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i thought Shifa was allowed but a salafi told me this verse

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I know many of you might think im ignorant, but im a convert who does not know the holyquran well. Im asking this because when i told you when i said ya hussain because at ashura i felt something and thought it was shifa and went home and said ya hussain, but any way i wanted someone to explain this verse, for i was ignorant and absent minded, does it disprove shifa? i think i just messed up!!!

@cool

"Do not call onto any beings other than Allah. These are capable of neither benefiti nor harm. To do so is therefore guilty of wrongdoing. When Allah inverts you with an affliction, none can remove it except Him." [Al-Qur'an 10:106-107]

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Salams.

You’ll see a lot of people, scholars included, put out rational arguments that it’s OK as long as certain conditions are met in terms of how you think about it, to avoid the notion that the imams have some sort of power to do anything for you independently. 

These arguments are not bad as far as the question of “is it/is it not shirk?”

From a standpoint of, should one do this/is there any benefit to this/is there any basis to this sort of practice, I will point out that as far as I am aware there is no evidence of Muhammad or his family ever practicing or teaching such a thing. 

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1 hour ago, kadhim said:

Salams.

You’ll see a lot of people, scholars included, put out rational arguments that it’s OK as long as certain conditions are met in terms of how you think about it, to avoid the notion that the imams have some sort of power to do anything for you independently. 

These arguments are not bad as far as the question of “is it/is it not shirk?”

From a standpoint of, should one do this/is there any benefit to this/is there any basis to this sort of practice, I will point out that as far as I am aware there is no evidence of Muhammad or his family ever practicing or teaching such a thing. 

so your saying shifa and tasswaul was in bida innovation that came later in islamic history?

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32 minutes ago, Lion of Shia said:

so your saying shifa and tasswaul was in bida innovation that came later in islamic history?

Personally, I don’t like this Salafi way of expressing things. 

I’m just saying as far as I can tell — there don’t seem to be solid roots for it. 

I’m not going to say it’s wrong if the right intentions are there. But I don’t see the point of it and don’t see any positive reason to do it. 

The answer to the Salafis is that the way of doing this that the scholars of our school say is Ok can’t really be called a bad thing. At worst it’s useless. And moreover it’s not a core, essential practice in our school either. So you can like it or dislike it personally but it’s not a valid argument against the Shia school of thought. 

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9 minutes ago, kadhim said:

@Mahdavist You have anything to add here? Stuff like this at least we tend to be on similar frequencies. 

There have obviously been many (repetitive) topics on this on the forum. My humble position is that the best thing we can do is to follow what the Quran and the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) have clearly mentioned, rather than to retrofit modern day practices into Islam through gymnastic-style arguments.

The definition of tawassul has been given by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) as follows,  I don't see any good reason to abandon this and do things differently:

The best means by which seekers of nearness to Allah, the Glorified, the Exalted, seek nearness, is the belief in Him and His Prophet, fighting in His cause, for it is the high pinnacle of Islam, and (to believe) in the kalimatu'l-'ikhlas (the expression of Divine purification) for it is just nature and the establishment of prayer for it is (the basis of) community, payment of zakat (Islamic tax) for it is a compulsory obligation, fasting for the month of Ramadan for it is the shield against chastisement, the performance of hajj of the House of Allah (i. e . Ka’bah) and its ‘umrah (other than annual visit) for these two acts banish poverty and wash away sins, regard for kinship for it increases wealth and length of life, to giving alms secretly for it covers shortcomings, giving alms openly for it protects against a bad death and extending benefits (to people) for it saves from positions of disgrace.
 
(The sermon continues further, the full text in English and Arabic can be found here )
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Assalaamun Alaykum,

Taking a single verse and literally in every aspect isn't the right way to prove a point of course, we are being warned against polytheism in the verse prior, so this helps with context.

[10.105] And that you should keep your course towards the religion uprightly; and you should not be of the polytheists.

The best advice I would give is to read from a true Scholar who has answered this amazingly well, Shaykh Murtadha Mutahari (a.r) has covered this in this great book.

Man And Universe | Al-Islam.org

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Salam alaikom

The verse quoted is in regards to the polytheists who take their idols as intercessors. It is not an absolute verse. This can be told by tafseer al-Quran bil-Quran (interpretation of the Quran by the Quran). 

We read in Ayat al-Kursi:

مَنْ ذَا الَّذِي يَشْفَعُ عِنْدَهُ إِلَّا بِإِذْنِهِ

Who is it that may intercede with Him except with His permission? [2:55]

So there will be intercessors on the Day of Judgement, if Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wills so, which He does:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَابْتَغُوا إِلَيْهِ الْوَسِيلَةَ

O you who have faith! Be wary of Allah, and seek the means of recourse to Him... [5:35]

When asked about this verse, our Imams (A) have said that "al-waseela" / "the means of recourse" means the Ahlulbayt (A). 

Quote

 

في سورة المائدة: * (يا أيها الذين آمنوا اتقوا الله وابتغوا إليه الوسيلة) * قال القمي في تفسيره: تقربوا إليه بالإمام. وفي تفسير البرهان عن ابن شهرآشوب قال:
قال مولانا أمير المؤمنين (عليه السلام) في قوله تعالى: * (وابتغوا إليه الوسيلة) *: أنا وسيلته.

In Surah al-Ma'diah [it is written]: "O you who have faith! Be wary of Allah, and seek the means of recourse to Him..." Al-Qommi said in his tafseer: "Become close to Him with the Imam." And in Tafseer al-Burhan, from Ibn Shahrashoub who says: "Our master Ameer al-Momineen (عليه السلام) says about the words of the High: "...and seek the means of recourse to Him..." I am the means of recourse (al-waseela)."

 

(Source: Mustadrak Safeenat al-Bihar, Vol. 10, P. 301)

This narration (or similar narrations) can be found in many more books.

So the Quran isn't against shifa3a (intercession) altogether. Rather, it says that the idols will not grant intercession to the idol-worshippers, but that the Ahlulbayt (A) will grant intercession to the believers by His permission. 

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) guide us all.

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fyi- 

"Tawassul to the beloved ones of Allah is a matter which is in vogue amongst the Muslims of the world and from the day the Islamic Shari’ah was conveyed through the Holy Prophet (S) its legality was also declared by the way of Islamic traditions.

It was only in the 8th century A.H. that tawassul was rejected by Ibn Taymiyyah and two centuries later Muhammad ibn ’Abd Al-Wahhab intensified this objection. Tawassul was introduced to be unlawful and heresy and occasionally was labelled as worshipping the awliya’ and it is needless to mention that worshipping other than God amounts to polytheism and is forbidden........"

https://www.al-islam.org/wahhabism-2nd-edition-revised-edited-and-annotated-jafar-subhani/7-tawassul-recourse-awliya-allah

Wahhabism by Jafar Subhani

 

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Lion of Shia, I have had similar doubts from reading the English translation of the Quran.  It often seems like the English is as clear as can be to mean a particular thing but there are frequently subtleties in Arabic which can't be easily translated.

Firstly, when you said Ya Hussain were you asking Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) for help as an independent entity who can help you without regard to Allah, or were you saying Ya Hussain because you know he is Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))'s perfect representative and may be able to ask Allah for help on your behalf due to your love for Allah and him?

Asking for help from someone or something and considering it actually able to help independent of Allah is definitely and absolutely wrong.  I do not believe that is what you did.

People have already given good explanations in this thread. Just to add, the Quran is perfect and does not contradict itself.  The context of this being with regards to polytheists seeking help from their idols is sufficient as an explanation in my opinion but here is a brief addition of what I have also come across.

In Arabic grammar there is a distinction between general negations and absolute negations. I'm not in a position to be able to explain this completely clearly but I came a across a good explanation of it in English in a book called "Divine Speech" by Nouman Ali Khan on page 84.

My understanding is that whenever asking for intercession (shafa'ah) or healing (shifa) are negated in the Quran it is a general negation such as when a teacher says no talking to a class but the teacher and students know they can talk in exceptions such as to ask to go to the bathroom or ask for a pen or a question etc.  There are also absolute negations in the Quran for things like La ilaha illallah (there is (absolutely) no deity worthy of worship other than Allah) or The is (absolutely) no doubt in it (the Quran) "la rayba fihi".  This is evident in the grammatical form and endings used in the words in Arabic.

I am not knowledgeable enough to analyse this particular verse grammatically but suspect there may be a similar thing happening here. There is definitely in other verses where intercession is negated.

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On 11/20/2022 at 7:02 AM, Lion of Shia said:

I know many of you might think im ignorant, but im a convert who does not know the holyquran well. Im asking this because when i told you when i said ya hussain because at ashura i felt something and thought it was shifa and went home and said ya hussain, but any way i wanted someone to explain this verse, for i was ignorant and absent minded, does it disprove shifa? i think i just messed up!!!

@cool

"Do not call onto any beings other than Allah. These are capable of neither benefiti nor harm. To do so is therefore guilty of wrongdoing. When Allah inverts you with an affliction, none can remove it except Him." [Al-Qur'an 10:106-107]

The actual translation does not include "being". Here is the real translation "[Shakir 10:106] And do not call besides Allah on that which can neither benefit you nor harm you, for if you do then surely you will in that case be of the unjust."

There are also verses in Quran where in Allah (عزّ وجلّ) tells us to request prophets to pray for our forgiveness. I have been reading your posts for quite a long time, I thought you would know these answers as a Shia, these are basic questions which everyone knows while growing up.

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5 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

There are also verses in Quran where in Allah (عزّ وجلّ) tells us to request prophets to pray for our forgiveness. I have been reading your posts for quite a long time, I thought you would know these answers as a Shia, these are basic questions which everyone knows while growing up.

Unfortunately a lot of the 'basic things' that people were told growing up are not necessarily supported by the authentic teachings of our Imams which is to supplicate to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only. 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) writes to his son Imam Hassan (عليه السلام)

In all affairs resign yourself to Allah, because you will thus be resigning yourself to a secure shelter and a strong protector. You should ask only from your Lord because in His hand is all the giving and depriving.

Nahjul Balagha Letter 31

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10 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

Unfortunately a lot of the 'basic things' that people were told growing up are not necessarily supported by the authentic teachings of our Imams which is to supplicate to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) only. 

Imam Ali (عليه السلام) writes to his son Imam Hassan (عليه السلام)

In all affairs resign yourself to Allah, because you will thus be resigning yourself to a secure shelter and a strong protector. You should ask only from your Lord because in His hand is all the giving and depriving.

Nahjul Balagha Letter 31

Well, there are two main sources one of which is Quran and second is Hadith. When the principal source Quran says to request the prophet to ask for your forgiveness and be the intercessor then I think providing any quote of Imam which does not explicitly reject the intercession would be wrong because prayers and asking someone to become an intercessor are two different things. All prayers are to Allah but asking a noble personality to be the intercessor is also from the teachings of Quran. Please do read the verse of Surah Munafiqoon where Allah says to go to Prophet so that he may pray for your forgiveness. Thus, when we ask a personality to do something for us, we ask it with the intention of intercession which is not wrong if you were taught that in childhood. 

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AssalamuAlaikum! I had quite a few doubts about this subject. The following lecture series really explains the topic well and provides evidence from various sources.

Maybe it helps Insha'Allah. W'Salam

 

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11 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

Well, there are two main sources one of which is Quran and second is Hadith. When the principal source Quran says to request the prophet to ask for your forgiveness and be the intercessor then I think providing any quote of Imam which does not explicitly reject the intercession would be wrong because prayers and asking someone to become an intercessor are two different things. All prayers are to Allah but asking a noble personality to be the intercessor is also from the teachings of Quran. Please do read the verse of Surah Munafiqoon where Allah says to go to Prophet so that he may pray for your forgiveness. Thus, when we ask a personality to do something for us, we ask it with the intention of intercession which is not wrong if you were taught that in childhood. 

You seem to be confusing two different things. What the Quran has described is a situation where hypocrites did not ask the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) to pray for their forgiveness (the next ayah then says that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wouldn't have forgiven them either way)

What we are discussing is the modern day trend of people directing their supplications to the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) or Aimmah (عليه السلام), and this act is found nowhere in the Quran.  On the contrary we have ayaat and narrations telling us to seek help and supplicate to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) alone. 

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On 11/25/2022 at 8:49 AM, Searching for truth said:

Firstly, when you said Ya Hussain were you asking Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) for help as an independent entity who can help you without regard to Allah, or were you saying Ya Hussain because you know he is Allah ((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))'s perfect representative and may be able to ask Allah for help on your behalf due to your love for Allah and him?

In either case , supplicating to other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not a practice of taught by the Qur'an or authentic narrations of the masumeen (عليه السلام).

See the references I provided above in Nahjul Balagha (sermon 110 and letter 31)

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Imamate is a divine covenant as per 2:124.

وَإِذِ ابْتَلَىٰ إِبْرَاهِيمَ رَبُّهُ بِكَلِمَاتٍ فَأَتَمَّهُنَّ ۖ قَالَ إِنِّي جَاعِلُكَ لِلنَّاسِ إِمَامًا ۖ قَالَ وَمِنْ ذُرِّيَّتِي ۖ قَالَ لَا يَنَالُ عَهْدِي الظَّالِمِينَ {124}

[Shakir 2:124] And when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, he fulfilled them. He said: Surely I will make you an Imam of men. Ibrahim said: And of my offspring? My covenant does not include the unjust, said He.

As for shifa'ah, there are many verses in Quran which one can show to these salafi's if they are really ignorant of what shifa'ah really means. Here are few verses:

يَمْلِكُونَ الشَّفَاعَةَ إِلَّا مَنِ اتَّخَذَ عِنْدَ الرَّحْمَٰنِ عَهْدًا {87}

[Shakir 19:87] They shall not control intercession, save he who has made a covenant with the Beneficent Allah.

يَوْمَئِذٍ لَا تَنْفَعُ الشَّفَاعَةُ إِلَّا مَنْ أَذِنَ لَهُ الرَّحْمَٰنُ وَرَضِيَ لَهُ قَوْلًا {109}

[Shakir 20:109] On that day shall no intercession avail except of him whom the Beneficent Allah allows and whose word He is pleased with.

We all know the misdaaq of "allathina" of al-Fatiha, the group of people who neither gone astray nor they become مغضوب 

There is no need to doubt whatsoever on the shi'i concept & understanding of شفاعة.

Wassalam!!

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11 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

You seem to be confusing two different things. What the Quran has described is a situation where hypocrites did not ask the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) to pray for their forgiveness (the next ayah then says that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wouldn't have forgiven them either way)

What we are discussing is the modern day trend of people directing their supplications to the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) or Aimmah (عليه السلام), and this act is found nowhere in the Quran.  On the contrary we have ayaat and narrations telling us to seek help and supplicate to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) alone. 

Well, the first verse question their faith and describes to them their state that because they are hypocrites they don't go to Prophet for asking him to pray for their forgiveness. Thus, the condition for the Dua of the Prophet to be accepted is related to the willingness to change their state. Since they are not willing to change themselves, such Dua even if made for the hypocrites would not be accepted because they don't want to change themselves. It is not the case for believers who request prophet to pray for them.

As far those as directing supplication to Ahlebait is concerned, most of the people are actually requesting them to be their intercessors and they know that if their such requests are granted, they are actually because of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and not that Ahlebait (عليه السلام) have such power to grant things at their own. The actual thing is to see what is niyah of people when they request Ahlebait to be their intercessor whether they believe that everything is granted from Allah or not. 

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14 hours ago, Mahdavist said:
On 11/25/2022 at 7:49 AM, Searching for truth said:

 

In either case , supplicating to other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is not a practice of taught by the Qur'an or authentic narrations of the masumeen (عليه السلام).

See the references I provided above in Nahjul Balagha (sermon 110 and letter 31)

salam dear brother

don't we ask other believers to pray for us? Is it considered supplicating to ask believers to pray for us. The answer would generally be no

Therefore can we call asking ahlulbayt "supplicating" to them?

Do you believe that Ahlulbayt can hear us from far away? Do you believe in something like ziyarat ashura?

if we are asking ahlulbayt to ask Allah, where's the problem? When Ahlulbayt are asked for example for X or Y, it should be with the intention that they ask Allah for you, not that they have any independent power. Is this any different than asking other believers to pray for us which is recommended

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5 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

 

As far those as directing supplication to Ahlebait is concerned, most of the people are actually requesting them to be their intercessors and they know that if their such requests are granted, they are actually because of Allah (عزّ وجلّ) and not that Ahlebait (عليه السلام) have such power to grant things at their own.

This logic is rather strange brother.  Essentially you are saying that the one supplicating believes that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) grants their dua, but will supplicate to other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) while still believing that they aren't granting the dua.

This belief sounds similar to the mushrikun of Mecca who used to also believe in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) but still supplicated to the idols.

See verse 38 of Surah Zumar

If you ask them, ‘Who created the heavens and the earth?’ they will surely say, ‘Allah.’ Say, ‘Have you considered what you invoke besides Allah? Should Allah desire some distress for me, can they remove the distress visited by Him? Or should He desire some mercy for me, can they withhold His mercy?’ Say, ‘Allah is sufficient for me. In Him let all the trusting put their trust.

 

5 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

The actual thing is to see what is niyah of people when they request Ahlebait to be their intercessor whether they believe that everything is granted from Allah or not. 

If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says to supplicate only to Him, and the Prophet and the Imams say to supplicate only to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), I don't understand why people are disobeying this command. 

2 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

salam dear brother

don't we ask other believers to pray for us? Is it considered supplicating to ask believers to pray for us. The answer would generally be no

Therefore can we call asking ahlulbayt "supplicating" to them?

Wa alaikum as salam brother 

There is a difference between asking someone to pray for you, and to actually pray directly to that person. 

If one is asking from Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) then one addresses Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), as per the sunnah of the Quran,  the Prophet and the Imams. 

If you are claiming that these supplications are only requests to make dua, then they are worded incorrectly. Even then, the etiquette of dua that has been taught by the Quran and the Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) is different to what you are describing. 

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On 11/26/2022 at 8:47 PM, realizm said:

:salam:

Ya Hussein (عليه السلام) is not tawassul or shafa`a.

It's a slogan of allegiance. 

As Salamu Alaykum, 

 

This is what I had always thought as well. The controversial statement that I know of with regards to Tawassul is people saying Ya Ali Madad. Something which I personally disagree with.

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As per this salafish  :hahaha: logic, the sons of Prophet Ya'qoob were "supplicating" to him instead of "asking" him this:

قَالُواْ يَا أَبَانَا اسْتَغْفِرْ لَنَا ذُنُوبَنَا إِنَّا كُنَّا خَاطِئِينَ

12:97) They said: O our father! ask forgiveness of our faults for us, surely we were sinners.

Just look at the answer given by their father who was a Prophet:

قَالَ سَوْفَ أَسْتَغْفِرُ لَكُمْ رَبِّي ۖ إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ 

12:98) He said: I will ask for you forgiveness from my Lord; surely He is the Forgiving, the Merciful.

Ahh what a slap for Salafish way of thinking!!! Well, he must have guided them to ask forgiveness from their Lord who is Forgiving, the Merciful. That's how salafi steriotype try to teach a Prophet. 

What actually turns "asking" into "supplicating", mind answering this please?

3 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

if we are asking ahlulbayt to ask Allah, where's the problem?

Actually they inject problem by asserting that you are not asking rather you are supplicating. 

Furthermore, I would also like to state that the Imams of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام are the witness over people. Don't ever think that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) has appointed deaf & blind people as witness over us. They are aware of our deeds and the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as well. This is in accordance with the verses of Quran. 

Wassalam!!

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10 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

 

This belief sounds similar to the mushrikun of Mecca who used to also believe in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) but still supplicated to the idols.

See verse 38 of Surah Zumar

If you ask them, ‘Who created the heavens and the earth?’ they will surely say, ‘Allah.’ Say, ‘Have you considered what you invoke besides Allah? Should Allah desire some distress for me, can they remove the distress visited by Him? Or should He desire some mercy for me, can they withhold His mercy?’ Say, ‘Allah is sufficient for me. In Him let all the trusting put their trust.

 

the context of this verse is different because the pagans believed that the idols had independent power from Allah, and people who do direct tawassul don't have this belief. there is unanimity in the shia school of thought that believing anything other than Allah is independent is a misguided belief, so I wouldn't apply this verse. 

Second this also may not apply because those who do tawassul pray to Allah directly and supplicate to Allah directly, but may ask Ahlulbayt from time to time to intercede. 

The second thing I have to ask is that the comparison you are drawing is not accurate about supplication. 

10 hours ago, Mahdavist said:
15 hours ago, Borntowitnesstruth said:

 

This logic is rather strange brother.  Essentially you are saying that the one supplicating believes that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) grants their dua, but will supplicate to other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) while still believing that they aren't granting the dua.

Asking and supplicating are two different things. we know that Ahlulbayt have zero power of their own, and that all their virtues come from Allah, and their entire existence is entirely by Allah's will, and so are all things completely dependent on Allah. Asking is a more accurate term.

The "supplicating" to other than Allah is not because they can grant the dua, its because of their esteemed station, and because of such a station, requests they make from God are more likely to be answered than ours. 

I don't think you reject that asking others to pray for you is a good thing. For example, you might ask your mother to pray for you, because you know that the dua of a mother has a high likelihood of acceptance. The mother has an esteemed position in Allah's sight in relation to her child. So what about the spiritual mother and father, such as Amir al mo'mineen or Fatima Al Zahra (عليه السلام). 

10 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

 

There is a difference between asking someone to pray for you, and to actually pray directly to that person. 

I understand what you mean in this point. I think you may say that people ask Ahlulbayt for X and Y. Intention matters though. 

I feel like we can can open up this discussion much more, but I need to do some research. 

12. Seeking Help From The Spirits Of Awliya’ Allah | Wahhabism, 2nd Edition Revised, Edited And Annotated | Al-Islam.org

i'll leave this for now to open up the discussion

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It's not as confusing as people tend to make it, if one bothers not to actually over complicate it. 

1. If, as quoted that asking anyone other than Allah for help "Do not call onto any beings other than Allah" is wrong at face value, then someone either tell me "Hal min nasir" is made up, or Imam hussein missed this part of the Quran.

2. As someone mentioned earlier, asking someone for help, as in mr or ms X, you are closer to Allah, and you have been given certain elevations by Allah, can you hook me up with this problem I'm having? Is very different than to pray to that person, as in worshipping. You don't worship your doctor when asking for help, nor your teacher, nor your parents but you keep nagging these people for help constantly.

3. Then comes the: well they are alive, you are asking a dead person. The Quran, or should i say Allah, spesifically bothered to mention that the shuhada are not dead, what other reasons would he have in informing us of this as it has zero value to our lives and the message of the Quran...unless it actually knew people will use the dead person card a lot.

4. Using English translated words such as pray, supplication, asking, begging etc are often cause of more confusion than actually helping.

5. The problem arises when people exaggerate and give the masoomeen higher status than what Allah has ordained...which are the Parents, Ulama, and societies fault..the limitations should be taught at a young age.

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I have to add the words of Ayatollah Bahjat. 

Whilst I understand some don't consider the actions of scholars to be a proof in itself, it personally has a great influence on my leanings if a jurist who is known to be an arif does or says something, especially those who are known to have reached the highest levels of faith, and are drowned in monotheism. 

another thing to add is that the source is from this website The Center for Compilation and Publication of the Works of Grand Ayatollah Bahjat

Quote

We are on the verge of drowning in the sea of life, and we are in need of the assistance of God's Wali in order to reach the destination safely. We must seek help from Imam Mahdi, may God hasten his reappearance, so that he may lighten the path for us, and take us with himself, to the destination.

Quote

Tawassul [seeking an intermediary] is very beneficial. Visit these Imamzadahs! Just like fruits, each of which has an important vitamin, these great men too have specific characteristics and effects.

Quote

Reforming the prayers means reforming its apparent as well as its inner reality, and refraining from apparent and hidden evils. Amongst the ways of reforming prayers is seeking the intercession of the Imam seriously, just before starting the prayers.

Ayatollah Bahjat was also praised very much for his skill in jurisprudence.

he also says:

Quote

In times of difficulties and afflictions, man has no option but to seek the intercession of God, and take refuge in Him every moment. 

interestingly, perhaps he never saw a contradiction between these two things

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On 11/28/2022 at 5:20 PM, Mahdavist said:

This logic is rather strange brother.  Essentially you are saying that the one supplicating believes that Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) grants their dua, but will supplicate to other than Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) while still believing that they aren't granting the dua.

This belief sounds similar to the mushrikun of Mecca who used to also believe in Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) but still supplicated to the idols.

See verse 38 of Surah Zumar

If you ask them, ‘Who created the heavens and the earth?’ they will surely say, ‘Allah.’ Say, ‘Have you considered what you invoke besides Allah? Should Allah desire some distress for me, can they remove the distress visited by Him? Or should He desire some mercy for me, can they withhold His mercy?’ Say, ‘Allah is sufficient for me. In Him let all the trusting put their trust.

Brother, I think you didn't understand me. I said if you are near the grave of a Holy personality. You can ask them to pray for you before Allah (عزّ وجلّ). Some people may think that they are praying to them but it's not true. It's a kind of intercession as told by Quran to ask the noble ones to pray for you. If anyone think it's wrong, he has not read Quran properly.

 

On 11/28/2022 at 5:20 PM, Mahdavist said:

If Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) says to supplicate only to Him, and the Prophet and the Imams say to supplicate only to Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى), I don't understand why people are disobeying this command. 

I did not say that supplicate to any other than Allah (عزّ وجلّ) but requesting a noble personality for interceding may look to you supplication but it's not. It's permission is granted in Quran as sons of Prophet Yaqoob (عليه السلام) said to pray for them and also for our prophet same thing was said. So, do not judge anyone's intention bro. 

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