You thought LGBTIQ was it? Bestiality is next.

[313_Waiter]

In Shia sources, we find the mention of a Hadith mentioning signs of the end times. One part of this Hadith has already come true with the acceptance of homosexuality and homosexual marriage in particular:

“And you will see men earn a livelihood from homosexuality and women earn a livelihood from prostitution.”

وَ رَأَيْتَ النِّسَاءَ يَتَّخِذْنَ الْمَجَالِسَ كَمَا يَتَّخِذُهَا الرِّجَالُ

The next part of this Hadith is yet to come true, namely bestiality:

”And you will see bestiality (sex with animals)”

 

وَ رَأَيْتَ الْبَهَائِمَ يَفْرِسُ بَعْضُهَا بَعْضاً

Source: Al-Kulayni, Al-Kaafi, vol. 8, pg. 36 - 42, hadeeth # 7, Mir'aat Al-`Uqool, vol. 25, pg. 82, Al-Majlisi, Bihar Al-Anwar, vol. 52, pg. 256 - 260, hadeeth # 147

https://www.al-islam.org/universal-government-mahdi-naser-makarem-shirazi/signs-beginning-revolution

 

May Allah protect us from this fitna.

[313_Waiter]

With the Balenciaga fiasco we already know that  pedophilia is something the elite practice. I wonder if they will try to normalise this as the next addition to LGBTIQ+++.

Is there mention of this in ahadith like there is mention of homosexuality.

[313_Waiter]

There’s also ahadith about men looking like women and women looking like men, perhaps hinting the transgender movement:

Quote

Salman ((رضي الله عنه).) said: “And is this to happen, O Messenger of Allah?” The Holy Prophet (S) said: “Yes, by (Allah) in whose hand is my soul.
“O Salman, and at that time males will satisfy their lust with males; and females will satisfy their lust with females; and minor boys will be mounted upon like women; and the males will liken themselves to females; and females will look like males; and females will ride the saddles. So there will be Curse of Allah upon those women of my Ummat.”
https://www.al-islam.org/signs-advent-mahdi-aj-sayyid-muhammad-husayn-tabatabai/signs-advent-mahdi-aj-quranic-cum-traditional

Interestingly, this below hadith specifically refers homosexual marriage, which from what I know was not a thing in the past:

Quote

And you will see women marry women

 وَ رَأَيْتَ النِّسَاءَ يَتَزَوَّجْنَ ال

http://www.revivingalislam.com/2011/04/signs-of-day-of-judgment.html 

 

[Guest what]

Religious or not I think most if not all people agree that bestiality is immoral. Even people who partake in these acts probably know what they’re doing is wrong. What is so immoral about being homosexual? Like where does the wrongness lie? If it’s two consenting adults how is that the same as an adult human and an animal? It really makes no sense when muslims compare homosexuality to things like pedophilia and bestiality because both parties are equals in homosexuality and it’s not really harming anyone… 

[Abu_Zahra]

1 hour ago, Guest what said:

Religious or not I think most if not all people agree that bestiality is immoral. Even people who partake in these acts probably know what they’re doing is wrong. What is so immoral about being homosexual? Like where does the wrongness lie? If it’s two consenting adults how is that the same as an adult human and an animal? It really makes no sense when muslims compare homosexuality to things like pedophilia and bestiality because both parties are equals in homosexuality and it’s not really harming anyone… 

The more apt comparison would be incest which is already being pushed hard now that homosexuality has been normalized. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/decider.com/2016/01/14/dear-tv-writers-enough-with-the-incest-already/amp/

 

[Guest what]

1 hour ago, Abu_Zahra said:

The more apt comparison would be incest which is already being pushed hard now that homosexuality has been normalized. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/decider.com/2016/01/14/dear-tv-writers-enough-with-the-incest-already/amp/

 

Not really… People who commit incest probably know it is wrong on some level. Incest relationships particularly between parents and their offspring is like bestiality and pedophilia with an imbalanced power dynamic. What is “wrong” about homosexuality that is similar to what is wrong about the above? Is it just the fact that it strays away from what is considered normal in society? 

[313_Waiter]

4 hours ago, Guest what said:

Religious or not 

Morality without religion or a higher source of truth is subjective and simply based on what is aesthetically pleasing to the individual i.e. it has no inherent truth, so I think it matters whether you’re “religious or not”. If you’re non-religious you have no legs to stand on. 

4 hours ago, Guest what said:

Like where does the wrongness lie?

For us it’s enough that God forbids it in the Abrahamic tradition. We do not bother pleasing the materialists and hedonists that only view things from a sensory perspective.

“Yet it may be that you dislike something while it is good for you, and it may be that you love something while it is bad for you, and Allah knows and you do not know.” (2:216).

 

4 hours ago, Guest what said:

it’s two consenting adults how is that the same as an adult human and an animal?

I was not equivocating the two practices as exactly the same, but viewing both in light of Islamic eschatology.  
 

The overused “two consenting adults” argument can easily be refuted. If there’s a way you could prove the animal “consents” then this would be perfectly moral to you. Or by this standard there’s nothing wrong with homosexual incest, or incest with contraception, as the brother above mentioned.

 

Edited January 15 by 313_Waiter

[Guest what]

20 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

Morality without religion or a higher source of truth is subjective and simply based on what is aesthetically pleasing to the individual i.e. it has no inherent truth, so I think it matters whether you’re “religious or not”. If you’re non-religious you have no legs to stand on. 

I agree to an extent. But humans are intelligent beings with an innate fitrah. There was a muslim man on reddit the other day who wanted a hadith which forbade martial rape, because he wanted to commit it. So basically he thinks it’s okay to rape his wife so long as his religion says it is okay and the only thing stopping him was a hadith. Depending on religious scripture to this extent without using your intelligence and humanity is just stupidity. The whole point of haram/halal in this existence is so we can avoid certain acts which harm on an individual or collective basis. What harm does being gay pose?

 

33 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

For us it’s enough that God forbids it in the Abrahamic tradition. We do not bother pleasing the materialists and hedonists that only view things from a sensory perspective.

I’m sorry, but that is not a good enough reasoning. You cannot just “because God said” everything. Like I stated above there needs to be more than just religious scripture. Asking for rationalisation about why to avoid certain things  is not unreasonable. Maybe for you it is enough, but a gay person minding their own business and living life not harming anyone wants to know why they are destined to hell. What wrong are they committing that warrants them an eternal existence of punishment? Just because God said? 
 

 

37 minutes ago, 313_Waiter said:

The overused “two consenting adults” argument can easily be refuted. If there’s a way you could prove the animal “consents” then this would be perfectly moral to you. Or by this standard there’s nothing wrong with homosexual incest, or incest with contraception, as the brother above mentioned.

No actually, consent is not the only thing to factor in any of these relationships. I was not focusing on the consent aspect being the reason why one relationship is more immoral than the other. 
Question: do you think a father-son relationship is equally “wrong” because it is a father and son and because they are both men?

[Borntowitnesstruth]

7 hours ago, Guest what said:

Religious or not I think most if not all people agree that bestiality is immoral. Even people who partake in these acts probably know what they’re doing is wrong. What is so immoral about being homosexual? Like where does the wrongness lie? If it’s two consenting adults how is that the same as an adult human and an animal? It really makes no sense when muslims compare homosexuality to things like pedophilia and bestiality because both parties are equals in homosexuality and it’s not really harming anyone… 

The most wrongful thing about homosexuality is that it eliminates a gateway to human existence. If you have to ascetain whether an act is good or bad, look at what effects it has on society. Any act which brings the downfall of a human existence is a crime.

[Guest what]

48 minutes ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

The most wrongful thing about homosexuality is that it eliminates a gateway to human existence. If you have to ascetain whether an act is good or bad, look at what effects it has on society. Any act which brings the downfall of a human existence is a crime.

Wouldn’t straight couples who refuse to have children be more of a harm to human existence? If their harm is on the basis of not being able to reproduce then wouldn’t infertile men and women also be harmful to society? Should we prevent infertile men and women from marrying fertile men and women? Homosexuals make such a small percentage of the population, and heterosexual couples exist at a too large magnitude for the human population to be realistically impacted by what you’re proposing

[VoidVortex]

4 hours ago, Guest what said:

6 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

 

Not really… People who commit incest probably know it is wrong on some level. Incest relationships particularly between parents and their offspring is like bestiality and pedophilia with an imbalanced power dynamic. What is “wrong” about homosexuality that is similar to what is wrong about the above? Is it just the fact that it strays away from what is considered normal in society? 

if you said this maybe 70 years ago, then you would have said that those who do homosexuality know it is wrong. What is wrong and what is right has been changing especially in the past few decades.

why is having a power dynamic a bad thing?

[Abu_Zahra]

16 minutes ago, VoidVortex said:

if you said this maybe 70 years ago, then you would have said that those who do homosexuality know it is wrong. What is wrong and what is right has been changing especially in the past few decades.

why is having a power dynamic a bad thing?

Fully agree. The hierarchy of the Quran and Sunnah for setting the framework of the shariah seems to now be replaced (by certain reformist movements) by society and the individual at the top and the Quran and sunnah at the bottom meaning that the Quran is reinterpreted to fit whatever society wants to justify and the sunnah is either rejected or restricted to previous times. 

Ultimately people want to keep the Muslim label while replacing the role of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) with their own desires. 

[Borntowitnesstruth]

2 hours ago, Guest what said:

Wouldn’t straight couples who refuse to have children be more of a harm to human existence? If their harm is on the basis of not being able to reproduce then wouldn’t infertile men and women also be harmful to society? Should we prevent infertile men and women from marrying fertile men and women? Homosexuals make such a small percentage of the population, and heterosexual couples exist at a too large magnitude for the human population to be realistically impacted by what you’re proposing

Those straight couples who don't want to have children at all because of no reason are not thought of as good example in the society and neither it is permissible for anyone to his son or daughter marry to infertile woman or man. 

In the first case, the couple have ability to conceive a child but they don't for a certain time after which they may change their decision to have children and in the second case, the couple being infertile is thought to have ability but they do not have ability. So, both these cases promote natural conduct of human nature. 

However, homosexuals neither have the capacity to conceive nor they are promoting the natural conduct of human nature rather they are reason of various imbalances in the society such as elimination of a family system and reason of spread of other immoralities where you see people advocating for incest, pedophilia and those who say they feel like animals. There is nothing positive Abt homosexuality.

Edited January 15 by Borntowitnesstruth

[kadhim]

3 hours ago, Guest what said:

Wouldn’t straight couples who refuse to have children be more of a harm to human existence? If their harm is on the basis of not being able to reproduce then wouldn’t infertile men and women also be harmful to society? Should we prevent infertile men and women from marrying fertile men and women? Homosexuals make such a small percentage of the population, and heterosexual couples exist at a too large magnitude for the human population to be realistically impacted by what you’re proposing

Indeed. People who are exclusively, unambiguously gay make up a small, stable share of the population that has showed no sign of changing in size over a period of four decades. By themselves their numbers are far too small to have any impact on birthrates, and they have no natural inclination to procreative sex anyway. Ironically, gay and lesbian people probably have more children in open societies, due to same-sex marriage and fertility technology. 

In the classical medieval period, there seems to have been no awareness that gays and lesbians even existed. The texts that warn against same-sex activity, particularly the texts talking about the different levels of punishment appropriate to different categories of people, clearly seem to be directed at same-sex experimentation by the majority of otherwise “heterosexual” people. 

“Homosexuality” in the medieval period seems to have been predominantly a phenomenon of situational homosexuality by straight people. Ironically, probably largely as an unfortunate side effect of more rigid forms of gender segregation. 

 

Edited January 15 by kadhim

[Borntowitnesstruth]

2 hours ago, kadhim said:

Indeed. People who are exclusively, unambiguously gay make up a small, stable share of the population that has showed no sign of changing in size over a period of four decades. By themselves their numbers are far too small to have any impact on birthrates, and they have no natural inclination to procreative sex anyway. Ironically, gay and lesbian people probably have more children in open societies, due to same-sex marriage and fertility technology. 

In the classical medieval period, there seems to have been no awareness that gays and lesbians even existed. The texts that warn against same-sex activity, particularly the texts talking about the different levels of punishment appropriate to different categories of people, clearly seem to be directed at same-sex experimentation by the majority of otherwise “heterosexual” people. 

“Homosexuality” in the medieval period seems to have been predominantly a phenomenon of situational homosexuality by straight people. Ironically, probably largely as an unfortunate side effect of more rigid forms of gender segregation. 

 

In a quote I read that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said: "Any one who tries to alter the manhood of a men will be subject to severe punishment in this world". Also, in a verse of the Holy Quran, it is written that the Shaitan said to Allah (عزّ وجلّ): "I will make people to slit the ears of animals". Thus, any person who tries to affect someone with a physical or psychological ailment like that of homosexuality, has committed a great sin against the humanity. 

The guys like you think you have been doing right thing by defending homosexuality even knowing the fact that it attracts other immoralities to rise such as those who think incest and acting like an animal is fine. What can be the worst effect of homosexuality than seeing guys like you defending it despite knowing that it's unnatural and attractor of other immoralities. Good always attracts good and bad always attract bad. 

Edited January 15 by Borntowitnesstruth

[khizarr]

35 minutes ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

such as those who think incest and acting like an animal is fine

And why would it give rise to thinking that incest or 'acting like an animal' is fine? 

[kadhim]

On 1/15/2023 at 9:50 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

In a quote I read that Imam Ali (عليه السلام) said: "Any one who tries to alter the manhood of a men will be subject to severe punishment in this world". Also, in a verse of the Holy Quran, it is written that the Shaitan said to Allah (عزّ وجلّ): "I will make people to slit the ears of animals". Thus, any person who tries to affect someone with a physical or psychological ailment like that of homosexuality, has committed a great sin against the humanity. 

The guys like you think you have been doing right thing by defending homosexuality even knowing the fact that it attracts other immoralities to rise such as those who think incest and acting like an animal is fine. What can be the worst effect of homosexuality than seeing guys like you defending it despite knowing that it's unnatural and attractor of other immoralities. Good always attracts good and bad always attract bad. 

No. I’m just defending reality. I’m just honest enough to recognize it doesn’t make any sense to force people into boxes they’re not made for. And that goes both ways. If you’re a guy who is attracted at all to women, it doesn’t make sense to sleep with dudes. Classical Islamic texts reflect this thinking, and I tend to agree with it. But it also doesn’t make sense for a dude who is just made to like dudes to try to pointlessly fight the nature God gave him. There is no reason or benefit to it.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

On 1/15/2023 at 10:37 AM, kadhim said:

No. I’m just defending reality. I’m just honest enough to recognize it doesn’t make any sense to force people into boxes they’re not made for. And that goes both ways. If you’re a guy who is attracted at all to women, it doesn’t make sense to sleep with dudes. Classical Islamic texts reflect this thinking, and I tend to agree with it. But it also doesn’t make sense for a dude who is just made to like dudes to try to pointlessly fight the nature God gave him. There is no reason or benefit to it.

First of all you have to understand that there is no any guy or a girl is naturally attracted to same gender, if it would have been true, this would have firstly shown into children but it's not. 

The only exceptional case where a person can be defended is the instance of an intersex that is person who appears a male but has female organs and female identity or a person appears a female but has male organs and male identity. Thus, if a intersex male is attracted towards males, it can be biologically proved that it's a female and intersex female attracts towards female, it can be proved biologically that's it's male. And, in either case, they should allowed to live as partners if one of them satisfies the role of husband and other as wife. 

[Borntowitnesstruth]

1 hour ago, khizarr said:

And why would it give rise to thinking that incest or 'acting like an animal' is fine? 

Because, it has been proved through the example of homosexuality that people like you tend to accept every dumb excuse they come up with such as merely saying that they were born that way to like such sins like incest or bestiality. 

[VoidVortex]

On 1/15/2023 at 10:37 AM, kadhim said:

I’m just honest enough to recognize it doesn’t make any sense to force people into boxes they’re not made for.

There are females who are very extroverted and like to express themselves, they think that hijab would limit their expression and force them into a box. This does not cause the religion to make an exception.

Of course maybe we could argue the homosexual example is different, fine.

Then I would say that homosexuals can still have meaningful relationships with the opposite gender, and marry. Maybe they won't be romantically attracted, but the romance part of marriage is in reality a small part of marriage anyways, that is concentrated in the first few months, and maybe they won't be sexually attracted, and in this case they can marry an asexual sister, or marry a sister but both undertake this hardship together. 

This hardship that homosexual brothers and sisters have is one they have to undertake, like those who are disabled must undertake, and those who have uncurable conditions. 

On 1/15/2023 at 10:37 AM, kadhim said:

If you’re a guy who is attracted at all to women, it doesn’t make sense to sleep with dudes.

the problem here, its not that it just doesn't make sense, the ahadith condemn the action in an extremely harsh tone. There are reasons most likely,

we don't know why, this has been forbidden for all of humanity, no matter the circumstance.

I also must add that spiritually, its impossible to achieve perfection without marrying someone of the opposite gender. 

I know that its not about reaching perfection, but about living a decent life at least, but a homosexual brother or sister can skillfully get through this life without committing a haram action. There are all kinds of ways that exist. 

On 1/15/2023 at 10:37 AM, kadhim said:

also doesn’t make sense for a dude who is just made to like dudes to try to pointlessly fight the nature God gave him. There is no reason or benefit to it.

One reason is that its a test. Even if you say its a bad reason, its still a reason and there is benefit in succeeding in the test, because that will result in the pleasure of God and the elevation of the individual. 

[khizarr]

3 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Because, it has been proved through the example of homosexuality that people like you tend to accept every dumb excuse they come up with such as merely saying that they were born that way to like such sins like incest or bestiality. 

And what makes you think I have or would utilize the "born that way" argument? I'm not sure why you and people like you tend to make assumptions so frequently.

[notme]

3 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

First of all you have to understand that there is no any guy or a girl is naturally attracted to same gender, if it would have been true, this would have firstly shown into children but it's not. 

This has been empirically demonstrated to be incorrect. Whether those individuals who are innately attracted to their own (apparent?) gender are intersex remains unproven. There is far more to human biology than we know. 

 

Marriage isn't wajib, therefore, it wouldn't make sense for homosexual acts to be forbidden based on lack of reproduction.  Is it possible that the prohibition is like in the case of the townspeople of Soddom, in which the men of the town were raping male outsiders who came near? 

[Ramiz Bangash]

20 hours ago, Guest what said:

Religious or not I think most if not all people agree that bestiality is immoral. Even people who partake in these acts probably know what they’re doing is wrong. What is so immoral about being homosexual? Like where does the wrongness lie? If it’s two consenting adults how is that the same as an adult human and an animal? It really makes no sense when muslims compare homosexuality to things like pedophilia and bestiality because both parties are equals in homosexuality and it’s not really harming anyone… 

If two siblings are consenting, then does that make it okay? No. The reality is that these people think that what they are doing is fine, but if we look back 50-60 years ago, you could get in serious trouble legally for it, ..

[kadhim]

5 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

First of all you have to understand that there is no any guy or a girl is naturally attracted to same gender, if it would have been true, this would have firstly shown into children but it's not. 

Bro, it’s not possible to “understand” something that isn’t true. These people exist. There are millions of gay and lesbian people telling the same basic life story. They aren’t all just making it up. Just stop. This denial becomes a form of kufr at a certain point. Denying aspects of reality because they are uncomfortable to your received ideology is not the behavior of a believer. 

[kadhim]

3 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

Then I would say that homosexuals can still have meaningful relationships with the opposite gender, and marry. Maybe they won't be romantically attracted, but the romance part of marriage is in reality a small part of marriage anyways, that is concentrated in the first few months, and maybe they won't be sexually attracted, and in this case they can marry an asexual sister, or marry a sister but both undertake this hardship together. 

Bro, be serious. 

Do a thought experiment and flip the script. Could you marry another dude for social purposes? How well do you think that would work for you? It’s a joke of a suggestion. 

You guys make God look absurd putting His name next to this kind of nonsense. 

3 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

This hardship that homosexual brothers and sisters have is one they have to undertake, like those who are disabled must undertake, and those who have uncurable conditions. 
 

No one is telling a disabled person God doesn’t want him to walk, that it’s a sin to walk. No one says God wants people to be sick, that it is a sin for them to be well. If you want to make an analogy in this direction, it would be like we perfected a neuralink to let the paralyzed person walk, or an injection that cured the disease, but we tried to say they couldn’t take it. 

This “it’s a test” rhetoric is empty words in this case. It’s not a serious response. Again, it makes a mockery out of God.

If we want to talk about a bisexual person, they are attracted to the opposite sex, but they have this nagging attraction to the same sex along side it, this could reasonably be portrayed as a test. But not the other thing. The other thing is not a test. It’s just empty torture. 

3 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

the problem here, its not that it just doesn't make sense, the ahadith condemn the action in an extremely harsh tone.

It comes to the same place. Islamic law is rational. It is practical. God doesn’t make people do or avoid things for no reason. If you find a case where this is happening, by basic theology, you are doing it wrong.

If someone is a heterosexual, or has a mixed attraction, there are rational, defensible reasons to ask them to stick to opposite sex marriage. There is a benefit to that.

There is no benefit to anyone to force gay and lesbian people to be celibate. It’s an empty sacrifice without reason or benefit. God doesn’t play with people’s lives like that. It’s a sin to do this to people. 

3 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

I also must add that spiritually, its impossible to achieve perfection without marrying someone of the opposite gender. 

Astaghfirullah. You have no basis to make such extreme claims. 

Edited January 15 by kadhim

[علوي]

17 hours ago, Guest what said:

I’m sorry, but that is not a good enough reasoning. You cannot just “because God said” everything. Like I stated above there needs to be more than just religious scripture. Asking for rationalisation about why to avoid certain things  is not unreasonable. Maybe for you it is enough, but a gay person minding their own business and living life not harming anyone wants to know why they are destined to hell. What wrong are they committing that warrants them an eternal existence of punishment? Just because God said? 

There are reasons, which have been mentioned in narrations from the infallible imams (PBUT). However, it is true that the reason we are against homosexuality is because Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) said it in the holy Quran, and through the prophets and imams (PBUT). We may not know the reasoning behind Allah's laws, nor do we need to, because our capacity for comprehension and logic is so limited. Imagine if you went to a doctor and he prescribed you a treatment; of course, you would want to know about the reasoning behind the prescription, but would you need to? No, because the doctor knows substantially more than you do about his field. Do you start a debate with him? "No, I think this and that would be better..."? No, of course not; that would be ridiculous. Similarly - rather, to an even greater extent - it would be nonsensical for us to reject Allah's law because it doesn't make sense.

To the point: Allah's reasoning behind the prohibition of homosexuality. Look at the hadeeth below.

Ali Bin Ahmad narrated to us, from Muhammad Bin Abu Abdullah, from Muhammad Bin Ismail, from Ali Bin Al Abbas, from Al-Qasim Bin Rabie Al-Sahaaf, from Muhammad Bin Sinan, says that Abul Hasan Ali ibn Musa Al-Reda (عليه السلام) wrote to him in answer regarding what he had written to ask him:

"The reason for the prohibition of the males for the males, and the females for the females is due to what is perpetrated among the women and the men what is not their natural disposition, and due to what is involved in the males coming to the males, and the females coming to the females, from the cutting off of the lineages, and the corruption of the system and the spoiling of the world."

(Source: ILLAL AL SHARAIE – V 2 Ch 340 H 2)

Imam al-Reda (عليه السلام) mentions multiple reasons for the prohibition of homosexuality.

The first reason is that male-male and female-female relationships are not natural. We were not designed to have intimacy with the same gender. This can be easily seen because male-male relationships often cause minor injuries.

The second reason is what is involved with male-male and female-female relationships. We see that there is an increased risk of STDs among homosexual couples. The risk of getting an STD if you have same-sex relations is increased.

The third reason is the cutting off of lineages. There will be less and less children born if the number of homosexual couples increase.

The fourth reason is the corruption of the system and the spoiling of the world. Homosexuality, no doubt, destroys the traditional family values. Gay rights activists today say that it is perfectly fine for children to grow up with two dads or two mums. However, it is evident that children require one father and one mother. Each plays their own role in the life of the child.

The father acts as a protector. He teaches the child to be responsible and strong.

The mother teaches the child care and compassion. Her relationship with the child is unique; there is no relationship more lovely than that of the mother and child.

It is for these reasons that homosexuality is prohibited in Islam.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

9 hours ago, khizarr said:

And what makes you think I have or would utilize the "born that way" argument? I'm not sure why you and people like you tend to make assumptions so frequently.

This is not an assumption, it is based on observation. The people like you tend to believe the emotional blackmail with which people come out to put a garb on their sins and you openly advocate their stand without understanding the fact that they are just deluding you guys. 

[313_Waiter]

Let’s not derail this thread before mods end up closing this thread.

The topic was about the end times, and what comes after the alphabet agenda e.g. bestiality, paedophilia.

 

@mods

[Borntowitnesstruth]

8 hours ago, notme said:

This has been empirically demonstrated to be incorrect. Whether those individuals who are innately attracted to their own (apparent?) gender are intersex remains unproven. There is far more to human biology than we know. 

 

Yeah empirically proven like people say there was a "gay gene" but there is no proof to that. Mere statements are not proof of a thing. If it would have been true, we would have seen this phenomenon in children up to the age of 7 but the fact is that it is actually brainwashing that does that work and people who advocate it are the main source of such brainwashing. 

9 hours ago, notme said:

Marriage isn't wajib, therefore, it wouldn't make sense for homosexual acts to be forbidden based on lack of reproduction.  Is it possible that the prohibition is like in the case of the townspeople of Soddom, in which the men of the town were raping male outsiders who came near? 

Marriage becomes wajib when there is fear of falling into sins. And, actually Imam Reza (عليه السلام) said that homosexuality is forbidden because if it becomes prevalent, it will be cause of extinction of human kind. No, it is not prohibited because of what you stated about Soddom even about Soddom Allah (عزّ وجلّ) has said that they used to practice an abominable act where by men came near men and women came near women. So, Quran explicitly criticizes this act. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

6 hours ago, kadhim said:

No one is telling a disabled person God doesn’t want him to walk, that it’s a sin to walk. No one says God wants people to be sick, that it is a sin for them to be well. If you want to make an analogy in this direction, it would be like we perfected a neuralink to let the paralyzed person walk, or an injection that cured the disease, but we tried to say they couldn’t take it. 

Salam this is just another comparing apples with oranges which it's possible that some people born with disability although always there have been ways for overcoming disability or facing with it for using it as speciall ability for some conditions & jobs which at least Shia Islam doesn't see being born with disabilty as a sin but on the other hand hemosexuality & LGBT are diseace of soul & mindset due to choice of people not being born by it .

6 hours ago, kadhim said:

If someone is a heterosexual, or has a mixed attraction, there are rational, defensible reasons to ask them to stick to opposite sex marriage. There is a benefit to that.

There is no benefit to anyone to force gay and lesbian people to be celibate. It’s an empty sacrifice without reason or benefit. God doesn’t play with people’s lives like that. It’s a sin to do this to people. 

This is totally wrong which although marriage is highly recommended deed but on the other hand Islam doesn't force a heterosexual, or has a mixed attraction to forced marriage with opposite gender but on the other hand if someone can't do marriage for any reason so then it has recommended to be celibate which it has been promised by Allah that he will help them through other Halal means.

Quote

Those who cannot afford marriage should be continent until Allah enriches them out of His grace. As for those who seek an emancipation deal from among your slaves, make such a deal with them if you know any good in them, and give them out of the wealth of Allah which He has given you. Do not compel your female slaves to prostitution when they desire to be chaste, seeking the transitory wares of the life of this world. Should anyone compel them, Allah will be forgiving and merciful to them following their compulsion. (33)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/24:33

7 hours ago, kadhim said:

Bro, it’s not possible to “understand” something that isn’t true. These people exist. There are millions of gay and lesbian people telling the same basic life story. They aren’t all just making it up. Just stop. This denial becomes a form of kufr at a certain point. Denying aspects of reality because they are uncomfortable to your received ideology is not the behavior of a believer. 

Denial of religion & faith comes from Kufr which denial of evil deeds likewise LGBT &etc comes from faith .

13 hours ago, kadhim said:

If you’re a guy who is attracted at all to women, it doesn’t make sense to sleep with dudes. Classical Islamic texts reflect this thinking, and I tend to agree with it.

There is advise from Ali (عليه السلام) to men who married is that when they have seen an attrractive woman other than their wife so immediately go to their wife & sleep with her wife for stopping making fantasy in mind of them & reducing their love toward their wife.

[khizarr]

14 minutes ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

This is not an assumption, it is based on observation. The people like you tend to believe the emotional blackmail with which people come out to put a garb on their sins and you openly advocate their stand without understanding the fact that they are just deluding you guys. 

So "people like me" are just irrational crazies that fall prey to emotional blackmailing? We're all just deluded? None of us have actually sat and thought it through? 

[Borntowitnesstruth]

7 hours ago, kadhim said:

Bro, it’s not possible to “understand” something that isn’t true. These people exist. There are millions of gay and lesbian people telling the same basic life story. They aren’t all just making it up. Just stop. This denial becomes a form of kufr at a certain point. Denying aspects of reality because they are uncomfortable to your received ideology is not the behavior of a believer. 

Yeah, there are million of terrorists mindsets that exist as well but it does not mean they are doing the right thing. And about Kufr, it is you my brother who are denying what Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and Ahlebait (عليه السلام) have criticized and making lawful what is unlawful.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

Just now, khizarr said:

So "people like me" are just irrational crazies that fall prey to emotional blackmailing? We're all just deluded? None of us have actually sat and thought it through? 

I will just say that there are people who are followers of Culture not religion, even if the culture be logically impossible to be proved. There were people like that in past who worshipped calf even though it did not make sense.

[Borntowitnesstruth]

7 hours ago, Ramiz Bangash said:

If two siblings are consenting, then does that make it okay? No. The reality is that these people think that what they are doing is fine, but if we look back 50-60 years ago, you could get in serious trouble legally for it, ..

Even if a person consents to commit suicide, he is not allowed to do it. The consent is seen only in lawful things not in unlawful things.

[Ashvazdanghe]

16 hours ago, kadhim said:

Indeed. People who are exclusively, unambiguously gay make up a small, stable share of the population that has showed no sign of changing in size over a period of four decades. By themselves their numbers are far too small to have any impact on birthrates, and they have no natural inclination to procreative sex anyway. Ironically, gay and lesbian people probably have more children in open societies, due to same-sex marriage and fertility technology. 

In the classical medieval period, there seems to have been no awareness that gays and lesbians even existed. The texts that warn against same-sex activity, particularly the texts talking about the different levels of punishment appropriate to different categories of people, clearly seem to be directed at same-sex experimentation by the majority of otherwise “heterosexual” people. 

“Homosexuality” in the medieval period seems to have been predominantly a phenomenon of situational homosexuality by straight people. Ironically, probably largely as an unfortunate side effect of more rigid forms of gender segregation. 

This is justehetoric of LGBT people which by stealing  children of a marriage between man & woman claim that they are fostering more childern which unfortunately there is some reports in Sweden which it's social care service forcefully has seperated children of muslim couples fro any reason so then it has given their children to LGBT couples  in similar fashion having children for LGBT through fertility & technology is a myth because it's just applies for helping true marriage of man & woman which for some reasons they can't have children which it seems LGBT community wants to loot their children .

In opposition to your claim people knew about gays & lesbians but due to social pressure or taboos or religious rullings expressing of it has been too rare  between public anyway your mentioned text have been written for facing some rare expression of it in public .

Hemosexuality &LGBT always have been due to Satanic affection & enmity of Shaitan with all children of humankind which always it has been justified by rhetorics likewise your rhetorics.