submission (Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) control his self during the doa), miracle can happen.

Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Imams (عليه السلام), their nafs are fully in submission to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), meaning Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) control their life, doa, actions...the Wilayat At-Takwiniyah is presence in them and as when Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wanted to present this Wilayat (in term of knowledge,  miracles, etc) to the public through them.

For certain persons  it seem that the direction for their life is guided... this is one form of Wilayat At-Takwiniyah.  Future is very clear for them...they have GPS navigation system for their life. They have no choice to avoid the tests of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) that will come base on the GPS navigation system of their life.  

Everyone will have experienced certain level of Wilayat At-Takwiniyah in their life. This is how we come to know Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) . Can they reflect that pure Submission to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can result of miracles (strange things happen)  because Only Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) Alone can make it happen.  In reality, humans are only slaves.

لَا حَوْلَ وَلَا قُوَّةَ إِلَّا بِاللهِ العَلِيِّ العَظِيْمِ

Another way, we unite our nafs (self) with Nafs of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and this is much easier way because Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are our Wali. Also Surah Al-fatiha also asking us to be with them (even though physically  they are not with us).  The Wilayat At-Takwiniyah will come to us because of this unity with Ahlulbayt.

Wallahualam 

[Cool]

On 2/7/2023 at 1:47 PM, Simple thinking said:

Then how can the Imam (عليه السلام) have Wilayat At-Takwiniyah? 

How can have Asif bin Baqiyyah have the power to bring the throne of queen within the blink of an eye? 

قَالَ الَّذِي عِنْدَهُ عِلْمٌ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ أَنَا آتِيكَ بِهِ قَبْلَ أَنْ يَرْتَدَّ إِلَيْكَ طَرْفُكَ ۚ فَلَمَّا رَآهُ مُسْتَقِرًّا عِنْدَهُ قَالَ هَٰذَا مِنْ فَضْلِ رَبِّي لِيَبْلُوَنِي أَأَشْكُرُ أَمْ أَكْفُرُ ۖ وَمَنْ شَكَرَ فَإِنَّمَا يَشْكُرُ لِنَفْسِهِ ۖ وَمَنْ كَفَرَ فَإِنَّ رَبِّي غَنِيٌّ كَرِيمٌ {40}

[Shakir 27:40] One who had the knowledge of the Book said: I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye. Then when he saw it settled beside him, he said: This is of the grace of my Lord that He may try me whether I am grateful or ungrateful; and whoever is grateful, he is grateful only for his own soul, and whoever is ungrateful, then surely my Lord is Self-sufficient, Honored.

And how Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام) cured the blinds, made the dead alive? 

Does Prophet Suleman (عليه السلام) made any dead alive or cured any blind? If no, then why? 

And lastly, do you think that Allah's treasures & His kingdom would exhaust if He give something from it to His servant? And that there remains nothing with Him? 

[Abu_Zahra]

Wa alaikum as salam brother

There is no clear basis for such a  belief in the Quran or the authentic narrations of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). Rather it actually goes against these teachings.

Kindly refer to the following chapter of Al Itiqadaat concerning ghuluw and tafweedh

Link

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protect us from such beliefs

 

[VoidVortex]

@Abu_Zahra

Al-Saduq's boundaries of ghuluw are rejected by the majority of scholars, its better to use the contemporary mainstream view of the boundaries of ghuluw and tafweedh.

Do you reject that human beings can teleport and have extraordinary powers like reading minds. Some of our great scholars had such abilites. Or is it purely the idea of tafweedh(that Allah delegated affairs) that you reject.

[Muslim2010]

On 2/7/2023 at 1:47 PM, Simple thinking said:

Then how can the Imam (عليه السلام) have Wilayat At-Takwiniyah? 

I like to add the following words in this context:

  The Authority of Prophet and Imam (Wali):

"Wilayat," derived from wila,' means power authority or a right of certain kind. In Shi'a theology, "wilayat" is the authority invested in the Prophet and the Ahlul Bayt as representatives of Almighty Allah on this earth. 

According to the late Murtaza Mutahhari, wilayat has four dimensions: 

-The right of love and devotion (wila'-e muhabbat): This right places the Muslims under the obligation of loving the Ahlul Bayt. 

-The authority in spiritual guidance (wila-'e imamat): This reflects the power and authority of the Ahlul Bayt in guiding their followers in spiritual matters. 

-The authority in socio-political guidance (wila'-e zi 'amat): This dimension of wilayat reflects the  right that the Ahlul Bayt have to lead the Muslims in social and poitical aspects of life. 

-The authority of the universal nature (wila-e tasarruf): This dimension reflects universal power over the entire universe that the Prophet and Ahlul Bayt have been vested with by the grace of Almighty Allah.

1-The First Dimension: The Right of Love

All Muslims unanimously accept the first dimension of wilayat of Ahlul Bayt. Loving the Ahlul Bayt is one of the essential parts of the Islamic faith." The inclusion of salawat in the daily ritual prayers is a sufficient proof of this. (Verse 42:23)

2-The second Dimension: The Right of Imamate

Wila' meaning Imamate and leadership; or, in other words, the position of authority in the din               (to which matters are referred for decision), that is, a position which others should follow, should take as an example for their actions and behavior, from whom they should learn the precepts of the din; or yet again, supremacy. (hadith thaqlayn, and verse of wilaya 5:55)

3-The Third & Fourth Dimensions: Socio-Political & Universal Authority

The third and fourth dimensions of wilayat are also considered as part the essential parts of Shi'a believe." It is important to note the term "Imamate" or "Imam", encompasses all the four dimensions of wilayat. It includes the spiritual and universal authority and the social and political leadership.

The fourth dimension is the universal authority that the Prophet and the Ahlul Bayt have been vested with by the Almighty Allah. It is an authority that makes it possible for the wali to exercise his power over everything that exists.

In the words of Ayatullah al-Khumayni, "It is a vicegerency pertaining to the whole of creation, by virtue of which all the atoms in the universe humble themselves before the holder of authority."This authority of the chosen servant of Allah is totally dependent on His discretion and power. It should not be seen in the horizontal form but in the vertical form vis-a-vis the power of Almighty Allah. As long as we maintain the vertical hierarchy of the power, we have safeguarded the tawhid (unity of oneness).

For example, all Muslims believe that it is Allah who gives life and death to the People. The Qur'an itself says, 

"Allah takes the souls at the time of their death." (39; 42) 

But at the same time, the Qur'an also attributes death to the angels by saying, 

"Say: It is the angel of death (who is given charge of you) who shall cause you to die." (32: 11) 

If you place the verses in the vertical form (with the power of the angels beneath and dependent upon the power of Allah), then you have safeguarded the tawhid. 

Similarly, if we place power and authority of the Prophets and the Imams in the vertical form (with the certain beleif that their power is beneath and dependent upon the power of Allah), then we have safeguarded the tawhid as well as the status of the chosen servants of Allah. 

The Qur'an gives various examples of the persons who had been given the authority on the universe.

1. Describing the powers that Allah, (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), had given to Prophet Isa bin Maryam (عليه السلام), the Qur'an quotes him as follows: 

" I make out of the clay the form of a bird, then I breathe into it and becomes a [real, living, flying] bird with Allah's permission; I heal the blind and the leprous; and I bring the dead back to life with Allah's permission; and I inform you what you are eating and what you store in your houses ..." (3:48) 

2. Describing the powers given to Prophet Sulayman, the Qur'an says: 

" Then We made the wind subservient to him; it blew by his command gently to wherever he desired. And (We also made subservient to him) the jinn: each (of them as) builder and diver, and others fettred in chains. This is Our gift, therefore give freely or withhold, without reckoning. Most surely he had a nearness to Us and an excellent resort." (38:36-40 also 21:81-82) 

3. Describing the power of Asif bin Barkhiya, the vizier of Prophet Sulayman, the Qur'an describes the scene of the moments before the Queen of Sheba and her entourage came to visit him : 

"He (Sulayman) said, O Chiefs which one of you can bring her to me (i.e Queen of Sheba's) throne before they come to me in submission.' 

One audacious among the jinn, I will bring it to you before you rise from your place : and most surely I am strong and trustworthy for it. (But) one who had the knowledge of some of the Book said, I will bring it to you in the twinkling of an eye. Then when he saw it (i. e. the throne) settled beside him, he said. This is the grace of my lord that He may try me whether I am grateful or ungrateful ..."' ( 27; 38-40) 

In these three example from the Qur'an, we see that Almighty Allah had blessed some of his chosen servants with the power to breathe life to a shape of an animal, to bring the dead back to life, to cure the blind and the leprous, to subjugate the jinn for their work, to bring an item from far away in the twinkling of an eye, etc. These examples are sufficient to how those such powers can be given and have been given by Allah to those whom He likes.

 Allah has given various ranks to the Prophets and messengers (2: 253; 17; 55), and all Muslims are unanimous in believing that the Prophet of Islam, Muhammad al-Mustafa, is higher in rank than all the Prophets and messengers. All Prophet and (As-Sadiq, I'tiqadat, p.92-93; in its English translation, the Shi'ite Creed, p.84-85; al-Majlisi, "Risala fi l-I'tiqadat," p.310 ) messengers had come to prepare their societies for the acceptance of the final and universal Messenger of God, Muhammad (s. w. a.). If prophets like Sulayman, Dawud, 'Isa, and Musa, and also Sulayman's vizier, Asif, were blessed with power over the nature, then it follows by necessity that Prophet Muhammad must have been blessed with greater power over the universe. Two examples have been cleanly mentioned in the Qur'an. The ability of the Prophet of Islam to travel into space and beyond with his human body (17; 1: 53: 5-18), and the parting of the moon by pointing towards it with his finger (54;1)1

During the early days in Mecca, when the idol worshippers were rejecting the claim of the Prophet, Allah revealed a verse to console him by saying : "And those who disbelieve say, You are not a messenger, Say, Allah is sufficient as a witness (between me and you) and the one who has knowledge of the Book."(13; 43) 

(1. On parting of the moon, see in Shi'a sources, at-Tabrasi, Majma'u l-Bayan, vol.5.p 186; at-Tabtaba'i, al-Mizan fi Tafsiri l-Qur'an, vol.19.p 60-72 who also refutes the objections raised by the materialist minded Muslims how like to interpret all such verses in metaphorical sense. In Sunni sources, see al-Fakhr ar-Razi, at -Tafsiru l-kabir, vol.15, p.26; as-Suyuti, ad-Durru l-Manthur, vol, 6.p.133; Mawdudi, Tafhim l-Qur'an, vol.5, p.230-231.

 2. As-Saduq I'tiqadat, p.92-93; in its English translation, The shi'ite Creed, p.84-85; al-Majlisi, "Risala fi I-Itiqadat" p.310)

Prophet Muhammad is being consoled that it doesn't matter if the idolaters do not believe in your claim; it is sufficient that Allah and the one who has knowledge of the Book are witnesses to the truth of you claim. Whom is Allah referring to as a witness to the truth of the Prophet's claim? Who is this person 'who has knowledge of the Book? According to Shi'i report, supported by Sunni sources, it refers to Ali bin Abi Talib. This was definitely no one among the companions of the Prophet who could claim that he had more knowledge about Islam than Ali bin Abi Talib. 

( Among Sunni references, see Ibn al-Maghazili ash-Shafi'i, Manaqib al-Imam Ali bin Abi Talib, p.313 (hadith # 358); as-Suyuti, ad-Duru l-Manthur, vol.4. (beirut: Dar al-Fikr, n.d.) p.669; al-Qanduzi, Yanabi'u l-Muwaddah (Beirut; 1390/1970) p.121. For further refrences, see ash-Shahid at-Tusari, Ihqaqu l-Haqq, vol.3, p.280, vol.14 p.362-365, vol.20, p.75-77. For a critical review of the counter reports cited by some Sunni scholars, see at-Tabataba'i, al-Mizan, vol.11. p.423-428).

If, Asif Barkhiya, Sulayman's vizier, had so much power over nature that he could bring the throne of the Queen of Sheba before the "twinkling of an eye". Asif has been described as someone who had knowledge of a portion of the Book," not "the knowledge of the entire Book."

In comparison to this, Imam Ali has been described by Allah as someone who had “knowledge of the Book", not just a portion of the Book. Therefore, it is not difficult to conclude that the power of Imam Ali over nature is many degrees greater than that of Asif Barkhiya who brought the throne from far away before the "twinkling of an eye". 

 Again, as an important reminder, that this belief is to be held in the vertical form vis-as-vis the power of Alimighty Allah, and only in that format can we preserve the concept of tawhid in which Allah is the Absolute power and source of the all power.

It is to remind us of the total dependency of the chosen ones upon Allah's will and power that He commands the Prophet to say, I do not control any benefit or harm for myself except as Allah pleases." (7: 188) This is not a denial of having power; it is affirmation of the belief that whatever power he has is according to the wish and pleasure of Almighty Allah.

 

 

Edited February 9 by Muslim2010

[Abu_Zahra]

4 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

 

Al-Saduq's boundaries of ghuluw are rejected by the majority of scholars, its better to use the contemporary mainstream view of the boundaries of ghuluw and tafweedh.

Brother if you open the link you will see that the words are not from Sheikh al Saduq, rather from the aimmah (عليه السلام).

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

16 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

 

Kindly refer to the following chapter of Al Itiqadaat concerning ghuluw and tafweedh

 

Kindly, define this complex and very convoluted term " Tafweedh" . In very simple terms that a layman would have no problem understanding it. 

[VoidVortex]

12 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

16 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

 

Brother if you open the link you will see that the words are not from Sheikh al Saduq, rather from the aimmah (عليه السلام).

Salam Brother, all scholars read the same ahadith yet derive different conclusions. To say its the ahadith of the aimmah would not be sufficient. There can be a lot of nuances in interpreting ahadith, and different understandings can arise. 

For example, Sayed Khomeini belives in wilayat takwiyniyyah to a great degree, but he asserts that he doesn't go against ahadiths against tafweedh or jabr. He also opposes the Philosophers when it comes to the attributes of God and his essence, yet the hadith on this topic would seem to clearly state the opposite, at least the english translation. The reason he was able to derive X or Y conclusion in this case was because he interpreted the grammar of the arabic of the hadith differently. Nuances are many in ahadith.

[Cool]

20 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

There is no clear basis for such a  belief in the Quran

There indeed are clear basis for wilayat e takwinniyah in Quran. The matter of jabr & tafweed has been described categorically by the Imams of Ahlul Bayt by saying "امر بين الامرين". So the matter of tafweed must been seen in light of the above. There are negative as well as positive aspects of tafweed. Those who straight forwardly reject the positive tafweed, are muqassir or even more, perhaps kafir.

Your saying is similar to the saying of Ahlul Sunnah who ask that there are no clear basis of Imamate in Quran. 

The clarity which they sought is like that:

"O believers! Ali (عليه السلام) is your wali and successor of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), it has been made obligatory on you to obey him after the Prophet"

Or 

"Whoever obeyed Ali (عليه السلام) has obeyed the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)"

Wassalam!!

 

[Abu_Zahra]

11 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

For example, Sayed Khomeini belives in wilayat takwiyniyyah to a great degree, but he asserts that he doesn't go against ahadiths against tafweedh or jabr.

Wa alaikum as salam brother

Where has he asserted this?

11 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

The reason he was able to derive X or Y conclusion in this case was because he interpreted the grammar of the arabic of the hadith differently.

Where has he said this? There doesn't seem to be any difficulty with the grammar of these narrations so I am surprised to hear this claim.

 

[VoidVortex]

 

1 hour ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Wa alaikum as salam brother

Where has he asserted this?

these two links point to two important parts of the chapter:

Thirty-First Hadith: The Indescribability of God, The Prophet, And The Imams | Forty Hadith, An Exposition, Second Revised Edition | Al-Islam.org

Thirty-First Hadith: The Indescribability of God, The Prophet, And The Imams | Forty Hadith, An Exposition, Second Revised Edition | Al-Islam.org

1 hour ago, Abu_Zahra said:

13 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

 

Where has he said this? There doesn't seem to be any difficulty with the grammar of these narrations so I am surprised to hear this claim.

sorry I meant his view on the attributes of God and his essence, this is where he puts forward his own view on the arabic grammar of the narration and also refutes the understanding of the Philosophers.

Thirty-Sixth Hadith: The Attributes Of God | Forty Hadith, An Exposition, Second Revised Edition | Al-Islam.org

[Abu_Zahra]

Thanks for your feedback brother.  In general I find your argument problematic.  Essentially you are saying that the Quran and hadith are not really valid proofs, we should simply refer to what the scholars say even if it contradicts our sources. 

I don't think I need to elaborate on the multiple flaws with this line of thinking. 

[layman]

Quran and authentic hadiths are valid proofs.  No real muslims will deny it. 

However, understanding of scholars on the proofs from Qur'an and authentic hadiths may defer.  Even Salman and Abu Zarr differed in their understanding of certain aspects of higher level knowledge of Islam.  

 

Wallahualam. 

[Muslim2010]

4 hours ago, layman said:

Quran and authentic hadiths are valid proofs.  No real muslims will deny it. 

However, understanding of scholars on the proofs from Qur'an and authentic hadiths may defer.  Even Salman and Abu Zarr differed in their understanding of certain aspects of higher level knowledge of Islam.  

Certainly for me the understanding of Ayat ullah Khumainy for the verses of Qur'an and authentic hadiths is like solid evidence for the interpretation of the text.

No person like me or any other member at SC has such level or understanding to claim for any different words.

wasalam

[VoidVortex]

I will say though that Imam Khomeini can be wrong about this, and his arguments can be responded too. He may be right or he may be wrong. It is however important to see that we have a portion of scholars that believe in wilayah takwiyyiniyah to this extent. Ayatollah Khomeini was heavyweight scholar, even in fiqh he was extremely strong, let alone his specialisation in other subjects. It makes his perspectives of the religion certainly worthy of consideration.

11 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Essentially you are saying that the Quran and hadith are not really valid proofs, we should simply refer to what the scholars say even if it contradicts our sources. 

certainly not. Those scholars are using Quran and Hadith to derive their conclusions in the first place. 

Let's take the rulings on music for example. It was essentially consensus that musical instruments were haram because the hadiths clearly stated it was haram. 

But, recently the rulings on this have changed. Sayed Sistani himself views it permissible as long as certain conditions are fulfilled. Did Sayed Sistani suddenly imagine Quran and hadith to not be strong proof. Certainly not. This is because hadith on this subject can be re-interpreted to be seen in the light of prohibiting it when it is suitable for entertainment or sinful gatherings. 

In a similar manner, Sayed Khomeini does not consider wilayah takwiyyiniyah the tafweedh prohibited in hadith, just like Shaykh as-Saduq and Shaykh al-Mufid differed on ghuluw. They didn't magically disregard sources, but their interpretation differed. 

[Abu_Zahra]

@VoidVortex what I understand from your reasoning is that if you see a conflict between the Qur'an/Hadith and the beliefs of a scholar, you will adhere to the beliefs of the scholar? 

8 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

Ayatollah Khomeini was heavyweight scholar, even in fiqh he was extremely strong

I wouldn't say he was known to be strong in the area of fiqh. He was known to be oriented more towards philosophy. His works on fiqh are somewhat limited and it appears that he mainly taught subjects other than fiqh in the limited time that he was teaching in Najaf.

 

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

3 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

I wouldn't say he was known to be strong in the area of fiqh. He was known to be oriented more towards philosophy. His works on fiqh are somewhat limited and it appears that he mainly taught subjects other than fiqh in the limited time that he was teaching in Najaf.

Salam this is a typical misconseption about Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) which some people think that he has not been strong in Fiqh or just has been an ordinary scholar scholar in fiqh which is a wrong conception which during staying in Qom before his forced exile to Najaf he has been strongest person in field of Fiqh which also he has been most favorit teacher of Fiqh in Hawza of Qom which he has written around 34 books about Fiqh which are still best  books of studying Fiqh for students of Hawza of Qom but on the other hand in opposition to traditionalist scholars he has not limited himself just in Fiqh which since young age he has been highly active in field of mysticism which in similar fashion he has been frontier of reviving studying & reviewing  philosophy in Hawaz of qom so then Najaf after his exile which after forced exile to Najaf he also has revieved studyung & reviewing Wialyat Faqih (WF) which directly relates to "Wilayat-at-Takwiniyah" (WT) because WF takes it's credibilty from inafallible Imams who have had WT which he has mostly  known for this short period of  teaching & reviving WF & WT in Hawza of Najaf while others have neglected his strength & heavy weight in Fiqh & philosophy & mysticism which someone likewise Professor Yahya Christian Bonaud (رضي الله عنه) has stated one of great reasons for his converting to Shia Islam has been  facing other face of Imam Khomeini(رضي الله عنه) as a great & unknown gnostic which when he read & translated Imam Khomeini's works likewise Sharḥ du'a saḥar (Arabic) [Commentary of Sahar supplication] which he has defended his phd in 1995 with title of «الهیات در آثار فلسفی و عرفانی امام خمینی» "Theology in philosophical & gonostic works of Imam Khomeini"

 

 

Quote

The total of Imam's existing works is 60 titles (in 100 volumes), and it is hoped that all of them will be published in the same and coordinated manner.
This article is responsible for introducing and describing jurisprudential works (20 titles), principles (9 titles) and rules of jurisprudence (4 titles), in addition to identifying them, the bibliography of their descriptions, summaries and translations is also mentioned.

http://ensani.ir/fa/article/54335/آثار-فقهی-و-اصولی-امام-خمینی

http://en.imam-khomeini.ir/en/key/Yahya-Buno

http://en.imam-khomeini.ir/en/n33286/Dr-Yahya-Bonaud-was-much-fascinated-by-Imam-Khomeini

Books in Demonstrative Jurisprudence

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• Kitāb al-tahāra [Book in Cleanness], Qom and Najaf, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, Two volumes published in 1957 in Qom, Two other volumes in 1969 in Najaf,
• Al-makāsib al-muḥarrama [Forbidden Earnings], Tehran, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 1994
• Kitāb al-bay' [Book of Selling], Tehran, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 2010
• Kitāb al-khilal [Book of Imperfection in prayer], Tehran, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 2003
• Risālat fī al-taqiyya [Treatise in Taqiyya (Precautionary Dissimulation)]
• Risālat fī qā'ida man malik [Treatise in the Rule of Possession]
• Risālat fī ta'īn al-fajr fī al-layālī al-muqmira [Treatise in distinguishing Fajr (dawn) in moonlight nights], Qom, 1989
• Risālat lā ḍarar [Treatise in La Darar], Qom, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 2007
• Risālat al-istiṣḥāb [Treatise in Istishab (presumption of continuity)], Tehran, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 2007
• Risālt fī al-ta'ādul wa al-tarājīḥ [Treatise in al-Ta'adul wa al-Tarajih (balance and preferences)],Tehran, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 2010
• Risālat al-ijtihād wa al-taqlīd [Treatise in al-Ijtihad wa al-Taqlid], Tehran, Uruj Publication, 2010
• Risālat fī al-talab wa al-irāda [Treatise in Want and Will], Tehran, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 2001
• Ta'līqāt alā Kifāyat al-uṣul [Gloss on Kifayat al-usul], Tehran, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 1994
• Risāla dar muḍū'-i ilm al-uṣul [A Short Treatise on the Theme of the Principles of Jurisprudence]

Risala Amaliya or Non-Demonstrative Jurisprudence

Quote

 

• Ta'līqāt alā al-urwat al-wuthqā (Arabic), [Gloss on al-Urwat al-Wuthqa], Tehran, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 2002
• Ta'līqāt alā wasīlat al-nājat (Arabic) [Gloss on the Mean of Salvation], Tehran, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 2002
• Ḥāshiya tawḍīḥ al-masā'il (Persian)
• Risāla Nijāt al-ibād (Persian), [Treatise on People's Salvation], Tehran, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 2006
• Ḥāshīya risāla irth (Persian), [Marginal Notes on Irth Treatise], Tehran, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 2007
• Manāsīk ya dastur-i ḥajj (Persian)
• Taḥrīr al-wasīla (Arabic), [The Manual of Fatwas], Tehran, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 2013
• Zubdat al-aḥkām (Arabic)
• Tawḍīḥ al-masā'il (Persian), [The Manual of Fatwas], Tehran, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 1999
• Mulḥaqāt tawḍīḥ al-masā'il (Persian),
• Istiftā'āt (Persian), [Religious Questions], Tehran, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 2014
• Ḥukūmat islāmi ya wilāyat faqīh (Persian)
• Kashf asrār (Persian)
• Risāla dar rijāl (Arabic)
• Diwān she'r (Persian), [Collection of Poems], Tehran, The Institute for Compilation and Publication of Imam Khomeini's Works, 2005
• Risāla-ie mushtamil bar fawā'idī dar ba'ḍī masā'il mushkila

https://en.wikishia.net/view/List_of_Works_by_Imam_Khomeini

[VoidVortex]

3 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

12 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

 

I wouldn't say he was known to be strong in the area of fiqh. He was known to be oriented more towards philosophy. His works on fiqh are somewhat limited and it appears that he mainly taught subjects other than fiqh in the limited time that he was teaching in Najaf.

I wrote something for this, but @Ashvazdangheanswered the question way better than I could. I will also add he was a revolutionary in fiqh too.

3 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

@VoidVortex what I understand from your reasoning is that if you see a conflict between the Qur'an/Hadith and the beliefs of a scholar, you will adhere to the beliefs of the scholar? 

let's take this question and answer by Sayed Sistani for example:

Quote

Question: What is the meaning of the statement from the hadith that “the first glance is [permissible] for you, but the second one will [be held] against you”? Is it permissible to prolong the first glance while looking at a woman on the basis, as claimed by some, that it is still “the first permissible glance”?

Answer: Apparently the meaning of the statement mentioned above is to differentiate between the two glances in the sense that the first was just an accidental and a passing one, and so it is considered guiltless since no lustful desires were involved in it, as opposed to the second glance which was naturally intentional and accompanied with an element of desire, and therefore is detrimental. It is because of this that a statement has been quoted by Imam as-Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) in which he says, “The glance after the [first] one creates in the heart the desire and that is sufficient as a temptation for the person.”

Sayed Sistani explains the hadith in a different way than what the hadith appears to be saying. He's not rejecting the hadith but adding nuance to it. 

This view is a recent view, and jurisprudents of the past actually only allowed seeing a woman once, with or without lust. Jurisprudents today have started issuing views different to the jurisprudents of the past. This is because hadiths have nuances, and they cannot just be read and applied. They have to be analysed very deeply and understood in the correct context, otherwise are our jurisprudents today sinning by ruling music to be lawful in certain circumstances despite some pretty explicit texts banning even certain instruments? 

Anyways, its not a matter that if I see an apparent conflict between Quran and hadith and the beliefs of a scholar I will adhere to the beliefs of a scholar, although we actually do this in taqlid, but its the case that I will consider a scholar's view as long as they provide evidences for it, and highlight why X hadith can be interpreted in Y way. For Sayed Khomeini's view on wilayat takwinniyah, whilst I acknowledge his view, I actually don't accept or reject his view. I do say however that his view could be argued for and against, but for now I don't reject it nor do I accept. As I increase in knowledge maybe my view will change, or it won't. If a scholar intends to argue for something, they need to bring evidences for it. Imam Khomeini actually brought hadiths from al-kafi to justify his view in those chapters I posted, hadiths I didn't know existed and not what I expected to be in al-kafi. Of course he can't argue for his view on this fully in that book, because it wasn't suitable to explain fully why he believed in his version of wilayat takwiyniyyah, he might have had to write an entire book for that or more(which might exist I'm not sure), certainly something which can't fit into a chapter.

 

[Abu_Zahra]

5 minutes ago, VoidVortex said:

For Sayed Khomeini's view on wilayat takwinniyah, whilst I acknowledge his view, I actually don't accept or reject his view. I do say however that his view could be argued for and against, but for now I don't reject it nor do I accept. As I increase in knowledge maybe my view will change, or it won't.

This is already a more reasonable position, than to simply say 'if Khomeini believed it then it can't be wrong.'

[VoidVortex]

Just now, Abu_Zahra said:

This is already a more reasonable position, than to simply say 'if Khomeini believed it then it can't be wrong.'

I never advocated for that though or hinted at it. If a scholar says something they can be wrong, no  matter how great they are. I just wanted to show that this take of wilayah takwinniyah does exist amongst some scholars of which Sayed Khomeini is included. 

[Abu_Zahra]

9 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

I just wanted to show that this take of wilayah takwinniyah does exist amongst some scholars of which Sayed Khomeini is included. 

I am aware that he believes in it, but I have yet to see his response to the narrations addressing tafweedh.

Interestingly if we combine the belief of wilayatul faqih al mutlaqa and al wilayah al takweeniyah then the conclusion would be the Khomeini (and now Khamenei) control every atom in the universe.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protect us from such beliefs. 

[VoidVortex]

1 hour ago, Abu_Zahra said:

 

Interestingly if we combine the belief of wilayatul faqih al mutlaqa and al wilayah al takweeniyah then the conclusion would be the Khomeini (and now Khamenei) control every atom in the universe.

wilayat al faqih and wilayat takwiniyyah are not really related. Being wali al faqih doesn't give you the esoteric wilayah of the Imam. Imam Khomeini and Khamenei do not have such a power. Its far fetched for a lot of people to even claim Imam Zaman has such a power, let alone fallibles. As for Imam Zaman, he may have such a power, he may not, I don't know. 

[Abu_Zahra]

3 minutes ago, VoidVortex said:

Being wali al faqih doesn't give you the esoteric wilayah of the Imam. 

I agree with you but as per the theory of wilayatul faqih al mutlaqa the wilayah of the faqih is equal to the wilayah of the prophets and aimmah (عليه السلام)

https://www.al-islam.org/cursory-glance-theory-wilayat-al-faqih-muhammad-taqi-misbah-yazdi/chapter-5-concept-absolute

[Ashvazdanghe]

11 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

I am aware that he believes in it, but I have yet to see his response to the narrations addressing tafweedh.

Interestingly if we combine the belief of wilayatul faqih al mutlaqa and al wilayah al takweeniyah then the conclusion would be the Khomeini (and now Khamenei) control every atom in the universe.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) protect us from such beliefs. 

Salam nobody has such belief about them which are comparing apples with oranges which current wilayatul faqih al mutlaqa is about having permision from infallible Imam specially Imam Mahdi (aj) for controlling & modifying of social & economical & political & religious affairs of people by permission of infallible Imam of time which has no relation to controlling univers or every atom in universe which only Imam Mahdi (aj) can has this authority by permission of Allah which it somehow relates to concept of quantom physics which some gropus likewise cabalists have tried to blend Cbala with quantom physics in order to become new gods who are independent from real creator god as Allah which also it has been mentioned about conpiracy theories about Nazi scientists likewise case of de glocke .

9 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

I agree with you but as per the theory of wilayatul faqih al mutlaqa the wilayah of the faqih is equal to the wilayah of the prophets and aimmah (عليه السلام)

https://www.al-islam.org/cursory-glance-theory-wilayat-al-faqih-muhammad-taqi-misbah-yazdi/chapter-5-concept-absolute

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

Addendum

 

[Cool]

As I have mentioned on another threads, we do have brothers & scholars who cannot grasp the "isharaat" present within the verses of Quran. 

They deserve sympathy. As for their stance on tafweed, they themselves accept the tafweed in religious affairs but their inability to grasp the "positive tafweed" in the takwini affairs forces them to reject this very clear concept. So the "shaqq al qamar" was a famous event mentioned in Quran, had the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) never raised his finger or intended/commanded the moon to split (by the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)), what would cause the moon to split? This is one example of the very concept of positive tafweed. 

Had the jesus a s never intended to make the dead alive or cure the blind, who would have done all that? 

Apart from that, who are the just/medium nation or "ummatan wasata"? 

وَكَذَلِكَ جَعَلْنَاكُمْ أُمَّةً وَسَطًا لِّتَكُونُواْ شُهَدَاء عَلَى النَّاسِ وَيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ عَلَيْكُمْ شَهِيدًا

2:143)

Do they deny the fact that Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is a witness even now? Do they deny the fact that Imams are witness over people? 

Who are the best of ummah in the following verse:

كُنتُمْ خَيْرَ أُمَّةٍ أُخْرِجَتْ لِلنَّاسِ تَأْمُرُونَ بِالْمَعْرُوفِ وَتَنْهَوْنَ عَنِ الْمُنكَرِ 

3:110)

So for them there are no insaan e kamil, do they think that the best of ummah mentioned in above verse, commands the ma'roof to others and stops other from munkar but forget themselves? The best ummah should be the one who themselves do the ma'roof & avoid the munkar at the first place, and that is what made them the insaan e kamil.

وَمِمَّنْ خَلَقْنَا أُمَّةٌ يَهْدُونَ بِالْحَقِّ وَبِهِ يَعْدِلُونَ

7:181)

Who are the ones who "guides with truth" and with it they do justice? Yet they reject the concept of insaan e kamil.

وَجَاهِدُوا فِي اللَّهِ حَقَّ جِهَادِهِ ۚ هُوَ اجْتَبَاكُمْ وَمَا جَعَلَ عَلَيْكُمْ فِي الدِّينِ مِنْ حَرَجٍ ۚ مِلَّةَ أَبِيكُمْ إِبْرَاهِيمَ ۚ هُوَ سَمَّاكُمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ مِنْ قَبْلُ وَفِي هَٰذَا لِيَكُونَ الرَّسُولُ شَهِيدًا عَلَيْكُمْ وَتَكُونُوا شُهَدَاءَ عَلَى النَّاسِ ۚ فَأَقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَآتُوا الزَّكَاةَ وَاعْتَصِمُوا بِاللَّهِ هُوَ مَوْلَاكُمْ ۖ فَنِعْمَ الْمَوْلَىٰ وَنِعْمَ النَّصِيرُ

22:78)

Yet another verse, this verse alone is suffice. It deserve to be presented as an evidence for all those who deny the wilayat al-takwiniyyah. 

[VoidVortex]

On 2/12/2023 at 8:53 PM, Abu_Zahra said:

On 2/12/2023 at 8:48 PM, VoidVortex said:

 

I agree with you but as per the theory of wilayatul faqih al mutlaqa the wilayah of the faqih is equal to the wilayah of the prophets and aimmah (عليه السلام)

 in the sense that obeying him is like obeying the Prophet etc. 

For example it is narrated that our deeds are witnessed by the 12th Imam every monday and thursday. Does it mean that wali al faqih has this ability. Nothing suggests that, and if someone wishes to prove this they can bring their proof.

[VoidVortex]

By the way, I watched a video today and this is the moderate position.
The Imams and Prophet are in unity with all realms except essence of Allah. Although they are in unity with all realms, they are not aware of all things that happen. If Allah wishes he diverts their attention to the Barzakhi realm or the immaterial realm and they gain knowledge from that. 

For example if the Prophet lost his camel, its not that he made taqqiyah and actually knew where it was. "Ana Bashurun mithlokum"! However, if he was made fun of, then as the religion is under attack, Allah makes the Prophet aware where the camel is. 

This theory solves Sayed Fadlullah's contention and also solves some questions about the esoteric nature of the Imams. The Imams are in unity with all these realms, but do not have absolute knowledge. Its like if you are working very intensely and you are hungry, but because of your focus on your work, you don't feel that hunger. You still are hungry but your attention is diverted. Hence it is said that if the Imams were given access to some high realms(which they are already in unity with), they wouldn't feel the stab of a knife.

I can't do justice to this so this is the video

 

[VoidVortex]

As for the proof of the existence of these realms, to my knowledge I certainly know until the immaterial realm, things have been proven and its mentioned in another video that Ayatollah Hasanzadeh Amoli provided 20 proofs for the immateriality of the soul, although some theologians even still living today reject this, as did Shaykh Mufid.

[PureExistence1]

1 hour ago, VoidVortex said:

 its mentioned in another video that Ayatollah Hasanzadeh Amoli provided 20 proofs for the immateriality of the soul,

Salaam,would you by chance be able to link to the video youre referring to or provide the name, if you know it, so i can try and find it myself? The subject matter is fascinating, especially when the info is coming from Ayatollah Hassanzadeh Amoli.

JazakAlahkheyr

[VoidVortex]

yes its this 3 part series on the theory of Ulama Abrar. Part 2 is on the same channel and part 3 is linked above.