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Mahsa Amini, 22-year old Iranian, dies after morality police arrest

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20 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

I mean I would imagine that amputees in early Arabia probably had it worse than amputees today, in terms of both reputation (as a known thief now), add to that I would say good luck to the amputee in finding an occupation at a time where most men would work in a manual labour field in an already resource-scare society as you mentioned, so I don't believe the stigma argument is strong in and of itself.

It's strong as far as comparative arguments go. I was trying to get at the idea of recognition of human dignity. There seems to be much more reverence for human rights now, and I reckon there would be quite an outcry if people started associating disabilities and crime in such large societies where there would be more crime, in general, and where countries are under constant surveillance and check. It also begs the question, if identification of a criminal was the end goal (as someone might argue), don't we have a substitution for that now with databases doing the job?

21 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

Secondly as I mentioned, Muslims were in fact jailed if they did repeat the offense of stealing, and prison was a already a punishment pre-Islam and during Islam.

So a hadd punishment was utilized before a discretionary punishment? Or was jail not considered ta'zir? I'd like to look into that. Any source?

21 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

I don't really see how prisons would significantly increase the burden on the Islamic Governments of the time, prisons back weren't as expensive as today and in a society where prisoners of war (captives) were already being taken care of in mass numbers, I don't think it would be something out of the norm.

No, it would be out of the norm. Prisoners of war weren't serving unusually long sentences. Prisoners of war were not being punished either, they were simply being temporarily detained until they could find some other place to be. Most of the time, this would only last a couple of days or weeks. No one saw imprisonment as "punishment" in pre-Islamic or early Islamic Arabia. This is nowhere to be found. Putting a roof over someone's head, providing him a set of clothes, and feeding him, all while he gives little to no output, was never going to be considered a punishment in that sort of society where everyone was really just out for themselves and where there is no recorded instance of resource surplus until much later. Most societies did not propose imprisonment as a solution for a reason. It was extremely counterproductive.

21 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

Even if I accept your argument that prisons were too expensive, which I don't believe would be true as prisons would be much simpler back then without the added costs of today's prisons, would it be reasonable to ask why lashing wasn't seen an an appropriate deterrence method for the thief? It apparently worked in deterring the fornicators. Even if you were to say that stealing is more severe and therefore requires a more severe punishment, one might still respond and say: severity of punishment shouldn't matter if the outcome is the same, that lashings work in both situations, and therefore deterrence has been achieved.

Unless one would now say that lashings simply wouldn't work at in deterring a thief, and they are a different type of criminal, and require a different punishment altogether that would work on them.

I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking if lashing was a good enough deterrent at the time of the Prophet (s)? To that, yes, I think it probably was. Mosaic law was good for that purpose overall. It wasn't unusual either; I know the Assyrians would impale women and the Chinese had castration and the Romans would do all sorts of bizarre shows, so it's safe to assume the Arabs would have been following that same trend.

21 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

I mean I don't necessarily even believe this is the case with just Islamic punishments, but any and every law, even for a simple case of mustahab and makruh, there is no reason to ask "why". For example, why is cutting bread with a knife makruh? Well, we don't need to know the reasons, we just need the proof that declares it makruh.

Not necessarily. It was makruh to cut bread with a knife because it resembled the ways of the kuffar. Namely the Persians ('ajam), as it says in the tradition. Sure, we don't need to know the reasons, but they are out there for those who want to find out. 

21 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

Our ahkam are ta'abudiyya (we worship and obey Allah through them) and we don't need the logic behind it, and the traditionalists often rely on the following Verse when the topic of reasonings is brought forth.

It is not for a believing man or a believing woman, when Allāh and His Messenger have decided a matter, that they should [thereafter] have any choice about their affair. And whoever disobeys Allāh and His Messenger has certainly strayed into clear error. [33:36]

I'm not sure why this verse would be used to negate 'logic'. Allah and his Messenger are deciding matters by some sort of reason, not on a whim. Trying to understand that reasoning is not the same thing as disobeying it and straying into error. So how the traditional "well, we don't need things to make sense" is somehow even slightly related to this verse is not clear to me.

21 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

The Muslims were told to not let pity get in our way of enforcing the punishment on the fornicators:

The [unmarried] woman or [unmarried] man found guilty of sexual intercourse - lash each one of them with a hundred lashes, and do not be taken by pity for them in the religion [i.e., law] of Allāh, if you should believe in Allāh and the Last Day. And let a group of the believers witness their punishment. [24:2]

And so therefore, in traditionalist worldview, the job is to obey once we figure out the meaning of a Verse or a hadith which we can be confident has come from an authoritative source, irrespective of emotional reactions or societal reactions. 

How would you reconcile that with some of the narrations we have, though? I believe there was one in al-Kafi where a man was to be punished for having sexual intercourse with another man, but he ended up repenting at the very moment of his punishment, leaving 'Ali b. Abi Talib in tears. And he was not punished thereafter. The Prophet (s), similarly, would often delay punishments and pretend to not understand people's own confessions at times. 

21 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

We also have such hadiths in our books, therefore in the traditionalist worldview deterrence has not proven to be the only goal of the punishments, and therefore they are to stay in their rigid format till the end of time, even if other similarly effective or more effective methods of punishment are available, due to things such as modern science and what not.

Sure, they can stay in their rigid format. For one, they might help some people in acknowledging the fact that these sins are not to be taken lightly, since they were worthy of corporal punishments at some point in our history. Other than that, if they are to stay in their old format, I'm afraid they are not tuned to modern society anymore and, if anything, do the opposite of creating a civilized society - which was the entire point of shari'a in the first place.

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1 hour ago, khizarr said:

It's strong as far as comparative arguments go. I was trying to get at the idea of recognition of human dignity. There seems to be much more reverence for human rights now, and I reckon there would be quite an outcry if people started associating disabilities and crime in such large societies where there would be more crime, in general, and where countries are under constant surveillance and check. It also begs the question, if identification of a criminal was the end goal (as someone might argue), don't we have a substitution for that now with databases doing the job?

There is no question that modern Western society would agree that amputating someone for stealing would be looked at as a vile act, and people would certainly feel sorry for the thief and would see him as a victim of a medieval punishment, regardless of his criminality.

I also understand your point about connecting disability to crime, but I don't believe the point of the Hadd is to amputate people so that they can be identified.

What I didn't find strong is that the stigma would make it hard to incorporate a thief back into society in this day and era, as opposed to the early Islamic age, considering the fact that having a working hand in those days was more necessary in the old societies for occupational purposes.

1 hour ago, khizarr said:

So a hadd punishment was utilized before a discretionary punishment? Or was jail not considered ta'zir? I'd like to look into that. Any source?

Nope, imprisonment in and of itself was a hadd, not a ta'zir. 

The first time someone steals, you cut off the fingers of their right hand. But what if they repeat it again and again? Well, another hadd exists for that. 

قال: إذا أُخذ السارق قطعت يده من وسط الكفّ، فإن عاد قطعت رجله من وسط القدم، فإن عاد استودع السجن، فإن سرق في السجن قتل

This is a reliable hadith, among more, which explains the process.

And the process in the hadith is as Sayyed Al-Khoei mentions here:

2805. If a person who is adult and sane steals 3 3/5 grains of coined gold or anything of equivalent value, and he satisfies the conditions prescribed for it in law, four fingers of his right hand should be cut from their root on his first offence, and the palm of his hand and the thumb should be allowed to remain in tact. If he repeats the offence his left foot should be cut off from the middle and if he steals for the third time, he should be imprisoned for life and his expenses should be paid from the public treasury (Bait ul Maal) and in case he commits theft for the fourth time, whether in the prison or outside it, he should be killed.

https://www.al-islam.org/islamic-laws-ayatullah-abul-qasim-al-khui-sayyid-abu-al-qasim-al-khoei/punishment-prescribed-certain

1 hour ago, khizarr said:

 

No, it would be out of the norm. Prisoners of war weren't serving unusually long sentences. Prisoners of war were not being punished either, they were simply being temporarily detained until they could find some other place to be. Most of the time, this would only last a couple of days or weeks. No one saw imprisonment as "punishment" in pre-Islamic or early Islamic Arabia. This is nowhere to be found. Putting a roof over someone's head, providing him a set of clothes, and feeding him, all while he gives little to no output, was never going to be considered a punishment in that sort of society where everyone was really just out for themselves and where there is no recorded instance of resource surplus until much later. Most societies did not propose imprisonment as a solution for a reason. It was extremely counterproductive.

1) It is true that the situation of imprisonment of those captured in war would usually resolve, most likely in slavery or ransom. 

2) It is however not true that imprisonment was not used in early Islamic Arabia, as it was used apparently used by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in the case of those who do not pay back their debt, although it is disputed by the fuqaha on whether he (عليه السلام) used it  to investigate someone's status (whether they have the ability to pay) or whether it was a punishment to force them to pay knowing they have the ability to.

3) And also as I mentioned, it was mentioned as a hadd for a repeated offense in stealing.

1 hour ago, khizarr said:

I'm not sure I understand your question. Are you asking if lashing was a good enough deterrent at the time of the Prophet (s)? To that, yes, I think it probably was. Mosaic law was good for that purpose overall. It wasn't unusual either; I know the Assyrians would impale women and the Chinese had castration and the Romans would do all sorts of bizarre shows, so it's safe to assume the Arabs would have been following that same trend.

I'm asking; if deterrence is the end goal of punishments, why was lashing not used as a punishment for stealing?

Why was a more severe punishment in amputation necessary? 

Would lashing only deter a potential fornicator, as opposed to a thief who would somehow require a more severe punishment in order to achieve deterrence from stealing in society?

1 hour ago, khizarr said:

Not necessarily. It was makruh to cut bread with a knife because it resembled the ways of the kuffar. Namely the Persians ('ajam), as it says in the tradition. Sure, we don't need to know the reasons, but they are out there for those who want to find out. 

Even if we did not know the reason for it, which we don't for hundreds of ahkam, it would still be categorised as makruh simply because the narration says so.

1 hour ago, khizarr said:

I'm not sure why this verse would be used to negate 'logic'. Allah and his Messenger are deciding matters by some sort of reason, not on a whim. Trying to understand that reasoning is not the same thing as disobeying it and straying into error. So how the traditional "well, we don't need things to make sense" is somehow even slightly related to this verse is not clear to me.

This is not to say that the ahkam do not have a reason behind them as they very well may have one, but that we do not need to know the reason, and in the event that we do then that is a plus, but not a necessity.

Most Muslims, for example, when they go to Hajj, do not know the reasons behind most of the rites that are performed, but they do it anyway with the intention of nearness and obedience. There was no necessity for them to "make sense" of why they are engaging in actions that non-Muslims would see as absurd.

1 hour ago, khizarr said:

How would you reconcile that with some of the narrations we have, though? I believe there was one in al-Kafi where a man was to be punished for having sexual intercourse with another man, but he ended up repenting at the very moment of his punishment, leaving 'Ali b. Abi Talib in tears. And he was not punished thereafter. The Prophet (s), similarly, would often delay punishments and pretend to not understand people's own confessions at times. 

Those hadiths were understood to be ma'soom specific and I have seen some Shi'a use them as proof that the hudood should only be performed by a ma'soom, which is actually a belief that was held by some fuqaha both past and present, although it was not the mashoor view.

The idea is that only the ma'soom who is granted knowledge which we do not have, will know if certain exceptions can be made. (this can be an argument that hudood should only be performed by a ma'soom).

In that hadith you have cited, the Imam (عليه السلام) for example mentions that the Angels have wept for the man in question, so Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) had accepted his repentance, something which we obviously would not know of, and so therefore we can only implement what we have been given, which is to rule by what is apparent to us (witnesses, confessions etc.)

So I would say the reconciliation is that this would be the exception to the rule, which would concern the ma'soom alone.

1 hour ago, khizarr said:

Sure, they can stay in their rigid format. For one, they might help some people in acknowledging the fact that these sins are not to be taken lightly, since they were worthy of corporal punishments at some point in our history. Other than that, if they are to stay in their old format, I'm afraid they are not tuned to modern society anymore and, if anything, do the opposite of creating a civilized society - which was the entire point of shari'a in the first place.

I don't know if some fuqaha see it as wajib to enforce the hudood or simply permissible, as that would be an interesting thing to research about.

I'm sure they all see it as a futile attempt in a non-accepting society anyway, seeing as the ulama in Najaf have not even tried to implement this in Iraq since 2003. Iraq obviously has much more urgent things to worry about.

Finally I would like to say that I have enjoyed this discussion with you brother, but I believe this thread should be more concerned about the topic in question which is the current situation in Iran and any potential updates with the protest situation.

I will await and read your response to this insha Allah, but I won't respond to back. I will say that I have already learned and opened my mind to a few things that you have said, and for that I am grateful. Thank you and stay blessed brother.

Edited by Ibn Tayyar
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Doesn’t it all look interconnected?

This is the chronology of events, I’m intentionally not naming the geographies. To me it’s all happening on the planet earth, to the collective group of Muslims claiming to be associated with the house of Fatima Zahra (عليه السلام). 

1. Chaos and looting as soon as a Marja decides to step down, to disrupt the Arbaeen walk


2. Grandest Arbaeen walk since Covid still continues in Karbala 

3. Couldn’t swallow the ummah’s bond; Masha is marked and used as a fodder for the chaos  

4. Police officers murdered in broad daylight, mosques burned, Quran desecrated, weapons confiscated at Azeri border 

5. Rioters observed, captured, interrogated, found pointers 

6. 73 projectiles with many number of self propelled molten steel sent towards the seditionists hideouts across the northern  border, many terrorists’ casualties reported 

7. Hundred of miles East, a Shia school was blown up in response, killing over two dozen young children 

I don’t know why some good natured, well intended brothers and sisters don’t see it this way.  
 

Like it, accept it, or ignore it, the fact remains, this will continue till the banners are handed over to the real leaders of all these, one to Imam Mahdi (عليه السلام), one to Prophet Jesus (عليه السلام), one to some one eyed minion, one to someone from Najd, and one to Iblees. 

Edited by Irfani313
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Posted (edited)
On 9/25/2022 at 9:36 PM, kadhim said:

Well, if half of them are only observing it because agents of the state may harass them if they don’t, and all the while they hate it, and resent it, and resent the clerics behind it, and resent whatever makes the clerics force this on them—which the clerics insist is nothing but Islam—then how “Islamic” is that status quo? And how “Islamic” will it be going forward?

It’s really quite serious. A lot of the young people are coming to actually hate the religion over this sort of behavior. To you and I, the religion is about positive things; forming a relationship with the maker of the world, being aware of the wonder of creation and feeling thankful, etc. But if for another person Islam is just a boot on their face planted there by people, many of whom don’t seem too pious themselves, then what is that person going to think? 

I spend a good amount of time (at least online; my IRL Muslim friends are orthodox to conservative) in progressive Muslim circles. And I hear a lot of stories of people there who got burnt out by the rigidity of orthodox Islam, floated on the edges or even left, but then found another way back in. It happens a fair amount these days. 

Maybe the best thing is to stop worrying “what if” and just release the reins and let the chips fall where they will. In Iran, there is over a millennium of Islamic culture woven deep into the air of the place, and greater Persia was full of artists and poets and mystics and architects and philosophers. If the youth of Iran are burnt out and repulsed by the Islam of the fuqaha, there is still time for them to find one of these other roads back in. But if they just as a generation come to hate the faith, it becomes way harder.

This generation of youth—these are the people who will have to raise the next generation after. What do you want these future parents to say to their children about Islam? So if you continue to drive people away, then the whole project will die soon enough anyway.

According to a 2014 Pew Research Study, the top ten countries with the highest percentage of anti-American sentiment included: Egyptians and Jordanians tied for first place with 85%, followed by Turkey with 73%, then Russia with 71%, the Palestinian Territories with 66%, Greece ranks 6th with 63%, Pakistan 7th with 59%, then Lebanon with 57%, followed by Tunisia and Germany with 47%. Unsurprisingly, countries with the most favorable views of the US included countries like: the Philippines with 92%, followed by Israel with 84%, South Korea with 82% etc. (Go Team, Rah! Rah! Rah!). Anti-American sentiment in Iran remains extremely high. In 2019, only 9% of Iranians held a favorable opinion of the United States. The perception of (or attraction to) America's tantalizing soft power is in shambles. The assassination of General Soleimani united the country in a way that hasn't been seen in decades. Only 30% of Iranians feel Western nations will uphold their end of the JCPOA. Only 12% of Iranians (the ones behind the riots) feel America is an ideal model for its freedoms, values and an archetype worth emulating.  

Edited by Eddie Mecca
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On 9/20/2022 at 7:48 PM, starlight said:

???? Sorry?

Regardless of ones gender or religious practices , a human was beaten to death. 

Bismehe Ta3ala 

Assalam Alikum Sister Star

Remember this post?

I followed up by asking you a couple questions.

You totally ignored my questions and now your latest response was asking me not to interact with you.

I don't know what problems you are going through right now, but I hope you get help.

I would have thought the amount of years you spent on SC, you would have correct information about me. 

But it is post "pandemic" era, many people have changed.

I wasn't holding your feet to the fire, I was asking sincerely and with care, because believe it or not, I care for my Shia brothers and sisters.  I'm not cold and insensitive.  Even if people say, "this is the internet", I know you are a human being and I have read your story and you have been through so much in life.

So I look at you as a soul and not just someone on the internet.  You helped me with understanding salat al layl years ago, and I'm greatful for you and God reward you for teaching me.

So if you don't want nothing to do with me, that's your prerogative, but you are still my sister in Islam.  God bless you and your family.

I hope your mother is well and in good health.

M3 Salamah, FE AMIN ALLAH 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Laayla said:

So if you don't want nothing to do with me, that's your prerogative, but you are still my sister in Islam.  God bless you and your family.

I hope your mother is well and in good health.

This is the kind of post which is heartwarming and shows care for each other, the characteristics of Shia ney Ali.

There is hadeeth regarding Salman Farsi and Abu Dharr ghaffari 

By Allah (I swear), if Abu-Dharr knew what was in the heart of Salman, he would kill him, though Allah had made a contract of brotherhood between them. 

We can agree to disagree, but we should not break the bonds of sisterhood or Brotherhood.

Especially over Zionist and western media lies...that's what shaytan wants to break our bonds, if we are bonded together under the flag of our Imam z there is no false narrative and no force on earth which can conquer us. See the power of Arbaeen of Imam Husain grow, see the power of our ummah resist temptation and fight for our rights.

Makr wa Makrullah,  Inallah khairul Makeyreen, Watch the western powers,  like the meccan kuffar, destroy each other with meticulous planning.

 

 

 

Edited by Hasani Samnani
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9 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

 

Salam his assasination so then his martyrdom is true but onth e other hand there has not been a protest by Baloch people which in reality members of so called" Jaish ul-Adl " (Jaish ul-Zulm in reality)  have attcked to Friday prayers when people have been leaving  Jameh Mosque of Makki of Zahedan  (greatest sunni mosque in Zahedan)   by guns which then they have attcked to a police station & medical center & hospital which he has been martyred for protection of medical center & hospital which so called " Jaish ul-Adl " (Jaish ul-Zulm in reality)  has accepted responsibilty of all of attacks which two members of it " Yaser sha bakhs" & " Abdul Majid Rigi" has been killed by security forces which number of casualities have been 39 injured & dead in totall .

Quote

Why did the Intelligence Commander of the Sistan and Baluchistan Army go to the field himself?
 
According to the protocols, the intelligence commander of the provincial corps does not need to be in the field when the situation is under control.
 
According to informed sources, when Martyr Mousavi was informed about the terrorist attack on a medical center and hospital based on the news and evidence, he preferred to be personally present in the field to prevent a humanitarian disaster.

https://www.dana.ir/news/1900265.html/سید-علی-موسوی-چرا-شهید-شد----چرا-فرمانده-اطلاعات-سپاه-سیستان-و-بلوچستان-خودش-به-میدان-رفت

http://www.didbaniran.ir/بخش-اجتماعی-حوادث-5/140304-مسئول-اطلاعات-سپاه-استان-سیستان-بلوچستان-به-شهادت-رسید

https://www.imna.ir/news/608783/شهادت-مقام-ارشد-سپاه-در-سیستان-و-بلوچستان

32 injured + 3 martyrs from IRGC & Basij  , 19 dead & 20 injured from people including police forces 

https://www.irna.ir/news/84900899/سه-نفر-از-نیروهای-سپاه-و-بسیج-در-حادثه-تروریستی-زاهدان-به-شهادت

http://www.ensafnews.com/373195/تسنیم-فرمانده-اطلاعات-سپاه-سیستان-و-بل/

https://www.entekhab.ir/fa/news/696945/بیانیه-سپاه-سیستان-و-بلوچستان-درباره-حادثه-زاهدان-معاون-اطلاعات-سپاه-استان-که-در-این-حمله-مجروح-شده-بود-به-شهادت-رسید-تعدادی-از-تروریست‌های-تجزیه-طلب-به-هلاکت-رسیدند-مهاجمان-اقدام-به-تیراندازی-کور-در-خیابان‌ها-و-معابر-عمومی-در-سطح-شهر-کرده-بودند

https://www.tasnimnews.com/fa/news/1401/07/08/2781748/جزئیات-جدید-از-حوادث-امروز-زاهدان-حمله-تروریستی-به-3-کلانتری-بسیاری-از-مهاجمان-شناسایی-شدند

 

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10 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

 

Salam this information has not been approved by any Iranian source likewise Iran's Intelligence Ministry which only anti Iranin so called news agencies likewise "Iran International " has accused Iran to it which between reliable sources it has been only mentioned by Sputnik Farsi without mentioning source of it which rest of news of arresting foreigeners only has been spread by anti Iran media which it seems these so caaled foreigeners have been have been from members of MKO & pankurd  terrorists with "German, Polish, French, Italian, Dutch, and Swedish" passports 

Quote

Iranian media reported the arrest of some foreign nationals in the demonstrations of recent days after the death of Mahsa Amini; 
According to Sputnik, Iran arrested 9 citizens of Germany, Poland, Italy, France, Holland, Sweden, etc. for participating in the rebellion.

 

Quote

In a statement about the recent events in the country, the Ministry of Information of Iran announced: In the past days, 49 agents and associates of the MKO (Hypocrites) [terrorist]  cult have been arrested.

Mentioned people  according to the orders of the Albanian terrorists have been  involved in , from producing fake news that incites the rioters to organizing terror and destruction, directing slogans, being directly present at the scenes of street riots and destroying public property, providing various equipment to confront the police and incendiary materials for setting fire , Public and private places 


2- The arrest of 77 members of Kurdistan gangs, including the official mercenaries of the Zionist gangs known as Kumuleh, Democrat, Pak, Pejak, and some of the high-ranking cadres of these gangs who were conspiring against the oppressed people of Kurdistan on both sides of the western borders of the country. Among those  who have been arrested, there is a prominent cadre and a member of the center of one of the groups that resides in the Kurdistan region of Iraq. He received military training in the American-Zionist bases of the mentioned region and is known as an outstanding military commander. He was designing, organizing and directing the riotous cells for the western region of the country, who was arrested and transferred to predetermined locations during a surprise operation and is currently in prison.


While monitoring the embassies whose agents had the slightest involvement or entering the scene of disturbances, the relevant diplomats were duly warned. including the embassies of Germany, France, England, Sweden and...

While monitoring the embassies whose agents had the slightest involvement or entering the scene of disturbances, the relevant diplomats were duly warned. including the embassies of Germany, France, England, Sweden and...

https://spnfa.ir/20220930/ایران--شهروند-آلمان-لهستان-ایتالیا-فرانسه-هلند-سوئد-و-را-به-دلیل-شرکت-در-شورش-دستگیر-کرد-12720557.html

 

 

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19 hours ago, Guest goldenegg said:

Those bases are only here to protect their allies.  Iran does not want just  nuclear bombs because they want protect their country from west. They want nuclear bombs because this will allow them to conquer other nations like Russia is right now doing. Iran is  already doing it in Iraq, Syria, lebanon by  buying the politics/Militias. . Nuclear bomb allow them to conquer Iraq without  west  intervene militarily. If Saddam managed to build nuclear bomb. Kuwait and Khuzestan  would be part of the iraq.

This is totally nonsense based on american propganda against Iran because it's crystal clear that Iran has  not wanted nuclear bombs which Iran won't want nuclear bombs  in future too in similar fashion accusing Iran to buying the politics/Militias in iraq is another propaganda of America-KSA-Israel against Iran which even cursed Saddam has managed to build nuclear bomb he won't had any part of Iran specially Khuzestan .

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Posted (edited)
On 9/29/2022 at 3:44 PM, kadhim said:

The “WF” they agree on is the “traditional WF” of caring for orphans, widows, disabled people, etc who lack a family guardian. 

I distinguished this above from the “modern” WF, the mutlaq version of Khomeini, the one about running states.

Salam this is clearly not definition of “traditional WF” which you stubbornly try to define a simple guardianship  " of caring for orphans, widows, disabled people, etc who lack a family" as “traditional WF”which just makes it a joke due to your effort for degrading status of any Marja specially Wf into a simple  social worker due to your grudge & lack of information & knowledge .

which clearly there is no differnce in definition of  “traditional WF” &  “modern WF”which in  losing battle you want to show these as two different things which completly these are same things which Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) has inserted WF  from being passive in politics into dynamic phase of WF which according to martyr Sadr (رضي الله عنه) , his success & success of Islamic revolution of Iran have been fulfilling plan of all infallibe Imams after a long time of martyrdom & sacrifice of them .

Mutlaq is not a new word which Sayyid Husayn Burujirdi (رضي الله عنه) has been last traditional  Mutlaq WF 

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 He was the leader of Shi'a seminary of Qom for 17 years and was officially the only Shi'a religious leader for 15 years

which rule of him has been more than a simple social worker which as last traditional  WF , he has believed in participating in political activities & fighting with Israel which Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) has followed his way so then Imam Khomeini (رضي الله عنه) promoted WF from being passive in politics into being active in politics although all of Shia marjas have done great charity works as fundemetal duty of any marja which it's a part of their job through spending Khums in charities  not as only  definotion of WF. 

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Politics
As indicated by his support for Ayatollah Sayyid Abu l-Qasim Kashani, Ayatullah Burujirdi believed in participating in political activities for the purpose of defending religion.

He held a firm and clear position in opposition to Israel. In 1948, he issued an announcement condemning the occupation of Palestine and wished victory for the Palestinian people.[13]

 

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Charitable Works

250px-Islamic_Center_Hamburg.jpg
 
Islamic Center of Hamburg, Germany, one of the Ayatollah Burujirdi's social services.
250px-Azam_Mosque.jpg
 
A'zam Mosque, Qom built by the order of Ayatollah Burujirdi.

According to Martyr Mutahhari, Ayatollah Burujirdi was eager to establish schools with religious management so that future generations would become religious and knowledgeable. He thus spent a considerable amount of religious tax to carry out this task.[12]

Ayatullah Burujurdi invited famous people and businessmen to his house and requested them to financially help the needy. Because of World War II, the price of food had gone up in Borujerd and the people were living in hardship. He himself spent much of his property for this cause.

The city of Borujerd also lacked electricity, but by the order of Ayatollah Burujirdi and the help of some religious people, a power plant was constructed to rectify the problem.

Under his leadership, many political and social changes took place in the administration of seminaries and publication of religious books. Furthermore, many religious scholars were sent to other cities and countries to preach religious beliefs and fulfill the religious needs of people.

Some of the charitable and religious organizations which were built during his time are: 'A'zam Mosque in the Holy Shrine of Lady Fatima al-Ma'suma (a) in Qom, Baghdad Mosque, a hospital in Najaf, Neku'i hospital in Qom, and the Islamic center in Hamburg, Germany.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Sayyid_Husayn_Burujirdi

Edited by Hameedeh
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4 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

although all of Shia marjas have done great charity works as fundemetal (sic) duty of any marja which it's a part of their job through spending Khums in charities 

Yes, charity by way of part of the khums money is also part of the package of traditional marjaiyyah and traditional WF.    Never denied that. 

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On 9/30/2022 at 2:14 PM, Ibn Tayyar said:

There is no question that modern Western society would agree that amputating someone for stealing would be looked at as a vile act, and people would certainly feel sorry for the thief and would see him as a victim of a medieval punishment, regardless of his criminality.

I also understand your point about connecting disability to crime, but I don't believe the point of the Hadd is to amputate people so that they can be identified.

What I didn't find strong is that the stigma would make it hard to incorporate a thief back into society in this day and era, as opposed to the early Islamic age, considering the fact that having a working hand in those days was more necessary in the old societies for occupational purposes.

I don’t think so either, but I’ve seen it being argued for far too often. It’s quite disturbing, really. That the whole purpose of a shari’i amputation is so that a thief would be identified - which really just means that this thief and his family would be serving a punishment for the rest of their lives because it would be known that he lost a hand by way of punishment for theft.

It’s probably why the conditions were set so high anyway.

On 9/30/2022 at 2:14 PM, Ibn Tayyar said:

Nope, imprisonment in and of itself was a hadd, not a ta'zir. 

The first time someone steals, you cut off the fingers of their right hand. But what if they repeat it again and again? Well, another hadd exists for that. 

قال: إذا أُخذ السارق قطعت يده من وسط الكفّ، فإن عاد قطعت رجله من وسط القدم، فإن عاد استودع السجن، فإن سرق في السجن قتل

This is a reliable hadith, among more, which explains the process.

And the process in the hadith is as Sayyed Al-Khoei mentions here:

2805. If a person who is adult and sane steals 3 3/5 grains of coined gold or anything of equivalent value, and he satisfies the conditions prescribed for it in law, four fingers of his right hand should be cut from their root on his first offence, and the palm of his hand and the thumb should be allowed to remain in tact. If he repeats the offence his left foot should be cut off from the middle and if he steals for the third time, he should be imprisoned for life and his expenses should be paid from the public treasury (Bait ul Maal) and in case he commits theft for the fourth time, whether in the prison or outside it, he should be killed.

I am not expecting you to answer this, but I'll still put it here anyway for those who might be reading along.

Sayyid al-Khu’i mentions that “if he steals for the third time, he should be imprisoned for life” but then immediately goes on to mention that “if he commits theft for the fourth time, whether in the prison or outside it..” So which one is it? I mean to ask, if the hadd for repeated offense for the third time is life imprisonment, then why is there any question about committing theft 'outside' of prison again for the fourth time? Is the length of imprisonment discretionary?

Just an an overview of Islamic history, imprisonments don’t seem to be a common, formalized method of punishment until the Abbasid and Seljuq eras, who used them for petty offenses, but also as a substitute for hadd at times. ‘Umar b. al-Khattab actually even suspended the amputation punishment entirely during a period of famine and was not known to use prisons as an alternative form of punishment either.

But if imprisonment is a known hadd punishment - which I take it is according to the information you provided - the only thing that I can make of that after an amputation, it would be exceedingly improbable that someone would commit the same crime again, therefore keeping jails practically out of use. Also, it's good to note that if life imprisonment is the last hadd before a death sentence is pronounced, it says a lot about the context we're in. It just shows me that prison was not going to be a very persuasive first-time caution sign for people in that sort of warring society. And an amputation was probably the more optimal deterrent, which would have accomplished the mission of keeping people out of jails. I believe this was important, simply because having that many inmates was going to be very counterproductive. Also quite counterintuitive in a place like Arabia.

 

On 9/30/2022 at 2:14 PM, Ibn Tayyar said:

2) It is however not true that imprisonment was not used in early Islamic Arabia, as it was used apparently used by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) in the case of those who do not pay back their debt, although it is disputed by the fuqaha on whether he (عليه السلام) used it  to investigate someone's status (whether they have the ability to pay) or whether it was a punishment to force them to pay knowing they have the ability to.

The one used in Basra, I believe? That was just a temporary detention center, yes. It was for people whose investigations were pending.

 

On 9/30/2022 at 2:14 PM, Ibn Tayyar said:

I'm asking; if deterrence is the end goal of punishments, why was lashing not used as a punishment for stealing?

Why was a more severe punishment in amputation necessary? 

Would lashing only deter a potential fornicator, as opposed to a thief who would somehow require a more severe punishment in order to achieve deterrence from stealing in society?

I think it’s probably because theft is a breach of private property rights. On the other hand, fornication does not involve any violation of rights and  is usually consensual, unless it’s a case of rape for which - in the Hanafi maddhab for instance - the hadd was applied for zina and an additional ta’zir was applied for rape.

Other societies also had hierarchies of punishments; the bigger the crime, the more severe the punishment.

 

On 9/30/2022 at 2:14 PM, Ibn Tayyar said:

This is not to say that the ahkam do not have a reason behind them as they very well may have one, but that we do not need to know the reason, and in the event that we do then that is a plus, but not a necessity.

Most Muslims, for example, when they go to Hajj, do not know the reasons behind most of the rites that are performed, but they do it anyway with the intention of nearness and obedience. There was no necessity for them to "make sense" of why they are engaging in actions that non-Muslims would see as absurd.

Yes, that is true. I just believe that when we are dealing with some high-minded generic Islamic objectives, like establishing justice, we need to take a step back and see where the dots are failing to connect in the big social justice puzzle. Simply resorting to the "well, things don't need to make sense" is a good sell for rituals and philosophy, but it sounds like lazy attitude in face of imperative social matters where the image and the future of Islam is at stake. In such a hyper-competitive world, our rulings don't really have any monopoly anymore, and I think if we want to protect whatever remains of the shari'a we have left, we need to start taking into account people's current state of affairs and do a better job at keeping up with the world. To be fair, I think the Shi'a have done some good work already, but we do need to iron out some tough kinks.

 

On 9/30/2022 at 2:14 PM, Ibn Tayyar said:

Those hadiths were understood to be ma'soom specific and I have seen some Shi'a use them as proof that the hudood should only be performed by a ma'soom, which is actually a belief that was held by some fuqaha both past and present, although it was not the mashoor view.

The idea is that only the ma'soom who is granted knowledge which we do not have, will know if certain exceptions can be made. (this can be an argument that hudood should only be performed by a ma'soom).

In that hadith you have cited, the Imam (عليه السلام) for example mentions that the Angels have wept for the man in question, so Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) had accepted his repentance, something which we obviously would not know of, and so therefore we can only implement what we have been given, which is to rule by what is apparent to us (witnesses, confessions etc.)

So I would say the reconciliation is that this would be the exception to the rule, which would concern the ma'soom alone.

Fair enough, but as you pointed out, the discord here is if a ghayr ma’soom should ever implement hudood knowing that he may err? As in, he can certainly just go off of the evidence that is made apparent to him, but he will never know with absolute certainty if the person in question deserves to be penalized under hudood punishments - which undoubtedly were revealed to a ma’sum and were best applied by the ma’sumeen. So, for the sake of being least unjust, it may be better for a haakim to choose an alternative method of punishment in place of traditional shari’a

 

On 9/30/2022 at 2:14 PM, Ibn Tayyar said:

Finally I would like to say that I have enjoyed this discussion with you brother, but I believe this thread should be more concerned about the topic in question which is the current situation in Iran and any potential updates with the protest situation.

I will await and read your response to this insha Allah, but I won't respond to back. I will say that I have already learned and opened my mind to a few things that you have said, and for that I am grateful. Thank you and stay blessed brother.

I’d just like to say, you’re someone who stands out among the crowd for all the good reasons. I always have something valuable to learn from you. So thank you for that. And thank you for engaging in this discussion. Stay blessed, akhi

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11 hours ago, VoidVortex said:

MashaAllah. Thanks for sharing.

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A hacker group:

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published the photos and personal information on Sunday of Iranians they claim were the morality police officers who arrested and beat Mahsa Amini, leading to her death.

I am not publishing any links or names for obvious reasons.

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On 10/2/2022 at 3:55 AM, EiE said:

I can't read it, but if it's true, it wouldn't surprise me.
Can any of this be verified, though?

Salam this is an example of mixing truth with falshood which pro-reformists sites have tried to use these type of  immigrations as a political tool against  president Raisi by accusing him that he & his party has double standards about immigration while these pro-reformists sites have censored information which whole of these immigrations have happened when their party has been in power which majority of children of politicians & authorities have migrated to America & Britain & other foreign countries by support of reformist party while after election of president Raisi ratio of these political immigrations reached to near zero due to policy Principalist party & efforts of president Raisi. 

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Iran arrests Rafsanjani's daughter on charges of inciting riots

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Iranian security forces have arrested Faezeh Hashemi, the daughter of former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, on charges of "inciting riots."

Iran's Tasnim news agency said Faezeh "has a previous record of arrests due to her direct presence in some past protests."

 

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Faezeh, 59, is the daughter of Hashemi Rafsanjani, the former moderate president who called for rapprochement with the West and the US.

 

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20220928-iran-arrests-rafsanjanis-daughter-on-charges-of-inciting-riots/

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She has clashed with authorities over government policies before, being arrested after protests in 2009 and indicted this year on charges of sacrilege and acting against the regime, after allegations that she insulted the Prophet Muhammad.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/iran-arrests-ex-president-s-daughter-faezeh-hashemi-for-inciting-rioters-101664348720383.html

Ex-Iranian president’s daughter indicted after ‘insulting’ Islam’s Prophet

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Recently, Fa’ezeh Hashemi angered many in Iran by making disrespectful comments against Prophet Muhammad, who she claimed had “wasted” the rich assets of his wife hazrat Khadijah.

 

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Days earlier, she had also hit out at the activities of Iran’s Islamic Revolution Guards Corps (IRGC), an official division of the country’s Armed Forces, and said the elite military force should remain on the US sanctions list.

Those comments also triggered outrage in Iran, with thousands of people signing an online petition calling for Hashemi Rafsanjani to stand trial.

https://ifpnews.com/iran-faezeh-hashemi-rafsanjani-indicted/

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Posted (edited)
On 9/30/2022 at 7:47 PM, Zainuu said:

Yeah. That's hypocrisy and I can definitely anticipate that it might be happening on the ministerial level.

IR leadership should keep a strict check on such people and stop them from entering high ranking government positions.

Actually, there are loopholes, who denies that but the solution is not riots. Solution is not western propaganda. Solution is not attacking the entire Islamic Republic ideology.

In India, there maybe rarely one or two people in the parliament who aren't corrupt. Top to bottom the entire politics is based on corruption. But Indians don't tear down their constitution to bring a change.

I agree that the solution is not riots but they dont give enough opportunity to the opponents to say their words or hold peaceful demonstrations.

Edited by shadow_of_light
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8 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

agree that the solution is not riots but they dont give enough opportunity to the opponents to say their words or hold peaceful demonstrations.

That still isn't any good excuse for rioting.

Also, I do suspect that permission for protests are not given. Every protest that has happened in Iran (genuine or not) were finally exploited by riots.

Actually, the only solution is that Iran must get harsh now. Ban these BBC and VOA types who utter fake news and plot against the system. They are known agents so action must be taken. Then, they must tighten the security apparatus of the country. All the CIA, NSA, Mossad, MEK, pro shah must be caught and executed or jailed for life.

I believe security is weak. Spies have a lot of information about the nation which they shouldn't have. They also have a good potential to influence anything for there agendas. That's dangerous.

If this happens, it will definitely help even the Iranians to voice there opinion and to decrease the gap between the authorities and the people.

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Posted (edited)
On 9/30/2022 at 8:00 PM, Abu Hadi said:

I understand why they feel furious, because they see this as part of a 'class system' where some have privileges that others don't have. If that is truly the case, i.e. that they are 'trading in influence' in order to give their children an unfair advantage over other Iranians, I would agree that is wrong, and if they are doing this they should be punished in some way. 

 I doubt that they would give a visa to any Iranian govt official or someone who has an official connection, or any of their children, if they knew that they were their children. The only place where their are govt officials from Iran is in New York, at the UN. Even there, the only ones they give visas to are the ones they are required legally to let in, so that they can participate in meetings at U.N. Headquarters. 

 

They are not punished. They even at least say something like "i apologize for my children's mistakes. I dont approve of their deeds". They ignore people's feelings. If they were more intelligent, they would realize that behaving like that, instead of denying or justifying or ignoring and remaining silent, would be of benefit to themselves.

Fatemeh Larijani has/ had h1b visa. His father is the former speaker of the parliament.

Edited by shadow_of_light
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6 hours ago, Zainuu said:

That still isn't any good excuse for rioting.

Also, I do suspect that permission for protests are not given. Every protest that has happened in Iran (genuine or not) were finally exploited by riots.

Actually, the only solution is that Iran must get harsh now. Ban these BBC and VOA types who utter fake news and plot against the system. They are known agents so action must be taken. Then, they must tighten the security apparatus of the country. All the CIA, NSA, Mossad, MEK, pro shah must be caught and executed or jailed for life.

I believe security is weak. Spies have a lot of information about the nation which they shouldn't have. They also have a good potential to influence anything for there agendas. That's dangerous.

If this happens, it will definitely help even the Iranians to voice there opinion and to decrease the gap between the authorities and the people.

No amount of incitement would be effective if people were content.

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definitely help even the Iranians to voice there opinion and to decrease the gap between the authorities and the people.

Has not worked in the past and currently. I doubt more of the same will work in the future.

People know that their life is in danger from the state if they protest, and despite this, some people are so dissatisfied, they are willing to die, to throw their life away, because they find their circumstances so intolerable.

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“I state it clearly that these developments were planned by America, the Zionist regime and their acolytes. Their main problem is with a strong and independent Iran and the country’s progress. The Iranian nation proved to be fairly strong during recent events and will bravely come onto the scene wherever necessary in the future,” the Leader said.

“During the latest developments, injustice was done to the country’s law enforcement forces, the Basij and the Iranian nation. Of course, the Iranian nation emerged completely strong as it did before and will do so in the future,” he added.

Ayatollah Khamenei also said that although Amini’s death was heart-breaking, the ensuing riots were not natural as groups of people caused social disturbances on the streets, burnt copies of the Holy Qur’an, harassed veiled women, and set mosques, religious congregational halls and private cars on fire.

“If it were not for the young girl, they would have invented another excuse to create insecurity and trigger riots in the country on the first day of [the Persian calendar month of] Mehr this year,” he maintained.

“Many riots broke out across the world, including in Europe. There are riots every now and then in France and Paris in particular. But the question is: Has it ever been the case for the US president and the House of Representatives to support the rioters and make statements? Is there another case where they have sent messages and stated that they are with them? Is there another case where mass media affiliated with American capitalism and their mercenaries in the region, including the Saudis, have supported rioters in other countries? And is there a case where Americans have announced that we will provide certain internet hardware or software to rioters so that they can communicate easily with each other?” the Leader added.

 

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Ayatollah Khamenei went on to say that such support has, on the contrary, happened several times in Iran, and clearly points to the fact that foreign powers are behind recent events in the country.

He underlined that Americans’ expression of regret for Amini’s death is artificial. “They are happy because of finding an excuse to foment insecurity,” he said.

Elsewhere in his remarks, Ayatollah Khamenei pointed to the country’s progress in all sectors, efforts aimed at facilitating domestic production, activation of knowledge-based companies, and the country’s ability to neutralize Western sanctions.

“They (enemies) do not want such progress to happen in the country, and have plotted to close universities, create insecurity on the streets, and engage state officials with new issues in the northwestern and southeastern flanks of the country in order to stop the growth,” the Leader said.

He emphasized that enemies are gravely mistaken in their calculations, and their plots will not yield anything at all.

Ayatollah Khamenei stressed that the US is not only against the Islamic Republic but also against a strong and independent Iran, adding, “They are looking for Iran of the Pahlavi era, which obeyed their orders and was a milking cow to them.”

The Leader of the Islamic Revolution also pointed to the stances of some Iranian sports figures and artists regarding the latest riots in Iran, noting, “In my opinion, these positions are of no importance and one should not be sensitive about them.”

 

Ayatollah Khamenei: Violent riots in Iran 'planned by US and Zionist regime' (presstv.ir)

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4 hours ago, khizarr said:

^ Ah, the "Zionist scheme" back at it again. Who would've thought! With all due respect, Ayatullah, it's time we come up with a new excuse. Seriously. Enough is enough.

Personally, I do feel the government should've handled this better than what they have. Also, I don't see it as the only reason but do you really believe Israel/ the U.S and whoever else, is not frothing at the mouth regarding what is happening?

On social media right now there is enough anti-Iran, anti-Islamic rhetoric that I would be surprised if Iran's opposition is not fueling the flame

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Young people suffering from cardiac arrests without prior symptoms??

I was shocked when I read this in the Western media. I thought, how can you question the police's narration of how Mahsa's death happened because of her not having any prior symptoms, then go on to say that people can have heart attacks without prior symptoms? It was unbelievable. Anyway, enough of my waffling, here's the article.

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Stuart had suffered a sudden cardiac arrest and couldn't be revived.

He was 34. He didn't smoke, rarely drank, and was fit and healthy. He didn't have any underlying medical conditions and there were no warnings of what was to come.

His heart simply stopped beating.

"His heart simply stopped beating." Hmm. Remind you of someone? Perhaps a 22-year-old woman in Iran? idk.

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One of the most startling discoveries was that about a quarter of all people aged under 50 who died during that time period, died as a result of sudden, out-of-hospital cardiac arrest, something pointed out by Baker Institute cardiologist and report co-author Elizabeth Paratz.
...
Researchers found that, in younger people, cardiac arrest was more likely to be the result of a genetic mutation and many didn't have any symptoms.
...
While around half of the cases reviewed were later found to have an underlying cardiac cause, many didn't have any symptoms or obvious cause.
...
"The traditional figure had been that, maybe, up to a third of people who have a cardiac arrest, the cardiac arrest is the first sign of trouble — but that was for all ages," Professor Paratz said.
...
"In young people who appear outwardly healthy, that figure was even more frightening — it was 77 per cent."

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-10-03/research-unexplained-cardiac-arrest-young-australians/101423248

I'll let you come to conclusions.

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9 hours ago, -Rejector- said:

Young people suffering from cardiac arrests without prior symptoms??

I was shocked when I read this in the Western media. I thought, how can you question the police's narration of how Mahsa's death happened because of her not having any prior symptoms, then go on to say that people can have heart attacks without prior symptoms? It was unbelievable. Anyway, enough of my waffling, here's the article.

"His heart simply stopped beating." Hmm. Remind you of someone? Perhaps a 22-year-old woman in Iran? idk.

I'll let you come to conclusions.

Was she vaccinated?

I ask because more than few people, young and old, are dropping like flies from "unknown" causes in North America.

There have been a few media reports about this, apparently some life insurance companies are a bit concerned, but not much in the way of discussion has emerged.

I can provide some links if someone asks.

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Posted (edited)

"This week, the United States will be imposing further costs on perpetrators of violence against peaceful protesters. We will continue holding Iranian officials accountable and supporting the rights of Iranians to protest freely," Biden said.

He care so much about Iranian people. 

Edited by Abu Nur
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'If I was an Iranian' George Galloway (1 min 30 sec)

 

 

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