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In the Name of God بسم الله

Mahsa Amini, 22-year old Iranian, dies after morality police arrest

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A very interesting and high-quality debate.

5 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

Shi'a traditionalist clergy disagreed among themselves who on should be the executive and what their role should be. A faqih? A group of fuqaha? A King that is restricted by the fuqaha? Should a parliament exist? 

Pardon me for my interjection, dare I ask, shouldn’t the 12th Imam be guiding them and clearing their differences to keep all on the right track?

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On 9/27/2022 at 3:34 PM, khizarr said:

*shrugs* I don't accredit the decline of Christianity to state-church separation. There's always been much more to it. What the separation did do was eventually allow people to stop pretending like they ever had any real, grounded faith in the first place. But, in reality, Christianity was always quite poor in its theological strength, and the doctrine wouldn't have been much of a sell once people started gaining access to information that was once only available to upper-class intellectuals (i.e. Enlightenment period). This is just one of many rudimentary elements for why Christianity started to wane. I won't go over all of the reasons here. Speaking about American Evangelicalism isn't good for my health anyway.
 

Why are you using the word "society"? I never suggested that Islam should be separated from society. I'm saying there should be a buffer between state and religion. They should not be contaminated by each other. Religious institutions, the ones that are in the "society" to guide "society", should by all means continue their work. 

 

Actually, I want you to explain this one. Because I can take all of what you said and reword it like this: 

Without state enforcement, religion will be lost, therefore Islam must anchor itself to a state to have a chance at survival, and the Muslims are a people that need the deen to be forced onto them in order to keep them in the habit of practicing it, lest they lose belief (even though belief comes before practice, but okay, let's roll with it). 

 

Is this what you're essentially saying? Or am I missing something here? 
 

Why, what's wrong with "democratic" countries? Do people stop practicing Islam in democratic countries? The West has the likes of Canada and New Zealand and Britain, where Islam has prospered most organically, without any kind of coercion. Where Muslims have acquired wealth, that they can then spend in the way of Islam. And they do. Without anyone to stop them. Why is this so problematic to you? Why would someone not want this? 
 

 

And? I mean, both of them were involved in a whole lot of other things as well..

Also, this is not a good example to use, as their situation was unique in the history of Islam. Muhammad (s) and Ali (a) were, more or less, the founding fathers of Islam with the foremost responsibility to nourish the religion in its state of infancy. They were the trailblazers. They had great insight and understood that establishing Islam, by tying it to the state for a while, was the need of the time. But once the religion was established, and that need was fulfilled, the duty could be passed onto another branch of society (the scholars, for example). Contrary to the Prophet (s) and 'Ali b. Abi Talib (and his two sons, to some extent), most of the other aimmah were not involved in the political sphere and did not desire to fuse religion with politics at all. There is a very clear process of evolution here that cannot be disregarded. 
 

The Iranian regime has a lot to lose by oppressing people on a large(r) scale. It's not like they have much else going for them - they have provided no economic relief for their people and they have no real good standing in the world either. In light of those two facts, they know better than to eject their mullah-ism all over the country en masse. Besides, forget international reactions. The Iranians are quite evidently a very resilient and a strikingly proud people that will not tolerate something like that happening on their own home ground. I think that was made very clear over the past week or so.

Wow, how cool is that. I haven't seen him in a while, but I'm sure he's rocking his black turban.

:ranting: I wrote a whole response to this but it didn't save :furious:

Anyway it's probably a good thing. This thread isn't really going anywhere. 

Ma3salameh.

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1 hour ago, Debate follower said:

A very interesting and high-quality debate.

Pardon me for my interjection, dare I ask, shouldn’t the 12th Imam be guiding them and clearing their differences to keep all on the right track?

There was differences among even the companions of the Imams (عليه السلام) when they were present, just as there was differences among companions of Prophets and such. 

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11 hours ago, kadhim said:

Politically, I don’t know. As I said earlier, I  tend to think the most natural evolution would be that the WF layer stays as an advisory body, but without official power to say no to anything. I think it could play an interesting role of moral guidance and authority if it distanced itself from the raw machinery of direct power. 

Yes...we gave 250 000 - 300 000 shuhada, so WF can become a clown sitting in the corner while liberals and simpletons slowly but surely give away the country. Let's just bring democracy to the army and rev guard as well while we are at it, I'm sure some open minded assembly of generals will manage that just fine. Surely, they can't be bought. Assembly of experts, meh who needs that, they should go back to teaching how to do wudhu for the millionth time and let others run the country. Great plan! 

 

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1 hour ago, root said:

Yes...we gave 250 000 - 300 000 shuhada, so WF can become a clown sitting in the corner while liberals and simpletons slowly but surely give away the country. Let's just bring democracy to the army and rev guard as well while we are at it, I'm sure some open minded assembly of generals will manage that just fine. Surely, they can't be bought. Assembly of experts, meh who needs that, they should go back to teaching how to do wudhu for the millionth time and let others run the country. Great plan! 

 

Ah. The classic sunk cost fallacy

“We have to keep driving off this cliff, otherwise our heroes died in vain!”

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3 hours ago, root said:

liberals and simpletons slowly but surely give away the country. Let's just bring democracy to the army and rev guard as well while we are at it, I'm sure some open minded assembly of generals will manage that just fine. Surely, they can't be bought

The Brother is 1000% correct and it's not a fallacy.

Sacrifices of blood and treasure should not be thrown away because a few kids are not happy they can't shop from Amazon,  watch Netflix quickly, can't watch Kardashians freely,  and go on Tiktok and display their newest dances. Because we know that Muslim kids in the west are never influenced by such materialism and cultural and religious destruction. They never get involved with drug, alcohol, x rated actions...their all angels and Mujahideen. Listen to Shaykh Azer Nasser, we had awesome discussion with him in Najaf and Karbala.

I left the Western world because of the horrible pervasive negative  influence on my kids and never looked back, despite being a born and bred American shia Muslim and even living and working in Dearborn.

Alhamdulillah , Allah has blessed us infinitely in our decisions.  I now have children in Iran who chose to study there,  and despite being blacklisted by Western Banks , we still keep accounts in Iranian Banks and support our Iranian brothers thru medical relief,  training and other means.

I'm sure that all the Pro liberal Democracy and freedom loving Muslims who continue to worship at the alter of Western Civilization, which as we know thru the white man's burden... has brought humanity to the world,  and would never steal resources,  starve people,  bomb or drone innocents, use underwater demolitions to destroy pipelines, raze countries and nations to the ground for oil and gas wealth.....yeah they should be our ideal and mentors in political science and freedom.

They're not hypocritical in the least...they have freedom of religion,  and self expression, and the press....oh yeah not if you want to wear hijab , or are a branch Davidian, or if you want to be anti Bankster ( occupy wall street gets the mace) , or if you alternative viewpoints.

Not the same MSM Pablum that our liberal brothers eat up, forget about press TV, or Aljazeera, or RT they get licenses yanked ....freedom of the press if you're showing a zionist viewpoint,  sure ...anyone else ....sorry we can't allow you to open people's eyes... talk to Julian Assange, or John Kirakou, or anyone from VIPS ( Veteran Intelligence...) ask Ray McGovern about freedom of expression when he as CIA analyst was beat down by  govt thugs. 

Those of you that still worship at the alter of Western Civilization,  stop the hypocritical crap...open your eyes....

Re read 1984 and watch V for Vendetta.

The Islamic Republic is a thorn in the throat of the Shaytan and his henchmen and henchwomen and may they continue to choke on that sharp thorn. ...., A govt dedicated to our Imam and His rule will constantly be vilified, sanctioned, conspired against even by so called Shia,  attacked, and they will never rest until WF is abolished. Imam Ali's own followers were not happy with his rule...you're expectations for a govt of Non Masoomeen is way too high.

However, there is only one govt which supports Shia when slaughtered in Iraq, or Syria, Afghanistan or Indopak, Lebanon or any other country.

I will still accept them warts and all, because they provide weapons and training and support to real Shia Mujahideen not just Western lip service when Shia blood is freely spilt. or more hypocritically support fake narratives about a medical relate death...and use it as club to destroy the  Shia ummah.

Guess who and what they are actively doing to find and oppose our Imam...

https://katehon.com/en/article/israels-hunt-imam-mahdi-iran-and-war-ukraine

read about how Sammarra Shrine was destroyed and who's DNA they were after....

Open your eyes brothers and sisters,  and stop giving aid and comfort to your enemies....that's treason...just like the treasonous brigands who revealed Hajj Soliemanis and Abu Mahdi Muhandis position to the drone/missile operators.

 

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3 hours ago, kadhim said:

sorry brother but that's false analogy and I'm surprised you used that to buttres your argument.

I expect much less simplistic thinking and a more nuanced thoughtful contrarian viewpoints. :respect:

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13 minutes ago, Hasani Samnani said:

sorry brother but that's false analogy and I'm surprised you used that to buttres your argument.

I expect much less simplistic thinking and a more nuanced thoughtful contrarian viewpoints. :respect:

“We can’t alter course at this point because we’ve invested too much by now” is the textbook definition of the sunk cost fallacy. 

Beyond that, it’s also pretty crass emotional manipulation, and in my humble opinion a disrespect to those very martyrs. 

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6 minutes ago, kadhim said:

We can’t alter course at this point because we’ve invested too much by now” is the textbook definition of the sunk cost fallacy. 

Why are we likely to continue with an investment even if it would be rational to give it up?

Sorry the reason the fallacy doesn't apply has to do with Rational choices....it would be completely irrational to give up on our objective to fulfill our goals for our Imams zahoor, because a Kurdish girl decided to be very fashionable while visiting Tehran...and had a neurovascular event....unrelated to any morality police intervention.

That flies in the face of rational thought brother....that's a whole baby bathwater argument....because of Mahsa we should destroy our assembly of experts and turn the country into Dubai....really....

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12 minutes ago, kadhim said:

emotional manipulation

Bro that's a crude description of Brother Roots argument.

If one is to look without any real emotion for Imam Husains suffering and family's suffering , and how social scientists in the west describe our Moharrum commemorative events...they say it is emotional manipulation ...I disagree violently with such a characterization,  but that's what has been written by psychosocial analysts.

Instead the mourning brings about a  resurgence of humanity and empathy and sympathy and is also beneficially cathartic which strengthens the soul...and allows us to proceed in a self actualization pathway.

Kadhim,but I say this with the greatest humility and not trying to be condescending.....but you need to see and be in Karbala on Arbaeen....first of all it's equal to 500 Hajj...so there's complete rationality of boosting your aakhirat plus points....

but it will invigorate your soul, and re inflame your passion for why you reverted,  at what I am sure was great personal cost, but it is nothing less than soul inspiring and brings out a rejuvenation in faith in our Ahlul Bayt and their guidance and greater love for humanity.

Then the days you don't always feel like fasting will be gone :pushup2:

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17 hours ago, kadhim said:

Ugh. I’m breaking my own self-imposed rule of just totally ignoring your posts, but there’s some general educational value in this case for other people, so I make a rare exception. 

No, my understanding of traditional WF is completely textbook. 

Traditional WF is a basic social welfare program. Anyone who lacks the resources to take care of themselves—orphans, mentally disabled, physically disabled, the insane, widows—and they need a guardian but don’t have family to take this on, the marjaiyyah took this on for as long as it needed to. Because it was a moral obligation of the community and because they managed the khums money, and part of it is for that. Some people like the medically insane and the mentally and physically disabled would often be under this for life. But others would graduate out of it because their lack of capability is temporary or another guardian can be found. A young man comes of age and starts a career to care for himself. A young lady on maturity or a widow remarried and finds a guardian. 

Salam You have broken it before by making funny comments & showing your immorality .

Your Understanding from WF i s wrong because you have mistaken Wali (guardain) with with WF which your definition is about description Wali (guardain) not WF 

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4) Hadith Al-Wilayah, What Does Wali Mean?

The word wali has a range of different meanings. Hans Wehr lists its various definitions:

Helper, supporter, benefactor, sponsor; friend, close associate; relative; patron, protector; legal guardian, curator, tutor; a man close to God, holy man, saint (in the popular religion of Islam); master, proprietor, possessor, owner.1

In other words, wali (ولي) only means “friend”. It cannot refer to anyone with authority. Rather, the only related word that means “master” is wali (والي). So, if the Messenger of Allah had intended ‘Ali, ‘alaihi al-salam, to be the ruler of the Muslims after him (as the Shi’ah assert), he would have used the second word, and not the first.

Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah also proposes another word:

Contrary to the absurd claims of both Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah and ‘Allamah al-Albani, the word wali (ولي) is actually the most common – of the three words – in references to authority and power. In fact, it has been used in that sense in several places in the Qur’an! The Shi’i mufassir, Shaykh al-Tabarsi (d. 548 H), for instance, says:

)والذين كفروا أولياؤهم الطاغوت (أي :متولي أمورهم وأنصارهم

(And those who disbelieve, their awliya [plural of wali] are the evil ones) [2:257], meaning: their rulers and helpers.6

 

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The wali is the wali, and every person who is the wali of the amr of anyone, he is thereby the latter’s wali.29

The wali of the amr (or simply wali al-amr) of anyone is his ruler. This is why Abu Bakr is referred to as the wali al-amr of the Muslims after the death of the Prophet. He was in charge, and had full control. In the same manner, the king of Saudi Arabia is the wali al-amr of Saudis while the British Prime Minister is the wali al-amr of Britons. The standard linguistic principle, of course, is that a synonym for wali al-amr is wali.

With that, Abu Bakr became the wali of the Muslims after the Prophet – according to Sunni Islam. The Saudi king is the wali of Saudis, and the British Prime Minister is the wali of Britons. This is a solid, undeniable reality that Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah struggles so desperately to deny, conceal and distort. This, apparently, is because it poses a direct fatal threat to the survival of Sunni Islam as a whole!

At this point, the fallacy of Shaykh Ibn Taymiyyah’s weird claim that wali relates to walayah (friendship) only, and not to wilayah (authority) is very obvious. Wali can denote either walayah or wilayah, depending on its meaning within the specific context of each case. If, as the Shi’ah claim, it really means “ruler” in the case of Hadith al-Wilayah, then it is indeed wilayah!

A rarer meaning of wali is heir. We will be discussing this definition in detail at its place.

https://www.al-islam.org/khilafah-ali-over-abu-bakr-toyib-olawuyi/4-hadith-al-wilayah-what-does-wali-mean

 

 

 

 

 

Textbook about WF 

 

The Dominion of the Wali al-Faqih

When considering that Wilayat al-Faqih represents the keystone of Imami political doctrine in the Era of Greater Occultation, it is essential that we assess the scope and domain of its authority. For our present subject, we must take into account the power of other religious authorities amongst the Imamis; the marja’ai. Does the Wali al-Faqih have authority (Wilayat) only over those who accept him as their marja’a, or those who imitate marja’ai that support the idea of Wilayat al-amma?

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Aside from the relationship between the Wali al-Faqih as a political leader and other fuqaha as marja’ai, it is also important to gauge the authority of the Wali al-Faqih regarding the Shari’ah. Is he only able to issue orders within the framework of the Islamic legal system, or is he fully authorized to make decisions even if they contradict the Shari’ah? In other words, is his license as a ruler defined by the Shari’ah, or is his authority above the Shari’ah and therefore absolute?

We can structure our analysis around two significant aspects; the people’s respect for his orders, and his respect for the Islamic legal system (Shari’ah). However, before proceeding with this discussion, we should review two important points.
Firstly, unlike Imamate, which is considered as a fundamental aspect of belief (aqueeda) in Shi’ism, Wilayat al-Faqih is a juridical (fiqh) subject matter.

Secondly, a necessary distinction must be made between a fatwa (religious decree) and hukm (order).

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As previously stated, a decree, deduced from Islamic sources and issued by a qualified faqih – fatwa – is valid and reliable for those who refer to him as their marja’a taqleed (religious authority), thus it is binding upon them to obey his fatwa. However, those who refer to other scholars as religious authorities are not obliged to observe this ruling. But an order (hukm) issued by the Wali al-Faqih is binding upon all Muslims, not merely his followers, regardless of how far his political authority might reach.

Therefore, a command issued by a jurist as Wali al-qada in the administration of justice is obligatory for everyone, even other fuqaha, because the just and capable jurist is appointed as hakim (Wali).

 

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This opinion is supported by a tradition from Imam as-Sadiq ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)), in which Umar ibn Hanzala transmits that the Imam prohibited his followers (Shi’a) to recourse to a tyrannical or illegitimate authority (taghut) to resolve their affairs. Instead they are obliged to refer to one who relates the traditions of the Ahlul-Bayt and knows what is lawful and prohibited (i.e. a faqih). Imam as-Sadiq ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)) said:
I have appointed him a hakim over you. If such a person orders (judges) according to our ruling and the person concerned does not accept it, then he has shown contempt for the ruling of God and rejects us; and he who rejects us, actually rejects Allah and such a person is close to association [Shirk] with Allah[57].

 

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there is no excuse for people to disregard or disobey his command on the grounds that he is not their marja’a.

although the opponents of Wilayat al-amma maintain that the designation of the faqih as the Imam’s deputy does not extend to political authority (Wilayat al-siyasiyya), this surely cannot imply that if the people elect a just and capable faqih as their leader, instead of an unjust person, that his leadership is some how illegitimate and people are free to disobey.

 

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Khomeini’s non-traditional new take on this was to apply this to the political affairs of all people. With the implicit or explicit assumption that all non-marjaiyyah are somehow politically mentally disabled or immature but somehow they as marjaiyyah are not. 

Distinct from all this is the general role of the marjaiyyah as expert guides to people in legal matters. Traditionally, this part did apply generally to anyone without scholarly expertise.

The incoherence of what you just wrote is that you are jumbling together these two roles in ways that are not justified traditionally speaking.

 

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the authority of a faqih endorsed by ‘hisbah’.
We noted earlier that the debate surrounding the authority of the Wali al-Faqih has two significant aspects. The second of these – the relationship between the faqih’s commands and Shari’ah – is a very new discussion in Imami political jurisprudence, whereas the first aspect has been discussed by many fuqaha.

 

 

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Imam Khomeini was perhaps the first Imami faqih who explicitly and publicly discussed the connection between governmental orders (ahkam al-hukmati) and Islamic laws (ahkam al-shari’). He firmly advocated the absolute authority of the faqih (Wilayat al-mutlaqa) and it is essential that we briefly clarify the definition of this term to avoid any misconceptions.

 

Al-Wilayat al-Mutlaqa

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The precise and correct understanding of ‘Wilayat al-mutlaqa’ has a close relationship to discussion about the nature and various kinds of ‘command’ (hukm) in Imami Jurisprudence, especially the faqih’s injunction as Wali (al-hukm al-hukmati) and its position among commands of Shari’ah.

http://shiastudies.com/en/2284/the-dominion-of-the-wali-al-faqih/

 

 

 

 

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On 9/27/2022 at 9:04 AM, khizarr said:

Contrary to the Prophet (s) and 'Ali b. Abi Talib (and his two sons, to some extent), most of the other aimmah were not involved in the political sphere and did not desire to fuse religion with politics at all. There is a very clear process of evolution here that cannot be disregarded. 

Salam this is totaly wrong conclusion because after martyrdom of Imam Hussain (عليه السلام) other Aimmah from Imam Sajad (عليه السلام) to Imam Hasan Al-Askari (عليه السلام) have been under heavy surveliance or home arresst or long term jail in order to stop them from invollving in political sphere which all them have been martyred because cursed Umayyads & Abbassids considered them as most dagerous rivals in politics & rulership because they have been De facto rulers of Muslims  which because of oppression of cursed Umayyads & Abbassids & lack of enough loyal followers they couldn't establish a government  but because of increasing their followers  cursed Umayyads & Abbassids have felt possibilty of revolution so they have martyred Aimmah  which   clearly is against your false conclusion .

15 hours ago, khizarr said:

The early Shi'a felt that Imamate was the solution, and anything else may even amount to kufr, but then the aimmah surprised them by disassociating from this madness and refusing to even try to revolt. This threw the Shi'a into disarray, and since then we've had to review a lot of our understandings on the role of the Imam. 

this is another Salafi/Wahabi accusation against Shias which Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) has rejected Abbassids offer because he knew will betray to Shias which he knew that Abbassids slogan has been a void slogan for fooling people specially Shias which after Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) when Imam Reza (عليه السلام) has accepted to be successor of Mamun so then he has explained that he has done it in similar fashion of prophet Yusuf (عليه السلام) for welfare of Shia community because all revolts at his time has been distorted by informants of Abbassids into just robbery ,banditry , banditry just for gaining wealth & power by narcistic people in name of religion . 

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5 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

it would be completely irrational to give up on our objective to fulfill our goals for our Imams zahoor, because a Kurdish girl decided to be very fashionable while visiting Tehran...and had a neurovascular event....unrelated to any morality police intervention.

Akhi. You know full well It’s obviously about way more than one girl. In the grand scheme she’s a catalyst to ignite real tensions that were already there. Her story is a lens that focuses anger that was already there. The issues go beyond this one incident and deal with systematic issues. 

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6 hours ago, Hasani Samnani said:

Kadhim,but I say this with the greatest humility and not trying to be condescending.....but you need to see and be in Karbala on Arbaeen....first of all it's equal to 500 Hajj...so there's complete rationality of boosting your aakhirat plus points....

but it will invigorate your soul, and re inflame your passion for why you reverted,  at what I am sure was great personal cost, but it is nothing less than soul inspiring and brings out a rejuvenation in faith in our Ahlul Bayt and their guidance and greater love for humanity.

Well I’m glad at least that you have the self-awareness to recognize that you’re being condescending. That’s a positive sign.

I would be happy to visit Imam Hussain one of these years. But dear God not in Muharram or Arbaeen. Too many people, too much spectacle. Give me 2 AM on a random Tuesday in another part of the year.

I really doubt that rush is going to do anything for the fasting-related brain fog that makes it hard to do my work though. 

Oh. And by the way. Where else do you think I get the fire to take you folks on 1-v-10 if not from precisely this? If I wasn’t driven by the faith in them I wouldn’t care about trying to reach any of you. 

Just an FYI. Part of humility is making an honest effort to avoid treating other people as caricatures and to try to understand people’s actual motivations. Just a tip. 

 

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11 hours ago, root said:

I'm sure some open minded assembly of generals will manage that just fine. Surely, they can't be bought.

That skepticism is fine. I welcome it. But the difference between you and I is that I consistently apply that level of skepticism to everyone without exception. Every human being—even sometimes one wearing an amamah—is human and capable of corruption. Contrary to popular perception, it’s not a magical invincibility cloak. Disclaimer: I’m not pointing any fingers here in any particular direction; I’m just stating that as a general reality of human beings. 

Say what you will about the weaknesses of democracy—they exist, they’re there, they’ve been known since philosophers like Plato first started cooking up “Philosopher King” schemes. But at least  in democracy there’s the possibility of direct accountability. You get regular chances to directly fire your leadership. That’s a handy thing. 

Contrast this with a system that by design insulates the top leadership from direct accountability and gives the scholarly leadership class sweeping operational and gatekeeping control over any and all indirect accountability mechanisms. As someone who digs political philosophy, it’s a very creative design. Plato would be proud. But the fatal flaw in it is that it depends on the incorruptibility of that leadership class and gives no mechanisms within the system to break out of that that are not controlled by the same class. Again, this is not to point any particular fingers at any particular real life people; it’s a general abstract observation. 

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They have filtered instagram and whatsapp and they (the authorities) themselves still use these platforms! What does it mean?!

We dont have access to net from around 4pm till midnight. Many people are losing their jobs due to this wrong decision. It is unfair!

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On 9/28/2022 at 2:31 AM, Qa'im said:

 Some are openly burning the Quran, the hijab, and other Islamic items.

 

There are very few people who have burnt Quran but yes, many people have lost their faith and the government is responsible for it. No enemy could make people lose their faith more successfully and quickly than our own government!

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19 minutes ago, shadow_of_light said:

They have filtered instagram and whatsapp and they (the authorities) themselves still use these platforms! What does it mean?!

We dont have access to net from around 4pm till midnight. Many people are losing their jobs due to this wrong decision. It is unfair!

It means that they try to control the ongoing riots and protest that America and west use them as proxy.

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55 minutes ago, kadhim said:

That skepticism is fine. I welcome it. But the difference between you and I is that I consistently apply that level of skepticism to everyone without exception. Every human being—even sometimes one wearing an amamah—is human and capable of corruption. Contrary to popular perception, it’s not a magical invincibility cloak. Disclaimer: I’m not pointing any fingers here in any particular direction; I’m just stating that as a general reality of human beings. 

Say what you will about the weaknesses of democracy—they exist, they’re there, they’ve been known since philosophers like Plato first started cooking up “Philosopher King” schemes. But at least  in democracy there’s the possibility of direct accountability. You get regular chances to directly fire your leadership. That’s a handy thing. 

Contrast this with a system that by design insulates the top leadership from direct accountability and gives the scholarly leadership class sweeping operational and gatekeeping control over any and all indirect accountability mechanisms. As someone who digs political philosophy, it’s a very creative design. Plato would be proud. But the fatal flaw in it is that it depends on the incorruptibility of that leadership class and gives no mechanisms within the system to break out of that that are not controlled by the same class. Again, this is not to point any particular fingers at any particular real life people; it’s a general abstract observation. 

 

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That skepticism is fine. I welcome it. But the difference between you and I is that I consistently apply that level of skepticism to everyone without exception.

And that makes you what exactly? Why on earth would I consistently apply same level of skepticism to everyone? 

 

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Every human being—even sometimes one wearing an amamah—is human and capable of corruption. Contrary to popular perception, it’s not a magical invincibility cloak. Disclaimer: I’m not pointing any fingers here in any particular direction; I’m just stating that as a general reality of human beings. 

I have no idea what that has to do with what I said. Where do you get the idea that the popular perception is that it's a magical cloak? You are just saying things now to sound like you are actually saying something. 

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Say what you will about the weaknesses of democracy—they exist, they’re there, they’ve been known since philosophers like Plato first started cooking up “Philosopher King” schemes. But at least  in democracy there’s the possibility of direct accountability. You get regular chances to directly fire your leadership. That’s a handy thing. 

Democracy has like 900 different definitions and levels. Some parts are good, some parts are bad. 

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Contrast this with a system that by design insulates the top leadership from direct accountability and gives the scholarly leadership class sweeping operational and gatekeeping control over any and all indirect accountability mechanisms.

Give me an example where scholarly leadership has done something criminal and not been held responsible? Your argument here is: "I say it so it's true". These arguments are old now, been here since the very beginning of this forum really, yet noone has really come up with anything tangle other than, "It's my opinion so I'm going to stick by it"

 

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As someone who digs political philosophy, it’s a very creative design. Plato would be proud. But the fatal flaw in it is that it depends on the incorruptibility of that leadership class and gives no mechanisms within the system to break out of that that are not controlled by the same class. Again, this is not to point any particular fingers at any particular real life people; it’s a general abstract observation. 

My abstract observation is that democracy is 9 wolves and 4 sheep deciding what to have for dinner. 

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11 hours ago, kadhim said:

Ah. The classic sunk cost fallacy

“We have to keep driving off this cliff, otherwise our heroes died in vain!”

The classic "I have nothing to respond with so I'm going to define the situation i disagree with as a cliff and use their heroes as an anchor point to make my point." Surely you can do better than that. 

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12 hours ago, Ibn Tayyar said:

There was differences among even the companions of the Imams (عليه السلام) when they were present, just as there was differences among companions of Prophets and such.

Apologies again for meandering away from the main (and very interesting) discussion – I promise that this is my last post on this issue.

One of the main mission of Prophets (peace be upon them) and Imams (may Allah be pleased with them) is to guide Mankind at large and their followers specifically to the right path if there any differences among them. This they did very conscientiously and diligently as long they were on this Earth among their followers.

According to 12er Shias the ‘Raison d'etre’ for 12th Imam’s long life till end of times is to Guide his followers in all aspects of their lives. History clearly shows that this is missing in all decisive moments in 12er history. Nothing more to add.

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40 minutes ago, root said:

Give me an example where scholarly leadership has done something criminal and not been held responsible? Your argument here is: "I say it so it's true". These arguments are old now, been here since the very beginning of this forum really, yet noone has really come up with anything tangle other than, "It's my opinion so I'm going to stick by it"

Haha. Nice try but no.

I already spent a week in the penalty box earlier this year because an overzealous mod labeled criticism of a fatwa as “insulting marjaiyyah.” I’m not going to test my luck with specific accusations of corruption. I’m going to stay nice and abstract and general. 

(Which highlights another danger of this mixing of the marjaiyyah with politics. Even far away from the system, real criticism becomes impossible because  it all gets jumbled up with the general reverence of people for the marjaiyyah and scholarly class in general.)

And anyway, the specifics are beside the point. The weaknesses I pointed out are inherent failure modes of the system to be criticized, whether those modes are exploited or not. 

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22 minutes ago, Debate follower said:

Apologies again for meandering away from the main (and very interesting) discussion – I promise that this is my last post on this issue.

One of the main mission of Prophets (peace be upon them) and Imams (may Allah be pleased with them) is to guide Mankind at large and their followers specifically to the right path if there any differences among them. This they did very conscientiously and diligently as long they were on this Earth among their followers.

According to 12er Shias the ‘Raison d'etre’ for 12th Imam’s long life till end of times is to Guide his followers in all aspects of their lives. History clearly shows that this is missing in all decisive moments in 12er history. Nothing more to add.

The Prophets (a) that succeeded Musa (a) in Bani-Israel faced similar disputes and betrayal as our Imams (a) did.  The Quran shows the disputes had nothing to do with lack of clear proofs but everything to do with envy and rebellion amongst each other.  They feigned ignorance despite the clear proofs and resorted to ambiguities when knowledge and clear guidance was extended to them.

Dawood (a) ruled, but few believed during his time.  Talut (a) won and was victorious, but little followers remained true to him when tested with restraint from drinking while thirsty.

Sulaiman (a) ruled even the most rebellious of the Jinn and had them under his control, but nations fought him accusing him of being a sorcery and when he died, was accused of being a pagan sorcerer (And still Jews till this day believed he died a polytheist pagan).

Imran (a), Zakaria (a), Yahya (a) were all killed and Isa (a) became the last candidate for the Messiah promised to rule the world from offspring of Dawood (a).  So God safeguarded him and prevented his death or he feigned death and came back while not dying after three days(appeared to be crucified but was not).

Despite Prophets (a) and revelations, mankind never been able to hold on to the guidance, as bani-Israel did not.

Then came the Quran and Ahlulbayt (a), and Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) out of his wisdom because this is the last Ahlulbayt, put an end to Nubuwa, so that if Ahlulbayt (A) rejected, the revelation component is safeguarded. But to do that, the Quran had to be written in a way that allowed tampering by meaning, so for example it says "A peace be upon the family of Yaseen" rather than "family of Mohammad" to allow enemies to change the meaning. 

So the final battle is about the meaning of Quran, and all it takes to see the clear recitation is stop rebelious envy. Stop that to towards Auli-Mohammad (a) and Quran becomes clear. Give the hadiths a chance from Ahlulbayt (a) to prove their position and it becomes clear.

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1 hour ago, kadhim said:

Respect for truthfulness? Consistency?

Those are the big ones.

You have a tendency to just use words without saying anything. I asked you why would I show the skepticism to everyone? Would you show the same skepticism to your father and a thief? If not, explain to me why  you wouldn't show the same skepticism.

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1 hour ago, kadhim said:

Haha. Nice try but no.

I already spent a week in the penalty box earlier this year because an overzealous mod labeled criticism of a fatwa as “insulting marjaiyyah.” I’m not going to test my luck with specific accusations of corruption. I’m going to stay nice and abstract and general. 

(Which highlights another danger of this mixing of the marjaiyyah with politics. Even far away from the system, real criticism becomes impossible because  it all gets jumbled up with the general reverence of people for the marjaiyyah and scholarly class in general.)

And anyway, the specifics are beside the point. The weaknesses I pointed out are inherent failure modes of the system to be criticized, whether those modes are exploited or not. 

Again you are just saying nothing here. We don't need 19 marjas to tell us how to do wudhu or where to hold our hands when praying. If that is what you have understood from what marjahiyya is then good luck to you. 

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Fun facts

Question: Who started the "garshe ershad/moral police" in Iran?

Answer: The liberal Ali Motahari who now says if you vote for me I will remove it..........

Question: Who used to mark the girls that had "bad hijab" on their forehead in public?

Answer: Akbar Ganji, the same dude that now is on BBC farsi.

 

Now go think a little.........maybe a light bulb will light up.  

 

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43 minutes ago, root said:

Again you are just saying nothing here. We don't need 19 marjas to tell us how to do wudhu or where to hold our hands when praying. If that is what you have understood from what marjahiyya is then good luck to you. 

I’m not quite clear why you are singling me out about that view of marjaiyyah as if it’s some sort of personal creation on my part. I mean, I’ve never seen a poll, but far as I am aware that’s the majority view of what marjaiyyah is amongst both lay people and the marjaiyyah itself. It’s an institution that strives to give people guidance on fiqh

I understand that you’re more aligned with the post-Khomeini WF concept, and I respect your preference there. But I think you need to tune into the concept of ikhtilaaf and be a little more accepting of those who don’t share that view. 

I have to say I find it a little odd to see a site admin on a Shia site being so contemptuous and dismissive of the field of fiqh and the maraja who practice it. It’s an odd take. 

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2 hours ago, kadhim said:

Haha. Nice try but no.

I already spent a week in the penalty box earlier this year because an overzealous mod labeled criticism of a fatwa as “insulting marjaiyyah.” I’m not going to test my luck with specific accusations of corruption. I’m going to stay nice and abstract and general. 

(Which highlights another danger of this mixing of the marjaiyyah with politics. Even far away from the system, real criticism becomes impossible because  it all gets jumbled up with the general reverence of people for the marjaiyyah and scholarly class in general.)

And anyway, the specifics are beside the point. The weaknesses I pointed out are inherent failure modes of the system to be criticized, whether those modes are exploited or not. 

It is impossible to reform what may not be examined. I believe we are seeing the results now, as in the recent past. The cycle of rebellion and repression (1,500 killed the last time) will continue.

What are we at now? Last I heard, it was 75.

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3 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

It means that they try to control the ongoing riots and protest that America and west use them as proxy.

The authorities and governors must cleary explain what their children are doing in west especially in Canada and US. Why did they immigrate to these countries and have luxurious lives there while their fathers invite people to be patient about economic problems (caused partly by the sanctions and partly by the government's mismanagement and corruption). Isnt it hypocrisy? 

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1 hour ago, root said:

You have a tendency to just use words without saying anything. I asked you why would I show the skepticism to everyone? Would you show the same skepticism to your father and a thief? If not, explain to me why  you wouldn't show the same skepticism.

Hold up here.

Why wouldn’t you have the same skepticism for the office holding clerics in Iran as you do for whatever layperson Iranian politician? You need to have a coherent answer for that. They’re all politicians in the Iranian system. 

You scoffed earlier at the idea anyone thinks an amamah or a turban is a magic shield against becoming corrupt.

But if you don’t actually think that way, why do you think the cleric politicians are off-limits for skepticism? I don’t understand your rationale.

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2 hours ago, Debate follower said:

Apologies again for meandering away from the main (and very interesting) discussion – I promise that this is my last post on this issue.

One of the main mission of Prophets (peace be upon them) and Imams (may Allah be pleased with them) is to guide Mankind at large and their followers specifically to the right path if there any differences among them. This they did very conscientiously and diligently as long they were on this Earth among their followers.

According to 12er Shias the ‘Raison d'etre’ for 12th Imam’s long life till end of times is to Guide his followers in all aspects of their lives. History clearly shows that this is missing in all decisive moments in 12er history. Nothing more to add.

The job of the Prophets (عليه السلام) and Imams (عليه السلام) is to guide people, but that does not mean their followers did not disagree amongst themselves. Even in the Prophet's time the Ummah was divided and right after his death the disputes began to be even more apparent.

An example can be taken from the stories in the Holy Qur'an, for example in the story of Harun (عليه السلام) when he was left in charge of the Israelites after Musa (عليه السلام) had left them, only for the Israelities to disobey him and follow the Samiri (la). Can one here blame Harun (عليه السلام) despite being powerless to stop them?

A similar situation arose during the times of our Imams (عليه السلام), where many of their followers lived in different parts of the Islamic Caliphate and had to rely on narrations from the Imams (عليه السلام) from certain narrators whom they trusted so that they can be guided and practice their religion. And ofcourse as we know, in the midst of this mass hadith transmission, liars and deviants would arise and also narrate from the Imams (عليه السلام), or certain narrations would be misnarrated, and therefore disputes would naturally arise.

What made this even more difficult was that we believed most of our Imams (عليه السلام) lived in taqiyya, and they feared for their life as their own death would be catastrophic for the Shi'a. 

Which brings us to the Mahdi (عليه السلام), whose situation is not very different from his fathers (عليه السلام), in that he also fears his death;


I heard Abu `Abdillah عليه السلام say: Verily the Qa’im will be occulted prior to his rising; he will be afraid – and he pointed with his hand to his stomach – meaning, [afraid of] being killed. (al-Kafi)

http://www.imamiyya.com/hadith/qiyam/the-occultation-of-the-imam

This is similar to the fear of Musa (عليه السلام) when he left his people and that of the Prophet (saww) in his earlier years when the Revelation was in secret, it is a fear for the sake of the Deen.

And finally we have the hadiths from them which are enough for us to be guided in this time, as the Imams (عليه السلام) always told us to follow the transmitters of the hadiths and that is sufficient for us, insha Allah, whether they are present or we can't get to them (such as the case is today). They themselves told us that they are the hujjah upon us, and it is commonly understood that "transmitters of hadiths" meant the fuqaha.

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