Refuting Shaykh al-Mufid's Arguments for the Occultation

[Zaydism]

2 hours ago, Cool said:

Brother, if you are really unable to cite what the matn says, then allow me to show you what it says.

At first the text says:

واعلم ان الله عزوجل جعل خلف النبوة من ابناء نبيه في اثنى عشر سبطاً

So Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) made the successor of the Prophethood among the sons of His Prophet, and you have excluded al-Hassan & al-Hussain عليهم السلام from the list of 12.

What a joke!! 

What else, the matn also mentions the 12 Imams as:

8 hours ago, Zaidism said:

وهم بمنزلة اسباط بني اسرائيل حجة الله على خلقه وأمان أهل الأرض من استيصال عذابه

 

Note the terms "hujjat Allahe ala khalqeg", "amaana ahl al-ard". This essentially pointing towards the "ismah" of each & every Imam in the list of 12. 

This unfortunately, is not in line with the belief of your creed. 

Then we further see Zaidiyyah exclude from that list Imam al-Sajjad & Imam al-Baqir عليهم السلام. 

You see how our Zaydi Imam Ali b. Musa al-Rida mentions them collectively? Yes, they are collective proof over us. This is what we mean by the consensus of the Ahl al-Bayt, when these honorable men from the sons of al-Hasan, and al-Husayn reach a consensus it is a binding proof over the creation. Thank you for demonstrating once again the consistency of the Zaydi, and for avoiding to touch on my arguments against the occultation. \

2 hours ago, Cool said:

The alleged "profound statement" saying "We do not have an imam who is supposed to be obeyed after Hussain (عليه السلام)". So there were no amaan ahl al-ard & hujjatullahe ala khalqeh after Hussain (عليه السلام)? There were no "Ulil Amr" and the "amr of Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) cease to descend during that period (na'udobillah). 

After Imam Husayn there is no particular fatimid that has a binding authority exclusively, what is binding afterwards is the consensus. In terms of your appeal to ''amaan ahl al-ard & hujjatullahe ala khalqeh,'' etc. They are just words, you have no guidance, and you have no agreement whatsoever. You guys can't agree on whether the Quran is corrupted or not, you can't agree on Usul, you can't agree on governance, in the words of al-Tusi you don't have a Sahih hadith unless it is contradicted by another Sahih hadith. This is your attempt at damage control, yet anything you throw at me will come back to you tenfold, and we will also have a clear, consistent, and pragmatic answer to your misconceptions regarding the honorable Zaydi Madhab which is the tradition of the greats from among the sons of al-Hasan, and al-Husayn.

This is what the school of the Ahl al-Bayt is about, it is fortified by its very core, decisive in its message, appealing to the heart, consistent with history, and the Quran. 

2 hours ago, Cool said:

What else? during that period, all the believers who died, died the death of ignorance as per hadith:

من مات و لم يعرف الامام مات ميتة جاهلية

This hadith I remember is also present in masnad Zayd al-Shaheed

You know when the Prophet speaks, his words are actually meaningful. So, when he says you will die a death of ignorance, it is because something is missing. What did the people of ignorance lack? They lacked scripture. The Imam is scripture, it is the Quran. Hence, the people will be called by their Imam, they will be raised by their scripture. 

[Zaydism]

7 minutes ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

their martyred leader Hussein Badreddin al-Houth has converted from  Jarudiyah Zaidiah to Twelverism

Here is a lecture of him addressing the incoherence of an occult Imam, you shouldn't blindly quote stuff. 

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

10 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Zaydīs don’t say “our Imām killed our Imām” this is a childish conclusion, because Zaydīs don’t consider both of them to be Imāms. Rather, only one of them is an Imām

Nobody believes that an Imam has killed another Imam although your claim about not existance of two Imam at same time is wrong because our three Imams Imam Ali(عليه السلام) & Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussaein (عليه السلام) have been Imams at same time which after martyrdom of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) Imam Hasan (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) have been Imams at same time which their position in Imamate after each other  has been assigned by divine commad of Allah through prophet Muhammad (pbu) which name of twelve infallible Imams which 9 of them have been from descendants of Imam Husain (عليه السلام) has been mentioned in Hadith of luh (Tablet) which has been narrated by Jabir ibn abdullah Ansari (رضي الله عنه)  which live until era of Imam baqir (عليه السلام) which he has delivered greeting of prophet Muhammad (pbu) to Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) by recognizing Imam Baqir (عليه السلام) as an infallible Imam .

10 hours ago, Zaidism said:

This means that they are saying: May Allāh be pleased with the great of our Salaf Zurāra who our infallible Imām Jaʿfar b. Muḥammad cursed. And from another perspective: Our Salaf al-Ḥāfiḍ al-Shaykh al-Ṣadūq “may Allāh have mercy on him” who was refuted by our Salaf al-Ḥāfiḍ al-Shaykh al-Mufīd "may Allāh have mercy on him”. Moreover, both of them are the narrators of Ḥadīth, and the jurists who the occult Mahdī advised to hold onto. Then, each [Imāmī] jurist is cursing, and refuting the other [in matters of Uṣūl]. For, it is well known that al-Shaykh al-Ṣadūq cursed a group from the greats of the Imāmī Salaf when it comes to the issue of procrastination, and attributing Tafwīḍ, and Ghulū (extreme exaggeration) to them. Likewise, our “righteous Salaf” from Qom, and their refuting of al-Shaykh al-Mufīd,

Your nonsense have been resolved in many debates with Wahabists & Salafists in multiple threads which in similar fashion of you they have wrong interpretation from these narrations about cursing Zurara(رضي الله عنه) & other trustworthy companions of infallible Imams which in similar fashion of you , they have accused us to  Tafwīḍ, and Ghulū (extreme exaggeration) which likewise you although all of these issues have been resolved but due to your stubbornes & closed minded you have not accepted truth from us .

 

22 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

2- General designation: the descendants of the Prophet from his mentioned sons (Al-Hassan and Al-Hussein) who are the inheritors of scripture and are not infallible, because (35:32) pointed out that these chosen ones are three type:

- wrongdoers
- moderates,
- foremost in good deeds,

and these three types are describing the deeds (wrongdoing, moderating, being foremost in good deeds) and not mentioning the names, which is like the Imams from bany Isra’il who are not mentioned by their names but through gaining the descriptions as in the verse (33:24), and as Allah describes that He made the prophethood and scripture in the descendants of Ibrahim but some of them are guided and some are wrongdoers

you purposely have censored fourth group which they have kept their oath & they have been just which all of 12 infallible Imams are from this fourth group.

Quote

مِّنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ رِجَالٌ صَدَقُوا مَا عَاهَدُوا اللَّهَ عَلَيْهِ ۖ فَمِنْهُم مَّن قَضَىٰ نَحْبَهُ وَمِنْهُم مَّن يَنتَظِرُ ۖ وَمَا بَدَّلُوا تَبْدِيلًا ‎﴿٢٣﴾‏

 

Among the faithful are men who fulfill what they have pledged to Allah: there are some among them who have fulfilled their pledge, and some of them who still wait, and they have not changed in the least, (23)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/33:23

Accoding to many proofs from both of Sunni & shia sources & other similar fashion verses in holy Quran these people who have fulfilled their pledge with Allah  without any change intheir faith until their martyrdom are infallible Imams which 9 of them have been from desecendants of Imam Hussaein (عليه السلام) which according to this verse Imam Mahdi (aj) has still waited until now .

[Zaydism]

1 minute ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

your claim about not existance of two Imam at same time is wrong

You are clearly not reading what I am saying, I literally said how it would be illogical to say there can't be more than one Imam since the purpose of the Imam is to establish the Shariah, and there can be more than one Islamic government in different regions. For example al-Imam al-Hadi al-Hasani, and al-Imam al-Nasir al-Husayni. I am no longer going to respond to you, you have the freedom to be wrong brother. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

1 minute ago, Zaidism said:

You are clearly not reading what I am saying, I literally said how it would be illogical to say there can't be more than one Imam since the purpose of the Imam is to establish the Shariah, and there can be more than one Islamic government in different regions. For example al-Imam al-Hadi al-Hasani, and al-Imam al-Nasir al-Husayni. I am no longer going to respond to you, you have the freedom to be wrong brother. 

You can have the freedom to be wrong too brother because SC doesn't belong to anyone of us although you have tried to forcefully inject your ideas to others anyway your argument have been resovled that you degrade rule of any Imam to a low rank scholar & low rank governor instead of knowing that their rule is leading whole of world & it's people to highest ranking of mankined which infallible Imams are at peaks of this rank.

[Ashvazdanghe]

10 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Our position regarding the first three is quite simple, Imam Ali, Hasan, and Husyan did not curse them. Thus we don't curse them. They are wrong for advancing Imam Ali, but we don't do takfir on them because Imam Ali did not deem them to be Kuffar, if they were Kuffar then he would have been obligated to wage war against them, like he did with the tyrant Muawiyah. We place their affairs in the hands of Allah, and we focus on following the Ahl al-Bayt, and not worry about cursing. 

Allah has cursed Abukahab & enemies of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & infallible Imams which if you don't curse killer of Imam Ali (عليه السلام) & Imam Hasna (عليه السلام) & Imam Hussein (عليه السلام) how you can call yourself a Zaidi Shia because it's obvous which at least we have common ground with Zaidis  on cursingof their killers.

[Cool]

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

You see how our Zaydi Imam Ali b. Musa al-Rida mentions them collectively?

Unfortunately, these cannot be the words of Imam al-Rida (عليه السلام). It is what Zaidiyyah have fabricated clearly.

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Yes, they are collective proof over us.

Again, this is bid'ah i.e., "collective proof". Zaidiyyah have fabricated it, it is against the Quran & the Sunnah. 

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

when these honorable men from the sons of al-Hasan, and al-Husayn reach a consensus it is a binding proof over the creation

Do you really believe in this bid'ah, a fabricated principle?  Where is the nass of this principle? It was not there till Imam Hussain (عليه السلام), so what happened after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) that you were needed to develop a self contradictory principle for electing an Imam? While you don't have any right in "electing" an Imam given from the very beginning.

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

After Imam Husayn there is no particular fatimid that has a binding authority exclusively

This is again a big lie. I am surprised as to why a learned person like you being deceived by such lies? 

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

In terms of your appeal to ''amaan ahl al-ard & hujjatullahe ala khalqeh,'' etc. They are just words, you have no guidance, and you have no agreement whatsoever.

lol, it appears that you don't have any words to explain them. 

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

You guys can't agree on whether the Quran is corrupted or not, you can't agree on Usul,

We cannot disagree with the Quran and that's why we are very clear on Tehreef. It is not possible as long as there is a verse which categorically mentions و انا له لحافظون

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

This is what the school of the Ahl al-Bayt is about, it is fortified by its very core, decisive in its message, appealing to the heart, consistent with history, and the Quran. 

School of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام says that there are 12 Imams, first of them is Ali (عليه السلام) and last of them is Mehdi ajtf. 

School of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام says whosoever died ignorant to Imam of time, died the death of ignorance. 

School of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام mentions Imams as proof of Allah over creation and 

 امان اهل الارض من استيصال عذابه

This means clearly that they are the protected ones otherwise they would be worry some about their own safety. They are the مثل of ark of Noah, they are the راسخون في العلم and cannot be the ignorant who don't even know the ahkaam e shar'i. 

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The Imam is scripture, it is the Quran. Hence, the people will be called by their Imam, they will be raised by their scripture. 

What type of scripture Imam is? A Natiq one or Samit one? 

So scripture is ma'soom (protected one) but not the Imams? 

فما لكم كيف تحكمون 

[Ashvazdanghe]

3 hours ago, Zaidism said:

2- General designation: the descendants of the Prophet from his mentioned sons (Al-Hassan and Al-Hussein) who are the inheritors of scripture and are not infallible, because (35:32) pointed out that these chosen ones are three type:

- wrongdoers
- moderates,
- foremost in good deeds,

and these three types are describing the deeds (wrongdoing, moderating, being foremost in good deeds) and not mentioning the names, which is like the Imams from bany Isra’il who are not mentioned by their names but through gaining the descriptions as in the verse (33:24), and as Allah describes that He made the prophethood and scripture in the descendants of Ibrahim but some of them are guided and some are wrongdoers

~ Ibn Yahya

Salam According to this you put all of prophets after prophet Ibrahim (عليه السلام) in one of these three categories which according to you nauzubillah prophet Muhammad (pbu) has been a wrong doer so then it means you will be out of fold of Islam or mderate or formost ingood deeds which both of it means that all of prophets including prophet Muhammad (pbu) have done sins in their lifetime which in similar fashion it leads you to out of fold of Islam.

[Muslim2010]

20 hours ago, Allah Seeker said:

Brother just pray that you and I recognize the current, or upcoming, Imam. Your books or our books or their books alone won't help us. Only the true vision and being chosen to be in tune with the truth, when there is no visible Imam. I believe that is being 'good' people (as my mother told me) is what it's all about. In context to your close ones among your family and neighbors and friends. So let us not get heated and make people feel like we are on a crusade or mission, which I am guilty of the most in this website. 

Just used to take myself so damn seriously .. 

brother we have come across many heated discussions in last decade at Sc i remember some of them, but the essence of discussion was not neglecting the truth, evidence and logical conclusions despite disagreement. 

But now at Sc we have seen a rabbit is jumping over the pages of Sc to fill the posts as well as trying others to accept his jumps and foolish statements as truth. But nonsense matter can never be accepted as truth by the followers of imams from the purified progeny of the prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). I hope we both agree.

We are well aware a jumping rabbit always neglects the steady approach of the tortoise and a wiseman. Such a rabbit is mostly a loser at the end due to finished line crossing by the tortoise and a wiseman.

The words are just sufficient to describe what we are facing at such threads, and my view and other Sc members view may further be seen as a conclusion to the bunch of discussion on the topic and a speechless rabbit is also identified there in.

wasalam

Edited November 10, 2022 by Muslim2010

[VoidVortex]

9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Yes, they are collective proof over us. This is what we mean by the consensus of the Ahl al-Bayt, when these honorable men from the sons of al-Hasan, and al-Husayn reach a consensus it is a binding proof over the creation.

where is this principle derived from?

[VoidVortex]

9 hours ago, Zaidism said:

I literally said how it would be illogical to say there can't be more than one Imam since the purpose of the Imam is to establish the Shariah,

I think I disagree, this may be your definition, but for us an Imam is not only an establisher of sharia. I am happy to be corrected by more knowledgeable brothers

[Guest 12345]

13 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The source of designation is Allah, and the Prophet. When the Prophet departed there wouldn't be any more designating since he is the seal of the Prophets, and further revelation was complete.

Would you be able to explain how you came to that conclusion (not the end of prophethood, rather, the end of a divine designation – apart from prophethood, after prophethood)?

13 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Which means that the descendants [the progeny/family] of Ibrahim are the chosen ones in whom He the Almighty placed the:

- Prophethood
- The Book.

These descendants [of Ibrahim] are either prophets or holders of the scripture:

Allah mentions that there are prophets from Ibrahim descendants, and these kinds of chosen people are infallible because they are prophets:

Is this infallibility different from that of the named under the clock (peace be upon them all)?

13 hours ago, Zaidism said:

As for scripture this points to two types of chosen people, either the prophets that were sent with Holy books, or descendants that are not prophets but they are chosen as in verses (29:27) and (37:113)

“And We blessed him and Isaac, But among their descendants is the doer of good and the clearly unjust to himself ” (37:113).

“And We have already sent Noah and Abraham and placed in their descendants prophethood and scripture; and among them is he who is guided, but many of them are defiantly disobedient.” (57:26)

Allah has pointed out that these chosen descendants can be either doers of good, or unjust to themselves as mentioned in verses (57:26) and (37:113), and there are chosen people for the scripture as in this verse:

‎“ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا الْكِتَابَ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا ۖ

“Then we caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself, and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allah. That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty.” (35:32)

Would you be able to help reconcile the above verses with the last line in the verse (1:124) below?

13 hours ago, Zaidism said:

“And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham was tried by his Lord with commands and he fulfilled them. [Allah] said, "Indeed, I will make you a leader for the people." [Abraham] said, "And of my descendants?" [Allah] said, "My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.”(1:124)

---

13 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Therefore, designation can either be through

1- infallible individuals: who are mentioned by their names as prophets or Imams like (Ali, Al-Hassan and Al-Hussein), because of being mentioned by their names in narrations explaining the verses (3:61) and (33:33),

2- fallible groups like:

bani Israi’l which Allah preferred them and chose among them Imams that are not named but known by their deeds as in verse (33:24)

When referencing 33:24 of the Quran, you mentioned that “…Allah preferred them and chose among them Imams that are not named but known by their deeds as in verse”, which seems to imply that Allah (the most glorified, the most high) is still doing the choosing.

“Your Lord creates and chooses whatever He wills—the choice is not theirs. Glorified and Exalted is Allah above what they associate ˹with Him˺!” (28:68)

13 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Descendants of Ibrahim and Mohammed –pbuth- as in the verse:

“Then we caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself, and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allah. That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty.” (35:32)

When Zaydis say that the narration of Thaqalayn refers to the Quranic standard of the continuation of the descendants of Ibrahim and Muhammad (pbut)

Applying this as

1- particular designation: Ali, Al-Hassan and Al-Hussein –(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)- as infallible according to the proofs from Quran and Narration as mentioned above.

2- General designation: the descendants of the Prophet from his mentioned sons (Al-Hassan and Al-Hussein) who are the inheritors of scripture and are not infallible, because (35:32) pointed out that these chosen ones are three type:

- wrongdoers
- moderates,
- foremost in good deeds,

and these three types are describing the deeds (wrongdoing, moderating, being foremost in good deeds) and not mentioning the names, which is like the Imams from bany Isra’il who are not mentioned by their names but through gaining the descriptions as in the verse (33:24), and as Allah describes that He made the prophethood and scripture in the descendants of Ibrahim but some of them are guided and some are wrongdoers

~ Ibn Yahya

I guess my issue of contention is that the designation process was exclusive to Allah (the most glorified, the most high), but then changed to a consensus after the last of the named, which seems to against the sunnah of Allah (the most glorified, the most high) (33:62).

13 hours ago, Zaidism said:

As Allah says in (33:62):

“A consistent practice of Allah in the matter of those who have gone before. And you will never find a change in Allah’s consistent practice.”

[Zaydism]

3 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

where is this principle derived from?

Essentially, the Zaydi epistemology is the decisive of the Quran, Aql, Tawattur from Sunnah, and the consensus which is a truth preserving means that relates the positions of the members of the cloak - per hadith thaqalayn tying guidance with the progeny of the Prophet. 

3 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

I think I disagree, this may be your definition, but for us an Imam is not only an establisher of sharia. I am happy to be corrected by more knowledgeable brothers

I appreciate your thoughtful questions brother, and the way you phrase them in a respectful manner. May Allah bless you! 

Sure, so by saying “not only” you agree that - as the Salaf of the Imamiya agreed - the imam is an establisher of the rule of Allah. Therefore, you agree he is not fulfilling his role, and that when you take this into mind, he is neglecting his role towards the book of Allah where Allah is saying to all Muslims: Establish the Zakat, go to the Friday prayer, administer the Hudud, etc. These are all pointless God-forbid for over a thousand years, we might as well just remained christians since it’s only ritual that changed. This is truly a blasphemy against Allah. 

If you say the imam has other roles, then the more roles you add the worse it gets! Because he isn’t fulfilling anything, he doesn’t guide, he doesn’t teach, he doesn’t clarify.

He won’t even tell you which methodology is the correct one to follow, is that Akhbari methodology that leads you to believing the Quran is corrupt, or the Usuli methodology? Moreover, among the Usulis there are differences, and likewise among the Akhbaris.

The more responsibilities you posit for the Imam, the more you refute this concept. It is crystal clear, in fact it is so clear that nobody has dared to challenge me on my refutation of Shaykh al-Mufid.

Message your scholars, and your polemicists tell them to come and refute me. I am not hiding behind anything save evidence, and reason. If they are afraid to come and reveal their identity they can comment as anonymous guests here and respond to me. 

I promise you, the occultation is something that cannot be defended and it is impossible to defend. Let alone the other examples I have demonstrated regarding the absolute contradictory claims for Imama. 

Interestingly, they have a lot to say between themselves. Yet, none will come and challenge the Zaydiyya openly; they won’t dare challenge these proofs, and this is because when truth is hurled against falsehood it evaporates. 

[Muslim2010]

28 minutes ago, Zaidism said:

Interestingly, they have a lot to say between themselves. Yet, none will come and challenge the Zaydiyya openly; they won’t dare challenge these proofs, and this is because when truth is hurled against falsehood it evaporates. 

Already refuted are such false and baseless claims:

 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Muslim2010

[IbnHasan14]

On 11/7/2022 at 9:21 AM, Cool said:

As for your very first claim that Zurarah was unaware of his Imam, I would like to present few ahadith for you to examine them:

 حدثنا احمد بن زياد بن جعفر الهمداني قال: حدثنا علي بن إبراهيم بن هاشم قال: حدثني محمد بن عيسى بن عبيد، عن إبراهيم بن محمد الهمداني قال: قلت للرضا (عليه السلام) يا ابن رسول الله اخبرني عن زرارة هل كان يعرف حق أبيك فقال: نعم، فقلت له: فلم بعث ابنه عبيداً ليتعرف الخبر إلى من أوصى الصادق جعفر بن محمد (عليهما السلام)؟
فقال (عليه السلام): ان زرارة كان يعرف أمر أبي ونص أبيه عليه وإنما بعث ابنه ليتعرف من أبي هل يجوز له ان يرفع التقية في إظهار أمره ونص أبيه عليه وانه لما أبطأ عنه ابنه طولب بإظهار قول في أبي فلم يحب ان يقدم على ذلك دون أمره فرفع المصحف وقال: اللهم ان إمامي من اثبت هذا المصحف إمامته من ولد جعفر بن محمد (عليهما السلام).

The report that the Zaydis argued does not include that Zurara did not know the Imamate of Musa bin Jaafar (peace be upon them), but rather that he sent his son as slaves to ask about the report.

حدثنا أبي قال: حدثنا محمد بن يحيى العطار، عن محمد بن احمد بن يحيى بن عمران الأشعري، عن احمد بن هلال، عن محمد بن عبد الله بن زرارة، عن أبيه قال: لما بعث زرارة عبيدا ابنه إلى المدينة ليسأل عن الخبر بعد مضي أبي عبد الله فلما اشتد به الأمر اخذ المصحف وقال من اثبت إمامته هذا المصحف فهو إمامي.

This narration does not necessitate that he was not known. Another point is the fact that Ahmed bin Hilal in this report, is not trustworthy according to our Sheikhs of ilm ul-rijaal. 

روى الصدوق أيضاً عن محمد بن الحسن بن احمد بن الوليد 2 قال سمعت سعد بن عبد الله 3 يقول ما رأينا ولا سمعنا بمتشيع رجع عن التشيع إلى النصب إلا احمد بن هلال وكانوا يقولون ما تفرد بروايته احمد بن هلال فلا يجوز استعماله».

So I think the very first point which I have considered as a foundation of your alleged refutation, is dismantled. 

Now allow me some time, I will try to get back to your 2nd point In-Sha Allah.

Wassalam!! 

Salam insha'Allah you're doing well

 

The summarised argument of the Zaydiyya is that the Twelver understanding of Imamate is a very hidden, occult and concealed matter, in fact it is so concealed that according to the narrative, the sons, brothers, uncles, nephews and the cousins of the noble Imams did not know about this doctrinal and salvational matter of Imamate!  

So, the point is, let's put the general Muslims under Umayyad and Abbasid rule aside, how can the own sons of RasulAllah, Fatima al-Zahra, and Imam Ali not know such an important aspect of religion? Ultimately, the Imam in Twelverism is the Divinely designated, infallible who is sent by God to preserve the true religion and guide mankind, yet their own blood relatives and their own Shi'a have no clue about it. So, how can they guide the people when they are in taqiyya or in ocultation?

Can you imagine, giants and noblemen from the Ahlulbayt such as Zayd b. Ali, Muhammad b Abdullah al Nafs al Zakiyya, Hussain b. Ali Sahib Fakhkh, al-Qassim al-Rassi and Hasan b. Ali al-Nasir al-Utrush had no clue about the Divine designation and Wilayat about the Imams after Aba Abdillah al-Hussain. The mentioned Alids are the noblest of men, they were the Itra the Prophet was talking about in Hadith al-Thaqalayn, these Imams were the transmitters of the true religion and they did not lie about the truth despite the calamities and massacres they went through.

Also, bare in mind that the Zaydis believe that Imams Ali, al-Hasan and al-Huseyn are Divinely designated Imams, but after these three, the Imamate belongs to the Fatimid Alid, who is just, knowledgable, brave, generous, intelligent and wise. The Imam who fulfils the criteria through earned qualities is obliged to openly call the people towards himself. Thus, the rightful Imam of Ahlulbayt does not allow the people to fall into misguidance, he tries his best to enjoin good and forbid evil, and even revolt against oppressors to establish justice on earth.

So, our issue with the Twelver narrative is the occultism and taqiyya, we do not accept the idea of Divinely designated Imams who lie about the truth (their Imamate) that leads to guidance and salvation. Instead, we say that the great Alids, such as Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq, the beacon of light was free from this narrative. in reality, these were lies attributed to these great Imams, similar to how the Ghulat attributes claims such as the Imams of Ahlulbayt claim to be Divine etc

 

Abu al-Hasan 

 

Ws

[Zaydism]

8 hours ago, Guest 12345 said:

Would you be able to explain how you came to that conclusion (not the end of prophethood, rather, the end of a divine designation – apart from prophethood, after prophethood)?

The sources of legislation are the Quran, and Sunnah. Furthermore, Allah says: {This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.” [Quran 5:3].

To say there is further revelation needed is to go against the Quran, this is why twelverism is so non-sequitur, and inconsistent. You can't pose any Imam after Imam Husayn because the Prophet was not there to designate anyone else. I have demonstrated how the Prophet clearly didn't designate any 12 Imams by name, or number. Otherwise, we wouldn't have 100+ Shia sects that stopped before 12, nobody bringing up the 12 until after the occultation, and the 'close companions' not knowing who the Imam was after each Imam. Thereafter, I added the cherry on top which is the occultation, and the only question left is why are you even a Twelver? 

8 hours ago, Guest 12345 said:

Is this infallibility different from that of the named under the clock (peace be upon them all)?

Exactly, the people of cloak have distinct infallibility in the sense that each person is a binding proof/authority. We don't believe they control the wind, have knowledge of the unseen, and can't commit simple mistakes, etc. They are the doors to the unadulterated Sunnah, as the Sunnah was the Shia were severely oppressed. You can't favor Imam Ali over Uthman without getting weakened, and having your hadith rejected. The lovers of Imam Ali would literally have their skins torn, suffer immense torture, and they would have their achilles slit if they don't curse the Prince of the Believers! 

Ibn Hajar mentions that the Nawasib would oft be accepted in hadith, and the Shia would always be weakened, and rejected. We need a source which preserves the teachings of Imam Ali, and the clearest source is the community of the progeny of the Prophet each inheriting the fundamental creed of Imam Ali who is the gate to the Prophets knowledge, and the vicegerent of the Messenger of Allah. 

The tyrant Muawiyah instilled this demonic Sunnah of enmity towards Ahl al-Bayt, cursing Imam Ali, and oppressing the Shia. The only way to arrive at truth is to find it through the community of the learned from the progeny, this is why we emphasize the consensus of the Ahl al-Bayt, we had Imam Qasim a Hasani, and Imam Ali al-Rida, a Husayni living in separate regions. Yet, they were unified on creed. We can get really deep into this history, and we can address this from a plethora of angles. 

8 hours ago, Guest 12345 said:

When referencing 33:24 of the Quran, you mentioned that “…Allah preferred them and chose among them Imams that are not named but known by their deeds as in verse”, which seems to imply that Allah (the most glorified, the most high) is still doing the choosing.

“Your Lord creates and chooses whatever He wills—the choice is not theirs. Glorified and Exalted is Allah above what they associate ˹with Him˺!” (28:68)

The choice was complete after the word settled in the progeny of Muhammad, the inheritors of Ibrahim. 

Then we caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself, and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allah . That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty. [35:32].

If you refer to Mizan, it mentions that this refers to the progeny of the Prophet. Moreover, authentic narrations from Imam Sadiq, and Imam Ridha also support this interpretation by saying it refers to the progeny of the Prophet. 

8 hours ago, Guest 12345 said:

I guess my issue of contention is that the designation process was exclusive to Allah (the most glorified, the most high), but then changed to a consensus after the last of the named, which seems to against the sunnah of Allah (the most glorified, the most high) (33:62).

No, because Allah chose Bani Isra'il, so we are consistent, and Twelvers are not:

And We had certainly given Moses guidance, and We caused the Children of Israel to inherit the Scripture [40:53].

What community inherited after Bani Isra'il?

Then we caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself, and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allah . That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty. [35:32].

Just like there was: {And among the people of Moses is a community which guides by truth and by it establishes justice} [7:159]. There is such among the community of Muhammad, his collective progeny from the sons of al-Hasan, and al-Husayn.

You cannot say it was only Prophets from Bani Isra'il who inherited scripture, because: 

{And We conveyed to the Children of Israel in the Scripture that, "You will surely cause corruption on the earth twice, and you will surely reach [a degree of] great haughtiness} [17:4]. 

{O Children of Israel, remember My favor that I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds} [2:47]. 

So, tell me brother, how did it shift from particular designation, and general designation to just particular in the Quran?

[Guest 12345]

18 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The sources of legislation are the Quran, and Sunnah. Furthermore, Allah says: {This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.” [Quran 5:3].

To say there is further revelation needed is to go against the Quran, this is why twelverism is so non-sequitur, and inconsistent.

I think you might have misunderstood my question. I didn’t mention that revelation continued after the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), that isn’t a belief held by Twelvers.

Rather, I was implying that after the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Allah (عز وجل) was still involved in the designation process. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have a claim that the other four under the clock (عليهم السلام) having a binding authority over us.

19 hours ago, Zaidism said:

You can't pose any Imam after Imam Husayn because the Prophet was not there to designate anyone else.

Can’t the same can be said about your elected Imams?

If the religion of Islam was complete, then shouldn’t there have been an example of an Imam designated by consensus during the Prophet’s (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) time?

Unless, the religion was complete but not fully expanded upon, then the burden of proof falls on you to prove that the designation process shifted from the divine to a consensus, with subjective traits/qualities, among the people - and a further clarification of the qualities of the body (of people) composing the consensus, iff required.

19 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Thereafter, I added the cherry on top which is the occultation, and the only question left is why are you even a Twelver? 

I have no issues with the occultation conceptually. I’d like it to end, but even if I switched sides, I’d still be in a similar situation, as you have your own issues with a lack of divinely appointed leader(s).

19 hours ago, Zaidism said:

Exactly, the people of cloak have distinct infallibility in the sense that each person is a binding proof/authority. We don't believe they control the wind, have knowledge of the unseen, and can't commit simple mistakes, etc. They are the doors to the unadulterated Sunnah, as the Sunnah was the Shia were severely oppressed.

Does this infallibility for the Imams' (عليهم السلام) differ from that of the Prophets' (عليهم السلام)? If so, would you be able to give a bit of information on the difference?

You also mentioned the Sunnah of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), would that typically involve the mannerism and actions - aside from verbal edicts?

I am asking this because, if the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was forgetful and capable of small sins, and we’re to take his example (edicts, action and mannerisms), wouldn’t that (issues) proliferate throughout the Ummah?

It doesn’t make sense, to me at least or an objective laymen, that one is to take absolute overarching orders from someone (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who has (at least Sunni’s believe it to be true) committed prior mistakes and sins?

19 hours ago, Zaidism said:

No, because Allah chose Bani Isra'il, so we are consistent, and Twelvers are not:

And We had certainly given Moses guidance, and We caused the Children of Israel to inherit the Scripture [40:53].

What community inherited after Bani Isra'il?

Then we caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself, and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allah . That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty. [35:32].

Just like there was: {And among the people of Moses is a community which guides by truth and by it establishes justice} [7:159]. There is such among the community of Muhammad, his collective progeny from the sons of al-Hasan, and al-Husayn.

You cannot say it was only Prophets from Bani Isra'il who inherited scripture, because: 

{And We conveyed to the Children of Israel in the Scripture that, "You will surely cause corruption on the earth twice, and you will surely reach [a degree of] great haughtiness} [17:4]. 

{O Children of Israel, remember My favor that I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds} [2:47].

The verses you mentioned don’t seem to suggest, to me at least, a designation (or a process of designation) of a leader (at least the parts that you highlighted), rather a favoring of a nation and then rebuking said nation. Furthermore, a designation of a whole doesn’t necessarily have to apply to its parts.

Are you making the claim the those favored are able to choose a leader among themselves? If so, do you have any evidence of such a situation arising?

19 hours ago, Zaidism said:

So, tell me brother, how did it shift from particular designation, and general designation to just particular in the Quran?

If what you claim is true, who decided on the designation in those instances?

As mentioned above, please provide proof of other than Allah (عز وجل) designating a leader for the people or Allah (عز وجل) approving a designation made by the people.

[Cool]

On 11/11/2022 at 5:12 AM, IbnHasan14 said:

bare in mind that the Zaydis believe that Imams Ali, al-Hasan and al-Huseyn are Divinely designated Imams, but after these three, the Imamate belongs to the Fatimid Alid, who is just, knowledgable, brave, generous, intelligent and wise.

This itself is the matter where I have pointed in my post. Showed contradiction in what you believe and what your books are saying. 

Please provide any nass for your belief that:

1. the sunnah of nominating the successor would change after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)

2. Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) had not right to appoint his successor after him.

3. There will arrive a time where people don't have any Imam to follow & obey. While your own books mentions the hadith:

من مات و لم يعرف الامام مات ميتة جاهلية

4. The Imams after Hussain (عليه السلام) will not be ma'soom (protected ones) while your own books contain the hadith mentioning Imams as:

حجة الله على خلقه و امان اهل الارض من استيصال عذابه

5. The Imamate will divide into two groups. One group would become your Imams of knowledge who would not rise with sword and a group would be Imams of obedience (ulil amr) who would rise with sword. 

On 11/11/2022 at 5:12 AM, IbnHasan14 said:

the Imam in Twelverism is the Divinely designated, infallible who is sent by God to preserve the true religion and guide mankind

We have discussed these point several times. Imamate is a divine covenant as per 2:124, therefore it must be divinely designated. The divine covenant of Imamate would not reach to unjust as per 2:124, therefore Imam must be the bearer if ismah. Imam guide as per the divine command as per 32:24, therefore if God allow him to go in occultation, your point becomes meaningless. 

On 11/11/2022 at 5:12 AM, IbnHasan14 said:

yet their own blood relatives and their own Shi'a have no clue about it.

This statement can be dismissed straight away by showing you that a vast majority of Shias knew their Imams in their life times and even now, we believe in twelve Imams, the ones who according to your books, either martyred with sword or either by poison. How many of your Imams died a natural death? 

[Cool]

15 minutes ago, Cool said:

Imam guide as per the divine command as per 32:24,

The بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ in this verse is a phrase which is sufficient to refute Zaidiyyah beliefs. Even the often quoted verse by them contains this phrase & pointing towards ma'soom Imams عليهم السلام

ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا الْكِتَابَ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌ لِّنَفْسِهِ وَمِنْهُم مُّقْتَصِدٌ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌ بِالْخَيْرَاتِ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ هُوَ الْفَضْلُ الْكَبِيرُ

35:32 

Even the "sabqat" in goodness is done by the اذن الله by the ones mentioned as "sabiqun bil khayraat" here. 

[Guest 12345]

On 11/10/2022 at 7:45 PM, Zaidism said:

The sources of legislation are the Quran, and Sunnah. Furthermore, Allah says: {This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.” [Quran 5:3].

To say there is further revelation needed is to go against the Quran, this is why twelverism is so non-sequitur, and inconsistent.

I think you might have misunderstood my question. I didn’t mention that revelation continued after the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), that isn’t a belief held by Twelvers.

Rather, I was implying that after the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Allah (عز وجل) was still involved in the designation process. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have a claim that the other four under the clock (عليهم السلام) having a binding authority over us.

On 11/10/2022 at 7:45 PM, Zaidism said:

You can't pose any Imam after Imam Husayn because the Prophet was not there to designate anyone else.

Can’t the same can be said about your elected Imams?

If the religion of Islam was complete, then shouldn’t there have been an example of an Imam designated by consensus during the Prophet’s (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) time?

Unless, the religion was complete but not fully expanded upon, then the burden of proof falls on you to prove that the designation process shifted from the divine to a consensus, with subjective traits/qualities, among the people - and a further clarification of the qualities of the body (of people) composing the consensus, iff required.

On 11/10/2022 at 7:45 PM, Zaidism said:

Thereafter, I added the cherry on top which is the occultation, and the only question left is why are you even a Twelver? 

I have no issues with the occultation conceptually. I’d like it to end, but even if I switched sides, I’d still be in a similar situation, as you have your own issues with a lack of divinely appointed leader(s).

On 11/10/2022 at 7:45 PM, Zaidism said:

Exactly, the people of cloak have distinct infallibility in the sense that each person is a binding proof/authority. We don't believe they control the wind, have knowledge of the unseen, and can't commit simple mistakes, etc. They are the doors to the unadulterated Sunnah, as the Sunnah was the Shia were severely oppressed.

Does this infallibility for the Imams' (عليهم السلام) differ from that of the Prophets' (عليهم السلام)? If so, would you be able to give a bit of information on the difference?

You also mentioned the Sunnah of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), would that typically involve the mannerism and actions - aside from verbal edicts?

I am asking this because, if the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was forgetful and capable of small sins, and we’re to take his example (edicts, action and mannerisms), wouldn’t that (issues) proliferate throughout the Ummah?

It doesn’t make sense, to me at least or an objective laymen, that one is to take absolute overarching orders from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) or someone who has (at least Sunni’s believe it to be true) committed prior mistakes and sins?

On 11/10/2022 at 7:45 PM, Zaidism said:

No, because Allah chose Bani Isra'il, so we are consistent, and Twelvers are not:

And We had certainly given Moses guidance, and We caused the Children of Israel to inherit the Scripture [40:53].

What community inherited after Bani Isra'il?

Then we caused to inherit the Book those We have chosen of Our servants; and among them is he who wrongs himself, and among them is he who is moderate, and among them is he who is foremost in good deeds by permission of Allah . That [inheritance] is what is the great bounty. [35:32].

Just like there was: {And among the people of Moses is a community which guides by truth and by it establishes justice} [7:159]. There is such among the community of Muhammad, his collective progeny from the sons of al-Hasan, and al-Husayn.

You cannot say it was only Prophets from Bani Isra'il who inherited scripture, because: 

{And We conveyed to the Children of Israel in the Scripture that, "You will surely cause corruption on the earth twice, and you will surely reach [a degree of] great haughtiness} [17:4]. 

{O Children of Israel, remember My favor that I have bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds} [2:47]. 

The verses you mentioned don’t seem to suggest, to me at least, a designation (or a process of designation) of a leader (at least the parts that you highlighted), rather a favoring of a nation and then rebuking said nation. Furthermore, a designation of a whole doesn’t necessarily have to apply to its parts.

Are you making the claim that the those favored are able to choose a leader among themselves? If so, do you have any evidence of such a situation arising?

On 11/10/2022 at 7:45 PM, Zaidism said:

So, tell me brother, how did it shift from particular designation, and general designation to just particular in the Quran?

If what you claim is true, who decided on the designation in those instances?

As mentioned above, please provide proof of other than Allah (عز وجل) designating a leader for the people or Allah (عز وجل) approving a designation made by the people.

[Zaydism]

On 11/11/2022 at 2:02 PM, Guest 12345 said:

Rather, I was implying that after the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), Allah (عز وجل) was still involved in the designation process. Otherwise, you wouldn’t have a claim that the other four under the clock (عليهم السلام) having a binding authority over us.

Could you clarify this point? Allāh being involved is juxtaposed with the Prophet. When you say after the Prophet, it seems to entail after his death. Otherwise, the medium of designation is through the Quran, and Sunnah. 

I don’t see how your other point follows, we claim they have a binding authority due to Ghadir, Thaqalayn, Kisa, etc. You can’t just make claims without substantiating them, and even still your claims are inconsistent. 
 

On 11/11/2022 at 2:02 PM, Guest 12345 said:

Can’t the same can be said about your elected Imams?

I just want to point out how this thread which is dedicated to refuting the occultation has turned into a discussion over Zaydi Imama, even if Zaydism is false the arguments I pose are untouched. 
 

On 11/11/2022 at 2:02 PM, Guest 12345 said:

If the religion of Islam was complete, then shouldn’t there have been an example of an Imam designated by consensus during the Prophet’s (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) time?

The only Imams who hold binding authority are the 3 members of the cloak, you are presuming that any other Zaydi imam has the same authority, that is incorrect. A Zaydi Imam is there to rule by the Quran, Sunnah, and Seerah of Imam Ali, Hasan, and Husayn. 
 

On 11/11/2022 at 2:02 PM, Guest 12345 said:

Unless, the religion was complete but not fully expanded upon, then the burden of proof falls on you to prove that the designation process shifted from the divine to a consensus, with subjective traits/qualities, among the people - and a further clarification of the qualities of the body (of people) composing the consensus, iff required.

It never shifted from the divine, since the decree was to cling onto the Ahl al-Bayt, the purpose of the consensus is truth preserving, it leads you to the views of Imam Ali, as there cannot be an incorrect Tawattur between the sons of al-Hasan, and al-Husayn regarding the theology of their father. 

You are confusing us with the Sunnis, I am making a distinction from divine designation of a particular individual, and of a community. Your contention about designation being only divine doesn’t apply to us, as the divine has caused the inheritance of the Book to be with the family of the Prophet. 

You mention subjective traits/qualities, each trait/quality follows necessarily from the Quran, and Sunnah. You are free to mention what you consider to be subjective, and I will seek to demonstrate how it is objective, and follows by necessity. 

On 11/11/2022 at 2:02 PM, Guest 12345 said:

you have your own issues with a lack of divinely appointed leader(s).

How is it an issue, you are just throwing claims without demonstration. We have guidance that is preserved, and the Imam is to implement it. The purpose of a Zaydi imam is to rule by the Book, Sunnah, and them Seerah of Ahl al-Kisa. That is it, this is something that is basic, clear, and necessary for Islam.  
 

On 11/11/2022 at 2:02 PM, Guest 12345 said:

Does this infallibility for the Imams' (عليهم السلام) differ from that of the Prophets' (عليهم السلام)? If so, would you be able to give a bit of information on the difference?

There is no difference, Prophets in the Quran also made mistakes. They are free from committing major sins, and the Prophets have the addition that they are guided by revelation. No Imam receives revelation. Of course, I am referring to the 3 Imams.
 

On 11/11/2022 at 2:02 PM, Guest 12345 said:

You also mentioned the Sunnah of the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), would that typically involve the mannerism and actions - aside from verbal edicts?

I am asking this because, if the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) was forgetful and capable of small sins, and we’re to take his example (edicts, action and mannerisms), wouldn’t that (issues) proliferate throughout the Ummah?

It doesn’t make sense, to me at least or an objective laymen, that one is to take absolute overarching orders from someone (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) who has (at least Sunni’s believe it to be true) committed prior mistakes and sins?

The Prophet was an infallible, he did not commit mistakes deliberately, especially sins - God forbid - rather it is as the Quran has it. For instance, when dividing the spoils of war, or choosing to appease some of his wives, Allah corrects him. Therefore, the Sunnah of the Prophet be it through action, or verbal edict is binding, and free from mistake. Thus, there is no such problem as for some Sunnis - not all - as I believe there are those who hold to this as well, so it’s not fair to put sunnis under one category. 

On 11/11/2022 at 2:02 PM, Guest 12345 said:

The verses you mentioned don’t seem to suggest, to me at least, a designation (or a process of designation) of a leader (at least the parts that you highlighted), rather a favoring of a nation and then rebuking said nation. Furthermore, a designation of a whole doesn’t necessarily have to apply to its parts.

Are you making the claim the those favored are able to choose a leader among themselves? If so, do you have any evidence of such a situation arising?

It highlights that Allah chooses a community - even while having those who are unjust within it - to inherit the scripture, and be guardians of the scripture. This is to be read in lieu of Thaqalayn which shows that the Ahl al-Bayt as a community, and the Quran are inseparable. The Imam from the Ahl al-Bayt is one who has the qualities of leadership, rules by the Seerah of Ahl al-Kisa, and is foremost in rising to this.

On 11/11/2022 at 2:02 PM, Guest 12345 said:

other than Allah (عز وجل) designating a leader for the people or Allah (عز وجل) approving a designation made by the people.

The proof is that Imama is necessary, and the axioms to rule by said Imama - as listed are also necessary - if a member of the Ahl al-Bayt rises with these qualities, then they will rule the people. Allah has accepted the prayer of Ibrahim that Imama is to be in his progeny. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

2 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The Prophet was an infallible, he did not commit mistakes deliberately, especially sins - God forbid - rather it is as the Quran has it. For instance, when dividing the spoils of war, or choosing to appease some of his wives, Allah corrects him. Therefore, the Sunnah of the Prophet be it through action, or verbal edict is binding, and free from mistake. Thus, there is no such problem as for some Sunnis - not all - as I believe there are those who hold to this as well, so it’s not fair to put sunnis under one category. 

Salam according to some sunnis likewise Wahbists & Salafists prophet wanted to commit suicide or he has bewitched in degree that he has lost his mind which these examples shows that Sunni definition from prophet is wrong which his personality has  been misinterpreted by Sunnis  in similar fashion your story about hs mistake in dividing the spoils of war is just an accusation by his enemies which if you believe to it so then you believe that prophet has been unjust so there he has not qualification for being a prophet which if anyone believes that prophet has been unjust so then is put of fold of Islam in similar fashion your belief about commiting mistakes by other prophets is not acceptable so therefore we don't accept making mistake about prophet Muhammad (pbu) & other prophets brcause it's an acusation aagaainst them about being unjust .

[Ashvazdanghe]

4 hours ago, Zaidism said:

The only Imams who hold binding authority are the 3 members of the cloak, you are presuming that any other Zaydi imam has the same authority, that is incorrect. A Zaydi Imam is there to rule by the Quran, Sunnah, and Seerah of Imam Ali, Hasan, and Husayn. 

Slam all of 9 infallible Imams have been there to rule " rule by the Quran, Sunnah, and Seerah of Imam Ali, Hasan, and Husayn. " which it has been proved through holy Quran & Sunni & shia narrations but on the other hand your claim about Zaydi Imams have not been proven which non of Zaydi Imams have calimed it too.

[Ashvazdanghe]

correction :9 infallible Imams from descendants of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام).

[Ashvazdanghe]

7 hours ago, Zaidism said:

For instance, when dividing the spoils of war, or choosing to appease some of his wives, Allah corrects him.

Salam this is a fake story by too weak documentation which in rela story prophet muhammad (pub) after finishing of battle of Hunayn has given more share of  booty of war to new muslims likewise Abusufyan too keep them between muslims because Abusufyan & noblemen of Quraysh and Arabs have been greedy for booty of war which giving more share of it has been for softening their heart "لْمُؤَلَّفَةِ قُلُوبُهُمْ" about Islam.

The shares of the booties

When the Prophet (s) was allotting the booties of the battle, he first gave the noblemen of Quraysh and the tribes of Arab their shares in order to make them more inclined to Islam. He then gave 100 camels to some people, such as Abu Sufyan b. Harb, and gave 40 or 50 to some others. He then had people and booties counted, giving each person a certain share of the booties. When the Prophet (s) gave a remarkable share to the noblemen of Quraysh and Arabs, some people from Ansar objected to him. The Prophet (s) gave a speech to them, convincing them about his decision, and praying for them.^[45]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Battle_of_Hunayn

Dividing booty of between women

It should be said that this hadith, in addition to the weakness of the document, also has textual anxiety. Some reports have considered the birth of Sahlah in the battle of Khyber and others in the battle of Hunain. If Sahlah was born in the war of Hunain, then the hadith can be considered as the softening of the hearts.

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Ibn Qudamah, a famous Hanbali and Sunni jurist ( 620 AD) says about the first hadith[7]: The narrator himself narrates that the Prophet of Allah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) gave the women from the fruits of Khaybar and not from the spoils of war , shows that the benefit of the women who helped was not the same as the share of the warriors in the field, but it was a gift that increased and decreased according to the form and amount of the women's services, which is called «رضخ» in jurisprudence. . Ibn Qudama also considers it possible that the meaning of the hadith is the equal share of women and men from the fruits and not all the spoils of Khaybar. [8] The latter possibility is confirmed by the following phrase of Ibn Kathir's report of the same incident.[9]

Sahlah's narration[10] also says: The Prophet of Allah ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) immediately after his birth assigned a portion for him and gave it to his mother. Therefore, it is slightly different from our problem; But it is possible to accept Ibn Qudama's explanation here that what is meant by the share is the gift of the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) and not a share of the booty, which was equal to the share of the warriors.

It should be said that this hadith, in addition to the weakness of the document, also has textual anxiety. Some reports have considered the birth of Sahlah in the battle of Khyber and others in the battle of Hunain. If Sahlah was born in the war of Hunain, then the hadith can be considered as the softening of the hearts.

http://hadith.net/post/54230/سهم-زنان-از-غنيمت-جنگ/

 

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Narrated `Abdullah bin Zaid bin `Asim:

When Allah gave to His Apostle the war booty on the day of Hunain, he distributed that booty amongst those whose hearts have been (recently) reconciled (to Islam), but did not give anything to the Ansar. So they seemed to have felt angry and sad as they did not get the same as other people had got. The Prophet (ﷺ) then delivered a sermon before them, saying, "O, the assembly of Ansar! Didn't I find you astray, and then Allah guided you on the Right Path through me? You were divided into groups, and Allah brought you together through me; you were poor and Allah made you rich through me." Whatever the Prophet (ﷺ) said , they (i.e. the Ansar) said, "Allah and his Apostle have more favours to do." The Prophet (ﷺ) said, "What stops you from answering the Messenger of Allah?" But whatever he said to them, they replied, "Allah and His Apostle have more favours to do." The Prophet (ﷺ) then said, "If you wish you could say: 'You came to us in such-and-such state (at Medina).' Wouldn't you be willing to see the people go away with sheep and camels while you go with the Prophet (ﷺ) to your homes? But for the migration, I would have been one of the Ansar, and if the people took their way through a valley or mountain pass, I would select the valley or mountain pass of the Ansar. The Ansar are Shiar (i.e. those clothes which are in direct contact with the body and worn inside the other garments), and the people are Dithar (i.e. those clothes which are not in direct contact with the body and are worn over other garments). No doubt, you will see other people favoured over you, so you should be patient till you meet me at the Tank (of Kauthar).

Reference	: Sahih al-Bukhari 4330
In-book reference	: Book 64, Hadith 359 https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4330

It is here that the ulterior motives of the biased orientalists become evident, because they describe the battles of Islam as plundering, but shut their eyes from their spiritual aims, as this type of discipline cannot be expected from a plundering group. It is not possible for the leader of a plundering community to treat honesty as the sign of faith and to train his soldiers in such a manner that he should be able to restrain them from taking even a shoe-lace from the public property.

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War Booty Is Divided

After the conquest of the enemy forts, and general disarmament and collection of the booty, the Prophet ordered the entire booty to be brought at a particular place. As directed by the Prophet a man proclaimed loudly amongst the soldiers of Islam: "It is incumbent upon every Muslim to return to the public treasury whatever booty has come into his hands even though it may be a thread and a needle, because breach of trust is a matter of shame and will prove to be a fire for his soul on the Day of Judgement".

The real leaders of Islam have been very strict in the matter of trusteeship; so much so that they have considered the return of deposits to be one of the signs of faith, and breach of trust to be one of the signs of hypocrisy.34

Hence, when stolen property was found in the property left behind by a soldier the Prophet did not offer his funeral prayers. The details of this incident are as follows:

On the day of departure from Khayber an unexpected arrow hit a slave who was responsible for fastening the camel-litters for the Prophet and he died instantly. Persons appointed for the purpose made investigations but no result was achieved. All said: "May he be blessed with Paradise".

However, the Prophet said: "I don't concur with you in the matter, because the cloak on his body is a part of war booty and he committed a breach of trust, and it will encircle him in the shape of fire on the Day of Judgement" In the meantime one of the companions of the Prophet said: "I have taken two shoe-laces out of the booty without permission''. The Prophet said: "Return them; otherwise they will be fastened to your feet on the Day of Judgement in the shape of fire".35

It is here that the ulterior motives of the biased orientalists become evident, because they describe the battles of Islam as plundering, but shut their eyes from their spiritual aims, as this type of discipline cannot be expected from a plundering group. It is not possible for the leader of a plundering community to treat honesty as the sign of faith and to train his soldiers in such a manner that he should be able to restrain them from taking even a shoe-lace from the public property.

https://www.al-islam.org/message-jafar-subhani/chapter-43-fort-khayber-centre-danger#war-booty-divided

[Ashvazdanghe]

Could you please explain the essence of infallibility? I personally believe only God is infallible.

first stage is actually a response to the question: 'Can a human being who is the vicegerent of God prevail over the materialistic dimension [of his/her being] and live a life of virtue, purity, and infallibility?'

Hence, infallibility here means that a human being, whilst having an animalistic instinct which can be the breeding place for oppression and evil, becomes absorbed in his/her inclination to divinity to the extent that through [actions chosen with] freewill he/she begins to reflect the characteristics and moral etiquettes of the angels.

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This type of infallibility has levels and stages; at the most perfect and complete stage a person becomes immune and distant from all mistakes and deviations. The source for this type of infallibility is the light and recognition [of realities] bestowed upon the person by God. In essence, this is the rank of being 'Gods Vicegerent', that the Prophets and Awlīyā' (friends and those close) of God have achieved, simply because they gave more importance to the love of God over the love of this world

It is also worth mentioning that the Prophets and Imāms, due to their roles as dissimulators of Gods message, apart from possessing this type of infallibility, also enjoyed greater God given immunity as a guarantee and protection for the divine message [that they had to deliver for the people].

 

Nonetheless, these great personalities, more than others, perceive themselves to be flawed and blemished in front of God to the extent that they do not imagine themselves needless of God even for less than a second.

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However, if one surrenders their whole will and existence to God or the Imāms, they have given up their own will and thereafter, their every action will be in accordance to the will of their master. Such a stage cannot be perceived except at the level of [true] love and complete absorption (in God).

https://www.islamquest.net/en/archive/fa21359

[IbnHasan14]

On 11/12/2022 at 3:37 AM, Cool said:

This itself is the matter where I have pointed in my post. Showed contradiction in what you believe and what your books are saying. 

Please provide any nass for your belief that:

1. the sunnah of nominating the successor would change after Imam Hussain (عليه السلام)

2. Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) had not right to appoint his successor after him.

3. There will arrive a time where people don't have any Imam to follow & obey. While your own books mentions the hadith:

من مات و لم يعرف الامام مات ميتة جاهلية

4. The Imams after Hussain (عليه السلام) will not be ma'soom (protected ones) while your own books contain the hadith mentioning Imams as:

حجة الله على خلقه و امان اهل الارض من استيصال عذابه

5. The Imamate will divide into two groups. One group would become your Imams of knowledge who would not rise with sword and a group would be Imams of obedience (ulil amr) who would rise with sword. 

We have discussed these point several times. Imamate is a divine covenant as per 2:124, therefore it must be divinely designated. The divine covenant of Imamate would not reach to unjust as per 2:124, therefore Imam must be the bearer if ismah. Imam guide as per the divine command as per 32:24, therefore if God allow him to go in occultation, your point becomes meaningless. 

This statement can be dismissed straight away by showing you that a vast majority of Shias knew their Imams in their life times and even now, we believe in twelve Imams, the ones who according to your books, either martyred with sword or either by poison. How many of your Imams died a natural death? 

Salam again my dear brother

the reason why the Imams Ali, Hasan and Husayn were Divinely appointed was due to them being contemporaries of the Prophet, this is why since the Imamate is going to continue forever, the Prophet is not going to designate each imam until the day of judgement, this point is especially important since the Imam is not restricted to the number 12.

And it makes sense because when you limit Imamate to the number twelve, then naturally you need to have an Imam in occultation.

sadly, not only did the Alid relatives of our dear imams not know about the next Imam, but even the close students were unaware and this is why they had great ikhtilaf, in fact they never mentioned the number twelve

Also, as an ex-twelver i wish there was a twelfth Imam but unfortunately we cannot see him or meet him, which suggests that he is of no use unfortunately and i say this with sadness because I was very into bringing back the twelth imam when i was a twelver, but i realised that there is no binding and definitive proof.

So, since the Nusus (scriptural texts) are weak and since there is this dilemma of not being able to access the guidance and knowledge of the occult Imam, it would be safe to say that he doesn't exist unfortunately. This is coherent because if we have the premise that there always needs to be an Imam for the preservation of guidance, then the question arises, where is our true 12th imam during our huge problems and misguided moments?

You see this is why the brother and I have left Twelverism, we love our twelver brothers but when you have a divine guide who's obedience is obligatory practicing taqiyya and lying about matters of salvation, then naturally problematic issues like these start to arise

Unfortunately according to the twelver narrative, not only is the Imams hiding but they're also compelled to lie about a foundational, salvational and doctrinal matter.

You are argue that the one who dies without an Imam is dying a death of pagan ignorance. Yet, the Imams according to your narrative hid themselves, whilst the early Alids, who were Zaydi rebelled against tyranny, they sacrificed their lives, their wealth and their money for the sake of truth and justice and alhamdulilah the Zaydi school of Ahlulbayt is still preserved, it is preserved without taqiyya or lying

 

I want you to ponder over these my beloved brother, may Allah bless you always

 

ws

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

8 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

the reason why the Imams Ali, Hasan and Husayn were Divinely appointed was due to them being contemporaries of the Prophet, this is why since the Imamate is going to continue forever, the Prophet is not going to designate each imam until the day of judgement, this point is especially important since the Imam is not restricted to the number 12.

Salam thisi is a void conclusion because vivine appointing has no relation to being contemporaries of prophet Muhammad (pbu) because Allah divine appointing of Prophets & infallible imams (عليه السلام) has been done since creation of universe not since era of prophet Muhammad (pbu) which according to your logic all of prophets from prophet Adam (عليه السلام) to prophet Isa (عليه السلام) have not been infallible because they have not been contemporaries of prophet Muhammad (pbu) which your logic is in similar fashion of Wahbists & salafist who consider Shabas/Companions as infallibles because they have been contemporaries of prophet Muhammad (pbu) .

8 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

the Prophet is not going to designate each imam until the day of judgement, this point is especially important since the Imam is not restricted to the number 12.

Allah has designated 12 infallible Imams which prophet Muhammad (pbu) has announced their names & attributes by order of Allah until judgment day which it has been recorded in reliable & unrefutale  Sunni & shia hadiths .

8 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

And it makes sense because when you limit Imamate to the number twelve, then naturally you need to have an Imam in occultation.

This is decree from Allah which has appointed number of infallible Imams equal to number of cheifso Bani Israel tribes for confirmation of prophet Muhammad (pbu) & his twelve infallible successors which has been mentioned in all of orevious divine scriptures.

8 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

sadly, not only did the Alid relatives of our dear imams not know about the next Imam, but even the close students were unaware and this is why they had great ikhtilaf, in fact they never mentioned the number twelve

Thisi is a batlant lie against Amir al Muminin Imam Ali (عليه السلام)  & rest of infallible Imams which this false idea has been refuted many times in SC acording to reliable & unrefutable sources whether from Sunni or Shia sources.

8 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

Also, as an ex-twelver i wish there was a twelfth Imam but unfortunately we cannot see him or meet him, which suggests that he is of no use unfortunately and i say this with sadness because I was very into bringing back the twelth imam when i was a twelver, but i realised that there is no binding and definitive proof.

This is totally wronf because everyone has a chance to meet or see him but on the other hand nobody will recognize him until his reappearance which You & others can't bring him back because it's depends on decision of Allah which when he sees that people will be ready for his reappearnce & his support by their lives so therefore he will bring him back from occutation.

8 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

So, since the Nusus (scriptural texts) are weak and since there is this dilemma of not being able to access the guidance and knowledge of the occult Imam, it would be safe to say that he doesn't exist unfortunately. This is coherent because if we have the premise that there always needs to be an Imam for the preservation of guidance, then the question arises, where is our true 12th imam during our huge problems and misguided moments?

You see this is why the brother and I have left Twelverism, we love our twelver brothers but when you have a divine guide who's obedience is obligatory practicing taqiyya and lying about matters of salvation, then naturally problematic issues like these start to arise

I totally disagrre with this because it has clearly said by Imam Mahdi (aj) that we must refer to narrators of Hadith of Ahlulbayt (عليه السلام) with defined qualifications as his deputies when we don't have direct access to him for receiving guidance also he will intervene in dire situation to help his shias .

8 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

You see this is why the brother and I have left Twelverism, we love our twelver brothers but when you have a divine guide who's obedience is obligatory practicing taqiyya and lying about matters of salvation, then naturally problematic issues like these start to arise

Thisi is toally wrong because accrding to holy Quran folllowers of all divine guides from prophet Adam (عليه السلام) to prophet muhammad 9pbu) always have been in danger of perishing by their enemies which always numbers of followers of divine guides have been lesser than their staunch enemies so therefore they alway have needed Taqiyya for preserving their religion & lives until reappearnce of Imam Mahdi (aj) .

8 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

Unfortunately according to the twelver narrative, not only is the Imams hiding but they're also compelled to lie about a foundational, salvational and doctrinal matter.

Thisi is a batalant lie because Imam's hiding is for preseving for his life until his reappearance but onth e other hand foundational matters likewise salvation & doctrinal matter have never been hided or obsealed .

9 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

You are argue that the one who dies without an Imam is dying a death of pagan ignorance. Yet, the Imams according to your narrative hid themselves, whilst the early Alids, who were Zaydi rebelled against tyranny, they sacrificed their lives, their wealth and their money for the sake of truth and justice and alhamdulilah the Zaydi school of Ahlulbayt is still preserved, it is preserved without taqiyya or lying

Thisi is a proven matter from both of relaible & unrefutable Sunni & Shia sources which mutiple times has been proved which your Zaydi imams inshaAllah will be rewarded for their sacrifices & standing againt tyrany although they have not qualified  them to be Imams  ayway you can't provide any reliable dicument that Taqiyya or according to you lying has not happened in Zaydi history which sometimes your Zaydi Imams have done Taqiyya or according to you  lying for gathering people around themslves which Zaydia in Yemen has ben survived due to success of Islamic revolution of Iran (IRI) because according to relaible persons from Zaydis of Yemen  before IRI , the Zaydia has been in edge of extinction due to spreading Wahabism in Yemen by KSA which Zaydi scholars in Yemen couldn't stand against it which majority of them have prefered to do Taqiyya which Islamic revolution of Iran  has caused reviving of Zaydism in Yemen by giving courage to people & Zaydi scholars of Yemen to stand aginst spreading Wahabism in Yemen by KSA.

9 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

I want you to ponder over these my beloved brother, may Allah bless you always

InshaAllal ,Allah blesses you too.

[Cool]

8 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

this is why since the Imamate is going to continue forever, the Prophet is not going to designate each imam until the day of judgement, this point is especially important since the Imam is not restricted to the number 12.

Salam,

Brother its your choice if you want to ignore the ahadith of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) which even are present in your own books and quoted by me earlier on this thread.

8 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

And it makes sense because when you limit Imamate to the number twelve, then naturally you need to have an Imam in occultation.

You know after rejecting the ahadith, anything could make sense to you like the right of electing the bearer of divine covenant which goes against the Quran straightaway. 

Infact Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام) was not in occultation, but Zaidiyyah have invented for themselves beliefs which goes against ahadith and the Quran. 

8 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

sadly, not only did the Alid relatives of our dear imams not know about the next Imam, but even the close students were unaware and this is why they had great ikhtilaf, in fact they never mentioned the number twelve

 The number 12 is mentioned everywhere, even in your books, the books of Ahlul Sunnah as well. I can only smile on this statement 

8 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

Also, as an ex-twelver i wish there was a twelfth Imam but unfortunately we cannot see him or meet him, which suggests that he is of no use unfortunately and i say this with sadness because I was very into bringing back the twelth imam when i was a twelver, but i realised that there is no binding and definitive proof.

Sadly, the ones from Zaidiyyah who saw Imam Sajjad (عليه السلام), met with him, still refused to accept him as their Imam. So it doesn't really matter if you are unable to see & meet with your Imam of time. And this is among the many reasons of the occultation.of 12th Imam. 

9 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

since the Nusus (scriptural texts) are weak and since there is this dilemma of not being able to access the guidance and knowledge of the occult Imam, it would be safe to say that he doesn't exist unfortunately.

You are always free to disembark from the Ark of Noah. Take care of your safety by yourself. 

9 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

This is coherent because if we have the premise that there always needs to be an Imam for the preservation of guidance, then the question arises, where is our true 12th imam during our huge problems and misguided moments?

Your ignorance of "system of guidance", its sole Owner as well as the role of Imam in guidance, is not new for me. And this would happen when you remove Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) & His command from the picture. Imam would automatically removed from the picture too. 

On 11/12/2022 at 8:57 AM, Cool said:

The بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ in this verse is a phrase which is sufficient to refute Zaidiyyah beliefs. Even the often quoted verse by them contains this phrase & pointing towards ma'soom Imams عليهم السلام

ثُمَّ أَوْرَثْنَا الْكِتَابَ الَّذِينَ اصْطَفَيْنَا مِنْ عِبَادِنَا فَمِنْهُمْ ظَالِمٌ لِّنَفْسِهِ وَمِنْهُم مُّقْتَصِدٌ وَمِنْهُمْ سَابِقٌ بِالْخَيْرَاتِ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ هُوَ الْفَضْلُ الْكَبِيرُ

35:32 

Even the "sabqat" in goodness is done by the اذن الله by the ones mentioned as "sabiqun bil khayraat" here. 

 

9 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

but when you have a divine guide who's obedience is obligatory practicing taqiyya and lying about matters of salvation, then naturally problematic issues like these start to arise

Go back in history and start blaming Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) too. There was a huge time space between the Prophets. Even Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) arrived after some 600 years of Jesus. And upon his arrival, he remained anonymous to people for 40 years or so. He started his mission upon the divine command, Jesus (عليه السلام) on the other hand, assumed his duties from birth.  

So by your logic, you can even call your Lord Almighty liar too (na'udobillahe min zalik)

9 hours ago, IbnHasan14 said:

You are argue that the one who dies without an Imam is dying a death of pagan ignorance. Yet, the Imams according to your narrative hid themselves, whilst the early Alids, who were Zaydi rebelled against tyranny, they sacrificed their lives, their wealth and their money for the sake of truth and justice and alhamdulilah the Zaydi school of Ahlulbayt is still preserved, it is preserved without taqiyya or lying

Sadly, all of those Zaidi's who died ignorant to their Imam of time, died the death of ignorance. There is no doubt about it. 

Zaydi school of thought is preserved just like the Sunni school of thought is preserved i.e., by mixing the truth with falsehood. 

There is just one school of thought which is holding the truth without contaminating it with falsehood and that is the Twelvers Asuli Shia. 

Unfortunately, you left that school and have selected contamination for yourself by getting away from the purified Imams of Ahlul Bayt عليهم السلام who are neither from Zalimeen nor are they misguided. 

Wassalam!! 

[Zaydism]

@Cool @Ashvazdanghe This thread was made for the occultation which no one stepped up to defend (understandably, as it is impossible to logically defend it) if you want to discuss designation of 12 Imams you can do so on that thread.

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

12 hours ago, Zaidism said:

This thread was made for the occultation which no one stepped up to defend (understandably, as it is impossible to logically defend it) if you want to discuss designation of 12 Imams you can do so on that thread.

Salam you just repeat your nonsense again & again just with new titles just for hiding your defeat in a losing battle .