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In the Name of God بسم الله

Hijab and misogyny

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In this video, Ayatollah Khamenei (q) explains that although the West claims Islam (Iran) is the one with the problem on women's rights, it's actually the other way around. Islam wasn't the one which reduced women to a commodity, the Ayatollah says. The West claims that if women are forced to cover up and follow a religion, they will not be able to make progress. However, Iranian women have proved this wrong, as they have become scientists, professors, athletes... professionals in all fields. All while wearing the hijab. They achieved it in this world, and they will be rewarded in the next, inshallah.

رَبَّنَا آتِنَا فِي الدُّنْيَا حَسَنَةً وَفِي الْآخِرَةِ حَسَنَةً وَقِنَا عَذَابَ النَّارِ

‘Our Lord, give us good in this world and good in the Hereafter, and save us from the punishment of the Fire.’ [2:201]

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On 11/11/2022 at 6:12 PM, EiE said:

We men are also instructed to lower our gaze, which is much simpler to do if women are dressed modestly. I firmly believe that if everyone adhered to these basic guidelines, both personally and as a society, we would be in a much healthier condition.

Well then explain to me why most men in the Arab Islamic world will still stare at women no matter what she’s wearing. Explain to me why men will still sexually abuse women and rape them even as hijabis. Even if hypothetically those guidelines were adhered that’s not gonna fix our society nor keep it in a healthy condition because our society is filled with fasaad. Men have a tendency to stare either way. Now, I’m not using this as an excuse for non hijabis, I’m being realistic here.

 

On 11/11/2022 at 6:20 PM, EiE said:

 

Also, because women are "rebellious" by nature, they must be "managed & policed," or otherwise the world would be in a much more chaotic state.

 

Um what? “Managed and policed?” What are we, machines? 

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On 11/11/2022 at 3:20 PM, EiE said:

Also, because women are "rebellious" by nature, they must be "managed & policed," or otherwise the world would be in a much more chaotic state.

Have you ever questioned why Islam makes no mention of any female prophets or imams?  pondered why certain rulings are applied differently to men and women?

Did you fail to notice that the leaders of evil mentioned in the Quran are almost all (if not all) men? But you only spoke about the prophets {a} being men. There are some Muslim scholars (e.g. Ibn Hazm) who think Sayyida Maryam {a} was a prophet because she received some revelation. 

Consider who commits more violent crime and acts of war. Even in polls women are more anti-war.

Islam has some differences in its rulings for the two genders, but for reasons other than what you stated. 

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3 hours ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

Um what? “Managed and policed?” What are we, machines? 

No, but since the original author used these words, I decided to use them too.

 

3 hours ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

Well then explain to me why most men in the Arab Islamic world will still stare at women no matter what she’s wearing. Explain to me why men will still sexually abuse women and rape them even as hijabis. Even if hypothetically those guidelines were adhered that’s not gonna fix our society nor keep it in a healthy condition because our society is filled with fasaad. Men have a tendency to stare either way. Now, I’m not using this as an excuse for non hijabis, I’m being realistic here.

 

I can't explain it because you're referring to unusual situations, which are known as outliers and they will always exist.

Even if such were the case, would the harassment be worse if the ladies were dressed modestly with hijab as opposed to yoga pants? I doubt it.

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2 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Did you fail to notice that the leaders of evil mentioned in the Quran are almost all (if not all) men?

2 hours ago, Muhammed Ali said:

Consider who commits more violent crime and acts of war. Even in polls women are more anti-war.

 

There's an old adage in real estate that you don't sell the house to the man, but to the women who will convince the man to buy the house.

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I’d just first like to say two things: 1. obviously there is a biological component to attraction and it works differently between the two genders and 2. modesty does have its place in islam, but female physical modesty is pretty much the majority of how islamic modesty is currently being practiced 

On 11/13/2022 at 11:18 PM, Abu Hadi said:

The burden falls on both. The concept of hijab applies to both, although it is different. As it says in the Holy Quran, men are supposed to 'guard their glance' and 'cover their private parts'. Women are also told to do this, and in addition, they are told to 'cast their khimar over their bosoms'. This means, they are already wearing a khimar (head covering), so they are supposed to let it hang down so that it covers their chest area. This command was given to women and not to men. 

With regards to the khimar: in the ancient jahilya times of Arabia why did women wear a head cover historically before Islamic modesty was a thing? Was it not part of their perhaps cultural head cover (which men had as well)? I think someone in the thread did mention that women in Arabia also covered their heads for cultural and climate related reasons. Or was it to cover their hair for modest reasons?
 

On 11/13/2022 at 11:18 PM, Abu Hadi said:

The maintaining of modesty in society falls equally on men and women. It is like two people carrying a bucket of water and there is a pole going thru the handle of the bucket. Each one grabs one side of the pole. If either person drops their end, the bucket will fall and the water will spill on the ground and be gone. If women 'drop their end', modesty will go out from society, and if men drop their end, it will also go out. 

Men have dropped their end. Women are observing modesty in eastern countries and still have the same (maybe even higher) harassment rates as non modest countries. And we are carrying more load of the bucket, not equally
 

On 11/13/2022 at 11:18 PM, Abu Hadi said:

Men and women are equal but they are not the same. You can look at this from a historical perspective. Traditionally, for many thousands of years of human society, men were hunters whose main task was to go out and get meat for the family. They accomplished this by being physically strong, fast, and having a very developed and acute vision. You can't be a successful hunter and catch the animal if you can't see it, and can't follow it's movements visually. They needed this for survival of themselves and their family. Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) knew this, so he gave them a very acute sense of vision and also many neural connections to different parts of the brain that respond to visual stimuli. So men are stimulated (at least initially) mainly thru the eyes, thru seeing something. Women have a more diverse set of stimuli (taste, touch, smell, sound, and also vision) that lead to the same result and their brain is more complex in terms of stimulation vs. men. 

Actually, historically women were also gatherers and foragers and their tasks encountered plenty of visual stimulus. Women weren’t just sitting in caves bottle feeding their children. Every time we bring up a fault in men it is conveniently attributed it to their cavemen ancestors. I’ve heard men justifying their attraction to minors and children through a similar narrative of “biologically” wanting to reproduce with younger “fertile” girls and their eggs, when reproduction and bearing offspring is actually the last thing on these sick men’s minds and I doubt has any role in their twisted desires. We are not cavemen anymore. As muslims it is important to discipline yourself and nafs. 
 

On 11/13/2022 at 11:18 PM, Abu Hadi said:

Men, when they see a women who is pleasing to them, visually, they will react 100% of the time, because this is how their brain works.

What do you mean “react”? Look? Harass her? And I’m sorry, am I supposed to applaud a mu’min for leaving women alone? That should be the bare minimum of human decency. If you see an attractive woman in public, she is a stranger so just leave her alone. It should not be a given that you stare(debatable as to an extent staring is innate as you have perhaps said, and beautiful people will have people stare at them)/harass/harm her because she is on “display”. Also, not every woman is “attractive”, so it is not like every woman you ever meet will be an attractive seductresses. Beauty is very subjective. An issue we actually have with society at large is women in the 50-70 age group being almost invisible from society. This is a phenomenon that occurs when women lose their “beauty”. Do they then need hijab? Also the fact that girls aged 9-16 should not even be pursued by men because they are literally children, and again your discipline should play more of a role in leaving her alone and not harming her than her covering her body. 
 

On 11/13/2022 at 11:18 PM, Abu Hadi said:

This is why ulema or leaders, who have the power to do this, will insist that women who interview them wear hijab. It is not showing any disrespect toward the women (as it is portrayed in the Western Media), it is them trying to protect themselves. They know that if they see an attractive women unveiled they will be stimulated by it and it will distract them and move their thoughts toward areas which they shouldn't go. They are acknowledging their own frailty as a human being and as a man. It is the opposite of showing disrespect, it is showing respect by telling the lady that we should keep the interview focused on the issues at hand and acknowledging that they are important issues and this lady is worthy to discuss them with. All guys who are mumin would do this, if they could. Most of them don't have any say in what women around them are wearing (ie. hijab). 

Is this the case for every single woman the man ever encounters? Like I said, no human will be attracted to every woman. And excuse my language, but is this religious man who is meeting up with women an animal who cannot view the person in front of him as a human and only the object of his lust? Is sexuality the only thing his mind thinks about when any woman is around? Can he not have a proper conversation without his mind straying to sexual thoughts? This frailty as a human seems like an excuse and a cop out. And it is actually somewhat demeaning to say this about people we consider extremely pious in our societies. That they cannot focus around women existing with hair uncovered and normal non-sexual body parts such as arms for example being exposed. There are plenty of scenarios where men and woman interact about serious conversations and can focus on the issues at hand without letting their thoughts interrupt them. Have you ever had woman coworkers? Or female classmates? If you have an intrusive thought, put your head down and focus. 

This is why I’m saying the hijab is reinforcing the sexualisation of the female body. A body is just the physical parameters we occupy on this earth. The issue of societies sexualising the female body is the issue we should be dismantling. Not victim blaming and trying to reduce men harassing women by saying “well her body is out for display what I am supposed to do other than be tempted and harm her!”. There have been plenty of examples of indigenous matriarchal tribes where women would walk around topless and cases of assault towards women rarely occur. Because they don’t view and treat the female body as a shameful temptation.

On 11/13/2022 at 11:18 PM, Abu Hadi said:

The reason why hijab is necessary is because there is an 'in between' group, which is most men. If they don't have this visual stimulus, they will not react and as a consequence, the women of the society will be safe from this reaction, which may sometimes drift into sin / harm, even for the in between group. It is the reaction of this in between group which will determine if the society is corrupt or not, first because they are most men, and second because their reaction is contingent and dependent on the visual stimulus. Their reaction is like the variable in an equation, as opposed to a constant. 

This is not the case we see happening today. Men do not have this visual stimulus you say, but hijabi women are still being harmed and harassed. And it happens at a too large magnitude to ignore, and act like it’s only a small minority of fasiq men. The majority of men who fall into the middle category should have the burden on them to avoid harassing and harming women. For you to say it depends on the woman’s display is victim blaming. She was walking around purposely visually stimulating me so I can harass her! As if he doesn’t have a choice in harming her or not, and acting upon his “temptation”. It is also very unrealistic for you to believe that if this middle man wanted to harass a woman, seeing less of her body can work to stop him. 

Not to mention, convicted rapists always mention the fact that power is a large factor for raping their victims. This power dynamic between men and women drives a lot of men to abuse their power, and a lot of times beauty has nothing to do with it. It’s not only the most beautiful women in society being abused, it can be any woman, at any age, regardless of her looks. Men have abused their power to degrade and harm women for centuries. Islam literally came down on some of the most misogynistic communities/cultures in human existence.

On 11/13/2022 at 11:18 PM, Abu Hadi said:

You say this is 'unfair', but that is like saying gravity is unfair. Why is it that if we jump off the top of a roof we will get injured or killed (if it is high enough). Gravity is what it is. It is how Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made it. Thinking it is fair or unfair won't change it, just like thinking the 'reaction' of men is unfair won't change it. We can, however, use this to our advantage and not to our disadvantage by observing the commands and advice given to us by Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) regarding this, i.e. practicing proper hijab. 

No, I will continue thinking of men’s reaction as unfair. I refuse to believe that it is a given that the majority of these men will harm and harass women when presented with their bodies, and there is nothing to do about it but cover the body. Because like I have stated clothing has little to do with the fact if a woman comes to harm or not. She will still be treated like a woman so long as men view her as one and submit to the idea that her body is inherently sexual. Men need to reform and unlearn a lot of their behaviours and stop attributing them to biology and uncontrollable factors.

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On 11/11/2022 at 9:20 AM, EiE said:

Also, because women are "rebellious" by nature, they must be "managed & policed," or otherwise the world would be in a much more chaotic state.

What does this even mean? 
 

Women are actually much less rebellious, and much more agreeable and conforming than men. This has been maintained by major psychologists. It explains why women don't do as well as men in business. 
 

So what exactly are you "policing"?

 

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On 11/15/2022 at 8:08 PM, 3wliya_maryam said:
On 11/11/2022 at 3:12 PM, EiE said:

 

Well then explain to me why most men in the Arab Islamic world will still stare at women no matter what she’s wearing. Explain to me why men will still sexually abuse women and rape them even as hijabis. Even if hypothetically those guidelines were adhered that’s not gonna fix our society nor keep it in a healthy condition because our society is filled with fasaad. Men have a tendency to stare either way. Now, I’m not using this as an excuse for non hijabis, I’m being realistic here.

the solution here is not to increase the chances of men staring by not adhering to guidelines. Yes, men can still stare at women in hijab, and women in hijab are able to be raped or sexually assaulted no doubt, but what are the rates of this happening to hijabis vs non-hijabis. I don't have a statistic so I'm curious if anyone has a study.

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On 11/13/2022 at 6:43 AM, PureExistence1 said:

However, another woman whos first and primary concern is her submission to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) and protecting her soul from the harm of getting involved in immoral actions,(which includes dressing in a way that shows others shes not interested as well as acting in that manner, not being a chadori woman and acting flirtatious) her intentions will produce an outcome appropriate to her intentions of good.

Women who observe proper hijab as per the most conservative guidelines do not necessarily “produce an outcome appropriate to her intentions”. You can google the stats of women being harassed in holy places like Makah and Medina. Also occurs in places like Najaf and Karbala. These are not isolated outlier cases, it happens far too often.

Women who do not observe hijab, for example non-muslim women, do not go about their life trying to flirt and tempt every man they encounter. They are literally just existing, but you view their uncovered existence as inherently showing availability and temptation towards men which is grossly unfair to them. 

 

On 11/13/2022 at 6:43 AM, PureExistence1 said:

To say it doesnt work implies a deficiency in Allahs(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) wisdom and governing laws for His creation since its in the Quran that it says women should cover and act modestly, not from some obscure sheikh or hadith.

We are practising Islam based off of centuries old narrations, and there is no group of muslims that can agree to the same practice. So which group is practising as per God’s exact wisdom? I am not denying that modesty is an islamic concept. I am questioning the way muslims currently practice islamic modesty, which seems far too concerned with women’s appearance than anything else.

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On 11/16/2022 at 10:30 AM, EiE said:

There's an old adage in real estate that you don't sell the house to the man, but to the women who will convince the man to buy the house.

Not sure if one of my posts has not been approved by the mods yet, but it also seems unfair that this guy gets to spew his misogynistic rhetoric and include outdated adages. This saying is classic men not taking accountability and blaming women for their actions. Isn’t Iblees, the angel of rebellion, male?

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On 11/13/2022 at 7:52 PM, Haji 2003 said:

Why, as an accident of birth, should the rich have to be the ones constrained by religion in terms of having to make choices about how the spend their wealth? All the laws for them about khums, zakat and inheritance, fall disproportionately on them.

These analogies do not make any sense and are not relevant. But anyway, those laws would actually fall proportionately. It’s logical that the richer you are the more you would pay, because for example 1% of someone who makes a million dollars is ten thousand, but someone whose yearly making is ten thousand will obviously be affected significantly if they have to pay the same amount. Ten thousand dollars to a millionaire is not the same to someone much poorer. And the rich are not constrained by the religion, as they will remain rich even after paying everything off. It does not change anything for them. I don’t think anyone can dispute the fairness and equity that needs to be taken into consideration when talking about financial matters. The Hijab? Not so much. It’s one gender’s burden and it doesn’t take into account the persons own conditions. It doesn’t care about age, beauty, community, environment or anything. All women regardless of age, and no matter how attractive or unattractive they are must cover their hair. Even logically, there is no woman on earth that will “tempt” every man, and there is no man on earth that will be tempted by every women. Not to mention, there are mahrams out there who are tempted by their own daughters/sisters/nieces etc. I have already posted that a large number of rape and sexual harassment cases that occur to women are committed by people they KNOW. Meaning relatives including fathers and brothers. This isn’t a small number either. So what is the solution then? How do these women “prevent” harm? 

And since we are talking about class, how come slave women are not required to wear the hijab? If the Hijab is a blanket rule that applies to all muslim women, why weren’t muslimah slaves instructed or even allowed to wear it? Was it not an islamic obligation for them too? Are we not all Allah’s slaves? Was there hair not tempting or beautifying? The hijab (or khimar was the proper word is) was used to distinguish between free Arab women and slave women. It was symbol of class, not modesty. 

The hijab becomes more and more confusing the more you research it, and it makes absolutely no logical sense from a historical or social point of view. 

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On 11/17/2022 at 2:50 AM, Guest Guest said:

) her intentions will produce an outcome appropriate to her intentions of good.

@Guest Guest,

La illaha illa lah.

Im not referring to the dunya-i aspect. Im talking about her submission leading to an appropriate outcome of her intentiins in her spiritual growth and elevation... I already mentioned that there will always be the possibility of a woman being harmed by a man, however, if she desires to spiritually elevate, the path to doing so is through submission to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) which includes hijab.

On 11/17/2022 at 2:50 AM, Guest Guest said:

no group of muslims that can agree to the same practice. So which group is practising as per God’s exact wisdom?

The answer to this is to act according to your knowledge of the religion, not your desires. If your shia, go by shia fiqh. If youre hanafi, go by hanafi fiqh, etc. The point is to act according to what is islamically prescribed according to scholars that have extracted the rulings from the sunnah of the Prophet(SAWS) reliable hadith, and the Imams(عليه السلام) after 30, 40, 50, 60+ years of studying and immersing themselves in islam, something youre not gonna find here.

Your experience in the hereafter will be exactly commensurate with your submission, your knowledge, and how you acted according to it. So if you're fooling yourself or intentionally being difficult and unwilling to comply, youre really only hurting yourself, just like how a guy that stares is really only hurting his own soul, in real terms.

 

 

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On 11/17/2022 at 11:50 AM, Guest Guest said:

Women who observe proper hijab as per the most conservative guidelines do not necessarily “produce an outcome appropriate to her intentions”. You can google the stats of women being harassed in holy places like Makah and Medina. Also occurs in places like Najaf and Karbala. These are not isolated outlier cases, it happens far too often.

Yes, that does happen, but my own intuition would lead me to believe that it would have occurred far more frequently if the women had been dressed less modestly.

Secondly, there are several layers of hijab, including the social hijab, which is equally, if not more, important.
If a woman were adopting the proper social hijab, she would not go to areas where there is a possibility of being harassed by other creeps or places where she knows is full of males or not appropriate, like bars, clubs, parties, etc., unless absolutely necessary , and if really required, she would most likely bring a male mahram companion with her to such places.

The issue is that women think differently than men, which is why I believe the husband has the final say in situations like this in islam, for example if the wife wants to leave the house.

As for the males who continue to do such things, I would say they are losers and not genuine muslims.
Because if they can do that to muslim believers who dress modestly, imagine what they will do to other women who dress less modestly.

 

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On 11/16/2022 at 8:24 AM, Guest Guest said:

With regards to the khimar: in the ancient jahilya times of Arabia why did women wear a head cover historically before Islamic modesty was a thing? Was it not part of their perhaps cultural head cover (which men had as well)? I think someone in the thread did mention that women in Arabia also covered their heads for cultural and climate related reasons. Or was it to cover their hair for modest reasons?

Salam covering hair of women women in the ancient jahilya times of Arabia has been sign of freedom of women & being from noble family which slave women & maidens have not allowed to cover their head which according to Sunni sources Umar has beaten a slave woman for covering her head so then ordered her to remove her Khimar because Umar still has believed to jahilya principles although of converting to Islam & being one of companions of prophet Muhammad (pbu) which Salafis & wahabists justify beating slave woman by Umar due to wearing Jilbab as observing Islamic rules

Quote

Musannaf-ibn-abi-shaybah-6382-and-6382-1024x758.jpeg

الاستفتاء

Hazrat Umar once lashed a slave girl with a whip and said to her, “القی عنك الخمار، أتشبھین بالحرائر یادفار”. However, in the end, she is only a woman. The Holy Prophet S.A was very strict regarding the Hijab, and he even took a cloth and covered a disbelieving woman. So, how could this statement be ascribed to someone such as Hazrat Umar?

الجواب حامدا و مصلیا

A slave girl is not obligated by the Shari’ah to wear the Hijab. In those days, there was a specific code of dress from which slaves were identified. Since the slave girl violated this code of dress, which made her resemble the free women, Hazrat Umar ((رضي الله عنه)) had reprimanded her for it. Moreover, the disbelieving woman whom the Holy Prophet had covered with a cloth, was a free woman.
And Allah knows best.

 

Quote

In Sahih Muslim 1657b it says,

But he (Ibn Umar) said: You are free. He then took hold of something from the earth and said: There is no reward for me even to the weight equal to it. I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: He who beats a slave without cognizable offence of his or slaps him (without any serious fault), then expiation for it is that he should set him free.

Now, Musannaf ibn Abi Shaybah 6/236 says

Anas reported: Umar saw one of our maidservants wearing a veil and he flogged her. Umar said: Do not resemble free women

https://islam.stackexchange.com/questions/71941/beating-female-slaves-for-covering-up

 

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On 11/17/2022 at 2:20 PM, Guest Guest said:

Women who observe proper hijab as per the most conservative guidelines do not necessarily “produce an outcome appropriate to her intentions”. You can google the stats of women being harassed in holy places like Makah and Medina. Also occurs in places like Najaf and Karbala. These are not isolated outlier cases, it happens far too often.

Salam you refer to wrongdoing of corrupt men which we can find everywhere even in holy places that it has no relation to preserving proper Hijab which you are comaparing Apples with oranges just based on a google search which is not a reliable search because google serach results is based on advertisments & receiving financial support from anti Islamic sites which nowadays if you google about iran you only will find negative results about Iran which top results are due support of America & KSA against Iran which due to financial aid of KSA google only puts anti Iran propganda in top results & first ten page which in similar fashion if you travel to Najaf & Karbala so then you will see that all of men & women are very conservative about having proper Hijab which if a woman doesn't has a proper Hijab so then both of Women & Men will citicize her so then force her to corret her Hijab anyway in similar fashion of other cities you can find corrupt men in outskirts of Karbala & Najaf which  I guess in other holy places likewise Mecca & Median you will see same thing .

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On 11/16/2022 at 11:10 PM, khizarr said:

Women are actually much less rebellious, and much more agreeable and conforming than men. This has been maintained by major psychologists. It explains why women don't do as well as men in business. 

 

Quote

Joan Rivers Quote: “One of the most rebellious things a woman can do is  allow people

:censored:

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On 11/15/2022 at 11:54 PM, Guest Guest said:

I’d just first like to say two things: 1. obviously there is a biological component to attraction and it works differently between the two genders and 2. modesty does have its place in islam, but female physical modesty is pretty much the majority of how islamic modesty is currently being practiced 

With regards to the khimar: in the ancient jahilya times of Arabia why did women wear a head cover historically before Islamic modesty was a thing? Was it not part of their perhaps cultural head cover (which men had as well)? I think someone in the thread did mention that women in Arabia also covered their heads for cultural and climate related reasons. Or was it to cover their hair for modest reasons?
 

Men have dropped their end. Women are observing modesty in eastern countries and still have the same (maybe even higher) harassment rates as non modest countries. And we are carrying more load of the bucket, not equally
 

Actually, historically women were also gatherers and foragers and their tasks encountered plenty of visual stimulus. Women weren’t just sitting in caves bottle feeding their children. Every time we bring up a fault in men it is conveniently attributed it to their cavemen ancestors. I’ve heard men justifying their attraction to minors and children through a similar narrative of “biologically” wanting to reproduce with younger “fertile” girls and their eggs, when reproduction and bearing offspring is actually the last thing on these sick men’s minds and I doubt has any role in their twisted desires. We are not cavemen anymore. As muslims it is important to discipline yourself and nafs. 
 

What do you mean “react”? Look? Harass her? And I’m sorry, am I supposed to applaud a mu’min for leaving women alone? That should be the bare minimum of human decency. If you see an attractive woman in public, she is a stranger so just leave her alone. It should not be a given that you stare(debatable as to an extent staring is innate as you have perhaps said, and beautiful people will have people stare at them)/harass/harm her because she is on “display”. Also, not every woman is “attractive”, so it is not like every woman you ever meet will be an attractive seductresses. Beauty is very subjective. An issue we actually have with society at large is women in the 50-70 age group being almost invisible from society. This is a phenomenon that occurs when women lose their “beauty”. Do they then need hijab? Also the fact that girls aged 9-16 should not even be pursued by men because they are literally children, and again your discipline should play more of a role in leaving her alone and not harming her than her covering her body. 
 

Is this the case for every single woman the man ever encounters? Like I said, no human will be attracted to every woman. And excuse my language, but is this religious man who is meeting up with women an animal who cannot view the person in front of him as a human and only the object of his lust? Is sexuality the only thing his mind thinks about when any woman is around? Can he not have a proper conversation without his mind straying to sexual thoughts? This frailty as a human seems like an excuse and a cop out. And it is actually somewhat demeaning to say this about people we consider extremely pious in our societies. That they cannot focus around women existing with hair uncovered and normal non-sexual body parts such as arms for example being exposed. There are plenty of scenarios where men and woman interact about serious conversations and can focus on the issues at hand without letting their thoughts interrupt them. Have you ever had woman coworkers? Or female classmates? If you have an intrusive thought, put your head down and focus. 

This is why I’m saying the hijab is reinforcing the sexualisation of the female body. A body is just the physical parameters we occupy on this earth. The issue of societies sexualising the female body is the issue we should be dismantling. Not victim blaming and trying to reduce men harassing women by saying “well her body is out for display what I am supposed to do other than be tempted and harm her!”. There have been plenty of examples of indigenous matriarchal tribes where women would walk around topless and cases of assault towards women rarely occur. Because they don’t view and treat the female body as a shameful temptation.

This is not the case we see happening today. Men do not have this visual stimulus you say, but hijabi women are still being harmed and harassed. And it happens at a too large magnitude to ignore, and act like it’s only a small minority of fasiq men. The majority of men who fall into the middle category should have the burden on them to avoid harassing and harming women. For you to say it depends on the woman’s display is victim blaming. She was walking around purposely visually stimulating me so I can harass her! As if he doesn’t have a choice in harming her or not, and acting upon his “temptation”. It is also very unrealistic for you to believe that if this middle man wanted to harass a woman, seeing less of her body can work to stop him. 

Not to mention, convicted rapists always mention the fact that power is a large factor for raping their victims. This power dynamic between men and women drives a lot of men to abuse their power, and a lot of times beauty has nothing to do with it. It’s not only the most beautiful women in society being abused, it can be any woman, at any age, regardless of her looks. Men have abused their power to degrade and harm women for centuries. Islam literally came down on some of the most misogynistic communities/cultures in human existence.

No, I will continue thinking of men’s reaction as unfair. I refuse to believe that it is a given that the majority of these men will harm and harass women when presented with their bodies, and there is nothing to do about it but cover the body. Because like I have stated clothing has little to do with the fact if a woman comes to harm or not. She will still be treated like a woman so long as men view her as one and submit to the idea that her body is inherently sexual. Men need to reform and unlearn a lot of their behaviours and stop attributing them to biology and uncontrollable factors.

If you want to respond to my posts, I would appreciate it if you actually read my posts. That would be great. Thanks. 

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On 11/9/2022 at 12:02 PM, Guest Guest said:

Salam, 

As the title suggests I have really been struggling with the concept of hijab and female modesty as it is currently practiced. I know there have been similar topics to this one, but unfortunately replies tend to be condescending and don’t address a sister’s concerns. 

In islam, the female body is seen as an awrah and therefore must be covered from the gaze of men. How does this not objectify the female body? This is the definition of objectification because it is making it seem like the female body is inherently sexual and shameful and therefore must be covered.

I have been wearing the hijab for almost two decades and explaining the meaning behind it to non-muslims always has me double thinking what I am actually saying to them. 

It is extremely unfair that the burden falls on women to cover up from men, because of what can result from men potentially doing. On the contrary, the hijab does not “protect” women from such men, because sexual assault and harassment is rampant in places around the world where hijab is practiced, and men will continue to treat women how they treat women. If the only type of woman available is a covered one, then she’s still a woman to them. Men also assault children, other men and even animals and dead bodies.

Women’s clothing and the concept of modesty has been practiced since the start of time, and it’s not just an islamic concept. All aspects of modesty that pertain to women’s clothing are rooted in misogyny tbh, and it seems like it is another way for women’s bodies to be controlled and policed. The controversy surrounding a woman’s clothing is a tale as old as time and women to this day are shamed and blamed for what they wear, as their bodies are seen as shameful, so why do we accept that Islam is doing it for different reasons? 

I really have read many interpretations of the hijab, how it is worn and what it stands for but nothing seems logical or fair to me. I understand that not every ruling in islam is based on “human logic”, however if we just say this then it closes the door to questioning anything regarding religion. 

Anyone else feel trapped wearing it and struggle with seeing it so widely practiced and not even questioned? Like, I literally centre men around how I am viewed physically in public… 

I will be straightforward in replying to you so that you understand a man better.

Lets begin with the objectifying  statement, you know why is veil not objectifying a female rather training the society how to control their eyes. When you veil your body, you are actually blocking the sights of desperate youth who do not know how to control lust, thus, by not veiling a female is actually contributing factor to the crimes. Now, it may be that many men tell you that they are too mature to be attracted by opposite gender and that's why there is no need to use hijab, they are telling lies to you because it cannot happen that a male may not be attracted by the opposite gender except in cases where a male person is having a health problem. 

Well, Hijab actually protects a female as against a female who does not practice it, why? It is because it actually sends strong signals to the males that a female wearing hijab is not as simple to win as against a woman who does not wears hijab that is why a person talking to a hijabi or who does veil is always careful. It is from my experience being a male that a woman who does not do hijab or badly dressed sends such signals due to which man dares to say things which are improper to them. It is, thus, protecting but you have no idea about it.

No, you are wrong about it, the aspects of modesty that pertains to women's clothing are not rooted in misogyny. You are saying that because you are brainwashed by the surroundings in which you are living. On one hand, you say that woman should not be sexually harrassed, on the other hand those very woman provide the reason which causes such harrasment. These woman are actually feeding the brains of criminals to have daring to commit such crimes. Thus, it is not misogyny to say to woman do not pollute others' mind, it is actually telling them not to be a cause of sin in which you are going to entangle others. 

Every Ruling in Islam is based on logic, one just have to be clever enough not to be overwhelmed by brainwashing of the surrounding. Hijab may not make sense to a female because she has failed to calculate the good done to her because it is not visible to the eye but if you ask an honest male that how much good he has achieved by not having access to the lack of such surroundings where female don't care about their dressing, he will tell you that it has benefited him immensely.

Why do you care about how are you viewed physically in public as a hijabi, you are not a source of any harm. Those should worry who commit harm. 

 

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