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In the Name of God بسم الله

Mahsa Amini, 22-year old Iranian, dies after morality police arrest

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khizarr

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9 hours ago, 3wliya_maryam said:

Really? Minimal mistakes? 

So enforcing the hijab onto every woman and other islamic teachings is considered a minimal mistake and success? It has caused nothing but fitna and further hatred spread on the religion of Islam and the true purpose of the hijab. And you call that minimal? And just because they're the only Shia based government in the world, we are OBLIGATED to support them?!! What the heck.
The Ahlulbayt(عليه السلام) never enforced their beliefs and practices onto people. I don't need to provide evidence, its basic common sense, and every single Imam (عليه السلام) never enforced Islam onto anyone and the Holy Quran itself states that there is no compulsion in religion

 

 

The hijab is part of the religion, so I don't think it's inappropriate for a country that bases it's government on the religion of Islam to enforce it. Btw, there are also laws for men regarding hijab. They are different for men but they are still there and still enforced.

How they are enforced in Iran is something I don't have much experience with since I've never been to Iran. I've heard different things about it but most of what I've heard leads me to believe that they are not enforced by physical force, ie women aren't beaten up on the street for not wearing hijab. It's more of a civil matter. If they were being beaten up in the streets that would be wrong and uncivilized and I would be against that manner of enforcement

Every country has laws and every country enforced those laws otherwise the laws are meaningless. In certain parts of the US if u spit on the street you are fined hundreds of dollars. I don't see anyone saying we want to overthrow the govt because we want to spit on the street. 

Edited by Abu Hadi
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15 hours ago, GreenTree said:

What is theologically and historically so wrong? Shia Islam never supports the oppressor.

Who is defined as the oppressor and what constitutes oppression is what is under scope here; if you were to read our hadith and historical accounts you would struggle to substantiate this claim of "Shia Islam never supports the oppressor". If looked at from a lens of euro-centric morality, there have been numerous instances of "Shia Islam" being the oppressor. If I were to tell you Imam Ali had an entire group of people who believed him to be God killed in a pit by smoke, would you describe him as an oppressor? Your entire premise seems to be based on the harm principle which is just shallow Western morality. 

Shia Islam does not stand with the oppressor; who the oppressor is in a situation is simply a matter of ethics and perspective. Shia Islam stands with the truth, no matter who is in favor of it or stands against it.  

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16 hours ago, Diaz said:

I’m so sorry brother, but I’m not going to believe something like this without any proof or evidence.  What do you mean by “everything bad about their child”? Having a tumors is not something to be ashamed off. 
 

You still don’t know what’s happening over here in the place where I live. Pro Iran who are not Iranian are accusing masha, saying  that she is spreading corruption because of the way how she dress. 

Thank god you aren't a judge, so many people would be in jail if you had that kind of judgement. 

 

Do you have any idea how unreliable testimony can get? Are you just suddenly throwing out the process that goes into these investigations because the womans parents allegedly said so? 

 

And yes there are so many cases where I have seen the parents gaslight their child and go in denial in order to not accept the fact that their child has something wrong with them, "no god forbid! My child is perfect!" . 

 

I know one case personally where some parents refused to give their child adhd medication even after being diagnosed by a professional, they said that the professional is "lying" and their child is "normal" like all the others.

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59 minutes ago, Abu Hadi said:

The hijab is part of the religion, so I don't think it's inappropriate for a country that bases it's government on the religion of Islam to enforce it.

Is enforcing the hijab part of our religion, too?

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I find it funny that some Non-Muslims, East and West doesn't matter, demonize Muslims with their hijabs and taqiyah (Muslim Hats), which they equate the hat as Muslim Men wearing diapers in their heads btw, as The Devil's Clothing of Oppression while turning a blind eye on Christian Nun Veils serving the same purpose and a Married Jewish Women's version of Hijab which is essentially wearing a Fake Wig to cover their real Hair.

https://anwig.com/why-do-jewish-women-wear-wigs-the-untold-secrets-revealed.html

Most people wouldn't want to live in certain nations with the Moral Police governing over their public affairs and livelihoods. That implies restrictions. Most people hate restrictions. They see Restriction as Oppression and wish to Liberate themselves away from most if not all Restrictions of the World & Humanity because MUH FREEDOM.

Humanity is in quite the fickle state. Either exercise the Laws of their nation so hard it is ultimately restrictive to the point of crippling their livelihoods. Or defy the Laws of their nation to the point of Anarchy/Lawlessness since it is all man-made and subjective from their understanding due to how Morality will never be Objective.

Let's see if Humanity can defy the laws of physics, death, and nature altogether.

Some people live solely to obey whatever they come across in Life. Others live solely to defy everything they come across in Life.

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9 hours ago, Laayla said:

^^^

So brother/sister

The template response is why do you live in Aussieland, and that you are a supremacist.  

Those who identify as Muslims are not going to respond to your statements.

They don't care about the ummah.  They care for their comfort and the money flowing in.

Every year I go iran, I live australia to feed family. I'll soon retire live iran for my whole life. I'm not permanent living in Australia which is a sin if you don't.

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6 hours ago, Diaz said:

Exactly, they say America is trying to spread their fasad on us yet the same people are subscribing to Netflix and watch whatever they want. Look what happened to google and Amazon, they are making deal with Israel, ask the same people are they willing to stop using Amazon and google? 

I don't have an account on amazon. I prefer to buy from local businesses or flipkart in any case.

I also don't watch Netflix at all as they have an agenda.

Anyways, this is not the topic. Discuss it somewhere else.

Let me just buy your argument for a second. Let us not support Iran and unless we leave our country and almost everything that is connected to the taghut system. (which will definitely take years maybe)

Then what?

We will stay stuck in this non/anti-islamic lifestyle forever. The enemies will keep moving and moving towards us. It is like saying: "We cannot stand with the Imam of the time because we are not like him."

Does it make sense at all?

We all are struggling to develop a system of Wilayat in our lives and parallely we are compelled to live under the system of taghut. All of us.

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2 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

At the same time, in a country like Iran, which is a large country with many millions of women and men of many different levels of faith and morals, and some even non muslims, there needs to be some 'outside' enforcement mechanism in order to ensure that the morality of the society doesn't degrade over time and become corrupted, like it has become in many places in the world, and like it has become in even some 'Muslim' countries where Muslims are in the majority and yet you don't see Islam being practiced in the society, or it is practiced very rarely. 

Well, I understand all that, but you didn't really get to the heart of my question. Is such an 'outside' enforcement mechanism necessitated by our religion or is it something that the Iranian/Saudi regime has decided to warrant on its own, presumably under the name of Islam? 
 

2 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

What exactly that standard is, and how it is enforced is up to the people of Iran to decide, not us outsiders.

Absolutely. But it is extremely concerning, nonetheless. 
 

2 hours ago, Abu Hadi said:

It seems to me they have decided, and most of the people in Iran support the current enforcement mechanisms regarding this.

I don't think that the Iranian people have decided that. For many, it was sort of handed down to them, and it's become status quo. Most of them won't challenge it,  but I wouldn't be surprised if the vast majority of Iranians feel that hijab should be a private matter. There are probably some statistics on it somewhere on the web. Fortunately, as seen in other nations, I think as the younger population grows, there will be major changes and this type of strict, hegemonic culture will perish. 

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6 hours ago, EiE said:

My issue is the fact that there are so many ardent supporters of the Iranian government paying taxes to the very country that opposes their islamic government while sitting comfortably far away in support of the opposite of what they preach.
That's the very definition of hypocrisy, isn't it?

No that's not hypocrisy. As our marja e Taqleed whether Sayyed al Sistani or Sayyed al Khamenei have permitted us to pay taxes. And in anyway we pay TAXES, we do not DONATE to the govt. Both things are different completely.

We cannot dodge the taxation laws although we don't have any will to pay them.

7 hours ago, EiE said:

Only a very small percentage of us may have very legitimate reasons for not relocating there, unless you're a hypocrite, since you may then persuade yourself of anything you think would work best for personal comfort.

I am atleast not the knower of the unseen. And as far as my brain can process your identity even you are not. So, avoid using conjecture. People have reasons and obligations to fulfill in there respective countries.

7 hours ago, EiE said:

Then, just as the Western media cherry picks its news outlets, the Iranian nation does with their politics.
Sure, it may be in the best interests of their country, but as the symbol of Shia Islam, shouldn't they act differently and unselfishly regardless of who their political views oppose? Wouldn't that be amongst the greatest jihad?

Again, a conjecture. Please avoid using conjectures.

In the name of neutrality, they cannot blindly take blames even for something they haven't done. And even if something has happened, they have every right to hide it.

For example: If your sister is in an affair with a christian, this is none of my business and I am no one to put my nose into your household matters. And even you will do all damn possible to make sure no one knows about what's going on in your family. And you are right in that scenario. You won't just go out loud and clear and say to everyone what your sister is doing.

So, it is an internal matter of Iran like many other matters which have evolved in the past 40 years. Let them deal with it. When they had a revolution in 1979, we did not help or aide them in any way so we don't have any right to bash them as well. When they fought an unjust war against saddam and came out victorious, no one of us helped them so we have no right to bash them now.

 

And even Iranians must understand, whosoever spreads your mess in the western media is either a traitor or a fool. Don't allow that to happen.

Protest, speak out, stay quiet, ask for investigation, hold patience or do whatever you want to solve your own problems but do it internally. 

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4 hours ago, khizarr said:

Is enforcing the hijab part of our religion, too?

According to the fuqaha, the Muslims are supposed to enforce every halal and haram. 

Amr bil Maroof and Nahi an al Munkar is a communal obligation that yes, can reach physical enforcement, and this goes for any sin or any neglecting of a wajib.

On top of the that, ta'zir (discretionary punishment) - lashing, usually - can be applied to anyone who commits any sin that does not have a fixed punishment (hudood) or anyone who does not perform a wajib (such as salat, sawm, Hajj etc). 

All forms of sin are to be eliminated from the public sphere in a true Islamic society, even by way of force.

This is what the traditionalist Fuqaha say anyway, if you disagree that is your wish.

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11 hours ago, GreenTree said:

[Mod Note: The video and image in this reply are dated September 20, which is a long time after the death of Mahsa Amini. This post is probably a misrepresentation of events or off-topic.]

FdL5WSnWAAARjP1?format=jpg&name=medium

This video is not of Mahsa, the lady who was killed by Morality Police. But this video is an example of how morality police monster beats a woman with a baton. I don't think, any of us would want this to happen to our loved ones. This is so cruel. This video is from yesterday. So clearly there is no change in psychology of these psychopath monsters. This video is from local Iranians, so clearly this is not a western propaganda. This is happening in Iran. A reality that is being covered up by saying everything is a western propaganda. A regime that treats women in such an inhumane way, doesn't represent Shia Islam. But something else. I am remembering Maqtal again. How sayyeda zeinab and other women were mistreated by those monsters. Ah I see similarities now. If people here cannot accept that killing an innocent woman over hejab is wrong. Then what is the point of pinpointing technicalities? Oh this video is from yesterday, it is not Mahsa. 

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Some posts in this topic are getting very disrespectful toward the marja of others. If this continues, those posts might be removed and members can be warned.  Please keep your words polite or the topic can be closed. 

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12 minutes ago, GreenTree said:

This video is not of Mahsa, the lady who was killed by Morality Police. But this video is an example of how morality police monster beats a woman with a baton.inting technicalities? Oh this video is from yesterday, it is not Mahsa. 

IF you watch that video (not a video about the lady Mahsa), a woman who had pushed up her long sleeves and was showing her arms to men on motorcycles, while leaning toward them and shouting something abusive. An unknown man who was not in uniform, hit her and two other women, probably in response to whatever abusive words she was shouting. You cannot say that he was a member of the Morality Police. He should not have attacked those three women, however, it did happen. We condemn it, but it has nothing to do with the OP.  

12 minutes ago, GreenTree said:

Oh this video is from yesterday, it is not Mahsa. 

Please don't post any video that has nothing to do with the OP. In past topics, we have had people posting violent videos from other countries, not even Iran. 

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12 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

How it is wrong? Please support it by Quran and Sunnah. Show me that

Let there arise out of you a band of people inviting to all that is good, enjoining what is right, and forbidding what is wrong: They are the ones to attain felicity. -- Quran 3:104

That this band of people can not be institutionalized.

so forbidding what is wrong means? To kill a woman over her non-perfect hejab? How about cutting hands off for corruption among the members of Iranian parliament? Why is it that law must be implemented for the weak but not for the powerful? Is it that the powerful uses the law system to punish the weaker ones? You went so far to make a good case against a poor innocent girl. How can someone be so heartless? Which islamic law allows gives death sentence for improper hejab? 

Edited by GreenTree
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23 minutes ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

This is what the traditionalist Fuqaha say anyway, if you disagree that is your wish.

Thank you for the input. I absolutely do disagree with them; alternative views on the shari'a, and hijab, are far more convincing - as they stand the test of time, reason, and justice. 

But really, I'm thankful a lot of these traditionalist fuqaha (who probably have no idea of what the world beyond them is like) aren't let too loose in dictating over 21st century societies. 

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1 minute ago, GreenTree said:

so forbidding what is wrong means? To kill a woman over her non-perfect hejab? 

She was not killed because she had bad hijab! Accidental death is not the same as murder. Why don't you want to wait for the investigation to come from Iranian authorities? 

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5 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Secondly, Ayatollah Sistani doesn't hold control over Iraq in the same way that Imam Khamenei (ha) holds control over Iran. They're two different leaders in two different situations. 

Thank you for admitting who controls Iran. Thank you for admitting whatever is done by Morality Police is done in acceptance with the leadership. Thank you for this trophy. 

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1 minute ago, Hameedeh said:

She was not killed because she had bad hijab! Accidental death is not the same as murder. Why don't you want to wait for the investigation to come from Iranian authorities? 

Why do you have to be so one sided? A healthy woman doesn't end up in coma over an improper hejab. Accidental death.. please review morality police record for the last 5 years. There are apparently too many incidents. Morality police harassment is well known. Not a new thing. 

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13 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

She was not killed because she had bad hijab! Accidental death is not the same as murder. Why don't you want to wait for the investigation to come from Iranian authorities? 

I can ask you the same question. Why didn't you wait for the investigation to be completed before you called it an "accidental death"? Why wouldn't you just say "We don't know. It might have happened, it might have not. Let's wait for the final report"?
 

Sure, Iranian authorities will obviously be very unbiased in their investigation, wouldn't they? They have such a great track record on investigating these sort of "accidents". 

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13 minutes ago, Hameedeh said:

IF you watch that video (not a video about the lady Mahsa), a woman who had pushed up her long sleeves and was showing her arms to men on motorcycles, while leaning toward them and shouting something abusive. An unknown man who was not in uniform, hit her and two other women, probably in response to whatever abusive words she was shouting. You cannot say that he was a member of the Morality Police. He should not have attacked those three women, however, it did happen. We condemn it, but it has nothing to do with the OP.  

Please don't post any video that has nothing to do with the OP. In past topics, we have had people posting violent videos from other countries, not even Iran. 

I don't post irrelevant videos. Every video I get from Iran, it is authentic. Thank you to Twitter for making it so easy. Please go on twitter and watch all of these videos. 

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2 minutes ago, khizarr said:

I can ask you the same question. Why didn't you wait for the investigation to be completed before you called it an "accidental death"? Why wouldn't you just say "We don't know. It might have happened, it might have not. Let's wait for the final report"?

Sure, Iranian authorities will obviously be very unbiased in their investigation, wouldn't they? They have such a great track record on investigating these sort of "accidents". 

Why don't you ask the person who said an Iranian marja is responsible for killing Mahsa why he jumped to the conclusion that she was murdered? 

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Just now, Hameedeh said:

Why don't you ask the person who said an Iranian marja is responsible for killing Mahsa why he jumped to the conclusion that she was murdered? 

Did you just.. evade the question? Wow.

Anyhow, after considering the reports so far - be it Western or non-Western - coupled with the courageous outcry in Tehran and in other cities, and also keeping in mind that police brutality is not a new phenomenon and that this is not the first time we're hearing about this sort of barbarism coming out of Iran, I have been leaning more towards the direction that Mahsa Amini did, indeed, suffer at the hands of those who had detained her. Now as for the Iranian marja' comment that seems to have struck a nerve, the point is (and I explained it earlier as well) that one bad apple is not the root of the tree. The root problem is in the state machinery itself, the leadership, the policy makers who have designed these ridiculous patrol departments, creating a culture that has sent a people back 1,000 years in time. This should be a wake up call for all of them. The ones on the top need to be held accountable, too. I don't give two hoots how holy you believe they are.

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4 hours ago, Hameedeh said:

Why don't you ask the person who said an Iranian marja is responsible for killing Mahsa why he jumped to the conclusion that she was murdered? 

He/she/ze/they/it has an agenda dear Sister.

God knows what he/she/ze/they/it is trying to pollute the minds of the youth with it's perverted liberalism ideology.

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People, who are saying that it doesn't make sense why only Mahsa was beaten. There's a Chinese proverb: kill the chicken to scare the monkeys. Saudi Arabia is giving severe punishments to activists while giving more rights to other women. Recently two women were sentenced to years in jail because of some tweets. Authoritarian people just like to give punishments randomly to create fear. Their punishments never make any sense. 

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14 minutes ago, Laayla said:

He/she/ze/they/it has an agenda dear Sister.

God knows what he/she/ze/they/it is trying to pollute the minds of the youth with it's perverted liberalism ideology.

 

So liberalism ideology is perverted? How so? You should really value the democracy, the liberal ideology which saves you and your family from daily troubles of a theocracy infused with dictatorship. You wouldn't have such comfort as you do right now, would you? You benefit so much from democracy like the rest of us and speak so against it. How is that possible? If liberalism, if democracy is so perverted, why do you live in such a perverted society? When we raise Alam of Imam Hussain in NYC Manhattan area, this, very pervert democracy protects us. When we choose to wear a hejab or not, this perverted democracy saves us, from those who have decided that they might just play being The GOD for all of us. There is no morality police, there is no fear. We are free with our inalienable rights. Is democracy, is liberalism still perverted to you? 

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3 hours ago, Labyika ya Khamenei said:

Every year I go iran, I live australia to feed family. I'll soon retire live iran for my whole life. I'm not permanent living in Australia which is a sin if you don't.

Assalam Alikum Brother 

God give you sustenance Brother.  I wasn't criticising you.

God reward you for supporting your family.

@GreenTree

One of the weakest responses is to play the identity politics card.  

Here is where you need to do some research and reading on SC to know that you have no idea who you are speaking to.

Pathetic.

Edited by Laayla
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1 hour ago, GreenTree said:

Thank you for admitting who controls Iran. Thank you for admitting whatever is done by Morality Police is done in acceptance with the leadership. Thank you for this trophy.

1. Never said Imam Khamenei has 100% control of every single member of the morality police.

2. Never said the morality police killed Mahsa Amini.

3. If the morality police did kill Ms Amini, then it's wrong.

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1 minute ago, GreenTree said:

So who killed her? if it was not the morality police?

First and most likely possibility: she wasn't killed.

Less likely possibility: it was staged by the West (they have a history of staging these kinds of things).

But we will wait for the investigation.

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12 minutes ago, -Rejector- said:

First and most likely possibility: she wasn't killed.

Less likely possibility: it was staged by the West (they have a history of staging these kinds of things).

But we will wait for the investigation.

So shooting down a flight 2yrs ago, killing so many rebels every year, all have been staged by the West. 

Is there anything that is not staged by the west? Is anything actually bad on that side? 

Yes we will wait and nothing new will ever happen. 

[Mod Note: Off-topic image was removed.]

Edited by Hameedeh
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4 minutes ago, GreenTree said:

Is there anything that is not staged by the west?

Nope, not for shiachat folks. They don't budge at this one. At this point, it's kind of become a psychological need for them to turn anything and everything into a Western or Israeli agenda. 

Edited by khizarr
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22 hours ago, Dubilex said:

the iranian people are between a rock and a hard place.

Thanks to America, Britain and Israel 

22 hours ago, Dubilex said:

iranian regime does all kinds of haram sins themselves.

Compared to neighboring ME countries and Western nations Iran is immaculate  

22 hours ago, Dubilex said:

There are even daughters of mullahs and ayatollahs living abroad who goes to the beach in bikinis and shor

This argument is bogus and doesn't hold water. Cain killed Abel (they were brothers). Abū Lahab (uncle of Muhammad) fought against Islam his entire life. Hassan Yousef (co-founder of Hamas) was incarcerated by his own son (Mosab Hassan Yousef) who converted to Christianity and became a spy for the Mossad. Rotten apples can be found in every family.

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23 hours ago, Dubilex said:

while women inside of Iran are oppressed

Persian women were active participants in the Islamic Revolution (during the revolution, women from traditional backgrounds spearheaded and mobilized the grand marches which eventually led to the toppling of the Shah) and are heavy contributors to Iranian society. The Iranian Constitution declares equality for both men and women under Article 20. Women are allowed to vote, drive, hold public office, and attend university and yes, not wearing a veil in public can be considered punishable by law. In 1996, 14 women were elected to the Islamic Consultative Assembly. Women may serve in the military and in paramilitary groups. A large portion of the domestic workforce was replaced by women as men were enlisting in the military during the Iran / Iraq War (similar to American women during World War 2 era). As of 2005, 65% of Iran's university students and 43% of its salaried workers were women. As of early 2007, nearly 70% of Iran's science and engineering students are women. In 2009, Fatemeh Bodaghi became vice-president for Legal Affairs and a top advisor to President Mahmoud Ahmedinejad. 

23 hours ago, Dubilex said:

iranian regime

CNN / Don Lemon / Christiane Amanpour talking point —  Freddie Mercury would be proud.

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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