Refuting Twelverism - No Evidence for the Designation of 12 Imams

[Zaydism]

There is no Naṣṣ for the Twelve before the Occultation: 

After [the death] of al-Imām al-Ṣādiq Jaʿfar b. Muḥammad, upon them be peace, I came across a group from the Khawāṣ (trustees) of the Imāmīya, and their jurists who are unaware after his death of any Naṣṣ for the Twelve whatsoever. 

They were lost, and confused, to the extent that a majority of their jurists went to believing in the Imāma of al-Afṭaḥ ʿAbdullāh b. Jaʿfar. 

Among those who were lost, and confused were: 

1 - Abū Baṣīr
2 - Hishām b. Sālim al-Jawālīqī 
3 - Zurāra b. ʾʿAyun
4 - Muʾmin al-Ṭāq al-Alḥwal, and others. 

This was after Abī ʿAbdullāh al-Ṣādiq, upon him be peace. 

Then, after the [death] of al-Imām Abī al-Ḥasan al-Kāẓim Mūsā b. Jaʿfar, upon them be peace, al-Shaykh al-Ṭūṣī mentions the pillars of the Imāmīya, and grand ones from among their Salaf (predecessors), jurists, and Khawāṣ from among the Imāmīya who don’t know who the Imām is after the Imām. 

Some were doubtful regarding al-Imām ʿAlī b. Mūsā al-Riḍā, upon him be peace, and some held to the position of waqf (halting on the Imāma of al-Kāẓim ع). We find al-Shaykh al-Ṭūṣī saying, and reflect on how the reason from them coming to the belief in the Imāma of al-Imām al-Riḍā is not the Naṣṣ on the Twelve, rather it is miracles. 

al-Ṭūṣī states: 

And that as well is invalidated by what became apparent from the miracles on the hands of al-Riḍā*, upon him be peace, which indicated the soundness of his Imāma, and they are mentioned in the books. 

And by them a group from among those who held to waqf returned, such as:

1 - ʿAbd al-Raḥmān b. al-Ḥajjāj 
2 - Rafāʿa b. Mūsā 
3 - Yūnus b. Yaʿqūb
4 - Jamīl b. Darāj
5 - Ḥamād b. ʿĪsā 

These individuals are among the companions of his father who were doubtful regarding him. Then, they returned. 

Likewise, those who lived in his era, such as: 

6 - Aḥmad b. Muḥammad b. Abī Naṣr
7 - al-Ḥasan b. ʿAlī al-Washāʾ 

And others who held to waqf. So, they held to the binding proof, and adhered to his Imāma, and the Imāma of those who came after him from his sons)). 

• Source: al-Ghaybā lī-al-Ṭūṣī: 71

Commentary: This guides you to knowing that: There is no Naṣṣ for the Twelve during that era - the pre-occultation period - and the greats from among the Salaf of the Imāmīya, and the Khawāṣ of their Imāms are unaware of it, so as to know and establish who the Imām is after their Imāms. 

Then, after knowing this, one also knows that: The claim of Tawātur is invalidated, for the purpose of Tawātur is certainty in knowing. If these notable personages, and Khawāṣ were between a doubtful Wāqifī, and faṭḥī, and they were the heads of the Imāmīya during their era. Then, how is one to reconcile the narration of one generation to another regarding what is Mutawātir. 

Where is this claim from the reality of the Imāmīya during the pre-occultation period, and one has witnessed that al-Ashʿarī, and al-Nawbaḳtī have not mentioned this report in their books regarding The Sayings, and Sects when mentioning the views of those who differ from among their companions, and Salaf during the pre-occultation period. 

Then, after these two conclusions, another conclusion follows, and it is: The extent of that gloomy corpus, and the level of interpolation within the Imāmī turāth (tradition) to the extent that they have fabricated within it for the report of the Twleve within their works hundreds, if not thousands of narrations! 

This is clearly a turāth that cannot be relied on for the sake of knowledge, or reaching the Ahl al-Bayt, upon them be peace. 

Then, from these conclusions, a conclusion follows, and it is: If trust, and assuredness is raised from the report of the Twelve, due to the great fabricating that occurred within the Imāmī turāth - to the extent that they would narrate it [the report of the Twelve] from the Nawāṣib, faṭḥīyya, wāqifīyya, Nāwūsīyya, Zaydīyya, and others - while their own Salaf are among the most unaware of it - as you have seen - so, how can one accept their claims regarding the greats from among the sons of al-Ḥusayn, upon him be peace, and the reports of waṣīya (designation) from on to the other, the reports of the miracles, or whatever else they were exclusive in transmitting. 

The researcher who is not weak ought to reflect for himself, and not be deceived by surface level readings ahead of deep readings which touch the core of the foundation, and alongside it result either in either collapse, or expansion. 

Verily, the matter is that of religion! 

May Allāh make us joyous with you 

~ al-Kāẓim al-Zaydī 

O Allāh bless Muḥammad, and the Ahl al-Bayt of Muḥammad

———
I would also like to add to what the respected Shaykh has mentioned as a further critique to potential Imāmī responses, if one were to say that the Khawāṣ were nonetheless informed after the fact that the Imāms were Imāms. 

Then, one would finally reach a critical, and consistent point within the history and development of the Imāmī tradition - which is that the Imāma was being passed down from one Imām to another as these Khawāṣ were purporting. 

Thus, conceding the point that there is no Naṣṣ for the Twelve whatsoever, and if one wants to point to a solitary Nāṣibī report which is contradictory in its matn (content), has never been used ever in any polemical setting whatsoever in the pre-occultation era, and is also not present in the Zaydī corpus.  Then, in reality, what one has is an appeal to the mere number Twelve, and this is an appeal which is tantamount to innovation in light of the early Imāmī polemicists, not to mention that it is disregarded due to being purely solitary and can consistently be explained as being an Umayyad forgery. 

*Now, if one were to say that the Khawāṣ knew - without needing to be informed by the Imāms that the Imāms were Imāms - then, one would be falling into contradiction once again. For, if they were aware, then why would al-Riḍā be performing miracles? You cannot say that this was also an environment of Taqīyya, the Imām is going above and beyond by not only saying he’s an Imām, but also performing miracles! Therefore, to slander great Imāms like al-Ṣādiq in saying that he would create sects to deceive the Muslims even more is not only contradictory, but also catastrophic, and desperate. 

Then, you have the case of al-Imām Zayd denying that his father al-Imām al-Sajjād claimed to be an Imām. You also have the report of ʿUmar al-Ashraf another righteous son of al-Imām al-Sajjād in an authentic chain in Ṭabaqāt Ibn Saʿd denying that his father claimed to be an Imām when addressing the claims of al-Muʿalā Ibn Khunays, and then you have internal reports as those mentioned already, and the case of the Khawāṣ once again not knowing who the Imām is in a non-taqīyya setting. Interestingly, the premise that there are Imāms designated is not attacked, rather it is specifically the point on al-Sajjād, upon him be peace. 

Furthermore, you have dozens of new Shīʿī sects being birthed after the death of each Imām, even after the death of al-Ḥasan al-ʿAskarī ع. Then, you have the community of the Ahl al-Bayt, and your own Imāms publicly denying this belief. You simply slander the Imāms of the Ahl al-Bayt such as al-Imām ʿAbdullāh b. Ḥasan b. Ḥasan, al-Imām al-Nafs al-Zakīyya, Jaʿfar al-Zakī, Muḥammad b. Jaʿfar al-Ṣādiq, and many others from the righteous among the Ahl al-Bayt (who would have really benefited from this Naṣṣ Taqīyya movement, since they wouldn’t have to have had their blood shed, and whenever they even had any wealth whatsoever they would give it all away, and live ascetically. Therefore, even the history of human psychology is against you). 

Not to mention that this is all in direct contradiction of the Qurʾān, since matters of salvation were always eventually revealed openly. To appeal to the people of the cave, and al-Khidr is strange since we are (a) informed of them nonetheless in scripture, and (b) are not religiously obligated towards anyone, or anything that isn’t explicitly mentioned or referred to in the Glorious Qurʾān (in matters which relate to salvation). Hence, we believe in the explicit Imāma of Amīr al-Muʾminīn, his sons, and the progeny of the Prophet. However, we don’t do takfīr on anyone who goes against this (correct position) as this is an extension of the Aṣl which is Imāma - that no Muslim would deny, otherwise how would one rule by the Book, and the Sunnah? - this brings us to the occultation which no logical justification whatsoever can be made for it (and I say that with as much humility, and compassion that can be expressed). It is impossible to defend the occultation. 

And - unfortunately - one can keep going, and this isn’t scratching the surface. In reality, the individual sees the pure hatred, and enmity the family of the Prophet received as soon as the Prophet ﷺ departed; his rightful heir, and vicegerent was sidelined, his progeny was butchered, and the hatred to this day persists. In face of this, one would find that it is reasonable to believe in the claims of some individuals from the street - with a wide range of agendas - although, I find it astonishing how one can really conceive of all these contradictions and still believe in this strange pseudo-reality (that i stress is in pure contrast to the Qurʾān, and the example of the Prophet ﷺ). 

The Zaydī tradition is the tradition of the Ahl al-Bayt for he who seeks to hold onto the Prophet, and his progeny. It is a tradition that does not differentiate between the greats of the Ahl al-Bayt, and presents an epistemology that is at its very core decisive, and fruit-bearing. 

~ Muḥammad al-Sharīfī

‎اللهم صل وسلم وبارك على سيدنا محمد وعلى آله الطيبين الطاهرين
 

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

fyi:

"Some Zaidiyyah say: Traditions that specify the number of Imams to be twelve have been fabricated by the Imamiyah sect sometime ago...."

https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/introduction#first-objection-zaidiyyah-sect

Kamaaluddin by Shaykh Saduq

[Zaydism]

3 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

fyi:

"Some Zaidiyyah say: Traditions that specify the number of Imams to be twelve have been fabricated by the Imamiyah sect sometime ago...."

https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/introduction#first-objection-zaidiyyah-sect

Kamaaluddin by Shaykh Saduq

Quote

 

And among the arguments that falsify the Zaidiyyah claim is that they are under the impression that Imam Ja’far Sadiq ((عليه السلام).) issued Nass in favor of Ismail and when he (Ismail) was alive, indicated that he is Imam. Later on Ismail passed away during the lifetime of his father. So they said: The Almighty Allah did not effect change (Bada) in anything like He did regarding my son, Ismail. So if the tradition of twelve Imams had been correct, at least Ja’far bin Muhammad must have been aware of it, and he would have told his selected followers so that neither they err nor other people commit such a blunder.

In reply we asked them: On what basis do you say that Ja’far bin Muhammad had issued Nass on the Imamate of Ismail? What type of a report is it, who has narrated it and who has accepted it? They had no replies to offer. It was only a story concocted by those who believe in the Imamate of Ismail. It has no basis, because the traditions regarding the Twelve Imams are narrated by the Shias as well as the Sunnis from the Imams and the Prophet.

 

The writer has mixed the Zaydis with Ismailis presuming that the view he is attacking is the Zaydi view, whereas it is the Ismaili view. Moreover, the criticism remains untouched. 

The Zaydis only believe in Nass for 3 particular Imams, Imam Ali, Imam Hasan, and Imam Husayn. The only legislative authority is the Quran, and the Prophet. 

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

10 hours ago, Zaidism said:

There is no Naṣṣ for the Twelve before the Occultation: 

After [the death] of al-Imām al-Ṣādiq Jaʿfar b. Muḥammad, upon them be peace, I came across a group from the Khawāṣ (trustees) of the Imāmīya, and their jurists who are unaware after his death of any Naṣṣ for the Twelve whatsoever. 

They were lost, and confused, to the extent that a majority of their jurists went to believing in the Imāma of al-Afṭaḥ ʿAbdullāh b. Jaʿfar. 

 

Fourth objection of Zaidiyyah sect

Zaidiyyah say: If the tradition regarding the number of Imams to be twelve had been correct, people would not have doubted in the successorship of Imam Ja’far Sadiq ((عليه السلام).).....

https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/introduction#fourth-objection-zaidiyyah-sect

https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/introduction#fifth-objection-zaidiyyah-sect

( Kindly read all the objections - 1 to 8 )-  if you were to focus on The points raised, most have been are covered. 

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

32 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

 

The Zaydis only believe in Nass for 3 particular Imams, Imam Ali, Imam Hasan, and Imam Husayn. The only legislative authority is the Quran, and the Prophet. 

Do you believe in Al-Imam Al Mahdi(عليه السلام) ? 

if Yes-

As per your belief, Three Representatives appoint by Allah(عزّ وجلّ) and the rest you will choose and the last is appointed by Allah(عزّ وجلّ) and announced by Muhammad al-Mustafa ( Peace be upon him and his pure progeny). 

[Cool]

Salam!!

The way you bring your so called refutations on monthly basis, makes me laugh. 

I am avoiding repetitions as we have punctured all the points you have raised here, on your other thread.  

Here you started with "no evidence for the designation if 12 Imams". So I am quoting the evidences from different sources, other than what we have in our books. Last time I showed you the references from your books, now lets see the nass from Sunni books:

1.

لو لم يبق من الدنيا الا يوم واحد لطوّل الله ذلك اليوم حتى يخرج رجل من ولدي يواطىء اسمه اسمي وكنيته كنيتي يملأ الارض قسطاً وعدلاً كما ملئت ظلماً وجوراً .

(الرازي ـ المنقذ 2: 401 ـ 402)

2. 

عن مسروق قال: (بينا نحن عند عبد الله بن مسعود اذ دخل علينا شاب وقال: هل عهد اليكم نبيكم كم يكون من بعده خليفة؟ قال: انك لحدث السن، وان هذا ما سألني احد عنه، نعم عهد الينا نبينا ان يكون بعده اثني عشر خليفة عدد نقباء بني اسرائيل.

3.

روى عن ابن عباس أنّه قال رسول الله: (خلفائي واوصيائي وحجج الله على الخلق بعدي اثني عشر اولهم اخي واخرهم ولدي، قيل يا رسول الله من اخوك؟ قال: عليّ بن ابي طالب، قيل: من ولدك؟ قال: المهدي الذي يملأ الارض قسطاً وعدلاً...،

4.

وقال ص للحسين: (يا حسين يخرج من صلبك تسعة من الائمة منهم مهدي هذه الامة...)

The tawatur in these sort of reports all over the Islamic history & literature is sufficient evidence to refute anyone who deny the Imamate of 12 Imams. 

Isn't it surprising that you become Imam-less for a certain period of time i.e., after the martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) while the existence of Imam or Ulil Amr is must according to Quran. 

((من مات وليس له إمامٌ مات ميتةً جاهليةً إذا كان الإمام عدلا برا تقيا))

[مسند الإمَام زيد بن عَلي

سَمِعْتُ رَسولَ اللهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عليه وَسَلَّمَ يقولُ: مَن خَلَعَ يَدًا مِن طَاعَةٍ، لَقِيَ اللَّهَ يَومَ القِيَامَةِ لا حُجَّةَ له، وَمَن مَاتَ وَليسَ في عُنُقِهِ بَيْعَةٌ، مَاتَ مِيتَةً جَاهِلِيَّةً.

الراوي : عبدالله بن عمر | المحدث : مسلم | المصدر : صحيح مسلم

 

Edited November 30, 2022 by Cool

[Ashvazdanghe]

Salam same content with different title from @Zaidism

 

[Zaydism]

9 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

Do you believe in Al-Imam Al Mahdi(عليه السلام) ? 

if Yes-

As per your belief, Three Representatives appoint by Allah(عزّ وجلّ) and the rest you will choose and the last is appointed by Allah(عزّ وجلّ) and announced by Muhammad al-Mustafa ( Peace be upon him and his pure progeny). 

The Mahdī will be born in the end times, and he will naturally rise to power. He isn’t mentioned by name like Imām ʿAlī, al-Ḥasan, or al-Ḥusayn. Moreover, one isn’t obligated to take their religious knowledge from him, because he’s not born clearly, and also we’re not obligated to know him. 

[Zaydism]

9 hours ago, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

Fourth objection of Zaidiyyah sect

Zaidiyyah say: If the tradition regarding the number of Imams to be twelve had been correct, people would not have doubted in the successorship of Imam Ja’far Sadiq ((عليه السلام).).....

https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/introduction#fourth-objection-zaidiyyah-sect

https://www.al-islam.org/kamaaluddin-wa-tamaamun-nima-vol-1-shaykh-saduq/introduction#fifth-objection-zaidiyyah-sect

( Kindly read all the objections - 1 to 8 )-  if you were to focus on The points raised, most have been are covered. 

I respond to this in depth within the thread that @Ashvazdanghe links 

[Guest Psychological Warfare]

On 11/30/2022 at 8:16 AM, Zaidism said:

The Mahdī will be born in the end times, and he will naturally rise to power. He isn’t mentioned by name like Imām ʿAlī, al-Ḥasan, or al-Ḥusayn. Moreover, one isn’t obligated to take their religious knowledge from him, because he’s not born clearly, and also we’re not obligated to know him. 

The question of birth, nor exact name is the issue here in this Context.

The Fact is that the Muslims are aware that a Man will come? where did you get this information? 

Not something made up, it came from the Source. (Muhammad Al-Mustafa (peace be upon him and his pure Progeny). 

So, the Reality is that some Muslims do not believe in an immediate Successor and some like you have modified belief that there were immediate successors whoever we will choose the middle ones and someone will come, the Last Successor who has been mentioned by the Source. You will not choose him, nor elect  him nor do a shura. 

He is Allah(عزّ وجلّ) representative, Appointed by Allah(عزّ وجلّ) , announced by Muhammad Al-Mustafa (peace be upon him and his pure Progeny).  

This fact renders your arguments invalid. You and others have a conceptually flawed belief. 

You and others can read the link provided to determine if your technical points have any weight. or there just a distraction.

[Zaydism]

On 11/30/2022 at 9:32 AM, Guest Psychological Warfare said:

The Fact is that the Muslims are aware that a Man will come? where did you get this information? 

With all due respect, I find your arguments to not only be explicitly non-sequitur, they clearly seem to be based on a misunderstanding of the theological underpinnings that come from subscribing to the Twelver view regarding Imama. As I have mentioned, the same arguments your predecessors used to establish this belief are the same arguments which negate that belief! Namely, there is a need for a perfect Imam to guide, establish the Hudud, preserve the teachings, etc. All these arguments, and others are explicit defeaters of the Twelver view on Imama. So, what remains is Nass, and as I have highlighted in my response to Ammar Muslim, and him essentially conceding the point there is no Nass. So, what remains is taqiyya, and as I highlighted in my response it results in a self-imploding narrative. 

[Muslim2010]

The detailed refutation of false and baseless claims of Zaidism has been made frequently at SC by knowledgeable members.

The details of refutation with the valid evidences can be seen at the posts as mentioned in the following thread:

wasalam

Edited December 10, 2022 by Muslim2010

[Guest Abd]

We should refute 12 imams and follow the saudi wahabi family and princes

[Aabiss_Shakarii]

Is there any Nas according to which "Zaidis follow Hanafi fiqh"?

[Zaydism]

On 12/18/2022 at 3:04 AM, Guest Abd said:

We should refute 12 imams and follow the saudi wahabi family and princes

Or, we could follow the Ahl al-Bayt  

On 1/3/2023 at 3:36 PM, Aabiss_Shakarii said:

Is there any Nas according to which "Zaidis follow Hanafi fiqh"?

Zaydis follow the fiqh of the Ahl al-Bayt exclusively, this can be explicitly gleaned by viewing the fiqh of al-Imam al-Qasim, the Ahkam of al-Imam al-Hadi, the Musnad of al-Imam Zayd, al-Kafi fi fiqh al-Zaydiyya, Amali al-Imam Ahmad b. Isa b. Zayd, etc.

Similarities in fiqh ≠ following that fiqh, otherwise your own argument backfires against you.  

[Ashvazdanghe]

7 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Musnad of al-Imam Zayd

 

 

7 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Similarities in fiqh ≠ following that fiqh

Salam Musnad al-Imam Zayd is totally about following Hanafism of Abuhanifa with a grain salt of Shia Islam .

7 hours ago, Zaidism said:

al-Kafi fi fiqh al-Zaydiyya, Amali al-Imam Ahmad b. Isa b. Zayd

These are semi-plagiarism from title of Twelver books which because Book of Kafi from Kafi (رضي الله عنه) & Amali of seikh saduq have been popular so these books with same title have been forged.

Quote

Sheikh Mohammad Bakhit Mati'i, a Hanafi Egyptian, wrote in his recitation of the book: "This book agrees with the religion of Imam Abu Hanifa in most of the rulings."

 شیخ محمد بخیت مطیعی 

@Arminmo

Quote

In the book شرح قاضى شرف الدين by حسين بن احمد سياغى يمنى (متوفى 1221ه) which is one of the  detailed narrations on the book on top,  he has argued to prove its contents in an acceptable manner in Sunni jurisprudence, that is, he has cited the writings and endowments of the Companions, as well as analogy and the like.

 

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5. There is not a single hadith of the Musnad, that was narrated by any of the sons of Imam Zayd, corraborating the narrations of Abu Khalid.

 

Quote

1. the book known as Musnad Zayd has been narrated by only one author, who is Abu Khalid al-Wasiti.

 

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There is a general silence about Abu Khalid's religion in Sunni rijali sources, but in Imami rijali-hadith sources sometimes it is mentioned briefly that Abu Khalid is a Zaidi [20] and sometimes he is carelessly referred to as a common man (Sunni) that has a tendency towards Ahl al-Bayt (عليه السلام) [21] or a Batri Zaidi [22].

 

Quote

Among the Imamiss, Ibn Fadal al-Kufi considered him trustworthy, [34] and many hadiths have been narrated through him in the four books of the Imamia; anyway Imami Rijal researches in middle era just based on his faith , put him among  weak people .