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In the Name of God بسم الله

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

It's a strange way to make his point but shirk is indeed the greatest of all sins and if one considers this to be shirk then his statement is indeed correct. 

Shirk is greatest of all sins, but I'm more consider on these people how easily they can make things to be look like shirk (when in reality they are debatable issues with reasoning, even in this situation, majority Sunnis do believe that they can ask Prophet Muhammad (saws) to ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for help) and how dangerous it can be to start accusing others to do shirk, degenerating the whole Ummah to these pity accusations and hate of each other.

Edited by Abu Nur
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:salam:

Wahabi and Abusufyani ways never cease to amaze me. 

Like a criminal, committing the worst of crimes one after another, is better than a pious person who would commit maybe one mistake in interpretation once ?

That's just an insult to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and sick. 

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Posted (edited)
On 1/6/2023 at 8:01 PM, Mahdavist said:

It's a strange way to make his point but shirk is indeed the greatest of all sins and if one considers this to be shirk then his statement is indeed correct. 

Agreed. On a separate note I feel like we shouldn't try to promote a channel like this either, simply because there's plenty of clips from our own lecturers that get mocked etc.

Edited by hamz786
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On 1/6/2023 at 9:01 PM, Mahdavist said:

It's a strange way to make his point but shirk is indeed the greatest of all sins and if one considers this to be shirk then his statement is indeed correct. 

:salam:

I disagree here since he is assuming that a devilish mind is better than a good mind who once stumbled upon a path. 

We may all have committed shirk without even knowing it, I would not go as far as saying that would be worse than his filthy example. 

My understanding of shirk in the eyes of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is that it is a way of life, which rejects the truth and persists on preaching falsehood. 

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On 1/6/2023 at 1:01 PM, Abu_Zahra said:

It's a strange way to make his point but shirk is indeed the greatest of all sins and if one considers this to be shirk then his statement is indeed correct. 

Salam Alakume.  I'm not picking on you or anything of that nature. I assume you are older than me and i dont intent to teach anything you dont already know.

This logic is very dangerous because it attempts to Destroy tawassual. If you destroy Tawassual all is left is Idol worship. All becomes shirk. This is an attack on tawhid.  This subverts true worship. To say you can approach God without any intermediaries. Is To say you can approach God with your ego alone, and this is the epitome of shirk.

To raise your ego and approach Allah with your ego is a major shirk. Because only a God can Approach a God. And God only Approachs us with intermediaries. So we can only approach god with intermediaries. Jazauallah khair. 

This issue on tawassual is very simple but easily confused, essentially with these absolutely brain dead Moronic Protestant Cohen confusing muslims.

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3 hours ago, azizaliallah said:

Salam Alakume.  I'm not picking on you or anything of that nature. I assume you are older than me and i dont intent to teach anything you dont already know.

This logic is very dangerous because it attempts to Destroy tawassual. If you destroy Tawassual all is left is Idol worship. All becomes shirk. This is an attack on tawhid.  This subverts true worship. To say you can approach God without any intermediaries. Is To say you can approach God with your ego alone, and this is the epitome of shirk.

To raise your ego and approach Allah with your ego is a major shirk. Because only a God can Approach a God. And God only Approachs us with intermediaries. So we can only approach god with intermediaries. Jazauallah khair. 

This issue on tawassual is very simple but easily confused, essentially with these absolutely brain dead Moronic Protestant Cohen confusing muslims.

Wa alaikum as salam brother. The idea that one cannot supplicate directly to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is a misconception. On the contrary the supplications in the Quran and in authentic hadith are indeed directly to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) defines tawassul in his sermon which you can read here:

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-110-best-means-which-seekers-nearness-allah

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On 1/11/2023 at 5:11 AM, Abu_Zahra said:

Wa alaikum as salam brother. The idea that one cannot supplicate directly to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is a misconception. On the contrary the supplications in the Quran and in authentic hadith are indeed directly to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) defines tawassul in his sermon which you can read here:

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-110-best-means-which-seekers-nearness-allah

I've seen you mention this point a few times in various threads on SC, about how there is no basis in Islam for invoking anyone's name other than Allah in our duas. I haven't looked into this deeply however what confuses me is, if what you claim is true, why so many of our scholars and speakers advocate for this exact thing? This includes the well-known Qazwinis, etc. Why do they advocate for something that you argue is an innovation, despite their extensive Islamic education?

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42 minutes ago, Uni Student said:

I've seen you mention this point a few times in various threads on SC, about how there is no basis in Islam for invoking anyone's name other than Allah in our duas. I haven't looked into this deeply however what confuses me is, if what you claim is true, why so many of our scholars and speakers advocate for this exact thing? This includes the well-known Qazwinis, etc. Why do they advocate for something that you argue is an innovation, despite their extensive Islamic education?

It's a good question brother, and I think the question should be addressed directly to those who advocate such views. I can only comment the following:

1. Firstly I don't think there are a lot of high ranking scholars who advocate this. I do however think that many turn a blind eye to it or avoid commenting on it if it isn't specifically brought to them.  Even when they do address it they will word their answers carefully so that there is an implication that the supplication is actually to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

2. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best but I think some people argue and fight for this only because it is a point that the Shia are attacked for (to the extent of takfir). Admitting that these acts don't have any basis in our religion would (in this particular case) result in agreeing with the position of people who are strongly opposed to us.

 

At the end of the day the most important thing is to remain in line with the Qur'an and the teachings of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). 

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On 1/12/2023 at 7:55 AM, VoidVortex said:

Salam, what do you mean by this?

Not going to explain it.

 

We Do Tawassual with the following.

People(Prophets, Imam, Saints) , Places(Kabba,Karbala,Shirnes),

Things,(Relics,Turab,Zulfiqar)

Acts(WUDU,GURBAN,FAST,SALAT,JIHAD)

To Draw near to Allah. That it. The Nafs of Insan cannot approach Allah, only thur Ihsan one can seek to be near to God.

Attack Tawassual you attack Monotheism. You end up worshiping your Desires and your ego with shaytan and Ibliss.

it's very romantic to tell people" just go and ask god directly" when these people dont know themselves nor they know God.

this a some shaytan advice.

 

Hope this helps.

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On 1/11/2023 at 4:11 AM, Abu_Zahra said:

Wa alaikum as salam brother. The idea that one cannot supplicate directly to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is a misconception. On the contrary the supplications in the Quran and in authentic hadith are indeed directly to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) defines tawassul in his sermon which you can read here:

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-110-best-means-which-seekers-nearness-allah

Yes brother I read the sermon this has nothing to do with supplication or "approaching God Directly" this is about tawassual. Which is talking vehicles to draw near to Allah. But I will leave it to others to decide for themselves. Should they take Neo Hambali Pagan Ego Worship , or imam ali.

Salam and good bless

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On 1/11/2023 at 2:41 PM, Abu_Zahra said:

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) defines tawassul in his sermon which you can read here:

https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons/sermon-110-best-means-which-seekers-nearness-allah

Salam

4 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

At the end of the day the most important thing is to remain in line with the Qur'an and the teachings of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, azizaliallah said:

Yes brother I read the sermon this has nothing to do with supplication or "approaching God Directly" this is about tawassual. Which is talking vehicles to draw near to Allah. But I will leave it to others to decide for themselves. Should they take Neo Hambali Pagan Ego Worship , or imam ali.

Salam and good bless

Salaam Aleikum,

What brother @Abu_Zahra is trying to say is not meant having some kind of direct connection with Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). Rather what is meant by Approaching God directly is in supplication manner and action where we can directly by words and action supplicate to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) without us going to person x to supplicate in our behalf.

And when My servants ask you, (O Muhammad), concerning Me – indeed I am near. I respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Me. So let them respond to Me (by obedience) and believe in Me that they may be (rightly) guided. [Sûrat Al-Baqarah, 2:186]

Say: 'Invoke God, or invoke the Most Gracious: by whichever name you invoke Him, [He is always the One-for] His are all the attributes of perfection.  And [pray unto Him; yet] be not too loud in thy prayer nor speak it in too low a voice, but follow a way in-between;  Qur'an 17:110

 

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1 hour ago, azizaliallah said:

it's very romantic to tell people" just go and ask god directly" when these people dont know themselves nor they know God.

this a some shaytan advice.

I wouldn't call it 'shaytan' advice if this is what Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is telling us to do in the Quran and the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) are telling us to do this in their sermons, narrations and supplications. 

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19 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

Say: 'Invoke God, or invoke the Most Gracious: by whichever name you invoke Him, [He is always the One-for] His are all the attributes of perfection

Lets see the Arabic text of the underline part of this verse

فَلَهُ الأَسْمَاء الْحُسْنَى 

17:110

Haven't you heard what Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said? 

نحن اسماء الله الحسنى

There is a difference between name and the named. An اسم cannot be the ذات otherwise the ذات would become something which could be composed (of words in this scenario) e.g., ALLAH, do we worship the name composed of these letters or do we worship the named? 

 

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As for the OP, what are his views on these verses:

وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ إِذ ظَّلَمُواْ أَنفُسَهُمْ جَآؤُوكَ فَاسْتَغْفَرُواْ اللّهَ وَاسْتَغْفَرَ لَهُمُ الرَّسُولُ لَوَجَدُواْ اللّهَ تَوَّابًا رَّحِيمًا

4:64

قَالُواْ يَا أَبَانَا اسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا خَاطِئِينَ

12:97

:furious:

Now let him apply what he says in his lecture & let him go to hell for ever.

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11 minutes ago, Cool said:

Lets see the Arabic text of the underline part of this verse

فَلَهُ الأَسْمَاء الْحُسْنَى 

17:110

Haven't you heard what Imam al-Sadiq (عليه السلام) said? 

نحن اسماء الله الحسنى

There is a difference between name and the named. An اسم cannot be the ذات otherwise the ذات would become something which could be composed (of words in this scenario) e.g., ALLAH, do we worship the name composed of these letters or do we worship the named? 

 

Yes, the names are indeed different than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) himself, the named. And it is true that there is no direct connection. But again, that is not what I try to imply here when we talk about "Approaching God directly".

Edited by Abu Nur
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Another verse where people are asking Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for their forgiveness:

سَيَقُولُ لَكَ الْمُخَلَّفُونَ مِنَ الْأَعْرَابِ شَغَلَتْنَا أَمْوَالُنَا وَأَهْلُونَا فَاسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا

48:11] Those of the dwellers of the desert who were left behind will say to you: Our property and our families kept us busy, so ask forgiveness for us. 

So Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) should have told them to ask forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly, He is near, He respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Him. 

Do we have any record where Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) tried to correct these people by telling them to establish contact directly with God Almighty?

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1 minute ago, Cool said:

Another verse where people are asking Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) for their forgiveness:

سَيَقُولُ لَكَ الْمُخَلَّفُونَ مِنَ الْأَعْرَابِ شَغَلَتْنَا أَمْوَالُنَا وَأَهْلُونَا فَاسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا

48:11] Those of the dwellers of the desert who were left behind will say to you: Our property and our families kept us busy, so ask forgiveness for us. 

So Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) should have told them to ask forgiveness from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly, He is near, He respond to the invocation of the supplicant when he calls upon Him. 

Do we have any record where Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) tried to correct these people by telling them to establish contact directly with God Almighty?

Nothing wrong to ask others to do du'a in your behalf, nor there is any problem to ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly either.

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Just now, Abu Nur said:

Nothing wrong to ask others to do du'a in your behalf, nor there is any problem to ask Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly either.

There is certainly no problem in asking Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) directly. The point raised in OP is related to shafa'ah. And that shafa'ah from no one else but the personality we know as "mercy of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for the worlds", the bearer of divine covenant. And there is a verse in Quran where Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has mentioned this exception:

لَا يَمْلِكُونَ الشَّفَاعَةَ إِلَّا مَنِ اتَّخَذَ عِندَ الرَّحْمَنِ عَهْدًا

19:87 

 

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12 hours ago, Abu_Zahra said:

It's a good question brother, and I think the question should be addressed directly to those who advocate such views. I can only comment the following:

1. Firstly I don't think there are a lot of high ranking scholars who advocate this. I do however think that many turn a blind eye to it or avoid commenting on it if it isn't specifically brought to them.  Even when they do address it they will word their answers carefully so that there is an implication that the supplication is actually to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

2. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knows best but I think some people argue and fight for this only because it is a point that the Shia are attacked for (to the extent of takfir). Admitting that these acts don't have any basis in our religion would (in this particular case) result in agreeing with the position of people who are strongly opposed to us.

 

At the end of the day the most important thing is to remain in line with the Qur'an and the teachings of the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). 

 

see 45:43 to 46:58

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2 hours ago, Uni Student said:

This is making my head hurt now, I don’t know which side to agree with and how to construct my duas :ko:

Easy: make dua as it is made in the Quran and in the authentic supplications transmitted to us from the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). You can never go wrong with this approach. 

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1 hour ago, Abu_Zahra said:

Easy: make dua as it is made in the Quran and in the authentic supplications transmitted to us from the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). You can never go wrong with this approach. 

Agreed, this would be going on the safe side. However the argument of the validity of invoking other names to increase the effectiveness of our duas remains. But thank you for your insight

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10 hours ago, Uni Student said:

However the argument of the validity of invoking other names to increase the effectiveness of our duas remains

I wouldn't think that you can have something more 'effective' than the revelation of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and after that the supplications as practiced and taught by the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام). 

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On 1/11/2023 at 10:13 AM, azizaliallah said:

Because only a God can Approach a God

There is not a God in existence except the God. 

 

Ya Allah guide the people to your religion and keep shirk away from them.

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Might be worth pointing out the following experience I recently had at an exhibition (about the life of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) in Medina:

On 2/5/2023 at 10:37 AM, Haji 2003 said:

As the guide (someone leads groups through the exhibition) said everything in it is backed by research. There is also a section on women's rights and the guide pointed out that 'our' religion is based 30% on material provided by a woman.

So far so predictable.

But there was one point where he said that the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) had said that he would intercede on behalf of people (can't remember whether he meant all of them or a proportion) buried in Baqi.

I was stunned. I thought I'd bring up this notice which appears at the entrance of Baqi, but thought better of it. The third paragraph denies the notion of intercession.

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