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Girls being forced to dress modestly in their own homes

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Salam alaikum,

I thought I'd discuss this topic as I am searching for any Islamic evidence as to whether or not young girls should be wearing modestly in front of their own fathers and brothers, because never have I heard that this is obligatory. I have always thought that this was a cultural thing instead.

The topic itself just irks me. My personal take on this is that its nothing but sexualisation, and I do not care who comes here and tells me that its not. I have seen girls as young as 5 or 6 literally being forced to wear long dresses that must go past the knees in front of their male family members, out of "respect". Seriously? Respect what? They are literally young girls. It makes absolutely no sense and it even gives off such a weird vibe that their fathers and brothers are perverted. 

The parents go mad if the daughter wants to wear pants or show a bit of skin, and coerce her to only wear long clothes. She's literally a child.

Then the parents make the excuse that if the child doesn't learn to wear long at a young age, then it will be hard to convince her to dress modestly and practice hijab at a later age. That's not true. If a daughter from a young age watches her own mother wear tighter or shorter clothes at home and dresses modestly when leaving the house, she will understand the difference between the two. Its not difficult for a child to understand, its all about how the mother teaches the child about modesty and how it should be practiced. 

Our fathers and brothers are not strangers. This is the kind of mentality that affects our relationship with them. And if they're the type to check out their daughters/sisters and are attracted to them, then...yikes. 

Is there seriously a sharia on this, by Sayyid sistani for instance, that talks about this? 

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On 12/5/2022 at 2:53 PM, 3wliya_maryam said:

Salam alaikum,

I thought I'd discuss this topic as I am searching for any Islamic evidence as to whether or not young girls should be wearing modestly in front of their own fathers and brothers, because never have I heard that this is obligatory. I have always thought that this was a cultural thing instead.

The topic itself just irks me. My personal take on this is that its nothing but sexualisation, and I do not care who comes here and tells me that its not. I have seen girls as young as 5 or 6 literally being forced to wear long dresses that must go past the knees in front of their male family members, out of "respect". Seriously? Respect what? They are literally young girls. It makes absolutely no sense and it even gives off such a weird vibe that their fathers and brothers are perverted. 

The parents go mad if the daughter wants to wear pants or show a bit of skin, and coerce her to only wear long clothes. She's literally a child.

Then the parents make the excuse that if the child doesn't learn to wear long at a young age, then it will be hard to convince her to dress modestly and practice hijab at a later age. That's not true. If a daughter from a young age watches her own mother wear tighter or shorter clothes at home and dresses modestly when leaving the house, she will understand the difference between the two. Its not difficult for a child to understand, its all about how the mother teaches the child about modesty and how it should be practiced. 

Our fathers and brothers are not strangers. This is the kind of mentality that affects our relationship with them. And if they're the type to check out their daughters/sisters and are attracted to them, then...yikes. 

Is there seriously a sharia on this, by Sayyid sistani for instance, that talks about this? 

As far as i know (correct me if I am wrong)

Dressing modestly is for Non Mehrams but not for Parents

Like logically you grew up Infront of them and they are your Parents (I don't know what will be the ruling in case of a Step Father)

But as far as Parents are a concern 

A women can dress as she wants in front of them and brothers but not in Public or Non Mehrams

And yes seems more of a cultural stuff that dress Modestly in front of parents

More of some Hindu Indian stuff

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Most aspects of modesty for women are cultural. 

It is all an outdated and irrational concept. The fact that muslims abide by it truly means most muslims lack critical thinking and just follow the majority blindly 

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On 12/6/2022 at 1:53 AM, 3wliya_maryam said:

Salam alaikum,

I thought I'd discuss this topic as I am searching for any Islamic evidence as to whether or not young girls should be wearing modestly in front of their own fathers and brothers, because never have I heard that this is obligatory. I have always thought that this was a cultural thing instead.

The topic itself just irks me. My personal take on this is that its nothing but sexualisation, and I do not care who comes here and tells me that its not. I have seen girls as young as 5 or 6 literally being forced to wear long dresses that must go past the knees in front of their male family members, out of "respect". Seriously? Respect what? They are literally young girls. It makes absolutely no sense and it even gives off such a weird vibe that their fathers and brothers are perverted. 

The parents go mad if the daughter wants to wear pants or show a bit of skin, and coerce her to only wear long clothes. She's literally a child.

Then the parents make the excuse that if the child doesn't learn to wear long at a young age, then it will be hard to convince her to dress modestly and practice hijab at a later age. That's not true. If a daughter from a young age watches her own mother wear tighter or shorter clothes at home and dresses modestly when leaving the house, she will understand the difference between the two. Its not difficult for a child to understand, its all about how the mother teaches the child about modesty and how it should be practiced. 

Our fathers and brothers are not strangers. This is the kind of mentality that affects our relationship with them. And if they're the type to check out their daughters/sisters and are attracted to them, then...yikes. 

Is there seriously a sharia on this, by Sayyid sistani for instance, that talks about this? 

I read somewhere that once a little girl was introduced to one of our Imam probably it was Imam Reza (عليه السلام) when she was introduced, Imam (عليه السلام) asked her age and it was told that she is 7 years old. Imam (عليه السلام) asked his father to take her to home and teach her to do hijab. Although at little age, children should be made to wear dresses that make easy for them but when they get of sound mind, they must be taught to do proper dressing there is no wrong in it. 

As far adult males and females are concerned, It is their primary duty to protect their private parts in all conditions. Although females are exempted from doing hijab before their mahrams yet this does not exclude them to dress properly before their mahrams and show their skins because few days before I read a hadith of Prophet (PBUHHP) in which he (PBUHHP) said that thighs are included in private parts and that could also extend to showing arms before mahrams because what we know from fiqh is that proper dressing includes shirts that do not show arms above elbow. 

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8 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

As far adult males and females are concerned, It is their primary duty to protect their private parts in all conditions. Although females are exempted from doing hijab before their mahrams yet this does not exclude them to dress properly before their mahrams and show their skins because few days before I read a hadith of Prophet (PBUHHP) in which he (PBUHHP) said that thighs are included in private parts and that could also extend to showing arms before mahrams because what we know from fiqh is that proper dressing includes shirts that do not show arms above elbow. 

the basic fiqh of this is:


Ruling 2455. A man and a woman who are maḥram to each other can look at each other’s entire body, except the private parts, if they do not have the intention of deriving pleasure and there is no fear of committing a sin.]

-Sayyed Sistani

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On 12/9/2022 at 5:05 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

I read somewhere that once a little girl was introduced to one of our Imam probably it was Imam Reza (عليه السلام) when she was introduced, Imam (عليه السلام) asked her age and it was told that she is 7 years old. Imam (عليه السلام) asked his father to take her to home and teach her to do hijab. Although at little age, children should be made to wear dresses that make easy for them but when they get of sound mind, they must be taught to do proper dressing there is no wrong in it. 

As far adult males and females are concerned, It is their primary duty to protect their private parts in all conditions. Although females are exempted from doing hijab before their mahrams yet this does not exclude them to dress properly before their mahrams and show their skins because few days before I read a hadith of Prophet (PBUHHP) in which he (PBUHHP) said that thighs are included in private parts and that could also extend to showing arms before mahrams because what we know from fiqh is that proper dressing includes shirts that do not show arms above elbow. 

Salam alaikum,

I don't know the authenticity of the hadiths you've mentioned, but what I'm referring to is wearing normal clothes such as t-shirts and pants. Most girls in strict cultural households are only told to wear dresses from a young age, and I believe its unnecessary and just sexualisation. No one's saying go and wear a bikini and walk around the house in front of your father and brothers. Even short dresses or short pants and t shirts should be permissible. Why is it that only boys can go shirtless around the house and wear short shorts above the knees?

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I don't understand why you use words like force, coerce, etc. These words transfer negative mindset of the writer to the readers.

Regarding your topic, it is a good thing to cover body in front of male family members. Girls should have their own room to wear whatever they want and male family members should knock the door first. In family gathering long t-shirts or shirts and long pants are ok but tight or short pants and shirts should be avoided. Talk to an scholar and they provide you with more details.

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11 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

the basic fiqh of this is:


Ruling 2455. A man and a woman who are maḥram to each other can look at each other’s entire body, except the private parts, if they do not have the intention of deriving pleasure and there is no fear of committing a sin.]

-Sayyed Sistani

One can ask to what extent the definition of private parts applies because in one Hadith prophet (PBUHHP) said thighs are part of a private parts the question would be whether arms are also part of private parts or not. This can also be defined by code of dressing in Islam which was done by Prophet (PBUHHP) and Ahlebait (عليه السلام). They did not uncovered any other part of body except to the extent of elbows for Wudu. The normal dressing they used in their homes covered entire bodies and this is what taught in our Madrassas.

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On 12/9/2022 at 1:57 PM, 3wliya_maryam said:

Salam alaikum,

I don't know the authenticity of the hadiths you've mentioned, but what I'm referring to is wearing normal clothes such as t-shirts and pants. Most girls in strict cultural households are only told to wear dresses from a young age, and I believe its unnecessary and just sexualisation. No one's saying go and wear a bikini and walk around the house in front of your father and brothers. Even short dresses or short pants and t shirts should be permissible. Why is it that only boys can go shirtless around the house and wear short shorts above the knees?

The matter with the dressing is that it helps in building up one's moral values. If one does not dress decently at home, she will also build up habit of not dress properly outside then because of this dressing people will fall in sins and may even go on sexually harrasing. Then she may complain about it but it's main cause is her own decisions. A male is also forbidden to show his body and walk in shorts as this was not done by our infallible personalities or ordered by them. 

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49 minutes ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

may even go on sexually harrasing. Then she may complain about it but it's main cause is her own decisions.

you know women who wear burka and niqabs also get harassed? It’s never a woman’s decision to be harassed, it’s the decision of the man harassing her

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3 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:
15 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

 

One can ask to what extent the definition of private parts applies because in one Hadith prophet (PBUHHP) said thighs are part of a private parts the question would be whether arms are also part of private parts or not. This can also be defined by code of dressing in Islam which was done by Prophet (PBUHHP) and Ahlebait (عليه السلام). They did not uncovered any other part of body except to the extent of elbows for Wudu. The normal dressing they used in their homes covered entire bodies and this is what taught in our Madrassas.

in the context of the fatwa, I assume private parts are what is commonly known as private parts, meaning for example if a male wore only underwear, it would be permissible for a mahram female to look at him. 

We can't take one hadith that we don't know the authenticity of, and even if we did, we wouldn't know how to apply it. Just for pure basic fiqh, its enough to follow the ruling of the marja

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3 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

A male is also forbidden to show his body and walk in shorts as this was not done by our infallible personalities or ordered by them. 

a male is allowed to show all his body except private parts according to the majority of maraja. Its not wajib on a male to cover up but maraja recommend them to do so.

If something was not done by the infallibles, it doesn't make something haram. 

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3 minutes ago, VoidVortex said:

in the context of the fatwa, I assume private parts are what is commonly known as private parts, meaning for example if a male wore only underwear, it would be permissible for a mahram female to look at him. 

We can't take one hadith that we don't know the authenticity of, and even if we did, we wouldn't know how to apply it. Just for pure basic fiqh, its enough to follow the ruling of the marja

So you mean wearing underwear one can walk Infront of mother and sister is fine while what I heard from an scholar is that fatwa establishes the extent of permissibility of a certain act that is to say what is the minimum requirement while ikhlaq extends further than that I hope you understand what I mean to say. The fatwa you provided tells us the minimum degree to the extent of which a mahram is not considered to have sinned just by looking at another mahram's body while ikhlaq demands you more than that. I have never read that Ahlebait (عليه السلام) were our infallible imams were without shirts in their homes.

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12 minutes ago, VoidVortex said:

a male is allowed to show all his body except private parts according to the majority of maraja. Its not wajib on a male to cover up but maraja recommend them to do so.

If something was not done by the infallibles, it doesn't make something haram. 

Well wajib is one thing and ikhlaq is another. Ahlebait (عليه السلام) were sent to taught morals and you should choose the best morals than the lowest degree of permissibility because you always seek to choose best for yourself best entertainment, best food, best education, best job and so on. Also one rule is associated with the ruling of Marjas when the explain degree of permissibility of an act that is if you find that upto certain degree sin cannot be avoided then do more than sticking to minimum level. 

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salams,

I've only tried talking about the fiqh of things. You said X was "forbidden". When something is called forbidden it would be interpreted as haram, that's why I said that at minimum level it wasn't haram as long as the conditions the marja mentioned were followed like there is no fear of committing sin. 

Of course I agree, its probably not the wisest idea to start walking around the house in an underwear. 

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11 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

The matter with the dressing is that it helps in building up one's moral values. If one does not dress decently at home, she will also build up habit of not dress properly outside then because of this dressing people will fall in sins and may even go on sexually harrasing. Then she may complain about it but it's main cause is her own decisions. A male is also forbidden to show his body and walk in shorts as this was not done by our infallible personalities or ordered by them. 

I disagree.

As I mentioned before, she will be able to differentiate between modest clothing outdoors vs indoors. I know girls who wear pants and a shirt that doesn't go past the waist and still observe hijab and practice modesty outdoors.

As always, our demoralizing community will shift the blame onto the women for not dressing up properly and that its a sole reason why they get harassed. Men who have no sharaf or gheera will sexually harass women even if they wear hijab.

 

Edited by 3wliya_maryam
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19 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

salams,

I've only tried talking about the fiqh of things. You said X was "forbidden". When something is called forbidden it would be interpreted as haram, that's why I said that at minimum level it wasn't haram as long as the conditions the marja mentioned were followed like there is no fear of committing sin. 

Of course I agree, its probably not the wisest idea to start walking around the house in an underwear. 

I agree to what you have said about Minimum level. But I also want to repeat what I said, I said that men and women should protect their private parts and in a hadith I read that Prophet (PBUHHP) said that thighs are also part of one's private parts and I said that one should also know what is meant by private parts according to the hadith of Ahlebait (عليه السلام) and according to observations, Ahlebait (عليه السلام) did not uncover any part of body except to the extent of elbows when they would do wudu. 

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14 hours ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

As always, our demoralizing community will shift the blame onto the women for not dressing up properly and that its a sole reason why they get harassed. Men who have no sharaf or gheera will sexually harass women even if they wear hijab.

Well I read that Imam Jafar al Sadiq (عليه السلام) said to one of his companion that a female who does not dress up properly and become source of attraction of men then all sin is upon herself. So, it is really up to oneself whether to follow Ahlebait (عليه السلام) or follow the ignorant culture which has devised its strategy to always blame others and turn blind eye to a cause of sin.

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a different fatwa on this topic at least concerning the minimum level:

Issue No. 2084- A man and woman who are maḥram to each other (e.g., brother and sister), can look at each other’s body to that extent that is usual among the maḥrams, and the obligatory precaution is not to look at other parts.

-Ayatollah Makarem Shirazi

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In general I think it makes sense for both genders, male and female, to dress decently in front of each other despite being mahram.

This doesn't mean full hijab, but personally I wouldn't wear anything above the knees nor would I walk around with a bare upper body. 

Not sure why this would be 'sexualization' (whatever that means) it just seems to be basic decency in front of one's female relatives. 

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I have heard that Zainab (عليه السلام) used to observe hijab (cover her hair) in front of her own father, Ali (عليه السلام). I'm not sure how authentic this is, but I won't be surprised if it is true. 

I think if hijab had just been something which women need to do Infront of non-mehrums only, then there wouldn't have been any hijab while praying Infront of Allah. So there is more to hijab than just covering from non-mehrums. 

Dressing decently at home is a sign of modesty and should be encouraged. By that, I don't mean women must observe full hijab Infront of their mehrums....but wearing loose, long clothing and partially covering hair etc cannot be termed as something cultural or Hindu influence, I believe.... Rather it may be a virtue. 

Edited by Liggel
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On 12/10/2022 at 1:25 PM, Guest guest said:

you know women who wear burka and niqabs also get harassed? It’s never a woman’s decision to be harassed, it’s the decision of the man harassing her

Well being a man, I consider that dressing indecently encourages men to harras a woman as oppose to a woman who wear burka or hijab because a bad man fears that harrasing her would result in other men stand for her chastity.

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On 12/13/2022 at 10:34 PM, Mahdavist said:

Not sure why this would be 'sexualization' (whatever that means) it just seems to be basic decency in front of one's female relatives. 

Then search on google what it means.

So teaching a 5 year old little girl to only wear dresses, to not wear t-shirts and wear modest loose clothing is not sexualisation to you?

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On 12/13/2022 at 10:35 PM, Liggel said:

Dressing decently at home is a sign of modesty and should be encouraged. By that, I don't mean women must observe full hijab Infront of their mehrums....but wearing loose, long clothing and partially covering hair etc cannot be termed as something cultural or Hindu influence, I believe.... Rather it may be a virtue.

No, its cultural. Also keep in mind that every generation is different, and since there is no ruling on a woman dressing modestly around the house just like she does outdoors then, its cultural.

partially covering hair, oh my god

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10 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Well being a man, I consider that dressing indecently encourages men to harras a woman as oppose to a woman who wear burka or hijab because a bad man fears that harrasing her would result in other men stand for her chastity.

Just stop.

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On 12/14/2022 at 2:20 AM, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Well being a man, I consider that dressing indecently encourages men to harras a woman as oppose to a woman who wear burka or hijab because a bad man fears that harrasing her would result in other men stand for her chastity.

Disagree with this. Each person is responsible for their own actions. 

A woman who covers up does it for the sake of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and if she doesn't then her sin is that she disobeyed Allah. Anyone who harasses her is responsible for their own action.

By this twisted logic the covered woman who is harassed will also take the sin of the harasser and the uncovered woman who isn't harassed gets no sin.

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On 12/14/2022 at 12:36 PM, 3wliya_maryam said:

Then search on google what it means.

So teaching a 5 year old little girl to only wear dresses, to not wear t-shirts and wear modest loose clothing is not sexualisation to you?

I think there are two different topics here. One is about children and the second is about how adults should dress at home.  

I don't see the issue with children wearing t-shirts etc although once they get closer to puberty it makes sense to have a transition (this wouldn't be at 5!)

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18 minutes ago, Mahdavist said:

Disagree with this. Each person is responsible for their own actions. 

A woman who covers up does it for the sake of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), and if she doesn't then her sin is that she disobeyed Allah. Anyone who harasses her is responsible for their own action.

By this twisted logic the covered woman who is harassed will also take the sin of the harasser and the uncovered woman who isn't harassed gets no sin.

What I read from the time of the Prophet (PBUHHP) that men used to harras women on roads so the verse of veil was revealed and through this woman were ordered to veil to maintain their chastity and excuse of bad men were extinguished that it's because of women's own actions that they used to be bad towards her and their bad conduct was contained through this etiquette. So don't say that women's indecency has nothing to do with a men's conduct. 

Allah (عزّ وجلّ) never wants from a men or women anything for Himself because He is not in need of creation but for betterment of creation. If you believe that He (عزّ وجلّ) want anything for Himself then your belief in tauheed is not correct. 

Edited by Borntowitnesstruth
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I never knew there was anything immodest about t-shirts. :confused:

Just follow the Islamic guidelines. If you force people to follow extremes like covering up too much at home, which as far as I know has no basis in Islam, it will create resentment and those same people will go to the other extreme as soon as they are given the chance. Of course you should follow the culture of your home and society to some extent and respect your parents, but if you feel stiffled and there is nothing wrong Islamically with it, then wear what you feel comfortable in. 

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wa alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh,

First of all a reminder for all, answering salam is wajib.

(وَذَكِّرْ فَإِنَّ الذِّكْرَىٰ تَنْفَعُ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ) 55 verse, surah 51

I would like to comment in various points

1- forcing children? are you sure that they are getting forced? kids need someone to guide them , parents that's their job but if they are actually forcing , they are not doing their job. kids at that age don't understands what happens around them, why they will decide to wear shorts for example ? also if they decide to not study should we listen to them ?

2- kids(both girls and boys) wearing pants or shirts , it seems ok. In my community it is fine . however kids won't buy their own clothes, that's why parents should make sure to buy them proper clothes.

3- Men and Women are naturally attracted to each other. so of course if women wear an alluring clothes that's will take men attention. Men like to see beauty , women like to be beautiful. however we shouldn't follow our own desires. we must follow what is the best for us which is Islam . we should know how to control ourselves. As saying I am talking about both men and women. 

A small advice, we should not assume that men and women are rivals ( Men vs Women mentality), we should help each other to become better Muslims. 

May Allah bless us and guide us.

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