The attributes of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى)

[Simple thinking]

 As-salamu alaykum

"Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Hayy, and we are also Hayy."  (living) Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), has mercy we also have mercy.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can see and hear, and we can see and hear as well, why can't Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have other attributes, such as a hand and so on? We share these type of attributes with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), but the way Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has these attributes differs from ours."

———-
 

This is a common argument used by atharis. 

I was thinking about it, but my answer is probably not as good as the brothers here, so I was wondering  if anyone would like to offer their views on this topic.

 

             
As always Jazak Allah Khair in advance.

[Muslim2010]

On 2/5/2023 at 10:31 AM, Simple thinking said:

 As-salamu alaykum

"Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Hayy, and we are also Hayy."  (living) Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), has mercy we also have mercy.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can see and hear, and we can see and hear as well, why can't Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have other attributes, such as a hand and so on? We share these type of attributes with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), but the way Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has these attributes differs from ours."

———-
 

This is a common argument used by atharis. 

I was thinking about it, but my answer is probably not as good as the brothers here, so I was wondering  if anyone would like to offer their views on this topic.

 

The Shi’a firmly believe that Allah has NOT got a body, nor face, nor hands, nor fingers, nor legs. Shaykh Saduq, one of the most distinguished of Shi’a scholars says:

"Verily, Allah is One, Unique, nothing is like Him, He is Eternal; Hearing, Seeing, Omniscient, Living, Omnipotent, above every need. He cannot be described in terms of substance, nor body, nor form, nor accident, nor line, nor surface, nor heaviness, nor lightness, nor color, nor movement, nor rest, nor time, nor space. He is above all the descriptions which can be applied to His creatures. He is away from both extremes: Neither He is just a non-entity (as atheists and in a lesser degree Mutazilites implied), nor He is just like other things. He is Existent, not like other existing things."

Shi’i reference: Shi’ite Creed (al-Itqadat al-Imamiyyah), by Shaykh Saduq

Of course, there are some verses in Qur’an which ascribe the words used for limbs to the person of God. But according to the interpretation of Shi’ite Imams, they are used in metaphorical and symbolic sense, not literal sense.
for example, the verse (28:88) of Qur’an which says: "Every thing is mortal except His face”means ‘except His person’. Surely, even Sunni scholars can not say that only the face of God will remain, while His other so-called limbs (either physical or not) will die! Similarly, Allah has used
the word ‘Hand’ (Yad) in several places in the Qur’an. But it means His power and His Mercy, as in the verse (5:64): "But His hands are outspread".

In fact in the Qur’an and the Prophetic such mytaphorical meanings were greatly used. For example, Allah describes his Prophets as:

"Men of Hands and vision.”(Qur’an 38:45)

Even all Sunni scholars agreed that here ‘hands’ means power and strength. 

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/outline-differences-between-shiite-and-sunni-schools-thought#person-god

Edited February 6 by Muslim2010

[Simple thinking]

6 hours ago, Muslim2010 said:

The Shi’a firmly believe that Allah has NOT got a body, nor face, nor hands, nor fingers, nor legs. Shaykh Saduq, one of the most distinguished of Shi’a scholars says:

"Verily, Allah is One, Unique, nothing is like Him, He is Eternal; Hearing, Seeing, Omniscient, Living, Omnipotent, above every need. He cannot be described in terms of substance, nor body, nor form, nor accident, nor line, nor surface, nor heaviness, nor lightness, nor color, nor movement, nor rest, nor time, nor space. He is above all the descriptions which can be applied to His creatures. He is away from both extremes: Neither He is just a non-entity (as atheists and in a lesser degree Mutazilites implied), nor He is just like other things. He is Existent, not like other existing things."

Shi’i reference: Shi’ite Creed (al-Itqadat al-Imamiyyah), by Shaykh Saduq

Of course, there are some verses in Qur’an which ascribe the words used for limbs to the person of God. But according to the interpretation of Shi’ite Imams, they are used in metaphorical and symbolic sense, not literal sense.
for example, the verse (28:88) of Qur’an which says: "Every thing is mortal except His face”means ‘except His person’. Surely, even Sunni scholars can not say that only the face of God will remain, while His other so-called limbs (either physical or not) will die! Similarly, Allah has used
the word ‘Hand’ (Yad) in several places in the Qur’an. But it means His power and His Mercy, as in the verse (5:64): "But His hands are outspread".

In fact in the Qur’an and the Prophetic such mytaphorical meanings were greatly used. For example, Allah describes his Prophets as:

"Men of Hands and vision.”(Qur’an 38:45)

Even all Sunni scholars agreed that here ‘hands’ means power and strength. 

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/outline-differences-between-shiite-and-sunni-schools-thought#person-god

The interpretation of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) having "mercy" and being "living" is understood, by Shia ithna asharis as SIFAATE ZAID? As in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) already possessed these attributes and is merciful, etc., he did not acquire them.  
correct me if I’m wrong. 

[Cool]

11 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

as SIFAATE ZAID? 

صفات ذات infact. Means God's very essence. 

You should be careful when contemplating on the Truth Almighty. Know that like Him there is nothing, He is the One & Only. 

Other than Him, every thing resides within the boundaries of "imkaan" (امكان) or possibilities while He is wajib al wajood or necessary existence. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

12 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

The interpretation of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) having "mercy" and being "living" is understood, by Shia ithna asharis as SIFAATE ZAID? As in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) already possessed these attributes and is merciful, etc., he did not acquire them.  
correct me if I’m wrong. 

Salam according to Shia ithna asharis Allah has neither  created nor acquired his attributes which Shia scholars have considered two type of attributes for Allah as Sifat Saboti صفات ثبوتی & Sifat Salbi صفات سلبی which Sifat Saboti صفات ثبوتی (attributes of perfection)  are likewise being creator & mercy & justice  & Knowledge, power, unity, life, will, perception, listening and seeing ... but on the other hand Sifat Salbi صفات سلبی (Jalaliجلالی , Tanzihi تنزیهی) (negative attributs & defection ) which certainly are not his atributes likewise Not compounding, not having a body, not dissolving, not being perceptible and not cruel .....

Meaning of Sifat Saboti صفات ثبوتی (کمال) Kamal perfection  ,  جمالی (Jamali )  &  Sifat Salbi  (Jalaliجلالی , Tanzihi jkcdid) (negative attributs & defection )صفات سلبی

https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/fa37785

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

 

[313_Waiter]

On 2/5/2023 at 4:31 PM, Simple thinking said:

 

"Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Hayy, and we are also Hayy."  (living) Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), has mercy we also have mercy.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can see and hear, and we can see and hear as well, why can't Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have other attributes, such as a hand and so on? We share these type of attributes with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), but the way Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has these attributes differs from ours."

———-

Allah is The Living 

Allah is The Merciful

Allah is The Seeing…

 

[313_Waiter]

http://www.duas.org/munajat-imamali-desktop.htm

[Muslim2010]

21 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

The interpretation of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) having "mercy" and being "living" is understood, by Shia ithna asharis as SIFAATE ZAID? As in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) already possessed these attributes and is merciful, etc., he did not acquire them.  

You may like to see the 99 attributes of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).  The details of few attributes have been mentioned below:

In the Holy Qur’an, we read the following verses:

Allah: There is no god but He; His are the Greatest Names. (20:8)

Say: Call upon Allah or call upon the Beneficent God (al-Rahman); whichever you call upon, He has the Greatest Names." (Qur’an, 17:110)

To Allah belong the Greatest Names; therefore, call on Him thereby, and leave alone those who violate the sanctity of His Names..." (Qur’an, 7:180)

Al-Rahman"

Allah has said, "All those in the heavens and the earth will come to the Beneficent God obediently" (Qur’an, 19:93).

"Al-Rahman al-Rahim" are two of the Attributes of Allah which remind people of His mercy, of the fact that His act of affecting goodness and rewards reach whomsoever He pleases, thus warding off evil from them. "Al-Rahman" and "al-Rahim" are two concurrent Attributes of His each conveying more meanings of mercy than the other.

"Al-Rahman" is an Attribute specifically relevant to Allah; none besides Him can be called or referred to as such, whereas "al-rahim" can be applied to people: One may be described as "rahim," merciful or kind, but a human cannot be "rahman".

In the Holy Qur’an, we read:

"In the Name of Allah, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful" (Qur’an, 1:1); "The beneficent God is firm in power" (Qur’an, 20:5).

It is an Attribute demonstrating that mercy can be possible only through Him. It means "the One Who grants mercy beyond which there is no other mercy at all and the like of which does not at all exist."
Though derived from mercy, "al-Rahman" is both a noun and an adjective. Neither contradicts the other.
It is commonly known that mercy means: one's desire or power of will to bring goodness to one who is much less than him in status.

"Al-Rahim"

Allah, Praise and Glory to Him, has said,

"Inform My servants that I am the Forgiving, the Merciful" (Qur’an, 15:49).

"Al-Rahim" is derived from "rahmah," mercy or compassion. "Rahmah" implies the salvation of those who receive it from harm and loss, and their being blessed with guidance, forgiveness and sound conviction. Al-Rahim, i.e. the One Who grants rahmah, is a superlative. It is the highest derivative form of rahmah. Allah has said,

"He it is Who sends His blessings on you, and (so do) His angels, so that He may bring you out of utter darkness into the light, and He is Merciful to the believers" (Qur’an, 33:43).

Al-Rahim is the One Who bestows countless blessings. Some say that this word is derived from "Rahim," and we have already come to know that the root word for it is "rahmah," that is, favours from Allah and blessings; surely His blessings cannot be counted, nor can they ever be exhausted.

The Messenger of Allah has said, "One who has no compassion towards people is deprived from Allah's Compassion." He has also said, "One who does not respect the seniors among us, nor shows compassion towards our young, nor safeguards the rights of the scholars among us, is surely none of us." Compassion among the servants of Allah is a sure path to achieving the mercy of Allah. The Messenger of Allah has said, "Be merciful unto those on earth so that those in the heavens may be merciful unto you."

https://www.shiavault.com/books/allah/chapters/3-the-ninety-nine-attributes-of-allah/

https://www.erfan.ir/english/12449.html

Edited February 7 by Muslim2010

[Simple thinking]

On 2/7/2023 at 3:21 AM, 313_Waiter said:

Allah is The Living 

Allah is The Merciful

Allah is The Seeing…

 

salam alaikum
 

Do you have the time to elaborate on what you mean specifically? 

Allah is The Living 

Allah is The Merciful

Allah is The Seeing

 

Do you think Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sees and is merciful in a similar way that we are, but on a different level of course? (I’m to further comprehend this subject)

 

[Simple thinking]

On 2/6/2023 at 1:04 PM, Muslim2010 said:

The Shi’a firmly believe that Allah has NOT got a body, nor face, nor hands, nor fingers, nor legs. Shaykh Saduq, one of the most distinguished of Shi’a scholars says:

"Verily, Allah is One, Unique, nothing is like Him, He is Eternal; Hearing, Seeing, Omniscient, Living, Omnipotent, above every need. He cannot be described in terms of substance, nor body, nor form, nor accident, nor line, nor surface, nor heaviness, nor lightness, nor color, nor movement, nor rest, nor time, nor space. He is above all the descriptions which can be applied to His creatures. He is away from both extremes: Neither He is just a non-entity (as atheists and in a lesser degree Mutazilites implied), nor He is just like other things. He is Existent, not like other existing things."

Shi’i reference: Shi’ite Creed (al-Itqadat al-Imamiyyah), by Shaykh Saduq

Of course, there are some verses in Qur’an which ascribe the words used for limbs to the person of God. But according to the interpretation of Shi’ite Imams, they are used in metaphorical and symbolic sense, not literal sense.
for example, the verse (28:88) of Qur’an which says: "Every thing is mortal except His face”means ‘except His person’. Surely, even Sunni scholars can not say that only the face of God will remain, while His other so-called limbs (either physical or not) will die! Similarly, Allah has used
the word ‘Hand’ (Yad) in several places in the Qur’an. But it means His power and His Mercy, as in the verse (5:64): "But His hands are outspread".

In fact in the Qur’an and the Prophetic such mytaphorical meanings were greatly used. For example, Allah describes his Prophets as:

"Men of Hands and vision.”(Qur’an 38:45)

Even all Sunni scholars agreed that here ‘hands’ means power and strength. 

https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclopedia/outline-differences-between-shiite-and-sunni-schools-thought#person-god

If not Divine simplicity, then what exactly do atharis believe and why is it incorrect or problematic?

 

There are many things we can't explain with logic, such as how we will never have to poop in Jannah, or even many other things in the Quran, so why try to understand Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) with logic?

 

Also last thing I want to mention regarding this thread is that I have seen this argument against divine simplicity

 

 

"If u believe in Divine Simplicity, u follow into Nestorianism, meaning that everything that happened was perfect and could not have happened any other way, in other words implying that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only had one perfect choice to make and he did not have free will." And the reason this is completely illogical is because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says the 

 

Quran says "And If He had willed, He would have made you of two nations,"  

 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would not have said that he would have done something that was less then perfect.”

[313_Waiter]

22 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

salam alaikum
 

Do you have the time to elaborate on what you mean specifically? 

Allah is The Living 

Allah is The Merciful

Allah is The Seeing

 

Do you think Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sees and is merciful in a similar way that we are, but on a different level of course? (I’m to further comprehend this subject)

Salam basically I believe that we don’t exist based on Imam Khomeini and Sufi understanding of Tawheed please watch these videos by Sheikh. Farrokh to learn more:

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL148VdlBWve86n2aDCXh5yVye7G4MCGJV

I understand why this could be controversial though…

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 2/22/2023 at 12:51 PM, Simple thinking said:

Do you think Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) sees and is merciful in a similar way that we are, but on a different level of course? (I’m to further comprehend this subject)

Salam certainly Allah has not a physical body to see liewise of us from a physical eye which also he doesn't need any physical fature for seeing & etc  which we are merciful by obeying & praying him but on the other hand he dosen't obey & pray toward us .

15 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

There are many things we can't explain with logic, such as how we will never have to poop in Jannah, or even many other things in the Quran, so why try to understand Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) with logic?

Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) has responded about it to most knowledgeable chritian of his time which people of Paradise /Jannah will sweat instead of pooping in similar fashion which a baby do excretion in state of being fetus by sweating inside womb of mother which you ;ack of knowledge is because you have neglected all teachings of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) so then you have relied on teachings of fallible ignorant people .

15 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

meaning that everything that happened was perfect and could not have happened any other way

everything can happen perfetly in multiple way  which Allah can do anything in multiple ways which all of ways will be perfect.

15 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

Quran says "And If He had willed, He would have made you of two nations,"  

 

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) would not have said that he would have done something that was less then perfect.”

Allah has made us different nations & races in order to that we recognize his power & knowlwdge which he made every nation & race in perfect way although of all differences which due that nobody or race or nation has superiority to others except in level of piety .

[Ashvazdanghe]

15 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

Quran says "And If He had willed, He would have made you of two nations,"

probably you mistaken one with two because your statement is in opposition with verse of holy Quran.

and had Allah wished He would have made you one community, but [His purposes required] that He should test you in respect to what He has given you. So take the lead in all good works.

Quote

We have sent down to you the Book with the truth, confirming what was before it of the Book and as a guardian over it. So judge between them by what Allah has sent down, and do not follow their desires against the truth that has come to you. For each [community] among you We had appointed a code [of law] and a path, and had Allah wished He would have made you one community, but [His purposes required] that He should test you in respect to what He has given you. So take the lead in all good works. To Allah shall be the return of you all, whereat He will inform you concerning that about which you used to differ. (48)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/5:48

https://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=5&verse=48

 

[Muslim2010]

22 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

If not Divine simplicity, then what exactly do atharis believe and why is it incorrect or problematic?

There are many things we can't explain with logic, such as how we will never have to poop in Jannah, or even many other things in the Quran, so why try to understand Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) with logic?

Divine simplicity is the default Shi’a position. It’s called صفاته عين ذاته or that God’s attributes are identical to his essence. This is the teaching of the Imams (عليه السلام) and is supported by the Qur’an and hadith. This is the only logical position to hold. The only other position is that God is a composite of essence and attributes, which the Sunnis believe, and this limits God and makes him contingent and an aggregate and thus negates his modal necessity. The Shias, all of them, agree on God being a simple unity devoid of any parts or ontological distinction.

Place Of Reason In Religion

This is one of the most important distinction between the Sunnis on one side, and Shi’ites on another. The Shiats say that irrespective of religious commandments, there is real merit or demerit in different courses of actions, and it is because a certain thing is good that God orders it, and because the other is bad that He forbids it. Sunni scholars deny this conception. They say that nothing is good or evil in itself. Only what God has commanded us is goodand what He has forbidden us is evil. If something is forbidden by God it is bad; then if God cancels the first order, and allows it, it will become good, after being bad.

In other words, the Shiats say that God has forbidden us to tell lie because it is bad; the Sunnis say that lie has become bad because God has forbidden it. Shiats recognize the relation of cause and effect. Sunni sholars deny it. They say that there is no cause except Allah. And it is just a habit of Allah that whenever, for example, we drink water He quenches our thirst.

Based upon the above difference of attitude about the position of reason in religion are the following differences: Shiats say that God never acts without purpose or aimlessly. All His actions are based on wisdom and intelligent purpose (e.g., Because it is not commendable, rationally, to act without purpose). The Sunni scholars on the other hand, because of their denouncement of rational merit or demerit, say that it is quite possible for God to act aimlessly.

It follows that, according to the Shiats, God does nothing which has inherent demerit in it. The Sunnis deny it. Shiats say that all actions of Allah are intended for the benefit of His creatures. Because He Himself has no need; and if His actions become devoid of benefits for His creation also, they will become aimless, which is rationally not commendable. The Sunnis deny it, because of their stand about rational merit or demerit.

[Simple thinking]

On 2/23/2023 at 12:38 PM, Muslim2010 said:

Divine simplicity is the default Shi’a position. It’s called صفاته عين ذاته or that God’s attributes are identical to his essence. This is the teaching of the Imams (عليه السلام) and is supported by the Qur’an and hadith. This is the only logical position to hold. The only other position is that God is a composite of essence and attributes, which the Sunnis believe, and this limits God and makes him contingent and an aggregate and thus negates his modal necessity. The Shias, all of them, agree on God being a simple unity devoid of any parts or ontological distinction.

Place Of Reason In Religion

This is one of the most important distinction between the Sunnis on one side, and Shi’ites on another. The Shiats say that irrespective of religious commandments, there is real merit or demerit in different courses of actions, and it is because a certain thing is good that God orders it, and because the other is bad that He forbids it. Sunni scholars deny this conception. They say that nothing is good or evil in itself. Only what God has commanded us is goodand what He has forbidden us is evil. If something is forbidden by God it is bad; then if God cancels the first order, and allows it, it will become good, after being bad.

In other words, the Shiats say that God has forbidden us to tell lie because it is bad; the Sunnis say that lie has become bad because God has forbidden it. Shiats recognize the relation of cause and effect. Sunni sholars deny it. They say that there is no cause except Allah. And it is just a habit of Allah that whenever, for example, we drink water He quenches our thirst.

Based upon the above difference of attitude about the position of reason in religion are the following differences: Shiats say that God never acts without purpose or aimlessly. All His actions are based on wisdom and intelligent purpose (e.g., Because it is not commendable, rationally, to act without purpose). The Sunni scholars on the other hand, because of their denouncement of rational merit or demerit, say that it is quite possible for God to act aimlessly.

It follows that, according to the Shiats, God does nothing which has inherent demerit in it. The Sunnis deny it. Shiats say that all actions of Allah are intended for the benefit of His creatures. Because He Himself has no need; and if His actions become devoid of benefits for His creation also, they will become aimless, which is rationally not commendable. The Sunnis deny it, because of their stand about rational merit or demerit.

Quran 7:143

When Moses came at the appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he asked, “My Lord! Reveal Yourself to me so I may see You.” Allah answered, “You cannot see Me! But look at the mountain. If it remains firm in its place, only then will you see Me.” When his Lord appeared to the mountain, He levelled it to dust and Moses collapsed unconscious. When he recovered, he cried, “Glory be to You! I turn to You in repentance and I am the first of the believers.”

 

Did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) reveal himself to the mountain?

How did the mountain turn into dust? 

[azizaliallah]

On 2/4/2023 at 10:31 PM, Simple thinking said:

 As-salamu alaykum

"Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is Hayy, and we are also Hayy."  (living) Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), has mercy we also have mercy.  Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) can see and hear, and we can see and hear as well, why can't Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) have other attributes, such as a hand and so on? We share these type of attributes with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), but the way Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has these attributes differs from ours."

———-
 

 All the attributes of God, you see in us are from God to God they will return.

Meaning they are borrowed,  rented, leased. They are  Not intrinsically ours. They originate from Allah. 

 

[Simple thinking]

On 2/23/2023 at 12:38 PM, Muslim2010 said:

Place Of Reason In Religion

This is one of the most important distinction between the Sunnis on one side, and Shi’ites on another. The Shiats say that irrespective of religious commandments, there is real merit or demerit in different courses of actions, and it is because a certain thing is good that God orders it, and because the other is bad that He forbids it. Sunni scholars deny this conception. They say that nothing is good or evil in itself. Only what God has commanded us is goodand what He has forbidden us is evil. If something is forbidden by God it is bad; then if God cancels the first order, and allows it, it will become good, after being bad.

In other words, the Shiats say that God has forbidden us to tell lie because it is bad; the Sunnis say that lie has become bad because God has forbidden it. Shiats recognize the relation of cause and effect. Sunni sholars deny it. They say that there is no cause except Allah. And it is just a habit of Allah that whenever, for example, we drink water He quenches our thirst.

Based upon the above difference of attitude about the position of reason in religion are the following differences: Shiats say that God never acts without purpose or aimlessly. All His actions are based on wisdom and intelligent purpose (e.g., Because it is not commendable, rationally, to act without purpose). The Sunni scholars on the other hand, because of their denouncement of rational merit or demerit, say that it is quite possible for God to act aimlessly.

It follows that, according to the Shiats, God does nothing which has inherent demerit in it. The Sunnis deny it. Shiats say that all actions of Allah are intended for the benefit of His creatures. Because He Himself has no need; and if His actions become devoid of benefits for His creation also, they will become aimless, which is rationally not commendable. The Sunnis deny it, because of their stand about rational merit or demerit.

Can we explain how Musa AS divided the sea or how Jesus AS raised the dead to life? 

Can these things be rationally or logically explained?

Do the laws of logic also hold true in Jannah?

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 2/25/2023 at 3:13 AM, Simple thinking said:

Did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) reveal himself to the mountain?

How did the mountain turn into dust? 

Salam there is 3 possibility  which third is more possible that has been  revealed  not himself which

1. It is said in a narration that a small part of the divine light that could pass through the hole of a needle shone on the mountain, the earth was beaten and the mountain was crushed.[3]

2. In many interpretations, Allah's manifestation on the mountain means revealing His greatness and holding His authority and authority on the mountain.[4]

3. In some interpretations, the manifestation of Allah means the manifestation of a ray of one of Allah's creations on the mountain: "What appears from all the verses is that Allah made a ray of one of His creations appear on the mountain (and revealed The creation of his works means the revelation of himself), was this creation one of the great signs of Allah that remained unknown to us? Or an example of the great force of the atom, or the mysterious and shocking waves, or a great and terrible lightning that struck the mountain, and a dazzling lightning, a loud and terrible sound, and a great power arose from it, so that the mountain was completely destroyed. fell apart".

Quote

It is as if Allah wanted to show two things to Moses (عليه السلام) and the Children of Israel by doing this:
First of all, they are not able to observe a small phenomenon of the great phenomena of the world of creation, yet how do they demand to observe the Lord and the Creator.

Another thing is that just as this great sign of Allah, although it was nothing more than a creature, it itself could not be seen, but its effects, that is, a huge earthquake, and its terrible voice could be heard, but its essence, that is, those mysterious waves or a great force, could not be seen with the eyes or It was understandable with other senses, yet could anyone doubt the existence of such a sign and say that because I do not see him and only see his works, I cannot believe in it? Where we make such a judgment about a creature, how can we say about the great Allah, because he is not visible, we do not believe in him, even though his works are everywhere".[8]

Some others believe that: apparently, the intention is that this amount of manifestation which caused the creation of beings is enough for the world, if it is more than that, the world will crumble like the mountain crumbled.

https://www.islamquest.net/fa/archive/fa71391

14 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

Can we explain how Musa AS divided the sea or how Jesus AS raised the dead to life? 

Can these things be rationally or logically explained?

Do the laws of logic also hold true in Jannah?

Dividing sea maybe can be happened due to polarization by great amount of energy in similar fashion of creating levitation  for Maglev terains although required energy for seperating sea needs more & more energy field that yet it's still out of reach of humans .

 existance of anything likewise light & rivers & existance of trees in Jannah is a proof for existance of law of logic in Jannah .

we don't enough information about soul in order to say how rising the dead  has been happened by prophet Isa (عليه السلام) anyway there are some far fetch theories which by electrical stimulation the dead cells or dead corpes may show some moves & stimulation .

 

 

[Muslim2010]

On 2/25/2023 at 4:43 AM, Simple thinking said:

Quran 7:143

When Moses came at the appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he asked, “My Lord! Reveal Yourself to me so I may see You.” Allah answered, “You cannot see Me! But look at the mountain. If it remains firm in its place, only then will you see Me.” When his Lord appeared to the mountain, He levelled it to dust and Moses collapsed unconscious. When he recovered, he cried, “Glory be to You! I turn to You in repentance and I am the first of the believers.”

God's true Essence can also not be recognized by our eyes in this world or in the Hereafter just as God's Truth cannot be recognized by us. It is even impossible for the Prophets ((عليه السلام).) and God's Trustees to see Him with their physical eyes.

Moses ((عليه السلام).) went to the place to meet God along with seventy of the Israelites as we read in the following verse,

“And Moses chose seventy of his people for Our place of meeting….” The Holy Quran Al-A'araf 7:155.

And God spoke to Moses ((عليه السلام).), stating,

“And remember ye stated: 'O Moses! We shall never believe in thee until we see Allah manifestly'" but ye were dazed with thunder and lightning even as ye looked on."” The Holy Quran: Al-Baqara 2:55.

Most commentators are of the opinion that Moses ((عليه السلام).) asked the following from God due to the request of the Israelites,

“…'O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee.' Allah stated: 'By no means canst thou see Me (direct); But look upon the mount; if it abide in its place, then shalt thou see Me.' When his Lord manifested His Glory on the Mount, He made it as dust. And Moses fell down in a swoon. When he recovered his senses he stated: 'Glory be to Thee! to Thee I turn in repentance, and I am the first to believe.'” The Holy Quran: Al-A'arf 7:143.

If it were asked why Moses ((عليه السلام).) stated, '…I am the first to believe' while many believers existed before him, the answer would be that he meant he was the first one to believe that no one can see God with the physical eyes. This is the opinion of most of the commentators. However, the late Allameh Tabatabaee has a different view regarding the following words of Moses, "O my Lord! show (Thyself) to me, that I may look upon thee." He states, "What Moses ((عليه السلام).) meant was not looking physically. He ((عليه السلام).) meant to see God using his insight similar to what happens after death when the veils to the unseen world are removed and man can see the metaphysical things. This is similar to the case when Abraham prayed to God and stated,

“My Lord! Show me how Thou givest life to the dead.” The Holy Quran: Al-Baqara 2:260.

A call was heard,

“…He stated: 'Dost thou not then believe?' He stated: 'Yea! but to satisfy my own undertaking.'…” The Holy Quran: Al-Baqara 2:260.

The request of Moses ((عليه السلام).) was similar to that of Abraham and he ((عليه السلام).) just wanted to attain this metaphysical experience before death."22

If the request of Moses ((عليه السلام).) is taken to be with his insight and not seeing with the eyes, then we can realize the high rank of the Commander of the Faithful Ali ((عليه السلام).) who stated, "My certitude would not increase even if the veils to the unseen are pushed aside."23

This means that Ali ((عليه السلام).) had the same certitude that we would gain after we die and the veils to the unseen are pushed aside. This shows how much he ((عليه السلام).) ranked higher than Moses ((عليه السلام).). The issue of seeing is a very important issue and a lot has been stated about it. For example, a man named Za'lab Yamani went to see Ali ((عليه السلام).) and asked him, "O Commander of the Faithful! Have you seen your Lord?"

The Imam ((عليه السلام).) replied, "I am not one to worship God without having seen Him." The man asked, "Then how did you see God?!" The Imam ((عليه السلام).) replied, "Eyes do not see Him face to face, but hearts perceive Him through the realities of belief. He is near to things but not (physically) contiguous.

He is far from them but not (physically) separate. He is a speaker, but not with reflection. He intends, but not with preparation. He moulds, but not with (the assistance of) limbs. He is subtle but cannot be attributed with being concealed. He is great but cannot be attributed with haughtiness. He sees but cannot be attributed with the sense (of sight). He is Merciful but cannot be attributed with weakness of heart. Faces feel low before His Greatness and hearts tremble out of fear of Him."24

The term 'looking towards' used in the following verse of the Holy Quran:

“Some faces, that Day, will beam (in brightness and beauty); Looking towards their Lord;” The Holy Quran: Al-Qiam a 75:22.23

is also not referring to physically seeing with the eyes. Rather, it refers to insight or observation by the heart or soul, since the veils to the unseen are pushed aside after death. We can conclude this from several narrations on the authority of the Immaculate Divine Leaders as mentioned by the late Sayyid Morteza in his book Al- Muhkam val-Mutashabih. This means that we will believe in the existence of God the Sublime on the Resurrection Day after the veils to the unseen are drawn aside, just as we believe something which we see in this world.

God is close to everything but is not observable. God is away from everything, but not apart from them. God speaks but not by narrating as the Commander of the Faithful Ali ((عليه السلام).) stated, "…He is near to things but not (physically) contiguous. He is far from them but not (physically) separate…"25

God is speaking, but not with his tongue and thinking power as the Commander of the Faithful Ali ((عليه السلام).) stated, "…He is a speaker, but not with reflection. He intends, but not with preparation. He moulds, but not with (the assistance of) limbs. He is subtle but cannot be attributed with being concealed. He is Great but cannot be attributed with haughtiness. He sees but cannot be attributed with the sense (of sight). He is Merciful but cannot be attributed with weakness of heart. Faces feel humble before His Greatness and hearts tremble out of fear of Him."26

God is speaking as He spoke to Moses ((عليه السلام).), and spoke to the Prophet Muhammad (S) on the night of his Ascension, but not by means of language and thought. Even the revelation of the Holy Quran to the Prophet Muhammad (S) is a form of speaking. But God's speaking is not due to thinking. God orders and the Quran is embedded in the heart of the Prophet Muhammad (S) as we read in the following verse of the Holy Quran,

“Verily, when He intends a thing, His Command is, "be", and it is!” The Holy Quran: Ya-Sin 36:82.

The Commander of the Faithful Ali ((عليه السلام).) added, "…He moulds, but not with (the assistance of) limbs. He is subtle but cannot be attributed with being concealed. He is Great but cannot be attributed with haughtiness. He sees but cannot be attributed with the sense (of sight). He is Merciful but cannot be attributed with weakness of heart. Faces feel humble before His Greatness and hearts tremble out of fear of Him."27

God dominates over all that can be seen. God is All-hearing which does not mean the God hears with the ears as we do. His Hearing is not by means of some physical means. On the contrary, His Knowledge encompasses everything. Therefore, God's being All-Seeing and All-Hearing are just His Essence similar to His Knowledge. However, God creates what is stated to have been spoken by Him. God is Merciful but His Mercy is not due to His Heart as it is in our case. God has Mercy and bestows it on everyone. Faces are humble in front of Him. And the hearts are trembling and scared because of being fearful of Him.

https://www.al-islam.org/bright-lights-guidance-muhammad-ali-khansary/chapter-3-monotheism#god-cannot-be-worshipped-he-deserves-be

[Muslim2010]

On 2/25/2023 at 4:43 AM, Simple thinking said:

Did Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) reveal himself to the mountain?

How did the mountain turn into dust? 

1. No 

2. A ray of light came causing  the mountain to dust.

[Muslim2010]

16 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

Can we explain how Musa AS divided the sea or how Jesus AS raised the dead to life? 

Can these things be rationally or logically explained?

The following verses explain these miracles:

Al-Ma'idah (The Table Spread) 5:110

إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسى ابْنَ مَرْيَمَ اذْكُرْ نِعْمَتِي عَلَيْكَ وَعَلَى وَالِدَتِكَ إِذْ أَيَّدتُّكَ بِرُوحِ الْقُدُسِ تُكَلِّمُ النَّاسَ فِي الْمَهْدِ وَكَهْلاً وَإِذْ عَلَّمْتُكَ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَالتَّوْرَاةَ وَالإِنجِيلَ وَإِذْ تَخْلُقُ مِنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ بِإِذْنِي فَتَنفُخُ فِيهَا فَتَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِي وَتُبْرِىءُ الأَكْمَهَ وَالأَبْرَصَ بِإِذْنِي وَإِذْ تُخْرِجُ الْمَوتَى بِإِذْنِي وَإِذْ كَفَفْتُ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ عَنكَ إِذْ جِئْتَهُمْ بِالْبَيِّنَاتِ فَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ مِنْهُمْ إِنْ هَـذَا إِلاَّ سِحْرٌ مُّبِينٌ

Lo! God will say: "O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember the blessings which I bestowed upon thee and thy mother-how I strengthened thee with holy inspiration, so that thou couldst speak unto men in thy cradle, and as a grown man; and how I imparted unto thee revelation and wisdom, including the Torah and the Gospel; and how by My leave thou didst create out of clay, as it were, the shape of [thy followers'] destiny, and then didst breathe into it, so that it might become, by My leave, [their] destiny ; and how thou didst heal the blind and the leper by My leave, and how thou didst raise the dead by My leave; and how I prevented the children of Israel from harming thee when thou camest unto them with all evidence of the truth, and [when] those of them who were bent on denying the truth were saying, `This is clearly nothing but deception!"'

The mricales given to the prophet Esa AS has been mentioned in clear verses of quran. Thus leaving no doubt any other mircales can take place by the prophst with the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

وَإِذْ قَالَ إِبْرَاهِيمُ رَبِّ أَرِنِي كَيْفَ تُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ ۖ قَالَ أَوَلَمْ تُؤْمِن ۖ قَالَ بَلَىٰ وَلَٰكِن لِّيَطْمَئِنَّ قَلْبِي ۖ قَالَ فَخُذْ أَرْبَعَةً مِّنَ الطَّيْرِ فَصُرْهُنَّ إِلَيْكَ ثُمَّ اجْعَلْ عَلَىٰ كُلِّ جَبَلٍ مِّنْهُنَّ جُزْءًا ثُمَّ ادْعُهُنَّ يَأْتِينَكَ سَعْيًا ۚ وَاعْلَمْ أَنَّ اللَّهَ عَزِيزٌ حَكِيمٌ

And when Ibrahim said: My Lord! show me how Thou givest life to the dead, He said: What! and do you not believe? He said: Yes, but that my heart may be at ease. He said: Then take four of the birds, then train them to follow you, then place on every mountain a part of them, then call them, they will come to you flying; and know that Allah is Mighty, Wise. (2:260)

Al-Imran (The Family of Imran) 3:84

قُلْ آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ عَلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأَسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَالنَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

Say: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed by their Sustainer unto Moses and Jesus and all the [other] prophets: we make no distinction between any of them. And unto Him do we surrender ourselves."

فَأَوْحَيْنَا إِلَىٰ مُوسَىٰ أَنِ اضْرِب بِّعَصَاكَ الْبَحْرَ ۖ فَانفَلَقَ فَكَانَ كُلُّ فِرْقٍ كَالطَّوْدِ الْعَظِيمِ

Then We revealed to Musa: Strike the sea with your staff. So it had cloven asunder, and each part was like a huge mound. (26:63)

Thus ways were created for Musa AS and their followers in the sea.

Al-Baqara (The Cow) 2:136

قُولُواْ آمَنَّا بِاللّهِ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَمَا أُنزِلَ إِلَى إِبْرَاهِيمَ وَإِسْمَاعِيلَ وَإِسْحَقَ وَيَعْقُوبَ وَالأسْبَاطِ وَمَا أُوتِيَ مُوسَى وَعِيسَى وَمَا أُوتِيَ النَّبِيُّونَ مِن رَّبِّهِمْ لاَ نُفَرِّقُ بَيْنَ أَحَدٍ مِّنْهُمْ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ

Say: "We believe in God, and in that which has been bestowed from on high upon us, and that which has been bestowed upon Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and ,their descendants, and that which has been vouchsafed to Moses and Jesus; and that which has been vouchsafed to all the [other] prophets by their Sustainer: we make no distinction between any of them. And it is unto Him that we surrender ourselves."

2. The verses of Quran have proivded us evidcnes for tehses miralces to take place by the prophets with the permission of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). "we make no distinction between any of them. And unto Him do we surrender ourselves."

wasalam

Edited February 26 by Muslim2010

[Muslim2010]

21 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

Do the laws of logic also hold true in Jannah?

Let me first clarify the situation in Jannah. Everything you like is allowed in Jannah, but you will not like anything there. That's the point. Here we may like things which might be either good or bad, but in Jannah people are purified before entering Jannah, so they will only like what is good. This opinion is backed with at least Shia Ahadeeth interpreting verses of Quran, mentioning Allah purifying Ahl-ul Jannah before their entrance to Jannah:

إِنَّ الَّذِينَ يَشْتَرُونَ بِعَهْدِ اللَّـهِ وَأَيْمَانِهِمْ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًا أُولَـٰئِكَ لَا خَلَاقَ لَهُمْ فِي الْآخِرَةِ وَلَا يُكَلِّمُهُمُ اللَّـهُ وَلَا يَنظُرُ إِلَيْهِمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ وَ لَا يُزَكِّيهِمْ وَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ

Indeed, those who exchange the covenant of Allah and their [own] oaths for a small price will have no share in the Hereafter, and Allah will not speak to them or look at them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them; and they will have a painful punishment. (3:77)

In this verse, Allah states who He will not purify at the judgment day, and will punish instead. This is totally the reverse for those going to the hell, as they will ask Allah in hell for what will be bad for them, increasing their punishment. They are those who frequently used to request for what was indeed bad for them.

قَدْ أَفْلَحَ مَن زَكَّاهَا ﴿٩﴾ وَقَدْ خَابَ مَن دَسَّاهَا ﴿١٠﴾

He has succeeded who purifies it, (91:9) And he has failed who instills it [with corruption]. (91:10)

فَمَن يُرِدِ اللَّهُ أَن يَهْدِيَهُ يَشْرَحْ صَدْرَهُ لِلْإِسْلَامِ ۖ وَمَن يُرِدْ أَن يُضِلَّهُ يَجْعَلْ صَدْرَهُ ضَيِّقًا حَرَجًا كَأَنَّمَا يَصَّعَّدُ فِي السَّمَاءِ ۚ كَذَٰلِكَ يَجْعَلُ اللَّهُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ

Therefore (for) whomsoever Allah intends that He would guide him aright, He expands his breast for Islam, and (for) whomsoever He intends that He should cause him to err, He makes his breast strait and narrow as though he were ascending upwards; thus does Allah lay uncleanness on those who do not believe. (6:125)

وَمَا كَانَ لِنَفْسٍ أَن تُؤْمِنَ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ۚ وَيَجْعَلُ الرِّجْسَ عَلَى الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْقِلُونَ

And it is not for a soul to believe except by Allah's permission; and He casts uncleanness on those who will not understand. (10:100)

رَبَّنَا وَابْعَثْ فِيهِمْ رَسُولًا مِنْهُمْ يَتْلُو عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتِكَ وَيُعَلِّمُهُمُ الْكِتَابَ وَالْحِكْمَةَ وَيُزَكِّيهِمْ ۚ إِنَّكَ أَنْتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ  (2:129)

Our Lord! and raise up in them an Apostle from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise. (2:129)

wasalam