Best argument(s) for the existence of God.

[kewlDude]

What are your best arguments for the existence of God? Arguments laid-out properly along with their axioms would be highly appreciated, but, arguments with a regular taste are welcome too.

I know the regular ones like the argument from infinite regress or the argument from fine-tuning, et cetra. But, the thing is that I find these arguments lacking in depth; as if they are a sort of shruggish response. I don't find them rigorous. Like the argument from infinite regress just contradicts itself. It first states that all things must have a cause and then in contradiction to this assumption just brings-in the postulate that there is a being that has no beginning. Argument from fine-tuning is actually not a proof for the existence of God, but just a sort of probabilistic argument that there should be a God. Because, clearly there can be good arguments for the fine-tuning of the universe and that of life (evolution comes to mind - it has been experimentally verified in a lot of cases and then also has a ton of archeological evidence for it as well) that don't necessarily require God.

Hoping for good discussions.

Jazakallah khair. 

NOTE: I don't know if this is the best section for this question, but I am new here so, I am doing it anyway. Apologies if the section isn't the best one.

[313_Waiter]

 

[علوي]

On 8/22/2022 at 2:29 AM, kewlDude said:

What are your best arguments for the existence of God? Arguments laid-out properly along with their axioms would be highly appreciated, but, arguments with a regular taste are welcome too.

I know the regular ones like the argument from infinite regress or the argument from fine-tuning, et cetra. But, the thing is that I find these arguments lacking in depth; as if they are a sort of shruggish response. I don't find them rigorous. Like the argument from infinite regress just contradicts itself. It first states that all things must have a cause and then in contradiction to this assumption just brings-in the postulate that there is a being that has no beginning. Argument from fine-tuning is actually not a proof for the existence of God, but just a sort of probabilistic argument that there should be a God. Because, clearly there can be good arguments for the fine-tuning of the universe and that of life (evolution comes to mind - it has been experimentally verified in a lot of cases and then also has a ton of archeological evidence for it as well) that don't necessarily require God.

Hoping for good discussions.

Jazakallah khair. 

NOTE: I don't know if this is the best section for this question, but I am new here so, I am doing it anyway. Apologies if the section isn't the best one.

May Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you. We definitely need more discussion in this field.

There are many arguments which our Imams (a) have provided for us to disprove atheism, especially Imam al-Sadeq (عليه السلام) and Imam al-Reda (عليه السلام). 

Imam al-Sadeq's Reasoning and Debates: https://www.al-islam.org/life-imam-jafar-al-sadiq-baqir-shareef-al-qurashi/his-reasoning-and-debates

The following argument is an interesting one. Although it does not prove the existence of God, it proves that atheists are definitely wrong. They cannot possibly claim that God certainly does not exist because they simply don't have the knowledge to do so.

Quote

Then Imam (عليه السلام) told [the atheist]: “Do you know that earth has upper and lower parts?”

“Yes!” he replied.

“Did you enter inside?” The Imam (عليه السلام) asked.

“No!” He answered.

“Do you know what is inside?”

“No, but I guess that there is nothing underneath.”

“Guessing is the result of being unable to believe.”

“Did you go up to the sky?”

“No!”

“Do you know what there are?”

“No!”

“Have you approached the East and West? And did you see what is behind them?”

“No!”

“It is astonishing that you approach neither the East nor the West. You did not enter inside the earth and you did not go up toward the sky to know what there are, but you are still infidel in them. Is it acceptable for a wise to deny and reject what he does not know?”

There is also another argument made by the same Imam (عليه السلام) which later became to be known as Pascal's Wager:

Quote

Imam (عليه السلام) told one of those atheists:

“If the case is as you stated, [that Allah does not exist], (while it is not so), then all of us will be rescued. But if the case is as we stated, [that Allah does exist], then we will be rescued but you will not.”

The Imam's reasoning was perfect. Us theists are safe either way. If there is a God, we're safe, and if there's no God, we're safe. But when it comes to atheists, if there's no God, they're safe, but if there is a God, they're in trouble. 

It's a 50% win for the believers and a 100% loss for the atheists. 

There are many more arguments which I do not have the space to mention here. 

Again, may Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) bless you for your research and curiosity.

 أَفِي اللَّهِ شَكٌّ فَاطِرِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ

‘Is there any doubt about Allah, the originator of the heavens and the earth?! [14:10]

[Antimatter]

On 8/21/2022 at 9:29 PM, kewlDude said:

What are your best arguments for the existence of God?

My best argument for God is God & His words.

[Guest ezio313]

On 8/24/2022 at 12:47 PM, -Rejector- said:

The Imam's reasoning was perfect. Us theists are safe either way. If there is a God, we're safe, and if there's no God, we're safe. But when it comes to atheists, if there's no God, they're safe, but if there is a God, they're in trouble. 

This is not true, although the argument is intuitive, it only applies for the speaker's religion. So pascale's referring to Christians while imam is referring to Muslims..

[Guest Yasser]

I saw a video about math proving the existince of God I will post the link of that video in this thread if it's allowed.

 

 

[kewlDude]

Salam alaikum, people!

I have been having great deal of doubts regarding the truthfulness of the claims of there being a god. I have been deeply religious in the past, but now these (apparent) fallacies that one finds in the claim of there being a God are making it hard for me to be as religious as I used to be. Help me eliminate them.

There are a bunch of questions, so I'll just list them as points. Feel free to respond to any (improper) subset of them.

1. What's your best argument for the idea of existence of God?

2. If Adam ((عليه السلام)) and Hawwa ((عليه السلام)) were the first humans created by Allah, are all humans products of incest?

3. What validates Islam's violent nature? E.g: stoning to death for adulterers. Throwing off of tall buildings and burning in fire for homosexuals. How do we reconcile these violent parts with the all-just and all-caring nature of God?

4. Status of women. Why is the testimony of two women equal to the testimony of one man? 

5. How are things like istigatha allowed while polytheism is the greatest sin of all? And please don't try to equate it with asking someone for help. They are quite clearly two very different things. One is where you are acknowleding your fundamental flaws as a human being and/by asking someone else around you to help you, and the other is you calling upon someone who is not even there (unless you consider them omnipresent like God).

6. If God created us (as is the claim of Islam), and He also knows everything - including whether we are going to end-up in heaven or hell (because of the claim of God being omniscient) - isn't God setting the disbelievers up for failure? You'll say that He actually gave everyone free-will and they chose their end themselves, but that is not the case. God set the initial conditions Himself and even while setting those conditions up He knew that this person is going to go to hell if I set these parameters this way, still He chose to do so. He could have chosen to set them in a way that this person would've been 'good' and hence stayed out of hell-fire. This destroys the whole claim of God being 'all just'. How is He just at all? How do you solve this apparent inconsistency between the omniscient nature of God, his all-just nature and the free-will of humans?

8. Why are there no evidences for the miracles performed by the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) and the Imams? People near the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم) saw the splitting of the moon. Why did nobody else see it? Why is there no evidence on the surface of the moon now to verify this claim?

9. I suppose this is an extension of the 8th question. Why are there no verifiable/falsifiable claims given in the Quran or by the Prophet ((صلى الله عليه وآله وسلم).w.) or the Imams ((عليه السلام))?

10. Can God create a stone that he cannot lift? Does the answer to this question not show that the claim of omnipotence is fundamentally an illogical one? If not, how?

Last but not the least:

11. I have been told by some 'learned' folks that part of the struggle of this world is believing in Allah and Islam inspite of the lack of evidence - that if the evidence of the existence of God and everything related to Islam had been clear then the test of Allah wouldn't have been a real test. Couldn't God have given us clear proofs (don't refer to the quranic verses here talking about the proofs being clear already. There are only some very vague 'signs' right now. And they could be used to get to any conclusion basically. There is no finality to them.) and then asked us to believe? Because otherwise what is He rewarding? Blind faith? Because if we are to just accept something on blind faith then one could just as well become a Christian, a Buddhist, a Hindu, a Jew, a Satanist or whatever he wants out of utter and complete blind faith. 

Warning: Many people that I have engaged in conversations about these topics IRL have just claimed that I have bad intensions and that I am someone who doesn't want to change his mind. I am guaranteeing that I have the best of intentions - that I want to change my mind if/when proper reason and/or evidence presents itself. But, at the end of the day, I can only offer words, so if you think that I am just a troll or something, don't participate in this conversation - just don't come to me with some shallow accusations of ill intentions.

Thanks to everyone in advance for participating in this discussion.

[yasiin sadiq]

Energy and matter can't be created nor destroyed completely.  How do you think anything exists? Also if you take a pocket watch apart put it in a bag and shake it will never put it self together even with all the pieces. Same thing applies to us; you need someone to put it together intelligently to make it work. So even if every thing needed to make life simply exist it wouldn't come together by itself.

[PureExistence1]

On 10/23/2024 at 10:26 AM, kewlDude said:

2. If Adam ((عليه السلام)) and Hawwa ((عليه السلام)) were the first humans created by Allah, are all humans products of incest?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: There were other human-like creations here already that were interbred with. The difference between them and us is they weren't endowed with the soul of humans which is what separates us from other animals. 

Angels in Surah Al-Baqarah (2:30) were possibly referring to proto-humans, such as Homo erectus or other early hominins. This interpretation aligns with the evidence of early hominin behavior, which included violence and rudimentary social structures.

1. Behavioral Parallels: Fossil evidence suggests that species like Homo erectus engaged in hunting, tool-making, and possibly violent competition for resources. Such behaviors could resemble the "mischief" and "bloodshed" mentioned by the angels.

2. Physical Presence on Earth: Unlike jinn, who are described in Islamic theology as existing in a non-physical realm, early hominins were tangible beings inhabiting Earth. This makes them a plausible subject of angelic observation.

3. Evolutionary Timeline: The Quran does not explicitly describe pre-human species, but the existence of proto-humans like Australopithecus or Homo habilis millions of years ago suggests a long history of life before modern humans emerged.

While traditional Islamic interpretations often focus on jinn as prior inhabitants of Earth, this hypothesis offers a scientific lens to reconcile Quranic narratives with human evolutionary history.

Theres also the hadith by Imam Jaffer Sadiq(AS):

"Perhaps you think that God created only this world and that He did not create mankind except for you. Well, this is not so. Rather, He created thousands of Adams and thousands of worlds, and you are in the last of these worlds and from the last of these Adams."

This narration reflects a broader Shia perspective that the creation of Adam (عليه السلام) does not necessarily negate the existence of other creations or beings before him. It aligns with interpretations suggesting that Adam (عليه السلام) was a specific Khalifa (successor) for a particular phase of human existence, while previous cycles of creation may have existed before him. This idea is supported by the Quranic use of "Khalifa" in Surah Al-Baqarah (2:30), which implies succession.

Also, we have:

Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq (عليه السلام). A man reportedly asked the Imam, "Who was before Adam?" The Imam replied, "Adam." The man then asked, "And before that Adam?" The Imam responded, "Another Adam." This exchange continued, with the Imam affirming the existence of multiple Adams stretching back through time.

This narration reflects the Shia belief in cycles of creation, where each Adam represents a distinct phase or era of humanity. It emphasizes God's continuous creative power and suggests that the Adam mentioned in the Quran is specific to our current human lineage. This idea is also supported by traditions from Imam Ali (عليه السلام) and others, which speak of countless worlds and Adams before ours.

This explanation is backed by scholars such as shahid Murtaza Mutahari.

Shahid Murtaza Mutahhari was a prominent Shia scholar who addressed the topic of Adam and human origins in his writings. He explored the possibility of reconciling Islamic teachings with scientific findings, including human evolution and the existence of pre-Adamite beings. Mutahhari suggested that Adam (عليه السلام) could have been the first human endowed with a soul (ruh) and divine guidance, while other hominins may have existed alongside him.

In his book "Man and Universe", Mutahhari proposed that Adam's descendants might have mingled with these pre-existing beings to explain genetic diversity. While he did not explicitly endorse interbreeding with hominins, he left room for interpretations that align with scientific discoveries about human evolution. His approach reflects an openness to integrating Islamic theology with modern scientific understanding.

 Shahid Murtaza Mutahari is a significant Shia scholar who explored this idea in depth...His work provides a thoughtful and nuanced perspective on reconciling Islamic teachings with modern scientific findings, including the possibility of Adam's descendants interacting with pre-existing hominins.

Mutahhari’s openness to interpreting Quranic narratives in light of scientific evidence makes him a key figure in discussions about human origins within Shia Islam.