Shiism And The Quran

[Simple thinking]

Salam Alaikum

 

Quran 9:122

“˹However,˺ it is not necessary for the believers to march forth all at once. Only a party from each group should march forth, leaving the rest to gain religious knowledge then enlighten their people when they return to them, so that they ˹too˺ may beware ˹of evil˺.”

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) told sahaba to teach the deen. Is that wrong?

—-

Quran 42:38

“And those who have responded to their Lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend,”

The holy Quran says their affairs is by shura.

 

—————————/———————————

 

Another point in regards to Imamiyyah

 

 

Why is there no mention of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) ordering his people to follow the imam before he had assumed his position as imam? There is always an imam present, and the people must always follow their imam.

 

Quran 19:43

 

“O my father, knowledge has come to me that has not come to you. Follow me; I will guide you to a way that is even and straight.”

 

“So Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has stated that he has received knowledge that others have not and that his father should follow him, but how does that make sense? If there is an infallible imam and Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has not attained the position of imam, which is a position higher than prophethood, why is Ibrahim not calling his father to the highest Authority, i.e. the imam? 

Is Ibrahim (عليه السلام) father not supposed to recognise/acknowledge the imam of his time?”

 

An interesting question that was posed to me.
 

jazzak al khair advance. 

 

[Cool]

4 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) told sahaba to teach the deen. Is that wrong?

Salam!!

Infact Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is commanding them to go forth and seek religious knowledge.

4 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

Only a party from each group should march forth, leaving the rest to gain religious knowledge then enlighten their people when they return to them

From where they do receive the knowledge? 

From Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has appointed him as teacher according to Quran:

Shakir 62:2] He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,

Then comes the Ahlul Dhikr i.e., the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), because Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is Dhikr himself as the Quran (which is dhikr al-hakeem according to 3:58) was revealed on his very heart:

فَاسْأَلُواْ أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ

16:43 & 21:7

5 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

The holy Quran says their affairs is by shura

Yes, but appointing the successor of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or a Caliph was not "their affair". 

Shakir 28:68] And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).

Caliph on Earth was always chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى):

Shakir 2:30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

5 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

Why is there no mention of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) ordering his people to follow the imam before he had assumed his position as imam?

According to Quran, Ibrahim (عليه السلام) was the very first person who assumed the position & role of Imam:

Shakir 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

This divine covenant continued in his offspring in only among those who are not unjust. 

5 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

There is always an imam present, and the people must always follow their imam.

This clause applies only from Ibrahim (عليه السلام) on wards as stated briefly by Quran in 2:124

Secondly, there is always a proof of Allah (حجة الله) on Earth, otherwise the Earth will extinct. It is not necessary for the hujjah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to lead or even guide people without the divine command.

5 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has stated that he has received knowledge that others have not and that his father should follow him, but how does that make sense? If there is an infallible imam and Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has not attained the position of imam, which is a position higher than prophethood, why is Ibrahim not calling his father to the highest Authority, i.e. the imam? 

As stated earlier, no one assumed the position & role of Imam before Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام). 

The position of Imamate is said to be higher than the Prophethood because of the fact that Ibrahim (عليه السلام) was a Prophet prior to assuming the position as Imam. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) tried him and upon successful completion of that trial, He granted him the divine covenant i.e., Imamate according to 2:124

I hope I have answered your queries. You are welcome if you have any further question or want me to elaborate any point.

Wassalam!! 

[Ashvazdanghe]

5 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

uran 9:122

“˹However,˺ it is not necessary for the believers to march forth all at once. Only a party from each group should march forth, leaving the rest to gain religious knowledge then enlighten their people when they return to them, so that they ˹too˺ may beware ˹of evil˺.”

Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) told sahaba to teach the deen. Is that wrong?

Salam this is about knowing Imam not teaching Deen by Sahaba.

Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) - Muhammad ibn Muslim says: I said to Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him): "May Allah bless you, your complaint reached to us and we became upset. It is better if you inform us or appoint him [the scholar] for us." ? He said: Indeed, Ali (peace be upon him) was a scholar and knowledge is inherited. No scholar dies unless there is someone left after him who has his knowledge or whatever Allah wills. I said: " when a scholar dies, Do people have the right not to recognize the scholar after him ?" He said: "But about the people of this city [Madinah]  definetly no, but the people of other cities, so [their excuse] is as much as their distance from here." Indeed, Allah says: وَ مَا کَان المُؤْمِنُونَ لِیَنفِرُواْ کَآفَّةً فَلَوْلاَ نَفَرَ مِن کُلِّ فِرْقَةٍ مِّنْهُمْ طَآئِفَةٌ لِّیَتَفَقَّهُواْ فِی الدِّینِ وَ لِیُنذِرُواْ قَوْمَهُمْ إِذَا رَجَعُواْ إِلَیْهِمْ لَعَلَّهُمْ یَحْذَرُونَ»

Yet it is not for the faithful to go forth en masse. But why should not there a group from each of their sections go forth to become learned in religion, and to warn their people when they return to them, so that they may beware? (122)

Kafi v1 , p 279 /Ilal al-sharayi' v2, p591 /Bihar al Anawar  v27 , p 259 /Tafseer Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) v6 p290

 

Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) - Abd al-Ali says: From Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) about the saying of people who say: The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him and his progeny) said: "If someone dies and does not recognize the Imam of his time, he died the death of ignorance." I asked? He said: "I swear to Allah! This statement is true." I said: "If the Imam dies and a man is in Khorasan and  does not know his successor , is he excused?" He said: "No. When the Imam passes away, the authority of his will is applied to those who are in his city, and the right of person is over to those who are not in his city.

Why doesn't a group of them, don't migrate in similar fashion of a tribe [so that a tribe stays in Madinah], to learn about the religion [and the teachings and rules of Islam] and warn them when they return to their people?! Maybe they will be afraid [of opposing Allah's command] and refrain! Of course, when the news of the death of Imam (peace be upon him) reaches to them. Indeed, Allah the Almighty says: Whoever goes out of his home as a migration to Allah and His Prophet, then his death comes, his reward is with Allah. (Nisa/100). ... So if a man enters the city and asks: "Who is the guardian of so-and-so"? He should be called: "So-and-so". I said: "What if he assumed  a partner in the will"? He said: "Ask him and he will explain to you."

Kafi v1 p 378 /Tafseer Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) v6 p290

http://alvahy.com/توبه/122

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

6 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

Quran 42:38

“And those who have responded to their Lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend,”

The holy Quran says their affairs is by shura.

 

—————————/———————————

 

Another point in regards to Imamiyyah

It's again in similar fashion about knowing Imam of your time & obeying his command which it has Prerequisitions which they must avoid major sins  & forgive people when they are angry & defend themselves when they have been oppressed which all of it refers to infallible imams  .

—those who avoid major sins and indecencies, and forgive when angered; (37) those who answer their Lord, maintain the prayer, and [conduct] their affairs by counsel among themselves, and they spend out of what We have provided them; (38) those who, when afflicted by oppression, defend themselves. (39)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/42:38

Ali ibn Ibrahim( وَ الَّذِینَ اسْتَجابُوا لِرَبِّهِمْ؛ "(And those who have responded to their Lord )"means those who obey the command of their Allah in establishing the Imamate and obeying the Imam. وَ أقامووا الصَّلَةَ وَ عَمْرُهُمْ شوری بینهمْ "(established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves,)" means they accept what they are ordered to do and they consult with their imam about what they find necessary in the affairs of their religion.

Tafseer Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) v13 p646 /Qomi  v2 p 277

 

Quote

Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) - Luqman said to his son: "When you go on a journey with a group, consult with them a lot about your work, and when they consult with you, use your thinking and do not decide until you have thinked so then settled on a decision. Don't make a decision and don't act and don't say the answer to the advice until you get up and sit down and eat and sleep and pray and in the meantime use your thoughts and knowledge about the matter which has been being consulted, so that whoever doesn't have complete and pure benevolence towards the one who is consulting, Allah will take  his judge and understanding  and take away the being trustwothy from him.

Tafseer Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) v13 p648 / Makarim al Akhlaq  p252

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him and his progeny ) - Whoever consults with someone [in his work] will be guided to growth and goodness.

http://alvahy.com/شوری/38

Talha and Zubair said to Hazrat Ali, peace be upon him: We are with you on the condition that you consult with us in every matter, because our account is separate from others.Imam Ali (عليه السلام)  replied : «نظرت فى كتاب الله و سنة رسوله فامضيت ما دلانى عليه و اتبعته و لم احتج الى آرائكما فيه و لا رأى غيركما و لو وقع حكم ليس فى كتاب الله بيانه و لا فى السنة برهانه و احتيج الى المشاورة فيه لشاورتكما فيه» «1»

I look in the Book of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger, I follow whatever it was and I don't need your' or others' opinion and advice, but whenever there is a matter for which I have no evidence in the Book and Sunnah and I need to consult you, I will consult you.

Quote

Consult with pious scientists.
Put in your counsel those who are Allah-fearing.
  With pious people who prefer Resurrection over livelihood

 

Quote

Question: Why is consultation with women prohibited in letter 31 of Nahj al-Balagha?

Answer: Consultation is not subject to gender, but rather to criteria. Imam Ali, peace be upon him, says:

«فان رأيهن الى افن», because she is an emotional and sentimental , usually her opinion is not a logical argument. Therefore, in another hadith, he says: Whenever you have an experience of a woman's intellect and perfection, consult her. Therefore, the reason for not consulting with women was the shallowness  in the opinion, and if a man is like this, he should not be consulted.

https://wiki.ahlolbait.com/آیه_38_سوره_شوری

[Muslim2010]

10 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

Quran 42:38

“And those who have responded to their Lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend,”

I like to add that the choice and selection of the prophets, Imams and leaders for  the guidance of the people is done by the command of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) , it is not the right of the people in any manner. the following links may be seen for further details:

 

 

wasalam

[Borntowitnesstruth]

On 2/2/2023 at 7:03 AM, Simple thinking said:

And those who have responded to their Lord and established prayer and whose affair is [determined by] consultation among themselves, and from what We have provided them, they spend,”

This is applicable when the governing body has no access to Prophet or Imam who could guide them to truth. In the presence of Prophet or Imam, the consultation with other people who are not certain about their source of knowledge is a sin. 

 

On 2/2/2023 at 7:03 AM, Simple thinking said:

Why is there no mention of Ibrahim (عليه السلام) ordering his people to follow the imam before he had assumed his position as imam? There is always an imam present, and the people must always follow their imam.

Prophet and Imam are both leaders for people if there would have been a Prophet or Imam during the time of Prophet Ibrahim who had higher status than Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) then Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) would have followed him.

On 2/2/2023 at 7:03 AM, Simple thinking said:

So Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has stated that he has received knowledge that others have not and that his father should follow him, but how does that make sense? If there is an infallible imam and Ibrahim (عليه السلام) has not attained the position of imam, which is a position higher than prophethood, why is Ibrahim not calling his father to the highest Authority, i.e. the imam? 

Who was that Imam who existed during the time of Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) and was not followed?

[Simple thinking]

On 2/2/2023 at 1:29 AM, Cool said:

Salam!!

Infact Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is commanding them to go forth and seek religious knowledge.

From where they do receive the knowledge? 

From Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has appointed him as teacher according to Quran:

Shakir 62:2] He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error,

Then comes the Ahlul Dhikr i.e., the Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام), because Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) is Dhikr himself as the Quran (which is dhikr al-hakeem according to 3:58) was revealed on his very heart:

فَاسْأَلُواْ أَهْلَ الذِّكْرِ إِن كُنتُمْ لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ

16:43 & 21:7

Yes, but appointing the successor of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or a Caliph was not "their affair". 

Shakir 28:68] And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).

Caliph on Earth was always chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى):

Shakir 2:30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

According to Quran, Ibrahim (عليه السلام) was the very first person who assumed the position & role of Imam:

Shakir 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

This divine covenant continued in his offspring in only among those who are not unjust. 

This clause applies only from Ibrahim (عليه السلام) on wards as stated briefly by Quran in 2:124

Secondly, there is always a proof of Allah (حجة الله) on Earth, otherwise the Earth will extinct. It is not necessary for the hujjah of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) to lead or even guide people without the divine command.

As stated earlier, no one assumed the position & role of Imam before Prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام). 

The position of Imamate is said to be higher than the Prophethood because of the fact that Ibrahim (عليه السلام) was a Prophet prior to assuming the position as Imam. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) tried him and upon successful completion of that trial, He granted him the divine covenant i.e., Imamate according to 2:124

I hope I have answered your queries. You are welcome if you have any further question or want me to elaborate any point.

Wassalam!! 

The individual states “This is terrible argument does he reject surah baqarah ayat 30 has nothing to do with imamah?”

Akhi can you furthermore explain 

Quran 2:30 And [mention, O Muḥammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority."1 They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we exalt You with praise and declare Your perfection?"2 He [Allāh] said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

[Cool]

10 hours ago, Simple thinking said:

surah baqarah ayat 30 has nothing to do with imamah?”

Akhi can you furthermore explain 

Quran 2:30 And [mention, O Muḥammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority."1 They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we exalt You with praise and declare Your perfection?"2 He [Allāh] said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."

Salam!

Ayat 30 of chapter 2 is not a proof for Imamah, neither I have quoted that verse in support of the concept of Imamah. Here are my words:

On 2/2/2023 at 12:29 PM, Cool said:

Yes, but appointing the successor of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or a Caliph was not "their affair". 

Shakir 28:68] And your Lord creates and chooses whom He pleases; to choose is not theirs; glory be to Allah, and exalted be He above what they associate (with Him).

Caliph on Earth was always chosen by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى):

Shakir 2:30] And when your Lord said to the angels, I am going to place in the earth a khalif, they said: What! wilt Thou place in it such as shall make mischief in it and shed blood, and we celebrate Thy praise and extol Thy holiness? He said: Surely I know what you do not know.

2:30 mentioning Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) making (Adam (عليه السلام)) caliph on Earth. So choosing either successor of Prophet or either caliph, was not the "affair" of companions as the verse 28:68 states.

I hope I am clear now.

Wassalam!!