Infallibility of Prophets?

[Mark.E]

If the prophets and messengers are infallible, then how come so many of them sinned, or at least let God down? The big examples I know of are Adam and the apple, and King Solomon erecting pagan temples.

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

قَالَ هَٰذَا فِرَاقُ بَيْنِي وَبَيْنِكَ ۚ سَأُنَبِّئُكَ بِتَأْوِيلِ مَا لَمْ تَسْتَطِعْ عَلَيْهِ صَبْرًا {78}

[Pickthal 18:78] He said: This is the parting between thee and me! I will announce unto thee the interpretation of that thou couldst not bear with patience.

أَمَّا السَّفِينَةُ فَكَانَتْ لِمَسَاكِينَ يَعْمَلُونَ فِي الْبَحْرِ فَأَرَدْتُ أَنْ أَعِيبَهَا وَكَانَ وَرَاءَهُمْ مَلِكٌ يَأْخُذُ كُلَّ سَفِينَةٍ غَصْبًا {79}

[Pickthal 18:79] As for the ship, it belonged to poor people working on the river, and I wished to mar it, for there was a king behind them who is taking every ship by force.

وَأَمَّا الْغُلَامُ فَكَانَ أَبَوَاهُ مُؤْمِنَيْنِ فَخَشِينَا أَنْ يُرْهِقَهُمَا طُغْيَانًا وَكُفْرًا {80}

[Pickthal 18:80] And as for the lad, his parents were believers and we feared lest he should oppress them by rebellion and disbelief.

فَأَرَدْنَا أَنْ يُبْدِلَهُمَا رَبُّهُمَا خَيْرًا مِنْهُ زَكَاةً وَأَقْرَبَ رُحْمًا {81}

[Pickthal 18:81] And we intended that their Lord should change him for them for one better in purity and nearer to mercy.

وَأَمَّا الْجِدَارُ فَكَانَ لِغُلَامَيْنِ يَتِيمَيْنِ فِي الْمَدِينَةِ وَكَانَ تَحْتَهُ كَنْزٌ لَهُمَا وَكَانَ أَبُوهُمَا صَالِحًا فَأَرَادَ رَبُّكَ أَنْ يَبْلُغَا أَشُدَّهُمَا وَيَسْتَخْرِجَا كَنْزَهُمَا رَحْمَةً مِنْ رَبِّكَ ۚ وَمَا فَعَلْتُهُ عَنْ أَمْرِي ۚ ذَٰلِكَ تَأْوِيلُ مَا لَمْ تَسْطِعْ عَلَيْهِ صَبْرًا {82}

[Pickthal 18:82] And as for the wall, it belonged to two orphan boys in the city, and there was beneath it a treasure belonging to them, and their father had been righteous, and thy Lord intended that they should come to their full strength and should bring forth their treasure as a mercy from their Lord; and I did it not upon my own command. Such is the interpretation of that wherewith thou couldst not bear.

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Read 18:65 - 82. The interaction between Prophet Musa(عليه السلام) and Khizr(عليه السلام).  We are like Prophet Musa(عليه السلام) in our understanding of what the Prophet(عليه السلام) did. We do not comprehend, the reasons behind what on the surface seems unlawful.  Prophet Musa(عليه السلام) point of view of  those acts of Khzir(عليه السلام) were questionable and  incomprehensible based on the knowledge he had. 

Now look at the social experiments we have great data  to ponder over the basic realities. You will not follow a teacher, Manager or a leader of a Team, corporation or state  or army if he can't even abide by the constitution or the code of conduct of that unit. If this person who is assigned as a leader by the people who need to know to appoint one who can lead and is followed and his better compared to the ones he is suppose to lead. The failure is directed towards the people who assigned an incompetent leader. and the successive failure of the unit is their responsibility. In this case it would be "god". If there were people with better conduct and knowledge why were they not assigned to lead? So, this person has to be better in ALL aspects to be followed. 

Infallibility - They are infallible compared to us. Meaning, they are better in ALL aspects compared to us. We can't judge them. We are to follow their lead. If there were a remote possibility that we can Judge them, it means chaos and defeats the purpose. Judging in not allowed. Only Obedience is allowed.

What people did is to play with the meaning, take things out of context to support the worldly rulers who made errors and sinned. ( this is how they got away with it - prophet made errors and sinned so its ok for these leaders) . 

If you know anything about Karbala- the person who was the head of the government at that time - some say that their god is pleased with him- Imagine the message here- if a "god" could be pleased with someone who is responsible for Karabla. - the average guy is thinking  what is the issue with my sins- if god is pleased with that guy. my sins are nothing compared to him. So, all is good- 

These things are man made to play with the people's minds and control them thru sinners and wrongdoers. No reality to it. 

[Borntowitnesstruth]

16 hours ago, Mark.E said:

If the prophets and messengers are infallible, then how come so many of them sinned, or at least let God down? The big examples I know of are Adam and the apple, and King Solomon erecting pagan temples.

What I understood from the story of Prophet Adam (عليه السلام) is that eating the fruit from the tree was not a sin because there was no punishment for it but if you say that sending him to earth was his punishment then I would say that it was not a punishment because when Adam (عليه السلام) was going to be created Allah (عزّ وجلّ) said that I'm going to appoint a vicegerent on earth. So, it can be said that the trial of Prophet Adam (عليه السلام) was actually Marshmallow experiment to reveal the character of Iblees to Prophet Adam (عليه السلام).

As for Prophet Suleiman (عليه السلام), it is not true which you have written because it's not from Quran.

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Borntowitnesstruth

[Mark.E]

14 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

Now look at the social experiments we have great data  to ponder over the basic realities. You will not follow a teacher, Manager or a leader of a Team, corporation or state  or army if he can't even abide by the constitution or the code of conduct of that unit.

That does make sense. From a (culturally) Christian background, I understand that the Old Testament has a very cyclical theme of the Hebrews turning away from God and His Prophets in favor of politics and wealth, receiving punishments, then returning to Him.

 

6 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

it is not true which you have written because it's not from Quran.

I slowly find Islam to be more compelling, especially with matters like Tawhid and salat, but tahrif is difficult for me simply because the Old and New Testaments precede the Quran. I asked a Sunni friend of mine about Solomon, and he mentioned Harut and Marut, suggested that the nobility of Israel became involved in sorcery and polytheism and tried to frame Solomon for it.

[Abu Nur]

1 hour ago, Mark.E said:

but tahrif is difficult for me simply because the Old and New Testaments precede the Quran.

The reason why it is not difficult to believe that tahrif could have occured in Old Testament and the New is exactly how old are these scriptures and how they have been interpreted for many generations and could change their original meaning. If we assume (or show) that this is true, then if God want to fix this matter, is it not a logical step to send a messenger to show exactly where it went wrong? This is why precede argument is not valid here, because it is possible that newst God revelation could fix the matter. Anyway, one needs to look at these tahrif claims and prove if they really are valid and logical, then to believe in them or not.

Edited December 29, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Borntowitnesstruth]

2 hours ago, Mark.E said:

but tahrif is difficult for me simply because the Old and New Testaments precede the Quran.

What do you mean by Tahrif? Do you mean depravation in old and new testament? If you mean depravation then you can find many conflicting verses in both these books along with history as regards their controversial compilation history.

[kadhim]

The idea of infallibility of prophets is a quirky one. 
There’s a relatively convincing rational argument for the idea that prophets must have been infallible. This seems to go up against a number of Quran passages about different figures, although there are sort of standard responses to those to say it wasn’t really sinning or a mistake. Some of these being more convincing than others. Interestingly, I started a thread some months back to see if there was any textual basis for the idea of infallibility, and it was pretty sparse. I think someone found one or two obscure hadith to support the idea. 

Tahrif is another odd idea. The idea that Christians and Jews physically altered the text of the Bible is quite widespread in the community. But there really isn’t a lot of textual basis in Islamic scripture to support that view. Of course there is the reality that most of the Bible is understood even by Jews and Christians as a human written and assembled book of multiple authors over centuries. But beyond that, the idea that Jews and Christians rewrote texts after they were written isn’t actually very visible at all in the Quran.

That said, it is quite possible to distort a text even without changing the words, if someone applies a distorted interpretation. I think our community would have more productive discussions if they just focused on saying Jewish and Christian scholars misinterpreted what they had rather than suggesting edits we have no evidence of. 

[Abu Nur]

42 minutes ago, kadhim said:

Tahrif is another odd idea. The idea that Christians and Jews physically altered the text of the Bible is quite widespread in the community. But there really isn’t a lot of textual basis in Islamic scripture to support that view. Of course there is the reality that most of the Bible is understood even by Jews and Christians as a human written and assembled book of multiple authors over centuries. But beyond that, the idea that Jews and Christians rewrote texts after they were written isn’t actually very visible at all in the Quran.

 

Salaam Aleikum,

This verse even indicate that it is not the book themselves that are corrupted but that the people distort the books by their own interpretation and desire:

وَإِنَّ مِنْهُمْ لَفَرِيقًا يَلْوُونَ أَلْسِنَتَهُمْ بِالْكِتَابِ لِتَحْسَبُوهُ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمَا هُوَ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَيَقُولُونَ هُوَ مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ وَمَا هُوَ مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ وَيَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللَّهِ الْكَذِبَ وَهُمْ يَعْلَمُونَ

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues: (As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, “That is from Allah,” but it is not from Allah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! Al-Imran:78 

Then we have an verse that indicate that Jews and Christians should be judging themselves by their own book:

But how can they ask you to judge them when they have the Torah, in it is Allah's judgement, and even then they still turn away? These are not believers. Qur'an. 5:43

And We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming that which was (revealed) before him in the Torah, and We bestowed on him the Gospel wherein IS guidance and a light, confirming that which was (revealed) before it in the Torah - a guidance and an admonition unto those who ward off (evil). Let the People of the Gospel judge by that which Allah hath revealed therein. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are evil-livers. Qur'an. 5:46-47

Edited December 29, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Mark.E]

14 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

This verse even indicate that it is not the book themselves that are corrupted but that the people distort the books by their own interpretation and desire

Interesting. Then the specific five books of the Torah are considered pure, while the rest of the Old Testament, including the Book of Kings that accuses Solomon of idolatry, is up for debate in Islam.

14 hours ago, kadhim said:

The idea of infallibility of prophets is a quirky one.

There’s a relatively convincing rational argument for the idea that prophets must have been infallible. This seems to go up against a number of Quran passages about different figures, although there are sort of standard responses to those to say it wasn’t really sinning or a mistake. Some of these being more convincing than others. Interestingly, I started a thread some months back to see if there was any textual basis for the idea of infallibility, and it was pretty sparse. I think someone found one or two obscure hadith to support the idea.

That said, it is quite possible to distort a text even without changing the words, if someone applies a distorted interpretation. I think our community would have more productive discussions if they just focused on saying Jewish and Christian scholars misinterpreted what they had rather than suggesting edits we have no evidence of.

Very enlightening, thank you. If I understand correctly, Islam claims that all humans are capable of "missing the mark" at times, but distinguishes between 1. honest incidental mistakes where believers "trip and fall" because of Shaytan, and 2. willful, outright sin? I did once hear a claim that the Prophet, once in his life, missed the morning prayer with his battle-exhausted army, but it was from one of those billion-subscriber Sunni channels on Youtube like MercifulServant. I am opening up to this concept, but again, with my very surface-level knowledge, it seems to run up against ismah and the belief that the Ahl-ul Bayt is "purified": if they are pure, then surely the Shaytan should have *zero* influence over them.

[VoidVortex]

10 hours ago, Mark.E said:

I did once hear a claim that the Prophet, once in his life, missed the morning prayer with his battle-exhausted army, but it was from one of those billion-subscriber Sunni channels on Youtube like MercifulServant. I am opening up to this concept, but again, with my very surface-level knowledge, it seems to run up against ismah and the belief that the Ahl-ul Bayt is "purified": if they are pure, then surely the Shaytan should have *zero* influence over them.

we certainly don't accept that the Prophet missed his morning prayer. We believe the Prophet was protected from sin and mistake so missing the morning prayer for the Prophet in our belief would be unacceptable. 

And yes, certainly Satan has 0 influence on the Ahlulbayt and the Prophets of God. 

[VoidVortex]

On 12/29/2022 at 7:18 PM, kadhim said:

But beyond that, the idea that Jews and Christians rewrote texts after they were written isn’t actually very visible at all in the Quran.

to be fair, its not necessary the method of distortion be mentioned in the Quran. We wouldn't even need to use hadith to study if the Bible contents changed. It would surely be sufficient to use methods that historians use when dealing with historical texts to identify whether the Bible changed over the centuries, as in the actual textual content.

Asserting tahrif with regards to the Bible would not require Islamic evidence. 

[Allah Seeker]

On 12/28/2022 at 5:55 PM, Mark.E said:

If the prophets and messengers are infallible, then how come so many of them sinned, or at least let God down? The big examples I know of are Adam and the apple, and King Solomon erecting pagan temples.

There are Muslims who believe that no creature is infallible. Among 'scholars' especially with shia, they are a tiny little minority. Unless I'm the only shia with that view? And I'm not a scholar with degree from a recognized institution. I don't know. Has anybody here heard of a shia other than me who believes that all prophets made mistakes like every other human? 

[kadhim]

12 hours ago, Mark.E said:

Interesting. Then the specific five books of the Torah are considered pure, while the rest of the Old Testament, including the Book of Kings that accuses Solomon of idolatry, is up for debate in Islam.

I wouldn’t necessarily put it like that. I think it’s just not a subject we were really meant to get into as Muslims. I take the message of the Islamic texts as more, “These are the books the Jews and Christians consider authoritative, so they should judge by what they have in these books. As Muslims, you have the Quran, and you should take guidance from that.

 

12 hours ago, Mark.E said:

Very enlightening, thank you. If I understand correctly, Islam claims that all humans are capable of "missing the mark" at times, but distinguishes between 1. honest incidental mistakes where believers "trip and fall" because of Shaytan, and 2. willful, outright sin? I did once hear a claim that the Prophet, once in his life, missed the morning prayer with his battle-exhausted army, but it was from one of those billion-subscriber Sunni channels on Youtube like MercifulServant. I am opening up to this concept, but again, with my very surface-level knowledge, it seems to run up against ismah and the belief that the Ahl-ul Bayt is "purified": if they are pure, then surely the Shaytan should have *zero* influence over them.

There’s no real one “Islam says” answer to this question. Most Islamic scholars over the years have leaned toward some degree of protection from sin for prophets and messengers, based on philosophical arguments of what characteristics someone needs to do the job. But what the precise boundaries of that are and how far it goes, it’s a matter of some disagreement. 

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

It is prudent to have some basic understanding of the function / job .

Fallible is contradictory to the stated purpose.

Obedience to the fallible will be injustice or there is No havean or hell / No day of judgement. If there is no reward or punishment no heaven or hell. leads to "ALL" is permissible. Basically, No Religion. If you can't defeat from outside. Become and insider and destroy with cleave arguments and the naive will buy it. 

 “Even as We have sent to you an Apostle from among yourselves who recites to you Our communications, and purifies you and teaches you the book and the wisdom, and teaches you that which you did not know.” (2:151)

“Certainly Allah conferred a benefit upon the believers when He raised an Apostle from among themselves, reciting to them His communications, and purifying them and teaching them the book and wisdom, surely before that they are in manifest error.”(3:164)