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In the Name of God بسم الله

The Narrations of Ahlul Bayt

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Posted (edited)

سلام

Do not learn from the narrations of "the people." 

أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ اَلْعَاصِمِيُّ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ اَلْحَسَنِ بْنِ فَضَّالٍ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَسْبَاطٍ عَنْ عَمِّهِ يَعْقُوبَ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اَللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ قَالَ: قُلْتُ لَهُ أَ رَأَيْتَ قَوْلَ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ: «لاٰ يَحِلُّ لَكَ اَلنِّسٰاءُ مِنْ بَعْدُ» فَقَالَ إِنَّمَا لَمْ يَحِلَّ لَهُ اَلنِّسَاءُ اَلَّتِي حَرَّمَ اَللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ فِي هَذِهِ اَلْآيَةِ: «حُرِّمَتْ عَلَيْكُمْ أُمَّهٰاتُكُمْ وَ بَنٰاتُكُمْ» فِي هَذِهِ اَلْآيَةِ كُلِّهَا وَ لَوْ كَانَ اَلْأَمْرُ كَمَا يَقُولُونَ لَكَانَ قَدْ أَحَلَّ لَكُمْ مَا لَمْ يُحِلَّ لَهُ هُوَ لِأَنَّ أَحَدَكُمْ يَسْتَبْدِلُ كُلَّمَا أَرَادَ وَ لَكِنْ لَيْسَ اَلْأَمْرُ كَمَا يَقُولُونَ أَحَادِيثُ آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى اَللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ خِلاَفُ أَحَادِيثِ اَلنَّاسِ إِنَّ اَللَّهَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ أَحَلَّ لِنَبِيِّهِ صَلَّى اَللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ أَنْ يَنْكِحَ مِنَ اَلنِّسَاءِ مَا أَرَادَ إِلاَّ مَا حَرَّمَ عَلَيْهِ فِي سُورَةِ اَلنِّسَاءِ فِي هَذِهِ اَلْآيَةِ .

الکافي ج ۵، ص ۳۹۱

When you read a non-Shia narration, always confirm and verify that a similar or identical narration exists in authentic Shia narrations from our Imams. 

Do not believe or accept, without double-checking, any narration outside of authentic Shia narrations. 

In our narrations, Imams commonly ask their followers for the opinions of the non-Shia or "the people", and almost always call them (the common people) liars and say something contrary to what the general people say, do, and believe.

Since such narrations are so common, I do believe that this is an intentional decision by our Imams to teach us our Deen by explicitly contradicting it with the common beliefs of the day, held by the non-Shia. 

So, I worry, when I see and hear the Shia, for the sake of unity, refer to non-Shia narrations and books. I worry, when I see the Shia minimize the theological and fiqhi differences between the Shia and non-Shia teachings. 

I worry when I hear people say, "Our differences are only political." 

 

And I say this not to be against unity and peaceful co-existence, but to protect our Deen and beliefs from corruption and dilution. 

Our Imams absolutely taught us to avoid conflicts and controversies, and to live peacefully with others; however, not at the expense of corrupting or diluting our faith. No cherry-picking. 

It must be added, to save our Deen and our lives, do Taqiyya, when necessary.

Edited by SoRoUsH
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Narrations discourages learning from narrations of the people (ahadith al-naas). Does it discourage from relying on authentic marfu ahadith found in sunni collections (which matches shia collection most of the time)?

I don't find much differences between shia fiqh and sunni fiqh.

I would say in most cases, shia fiqh matches sunni fiqh (their latest fiqh i.e. Hanbali & Shafi), their authentic marfu ahadith match with our authentic marfu ahadith.

Except taqiyah, mutah, masah of feet, etc, what else is exclusive to shia fiqh?

Except Imamah, what else is exclusive to shia ideology?

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, The Alchemist said:

Except taqiyah, mutah, masah of feet, etc, what else is exclusive to shia fiqh?

Except Imamah, what else is exclusive to shia ideology?

There are other differences in fiqh, in a variety of topics. I can't list them all. 

Imamah/wilayah is the pole that holds everything else together. So, it's a huge topic and is related to other theological topics. Again, I can't list them all. 

I can't list them because as I read and learn about them, I notice that they exist and there are many, but I don't write them down to keep a list.

Our Shia method of learning should rely only on what the Ahlul Bayt have taught. So, whether there are similarities or not, shouldn't misguide us to refer to and learn from other non-Shia sources regarding matters related to Deen. 

In other words, whatever is found outside of Shia sources cannot be trusted to have come from our Imams, and our Imams are the only source of knowledge. 

In short, we have to make sure whatever we learn and believe about our Deen come from the Ahlul Bayt.

Edited by SoRoUsH
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4 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

So, I worry, when I see and hear the Shia, for the sake of unity, refer to non-Shia narrations and books. I worry, when I see the Shia minimize the theological and fiqhi differences between the Shia and non-Shia teachings. 

Salam alaikom

I completely agree with you. The only reason I look at Sunni narrations is to prove them wrong. Otherwise, we have our own hadiths. Kitab al-Kafi, Bihar al-Anwar... Our narrations are enough for us. 

It's annoying when a Shi'i hears a hadeeth from a Shi'i book, and they ask for the Sunni reference. Like, our religion doesn't need to be proven by others. It's like if Sunnis only accepted narrations from Jews. It doesn't make sense.

We need to get this inferiority complex out of us.

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5 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

Since such narrations are so common, I do believe that this is an intentional decision by our Imams to teach us our Deen by explicitly contradicting it with the common beliefs of the day, held by the non-Shia. 

Salaam,

It was actually the other way around. Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) was the teacher of 3 of the 4 Sunni Imams and the 4th was a student of one of the 3 Imams. They have been to known to issue edicts contrary to what Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) would teach. This was at the behest of the rulers of course. So in fact the sunnis fiqh practiced today is a contradiction of the teachings of the AhlulBayt.

 

2 hours ago, The Alchemist said:

Except taqiyah, mutah, masah of feet, etc, what else is exclusive to shia fiqh?

Interestingly enough all 3 are mentioned in the Quran and never abrogated in the Quran but we digress.

Tammattu is another big one.
Belief in the adl-e-sahaba with no quranic proof is another.

There is a long list my young friend.

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1 hour ago, ShiaMan14 said:

It was actually the other way around. Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) was the teacher of 3 of the 4 Sunni Imams and the 4th was a student of one of the 3 Imams. They have been to known to issue edicts contrary to what Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) would teach.

Two points: 

1. The common beliefs of the non-Shia didn't come into existence only during or after Imam Sadiq's time. They were held by the non-Shia decades before Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) had the opportunity to educate people against the commonly held beliefs. Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) frequently asked his followers regarding the common non-Shia beliefs in order to explicitly reject and contradict them to his followers. These beliefs were already in place during the Imam's time. 

2. I don't deny that the Sunni imams may have also intentionally contradicted Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) due to their animosity and ignorance. 

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1 hour ago, SoRoUsH said:

Two points: 

1. The common beliefs of the non-Shia didn't come into existence only during or after Imam Sadiq's time. They were held by the non-Shia decades before Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) had the opportunity to educate people against the commonly held beliefs. Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) frequently asked his followers regarding the common non-Shia beliefs in order to explicitly reject and contradict them to his followers. These beliefs were already in place during the Imam's time. 

2. I don't deny that the Sunni imams may have also intentionally contradicted Imam Sadiq (عليه السلام) due to their animosity and ignorance. 

I was referring to fiqh issues.

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7 hours ago, SoRoUsH said:

سلام

Do not learn from the narrations of "the people." 

أَحْمَدُ بْنُ مُحَمَّدٍ اَلْعَاصِمِيُّ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ اَلْحَسَنِ بْنِ فَضَّالٍ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ أَسْبَاطٍ عَنْ عَمِّهِ يَعْقُوبَ بْنِ سَالِمٍ عَنْ أَبِي بَصِيرٍ عَنْ أَبِي عَبْدِ اَللَّهِ عَلَيْهِ اَلسَّلاَمُ قَالَ: قُلْتُ لَهُ أَ رَأَيْتَ قَوْلَ اَللَّهِ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ: «لاٰ يَحِلُّ لَكَ اَلنِّسٰاءُ مِنْ بَعْدُ» فَقَالَ إِنَّمَا لَمْ يَحِلَّ لَهُ اَلنِّسَاءُ اَلَّتِي حَرَّمَ اَللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ فِي هَذِهِ اَلْآيَةِ: «حُرِّمَتْ عَلَيْكُمْ أُمَّهٰاتُكُمْ وَ بَنٰاتُكُمْ» فِي هَذِهِ اَلْآيَةِ كُلِّهَا وَ لَوْ كَانَ اَلْأَمْرُ كَمَا يَقُولُونَ لَكَانَ قَدْ أَحَلَّ لَكُمْ مَا لَمْ يُحِلَّ لَهُ هُوَ لِأَنَّ أَحَدَكُمْ يَسْتَبْدِلُ كُلَّمَا أَرَادَ وَ لَكِنْ لَيْسَ اَلْأَمْرُ كَمَا يَقُولُونَ أَحَادِيثُ آلِ مُحَمَّدٍ صَلَّى اَللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ خِلاَفُ أَحَادِيثِ اَلنَّاسِ إِنَّ اَللَّهَ عَزَّ وَ جَلَّ أَحَلَّ لِنَبِيِّهِ صَلَّى اَللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَ آلِهِ أَنْ يَنْكِحَ مِنَ اَلنِّسَاءِ مَا أَرَادَ إِلاَّ مَا حَرَّمَ عَلَيْهِ فِي سُورَةِ اَلنِّسَاءِ فِي هَذِهِ اَلْآيَةِ .

الکافي ج ۵، ص ۳۹۱

When you read a non-Shia narration, always confirm and verify that a similar or identical narration exists in authentic Shia narrations from our Imams. 

Do not believe or accept, without double-checking, any narration outside of authentic Shia narrations. 

In our narrations, Imams commonly ask their followers for the opinions of the non-Shia or "the people", and almost always call them (the common people) liars and say something contrary to what the general people say, do, and believe.

Since such narrations are so common, I do believe that this is an intentional decision by our Imams to teach us our Deen by explicitly contradicting it with the common beliefs of the day, held by the non-Shia. 

So, I worry, when I see and hear the Shia, for the sake of unity, refer to non-Shia narrations and books. I worry, when I see the Shia minimize the theological and fiqhi differences between the Shia and non-Shia teachings. 

I worry when I hear people say, "Our differences are only political." 

 

And I say this not to be against unity and peaceful co-existence, but to protect our Deen and beliefs from corruption and dilution. 

Our Imams absolutely taught us to avoid conflicts and controversies, and to live peacefully with others; however, not at the expense of corrupting or diluting our faith. No cherry-picking. 

It must be added, to save our Deen and our lives, do Taqiyya, when necessary.

In order that you begin to have conversations with people, esp those who you disagree with, you need a starting point that is agreeable. (this is what it says in muslim) Then you can work from there. If you want to prove the prophethood of Mohamad ﷺ you cant start with "hey christians look what it says in the Quran".

Furthermore, It is intellectually weak to suggest that our hadith books do not have fabrications in them, just like Sunni Hadith. Both were used as political tools in their time to manipulate the people, because the powers that be could not change the Quran.

That said, we have a whole tradition from Ahl Albayt (s) that is completely missing from Sunni books. in 35 years with the prophet ﷺ they have like 40 hadith from imam Ali (عليه السلام), if thats not a sign of manipulation I dont know what it.

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11 minutes ago, Mohamad_ali said:

In order that you begin to have conversations with people, esp those who you disagree with, you need a starting point that is agreeable.

My initial post has nothing to do starting a conversation. It's about not learning our Deen or anything about it from anyone other than the Ahlul Bayt. 

12 minutes ago, Mohamad_ali said:

It is intellectually weak to suggest that our hadith books do not have fabrications in them, just like Sunni Hadith.

Nobody suggested this. 

 

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16 hours ago, Mohamad_ali said:

Furthermore, It is intellectually weak to suggest that our hadith books do not have fabrications in them, just like Sunni Hadith. Both were used as political tools in their time to manipulate the people, because the powers that be could not change the Quran.

As the brother already said nobody suggested this was the case. I am however curious about your second statement. How exactly were the kutub al arba'a political tools of their time? Which political powers were manipulating them?

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12 hours ago, Mahdavist said:

As the brother already said nobody suggested this was the case. I am however curious about your second statement. How exactly were the kutub al arba'a political tools of their time? Which political powers were manipulating them?

Salam, One of the primary drivers of change to the Sunna of Ras'ool Allah ﷺ is the political climate within Arabia and beyond. This can be seen the day after the prophet ﷺ left this world, there was a concerted effort to undermine the position of Ali (عليه السلام) not just politically (hes too young) but theologically (undervaluing his stature to just that of a companion). As the Islamic empire grew under different Caliphs it had its own political agenda and as a result that can be see in the Hadith that exist and dont exist among Sunni schools. From deletions to subtle changes to simple lies ... depending who was writing the book and whos Dynasty it was under a form of self editing or "fixing" took place.

This must have also been a factor in the philosophical and theological evolution of Shia Islam. As Shi'a theology and philosophy evolved they would have been met with the same currents of power that influenced others sects. And without being able to ref specific empires or powers, I think it is within the relms of reason to assume the same "self editing & fixing" happened within our books & customs.

I am wholeheartedly Shi'a, not just spiritually but intellectually. For me, Islam is not just blind belief & faith, its a deeper call to the spirit and intellect  to understand & experience Allah (سُبْحَانَهُ وَ تَعَالَى) message in every part of our lives. The question of Ali(عليه السلام) as the only rightful successor after The Prophet ﷺ is proven spiritually and intellectually without a shadow of a doubt for me. That said, within our creed cultural practices have been assimilated into "religious" doctrine. Historical works took on a life of their own in separating us from "them" to the extent that "stories" became evidence. 

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