Eucharistic and Saintly Miracles

[Kenneth Lau]

One of the things that the Catholic Church boasts about for their truthfulness are the multiple miracles relating to the Eucharist (bread literally becoming flesh), saints (like stigmata and healing and others), Mary (Apparitions), etc. What is the Shi'a view of such claims. P.S. I'm of the belief that the 'Lady of Fátima' might actually be Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام).

[Ashvazdanghe]

Salam 

1. Christian Practice

Christian practice may be divided into two categories: 1) those practices requiring the intervention of a priest and 2) individual practices, or those not requiring the intervention of a priest. 

The former are called sacraments in Western Christianity and mysteries in Eastern Christianity.

The sacraments or mysteries number seven: these are baptism, confirmation, the Eucharist, confession, marriage, ordination, and unction.

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The Eucharist consists of the blessing of the wine and bread and the dispensing of it to the congregants. The traditional belief is that the action of the priest turns the bread and wine into the real body and blood of Christ, and by eating and drinking these, the communicant receives grace objectively into him or herself. The Reformation has caused some doubt and disturbance around this issue. The real presence has been doubted to some extent by the Lutherans and Anglicans, but more radically by the Calvinists, who consider the bread and wine to be symbols or signs of the real spiritual presence of Christ in the event.

 

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Even the Quakers, who reject all traditional forms and sacraments, perform marriages in public meeting. Baptism and the blessing of the bread and wine are performed by an ordained clergyman, even when the sacramental character of the rites is denied and the ordination of the clergyman is based merely upon the democratic election and blessing given by the congregation. Confirmation is still practiced by the churches which perform infant baptism. Even confession and the last rites of unction are becoming popular in Reformation Churches that used to consider them uniquely Catholic.

 

The Eucharist has a New Testament foundation as well, in the last supper of Jesus with his disciples as described in the Gospels. But it too in Christianity has taken on a good deal from pagan sacrificial rites which are thinly disguised ritual cannibalism. Such compromises were the necessary price in order to make Christianity the religion of the Roman state in the fourth century.

 

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This is the fundamental difference between Islamic and Christian practice. The Muslim does not need the Church as a channel of grace but may approach God directly in all matters. Historically speaking, medieval Islam had a strong influence on Christianity, notably in the radical reform which produced the freer forms of Christianity such as Baptists and Pentecostals, who also minimize the sacramental character of baptism and the Lord’s supper.

 

https://www.al-islam.org/invitation-islam-survival-guide-thomas-mcelwain/christian-and-islamic-practice-compared

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 9/2/2022 at 4:38 AM, Kenneth Lau said:

saints (like stigmata and healing and others)

 

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Zoheir Ali Esmail, Shaykh Zoheir Ali Esmail has a Bsc in Accounting and Finance from the LSE in London, and an MA in Islamic Studies from Middlesex University. He studied Arabic at Damascus University and holds a PhD...
Answered 2 years ago
Bismillah

Thank you for your question. If by saints you mean people that have reached closeness to Allah due to their efforts in worship, developing their faith and knowledge, passing trials and tribulations and other such qualities then there is no doubt that Shias not only accept the existence of saints but advocate a path to realize that potential in every person. The most perfect friends of God are the holy Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and his Household (عليه السلام) as well as the prophets (عليه السلام) and all of those who follow their footsteps have a place among the friends of God.

May you always be successful and be included among God's chosen friends

https://www.al-islam.org/ask/do-the-shia-believe-in-saints-as-the-sufis-do/zoheir-ali-esmail

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Sayyed Mohammad Al-Musawi, Sayyed Mohammad al-Musawi is originally from Iraq and heads up the World Ahlul Bayt Islamic League in London. Other than being involved in various humanitarian projects, he frequently responds to...
Answered 2 years ago
No.

Our divine leaders are the Prophets and the Infallible Imams and their sincere followers. 

We believe that our absolute obedience must be to Allah, the Prophet (SAWA) and the Infallible Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام). Beside them, No saint or scholar etc has the status of absolute obedience on us.

If fact, there is no need at all for saints in Shia Islam as the divine leadership of Ahlul Bayt (عليه السلام) is the real leadership for us.

Wassalam.

https://www.al-islam.org/ask/do-the-shia-believe-in-saints-as-the-sufis-do

https://www.al-islam.org/bible-quran-and-science-maurice-bucaille/old-testament

 

The Miracles {Karamah} of the Saints of God {Awliya’ Allah}

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Now, if anyone believes that there is a difference between a mu'jizah and a karamah, emphasizing that mu'jizah refers to that which is performed by the prophets as narrated in the Qur'an while karamah refers to that which is performed by the infallible Imams ('a) as narrated in the traditions, it must be said that in any case, the pure Imams ('a) possess powers and forces which the common people undoubtedly do not possess, and it makes no difference whether you call it as mu'jizah or karamah

 

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It is said that some of the real Gnostics and mystics {'urafa'} possess this power and to a lower degree. It is thus stated in the book, Fath al-Majid:

The miracles {karamah} of the saints of God {awliya' Allah} are the products of divine attraction and grace, and this affair does not depend upon the person or his knowledge and intention—like the karamah of 'Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) on numerous occasions and the karamah of 'Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) when he came to Iran and talked to Prophet Daniel in the town of Shush. Similarly, at the time when Medina was afflicted with famine, 'Umar participated in the prayer for rain and it came.

It must not remain unstated that we do not have reliable historical evidence concerning 'Umar's coming to Iran and the town of Shush in particular. It was rather 'Ali ibn Abi Talib ('a) who had come to Shush and talked with Prophet Daniel ('a).

With regard to the famine, it must also be said that what has been recorded in reliable sources is that at the request of 'Umar, 'Abbas the uncle of the Prophet (s) performed this prayer.

Then, the said author adds that these miracles have no benefit and if there were any benefit, it only pertains to that time. In short, after the death of those possessing karamah, those miracles have no value and one should not expect them.1

The miracles of the saints of God as the effect of satisfaction of the soul and God-wariness {taqwa}

According to the verses,

﴿وَمَنْ يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَلْ لَهُ مَخْرَجًا.﴾

And whoever is wary of Allah, He shall make a way out for him,3

And

﴿إِنَّ اللَّهَ لاَ يُضِيعُ أَجْرَ الْمُحْسِنِينَ.﴾

Indeed Allah does not waste the reward of the virtuous,4

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Meanwhile, the ruling on the truly faithful persons is like the ruling on water. When they are alive, everybody can benefit from their presence and when they die and are buried, people can establish spiritual communion with them, turning to them for help and seeking their intermediation. In the same manner, underground water can be obtained by the spade, wheelbarrow and bucket.

https://www.al-islam.org/new-analysis-wahhabi-doctrines-muhammad-husayn-ibrahimi/miracles-karamah-saints-god-awliya-allah

[Ashvazdanghe]

 

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55) Friends of Allah (Saints)

In the Holy Quran, the Lord of the universe has considered the pious as the guardians or the friends of Allah. God says: “And what (excuse) have they that Allah should not chastise them while they hinder (men) from the Sacred Mosque and they are not (fit to be) guardians of it; its guardians are only those who guard (against evil), but most of them do not know.”1

In another verse, God says: “Verily on the friends of Allah there is no fear, nor shall they grieve.”2

Imam Sadiq ^{(عليه السلام)} has narrated from the Messenger of Allah ^{(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)} his saying: “Whoever recognizes Allah and glorifies Him prevents his mouth from (idle) speaking and his stomach from having food and busies himself with fasting and praying.” They said: “May our fathers and mother be sacrificed for you, O Messenger of Allah! Are they the friends of Allah?” The Holy Prophet ^{(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)} said: “Be aware that the friends of Allah are silent; their silence is remembrance, their look is meaningful, they speak and their speech is full of wisdom, and they walk and their walk is full of blessing. If there had not been fixed periods of life for each, their spirits would not have remained in their bodies, because of their eagerness for paradise and fear of chastisement.”

 

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Imam Ali ^{(عليه السلام)} has said: “The saints of Allah are those who look at the inward side of the world, while other people look at its outward side; they busy themselves with its remoter benefits, while other people busy themselves with the immediate benefits. They kill those things which they feared that they might kill them, and leave here in this world what they think would leave them. They consider trivial what others consider as much. They are enemies of those things which others love while they love things which others hate. Through them, the Quran has been learnt and they have been taught by the Quran. By them, the Quran is followed, and by the Qur'an, they are followed. They do not see any object of hope above what they hope and no object of fear above what they fear.”3

3. “The greatness of the Creator is seated in their hearts, and so, everything else appears small in their eyes. Thus, to them, paradise is as if they see it and are enjoying its favors. To them, Hell is also as if they see it and are suffering torture in it.”4

8-12: Their hearts are grieved, they are protected against evils, their bodies are thin, their needs scanty, and their souls are chaste. These are the features of the pious. They have a right to grieve when they see this world and the hereafter. Imam Ali ^{(عليه السلام)} has said: “A believer is happy in the face and grieved in the heart.”14

 

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Ishaq ibn Ammar narrated: “I heard Abu Abdullah (Imam Sadiq) ((عليه السلام).) say: ‘The Messenger of Allah was offering the Fajr (dawn) Prayer in the mosque when he saw a young man with sunken eyes, bent down head, and was pale, lean and slumbering. The Holy Prophet said: ‘How did you pass the night?’ The young man said: ‘I passed the night in a state of certainty.’

The Holy Prophet ^{(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)} said: ‘For every conviction, there is a truth. What is the truth of your conviction?’ The young man said: ‘O Messenger of Allah! It is He who makes me feel sad, makes me wakeful at night and hungry during the day. I am detached from this world and what is in it that as if I look at the Throne of my Lord that has been set up for reckoning and people have been resurrected for this purpose, and I am among them, and as if I look at the inhabitants of paradise who enjoy the bliss of it.

They are sitting on couches looking at each other. And it is such that I look at the inhabitants of hell and see them crying. I can hear the sound of the blazing fire with my own ears.’ The Holy Prophet said: ‘This is the servant whom God has enlightened his heart with faith.’ Then, he said: ‘Keep to what you are in!’

The young man said: ‘O Messenger of Allah! Pray God to reward me with martyrdom.’ The Holy Prophet ^{(صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم)} prayed for him. Soon, he took part in a battle and was the tenth martyr after nine other martyrs.”12

The same happened to Harithah ibn Malik. When he was asked: “How are you?” He said: “A true believer.” When the Holy Prophet asked him about it, he said: “It is as if I can see the people of paradise who meet one another and as if I hear the voice of the people of fire.” The Holy Prophet said to him what he had said to the young man. Haritha too asked the Holy Prophet to pray for him to be martyred. After killing nine men (from the enemy) in the battle, he was martyred too.13

 

 

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Sheikh Baha’iy, in a commentary on this tradition, says: “This tradition includes the important features of the mystics and traits of the friends of Allah.” Then, he sums up these features as the following:

1- Silence which is the gate of salvation

2- Hunger which is the key to all good

3- Busying oneself with fasting and spending the night in worshiping (this is a reference to the worship of the Messenger of Allah, Imam Ali and others)

4- Reflection which is better than the worships of sixty years

5- Remembrance with tongue and the heart

6- Pondering to take lessons

7- Wise speech of knowledge and sciences which contains the good of this world and the hereafter

8- Helping people by fulfilling their deeds, guiding and delivering them from perishment

9- & 10- Fear and hope together, which is the ultimate goal of every perfect man

https://www.al-islam.org/taqwa-piety-advice-ahl-al-bayt-sayyed-hussain-sheikh-al-islami-tooyserkani/55-friends-allah-saints

[Abu Nur]

On 9/2/2022 at 3:08 AM, Kenneth Lau said:

One of the things that the Catholic Church boasts about for their truthfulness are the multiple miracles relating to the Eucharist (bread literally becoming flesh), saints (like stigmata and healing and others), Mary (Apparitions), etc. What is the Shi'a view of such claims. P.S. I'm of the belief that the 'Lady of Fátima' might actually be Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام).

Any miracle where Jesus appear to anyone and claims to be God or son of God is Shaytan himself. Any miracle that directs to kufr and shirk is from Shaytan. Any miracle that heals and cure the person and then that healer will tell to worship him or follow other than what God have ordered is Shaytan himself.

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 9/2/2022 at 4:38 AM, Kenneth Lau said:

Mary (Apparitions), etc. What is the Shi'a view of such claims. P.S. I'm of the belief that the 'Lady of Fátima' might actually be Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام).

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kenneth Lau]

6 hours ago, Abu Nur said:

Any miracle where Jesus appear to anyone and claims to be God or son of God is Shaytan himself. Any miracle that directs to kufr and shirk is from Shaytan. Any miracle that heals and cure the person and then that healer will tell to worship him or follow other than what God have ordered is Shaytan himself.

But how does Satan manipulate things when he can only telepathically transmit evil thoughts.

[Abu Nur]

11 hours ago, Kenneth Lau said:

But how does Satan manipulate things when he can only telepathically transmit evil thoughts.

There are jinns and human shayatins who can do actions such that they can only suggest and influence but never force the person to follow them. He is deceiver so he can deceive people by thoughts from materialism sensens. For clear example Dajjal have such a power to do miracles and deceive. And he will deceive people in masses to worship him as God because of the miracles he can do. 

In the Old testament we find very important verse that's warns us about this too. This is about human shaytan who follow shaytan himself. 

"If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, 'Let us follow other gods' (gods you have not known) 'and let us worship them,' you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the Lord your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you" (Deuteronomy 13:1–5).

Edited September 4, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Kenneth Lau]

I see. And it's worth noting that some of these 'miracles' are unverified in the fact that some of them could happen by fraud, like the stigmatas could easily be red paint made to look like a wound. But what about the water of Lourdes which witnesses confirmed to be healed.

[Abu Nur]

32 minutes ago, Kenneth Lau said:

I see. And it's worth noting that some of these 'miracles' are unverified in the fact that some of them could happen by fraud, like the stigmatas could easily be red paint made to look like a wound. But what about the water of Lourdes which witnesses confirmed to be healed.

The same way how some people are healed trought zamzam water. It is a water mixed with minerals that can help to heal the body.

[Kenneth Lau]

So Zamzam does not have powers? The Imams said so?

[Ashvazdanghe]

3 hours ago, Kenneth Lau said:

So Zamzam does not have powers?

Salam basically it's just a mineral water but on the other hand it has blessed due to sacrifice of lady Hajar/Hagar which Zamzam has sprung for saving prophet Ishmael (عليه السلام) by order of Allah so it's blessed water which in similar fashion there are other places likewise water of Lourde which has sprung for saints who has been loyal to god to be asign for believrs 

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According to a hadith from Imam al-Sadiq (a), when Abraham (a) left Hagar and Ishmael (a) in Mecca and then returned home, Ishmael (a) was thirsty. In order to find water, Hagar walked seven times back and forth in the distance between Mount Safa and Mount Marwa, but she failed to find water. When she went back to Ishmael (a), she saw that water had sprung from the ground under his feet, which came to be known as Zamzam water well. This is the origin of the ritual of running between Safa and Marwa as a practice of hajj.^[12]

https://en.wikishia.net/view/Hagar

[Northwest]

On 9/3/2022 at 8:06 AM, Abu Nur said:

Any miracle where Jesus appear to anyone and claims to be God or son of God is Shaytan himself. Any miracle that directs to kufr and shirk is from Shaytan. Any miracle that heals and cure the person and then that healer will tell to worship him or follow other than what God have ordered is Shaytan himself.

@Abu Nur

So are you suggesting that all the Catholic and other Christian miracles that confirmed the Christian path of worship are from Satan, because the miracles did not instruct the Christians to purge their religion of corruptions such as Eucharist and Trinity? For example the apparition at Fátima, Portugal (1917), did not explicitly instruct the children to abandon their preexisting belief in the Trinity. @Ashvazdanghe If the apparition were really that of Fatima Zahra, wouldn’t it have corrected the children on matters of Christian belief that contradicted Shia doctrine?

[Abu Nur]

13 minutes ago, Northwest said:

@Abu Nur

So are you suggesting that all the Catholic and other Christian miracles that confirmed the Christian path of worship are from Satan, because the miracles did not instruct the Christians to purge their religion of corruptions such as Eucharist and Trinity? For example the apparition at Fátima, Portugal (1917), did not explicitly instruct the children to abandon their preexisting belief in the Trinity. @Ashvazdanghe If the apparition were really that of Fatima Zahra, wouldn’t it have corrected the children on matters of Christian belief that contradicted Shia doctrine?

It is really not only Christians, Hindus and others too. Even among ourselves Shias we have witnessed miracles of nature of shaytan. For example an Idol head of Imam Husain (عليه السلام) (or Abbas (as)) weeping blood (Be it fake or not, both of them is from shaytan). God path is clear and not crooked, and there is really not second or third path toward him. I'm not here in anyway trying to imply that Christians, Hindus etc are doomed to hell, because that is not at all how people are judged. Everyone is judged by their Sincerity, intentions and capacity of understanding. 

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For example the apparition at Fátima, Portugal (1917), did not explicitly instruct the children to abandon their preexisting belief in the Trinity.

I doubt such an event. 

Edited September 4, 2022 by Abu Nur

[Northwest]

3 minutes ago, Abu Nur said:

It is really not only Christians, Hindus and others too. Even among ourselves Shias we have witnessed miracles of nature of shaytan. For example an Idol head of Imam Husain (عليه السلام) (or Abbas (as)) weeping blood. God path is clear and not crooked, and there is really not second or third path toward him. I'm not here in anyway trying to imply that Christians, Hindus etc are doomed to hell, because that is not at all how people are judged. Everyone is judged by their Sincerity, intentions and capacity. 

@Abu Nur

I was not really focussing on that. I was just asking whether you believe miracles such as that of Fátima are from Satan because they didn’t instruct Christians (or followers of other corrupted paths) to purify their religion.

[Abu Nur]

Just now, Northwest said:

@Abu Nur

I was not really focussing on that. I was just asking whether you believe miracles such as that of Fátima are from Satan because they didn’t instruct Christians (or followers of other corrupted paths) to purify their religion.

I really don't even believe in that miracle. 

[Ashvazdanghe]

1 hour ago, Northwest said:

@Ashvazdanghe If the apparition were really that of Fatima Zahra, wouldn’t it have corrected the children on matters of Christian belief that contradicted Shia doctrine?

Hi , It' not first time that leaders of churchs  have distorted true meaning of such miracles which in event of apparation lady Fatima (sa) has not ordered to children to pray Jesus or practice any Christian ritual which all of what have been reported from their encounter is about common things between Isalm & original Christanity  likewise believing to one creator & praying & fasting for wellnes of others & abstainig from harmful acts which for example in last movie about it , she has said to Lucia dos Santos to not practice catholic lashing for seeing her which after their last visit leaders of churches have started interpretation of her messages based on ctholic mindset because mind of those three children have not been affected by any christian teaching which they still  have had their innocence due to being sheperds & being in nature for long times in opposition of rest of people around them which there is no message has remained from Jacinta and Francisco Marto who have died in childhood which any saying or information from both of them have been censored by church which we only we knew that they have been companions of Lucia dos Santos which in similar fashion they have distorted any message or information which have been said by Lucia by isolation of her in church & speaking in behalf of her even some of people believe that adult Lucia has been a fraud that has been replaced by catholic church .

[Samarra313]

On 9/1/2022 at 8:08 PM, Kenneth Lau said:

One of the things that the Catholic Church boasts about for their truthfulness are the multiple miracles relating to the Eucharist (bread literally becoming flesh), saints (like stigmata and healing and others), Mary (Apparitions), etc. What is the Shi'a view of such claims. P.S. I'm of the belief that the 'Lady of Fátima' might actually be Sayyida Fatima (عليه السلام).

Salaam

The subject of miracles and Marian apparitions are actually quite broad, but the key is to keep them in perspective in light of other things, such as the miracles and powers of Yogi practitioners or Hindu Mystics that also claim the truthfulness of their religion and the truth with their own masters and teachers, miracles that are not so vastly different from the miracles purported in Christianity, such as bilocation, locutions, apparitions, etc. It's not to say that they are wrong, I actually believe in the truthfulness of these things, but the wisdom and timing of these events, especially historical as in the case of the "lady from heaven" in regards to Fatima, Portugal 1916-17 or even Lady of Guadalupe of 1531 Mexico (whose tapestry still exists today) belongs to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى). 

One of the narratives I heard from Sayed Muhammad Baqir Qazwini was that during the time of the sixth Imam, Imam Saddiq(عليه السلام), there was a certain non-believer who had mastered his nafs to such a degree he possessed great amount of knowledge that truly amazed people that people began to doubt their faith in Islam. So in order to combat these doubts the Imam tested the non-Muslim. In the course of this test Imam Saddiq put his hand through a wall and drew it back with his fist clenched and asked the non-Muslim what was in his fist. The non-Muslim was so amazed at this ability he wanted to know how the Imam did this. The non-Muslim said that the moment the Imam's hand went through the wall he saw in his mind a bird's nest somewhere (I can't remember if he said it was India or some other place) belonging to a certain bird and there was a bird egg in the nest and the next moment he saw the nest empty. When the Imam opened his hand, there was tiny bird egg in his hand. The Imam invited the non-Muslim to Islam and the non-Muslim accepted and at that point he no longer possessed great knowledge as he had once before. The new Muslim asked about this and the Imam said that in the Hearafter he would receive greater benefits there than when he was on earth. Please forgive me for any mistakes with regard to this narrative. i don't have the source, but just paraphrasing what I remembering what Sayed Qazwini mentioned and i could be wrong the details. So it makes me believe however that on earth, some of those who live by other faiths are allowed to have these sorts of blessings and miracles, but it is still incumbent on those to seek Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for their ultimate reliance on everything. 

[Samarra313]

10 hours ago, Northwest said:

@Abu Nur

So are you suggesting that all the Catholic and other Christian miracles that confirmed the Christian path of worship are from Satan, because the miracles did not instruct the Christians to purge their religion of corruptions such as Eucharist and Trinity? For example the apparition at Fátima, Portugal (1917), did not explicitly instruct the children to abandon their preexisting belief in the Trinity. @Ashvazdanghe If the apparition were really that of Fatima Zahra, wouldn’t it have corrected the children on matters of Christian belief that contradicted Shia doctrine?

Salaam

Per the actual event of Fatima, I truly don't believe we have the full truth of the matter, especially when the Church learned of the event and felt the need to control it. I believe that the historicity of the event was a message to the world that subtly points to Shia Islam (such as the name of Fatima not only of Islamic origin but also happens to be the name of the Prophet(s) daughter and one of the 14 Infallibles(as)) in general but the main point was to keep a system of belief consistent with practice during a time when atheists during the first world war was casting suspicion upon faith in general and practice in particular, such as the case with Portugal. While it is easy to point out the differences between Islam and Christianity with regards to the Fatima event, I challenge those to focus on the actual message of the lady (imo, never gave a name to her identity except her own claim as a lady from heaven) which is consistent with the Qur'anic teachings of not being a hypocrite in one's faith whether one is a Muslim or one of the People of the Book, which was to be consistent and constant in prayer, in repentance. Why wouldn't this be an opportune time to enlighten the world of Shia Islam? I don't know, but all I can say is that this is left to Allah((سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى))'s Infinite Wisdom. 

I recall reading/hearing about one of the children in the event of the apparitions of Medjugorje in the 1980s - an event that the Church decided not to back, but still had a large following and impact on Catholic believers - ask the lady who was the most righteous person in their town and the lady responded by mentioning a woman's name Pasha. The child was taken aback - "Pasha? but she's a Muslim!" However the lady mention that it was God who decides who is the holiest among mankind, not mankind itself. 

[Northwest]

16 hours ago, Samarra313 said:

Salaam

The subject of miracles and Marian apparitions are actually quite broad, but the key is to keep them in perspective in light of other things, such as the miracles and powers of Yogi practitioners or Hindu Mystics that also claim the truthfulness of their religion and the truth with their own masters and teachers, miracles that are not so vastly different from the miracles purported in Christianity, such as bilocation, locutions, apparitions, etc. It's not to say that they are wrong, I actually believe in the truthfulness of these things, but the wisdom and timing of these events, especially historical as in the case of the "lady from heaven" in regards to Fatima, Portugal 1916-17 or even Lady of Guadalupe of 1531 Mexico (whose tapestry still exists today) belongs to Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى).

@Samarra313

So, if I understand correctly, we can’t really understand the full import (“wisdom and timing”) of the miracles, even if they do occur? Then what would be the point of the miracles, other than to point out the limitations of human knowledge?

16 hours ago, Samarra313 said:

One of the narratives I heard from Sayed Muhammad Baqir Qazwini was that during the time of the sixth Imam, Imam Saddiq(عليه السلام), there was a certain non-believer who had mastered his nafs to such a degree he possessed great amount of knowledge that truly amazed people that people began to doubt their faith in Islam. So in order to combat these doubts the Imam tested the non-Muslim. In the course of this test Imam Saddiq put his hand through a wall and drew it back with his fist clenched and asked the non-Muslim what was in his fist. The non-Muslim was so amazed at this ability he wanted to know how the Imam did this. The non-Muslim said that the moment the Imam's hand went through the wall he saw in his mind a bird's nest somewhere (I can't remember if he said it was India or some other place) belonging to a certain bird and there was a bird egg in the nest and the next moment he saw the nest empty. When the Imam opened his hand, there was tiny bird egg in his hand. The Imam invited the non-Muslim to Islam and the non-Muslim accepted and at that point he no longer possessed great knowledge as he had once before.

What is the precise meaning of this narration? After all, miracles appear more or less remarkable relative to the individual practitioner’s experience. What if the sixth Imam had not been “physically” present there, as in the case of the Hindu, Christian, and other miracles? Then the non-Muslim miracle-worker would have perhaps been exposed, at best, to miracle-workers from other non-Islamic faiths who worked even bigger miracles than he had done or experienced. So then he might have instead converted to those other non-Islamic faiths instead of Islam, simply because those faiths, like Islam, worked a bigger miracle than anything that he had previously seen. So why would someone simply regard Islam as true upon seeing the biggest miracle to date? In order to be really sure, wouldn’t the use of logical, reasonable proofs been a better guide, because miracles are relative to one’s experience, involve a degree of subjectivity, and do not always convince to begin with? Or am I misunderstanding the inner meaning of the narration, which is about humbling the heart and realising the limits of one’s knowledge? Maybe the nonbeliever’s “knowledge” was not based on miracles in the same sense as the sixth Imam’s action? I am trying to understand all this.

16 hours ago, Samarra313 said:

The new Muslim asked about this and the Imam said that in the Hearafter he would receive greater benefits there than when he was on earth. Please forgive me for any mistakes with regard to this narrative. i don't have the source, but just paraphrasing what I remembering what Sayed Qazwini mentioned and i could be wrong the details. So it makes me believe however that on earth, some of those who live by other faiths are allowed to have these sorts of blessings and miracles, but it is still incumbent on those to seek Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) for their ultimate reliance on everything. 

Is it possible, then, that the Hindus and other non-Muslims who have experienced blessings and miracles were seeking the One Creator in their innermost intentions, even if they did not have access to the most reliable sources?

[Samarra313]

8 hours ago, Northwest said:

So, if I understand correctly, we can’t really understand the full import (“wisdom and timing”) of the miracles, even if they do occur? Then what would be the point of the miracles, other than to point out the limitations of human knowledge?

I prefer to call them signs from Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) but miracles and these inexplicable events are also. Surah Al-Kalf mentions the believers who were put to sleep by Allah's will for 300 years just as an example. I believe they exist to point the way to a deeper contemplation about the reality we live in. For some it is dismissed, for others it is accepted as validation of what they believe, for others it is an invitation to spiritual wayfaring. 

8 hours ago, Northwest said:

So why would someone simply regard Islam as true upon seeing the biggest miracle to date? In order to be really sure, wouldn’t the use of logical, reasonable proofs been a better guide, because miracles are relative to one’s experience, involve a degree of subjectivity, and do not always convince to begin with? Or am I misunderstanding the inner meaning of the narration, which is about humbling the heart and realising the limits of one’s knowledge? Maybe the nonbeliever’s “knowledge” was not based on miracles in the same sense as the sixth Imam’s action? I am trying to understand all this.

My apologies as I am not a scholar and i see my bringing up this narration i've heard from the Seyed has only led to confusion. By doing what he did (and perhaps logic and humble demonstration of the Imam's ability led to the conversion of the non-Muslim was pertinent to this) Imam Sadiq(عليه السلام) upheld and defended the religion of Islam from this consciousness that claimed "I have knowledgeable abilities too based on my non-Muslim practice, therefore the religion of Islam is irrelevant." Anything that leads to worship of anything other than Allah(سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) is shirk. I can only refer to Seyed M. Baqir Qazwini for the facts of this narration to help you with your questions on this matter more thoroughly. 

 

[Ashvazdanghe]

23 hours ago, Northwest said:

Maybe the nonbeliever’s “knowledge” was not based on miracles in the same sense as the sixth Imam’s action? I am trying to understand all this.

Hi in according to other sources of story after seeing egg in hand of Imam so then  Imam sadiq (عليه السلام) asked from Indian nonbeliever which how he attend to this knowledge which the Indian nonbeliever responded that I have obtained to this knowlwedge by opposing my desires so then Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) said to him so now what's  your desire orders to you now which that Indian nonbeliever has replied my desire oreders   opposing accepting Islam  so Imam said to him in similar fashion oppose your desire so therefore Indian nonbeliever by opposing his desire has accepte Isalm .which rest of story is same as story of  @Samarra313.

On 9/5/2022 at 2:38 PM, Northwest said:

Is it possible, then, that the Hindus and other non-Muslims who have experienced blessings and miracles were seeking the One Creator in their innermost intentions, even if they did not have access to the most reliable sources?

Miracles is most powerful tool for convincing people who has no access to reliable sources or they have little knowledge .

[HzAbbas]

The miracles in themselves mean nothing even in the Christian context because even the new testament itself warns against false miracles in many places (Matt 24:24, Mark 13:22, 2 Thess. 2:9, etc.)

[Samarra313]

The role of miracles in Islam is to support the claim of the one who performs it. For the Prophets(عليه السلام) and the Imams(عليه السلام) miracles proves and supports the truth of their claims. Deuteronomy 18:22 supports this discernment as well. The following is taken from the work of Sayyid Sa'eed Akhtar Rizvi entitled "Prophethood" (which can be found online on al-islam.org):

Quote

Meaning of Miracle
'Mujiza' (معجزة) in Arabic language means 'that which disables,' 'that which people are unable to do-' In Islamic terminology, 'Mujiza' (معجزة ) means 'Such act which people are unable to do and Allah shows it on the hands of a prophet or Imam to prove the prophethood of that Nabi or Imamat of that Imam. (Prophethood, by Sayyid Sa'eed Akhtar Rizvi)

Quote

...The Prophets were given the miracles as their credentials. Miracles are such performances which are not impossible, but which cannot be done without apparatus, medicine or practice. But the Prophet performs them without any practice and without any machinery. Curing the blind persons or lepers is not impossible. But Jesus Christ cured them without any medicine, and that was his miracle. Mohammed (s-a.w.) had innumerable miracles, but his greatest living miracle is Qur'an. (Prophethood, by Sayyid Sa'eed Akhtar Rizvi)

 

Edited September 17, 2022 by Samarra313

[Northwest]

On 9/4/2022 at 12:08 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

for example in last movie about it , she has said to Lucia dos Santos to not practice catholic lashing

@Ashvazdanghe Do you care to reference the name of the film? I am trying to research this particular claim.

On 9/4/2022 at 12:08 PM, Ashvazdanghe said:

even some of people believe that adult Lucia has been a fraud that has been replaced by catholic church .

Do you have a source for this as well?

[Northwest]

On 9/17/2022 at 2:10 AM, Samarra313 said:

The role of miracles in Islam is to support the claim of the one who performs it. For the Prophets(عليه السلام) and the Imams(عليه السلام) miracles proves and supports the truth of their claims. Deuteronomy 18:22 supports this discernment as well. The following is taken from the work of Sayyid Sa'eed Akhtar Rizvi entitled "Prophethood" (which can be found online on al-islam.org):

@Samarra313 @Ashvazdanghe What, however, if both Muslims and non-Muslims are capable of healing remotely? If the miracles were similar, wouldn’t something more than, or apart from, a miracle be needed to discern the true faith? (I.e., a logical demonstration of monotheism?) A miracle on its own does not seem sufficient, but a miracle and logic combined might be. After all, if one were faced with similar miracles but no other information, how would one be able to discern the correct path? If one side’s “miracles” were actually naturalistic, then a true miracle might suffice, but if both miracles were genuine, I think there might be at least some issues.

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 1/27/2025 at 12:08 PM, Northwest said:

Do you care to reference the name of the film? I am trying to research this particular claim.

Hi , It's "Fatima" by Marco Pontecorvo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Pontecorvo

On 1/27/2025 at 12:08 PM, Northwest said:

Do you have a source for this as well?

This is a conspiracy theory on Internet & Youtube .

Edited January 29 by Ashvazdanghe

[Ashvazdanghe]

On 1/27/2025 at 11:33 PM, Northwest said:

What, however, if both Muslims and non-Muslims are capable of healing remotely? If the miracles were similar, wouldn’t something more than, or apart from, a miracle be needed to discern the true faith? (I.e., a logical demonstration of monotheism?) A miracle on its own does not seem sufficient, but a miracle and logic combined might be.

Hi , Miracle can be happen for anyone whether Muslims or non-Muslims which it it's likewise salt in food which small amount of is good for giving good taste to faith which person has achieved through  "logical demonstration of monotheism" which causes strengthening of faith & warming heart of believers but on the other hand denying it after happening of it causes severe consequences for denier of it which maybe even a believer faces severe consequences of denying it which for example in holy Quran when disciples of prophet Isa (عليه السلام) have asked from Allah to send down a table for them from the sky so then he fulfilled it but he warned them that if after happening this miracle anyone of them disbelieves so then he will punish him with most severe punishment . 

Quote

When the Disciples said, ‘O Jesus son of Mary! Can your Lord send down to us a table from the sky?’ Said he, ‘Be wary of Allah, should you be faithful.’ (112) They said, ‘We desire to eat from it, and our hearts will be at rest: we shall know that you have told us the truth, and we shall be among the witnesses to it.’ (113)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/5:112

Said Jesus son of Mary, ‘O Allah! Our Lord! Send down to us a table from the sky, to be a festival for us, for the first ones and the last ones among us and as a sign from You, and provide for us; for You are the best of providers.’ (114) Allah said, ‘I will indeed send it down to you. But should any of you disbelieve after this, I will indeed punish him with a punishment such as I do not punish anyone in all creation.’ (115)

https://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qarai/5:114

 

[Northwest]

On 1/29/2025 at 7:00 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi , It's "Fatima" by Marco Pontecorvo

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marco_Pontecorvo

This is a conspiracy theory on Internet & Youtube .

@Ashvazdanghe If the apparition were Islamic, why did the Lady reinforce Catholic dogma, i.e., the Rosary (p. 45), along with Trinitarian and Eucharistic formulae (p. 176; cf. pp. 79, 172)? (Note that the relevant materials were published not later than the early 1940s.) The narrator is often said to have been silenced by the Church, but apparently spoke freely for some decades; (relative) silence was not enjoined upon her before 1949, when she joined a Carmelite order. Maybe some background is being hidden, but not in the original manuscript(s).

[Ashvazdanghe]

9 hours ago, Northwest said:

why did the Lady reinforce Catholic dogma, i.e., the Rosary (p. 45), along with Trinitarian and Eucharistic formulae (p. 176; cf. pp. 79, 172)? (

Hi, This is something which maybe has been misinterpreted by catholic adults which they have misinterpreted message of children based on  catholic prisma ;

9 hours ago, Northwest said:

The narrator is often said to have been silenced by the Church, but apparently spoke freely for some decades; (relative) silence was not enjoined upon her before 1949, when she joined a Carmelite order. Maybe some background is being hidden, but not in the original manuscript(s).

Maybe after struggling with church she has adopted message with catholic dogma just to deliver the message even through catholic dogma without silencing by church anymore .

Edited February 12 by Ashvazdanghe

[Northwest]

11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi, This is something which maybe has been misinterpreted by catholic adults which they have misinterpreted message of children based on  catholic prisma

@Ashvazdanghe That could be the case, but the source(s) suggest otherwise. For instance, the three eyewitnesses were first told by an “Angel of Peace” to repeat a Trinitarian formula and accept the Catholic Host. (Their encounter took place before any of the “Marian” apparitions.) In fact the children were readied for the sightings and messages by none other than the “Angel.” On May 13, 1917, the date of the first apparition, the Lady commanded them to “pray the Rosary” daily. The youths also uttered the Trinitarian formula silently, “in our hearts”; whether the Lady appeared to be clairvoyant is not stated, but the figure did not react negatively to this. Afterward one of the children explicitly said that the Lady told her to recite the (Catholic) Rosary. In 1947 one of the three eyewitnesses, Lúcia, allowed Father Thomas McGlynn to sculpt a statue of the Lady, providing her own description. She noted that the Lady carried a Rosary with a “white cross.” Neither the cross nor the statue hints at an Islamic background.

11 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Maybe after struggling with church she has adopted message with catholic dogma just to deliver the message even through catholic dogma without silencing by church anymore .

Maybe. But her account reveals that the Lady told her not to speak in detail about (some of) the things that were imparted. Even so, Lúcia’s mother still believed she was not being forthcoming and thought the apparition(s) fanciful. One reason: the Lady supposedly told Lúcia to become literate, something that was not expected of women—certainly not in rural, agrarian Portugal. (If I recall correctly some Shia narrations also suggest that women are discouraged from learning to read and/or write. Maybe the narrations refer only to certain topics? I’m unsure.) At any rate, I struggle to understand why an Islamic figure would in this case condone such an indirect approach, i.e., spreading an “Islamic” message through Catholic forms. I’m not precluding such a possibility, of course, but it seems rather unlikely. Also, the very first message of the Lady had to do with the end of the First World War rather than any “Islamic” revelation.

Nonetheless, I find the case quite fascinating.

Edited February 12 by Northwest

[Ashvazdanghe]

13 hours ago, Northwest said:

the source(s) suggest otherwise. For instance, the three eyewitnesses were first told by an “Angel of Peace” to repeat a Trinitarian formula and accept the Catholic Host. (Their encounter took place before any of the “Marian” apparitions.) In fact the children were readied for the sightings and messages by none other than the “Angel.” On May 13, 1917, the date of the first apparition, the Lady commanded them to “pray the Rosary” daily. The youths also uttered the Trinitarian formula silently, “in our hearts”; whether the Lady appeared to be clairvoyant is not stated, but the figure did not react negatively to this. Afterward one of the children explicitly said that the Lady told her to recite the (Catholic) Rosary. In 1947 one of the three eyewitnesses, Lúcia, allowed Father Thomas McGlynn to sculpt a statue of the Lady, providing her own description. She noted that the Lady carried a Rosary with a “white cross.” Neither the cross nor the statue hints at an Islamic background.

Hi , the source is totally misinterpretation based on catholic formula which people around children only knew about catholic matters so therefore they have returned to catholic dogmas based on their misinterpretation because they have not any idea about islam.

13 hours ago, Northwest said:

(If I recall correctly some Shia narrations also suggest that women are discouraged from learning to read and/or write. Maybe the narrations refer only to certain topics? I’m unsure.) A

This is just your total misunderstanding which in opposition to your whim Shia narration always have suggested women to learning read and/or write even learning religious matters by themselves. 

Quote

. Also, the very first message of the Lady had to do with the end of the First World War rather than any “Islamic” revelation.

Based on Shia narrations Lady Fatima (sa) has received all details of future events since her time until the end time  from arch angel Gabrile/Jibraeel by order of Allah after demise his father which it has been collected in book of "Mus'hif of Fatima"which has been dictated by lady Fatima to Imam Ali (عليه السلام) so then he has written it in the book which the book is one of trusties of Imamate which is only in hand of infallible Imam of ech time  which maybe sometimes informs some his few hand picked  trustworthy companions from some events which  has been mentioned in the book of "Mus'hif of Fatima". 

Edited February 13 by Ashvazdanghe

[Northwest]

On 2/13/2025 at 5:51 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi , the source is totally misinterpretation based on catholic formula which people around children only knew about catholic matters so therefore they have returned to catholic dogmas based on their misinterpretation because they have not any idea about islam.

@Ashvazdanghe Surely this would not have happened had the “Lady” been Fāṭima al-Zahrā? Wouldn’t the “Lady” have provided context, along with detail, to outline the true Faith, so that no relapse would have been possible? As I mentioned previously, none of the accounts I have seen indicates that the “Lady” contradicted Catholic dogma. The eyewitnesses were first “alerted” the future apparitions by an ”Angel” who taught them a Trinitarian and Eucharistic prayer. When the “Lady” appeared they silently repeated the formula and were not corrected.

Quote

“Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, I adore You profoundly, and I offer You the most precious Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference with which He Himself is offended. And, through the infinite merits of His most Sacred Heart, and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of You the conversion of poor sinners.”  —Source, p. 79 (cf. this as well)

Father John (João) de Marchi did firsthand research on the apparitions, visiting the sites in person and interviewing eyewitnesses, including the children’s kin. In The Immaculate Heart (New York: Farrar, Strauss and Young, 1952, pp. 158–9) he noted that local priests questioned Lúcia about her statements concerning the end of World War I. She explicitly said that on 13 October 1917 the “Lady” told her that the war would end that day. She even quoted rather than paraphrased the “Lady.” Obviously the war did not end then.

On 2/13/2025 at 5:51 AM, Ashvazdanghe said:

This is just your total misunderstanding which in opposition to your whim Shia narration always have suggested women to learning read and/or write even learning religious matters by themselves.

[Ashvazdanghe]

1 hour ago, Northwest said:

Surely this would not have happened had the “Lady” been Fāṭima al-Zahrā? Wouldn’t the “Lady” have provided context, along with detail, to outline the true Faith, so that no relapse would have been possible? As I mentioned previously, none of the accounts I have seen indicates that the “Lady” contradicted Catholic dogma. The eyewitnesses were first “alerted” the future apparitions by an ”Angel” who taught them a Trinitarian and Eucharistic prayer. When the “Lady” appeared they silently repeated the formula and were not corrected.

Hi this respectfully this is  totally your misunderstanding which you want to deny Islam in any cost by relying on fabricated news also you always you are suffering from misunderstanding status of women in Shia Islam which you are repeating your nonsense likewise a broken record about status of women in shia Islam everytime . 

[Northwest]

2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

Hi this respectfully this is  totally your misunderstanding which you want to deny Islam in any cost by relying on fabricated news

@Ashvazdanghe I honestly don’t see how the information could have been fabricated. It could have been, but internal signs do not seem obvious to me. Lúcia herself even provided a description of the “Lady” to a sculptor who produced a statue based on her account—complete with an all-white, cross-bearing Rosary. Personally, I don’t see how Lúcia would be lying about details such as these in the mid-1940s. (The statue was completed in May 1947.) After all, had she contradicted the “Lady” in any way, she would have been going against God. Nor is there any evidence that the sculptor fudged any of the details; though he certainly could have, in the absence of data I can’t say.

Quote

Toward the end of the modeling, Lucy had said,"Although it has been a lot of work it is worthwhile to get it right." http://www.domcentral.org/library/McGlynn/Lucys.jpgTom wrote in his book: "It was indeed worthwhile not only to have arrived at a fairly accurate representation of the vision of Our Lady of Fatima but also to have achieved in the process a rather pleasing sculptural design. The composition was not mine at all. It was in every respect that of Irma Dores. The execution alone, and that under all of the specifications and corrections given me by Irma Dores, could be considered proper to my own efforts. I shall always think of this as our statue. The success which it has had cannot be explained by artistic skill of mine, but rather must be accounted for by the spiritual skill of the little child who saw Our Lady at Fatima."

^ I have not found anything to show that Lúcia contested the sculptor’s design at any point. In fact she and the sculptor appeared to have been in accord and worked in concert quite well:

Quote

She also directed the sculpting the famous statue of Our Lady of Fatima, with exceeding detail and reverence. While she was directing the sculpting of the statue, she also gave much insight and clarity to the messages of Fatima. Fr. Thomas McGlynn O.P., who sculpted the statue, recorded much of this in his book Vision of Fatima. ...

For the purpose of the statue, Fr. McGlynn asked on about this rosary and recalled it this way: “Irmã Dores could not say definitely that the rosary carried by our Lady was of five decades, rather than fifteen. But she did assert that the Rosary extended about to the knees when our Lady’s right hand was in the position of the June apparition. From this information and Irmã Dores’s identification of the size of the beads, it is a fair deduction that our Lady’s rosary must have been of five decades, for one of fifteen decades with that size bead would have gone far below her feet. Irmã Dores said that the rosary was all white, the cross included.”

—Source

Lúcia, then an adult, clearly indicates that her visions of the “Lady” included a cross...

Nor did Lúcia “correct” the men who transcribed her recollections about an “Angel” telling her and her companions to pray a Trinitarian, Eucharistic prayer. Multiple sources corroborate this, as I noted above. According to more than one source, moreover, she also didn’t recant her statement about the “Lady” telling her that the war would end on 13 October 1917, other than concluding in hindsight, years later, that she might have misinterpreted the “Lady’s” statements. In fact she admits that at the time she did believe the “Lady” told her just that. Both Lúcia herself and multiple Catholic sources confirm this; had she made this up otherwise-sympathetic sources would have been less likely to report it:

Quote

It was possibly because I was so anxious to remember the innumerable graces that I had to ask of Our Lady, that I was mistaken when I understood that the war would end on that very 13th. —Source, p. 183

Quote

After the careful questioning of Lucia, Dr. Formigão turned his attention to Jacinta in a separate interview. ... ”What did the Lady say?” “She said that we were to say the Rosary every day and that the war would end today.” “To whom did she say this?” “To Lucia and me. Francisco didn’t hear.” ...

There was only one unhappy collision between their testimony and apparent truth: both Lucia and Jacinta had quoted the Blessed Virgin as having said, on October 13th, “the war will end today.” The war had not ended that day, and the Mother of All Truth, as any Catholic theologian must believe the Virgin to be, is not capable of falsehood. ... As a responsible priest, Dr. Formigão was unable to shrug the discrepancy away. It gave him no rest, and consequently, six days later, on the 19th of the month, he returned to Aljustrel. ...

He began with Lucia: “On the 13th of this month our Lady said that the war would finish on the same day? What were the words she used?“ “She said: ‘The war will end today. You can expect the soldiers very shortly.’”

—Father John (João) de Marchi, The Immaculate Heart (New York: Farrar, Strauss and Young, 1952, pp. 154–5, 158–9)

Could there have been an ecclesiastical and/or secularist conspiracy to coerce Lúcia into misremembering or fabricating certain details? Certainly. But do the sources hint at this? I don’t think so.

2 hours ago, Ashvazdanghe said:

also you always you are suffering from misunderstanding status of women in Shia Islam which you are repeating your nonsense likewise a broken record about status of women in shia Islam everytime . 

Re: the status of women: I am not holding it against (Shia) Islam. If in fact women are not allowed to become literate, then I accept (Shia) Islam’s verdict on women’s education. There are narrations out there that cast some doubt on the matter. I am interested in this because I know that (post)modernity places a premium on feminism, even though there are plenty of reasons to question it. I am not going to dismiss something because it is at odds with modern views.