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In the Name of God بسم الله

Mahsa Amini, 22-year old Iranian, dies after morality police arrest

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khizarr

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4 hours ago, GreenTree said:

So shooting down a flight 2yrs ago, killing so many rebels every year, all have been staged by the West. 

Is there anything that is not staged by the west? Is anything actually bad on that side?

First of all, I never said it was staged by the West. I said it could be staged by the West.

And yes, obviously Iran isn't perfect. How could it be, when it's a system run by fallibles? But, like I mentioned earlier, it's the only country which is shaping its laws to prepare for the reappearance of the Muntazar (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف).

4 hours ago, khizarr said:

Nope, not for shiachat folks. They don't budge at this one. At this point, it's kind of become a psychological need for them to turn anything and everything into a Western or Israeli agenda.

Habibi, does any revolutionary have an actual mind to you? We're not just blindly following Imam Khamenei (ha). But when we look at him and we look at the rest of the world's leaders, we're proud to say we're his followers. 

3 hours ago, Eddie Mecca said:

Compared to neighboring ME countries and Western nations Iran is immaculate

@GreenTree @khizarr This is exactly what I was saying.

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5 hours ago, khizarr said:

Nope, not for shiachat folks. They don't budge at this one. At this point, it's kind of become a psychological need for them to turn anything and everything into a Western or Israeli agenda. 

Haha yeah

The people here have a very binary view on things. Very black-and-white. US is bad, and therefore anyone who is against the US are automatically good guys who can do no wrong. That's why many people on this site supports China and its' concentration camps where they do unspeakable atrocities against uyghur muslims (nevermind the fact that China has close relations with Israel...).

But I digress. The philosopher Nietzche once talked about one becoming the very monster that they're fighting against, when gazing into the abyss. The iranian regime epitomizes this. They criticize Israel for massacring palestinians, while they are behaving exactly the same as the Israeli government does in the palestinian territories. They accuse other countries of being US lapdogs, while they themselves have become lapdogs of China.

Still though, Iran is in a big mess whichever way it goes. If the regime stays in power, the mullahs will chop up the country and sell it to the highest bidder. If the regime falls, it might risk becoming another Syria, or an obedient puppet state to the West at best.

Edited by Dubilex
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40 minutes ago, Dubilex said:

Still though, Iran is in a big mess whichever way it goes. If the regime stays in power, the mullahs will chop up the country and sell it to the highest bidder. If the regime falls, it might risk becoming another Syria, or an obedient puppet state to the West at best.

Salam if they have had this plan so therefore revolution against shah has been  useless anyway enemies of iran has said such nonsense since success of revolution likewise calling Iran lapdog of soviets & etc which until now although of thes baseless accusations Iran has stayed intact but on the other hand all of it's enemeies have fallen so then seperated to multiple countries .

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45 minutes ago, Dubilex said:

while they are behaving exactly the same as the Israeli government does in the palestinian territories.

your baseless insults has no realtion to thread which you just any thread just to spread your hatred & accusations against Iran.

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1 hour ago, Zainuu said:

I guess the footage released shows the durations when she was released from the custody. Someone (likely an Iranian) said that the hall in which she is seen with other woman is a common place where they come just before getting released. That person also said that she is wearing a proper hijab in the footage because the police provides woman (who are arrested) for hijab with proper clothes for veling.

 

 

Oh my, if this really is true, then the culprit is a certain thing starting with the letter V that caused it. If this is true, it really changes things.

Regardless of one's political opinions, the pursuit of truth is the most important. But has it been verified that the girl in the video is indeed her?

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On 9/21/2022 at 6:58 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

In tragic events likewise this parents of children call their children as infallible children without any physical defect also some cultures are hiding any underlying disease in children in hope of finding a spouse for them so then  their children  won't lose chance of marriage. due to underlying disease.

Typical example of self-denial mode

Don’t defend the undefendable.

O believers! Stand firm for justice as witnesses for Allah even if it is against yourselves, your parents, or close relatives. Be they rich or poor, Allah is best to ensure their interests. So do not let your desires cause you to deviate ˹from justice˺. If you distort the testimony or refuse to give it, then ˹know that˺ Allah is certainly All-Aware of what you do. 135 an-Nisa

Maybe it’s other way around. It very well could be that the members of the Gasht-e Ershad (Guidance Patrols) themselves are suffering from some mental order such Sadism and are budding into Psychopaths.

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“They’re lying. They’re telling lies. Everything is a lie … no matter how much I begged, they wouldn’t let me see my daughter,” Amjad Amini told BBC Persia on Wednesday.

When he viewed his daughter’s body leading up to her funeral it was entirely wrapped except for her feet and face – though he noticed bruising on her feet. “I have no idea what they did to her,” he said.

CNN could not independently verify his account with hospital officials.

How crazy? They didn't even let the father give her ghusl. How crazy is this? 

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/22/middleeast/iran-protests-mahsa-amini-father-internet-blackout-intl-hnk

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30 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

More is coming up now.

 

Obviously to see the reality patience is essential.

Brother please don't forget that police uses ambulance to arrest people, to get into areas where a lot of people are protesting. An hour ago, I called my friend in Tehran, to get his statement. Probably some people are misusing this protests for their personal hate and agendas. But majority just wants a change, a change that brings comfort for themselves and for their generations. Please don't try to hide the brutality of this morality police. Injustice is not divided like we are, it happens to all people. 

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Here is Dame Masih Alinejad, longtime 'democracy' activist and a ringleader of the current protests.

Then there is Dame Alinejad with the Patron Saint of Freedom and Democracy in Global South, San Pompeo.

Not going to say anything more.

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To me this issue of Hijab has become tangential. We have state media saying that she was not beaten and died of a heart-attack supposedly, but then the family, specifically the girl's father denying that and also denying that she had previous brain surgery. So I wouldn't trust the credibility of what the Iranian authorities, it's not as though they haven't lied before (remember the Ukrainian airliner incident where for 2 days they kept up a lie till they couldn't sustain it and had to be honest with their own people). But there is a bigger problem and it's one of lack of accountability.

Even if one is to say definitively that this woman was not beaten, the conduct of security forces going around with batons and beating women with it who pose no threat to them is pretty clear. We've seen footage of Iranian security forces using ambulances to move their security forces to crack down so they won't be detected (which is a massive violation of any int'l protocol). So to those who basically argue that Mahsa herself wasn't beaten, there is still a lot here that cannot be justified. What kind of Islam are you hoping to promote where women are beaten if they don't obey wearing a cloth on their head? Since when did hijab become something the state has to enforce? What's next? The state enforcing the notion that everyone prays? That everyone fasts? That everyone gives charity? That everyone practices the appropriate amount of Amr bil Ma'ruf and Nahi an il Munkar? For those who claim that this is different because it goes on in public, well what about the many practices that happen inside Iran that's common knowledge that are quite contrary to the principles of Islam. When you have women that sell themselves just to make ends meet because of the economic situation in Iran, no one discusses how that in itself is problematic from an Islamic perspective. And to those who justify that that is because of sanctions, firstly that ignores internal economic corruption. Secondly, the government knows the consequences of choosing certain policies and if it claims that guarding the dignity of women is so fundamental then what about the dilemmas that women face that tarnish their dignity because of the policy course the government has chosen knowing full well the consequences?

You can't justify a practice based on a certain worldview and then not be consistent in how you apply this worldview. Islam requires hijab, but it seems like there's this human imposed hierarchy of sin at play here. If women don't cover their hair, that's seen as a big sin that the state has to correct. But when you have state authorities that lie (as they did with the Ukrainian airliner), go around beating people up without cause, shooting at protesters, putting clerics on house arrest just because they don't agree with Khamenei there's no accountability there, even though if you take an islamic worldview in its entirety these should be dealt with too. When Montazeri criticized some of the state's policies around the executions in the late 80's, the constitution was changed and he was marked as an agent that was no longer fit to succeed Ayatollah Khomeini. Even today we see remarks by the revolutionary guard corps that tarnish the protesters as agents of the west and Israel, despite there being no attempt to provide evidence linking every single one of these protests to that. None of this would be considered "just" if we actually cared about applying Islamic principles consistently. But it seems like we've fully embraced this idea of selectively applying Islam as and when we think something legitimates it given our subjective criteria of how we rank various sins.

All of this is besides the point anyway. Those who will defend the government no matter what will continue to do so, because they are convinced of its righteousness no matter what. However, as this continues the opposition will become more and more violent. Mosques and the Hijab are already being burnt. As calls for reform are ignored and protests continually painted as having no agency of their own and being influenced by the west, the reaction will become more and more violent. The reaction will not be limited to just the current government but against every symbol of Shiism. When that day comes, a lot of people will be in denial, but at least they won't be able to say they weren't warned. 

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43 minutes ago, Mohamed1993 said:

Since when did hijab become something the state has to enforce? What's next? The state enforcing the notion that everyone prays? That everyone fasts? That everyone gives charity? That everyone practices the appropriate amount of Amr bil Ma'ruf and Nahi an il Munkar?

This is really where it's at.

Some of the folks here have no problem with this kind of infringement whatsoever, as they are extremely vocally supportive of a class pushing religion down into their homes, offices, and personal lives. I don't think most of them would survive two days under that sort of a big-brother world, to be honest, but if they want to continue dreaming on in fool's paradise, they can go ahead and do so by all means. The Taliban's having a blast trying out that model (once again), Saudi Arabia's tried it, and so has Iran. None of these three have produced any outcome apart from being an embarrassment and impediment to Islam and the growth of Islam. 

 

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2 hours ago, GreenTree said:

Brother please don't forget that police uses ambulance to arrest people, to get into areas where a lot of people are protesting. An hour ago, I called my friend in Tehran, to get his statement. Probably some people are misusing this protests for their personal hate and agendas. But majority just wants a change, a change that brings comfort for themselves and for their generations. Please don't try to hide the brutality of this morality police. Injustice is not divided like we are, it happens to all people. 

This narrative that they are using ambulances to arrest people is completely flawed. I heard that also actually. It was given by Masih Alinejad of VOA persian and everyone knows that she is a stooge of the west and has close contacts with the American administration.

But let us study this as well:

1. How protesters distinguish between an ambulance and morality police cars?

2. If they even discover it through something intelligent then why are they burning it? Does it translate to peaceful protests. Burning the ambulance and lynching the police officers. Is it non-violent and peaceful?

So, this was a terrible excuse and again it needs credible evidence. They are unable to provide a credible evidence for Mahsa's murder, let alone this scenario.

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25 minutes ago, Zainuu said:

This narrative that they are using ambulances to arrest people is completely flawed. I heard that also actually. It was given by Masih Alinejad of VOA persian and everyone knows that she is a stooge of the west and has close contacts with the American administration.

But let us study this as well:

1. How protesters distinguish between an ambulance and morality police cars?

2. If they even discover it through something intelligent then why are they burning it? Does it translate to peaceful protests. Burning the ambulance and lynching the police officers. Is it non-violent and peaceful?

So, this was a terrible excuse and again it needs credible evidence. They are unable to provide a credible evidence for Mahsa's murder, let alone this scenario.

I am against violence and these western puppets who have their own agendas. But the undeniable truth of morality police's brutality cannot be ignored. The frustration is towards the entire system which supports violence thus they allow morality police to do so. When police arrests people and beat them and bruise them, to correct their behavior, their improper hejab. Everything is considered okay. However, when a good citizen uses the same violent method to confront the vicious government puppet, the morality police. Then, we are ought to question, who are these "bad protestors" ? why are they using violent methods? Why does all civil code come to your mind for civilians? why not for the police?

 

Edited by GreenTree
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51 minutes ago, khizarr said:

Some of the folks here have no problem with this kind of infringement whatsoever, as they are extremely vocally supportive of a class pushing religion down into their homes, offices, and personal lives. I don't think most of them would survive two days under that sort of a big-brother world, to be honest, but if they want to continue dreaming on in fool's paradise, they can go ahead and do so by all means. The Taliban's having a blast trying out that model (once again), Saudi Arabia's tried it, and so has Iran. None of these three have produced any outcome apart from being an embarrassment and impediment to Islam and the growth of Islam. 

 

Like I say, let's wait and see where this leaves Iran in the long-run. We can discuss this and go back and forth, the events on the ground speak for themselves. 

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On 9/17/2022 at 7:21 PM, khizarr said:

And, you know, it's also quite ironic that Shi'as will rush to defend Iran and not believe in anything until "credible evidence" is presented (which to them is probably Iranian or Russian media), but if a similar act of violence is carried out in Saudi Arabia, the same Shi'as will put their hands up and blame everything on "Wahabbism" and the Saudi kingdom. I mean, why do you not hold Iran to that same standard? Why is it that you need some kind of special evidence for these sort of happenings in Iran, but not for Saudi Arabia? 

We are not sectarians. We are Muslims. We condemn Saudi Barbaria when they oppress Muslims. We know they oppress shia Muslims for just being shias.. They oppress Pro-Palestine sunnis for just being pro-Palestine etc. We condemn the Saudi Regime and its treason to the ummah because of this. But we don't condemn the Saudis for applying hijab law. In fact, we approve it. We condemn the Saudis however for allowing immorality into the heart of Muslims. For opening night clubs, for hosting western singers concerts. And all the other filth that was introduced through The Vision 2030 thing of Bin Salman.

We are followers of Imam Hussain. We object all the immorality just like Imam Hussain stood up against the immorality spread by Yazeed. We don't object hijab being applied. We approve it. And Imam Hussain and his whole family members who wore Chador rose up for the Chador. You can't just support hijablesness and call yourself a shia Muslim. We support Hijab and that it is applied everywhere.

Don't you start with the "enjoining the good with good manners". Sometimes good manners just don't work. You can not just get certain people act moral in the public except through force. And that's when sharia enforcements such as ta'zeer etc. take place.

Whether the secular-Godless west and its loons like it or not, some Muslim countries, whether Iran or Bangladesh or some place else, have laws and you can not walk naked in the streets in the name of "freedom". Just like some of the secular-Godless western nations such as France, Azerbaijan etc. ban hijab; and punish those who wear burqa; Muslim countries can do the opposite. And it is fine even by the godless democracy thingie that, as long as the majoritys approves and enforces the law, then the rules must be obeyed, right? Western "norms" are not universal. Other nations don't have to wear suits, dresses, miniskirts, etc. 

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7 minutes ago, GreenTree said:

Wow, this is like modern day Mokhtarnameh

Please watch this video and please watch more videos on twitter. 

Who is in the wrong here?

There is now way to tell with such a short clip.

If protesters are allowed to burn ambulances, police stations and etc. What is the appropriate response? Are you asking that we turn the other cheek till things die down?

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18 hours ago, rkazmi33 said:

People, who are saying that it doesn't make sense why only Mahsa was beaten. There's a Chinese proverb: kill the chicken to scare the monkeys. Saudi Arabia is giving severe punishments to activists while giving more rights to other women. Recently two women were sentenced to years in jail because of some tweets. Authoritarian people just like to give punishments randomly to create fear. Their punishments never make any sense. 

The message MBS is sending is that he will not tolerate any defiance. Even as he accedes to the demands, he will punish the proponents.

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4 hours ago, Guest 12345 said:

Who is in the wrong here?

There is now way to tell with such a short clip.

One of the clips he posted is so old that it is not even from this year. People on twitter are posting old clips to fan the flames of fitna. They are posting clips that have nothing to do with Mahsa Amini, inna lillahi wa innaa ilayhe rajioon.

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4 hours ago, islamicmusic said:

And Imam Hussain and his whole family members who wore Chador rose up for the Chador.

Yeah, that's a bit of a stretch. I mean, it's good enough for doing poetry, but no one who has studied raw history has ever said something like that. 

 

4 hours ago, islamicmusic said:

You can't just support hijablesness and call yourself a shia Muslim. We support Hijab and that it is applied everywhere.

No, I don't support "hijablessness". I support self-determination. I think that all people have a fundamental right to make their own choices, whether that is to wear a hijab or not. This applies to Iran as much as it does to France or anyone else.

 

4 hours ago, islamicmusic said:

Don't you start with the "enjoining the good with good manners".

Sure, and I agree with that. But I don't need to intervene with others' personal autonomy as a result of what I believe in.

4 hours ago, islamicmusic said:

And that's when sharia enforcements such as ta'zeer etc. take place.

Let's not go there, bud. It'll be a huge digression. 
 

 

4 hours ago, islamicmusic said:

Other nations don't have to wear suits, dresses, miniskirts, etc. 

No one is saying they "have" to. Where are you taking this out from? We're talking about the right to exercise freedom. That's the matter at hand.

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15 hours ago, Dubilex said:

Still though, Iran is in a big mess whichever way it goes. If the regime stays in power, the mullahs will chop up the country and sell it to the highest bidder.

Dubious. 

15 hours ago, Dubilex said:

If the regime falls, it might risk becoming another Syria, or an obedient puppet state to the West at best.

Not even credible. 

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