Arrangement of Quran and Messengership of Hud, Salih and Shuʿayb

[Ibn Murtuz]

Twelver Shias doubt arrangement the verses of todays Quran. They say since Uthman was the head of this process, we cannot know which verse should come after which verse. In reality, it was actually Prophet Muhammad who ordered the places and arrangement of the verses.

More details here: https://muslimanswers.net/2012/11/03/draft-article-arrangement-of-the-quran-and-twelver-shiaism/

Since you doubt it, how do you know Hud, Salih and Shuʿayb are Messengers, if you do not believe in arrangement of Quran?

How do you know 26:178 should be after 26:177, 26:143 should be after 26:142 and 26:125 should be after 26:124?

Edited September 13, 2022 by Ibn Murtuz

[Cool]

24 minutes ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

Twelver Shias doubt arrangement the verses of todays Quran.

This is a ridiculous post. Tell me which was the first verse revealed on Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? And where that verse is placed? 

I am leaving all other points you have raised at the moment. I would like to have your answer of my question and we will move ahead afterwards.

[Ibn Murtuz]

5 minutes ago, Cool said:

This is a ridiculous post. Tell me which was the first verse revealed on Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)? And where that verse is placed? 

I am leaving all other points you have raised at the moment. I would like to have your answer of my question and we will move ahead afterwards.

First verse revealed is 96:1. When I wrote "Twelver Shias doubt arrangement the verses of todays Quran." I meant the arrangement the verses of Quran we have today is what Twelver Shias doubt, but we Sunnis believe that it should be arranged like that, since Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم ordered the places and arrangement of the verses what we have today.

[Ashvazdanghe]

38 minutes ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

How do you know 26:178 should be after 26:177, 26:143 should be after 26:142 and 26:125 should be after 26:124?

Salam 

the present Quran which was last collected and compiled by Uthman, the third caliph, was certified by Imam Ali, peace be upon him.[18]

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) compiled the Quran on the basis of the chronological order of the Quran. However, since the present Quran which was compiled by Uthman was acceptable to him, he certified it and did not make his compiled version of the Quran public.

Quote

There are three opinions regarding the collection and compilation of the Quran[1]:  
1. The verses of every chapter (Sura) were revealed completely and until a chapter was not completed, another chapter would not start.
2. Several verses were revealed from every chapter and the chapters were completed gradually. The question which arises here is: Were the verses placed in different chapters of the Quran by the order of the Holy Prophet (S) or was this arrangement made during the time of the Companions?
3. The order of the verses and that of the chapters of the Quran has been decided during the period of the Companions.

 

several verses named in history were instructed by the Prophet (S) to be placed in various chapters of the Holy Quran. The Quran was first compiled by Abu Bakr, then by Uthman with no verses moved from their places. Basically, the two caliphs had nothing to do with the arrangement of the verses. Although some chapters like “Fatihat-ul Kitab” (the beginning chapter of the Book) was revealed completely[5], some other chapters especially the lengthy ones were revealed overtime and sometimes simultaneously with other verses. That is to say, some verses from every chapter were revealed and completed gradually.

Quote

The arrangement of the verses in different Quranic chapters was done as instructed by the Prophet (S) but different copies of the Holy Quran were collected during the period of Uthman and no copy would be accepted unless it was certified by at least 2 witnesses. The witnesses would have to have seen it being written down, not from memory, but at the very dictation of the prophet (S).[7]

Conclusion:

Quote

 Having said the above, it can be concluded that:
1 – The verses of the Quran, in its gradual revelation, were sometimes sent down in the form of a complete chapter and other times in the form of a few verses from a chapter.
2 – Sometimes verses were revealed from another chapter before completion of the first chapter.
3 – There were some Sahabis (Companions) who compiled the Quran by the order of the Prophet and according to his arrangement, not on the basis of the order of revelation.
4 – The arrangement of every verse in the Qur’an is tawqifi (i.e. something that has come to us from Almighty Allah).

5 – The arrangement of the chapters, as per a saying, was made during the time of the Companions especially Uthman.

6 – The collection of the Quran during the time of the Holy Prophet (S) was in fact the inscription of the revealed verses.  During the time of the first and second caliphs, different parchments and the scattered verses were collected and made available in a single collection.

Finally, the collection of the Quran during the period of the third caliph helped do away with different recitations that had come into being over the years.

7 – Imam Ali ((عليه السلام).) compiled the Quran on the basis of the chronological order of the Quran. However, since the present Quran which was compiled by Uthman was acceptable to him, he certified it and did not make his compiled version of the Quran public.

The order of collection of holy Quran - Shafaqna India | Indian Shia News Agency

[Cool]

16 minutes ago, Ibn Murtuz said:

I meant the arrangement the verses of Quran we have today is what Twelver Shias doubt, but we Sunnis believe that it should be arranged like that, since Prophet Muhammad صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم ordered the places and arrangement of the verses what we have today.

During the lifetime of Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), the job of the compilation of the Holy Quran was conducted. This is what everyone agrees. The order of Ayah, Surahs and the number of Surahs are all crystal clear. However, did Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) compile it in the form of a Book, between 2 covers? This is a point of dispute and disagreement.

Among Shia Ulama, there are 2 opinions which we explained:

1. People like Ayatollah Khoei, Allama Jafar Murtada al-Amili and others believe that indeed, the Holy Quran was compiled in book form during the time of Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

2. Allama Tabataba’I and a number of other scholars believe the opposite i.e., the compilation of the Holy Quran in book form did not occur during the time of Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). They believe that this compilation of the Holy Quran in book form took a long period of time and occurred much later.

We believe that the person who assumed this responsibility to compile the Holy Quran in book form was none other than Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib ((عليه السلام)).

The 6th Imam of Ahlul Bait ((عليه السلام)), Imam Jafar Sadiq ((عليه السلام)), narrates that Rasulullah (SAWA) said the following to Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) before departing this world:

“O Ali, behind me is the book and papers. Please take them and compile it and do not let it be wasted like the Jews wasted the Torah.”

So, based upon this narration of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), as narrated by Imam Jafar Sadiq ((عليه السلام)), the responsibility of compiling the Holy Quran in book form was bestowed upon Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)). Many Sunni narrators have also recorded similarly, that Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) was very much dedicated and focused on the compilation of the Holy Quran in book form.

According to the ibn Abbas, Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) dedicated himself to this project for 6 months after the demise of Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). This following narration is directly from Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)): 

“When Rasulullah (SAWA) passed away, I took an oath not to leave home, except for Jumuah, until I complete the compilation of the Holy Quran.”

Now, there is of course the historical and political background to this. Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) was sidelined during this early period of Islam after Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). He was concealed from the social and political matters of the Muslim nation (Ummah). 

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) explains in Nahjul Balagha that he also decided upon himself to make sabr (persevere) for the greater interest of Islam and at the same time, he took benefit of this period to complete this crucial project of compiling the Holy Quran in book form, and thereby protect it from fizzling away.

Therefore, even when people came to him complaining about why they no longer see him, he would make excuses by saying there is nothing better than this crucial job. So, the first person to have compiled the Holy Quran in book form, after collecting all the pieces, was Imam Ali ibn abu Talib ((عليه السلام)). This position is shared by a number of renowned Sunni scholars.

History narrates that after he completed his compilation, he presented it to the people, saying the well-known Hadith of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

“I leave behind 2 precious things, the book of Allah and my Ahlul Bait ((عليه السلام))”

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) explained this is the book of Allah i.e., the Holy Quran which he put together, and he is the itrah. This explains that nobody can be a greater authority on the Holy Quran than the itrah, who are regarded in this Prophetic Hadith as 2 parts which are deeply connected entities left by Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as his legacy.

Unfortunately, this compilation of the Holy Quran which Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) presented was not entertained, and quite frankly ignored. So he went back home with his compilation. 

According to the history of Islam from a Shia perspective, this compilation of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) became one of the special trusts which is connected with the Imams of Ahlul Bait ((عليه السلام)). This particular compilation got transferred from Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) down the chain of Imamate, and is currently in the custody of our living Imam Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف).

[Cool]

And I too believe that the Quran is compiled in the very life time of Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), the evidence of this is the verse of Surah e Qiyamah:

إِنَّ عَلَيْنَا جَمْعَهُ وَقُرْآنَهُ {17}

[Shakir 75:17] Surely on Us (devolves) the collecting of it and the reciting of it.

[Abu_Zahra]

The prominent transmission of Asim is traced back to Imam Ali (عليه السلام). In fact 4 of the 7 famous transmittals come from followers of the Imam (عليه السلام). So this idea that the compilation is doubted because it was conducted by Uthman is actually a misconception.

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Asim_b._Abi_l-Najud

[PureExistence1]

9 hours ago, Cool said:

During the lifetime of Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), the job of the compilation of the Holy Quran was conducted. This is what everyone agrees. The order of Ayah, Surahs and the number of Surahs are all crystal clear. However, did Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) compile it in the form of a Book, between 2 covers? This is a point of dispute and disagreement.

Among Shia Ulama, there are 2 opinions which we explained:

1. People like Ayatollah Khoei, Allama Jafar Murtada al-Amili and others believe that indeed, the Holy Quran was compiled in book form during the time of Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)

2. Allama Tabataba’I and a number of other scholars believe the opposite i.e., the compilation of the Holy Quran in book form did not occur during the time of Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). They believe that this compilation of the Holy Quran in book form took a long period of time and occurred much later.

We believe that the person who assumed this responsibility to compile the Holy Quran in book form was none other than Imam Ali ibn Abu Talib ((عليه السلام)).

The 6th Imam of Ahlul Bait ((عليه السلام)), Imam Jafar Sadiq ((عليه السلام)), narrates that Rasulullah (SAWA) said the following to Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) before departing this world:

“O Ali, behind me is the book and papers. Please take them and compile it and do not let it be wasted like the Jews wasted the Torah.”

So, based upon this narration of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم), as narrated by Imam Jafar Sadiq ((عليه السلام)), the responsibility of compiling the Holy Quran in book form was bestowed upon Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)). Many Sunni narrators have also recorded similarly, that Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) was very much dedicated and focused on the compilation of the Holy Quran in book form.

According to the ibn Abbas, Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) dedicated himself to this project for 6 months after the demise of Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). This following narration is directly from Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)): 

“When Rasulullah (SAWA) passed away, I took an oath not to leave home, except for Jumuah, until I complete the compilation of the Holy Quran.”

Now, there is of course the historical and political background to this. Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) was sidelined during this early period of Islam after Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم). He was concealed from the social and political matters of the Muslim nation (Ummah). 

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) explains in Nahjul Balagha that he also decided upon himself to make sabr (persevere) for the greater interest of Islam and at the same time, he took benefit of this period to complete this crucial project of compiling the Holy Quran in book form, and thereby protect it from fizzling away.

Therefore, even when people came to him complaining about why they no longer see him, he would make excuses by saying there is nothing better than this crucial job. So, the first person to have compiled the Holy Quran in book form, after collecting all the pieces, was Imam Ali ibn abu Talib ((عليه السلام)). This position is shared by a number of renowned Sunni scholars.

History narrates that after he completed his compilation, he presented it to the people, saying the well-known Hadith of our beloved Prophet Muhammad (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم):

“I leave behind 2 precious things, the book of Allah and my Ahlul Bait ((عليه السلام))”

Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) explained this is the book of Allah i.e., the Holy Quran which he put together, and he is the itrah. This explains that nobody can be a greater authority on the Holy Quran than the itrah, who are regarded in this Prophetic Hadith as 2 parts which are deeply connected entities left by Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) as his legacy.

Unfortunately, this compilation of the Holy Quran which Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) presented was not entertained, and quite frankly ignored. So he went back home with his compilation. 

According to the history of Islam from a Shia perspective, this compilation of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) became one of the special trusts which is connected with the Imams of Ahlul Bait ((عليه السلام)). This particular compilation got transferred from Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) down the chain of Imamate, and is currently in the custody of our living Imam Mahdi (عجّل الله تعالى فرجه الشريف).

Salaam,

Thanks for providing all this information, its very helpful.

I have a question. Im sure none of us doubt that all the Imams(عليه السلام) had the Holy Quran completely memorized, and we know Imam Ali(عليه السلام) came up with the punctuations(?)/diacritic marks, so why did it take him 6 months to compile it? Was there a reason why he needed to collect random inscriptions from here and there instead of just sitting and writing it all out in one go? 

Thanks in advance for all insight!

[Cool]

31 minutes ago, PureExistence1 said:

so why did it take him 6 months to compile it? Was there a reason why he needed to collect random inscriptions from here and there instead of just sitting and writing it all out in one go? 

Salam, 

The Quran compiled by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has some special features:

1. A number of early Sahabah (companions) explained that the compilation of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) was in the order of revelation. In other words, Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) placed the Surahs in the same sequence in which they were revealed, starting from Surah Alaq, Surah Qalam, Surah Muzzammil, Surah Muddathir, and so on. This was the special hallmark of this compilation of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)).

2. The second special feature of that compilation from Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) is that he also compiled the background of these Surahs and Ayah, in addition to the actual compilation of the verses and chapters. This is called Asbabun Nuzul.

So, Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) recorded Asbabun Nuzul as well. Some of the early Sahabah (companions) noted that Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) even included the place of revelation of the verses, in his compilation. 

3. Some of the other Sahabah (companions) say that Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) also added to his compilation the different explanations which Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) gave at that particular time along with the verses of the Quran.

4. The names of the people for whom the verses were revealed, in their praise or in their condemnation, was also mentioned in the compilation of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)).

These details obviously require huge amount of time. I can only wonder about the value of that version of compilation which includes every necessary things for the reader. 

[PureExistence1]

1 hour ago, Cool said:

Salam, 

The Quran compiled by Imam Ali (عليه السلام) has some special features:

1. A number of early Sahabah (companions) explained that the compilation of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) was in the order of revelation. In other words, Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) placed the Surahs in the same sequence in which they were revealed, starting from Surah Alaq, Surah Qalam, Surah Muzzammil, Surah Muddathir, and so on. This was the special hallmark of this compilation of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)).

2. The second special feature of that compilation from Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) is that he also compiled the background of these Surahs and Ayah, in addition to the actual compilation of the verses and chapters. This is called Asbabun Nuzul.

So, Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) recorded Asbabun Nuzul as well. Some of the early Sahabah (companions) noted that Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) even included the place of revelation of the verses, in his compilation. 

3. Some of the other Sahabah (companions) say that Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)) also added to his compilation the different explanations which Rasulullah (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) gave at that particular time along with the verses of the Quran.

4. The names of the people for whom the verses were revealed, in their praise or in their condemnation, was also mentioned in the compilation of Imam Ali ((عليه السلام)).

These details obviously require huge amount of time. I can only wonder about the value of that version of compilation which includes every necessary things for the reader. 

SubhannAllah! 

Its very sad that this version wasnt chosen as so many problems regarding certain ayahs, especially those regarding particular people or events wouldve prevented so many problems in the ummah. I wonder what the hikmah behind this is???